Figural !

[Rick]

Post them up ! :)

[Jean]

Three silver hilts from Bali (Bayu, Hanuman, Nawasari).
Regards
PS: Is there a way to reduce the size on the screen?

[David]

Thanks Jean. I love these silver Bali hilts.
Here are my meager offerings, some old, some contemporary, from Jawa, Bali and Madura.

[Jean]

Thank you David, I love especially your ivory piece with the bird head.
Attached are 3 rather small and peculiar ivory hilts said to originate from the Balinese community in Sumbawa but I can't guarantee it, any opinion?
Regards

[David]

Thanks Jean, though i'm pretty sure that's bone, probably from the latter side of the 20th Century. I found another quite similar one on the net that claimed itself as 1950s Madura, but who knows. Never quite been sure exactly where this one hails from, though it came on an old Jawa blade. :shrug:

[Jean]

Thanks Jean, though i'm pretty sure that's bone, probably from the latter side of the 20th Century. I found another quite similar one on the net that claimed itself as 1950s Madura, but who knows. Never quite been sure exactly where this one hails from, though it came on an old Jawa blade. :shrug:

David, I don't think that they are made from buffalo or whale bone or even antler although one was repaired at the peksi hole, but rather from dugong tusk? There is no cap on the top, no porous surface or pits inside or outside, and no sign of discolouring with time. I agree that they are probably about 20-30 years old only, and the piece depicting a priest was dyed. I rather doubt about the Madurese origin or they would be more common in Java; these pieces were purchased in Lombok (not by myself) from a reputed dealer.
Regards

[David]

David, I don't think that they are made from buffalo or whale bone or even antler although one was repaired at the peksi hole, but rather from dugong tusk? There is no cap on the top, no porous surface or pits inside or outside, and no sign of discolouring with time. I agree that they are probably about 20-30 years old only, and the piece depicting a priest was dyed. I rather doubt about the Madurese origin or they would be more common in Java; these pieces were purchased in Lombok (not by myself) from a reputed dealer.
Regards
Jean, i was not referring to your hilts at all, but to the comment you made about my "ivory bird head" piece. This one does have a top cap and is probably bone. :)

[Battara]

Ok here is my one and only ivory and gold Balinese hilt of Ravana.........

[Jean]

Jean, i was not referring to your hilts at all, but to the comment you made about my "ivory bird head" piece. This one does have a top cap and is probably bone. :)

David, sorry for the confusion! :D
And I finally show you a peculiar ivory hilt deemed to originate from South Sumatra.
Regards

[Sajen]

Ok here is my one and only ivory and gold Balinese hilt of Ravana.........

Beautiful hilt! :eek:

[Sajen]

Here a small Bali hilt from areng wood showing Membrayut.

[Sajen]

And here a old Bali hilt from Brass set with stones.

Someone know who it is?

[asomotif]

.

[David]

.
That's a nice hilt Willem, but it is not really "figural"... :)

[asomotif]

That's a nice hilt Willem, but it is not really "figural"... :)
Sorry, David.
The first 2 pictures of post nr. 3 probably got me confused ;)

[David]

Sorry, David.
The first 2 pictures of post nr. 3 probably got me confused ;)
I can see why they may have confused you, but while those two hilt are somewhat vegetal they both have rather clear figural faces. The second one you refer to is most definitely a buta (rakasa) hilt. It is rather old and worn, so perhaps you need to see the other angles to tell that it is truly a figural hilt form. Take a look at the images below... :shrug:

[dbhmgb]

This is my collection of one. Forgive the picture quality I took them just now on my iPhone.

[drdavid]

Rakasa in bone

[A. G. Maisey]

OK.

Beautiful, beautiful.

But beautiful is easy to do.

Now I'm gonna make you all really envious.

Who has anything as ugly as these?

[Marcokeris]

Two pics of my collection

[David]

Marco, we are doing "figural" hilts...i see a few in amongst you collection shots, but not very clearly. Maybe you could do a group shot of just the figural ones to give us a better look. :)

[David]

OK.

Beautiful, beautiful.

But beautiful is easy to do.

Now I'm gonna make you all really envious.

Who has anything as ugly as these?
Well Alan, the only ones i find REALLY ugly are the fimo ones. :)

[Rick]

I seem to remember those little beauties .
They are glass; no ?

[David]

I seem to remember those little beauties .
They are glass; no ?
Are they? Glass or fimo, they are still pretty ugly... :)
I do kinda like that second squatting wood one with the E.T. eyes though. Don't find that one ugly at all Alan...

[Sajen]

Three more.

[sirek]

@

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, they're glass.

Modern made in a little town near Pare in East Jawa --- I forget the name of it, its peculiar sort of name --- but the technique is an old, legitimate technique. The beads made in the same way go back to before Majapahit, often used as burial goods, and the genuine Majapahit pelangi beads, some of which are quite big, are pretty valuable.

I'm sorry I didn't come up your standard of ugliness David, I did try. I'll have a look and see if I might have something uglier, but I don't think I do.

Yeah, the ET one is peculiar, I can't ID what it is supposed to be or where its from, and it really does look ETish

[Gustav]

Yeah, they're glass.


Here is the original thread about them:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9019&highlight=dewi

[A. G. Maisey]

his thread seems to have gone very quiet, which I find strange, because I'm sure there are a lot more figural hilts out there than we have already seen posted.

Here are a few more, hopefully somebody else might add a few more.

[Battara]

Ok here is my one and only ivory and gold Balinese hilt of Ravana.........
Sorry for not responding - thank you.

Also I did the gold mounts myself (hope they are not too aweful.... :o )

[Battara]

Did not realize there was such a variation of hilts......

[Sajen]

Sorry for not responding - thank you.

Also I did the gold mounts myself (hope they are not too aweful.... :o )

Haven't realised that it isn't original! :rolleyes:

[Jean]

Three peculiar Javanese hilts in figural style.
Regards

[Battara]

That last one - is that ivory and wood?

[David]

That last one - is that ivory and wood?
Looks that way to me Rick. A more figural version of the "wadon" style of hilt that some folks call "durga". Very cool hilt whatever you call it... :)

[Jean]

That last one - is that ivory and wood?

Yes, correct, ivory inserts on wood, the piece has some age.
And I attach 3 more javanese figural hilts including the "Durga" style mentioned by David.
Regards

[Sajen]

Just have bought this very fine carved ivory handle from the North coast of Java or Madura (picture from the ebay listing). Will post by time more handles of this type.

BTW, does someone know why ivory handles from North Java often are blackened?

[Jean]

BTW, does someone know why ivory handles from North Java often are blackened?

I have no idea in your case but I have one blackened tapak kuda hilt from Central Sumatra made from antler or bone (apparently not resin from the "dentist" drilling test of the peksi). In my case I think that the dying was made because these hilts are traditionally black but why was it not made from black buffalo horn? May be the former owner did not like the original white colour? :confused:

[Gustav]

Just have bought this very fine carved ivory handle from the North coast of Java or Madura (picture from the ebay listing). Will post by time more handles of this type.

BTW, does someone know why ivory handles from North Java often are blackened?

Sajen, I see some suspicious little bulbs on this hilt. I hope I am wrong.

[A. G. Maisey]

Sajen, I could always be wrong, but I must say that I have never seen an ivory hilt that was blackened as heavily as this one is; the pattern of this hilt is a very prevalent one for recently made hilts. My gut feeling is that you will find it to be made of some substance other than ivory, but there may be a small ring of ivory glued to the base of the hilt.

It is an unfortunate fact of life that when dealing with sellers in Indonesia things are very often not what they are presented to be. You may not have bought this directly from Indonesia, but somebody did.

Let me tell you about a silver gilt hilt that I bought many years ago in Malang.

Absolutely beautiful hilt, old style gilt, superb workmanship, and a price to match, but it was gilded and thus just about impossible to test to see if it was silver or not. Luckily there were a couple of high spots on the face where the gilt had worn off and the silver was exposed, so I took it to a jeweller in a nearby stall and had these spots tested. They tested positive as silver. I bought this beautiful hilt and paid silver price for it --- there is a big difference in price between silver objects and copper or brass objects.

It took me several years before I discovered that the exposed high spots on the face of this hilt were tiny specks of silver that had been added to the copper base of the hilt, for the express purpose of being exposed to allow a test for silver.

I've been flim-flammed many times in Indonesia --- and a few times in other places too. Its called "education".

[Sajen]

Dear Jean, Gustav and Alan,

thank you for respond and opinion. I agree with Alan, I am as well never have seen a such blackened ivory hilt before but all I have seen before were very worn. And agree with Gustav and Alan that it could good be possible that it is an other material as I have hoped to see. :shrug: But as you know I like to gamble by ebay. :D And the price I have paid (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-VINTAGE-BALI-JAVA-INDONESIAN-KRIS-RITUAL-SWORD-DAGGAR-WITH-SHEATH-/271107835214?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&nma=true&si=IZEXL3vVmha4Pi2i6j5McQI2YMQ%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc) was one which is ok for a gamble. We will see if it was winning gamble when I have received it. :)

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Detlef, $100 is not much to gamble. No matter what the hilt is made from, the total object is probably worth what you paid for it. I used to buy similar objects at a similar level many years ago, its probably a good learning exercise, but its empirical learning. I'm certain that if you remain interested in keris, that sooner or later you will find that your money is better protected and your collecting experience enhanced by buying from slightly more reliable sources than ebay. Living in Europe as you do, I feel that you would find many available sources if you put in the time to look.

[Sajen]

Yes Detlef, $100 is not much to gamble. No matter what the hilt is made from, the total object is probably worth what you paid for it. I used to buy similar objects at a similar level many years ago, its probably a good learning exercise, but its empirical learning. I'm certain that if you remain interested in keris, that sooner or later you will find that your money is better protected and your collecting experience enhanced by buying from slightly more reliable sources than ebay. Living in Europe as you do, I feel that you would find many available sources if you put in the time to look.


You're correct Alan, I have used such sources and still use them but on the other hand I've got keris & keris handles from ebay by prices I would have paid a lot more by this sources, remember this: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11844&highlight=tajong or this: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11563&highlight=donoriko.


Best regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I guess you're right Detlef. I sometimes tend to forget that not everybody has either the same taste, nor access to the same sources that I have.

My apologies for questioning your wisdom.

[David]

I still gamble now and then on eBay. I would say i've "won" that gamble more than lost. This figurative hilt and keris were an eBay purchase at a superb deal. No sheath :-( , which probably kept the bidders away.

[David]

I should note that José added that moonstone ring on the hilt. This sliver piece was missing when i purchased it.

[Sajen]

Sajen, I see some suspicious little bulbs on this hilt. I hope I am wrong.

Very good eye Gustav, you have been correct. Learning lesson! :D

[David]

Very good eye Gustav, you have been correct. Learning lesson! :D
hmmm....so is it a composite casting... :confused:

[Sajen]

hmmm....so is it a composite casting... :confused:

Yes, David, indeed. But have luck, the sheath coming with the keris fit very well with a single keris blade I have. :)

Regards,

Detlef

[Marcokeris]

Banjarmasin

[Marcokeris]

Java

[David]

These last 2 postings show nice hilts Marco, but they don't quite meet the definition of "figural". Certainly they have features that are meant, in their abstract way, to hint at human or animal form, but to my mind these are abstract hilts attempting to disguise the figural form probably due to Islamic restriction of such depiction.

[A. G. Maisey]

No comment.

[Sajen]

Some more.

[Sajen]

more

[Marcokeris]

Figures

[Marcokeris]

...

[Marcokeris]

...

[Marcokeris]

..

[Jean]

Hello Marco,
Striking & nice pictures, thanks!
Regards

[asomotif]

Nice ivory hilt from museum Nusantara in Delft.
The museum will close next week 6th january due to lack of funds... :( :shrug:

[asomotif]

Bali, newly made.

[Rick]

Nice . :)
I like these polychrome handles .

[asian-keris]

Like

[Marcokeris]

I like too :) :)

[Rick]

Me 3. :)

[asomotif]

I like 4 delayed x-mas present.

ps do you have more pictures / back / side ?

[David]

I'll jump on the bandwagon...yowzah!!! :D

[Battara]

A little unusual - great example!

[T. Koch]

I hope I don't annoy anyone by posting this guy of David's again:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=95818&stc=1

I just think it is the coolest keris hilt I've ever seen! I don't know what it is about him, but he just set's something off in me and makes me smile at the same time. I mean, he looks like a shark with a handlebar mustache for gods sake!! :D

Rick could you tell us something about it - new, old? Do you know who he's meant to represent?

The Hanuman in horn just above is also really nice and crisply carved IMO. You're very lucky to have these guys with you.


Best wishes and may this thread live on forever, - Thor

[David]

Well, no annoyance for me Thor...he makes me smile as well. This hilt is contemporary in manufacture, but i have seen at least one genuinely old version of this character in almost the exact same pose so i'd say it has a traditional basis. Not sure exactly which wayang character this is or if it is just meant to reference the wayang in general.
I am not sure which hanuman in horn you are referring to. Are you sure it is hanuman and are you sure it is horn? :shrug:

[T. Koch]

Mmm, no and no. :D I guess it could also be stained ivory or dark wood although it seems the material looks really hard. In regards to the deity/figure, I don't own any hilts myself, so just trying to slowly learn from you guys here on the forum. :) It's this fellow I mean: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=95812&stc=1

Thank you for the info on the shark guy - I don't suppose you know the name of the artist? Someone like the shark guy could easily start a collection of hilts with me. Although I guess that's another slippery slope, and I am trying sooo hard to be good and focus my collecting. :D


All the best, - Thor

[David]

It's this fellow I mean: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=95812&stc=1
So sorry to fool you there Thor, but this hilt is made of an ebony wood. The little insets are ivory though. :)

[rasjid]

Not sure about this one. The handle is wrapping like Jawa Demam but looks like a snake? Komodo or something the carver's thinking?

:)

[asomotif]

picture taken last week at the Gemeente Museum Den Haag.

[ganjawulung]

Picture taken at Ganjawulung's Collection...

[Gavin Nugent]

One of my favorites.

Gavin

[Rick]

Almost reminds one of the Green Man from another culture .

[ganjawulung]

Some cirebonese hilts with 'buta bajang' motives and also 'pulungan'...

Ganjawulung Collection

[ganjawulung]

Some cirebonese 'buta bajang' hilt and Rajamala of Tegal, Central Java....

Ganjawulung Collection

[A. G. Maisey]

Ex Puri Badung

[Jean]

Some cirebonese hilts with 'buta bajang' motives and also 'pulungan'...

Ganjawulung Collection

Dear Ganja,
What is the difference betwen the 2 types, I observe that some specimens wear a sort of crown and Garuda mungkur in the back, is it what makes the difference?
Regards

[Jean]

Ex Puri Badung

What a masterpiece, congratulations!
Regards

[Gavin Nugent]

Almost reminds one of the Green Man from another culture .

Vanna Ghiringhelli notes this fella as an unknown demon....can anyone quanitify this "Unknown Deman"

Gavin

[VVV]

Most probably it was supposed to be a Yaksha.
A better reference work for old keris and their original symbolism (as an alternative to the contemporary interpretations) is Kris disk by the late Karsten Sejr Jensen.

Michael

[David]

Most probably it was supposed to be a Yaksha.
A better reference work for old keris and their original symbolism (as an alternative to the contemporary interpretations) is Kris disk by the late Karsten Sejr Jensen.

Michael
I don't own the Kris Disk, but would love to know more about Jensen's determining factors for this attribution. Was it purely because the figures are vegetal in form or were there other clues he followed that lead to this theory? Yaksha as depicted in surrounding cultures do not appear in such abstracted form, though in Thailand they do often have green faces, probably as a hint to their nature-spirit qualities.

[A. G. Maisey]

In respect of the hilt shown by Gavin in Post # 77.

Mention has been made of the opinions of Vanna Ghiringhelli and of Karsten Sejr. Jensen, and it is true that the opinions of both these people must be given due consideration.

Vanna Ghiringhelli is a noted academic who has a very firm foundation in Hindu culture, certainly more mainstream than specifically early Javanese, but her depth of understanding of this mainstream permits an informed analysis of the streams which have their source in the mainstream.

Karsten Sejr. Jensen was a dedicated researcher with a very high level of interest in the keris, and this permitted him to form some very interesting ideas which must be given careful consideration. However, as he himself states:-

"--- Therefore the interpretations, that I give them, are only possible interpretations and there may be many layers under and above the meaning that I indicate.---"


My own opinion is that at this remove it is a total impossibility to affix any specific identity to any of these figural interpretations found in keris hilts.

Indeed, even at the time when one of these hilts was carved, no person apart from the client and/or the carver may have known the true identity of the figure that was represented in the carving.

Why might this be so?

Because the figure may have been intended to represent an ancestor of the client personified as a yaksa (Jav.). The yaksa itself may have been intended as the personification of a deity.

In Javanese thought, most especially early Javanese thought, when a person passed to the other world, that person's earthly spirit could be absorbed into the unseen essence of a being from the Unseen World. Rulers and other great notables were often represented after death as deities, for example Gajah Mada as Ganesha.

Deities could present themselves as Yaksas, Lord Siwa himself was not averse to assuming the form of a yaksa when it served his purpose.

So, even though a figure may be in the form of a yaksa, that does not necessarily mean that it was intended as a simple representation of a yaksa, but may have been intended as one of the higher deities which had absorbed the spirit of an ancestor.

The client of course knew who the figural representation was intended to be, as in early days did the artist who carved the figure, but nobody else was likely to know.

One does not gather power by providing gratuitous information.
This is, and seems to always have been, a basic element of the Javanese world.

Thus if one commissions a representation of a yaksa that in fact is intended as a vessel for the spirit of an ancestor, is it wise to let anybody else know the true nature of the representation?

In light of the above, I think that I am in the Vanna Ghiringhelli camp:- "unknown".

[VVV]

I don't own the Kris Disk, but would love to know more about Jensen's determining factors for this attribution. Was it purely because the figures are vegetal in form or were there other clues he followed that lead to this theory? Yaksha as depicted in surrounding cultures do not appear in such abstracted form, though in Thailand they do often have green faces, probably as a hint to their nature-spirit qualities.

David, I didn't write that Jensen state it is a yaksha (he usually calls it "a raksasa prince").
You really should try to get hold of the Kris disk. Besides being like a Stone or van Zonnenveld for the keris world regarding that it compiles most of what has been written about it outside Indonesia, it also is the largest and best picture source for complete "historic" keris (complete=the dress is also old and have not been changed according to the present fashion).

Yes, Alan, a yaksha is not always a yaksha and, like the quote from Jensen, there are always several layers in an interpretation. But that is quite obvious for all outsider interpretations (and quite often even the insiders themselves are not aware of all the symbolism and meanings in a motif they use).
I prefer to use the short answer in a forum like this but I am aware that we are living in a postmodern era where nothing is neither black or white nor is there only one correct answer to any question...

Michael

[Sajen]

One of my favorites.

Gavin

Hello Gavin,

here the brother of your hilt! I personally would call it a putra satu hilt in abstract form. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm in complete agreement with you Michael, but I prefer to take the concepts of "truth", "fact", and "accuracy", just a little further.

There was an economist named Fritz Machlup. He was an Austrian, but he migrated to America before WWII.

He came up with the proposal that there was a "half-life of knowledge", this was given as the length of time that had to pass before half of the knowledge in any specific field was either shown to be untrue or was replaced with a more up-to-date version.

As time goes by the residual half of knowledge that remains from the initial degradation of the field becomes less and less so that eventually nothing, or perhaps almost nothing is left that can still be considered to be true.

Machlup died some time in the early 1960's, just about the time I was being taught about his ideas.

Not long ago a mathematician named Sam Arbesman published a book called "The Half-Life of Facts". Arbesman has demonstrated that the ideas that we accept as "facts" are slowly being replaced, and although we can never guess when any particular "fact" is going to go under, we can predict when half the facts in any specific field are going become out-dated.

An idea not dissimilar to Machlup's idea.

The accepted "facts" in any field have differing lives. Half the facts in the field of maths will be revised/replaced in about 9 or 10 years. Half the facts in the field of physics are good for about 13 years. And so on.

Now, with the keris, we're not dealing with perceived "facts" for most of the time, rather, we are dealing with opinions and beliefs.

I'm not at all sure how we can estimate the half-life of keris opinions, but I guess somebody who is much better at math than I am could come up with a formula. However, its probably not all that important how long our opinions and beliefs resist change, what is important is that we recognise that those opinions and beliefs will change, and that at some time in the future much, or most, of what we accept as "fact" today will have been demonstrated to be incorrect.

For this reason, I would most humbly suggest that none of us should become so entwined in our own beliefs and opinions that we are unable to give consideration to the beliefs and opinions of others.

[Sajen]

Three more Ramajala Tegal hilts from my collection.

[VVV]

Yes, Alan, this kind of postmodern criticism of the "one-truth-Enlightenment" has been going on much longer than 50 years now in the academia. Machlup and Arbesman are just two out of 100's.
However, for a discussion on a forum like this, and to be able to handle other "non-academic" everyday situations, I find it quite boring and nonconstructive to force all participants to write long disclaimers each time they state something. If it would be in an academic situation the accepted way would be first to have a method and theory discussion about these factors of skepticism and uncertainty to show that you are aware of them. And after that you would be allowed to state something and argue that it is valuable current knowledge. And then in the end you could write that you hope someone in the future will be able to add-on new knowledge and perhaps prove that you were wrong (like, for instance, Freud did).

If the moderators are afraid that the participants of this forum are not aware of this philosophical discussion, maybe they (David ;)) can write some kind of disclaimer for us all so we can keep the discussion going in each thread?

I think a statement like: "Most probably it was supposed to be a Yaksha" , which both contributes to the discussion but at the same time accepts the existence of alternative interpretations, is better suited to answer the level of a non-academic forum like this.

Michael

[David]

David, I didn't write that Jensen state it is a yaksha (he usually calls it "a raksasa prince").
You really should try to get hold of the Kris disk. Besides being like a Stone or van Zonnenveld for the keris world regarding that it compiles most of what has been written about it outside Indonesia, it also is the largest and best picture source for complete "historic" keris (complete=the dress is also old and have not been changed according to the present fashion).
Thanks for your response Michael. Please forgive my inaccurate assumption, but since you stated it was most probably a yaksha followed immediately by a praise of the Kris Disk as a better reference for original symbolism it seemed to me you were implying that was the source of your information. Hopefully you can see why i would make such a connection. I have never heard or read this identification for this hilt form before and was hoping for some further supportive reference points. Perhaps you could share with us then whether you heard or read this suggested elsewhere or if it is a theory of your own making.
As for the Kris Disk, i have indeed been looking for a reasonably priced copy for some time. :)

[VVV]

Sorry David, I do understand now why you read it that way.
Somehow I remembered that we have had this discussion before and found this thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5904) from 2008.
Since then I am leaning more and more towards that most of the hilts attributed as rakshasas are instead yakshas, based on their usually more benevolent character and to their function as guardians of places in the nature (genii loci). In my 2009 study of 138 Malaysian incantations collected during the colonial times, different kind of guardian spirits clearly dominates as receivers of the spells (58% followed by "Satanic" (pure evil) characters 17%). They were "dressed" in either Islamic, Hindu or even pre-Hindu clothes. Very much resembling how saints were/are used in Roman-Catholic countries.

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Michael, of course you are correct:- Machlup and Arbesman are only the tip of the iceberg, but those two happen to be a very prominent and well-known tip. It has been obvious from probably the beginning of mankind's learning curve that the cat can be skinned in more ways than one.

Again I agree with you that since this Forum is not academically based, and additionally because many of our contributors do not have English as a native language, it is perhaps best to keep responses and new information to a simple, straight-forward, basic level, and this is precisely what I have been trying to do for the entire time I have been involved in discussions here.

However, I do believe that there is a difference between simplicity and insufficient information to permit understanding of base concepts, but this mindset makes it reasonably difficult to determine a point at which to draw the line between "too much", and "not enough".

For example, it is easy for the modern day western collector to differentiate between the raksasa and yaksa --- I'll use Javanese spellings, since we are discussing Jawa.

The raksasa is big, ugly and hairy, and he's a baddy.

The yaksa is a nature spirit somewhat delicate, and essentially a goody.

Thus, if we are involved in a discussion that is centered around the beliefs and terminology of modern day western collectors it is probably more than enough to restrict ourselves to this level of terminology.

However, when a question is raised that seeks to find the specific identity of one of these artificially created groups, it becomes more than a little difficult to provide an explanation in the absence of sufficient information to understand that explanation.

If we stop with generic terms, as understood by collectors outside Javanese society, yaksa & raksasa are probably enough, but then when we get to trying to understand the differences between these two generic groups we can be faced with a problem:- should we apply our own construction to the understanding, should we apply the understanding of present day Jawa, or should we seek to apply the understanding of the people responsible for the production of the artifact that we are attempting to understand?

My present belief is that the nature of the question raised dictates the nature of the answer given. I am open to opposing argument to this position, as my own ideas do sometimes vacillate between trying to provide reasonably complete answers, and answers just sufficient to extinguish the question.

This matter of raksasa and yaksa is a good example of what I mean.

Many of the hilts that have these abstracted figural forms would have been produced by people who spoke Old Javanese.
( Modern Javanese seems to be accepted as having begun its development in the courts of Central Jawa following the establishment of the Second Kingdom of Mataram, roughly some time around 1600)

In Old Javanese the understanding of "yaksa" was that it referred to a group of creatures who were half-gods dedicated to the service of (principally) Wisnu, however, sometimes they were found in the company of dangerous creatures such as the pisaca, a group that included the setan, raksasa, iblis, jin, and other evil and dangerous creatures.

In Old Javanese thought the raksasa was an evil, dangerous demon.

So in Old Javanese thought, the yaksa was usually, but not necessarily, a goody, but in reality the yaksa could also be a bhuta.
A bhuta is generally taken to refer to an evil spirit that haunts lonely places, but it can also mean simply a giant, and in Old Javanese it can carry a wider range of meaning, dependent upon context.

In present day Jawa Krama the yaksa is thought of as a member of the same group of creatures as the daitya, raksasa and asura. In Old Javanese thought the Asuras were enemies of the Dewas, the Daityas were a sub-clan of giants belonging to the larger group of Asuras.

Now, what I have written above is in my view the absolute basic, simplistic level of info needed for a layman to understand the nature of a yaksa and the nature of a raksasa. When we have this most basic level of understanding it becomes clear that to try to differentiate between the yaksa and the raksasa becomes somewhat difficult. Most particularly so if we are trying to understand an abstracted figural carving made by a person who saw the world in Old Javanese terms.

For a long time the world of collectors outside Jawa referred to these figural hilts as "raksasa".
Not particularly accurate, not making any attempt to understand the form in terms of the creators, but sufficient so that all other collectors outside Jawa knew what was being talked about.

We have at least two choices:- we stay with the terminology of yesterday, or we attempt to expand our understanding to allow us to use a perhaps more accurate terminology.

One route is for the collector, the other route is for the student.

[VVV]

Thanks Alan for your interesting clarification of the difference between a raksasa and yaksa in "old Jawa". I buy that your spelling is more appropriate in this Javanese case and will adopt it from now.

To facilitate the reading of this thread I would also like to include the quote I referred to above and used in the 2008 thread about yaksa according to Indian mythology:

"A Yaksha, translated as a ghost [bhuta in Sanskrit] in Dictionary of Hindu Lore and Legend, are connected to the creative forces of a deity.

'It eventually became a collective noun for mysterious semi-divine beeings, who can assume any form at will, living in forests, trees, caves and jungles and play a prominent role in Indian mythology and folklore. They were said to inhabit the sacred tree in each village and to protect the prosperity and well-being of the community.'

It also says that some of the yakshas

'...were assimilated into main deites, such as Shiva, as exemplified by his epithet Virupaksha, which originally was the name of a yaksha.'"

To summarize, and to answer David's question, the three main arguments in favor of yaksas over raksasas as a probable interpretation of these hilts (based on my present understanding and presented in a simplistic but hopefully clear way) are:

- a yaksa is a genius loci (local ruler/guardian spirit of places in nature), which according to my studies are the most often used metaphysical beings for everyday and individual religious situations. Instead of going directly to (and perhaps disturbing) the main guy people prefer to use geographically closer and (enough) powerful intermediaries as a start. "Demons", like the raksasas, are much less used for these matters, especially if you are not a religious specialist.
- a yaksa is more often benevolent to human beings than a raksasa. Like most other metaphysical beings this does not mean that they are always benevolent or "good" from the human perspective.
- the floral and vegetative motifs on the hilt might be an indication that the depicted being is (or was once before Islamic times) some kind of nature spirit (like a yaksa).

For each individual hilt I also fully agree with Alan that it might, and most probably, have several layers of other (personal for both the maker and owner) meanings, too. This also seems to be a quite universal pattern found within both artwork and religious symbolism (like for Christians the religious statues resembling Greco-Roman gods or a local human ruler, saints depicted in local and contemporary fashion, the Black Madonna, the Virgin of Guadalupe etc.).

Michael

[VVV]

For those of you who don't have the Kris disk I also attach three pages (out of several) discussing the raksasa/yaksa symbolism of the quite early figural Banten-hilts found in old European collections.

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for that quote Michael. It is always useful to go back to source and learn how things were understood before they were taken to Jawa and became part of the Javanese-Hindu understanding.

Of course, when we take that step and move outside the Javanese understandings, into the mainstream Hindu understandings, we really should take the additional step and look at the understandings in Hindu epic literature, and the historical foundations as well as the mythological understandings. When all these things are put together we obtain a more complete and clearer understanding of what happened not only in the mainstream, but more importantly for us, what happened in Jawa.

But as you have so correctly pointed out:- we are not in academia.

There is sometimes a degree of confusion between the word "bhuta" and the word "bhoot" (bhut).
Bhuta might refer to a ghost, but can also refer to an imp or a goblin or some other like creature, but a bhoot (bhut) is always a ghost of a type that cannot be exorcised.

These bhuts are real bad news.
If you happen to see a beautiful woman hitching a ride at night, be sure to check that her feet don't face backwards. If the feet are on back to front, drive on by just as fast as you can --- she's a bhut.
But if you're not quick enough, and she actually gets in your car, its best to have a bit burnt turmeric on hand:- throw that in her face and she'll bail out real quick.
You gotta be prepared with these creatures, just can't tell where or when they might strike.

My grandmother used to put a lot of faith in garlic --- but that's another story and another culture.

[Jean]

Hello Gavin,

here the brother of your hilt! I personally would call it a putra satu hilt in abstract form. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

I am with Sajen, these pieces apparently originate from East Java/ Madura and are locally called putrasatu (prince?), I show an older cousin....
Regards :)

[VVV]

A beautiful hilt, Jean.
Yes, we all know about the term putrasatu, but that is what Alan referred to as "the understanding of present day Jawa". We were trying to go a bit deeper into the symbolism of this, and the related, hilts. Even if it is not possible to find a definitive answer it is still interesting to give it a joint try and perhaps find some probable clues.

Michael

[Jean]

Thank you Michael and Alan for your very educative posts.
I am now showing another common specimen of putra satu hilt with peculiar features (sort of mask on the face, shield under the left elbow, and left leg looking like a fish tail?). Any interpretation for it?

Regards :)

[A. G. Maisey]

I've got a thing about names, and for that matter, about language in general.

Words are supposed to convey ideas:- we get the words wrong, the ideas get deformed, twisted and those ideas no longer move freely from one person to another.

When we examine words we can learn a lot about origins.

Origins of ideas, origins of motives, origins of the things to which the words refer. Other origins too.

So words are pretty important. They need to be right. That is, if they are intended to mean anything.

In this discussion group, we use words, because we would be unable to discuss if we did not use words. Who ever heard of a discussion without words?

We more or less agree on a common vocabulary, and we do this so that each of us knows what the other person is talking about.

So, if Jean refers to the hilt shown in post #99 as a "putra satu", we all know what he's talking about. If Michael calls it a "yaksa", yep, we understand him too. If somebody wants to call it "raksasa", I doubt any of us will have any problem with that.

For myself, I don't really care what anybody calls it. My professional mind would like to label it as a Jawa ZX7, but then I'd be the only one who knew what I meant, so that would be a pretty silly way to go.

But lets look at what the common terms used to describe this hilt type mean.

We've already had a discussion on yaksa & raksasa, so I won't revisit them except to mention in passing that both words are Javanese, and were known in Old Javanese.

But "putra satu". That one is an interesting name.

Why?

Because it is a new name. A very new name. A name that is extremely unlikely to have been in use in Jawa prior to, let's say, 1950. A name that in any case would never have had a Javanese usage at any time in history.

Why?

Because it is Bahasa Indonesia, not Javanese.

In Javanese the word "satu" refers to a kind of cake.

In Javanese the word "putra" means a child.

But when these words occur in Indonesian they mean something else entirely.

The word "putra" means "prince" (it has other associated meanings, depending upon context; it is a contraction of "putera")

The word "satu" means "one".

I do not know where the term "putra satu" originated. I know it is in general usage amongst collectors, and some dealers.

My gut feeling is that this term is a dealer's invention to flim-flam collectors.

Most importantly, this term tells us nothing at all of what name this hilt type may have been given by the people who carved them and wore them.

It is simply a term that permits identification amongst collectors.

[Sajen]

Thank you for your logical education about the term "putra satu" Alan. Of course I am aware about the meaning (my young son is named Putra) but never thought about that it can't be the correct name for this hilt type simple because it isn't a javanese term.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Here are a few more "green bean cake" hilts.

[Sajen]

Here are a few more "green bean cake" hilts.

:D :D Beautiful hilts, thank's for sharing.

[Gustav]

I suggest the terrifying name "devilish granny" for this one.

[Gustav]

Yaksa? Perhaps an older one.

[Sajen]

A handle from the collection of a friend. Cirebon? West Java? What you think?

[Sajen]

From the same collection. Semar, Central Java?

[RSWORD]

I will add a few examples. Bali?

[RSWORD]

I love the endless knot motif worked into this example.

[RSWORD]

Very abstract yet upon close review you can see facial features.

[RSWORD]

Same as previous one. Very abstract but I can make out a face.

[RSWORD]

This is an interesting one. I see a dragon in the abstract carving and there are also 2 Chinese style dragons carved on the sides of the handle. There is also an Arabic inscription to boot on the handle.

[David]

Nice examples Rick. Those first two are quite interesting, though i'm not sure that first one is Balinese.
These last two, however, seem beyond the intent of this particular thread. They seem a bit too much of a stretch for me. They are abstract hilts, not figural, no matter what our imagination allows us to see in the form. While i do believe the hidden figures are intentional it is not what we generally mean when we talk about figural hilts. If we were to follow this track then EVERY keris hilt would be included as "figural" hilts since they pretty much all allude to such forms one way or another. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

It may be useful to have a look at this previous thread:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10128&highlight=dvarapala

[A. G. Maisey]

Another one.

[rasjid]

Here's mine.
Unfortunately the bottom part of the ivory has been cut away ( or maybe eaten by rat.... not sure). :(

[A. G. Maisey]

A few more.

[Bejo]

Hi,

This is my figural hilt collection. Any idea about this hilt origin?

Thank you,

Best regards,

Joe

[Marcokeris]

Hi,

This is my figural hilt collection. Any idea about this hilt origin?

Thank you,

Best regards,

Joe
It could be East Java

[Sajen]

Any idea about this hilt origin?

Hello Joe,

your hilt could show Bima, in many books it's described as this and like Marco said could originate from East Java.
Here my example, sadly with carved away crown/bun.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Some Jawa Deman handles, variations in style, material and origin. But the most coming from Sumatra. Since they are in display now I've thought to share some pictures.

[Roland_M]

Some Jawa Deman handles, variations in style, material and origin. But the most coming from Sumatra. Since they are in display now I've thought to share some pictures.

Hello Detlef,

very nice collection and presentation!

Here is my unknown silver hilt, very detailed and made of a massive piece of silver, could be a kind of Cocetan. Maybe someone knows more.

No better pics, sorry.


Best wishes,
Roland

[Sajen]

Here the other Sumatra display, need to get cleaned again. :rolleyes:

[Sajen]

...very nice collection and presentation!

Thank you! :)

Here is my unknown silver hilt, very detailed and made of a massive piece of silver, could be a kind of Cocetan. Maybe someone knows more.

I doubt that someone will be able to name this hilt. Balinese "carvers" use often their own interpretation of traditional figures for their handles. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

[Bejo]

It could be East Java
Hello Marco,

Thank you for your help.
There is a hilt that you posted earlier that looks similar with mine. In reply 58, picture number 4. Maybe it comes from same region.


Hello Joe,

your hilt could show Bima, in many books it's described as this and like Marco said could originate from East Java.
Here my example, sadly with carved away crown/bun.

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,

Thank you for your explanation. Yes, both of the hilts look similar. I have another hilts that maybe from East Java, too. Quite unique to me, one of the hand holds a mask/ head. The other hand holds a blade.

I am just focusing at Javanese tosan aji right now, so I don't know about other region's hilt. But your collection is very nice

Hello Detlef,

very nice collection and presentation!

Here is my unknown silver hilt, very detailed and made of a massive piece of silver, could be a kind of Cocetan. Maybe someone knows more.

No better pics, sorry.


Best wishes,
Roland

Hello Roland,

I am curious about what figural in your hilt.
Is that hilt ressemble a dragon?



One of my Madura hilt collection for patrem (maybe Donoriko?). Also a hilt from West Java style. A friend of mine told me it is called Ganesha.


Best regards,

Joe

[Roland_M]

Hello Roland,

I am curious about what figural in your hilt.
Is that hilt ressemble a dragon?

Best regards,

Joe

Hello Joe,

Yes I think so. It seems to be the birth of a dragon. The dragons tail is a 13 lok-blade (at least I think so) with a beautiful Ganesha-figure, no elephant, an Indian Ganesha with four arms. The hilt was formed from a massive piece of silver.


Best wishes,
Roland

[A. G. Maisey]

I believe investigation will show that the hilt is fabricated from quite light sheet silver, then chased and filled with some supportive mixture, usually jabung.

[Roland_M]

I believe investigation will show that the hilt is fabricated from quite light sheet silver, then chased and filled with some supportive mixture, usually jabung.


Question: What weight of the hilt would you expect from a light sheet silver hilt with some supportive mixture?

[Sajen]

I have another hilts that maybe from East Java, too. Quite unique to me, one of the hand holds a mask/ head. The other hand holds a blade.

Hello Joe,

this could be a hilt from Cirebon or from the North-East coast of Java. Like you said byself, a very unique handle and very nice.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Image below:- 12.5cm high, 225gm.

[Roland_M]

Image below:- 12.5cm high, 225gm.

Thanks for the picture.

My hilt got the same dimensions as your example and weighs ~235 grams. I believe it is partially casted (hollow casted) and carved/grinded. The flames around the nose and other details has been added later in the process. Not more than a guess.

[David]

Here is my unknown silver hilt, very detailed and made of a massive piece of silver, could be a kind of Cocetan. Maybe someone knows more.
No better pics, sorry.
I can't say i have ever seen a Balinese hilt with this style and figure. Seems very unusual to me. I don't think this was intended to be a Kocetan. Only 2 arms (or legs) and their appear to be talons on the hands/feet.
Can you make some better photos of this hilt Roland. I would love to see it better.

[Sajen]

In the exhibition "Götter-Schmiede" was shown a Bali Keris with a nearly identical hilt, here a picture from the catalog. Sorry for the poor picture quality.

[David]

hmmm....now i am even more intrigued... :)

[Sajen]

hmmm....now i am even more intrigued... :)

Hi David,

here the picture from the complete keris, the sarung from Roland's keris is very similar and it looks like they coming from the same workshop.
Both examples have a scabbard complete covered with silver sheet, with very good embossing and engraving work, outstanding work indeed. It's not exactly dated but guessed by the work done on this piece to end of the 19th to early 20th century. I would concur with this dating.
Here a picture from this keris, sadly it will be difficult to see the fine work.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Thanks Detlef.

[A. G. Maisey]

Roland, I have never known a Balinese silver worker to cast this type of silver work, these hilts, and the thousands upon thousands of other silver objects that the craftsmen around Celuk make are 99.9% fabricated. Same goes for the workers in Kota Gede in Central Jawa.

There are production reasons and cost reasons for this. Casting is only economical when the quantity of silver used is not a consideration, or when the labour involved in casting will be offset by mass production. These hilts are not mass produced, they are one off productions.

[Jean]

Hi David,

here the picture from the complete keris, the sarung from Roland's keris is very similar and it looks like they coming from the same workshop.
Both examples have a scabbard complete covered with silver sheet, with very good embossing and engraving work, outstanding work indeed. It's not exactly dated but guessed by the work done on this piece to end of the 19th to early 20th century. I would concur with this dating.
Here a picture from this keris, sadly it will be difficult to see the fine work.

Regards,
Detlef

From the pics (so I may be wrong) I doubt that these pieces are that old and the style of embossed decoration is not Balinese? :confused:
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Jean, absolutely.

Ornamentation is not Balinese style, the "dragon"(?) is not Balinese style. I cannot see much of Bali anywhere, however, to the best of my knowledge China has not yet started to dabble in the keris market, the way it has in other collectables markets, so I'm prepared to accept this as Balinese for the time being.

[Roland_M]

I can't say i have ever seen a Balinese hilt with this style and figure. Seems very unusual to me. I don't think this was intended to be a Kocetan. Only 2 arms (or legs) and their appear to be talons on the hands/feet.
Can you make some better photos of this hilt Roland. I would love to see it better.

Hello David,

sure and please here they are. I cannot say anything about the Ificah-example except that mine is much more detailed and more skillfully made. I can see traces from engraving. My example is from ~1900 or earlier. BTW, the Mendak is decorated with very fine rubys. The last picture with the blade is from the auction house. A very rare four armed Ganesha figure. I turned the hilt 180° immediately after it arrived.


Regards,
Roland

[David]

In many ways it looks more like a Barong or lion than a dragon, but it still does not seem to fit into any known Balinese style for said creatures. It's impressive regardless.

[Roland_M]

In many ways it looks more like a Barong or lion than a dragon, but it still does not seem to fit into any known Balinese style for said creatures. It's impressive regardless.

Dragon is just a guess. I would say it is a zoomorphic figure with different influences. The Indonesians are the best artists worldwide with great advance related to zoomorphic figures. The flat and smooth blade seems to be from Bali.

[A. G. Maisey]

Roland, just to confirm:- the keris shown in post 142 is your keris, and it is attributed to pre-1900?

[Roland_M]

Roland, just to confirm:- the keris shown in post 142 is your keris, and it is attributed to pre-1900?

Alan, yes this is my Keris and the description of the auction house was 1800 or earlier. If you could see the scabbard, you would see, that this Keris is older than 30- 50 years or so. Detlef (sajen) saw this Keris many times and he also said ~1900.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Roland.

Do you know if there was reliable provenance, and if there was not, who did the appraisal?

[Roland_M]

Thank you Roland.

Do you know if there was reliable provenance, and if there was not, who did the appraisal?

My pleasure Alan,

I have no informations about the person which made the description for the auction house. German Auction houses often use the description from the seller without further investigations. So the description from the auction house is not very reliable in many cases.
Around 1900 is Detlefs (sajen) Statement, he is extraordinary experienced, he got many books and saw thousends of Keris. If you like to see the scabbard, I will send some pictures to you via Email. The scabbard is worth to have a look on it.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Roland.

[Sajen]

..... he got many books and saw thousends of Keris.


:D :D I don't saw thousends of Keris, houndreds sounds better! :D

[kai]

Hello Roland,

If you like to see the scabbard, I will send some pictures to you via Email. The scabbard is worth to have a look on it.
I believe it would be worth to have a dedicated thread on this keris!

A pic of the other side of the blade (only the basal third, pointing upwards) would be greatly appreciated, too. Thanks!

Regards,
Kai

[Roland_M]

Hello Roland,


I believe it would be worth to have a dedicated thread on this keris!

A pic of the other side of the blade (only the basal third, pointing upwards) would be greatly appreciated, too. Thanks!

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

thank you and I will make a thread on this Keris in the next few days. The scabbard alone is worth a thread. The pamor on this blade is pretty unusual and many collectors may dislike it, but well controlled random patterns are my personal favorite.


Regards,
Roland

[David]

I believe it would be worth to have a dedicated thread on this keris!

A pic of the other side of the blade (only the basal third, pointing upwards) would be greatly appreciated, too. Thanks!
Thanks Kai. As i was reading through these posts this morning i was going to suggest the same thing. :)
Both clear, sharp detail shots and over all images in good light would be helpful to the discussion.

[Bjorn]

As it's been a while since any hilts have been posted - and as this is such a lovely thread - I thought I'd share my humble collection. They're certainly not all old or as impressive as some of the previously posted hilts, but nevertheless I hope you'll enjoy seeing them.

[Bjorn]

Second batch

[Bjorn]

Third

[Bjorn]

And final.

[David]

Thanks for posting Bjorn. Even if they are not all particularly old they are nonetheless interesting additions to our gallery. :)

[Athanase]

I'm not sure of the geographical origin of this Javanese hilt (East Java?) :shrug:

But I'm pretty sure it represents Bhima: position of the hands, the belt with its buckle, the bun, etc. ... it's very close to Balinese hilts representing this deity.

[kai]

Hello Séverin,

Another very finely carved hilt! If you ever decide to let it go... ;)

IMVHO this is a somewhat later example based on the early type representing a demonic being (I believe I also can make out fangs with your example) apparently belonging to the Kastrya echelon. Based on carving style and wear/patina, I'd guess your's is really old and certainly antique though.

The additional wooden "bead" below the hilt is weird. I've seen a few of these but no idea where this idea came from?

This keris seems worth a dedicated discussion - maybe you could post the blade and its fittings in a separate thread?


I'm pretty sure it represents Bhima: position of the hands, the belt with its buckle, the bun, etc. ... it's very close to Balinese hilts representing this deity.
BTW, I'd posit that with many/most Balinese hilts the original attribution (intended by the carver and/or sponsor) is not possible to prove. Same-o for figural hilts of other regions, I guess. Thus, it might be safer to qualify any interpretations.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Kai, affixing names of specific Balinese deities or folk figures can be pretty difficult sometimes. Moreover, sometimes the people in Bali whom one would think might have a good idea of what specific personage is represented by a totogan, will have no idea at all, or else, be demonstrably wrong.

But sometimes an attribution will be included in the carving that might be sufficient clue to venture a guess on. With Bhima it is usually an overlong thumb nail and/or rather massive genitals.

In respect of hairstyle, I'd be looking for a crab-claw hairstyle on a Bhima representation. The simple knot of hair is normally associated with a low level personage, maybe a punakawan, or servant, or common man.

Edit

I've referred to "hair style" above. Ideally, this crab claw (supit urang) would have been a hair style, but in reality it was probably mostly a head-dress, its symbolism is that it identifies a hero.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

Thanks for your thoughts!

Regarding the genitals we can only guess, this type seems to always maintain decorum... ;)

It is also always carved with 4 fingers with apparently the thumb hidden from view. (If it were meant to represent Bhima, I'd expect the thumb(nail) not to be hidden from view though.)

While the bun may appear simple, this type always comes with quite elaborate hairdo with very neatly arranged hair, several successive rows of curls in the bun and often additional curls below - pretty much nessitating a hairdresser (not a DIY thing, I believe).

This type also always come with lots of status wear: A huge central diadem which is kinda mirrored at the back of the head, too. Around the ears there seems to be a sumping ron (slightly smaller than usual?) and possibly an eloborate ring dangling down from the earlobe (if not part of the sumping ron). Then we have a massive and heavily decorated breast plate followed by a very broad belt with central plate/buckle and, again, heavy decor. The upper arms, wrists and ankles are also carrying elaborate bangles. Definitely a member of the upper echelons and not a common man is represented here!

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

If you say so Kai.

So give us a name.

Or maybe point us at a known monumental representation or a wayang figure?

Kai, my comment was this:-

"The simple knot of hair is normally associated with a low level personage, maybe a punakawan, or servant, or common man."

If you understood this remark to be an indication of an opinion on who or what this hilt could be, I apologise for my failure to be clear. This remark on the "simple knot of hair" was a general comment in respect of symbolism, it was not an inference of identity in respect of this specific hilt. For example, Bagong is often shown with a simple knot of hair, but this is not to suggest that the character that this hilt represents is Bagong.

In fact the protuberance on the head of this figure might not be a knot of hair at all. Prabu Ratmaja is usually depicted with a head dress that looks somewhat like the ornament on the head of this figure. I have several examples of Prabu Ratmaja, and you can find more scattered through some of the well known references, like "Keris Bali", and "Understanding Balinese Keris", in most of my examples of Prabu Ratmaja the hair finishes in curls at the rim of the protuberance.

Prabu Ratmaja was a Raksasa King, and my examples all have the requisite fangs. I cannot see fangs on this hilt, but they could be there somewhere. He is a reasonably common figure on Balinese totogan hilts because he is regarded as having extraordinarily strong protective powers, he is also reasonably common on Javanese figural hilts.

This hilt could be intended to be Prabu Ratmaja, but really, I am reluctant to put this idea forward with any conviction. Naming hilt figures is a recipe for argument, and the only person who could sometimes tell you exactly who a figure is would be the carver and original owner.

[Athanase]

Hello,
Thank you both for all this information.
I admit that if I thought of Bhima it is because of numerous similar identification seen on internet on Balinese handles (very close to those generally attributed to Bayu but without the miroir).
But you are right apparently, after some research after reading you I realize that it isn't because a thing is very often repeated and taken everywhere that it is true ... :shrug:

Here is an overview of Kriss, no sheath unfortunately and a simple blade.
For the "wooden ball" under the handle, I think it's a fairly "new" to compensate the absence of the mendak and a pesi too long.

[Jean]

For the "wooden ball" under the handle, I think it's a fairly "new" to compensate the absence of the mendak and a pesi too long.

Is the wooden ball integral with the hilt or not?
Martin Kerner showed similar hilts identified as Bima in his reference book "Keris Griffe aus Museen und privatsammlungen".
Regards

[Athanase]

Is the wooden ball integral with the hilt or not? IMO this hilt is reasonably old but not antique.
Regards

Is not integral whith the hilt, isn't the same wood, it's just glued
:(

For the age I think first part of XXth century (or a little more?), but it's just a "feeling".

[Anthony G.]

Post them up ! :)

The only Hulu I have not attached to a Bilah.

:)

[A. G. Maisey]

Both Kai & I have commented on the difficulty of identifying the specific characters that are represented in Balinese & Javanese keris hilts. It does not really matter who published what in respect of an opinion of a hilt character, what matters is how that character has been identified, and then that opinion needs to be qualified.

The rational way in which to identify a hilt character is to try to identify any attributes that the carved character may have and then match those attributes to the known and/or accepted attributes of characters found in monumental sculpture or the wayang. But even this approach does not give an answer that can be necessarily relied upon.

As with many Indian Hindu arms, the nature of the keris is that of a shrine, a shrine that is essentially empty but that is held in readiness for the entry of the character from the Other World for whom it has been prepared. That character might be a major deity, a personal, often minor deity, a folk spirit, an ancestor, or even a combination of ancestor plus deity where the ancestor is considered as merged with that ancestor's personal deity after passing from This World. The sacred part of the complete keris is considered to be only the blade, that blade is the shrine, as with other shrines, the shrine that appears as a weapon has a guardian, a dwarapala.

The word "dwarapala" is from the Sanscrit and was used in Old Javanese, the first syllable "dwara" means gate or place of entry, and combined with "pala" it carries the meaning of a gate guardian.

The weapon shrine is normally empty, and evil spirits and evil entities are attracted to empty spaces, so to prevent entry to the empty weapon shrine a dwarapala is needed, that need is fulfilled by the presence of the totogan hilt figure. That hilt figure had a meaning and a purpose for the original custodian of the keris for which it was prepared, but once separated from that original custodian it is really very difficult, if not totally impossible to correctly identify the character represented in the hilt. At least, this is so with older hilts or hilts prepared for a persons with the beliefs of their ancestors, such hilts were in fact prepared as dwarapalas, not simply artistic figures.

The element of ancestor worship within the indigenous societies of Jawa & Bali is one that is frequently disregarded or glossed over. In fact, for a person from these societies who has strong traditional beliefs, the idea of his ancestors is a very major part of his being.

Consider this:- the reason for the existence of all of the ancestors of any person living comes down in the present to just one point, which is the existence of the person who is the product of those ancestors. In extremity, all those ancestors can be called upon to assist the present person. This is a very old idea, and is not unique to Javanese or Balinese indigenous cultures.

So, in an old Javanese or Balinese figural hilt that was prepared in the form of an ancestor figure, that figure represents not just a single ancestor, but the entire line of ancestors who are now present in the person who has that hilt affixed to his keris.

In the modern world many deeply rooted traditional beliefs have been forgotten. Forgotten to the point where even people who should know the possibilities for identification of a Balinese hilt character need to go outside their own society and ask people who are not a part of present day Balinese society what those possibilities might be. Not long ago this loss of culture was driven home to me very clearly by the admission of the loss of some of his cultural memory by a present day, practicing, Balinese empu.


The evidence of the difficulty in naming Balinese keris hilt characters can be seen in the books published by Pande Wayan Suteja Neka:- he is very careful when it comes to attributing specific names to hilt characters unless the attributes are exceptionally clear, and taking the old perspective, perhaps even those identities that have been given, might not be the intention of the original owner. If anybody should be able to identify a hilt character it would be Suteja Neka, but does he jump in and express his first impressions or random ideas as an opinion? I think not.


Very often we see in this discussion group questions raised in respect of the identity of the characters represented in keris hilts. Sometimes the attributes of such a character are not difficult to identify and the hilt is then identified as a representation of some deity or folk figure. But if we take the perspective that could have applied at the time that a particular hilt was prepared, then perhaps our identification must be considered as merely a recital of observed characteristics, the intent of the carver and his client might have been entirely different.

[JustYS]

Post them up ! :)

My contribution to this wonderful thread: Rangda(?)

[Rick]

That is a lovely piece of work, do you have any idea what the material is that it is carved from?
Bamboo root perhaps?

[JustYS]

That is a lovely piece of work, do you have any idea what the material is that it is carved from?
Bamboo root perhaps?

Thank you Rick.

Material is wood but what kind of wood I am not sure, maybe tri kancu?

[Rick]

I also like the juxtaposition of the colors; light next to dark brings to mind the Poleng pattern seen in fabrics of the culture.

[JustYS]

This juxtaposition of light and dark colours in Keris hilts is called Sonten Dalu (Night and Day) if I’m not mistaken

[David]

That is a remarkable bit of carving right there.
I would think Rangda is a fair attribution...in which case i would image the little baby is toast! :eek:

[jagabuwana]

I'm familiar with the baby-eating associations of Rangda, but is it common to depict her with a baby like this? It seems kinda vulgar, but then again I'm not too familiar.

[JustYS]

Thank you David.

Hi Jagabuwana,

I think it is not as common as Rangda without baby/little child, but courtesy to google I’ve found the following:

[werecow]

That second one is the first baby I've ever seen with breasts. ;)

[jagabuwana]

Thank you, JustYS

[JoeCanada42]

That second one is the first baby I've ever seen with breasts. ;)

Perhaps she is pregnant and the Demon is impatient.
or it prefers them fresh , causes a miscarriage

[kai]

Rangda is considered a she, Joe. ;)

She is reported to be not too fussy about her prey... :eek:

[werecow]

I love that keris grip btw. As a kid I often went to the ethnography museum with my parents here in Leiden, and the colorful Indonesian (and particularly Balinese) demon masks and Rangda in particular always creeped me out in a good way. Those creepy lidless eyes, those tusks, and that tongue! I love good horror imagery and monsters of any sort, but I have to admit that western demons don't really compare to the Balinese version.

[milandro]

I have just added this Hulu to my collection.( the picture on the left)

It is said to depict the goddess Devi Sarawati which represents knowledge, music, art, speech, wisdom, and learning. She is also part of the Tridevi with goddesses Lakshmi and Parvati.

I believe this was carved in the '70.

The material should be albino water buffalo horn ( or white Kerbau )

Interestingly at the same auction where I acquired my Hulu there was also ANOTHER (Right in the picture) almost identical hilt which was mounted on a similar kris where this will be mounted .

[Sajen]

A Putra Satu in ivory, just entered the collection.

[Sajen]

I have just added this Hulu to my collection.( the picture on the left)

It is said to depict the goddess Devi Sarawati which represents knowledge, music, art, speech, wisdom, and learning. She is also part of the Tridevi with goddesses Lakshmi and Parvati.

I believe this was carved in the '70.

The material should be albino water buffalo horn ( or white Kerbau )

Interestingly at the same auction where I acquired my Hulu there was also ANOTHER (Right in the picture) almost identical hilt which was mounted on a similar kris where this will be mounted .


Nice hilt in a rare material! Congrats for a nice addition to your collection. :cool:

[milandro]

same to you Detlef

[Sajen]

Another one in blonde horn, a Ramajala from Tegal, ex. Wolfgang Spielmann and Wolfgang Schilling collection.

[kai]

A Putra Satu in ivory, just entered the collection.
A really finely carved one - congrats, Detlef!

Regards,
Kai

[Gavin Nugent]

You've all got some stunning examples and with good pedigree too!

There are only a few true figural examples here, see bottom left corner.

The other image, whilst not a keris hulu and is I guess off topic, it is related to some degree and worth a share within this post.

[Sajen]

A really finely carved one - congrats, Detlef!

Thank you Kai, it comes together with this wrongko and a blade but the blade needs first a proper warangan.

Regards,
Detlef

[Gavin Nugent]

WOW Detlef, that patina! Those carvings!!! The condition!!!

[Sajen]

WOW Detlef, that patina! Those carvings!!! The condition!!!

Hi Gav,

Thanks! Have to agree by patina and carving! The condition is acceptable, the leaf in front was once broken and it's not a good restoration.
But the ensemble is nice! ;)

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Gav,

Thanks! Have to agree by patina and carving! The condition is acceptable, the leaf in front was once broken and it's not a good restoration.
But the ensemble is nice! ;)

Oh, a tragic break. Nice to see that the break away section was retained though.
There are very good craftsmen out there who can faithfully repair these issues, but equally I feel sometimes things are best left alone and preserved as they are.

[Sajen]

Oh, a tragic break. Nice to see that the break away section was retained though.
There are very good craftsmen out there who can faithfully repair these issues, but equally I feel sometimes things are best left alone and preserved as they are.

I know people also who would be able to restore it much better but I tend to leave it alone.

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, there are a number of ways that we can repair this sort damage, some are almost imperceptible, others are a bit clumsy,but when the damage gets to the level that the damage on your wrongko has reached, the usual decision is to change the shape of the wrongko and make it a kacir style.

The Madurese kacir wrongko has a shortened and pointed front (angkup) and a shortened and pointed rear (daunan):-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13435

I just reread this thread, it is worth a re-read, but post #11 is a good example of something that might have had the kacir treatment.

But if you cannot handle basic carving, then it might be best just re-do the present attempt and use tinted Araldite as both adhesive & filler.

[Gavin Nugent]

Not wanting to move of the hulu topic, but am I seeing a crocodile and a bird in the carvings?
Both seem to be important figures in sea going cultures.

What is the legend behind the carvings on Detlef's wrongko?

[Sajen]

Detlef, there are a number of ways that we can repair this sort damage, some are almost imperceptible, others are a bit clumsy,but when the damage gets to the level that the damage on your wrongko has reached, the usual decision is to change the shape of the wrongko and make it a kacir style.

But if you cannot handle basic carving, then it might be best just re-do the present attempt and use tinted Araldite as both adhesive & filler.

Hello Alan,

For the moment I will let it be like this, it will be a future project to open the glued break and hot water damp and reglue it in a better way and fill up the missing piece of wood with wax or something else.
For the moment I have waxed it, it looks much better now.

To recarve the wrongko is no option.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Not wanting to move of the hulu topic, but am I seeing a crocodile and a bird in the carvings?
Both seem to be important figures in sea going cultures.

What is the legend behind the carvings on Detlef's wrongko?

Hello Gav,

Frankly said I don't seeing a bird nor a crocodile, I see a wing, yes, but I suppose it's either the Kuda Sembrani (a winged horse, said to coming from the Keraton Suminep) or Garuda, both symbols you can find also in front of some Donoriko hilts, see attached pictures.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, I would suggest that hot water is not really necessary, and water applied directly to the wood is perhaps not advisable.

Possibly the easiest way to get a glued joint apart is to put it in contact with damp cloth, wrap the cloth around it is what is usually done. It might take a few days, but most joints will usually weaken with this treatment.

Then wait a few weeks until the wood is thoroughly dry.

[Sajen]

Detlef, I would suggest that hot water is not really necessary, and water applied directly to the wood is perhaps not advisable.

Possibly the easiest way to get a glued joint apart is to put it in contact with damp cloth, wrap the cloth around it is what is usually done. It might take a few days, but most joints will usually weaken with this treatment.

Then wait a few weeks until the wood is thoroughly dry.

Hello Alan,

I've done something like this before over hot water damp, without any direct contact to the water. A wet cloth around the joint gives more contact to the wood I guess.
But like said, I will let it first in this condition, it looks much better now and will be a later project. And I think that I only fill up the missing piece of wood.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, the problem with holding a piece of timber over hot water to loosen adhesive is that there can be risk of raising the grain of the wood, thus creating a situation where you could need to refinish the entire piece.

If you use a damp --- only damp, not dripping water --- cloth & cold water, that risk of raising the grain is reduced to a minimum.

In fact, with fine cabinet work, and other types of fine finishing of timber, we deliberately raise the grain prior to polishing, I was taught to do this by using a damp cloth and then a hot iron on the damp cloth, but these days I often use an electric steam iron.

Additionally, now we sometimes find that a repair has been done with other than ordinary wood adhesives, these will not loosen up from the damp by softening the adhesive, but with damp and time, the grain of the wood itself will usually weaken and you can separate the joint.

[Sajen]

Detlef, the problem with holding a piece of timber over hot water to loosen adhesive is that there can be risk of raising the grain of the wood, thus creating a situation where you could need to refinish the entire piece.

If you use a damp --- only damp, not dripping water --- cloth & cold water, that risk of raising the grain is reduced to a minimum.

In fact, with fine cabinet work, and other types of fine finishing of timber, we deliberately raise the grain prior to polishing, I was taught to do this by using a damp cloth and then a hot iron on the damp cloth, but these days I often use an electric steam iron.

Additionally, now we sometimes find that a repair has been done with other than ordinary wood adhesives, these will not loosen up from the damp by softening the adhesive, but with damp and time, the grain of the wood itself will usually weaken and you can separate the joint.

Hello Alan,

It seems that I have had good luck before.
Thank you for the very useful tips, I am sure that you know what you are talking about! ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

All interesting stuff gentlemen, but just a reminder that this is a thread specifically dedicated to figural hilts. ;)
Carry on...

[Gavin Nugent]

An array of figural hulu from an old Instagram post I made a few months ago... ever vigilant gazes of the ancestors.

Gavin

[milandro]

this is another of my Balinese figural hilts , it is not Hanuman because it lacks a tail , I think it may be a Raksasa form

[Interested Party]

A Punakawan?

[milandro]

A Punakawan?

probably :)

[milandro]

A Punakawan?

Apparently (I found some other threads here talking about the Balinese variant of the Punakawan, this is Twalen or Tualen


"....Tualen (tualèn) or Malen is one of the punakawan figures (Balinese parěkan) in the wayang tradition in Bali. His character is similar to Semar in Javanese wayang. In the Balinese wayang tradition, Tualen is depicted as an old man with an ugly face, black skin, but behind his appearance, he has a noble heart, has good manners, knows manners and likes to give wise advice. In the Balinese wayang tradition in general, there are three sons, namely: Merdah, Delem and Sangut. The four of them (including Tualen) are clowns who are very well known among Balinese people....."

[David]

Apparently (I found some other threads here talking about the Balinese variant of the Punakawan, this is Twalen or Tualen


"....Tualen (tualèn) or Malen is one of the punakawan figures (Balinese parěkan) in the wayang tradition in Bali. His character is similar to Semar in Javanese wayang. In the Balinese wayang tradition, Tualen is depicted as an old man with an ugly face, black skin, but behind his appearance, he has a noble heart, has good manners, knows manners and likes to give wise advice. In the Balinese wayang tradition in general, there are three sons, namely: Merdah, Delem and Sangut. The four of them (including Tualen) are clowns who are very well known among Balinese people....."
Yes, i believe Twalen is often depicted missing his top front teeth.

[A. G. Maisey]

Twalen & Mwerdah

[JustYS]

Pick up couple of Balinese hilts for my small but growing collection.
It’s almost as addictive as Keris…..

[Gavin Nugent]

I love that keris grip btw. As a kid I often went to the ethnography museum with my parents here in Leiden, and the colorful Indonesian (and particularly Balinese) demon masks and Rangda in particular always creeped me out in a good way. Those creepy lidless eyes, those tusks, and that tongue! I love good horror imagery and monsters of any sort, but I have to admit that western demons don't really compare to the Balinese version.

To quote a dear departed friend where Bali iconography is concerned, "Even the Goodies have teeth"

[Rick]

That's a very nice grouping; excellent workmanship!
What or who is the figure on the right side of the image?
Great additions to the thread! Thanks :)

[Gavin Nugent]

That's a very nice grouping; excellent workmanship!
What or who is the figure on the right side of the image?
Great additions to the thread! Thanks :)

Rick, this thread may be of some insight.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27190

[JustYS]

That's a very nice grouping; excellent workmanship!
What or who is the figure on the right side of the image?
Great additions to the thread! Thanks :)

Thank you Rick.

It’s a horse.

[Sajen]

A new addition to the collection, a Lombok handle.

[Interested Party]

Interesting and well done pieces. JustYS and Sajen do you know the approximate age of your examples?

For my edification, Sajen yours is Hanapu? JustYS from left yours are 1. Unknown 2 Vishnu and Guarda 3. Rakshasa 4. Ganesh 5. Unknown I can't see what he is holding for a clue 6. Rangda and a snack. 7. Horse with no visible wings.

[David]

Pick up couple of Balinese hilts for my small but growing collection.
It’s almost as addictive as Keris…..

Nice contemporary carvings Just. Yes, there are some folks who only collect hilts. I can see why it can be addictive.

[Sajen]

Interesting and well done pieces. JustYS and Sajen do you know the approximate age of your examples?

For my edification, Sajen yours is Hanapu? JustYS from left yours are 1. Unknown 2 Vishnu and Guarda 3. Rakshasa 4. Ganesh 5. Unknown I can't see what he is holding for a clue 6. Rangda and a snack. 7. Horse with no visible wings.

Hello IP,

I can only guess the age of my hilt, it's used and show age, made from buffalo horn. 50 to 100 years? It's a monkey but I don't think that it should represent Hanuman.

Regards,
Detlef

[JustYS]

Interesting and well done pieces. JustYS and Sajen do you know the approximate age of your examples?

For my edification, Sajen yours is Hanapu? JustYS from left yours are 1. Unknown 2 Vishnu and Guarda 3. Rakshasa 4. Ganesh 5. Unknown I can't see what he is holding for a clue 6. Rangda and a snack. 7. Horse with no visible wings.

Hi IP,

As David said, mines are mostly contemporary (20th/21st century hilts).

From left to right:
1. Wayang character
2. Vishnu riding Garuda
3. Rakshasa/Demon
4. Ganesha
5. The carver said Prabu (King), could be Rama but not sure
6. Rangda
7. Horse

[A. G. Maisey]

I have just finished reading a very good book, it is a translation from French of the ethnographic accounts of Pierre Dubois, Helen Creese, an Australian academic is the author, the title is "Bali in the Early Nineteenth Century".

Much of the content was familiar to me from other reading that I have done, but all the same there was a lot, a real lot, of things I did not know.

The reason why I have mentioned it here is that I now understand why it is that identification of the characters portrayed in Balinese totogan hilts is somewhere between difficult & impossible in many cases. Often even the carvers are not aware of the character they are carving.

A bit peculiar?

Well, in the book I just mentioned I discovered that way back in the early 19th century in Bali, the Brahmins absolutely controlled the depiction of totogan characters, they would provide a carver with a description, a sketch, or a rough example, sometimes an old example, and the carver would carve it to the Brahmin's instructions. They did not know what they were carving, they only knew what the Brahmin client wanted.

Another factor to consider is this:- even if the name of the totogan character has been correctly given, we still do not know exactly who the hilt is supposed to represent, it is very likely to be the grand father or father of somebody.

So it is perhaps best not to get too caught up in IDing Bali hilt characters, in the past, and through to today, it is a guessing game.

[milandro]

I have just added this Hulu to my collection.( the picture on the left)

It is said to depict the goddess Devi Sarawati which represents knowledge, music, art, speech, wisdom, and learning. She is also part of the Tridevi with goddesses Lakshmi and Parvati.

I believe this was carved in the '70.

The material should be albino water buffalo horn ( or white Kerbau )

Interestingly at the same auction where I acquired my Hulu there was also ANOTHER (Right in the picture) almost identical hilt which was mounted on a similar kris where this will be mounted .



I have just learned that the hilt is a representation of Putri Mandalika a Sasak princess whose figure overlaps and someone is identified with the one of Parvati . The goddess is worshipped by the Sasak population of Lombok but also on Bali.


I got this from a new friend , Duncan, who is a very knowledgeable hilt connoisseur , Very thankful to him.

[HughChen]

hilt

[milandro]

hilt

Are you sure this is a Kris hilt?:confused:

I think that this may be a the hilt ( or rather the handle) of a Betelnut chisel or cutter

they are generally more ornate and have often this truncated cone shape

these were sold (terminated auction, therefore allowed) and in my view are similar

[David]

I am in agreement with Milandro. More likely a Betel Nut tool.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, pelecok.

[HughChen]

Are you sure this is a Kris hilt?:confused:

I think that this may be a the hilt ( or rather the handle) of a Betelnut chisel or cutter

they are generally more ornate and have often this truncated cone shape

these were sold (terminated auction, therefore allowed) and in my view are similar

I am in agreement with Milandro. More likely a Betel Nut tool.

Yes, pelecok.

I'm not sure. We thought it was a hilt. Maybe the Betelnut chisel and Keris sometimes share a handle by native users.

[A. G. Maisey]

No, I'm sorry HughChen, but a keris hilt & a pelecok are two entirely different things & they do not share hilts. The pelecok is a tool, the keris is a socio-religious icon & a weapon.

There can be no doubt about this.

[Sajen]

I'm not sure. We thought it was a hilt. Maybe the Betelnut chisel and Keris sometimes share a handle by native users.

Hello Chen,

I am with the others, it's a handle for a betel pestle, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29123&highlight=betel

Regards,
Detlef

[HughChen]

No, I'm sorry HughChen, but a keris hilt & a pelecok are two entirely different things & they do not share hilts. The pelecok is a tool, the keris is a socio-religious icon & a weapon.

There can be no doubt about this.

Hello Chen,

I am with the others, it's a handle for a betel pestle, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29123&highlight=betel

Regards,
Detlef

Thank you for correcting of my misunderstanding. Based on those pics,T think maybe this horn one is also not a hilt, while the wooden one is a Balinese hilt.

[HughChen]

items of a finished auction. Very high quality.

[David]

Thank you for correcting of my misunderstanding. Based on those pics,T think maybe this horn one is also not a hilt, while the wooden one is a Balinese hilt.
I'm not sure what in Detlef's link gave you that impression. IMO this horn figural hilt is indeed a keris hilt.

[David]

items of a finished auction. Very high quality.
These are nice carvings Hugh, but honestly i would hesitate to label them as VERY high quality. First of all, usually the highest quality would be reserved for ivory, not only a more valuable material, but one that lends itself to a more detailed level of carving than bone. But even bone can be carved to a higher level of carving than the examples you show. Please understand i am not saying those examples are undesirable. As i stated, they are really nice hilts that i would surely welcome into my collection. But i just wanted you to be aware that they are not the highest level of Balinese carving skill.

[David]

Here are a couple of rather nice Bali hilts carved in bone. These two are contemporary carving which i believe are done with moose bone, which has become a popular medium for contemporary Balinese carvers. I believe the detail on these later carvings is fairly high quality.

[Sajen]

I'm not sure what in Detlef's link gave you that impression. IMO this horn figural hilt is indeed a keris hilt.

Hi David,

I guess Chen goes with the ferrule! ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Hi David,

I guess Chen goes with the ferrule! ;)

Regards,
Detlef
Oh, my bad actually. I completely missed the small photo at the top of the page.
Frankly i'm not sure what that is a hilt for, but yes, the ferrule on that hilt would be unusual for a Balinese keris hilt. :p

[A. G. Maisey]

Post #229.

The small pic at top left:- not keris, could be pelecok, most likely a knife hilt.

[HughChen]

I'm not sure what in Detlef's link gave you that impression. IMO this horn figural hilt is indeed a keris hilt.

Hi David,

I guess Chen goes with the ferrule! ;)

Regards,
Detlef

Oh, my bad actually. I completely missed the small photo at the top of the page.
Frankly i'm not sure what that is a hilt for, but yes, the ferrule on that hilt would be unusual for a Balinese keris hilt. :p

Post #229.

The small pic at top left:- not keris, could be pelecok, most likely a knife hilt.

Thank you all. yes, the pelecok gives me hint.

The wooden figural hilt with strange back head was sold last month in a Chinese ancient coin auction. Nobody except me knew what it was. Even the seller just introduced it as a carved wood. I wanted to buy it, but someone told me it was not really old, but artificially aged. So I quit.

[HughChen]

Here are a couple of rather nice Bali hilts carved in bone. These two are contemporary carving which i believe are done with moose bone, which has become a popular medium for contemporary Balinese carvers. I believe the detail on these later carvings is fairly high quality.

Yes David, I agree they are of high quality. But it's much easier to do high quality with electronic tools contemporarily.And New ones are open to sale in scale, whereas old good ones are difficult to find. Because of that, I think old carved hilts are still much more attractive to me.


These are nice carvings Hugh, but honestly i would hesitate to label them as VERY high quality. First of all, usually the highest quality would be reserved for ivory, not only a more valuable material, but one that lends itself to a more detailed level of carving than bone. But even bone can be carved to a higher level of carving than the examples you show. Please understand i am not saying those examples are undesirable. As i stated, they are really nice hilts that i would surely welcome into my collection. But i just wanted you to be aware that they are not the highest level of Balinese carving skill.


I agree that ivory is always better, but ivory can cause some legal confusion so I'm afraid to be so into it that I cannot control myself to try to get one at legal risk.

It's a pleasure for me to see these high-quality carvings you've provided. Are these made of bone or ivory? It's beyond my ability to tell which are better, or to Rank them in terms of quality. If someone can do it to help me understand better, it will be much appreciated. In my naive eyes, I think they are as good as the pair I represent which was sold in a French aucion. I found them sold in very high price. I apologize for my lack of artistic sensitivity. Due to my sluggish appreciation ability, I have to rely on your expert view as an indicator to understand the quality of something. I myself can only tell which is good and which is not good, still lacking the ability to tell how good and which one is better .

[A. G. Maisey]

I believe that we need to differentiate between quality of execution, & quality of material, the two things are separate & different.

Post #81 in this thread is a hilt of mine, it is high quality material, 22K gold, and superb craftsmanship. This hilt displays both elements of quality in the single item.

With other hilts we should, I believe, make it clear if we are commenting on the material, or on the craftsmanship.

[HughChen]

These are nice carvings Hugh, but honestly i would hesitate to label them as VERY high quality. First of all, usually the highest quality would be reserved for ivory, not only a more valuable material, but one that lends itself to a more detailed level of carving than bone. But even bone can be carved to a higher level of carving than the examples you show. Please understand i am not saying those examples are undesirable. As i stated, they are really nice hilts that i would surely welcome into my collection. But i just wanted you to be aware that they are not the highest level of Balinese carving skill.

There are very very beautiful. Thank you for letting us see them!

[JustYS]

Reviving this thread with my latest addition:

[Anthony G.]

Reviving this thread with my latest addition:

Nice.

Crafted by an old artisan in Bali, I assume.

[JustYS]

Nice.

Crafted by an old artisan in Bali, I assume.

Thank you Anthony and yes your assumption is correct