And again a kris!

[Sajen]

Just win another kris by epray. :rolleyes:
I don't have a clue from where this blade; maybe Sulu? :shrug: As age I would guess end of 19th century?
Blade have silver inlays and until now I can't remember to have seen an "elephant trunk" design like this before.
This kris need a lot of restoration, new asang-asang and the bands of of the handle including the binding. Jose, you would like to do it? I don't plan to restore the broken crest of the pommel since the break seems to be old and patinated. What you think?

Your comments are very welcome,

Detlef

[VANDOO]

A VERY INTERESTING OLD KRIS. :) I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED IF SOME OF THESE DESIGNS MAY REPRESENT THE LARGE WHITE FISH EAGLES FOUND THRU-OUT THE REGION. ONE OF YOUR PICTURES SURE LOOKS LIKE AN EAGLE WITH ITS EYE AND NOSTRILS AND A FINE CURVED BEAK.
GIVEN THE IMPORTANCE PLACED ON LARGE BIRDS IN MANY SOCIETYS OVER THE WORLD I DO NOT SEE WHY THIS WOULD NOT APPLY TO THE ENTIRE AREA MALAYSIA, INDONESIA AND THE PHILIPPINES ESPECIALLY IN MORE ANCIENT TIMES. IN THE AMERICAS THE THUNDERBIRD, EAGLE AND RAVEN ARE IMPORTANT IN MANY LEGENDS AND TRIBAL LORE AND CEREMONIES. THE MAORI NO DOUBT HAVE MANY LEGENDS OF THE MOA AND OTHER BIRDS. THE DAYAK HAVE SPECIAL BELIEFS ABOUT THE HORNBILL AND ARGUS PHESANT AND NO DOUBT OTHER BIRDS. VARIOUS BIRDS ARE USED ON MASKS AND CARVEINGS IN AFRICA AND IN NEW GUINEA. MANKIND HAS ALWAYS LIKED TO DECK THEMSELVES OUT IN FEATHERS.
SO JUST TO STIR THE POT I WILL SAY IT REPRESENTS THE LARGE WHITE FISH EAGLE THAT ROAMS FREELY AMONG THE LANDS AND ISLANDS OF THAT PART OF THE WORLD, NOT THE ELEPHANT OR MAKARA :p
WHILE I AM STIRRING PERHAPS THIS FORM OF HANDLE REPRESENTS A EAGLE HEAD INSTEAD OF THE LOUD AND OFTEN OBNOXIOUS COCATOO WHICH TO MY KNOWLEGE HAS NO PLACE IN TRIBAL FOLKLORE IN THE PHILIPPINES. :D

[Battara]

You may be onto something Barry. I think that on Maguindanao kris the "eagle" is actually that, not the "elephant" look.

I agree that this is old, but that "eagle" is a form I have not seen much of. So I look at the inlaid okir on the blade, which looks either Maranao or Maguindanao.

[Spunjer]

in Mindanao and Sulu, Barry, it's the chicken. with supernatural power.

[Battara]

So Ron you think this is the sarimanok?


By the way, Detief, you have pm.........

[Spunjer]

not quite sure if it's chicken (sarimanok), or a sarinaga, jose. need to see the whole form... for instance, in this aprticular Maranao kris, we have a sarinaga.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13413
barry made a good point tho, regarding the importance of birds in the old belief. me and lorenz had an interesting discussion regarding this topic. perhaps he can chime in.


INSTEAD OF THE LOUD AND OFTEN OBNOXIOUS COCATOO WHICH TO MY KNOWLEGE HAS NO PLACE IN TRIBAL FOLKLORE IN THE PHILIPPINES.
you nailed this one right on the head, barry!



as far as the eagle tho: the philippines have the monkey eating eagle, or philippine eagle..

[Sajen]

A VERY INTERESTING OLD KRIS. :) I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED IF SOME OF THESE DESIGNS MAY REPRESENT THE LARGE WHITE FISH EAGLES FOUND THRU-OUT THE REGION. ONE OF YOUR PICTURES SURE LOOKS LIKE AN EAGLE WITH ITS EYE AND NOSTRILS AND A FINE CURVED BEAK.



Hello Barry,

interesting observation and thoughts. You mean pic. 9, correct?

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

You may be onto something Barry. I think that on Maguindanao kris the "eagle" is actually that, not the "elephant" look.

I agree that this is old, but that "eagle" is a form I have not seen much of. So I look at the inlaid okir on the blade, which looks either Maranao or Maguindanao.

Hello Jose,

thank you for comment and email! :) So I am not the only one who have a problem by the "eagle" katik (kembang kacang) area. ;)
Any thoughts about the age from this blade?

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Just noted that i have forgotten to upload one picture from the auction. This picture is very interesting since it seems that the tang is round.
Any thoughts?

[Maurice]

Just noted that i have forgotten to upload one picture from the auction. This picture is very interesting since it seems that the tang is round.
Any thoughts?

That's indeed interesting!
Ps. why are they always turning around the handle the wrong way when it had been loose? :shrug: :)

[Atlantia]

Hi Detlef.

I really like the way that the first 'luk' is so close to the ganga. It really makes the 'waves' look more natural and flowing.

I look forward to seeing waht you do with it.
Best
gene

[Timo Nieminen]

Ps. why are they always turning around the handle the wrong way when it had been loose? :shrug: :)

The ganja is so obviously a hand-guard, and the rest follows. Natural enough, I think, if one doesn't know about these weapons, and doesn't know where to look for information, and doesn't have a feel for the ergonomics, and the handle is unattached. But often I think a handle is removed and turned around; which I have less understanding of. "Here is something I know nothing about, but I know I know more about it than the previous owners, or the ignorant maker"?

[Sajen]

That's indeed interesting!
Ps. why are they always turning around the handle the wrong way when it had been loose? :shrug: :)

Hi Maurice,

yes, I think so. My interest is if it has to do with the age of the blade or the origin. :shrug:

For the second point I think that Timo give the answer.

Regards,

Detlef

[Maurice]

For the second point I think that Timo give the answer.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

Ofcourse, I was only joking as I crossed another recent thread with the handle the wrong way...

Regards,
Maurice

[Sajen]

Hi Detlef.

I really like the way that the first 'luk' is so close to the ganga. It really makes the 'waves' look more natural and flowing.

I look forward to seeing waht you do with it.
Best
gene

Hi Gene,

I think that this is one reason what let me bid. I really can't remember to have seen such a blade before.

I will keep you updated about the progress.

Best regards,

Detlef

[Battara]

Well it is not really round, but slightly squarish at the ganga.

That being said, I am wondering if this might not be early 1800s. Hard to pin down.

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

Nice score again!


Well it is not really round, but slightly squarish at the ganga.
I'm with Jose: This doesn't look like an archaic tang. Interesting variant though!


That being said, I am wondering if this might not be early 1800s. Hard to pin down.
Regarding the blade, I'd not place this much earlier than mid-19th c., more likely second half of 19th c. IMVHO.

I believe that the blade originated in Sulu and that the silver inlay was added later, possibly after the blade ended up on Mindanao. Possibly Maguindanao work?

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Hello Detlef,

Nice score again!

I believe that the blade originated in Sulu and that the silver inlay was added later, possibly after the blade ended up on Mindanao. Possibly Maguindanao work?


Hello Kai,

thank you. Very interesting suggestion. So I am maybe correct with my first feeling.

Regards,

Detlef

[kai]

Yes, I have seen several of this type - need to dig out pics. Usually this design is obscured by the lower asang-asang crossing the elongated gape...

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Agree, the missing asang-asang let look this part of the blade different.

I am curious to see your pictures, they will give also a clue how the asang-asang and the handle attachments have to look.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Have received the kris and have to assert that the handle is badly demaged so I have given it to my friend who is a very good wood restorer to fix the break and give back the handle the front beak while I decide to let the back beak like this. The tang is indeed squarish at the base. Now I will polish the blade.

Regards,

Detlef

[Battara]

Oh W :eek: W........I had no idea that the hilt was in such bad shape!

[Sajen]

Oh W :eek: W........I had no idea that the hilt was in such bad shape!

I also haven't thought like this, it wasn't to seen by the pictures from the seller. When I opened the copper wire from the hilt the hilt fall in two parts. So i bring the hilt to my friend to see what he will be able to manage. In two or three weeks I will know more.

[Sajen]

Just cleaned the blade and think that it was done before but very unprofessional maybe with some sort of grinding machine and now it is to seen that the inlays orginally going much more down to the tip of the blade but there only remains still to seen. :shrug: :(
Jose maybe know if this can be restored.

[Battara]

Ok some of the remaining engraving can be worked and replace the inlay. Areas where the grinder took out the engraved areas - no hope.

Sorry for the mixed news..... :shrug:

[Sajen]

Ok some of the remaining engraving can be worked and replace the inlay. Areas where the grinder took out the engraved areas - no hope.

Sorry for the mixed news..... :shrug:


Hi Jose,

no problem, thank you for open answer! :)

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

The wood work at the handle is finished.

[Battara]

Nice job. Much better and more stable than it was previously.

[Sajen]

Have received some pictures from Jose, he have finished the work at the handle. He is sure that this kris coming from Tawi-Tawi based on research he have done. Here two pictures of the excellent work he have done.
Now he want to replace the missing inlays and the kris will get a scabbard as well.

[Sajen]

And here two pictures upon he based his opinion that this kris is from Tawi-Tawi. One is from Stone and one from Ashoka arts.

[Battara]

Yes my opinion has changed since I have done more research. I now think this whole thing is from Tawi-Tawi island in the Sulu region.

[T. Koch]

Daaaaamn that's sick, Detlef!! What a great mission you've undertaken with this one! Love it, please take some more pics when you have it. :) This type of "elephant" is also my favorite of any found on all the kris/keris/sundang.

Jose, you are totally a wizard, that work looks amazing! With the caliber of stuff you hold though, you should seriously consider asking Santa for a new camera this year. ;) ...or maybe we should all chip in!? :D

Awesome you guys!

Best wishes, Thor

[Sajen]

Daaaaamn that's sick, Detlef!! What a great mission you've undertaken with this one! Love it, please take some more pics when you have it. :) This type of "elephant" is also my favorite of any found on all the kris/keris/sundang.


Thank you Thor! I only have had two options, either let it in this poor state like I have received it or let work this two excellent restorer on it.
Will post pictures when I have received it.

Regards,

Detlef

[ThePepperSkull]

WOW on the restoration. Unbelievably beautiful job!

[Battara]

Thank you folks. :D

I have yet to re-engrave and then re-inlay the missing silver, and then make a Tawi-Tawi scabbard.

Oh and I apologize about my horrible camera techniques. Trying to work on that. :o

[paolom]

Just cleaned the blade and think that it was done before but very unprofessional maybe with some sort of grinding machine and now it is to seen that the inlays orginally going much more down to the tip of the blade but there only remains still to seen. :shrug: :(
Jose maybe know if this can be restored.

hi Sajen, I'm new to the forum and I was looking today to this post.
the clean up of teh blede looks wonderful and I would like to ask you how did yoo achieve this result. Did you work the blade surface machanically (sandpaper, abrasive stone or similar) or chemically?
I always wonder if it is "right" to use sandpaper (of course by hand), even if of very fine grade (say 800), on old blades to get rid of the rust.
Thanks
Paolo

[Sajen]

hi Sajen, I'm new to the forum and I was looking today to this post.
the clean up of teh blede looks wonderful and I would like to ask you how did yoo achieve this result. Did you work the blade surface machanically (sandpaper, abrasive stone or similar) or chemically?
I always wonder if it is "right" to use sandpaper (of course by hand), even if of very fine grade (say 800), on old blades to get rid of the rust.
Thanks
Paolo

Hi Paolo,

first welcome to the forum! :) In this case I've used wet-sandpaper (here 600) in combination with WD40. According to circumstances of corrosion I use finer grade of sandpaper or steel-wool and this, like you write, of course by hand.

Regards,
Detlef

[paolom]

Thank you Sajen for the quick reply :)
Paolo

[Sajen]

Thank you Sajen for the quick reply :)
Paolo

You are welcome! :)

[Battara]

Ok I finally finished the silver inlay on the blade. Here are some pictures:

[Sajen]

Since nobody comment until now: Good work Jose! :) Special because the remaining grooves have been very thin.

Thank you again,
Detlef

[CharlesS]

I apologize for not complimenting it earlier. I think I just have become spoiled and always assuming the best from Battara!

It does, indeed, look great!

[Robert]

Another beautiful example of work masterfully executed by Jose. If you do not mind my asking, when doing this type of restoration work are you using dead soft sterling wire for the inlay or silver wire of a lower silver content like silver solder?

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

I apologize for not complimenting it earlier. I think I just have become spoiled and always assuming the best from Battara!

It does, indeed, look great!

Thank you Charles,
and I am aware that the compliment is mainly for Jose who bring this neglected blade again to life. :cool:
Here again the picture from the seller in the state I get this kris.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Damn José! Nice job...back from the brink of death... :)

[Battara]

Thank you folks. You are very kind.

Robert I use dead soft sterling silver wire. I don't like the look of silver solder, and it does not match what they did in effect or in authentic original technique.

[Robert]

Thank you Jose. I was only wondering because some of the silver inlay that I have seen has had that dead dull look to it like easy silver solder gets if left exposed to the air for too long. I imagine that it might have been a silver alloy of some type that had been used in the inlay on those pieces. Again, wonderful work.
Detlef, your good catch has now been transformed into a great one that I and I am sure many others as well would love to have for their own collections. Congratulations for being able to see past the damage, and for having this sword given the respect, care and attention that it was earlier denied. :cool:

Best,
Robert

[Battara]

I agree Robert that sometimes it maybe the alloy used. Also of course time and wear on soft materials like silver can make it dull as well.

[Sajen]

Detlef, your good catch has now been transformed into a great one that I and I am sure many others as well would love to have for their own collections. Congratulations for being able to see past the damage, and for having this sword given the respect, care and attention that it was earlier denied. :cool:

Thank you very much Robert! It would have been a shame to let this nice blade in the state like I have received it. A description of this kris will be: "An antique kris from possible Tawi-Tawi, original wooden handle is restored, silver fittings and baca-baca new created by Jose Albivois, silver inlays restored by the same person." ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

Finally here are pictures of the finished project.

Enjoy!

[Sajen]

Hello Jose,

great result and a big compliment from me!

Here some additional pictures.

[Sajen]

And here again a picture how I received this piece and after all restauration is done.

[Robert]

What a transformation Detlef. You can hardly believe that it is the same sword shown in the before photos. Wonderful work as always Jose, very impressive.

Best,
Robert

[Battara]

Thank you Robert. This was a long difficult project, but I always want to make sure that whatever I do, I do it right! :D

[Robert]

I always want to make sure that whatever I do, I do it right!

Jose, While everything on this is very nicely done the re-channeling of the blade (where needed) and the replacing of the missing silver inlay is absolutely exceptional work. Someone who had never seen this piece before and not known that the inlay was the mess you had to deal with would think it was all original to the blade and just in pristine condition. The photos really do not do justice to your skill and the level of quality you have achieved in one of the most difficult areas of restoration work. Anyone who has ever attempted the replacement of missing inlay in the traditional manner knows what I am speaking of. Again, my congratulations to you on a job most expertly done.

Best Regards,
Robert

[Sajen]

What a transformation Detlef. You can hardly believe that it is the same sword shown in the before photos.

Hello Robert,

it will get a place of honor at my wall! :cool: ;)

Regards,
Detlef