Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras?

[SwedeGreen]

Friends:

I'd like some help in identifying these four swords. They were purchased in Yemen and brought to the US in the 1960's. I'd like to learn, as best I can:

Where they originated?
What period / date they would have been made?
Rough value?
I realize that these may not be answerable by viewing a few photos but I'll start here.

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

[A.alnakkas]

hey, welcome to the forum.

As per forum rules, we cannot do values here BUT these are interesting swords, some suggest them to be Omani while others suggest them to be Yemeni. Judging from the mounts I guess they are Omani :-)

[Emanuel]

Hi Johnny, welcome to this forum as well.

I'm glad you joined and posted. I look forward to a resolution on this.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

Welcome Johnny, and these four swords are Omani kattara, and from what we have learned from Ibrahiim, who has done extensive research on these, they are primarily ceremonial swords used in Omani traditional performances. They are of course modern, and as mentioned we do not openly appraise or discuss values, but you may of course contact us privately for such matters.
I believe the blades for these are produced in Oman, and has been noted by Lofty the mounts are distinctly Omani, but not unusual for any of these weapons to travel to other locations including Yemen.

You might use the search at the top header of the page to retrieve some of the lengthy discussions that have covered these under 'kattara'. I think you will find the results greatly informative.

Thank you for posting these!!

[SwedeGreen]

Thank you to Jim, Emanuel (again), and Mr. Alnakkas for your welcome and info. I seem to have broken two Forum rules already so excuse me and thanks for your patience.

I'll study the forums on Kattaras while enjoying all of the rich information from the rest of this interesting field.

Respectfully
Johnny

[Emanuel]

Wow I'm confused :)

So...the sayf is straight, the kattara is curved, the old Omani battle swords were called Yamani Sayf, and this type of hilt was identified by Ibrahiim as the older, original long kattara handle, before it was simplified to the tapered one we know.

So are these old, long Omani Yamani Sayfs missing quillons? They seem quite substantial with good blades, and they seem to have some age, so why modern and ceremonial?

For reference, here are the most recent relevant threads:
Kattara for comments (http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455)
You may know them as Omani Saifs but they will always be Kattara to me (http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15182)

All the best,
Emanuel

[Rick]

Agree, they are the oldest looking 'modern' swords that I have seen in a long time . :confused:

Can you elaborate, Jim ?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ These are Saudia swords and often found in Yemen close to the Saudia border. I have shown examples on Kattara for comment. The blades are not flexible though they often sport a single short fuller or sometimes a long fuller in the Ethiopian style which I suspect is on the first sword illustrated.
The hilt bears an uncanny relationship to the old Omani battle sword in that it appears similar yet somehow stretched. So far as I can see however they are unrelated otherwise.
I have an identical hilt fitted to an Ethiopian blade(originally German) Michael Blalock has shown similar swords from both regional souks and military museums. Occasionally they pitch up in Muscat Souk but are also very common in Sanaa.
It appears that there is a link through sword style to the Mamluke period which in turn copied styles of Abbasiid swords.

These are absolutely not Omani types. :shrug: :D

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Welcome Johnny, and these four swords are Omani kattara, and from what we have learned from Ibrahiim, who has done extensive research on these, they are primarily ceremonial swords used in Omani traditional performances. They are of course modern, and as mentioned we do not openly appraise or discuss values, but you may of course contact us privately for such matters.
I believe the blades for these are produced in Oman, and has been noted by Lofty the mounts are distinctly Omani, but not unusual for any of these weapons to travel to other locations including Yemen.

You might use the search at the top header of the page to retrieve some of the lengthy discussions that have covered these under 'kattara'. I think you will find the results greatly informative.

Thank you for posting these!!

Salaams Jim, These swords are from Saudia/Yemen and whilst they look a little bit like the Omani variant saif... or dancing saif... they aren't. The blades are quite stiff. The odd looking hilts look similar to the old Omani battle sword, though, stretched and crude. I suspect a Hadramaut hand in the blade making and other blades which I have encountered in this Red Sea variant include Ethiopian... one of which I have. Michael Blalock lists this style with photos from both Yemen and Saudia souk and museum.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[A.alnakkas]

It is safe to say that what shows up in souks (markets, like any markets around the world) is not evidence of local use. Though its really hard to pinpoint where these are from but if its from a land now encompassed by Saudi Arabia then it may offer evidence of a pre-badawi hilt type of sword? Imo Yemen is a more likely candidate as Ibrahim points out and some exist in the Yemeni museum, is it possible to contact them perhaps?

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the clarification Ibrahiim, I was hoping you would come in on this as you have been responsible for the considerable advances we have gained toward these and the range of Arabian weapons in Oman and other areas there.

I had thought these might be examples of the 'dancing' saif you have discussed, which is why I used the term 'modern' as Rick noted. In my understanding these type swords which have been termed collectively as 'kattara' in collectors circles for years, it seems that the more rigid blades were indeed combat intended, and these certainly must have diffused widely as they are well known in Zanzibar, the Omani Sultanate in East Africa.
It seems we discussed the movement of blades throughout Yemen and the southern Arabian regions both via coastal routes and caravans through interior.

I think that as Emanuel has noted, much of the classification developed through our discussions has become confusing, and possibly we might reiterate.

First of all, it is important I think, to note that the Arabian term sa'if or sayf is a collective term used for 'sword' ,not necessarily otherwise specified.
It can be used to describe a broadsword (as kaskaras, and others), a single edged sword (often denoted as a backsword) or varying forms of sabres (from nimcha to shamshir etc).

The old Omani battle sword, originally described in Robert Elgood's "Arabian Arms and Armour" (2.15) as presumed to be a kind of proto-kattara, has been now realized to be a traditionally long standing type of combat sword, typically with shorter blade, and common to Omans interior with primarily Ibathi Muslim associations. The style of these hilts are believed to have quite early stylistic origins.

The often cylindrically hilted broadswords long associated with Oman, and often with blades quite similar to those on kaskaras and other German oriented trade blades are believed to be associated with Muscat, and the trade oriented coastal regions, thus thier wide diffusion. These are typically termed 'kattara', again in a collectors sense, and I personally consider them and those found with curved blades, also kattara in the common parlance.
These are often sumptiously decorated with silver and fine mounts, as I believe these were worn as status symbols by merchants and individuals of high station.

The dancing versions of kattara, are with varying versions of the cylindrical to flattened cylinder or cuff type hilt (like these) but with blades which are dramatically flexible, a key element of the ceremonial Funoon which has been well described by Ibrahiim in discussions.

Since swords remained widely in use in an around Arabia well into the 20th century (in many places of course they still are), this brought my 'modern' term, in the sense that regardless of age of the blades, these are traditionally remounted through many generations. Naturally in many cases they are worn as accoutrements, and may often end up in souks and bazaars from trades with tribesmen as well as those which may sometimes be produced commercially.

I think that in general discussion the term kattara serves well collectively for this form of hilt, though the old Omani hilt is best noted descriptively. The others with developing or hybridized hilt are probably best described as Omani kattara variant, as well as the curved blade examples.
In focused scholarly discussion naturally more detailed description and categorization would be expected.

All the best,
Jim

[SwedeGreen]

Shokran Ibrahiim al Balooshi and thanks to all for your insight.

I've looked at many photos on the internet, have not yet begun looking for museum collections. The closest example of this hilt that I've found is on the website of Fort Antiques under "Omani Swords", item S20, photo attached. They list it as such:

"Very old Mamluke design hilt possibly 7th Century refitted on a 18th or 19th Century European (German) trade blade for the Ethiopian market . Obtained via Yemen and Muscat. This is a SAYF variant." FortAntiques

I discounted the reference to the Mamlukes until Mr. Balooshi's comment on a possible connection as an early example.

Would the blades be contemporaneous with the hilts or later trade blades?

Any insight on the time frame of the hilts and / or blades?

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

[Richard G]

Johnny,
I am intrigued by the hilts on these swords:-

1, Do they all have that window or fenestration on one side? i.e. Nos 1 and 3 show the "reverse", so's to speak, of nos 2 and 4?

2, it almost looks as if the scabbard pushes up inside the hilt so that the blade can then no longer be seen through the window. On no 4 the scabbard even seems to have a tongue designed specifically for that purpose. Is this the case?

If so, I've never seen anything like that before , or any reference to it.

Regards
Richard

[SwedeGreen]

Richard:
You are correct, there is a space between the bottom of the hilt and the blade to receive the wood scabbards. The scabbards recess into the hilts.

I must inspect them more carefully to answer about the "window" on only one side. I believe you are right but need to travel two hours to see them again at my father's. I’ll take more and better photos and number them for review.

Not noted earlier is that the design on each of the four hilts is worn more on one side. This indicates to us that they were worn by rubbing against the body or saddle through long use. Perhaps another clue to their use as battle swords rather than pageant "Kattaras".

Respectfully
Johnny

[Michael Blalock]

Hi, Johnny, nice Yemeni swords. Do you know who brought them from Yemen?

[SwedeGreen]

Michael:
I don't. A German woman and her husband. They may have been in the US Diplomatic Service in the 1960's. My Dad trades in old West memorabilia and bought these from the widow in Northern Colorado last month. I'll ask him for more details.

Johnny

[kahnjar1]

Shokran Ibrahiim al Balooshi and thanks to all for your insight.

I've looked at many photos on the internet, have not yet begun looking for museum collections. The closest example of this hilt that I've found is on the website of Fort Antiques under "Omani Swords", item S20, photo attached. They list it as such:

"Very old Mamluke design hilt possibly 7th Century refitted on a 18th or 19th Century European (German) trade blade for the Ethiopian market . Obtained via Yemen and Muscat. This is a SAYF variant." FortAntiques

I discounted the reference to the Mamlukes until Mr. Balooshi's comment on a possible connection as an early example.

Would the blades be contemporaneous with the hilts or later trade blades?

Any insight on the time frame of the hilts and / or blades?

Respectfully Requested
Johnny
FYI Johnny, Fort Antiques and Ibrahiim are one and the same.

[Richard G]

Johhny,

Thank you for the reply. I wonder if any other of our forumites have seen hilts like these, with a window opening on to the blade?

I also notice the ridges that extend down either side or the sheath element of the hilt look as if they could be welded on. Is this the case?

My guess is that the blades are the oldest parts of these swords and the hilts fitted to them sometime not too long ago, post WWII?

Regards
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Shokran Ibrahiim al Balooshi and thanks to all for your insight.

I've looked at many photos on the internet, have not yet begun looking for museum collections. The closest example of this hilt that I've found is on the website of Fort Antiques under "Omani Swords", item S20, photo attached. They list it as such:

"Very old Mamluke design hilt possibly 7th Century refitted on a 18th or 19th Century European (German) trade blade for the Ethiopian market . Obtained via Yemen and Muscat. This is a SAYF variant." FortAntiques

I discounted the reference to the Mamlukes until Mr. Balooshi's comment on a possible connection as an early example.

Would the blades be contemporaneous with the hilts or later trade blades?

Any insight on the time frame of the hilts and / or blades?

Respectfully Requested
Johnny


Salaams Johnny, As pointed out by Khanjar 1 ...I am indeed fortantiques.net and in large part the website is my own take on Omani Weapons... especially Swords and Khanjars. The huge thread on Kattara for comments http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 is a mega discussion on the broad subject of Omani fighting swords and dancing swords. In it there are references and photos of a lot of styles including the Saudia/Yemeni variant which is the central topic on this thread. I encourage anyone studying the subject to at least scan through that thread as it is full of facts and interesting twists.

Notwithstanding how the international community calls the swords the correct name for any straight sword in Oman is Sayf (or Saif) whilst curved swords are called Kattara. Kattara (not an Arabic word) is a relatively modern term perhaps instigated around 1744 at the inception of the Al Bussaidi Dynasty. It also fits the time-frame for the cross pollination of the long Omani hilt from/of the Omani dancing sword...

The Straight long flexible two edged razor sharp (new style) Omani Sayf not to be confused with the Omani Battle Sayf or Sayf Yamaani which goes back in style to the battles after 751 AD to rid Oman of the Abassiids(from Iraq) garrisoned here in Buraimi and other Omani centres to persecute Omanis who had formed a breakaway Ibaathi Muslim Sect. I will put up photographs to illustrate each sword and briefly its history later.

On top of these types there are some other curved Kattara including the Shamshir (no one calls them shamshiirs ~ they call them kattara~ because they are curved) Then there are the heavy backbladed slave trader swords..mighty things with the Omani long hilt from the dancing sword style...they are curved and so they are called Kattara. Occasionally there is a short ships weapon really simply an adaption of the Yemeni adaption of the Zanzibari Nimcha though here one has to be careful as there are lots of types as seen at Butin. The very aristocratic gold inlaid Zanzibari style was certainly an Omani style for Political heads of state, VIPs and merchants... after all Oman ejected the Portuguese from Muscat in 1650 and pursued them down the coast and did the same to them in Zanzibar... Oman owned Zanzibar for many years.

What tends to get confusing is that the generic term used for all swords is Sayf !!

It is important to grasp the vital difference between the Omani Battle Sword and the more recent dancing sword which pays homage to the old sword and the ancestors that wielded it...which has confused several learned visitors over the last 3 centuries tricking them into believing that the razor sharp flexible dancing sayf was a weapon when in fact it never saw a battle because it is and never has been a weapon..Its a dancing sword only; however, it looks battle worthy and if someone had mind to swipe with it; it would certainly work ! It could take off an arm. However it was and is only for dancing (plus it has a mock fight dance contest) and causes extreme mirth when you ask local people about its use as a fighting weapon...

Omani Battle Sword (sayf Yamaani) circa 751 ad> Dancing Sayf.circa 1744 ad

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Thank you for the clarification Ibrahiim, I was hoping you would come in on this as you have been responsible for the considerable advances we have gained toward these and the range of Arabian weapons in Oman and other areas there.

2.I had thought these might be examples of the 'dancing' saif you have discussed, which is why I used the term 'modern' as Rick noted. In my understanding these type swords which have been termed collectively as 'kattara' in collectors circles for years, it seems that the more rigid blades were indeed combat intended, and these certainly must have diffused widely as they are well known in Zanzibar, the Omani Sultanate in East Africa.
It seems we discussed the movement of blades throughout Yemen and the southern Arabian regions both via coastal routes and caravans through interior.

3.I think that as Emanuel has noted, much of the classification developed through our discussions has become confusing, and possibly we might reiterate.

4.First of all, it is important I think, to note that the Arabian term sa'if or sayf is a collective term used for 'sword' ,not necessarily otherwise specified.
It can be used to describe a broadsword (as kaskaras, and others), a single edged sword (often denoted as a backsword) or varying forms of sabres (from nimcha to shamshir etc).

5.The old Omani battle sword, originally described in Robert Elgood's "Arabian Arms and Armour" (2.15) as presumed to be a kind of proto-kattara, has been now realized to be a traditionally long standing type of combat sword, typically with shorter blade, and common to Omans interior with primarily Ibathi Muslim associations. The style of these hilts are believed to have quite early stylistic origins.

6.The often cylindrically hilted broadswords long associated with Oman, and often with blades quite similar to those on kaskaras and other German oriented trade blades are believed to be associated with Muscat, and the trade oriented coastal regions, thus thier wide diffusion. These are typically termed 'kattara', again in a collectors sense, and I personally consider them and those found with curved blades, also kattara in the common parlance.
These are often sumptiously decorated with silver and fine mounts, as I believe these were worn as status symbols by merchants and individuals of high station.

7.The dancing versions of kattara, are with varying versions of the cylindrical to flattened cylinder or cuff type hilt (like these) but with blades which are dramatically flexible, a key element of the ceremonial Funoon which has been well described by Ibrahiim in discussions.

8.Since swords remained widely in use in an around Arabia well into the 20th century (in many places of course they still are), this brought my 'modern' term, in the sense that regardless of age of the blades, these are traditionally remounted through many generations. Naturally in many cases they are worn as accoutrements, and may often end up in souks and bazaars from trades with tribesmen as well as those which may sometimes be produced commercially.

9.I think that in general discussion the term kattara serves well collectively for this form of hilt, though the old Omani hilt is best noted descriptively. The others with developing or hybridized hilt are probably best described as Omani kattara variant, as well as the curved blade examples.
In focused scholarly discussion naturally more detailed description and categorization would be expected.

All the best,
Jim[/QUOTE]





My reference is Kattara for comment at~ http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455

Salaams Jim, I hope you don't mind me numbering your paragraphs and setting the blue colour so I may reply accordingly to each one:

Para 1 Thank you for that and the support on the subject from yourself and many others on Forum. I believe the hot anvil of debate cracked this one wide open though there are a few answers to questions still to be determined such as where precisely was the Old Battle Sword made? When exactly did the dancing sword appear and thus a similar date on the conical flat long hilt...which appears on both the dancer and the slave trader weapon? Where were the dancing blades manufactured ? No evidence exists whatsoever of a European base for Omani dancing swords/blades..Red Sea swords yes, Omani dancing swords no. Where blade marks have been viewed on Omani swords these have been placed by smiths in Mussandam and other parts of Oman and where occasionally a European mark appears like moons(peter Munch style) or the running wolf they are clearly copied and in most cases roughly so.


Para 2. When I first saw these blades some time ago it set me off down a wild goose chase after a non existent sword group as I had linked them to the Old Omani Battle Sword...Sayf Yamaani... These Saudia blades are thicker and quite rigid and even a little broader at the throat. They are certainly Saudia/ Yemeni items. There may be a Hadramauti link. I cannot say if they were fighting weapons though they seem capable of it and are heavy enough. They crop up in Muscat souk and the source is Sanaa... confirmed. Whatever they were in the old days (if they were around then) they are now being sold as Arabian swords on the tourist network. I even have one of these hilts fitted with an Ethiopian (German) blade.

Para 3 and 4. Notwithstanding the International sword nomenclature... Straight swords are Sayf (or Saif) whilst curved are Kattara. As you point out ,however, the generic term for all swords here is Sayf (or Saif)

Para 5. Robert Elgood is an excellent historian and Ethnographic Arma and Armour specialist. I see that he was at Nizwa this week giving a presentation on The Said Bin Sultan Sword. (The owner ruled in Oman from 1804 to 1866 and one of his wives, the infamous Sheherazad , designed the Royal Bussaidi Hilt to a Khanjar and Sword and the Royal Turban).

In addition, however, I have crosslinked this sword through the Funoon as the traditional Omani Battle Sword. No one else has done this. This is the ancient Sayf wa Terrs from the earliest period in Ibathi history when they were fighting the Abasiid here. I have compared its design in 12 separate ways with the Abassiid weapon at the Topkapi museum and shown proof that this was a slash and chop weapon for fast work behind and with the buckler shield. (No other sword researcher has attempted this). see reference http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 post

One of the great clues which inspired me was the introduction in Islamic Arms and Armour by the late Antony North where he describes the effect of weapons freeze in Islamic lands. That sword froze from then til now! Even today it is being Iconized and worn by VIPs etc.

Para 6. The flatish cylindrical hilt seen on curved Omani Kattara is indeed the weapon chosen by Merchants and Slave traders. When did the cylindrical flatish hilt appear and apparently it appeared on the dancing sword ~ did this switch happen at the same time? What is the date of the appearance of the long flat cylinder hilt? As a provisional date I have scribbled in 1744 since I think the dancing sword appeared about then as an Al Bussaidi sword of dance in respect of the forefathers...the users of the old sword(sayf Yamaani). Then I assume it jumped from the dancer to the long curved heavy backbladed Kattara... for Vips; Royalty Merchants and Slavetraders..

Para 7. The Dancing straight Omani Sayf... (Whats in a name?...Its a Sayf) Not Kattara... Kattara aren't flexible. Sayfs are.

Para 8. I agree. Many swords get rehilted and more so for the tourist market. My Saudi hilted German bladed Ethiopian sword was fitted together in Muscat. The same has happened in Sanaa... It's part of the game.

Para 9. I don't know ... Personally if someone is referring to a blade they can use the proper description or add the details. They can call it a Sayf... and add the details but using the name Kattara which is a non Arab word that no one knows either what it means and it only arrived late on the scene... I suggest ought only be used for curved variants. Its not that vital so long as the information is clear. I think we will be living with the anomaly for a while ...ha !

" The Straights the Sayf The Curved is The Kattara..."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Ibrahiim for this excellent and detailed coverage which reiterates the intricacies of these terms as used in Arabia, and Oman in particular on this group of sometimes closely associated swords.

What I like the most, as a researcher on historic edged weapons for many years myself, is that you have yourself promoted advancing knowledge and adding informative material on these weapon forms. I think that is what makes this forum great is how these topics get discussed in detail, and we can all evaluate and assess the material into the perspective we need to effectively gain better understanding of development and terminology on these forms.

I had forgotten previous discussions with regard to the sayf Yemeni, which it appears these swords posted by Johnny would be classified if I understand correctly. It is my impression these are versions of the Omani kattara (sayf)
as described as the cylindrically hilted, guardless broadswords for higher echelon and prominant merchants in Oman and of course Zanzibar. It is interesting that these Yemeni versions carry similar hilts, with the peaked cylinder or domed pommel resembling the Ibaathi swords of Oman's interior and from quite early date in a traditional form hilts.

I have long believed personally that the profound presence of Omani merchants and traders beyond Zanzibar into Africas interior may have provided influence to similarly hilted swords such as the seme of Kenya's Maasai and the guardless sabres of the Manding in Mali. Naturally these may have developed through diffusion and influence rather than direct contact with the Omanis themselves.

Returning to the forms of 'kattara', both straight broadsword and the curved forms, it is interesting to note the use of the term for the curved swords of this type hilt as well. I am still unclear of the use of this term for the short sabres which often fall into the 'nimcha' heading, often seen in maritime circumstances. The nimcha term is often incorrectly applied, particularly in the Maghreb, where the sabres known by that term and typically mounted with trade or foreign blades, many long and straight, are called nimcha.

The forms of 'nimcha' referred to in Butin as from Zanzibar, typically with a characteristic ring projecting from the crossguard, seem to have been prevalent in Yemen and probably in other Omani ports of call. These I have always seen termed 'nimcha' and but not kattara, but like many terms, the collectors venue has often dictated terms colloquially accepted, whether correct or not.

My earlier comments on these four Yemeni sayfs were presuming from photos that these blades were the typically more modern Omani produced thin blades for the dancing type swords. As has been noted, these appear to be heavier combat worthy trade blades and probably of earlier vintage, but the mounts, though clearly old and scabbards broken, are probably well into 20th century.

As Ibrahiim has well pointed out, the dance versions of swords, like many forms of court and dress swords, can certainly become a formidable weapon which can be used in occasion to some degree, though not having capacity of full combat use.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you so much Ibrahiim for this excellent and detailed coverage which reiterates the intricacies of these terms as used in Arabia, and Oman in particular on this group of sometimes closely associated swords.

What I like the most, as a researcher on historic edged weapons for many years myself, is that you have yourself promoted advancing knowledge and adding informative material on these weapon forms. I think that is what makes this forum great is how these topics get discussed in detail, and we can all evaluate and assess the material into the perspective we need to effectively gain better understanding of development and terminology on these forms.

I had forgotten previous discussions with regard to the sayf Yemeni, which it appears these swords posted by Johnny would be classified if I understand correctly. It is my impression these are versions of the Omani kattara (sayf)
as described as the cylindrically hilted, guardless broadswords for higher echelon and prominant merchants in Oman and of course Zanzibar. It is interesting that these Yemeni versions carry similar hilts, with the peaked cylinder or domed pommel resembling the Ibaathi swords of Oman's interior and from quite early date in a traditional form hilts.

I have long believed personally that the profound presence of Omani merchants and traders beyond Zanzibar into Africas interior may have provided influence to similarly hilted swords such as the seme of Kenya's Maasai and the guardless sabres of the Manding in Mali. Naturally these may have developed through diffusion and influence rather than direct contact with the Omanis themselves.

Returning to the forms of 'kattara', both straight broadsword and the curved forms, it is interesting to note the use of the term for the curved swords of this type hilt as well. I am still unclear of the use of this term for the short sabres which often fall into the 'nimcha' heading, often seen in maritime circumstances. The nimcha term is often incorrectly applied, particularly in the Maghreb, where the sabres known by that term and typically mounted with trade or foreign blades, many long and straight, are called nimcha.

The forms of 'nimcha' referred to in Butin as from Zanzibar, typically with a characteristic ring projecting from the crossguard, seem to have been prevalent in Yemen and probably in other Omani ports of call. These I have always seen termed 'nimcha' and but not kattara, but like many terms, the collectors venue has often dictated terms colloquially accepted, whether correct or not.

My earlier comments on these four Yemeni sayfs were presuming from photos that these blades were the typically more modern Omani produced thin blades for the dancing type swords. As has been noted, these appear to be heavier combat worthy trade blades and probably of earlier vintage, but the mounts, though clearly old and scabbards broken, are probably well into 20th century.

As Ibrahiim has well pointed out, the dance versions of swords, like many forms of court and dress swords, can certainly become a formidable weapon which can be used in occasion to some degree.

Salaams Jim, Fortunately we have your guiding light and the facilities at your disposal (I refer of course to your twenty ton Ethno Arms and Armour mobile library on route 66 !!) Your broad viewpoint is always appreciated and your in depth knowledge of all these systems is the backbone of this forum.

Your last point if I may ~ It now transpires that the early visitors probably got mixed up rather than mistaken about these weapons. Some commented as I have done that these dancing swords (which they thought were war swords) were indeed fighting weapons... that could take off an arm or leg... The fact that they were viewed in combat mode ie probably in mock battle form as one of the Funoon pageants where 2 opponents fight it out...using dancing sword and Terrs shield~the winner is the fighter that can touch the opponents other thumb with his sword tip ! ( dodgey business if you ask me as the swords are sharp)... see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 for a description of Funoon which to western way of thinking is essentially pantomime or the passing down of enacted material through play-lets , dance music and poetry... instead of in written form. (It is in fact what makes the proof of the old sword sacrosanct.) But I speak not of the old sword... Tis the young one I cry halt !! An imposter by any other name yet in this case not quite...It honours the ancestors and the old Sayf Yamani....That is why it is razor sharp... Its the least the modern dance exponent can do... after all dancing isn't exactly dangerous... though with a razor sharp blade it certainly is !! As all exponents of martial arts know... You don't play fight with live blades. You do here! A dancing blade must be sharp... Omanis would rather swim with the sharks than turn out with a blunt dancing sword... never! The fact that the shield also passed over to the dancing sword further confused the visitors..I mean why have a shield if you aren't going to fight... Purely honorary purely traditional; not for fighting.

Whilst all this was going on what was the system that did away with bladed weapons... Gunpowder. Not only did we see the demise (though oft iconised) of swords but the main weapon The Spear all but vanished .. Quite simply it wasn't something easily made an Icon from... being very cumbersome... whereas swords and daggers ... no problem.

I placed an old Omani Battle Sword into the Tareq Rajeb in Quwait with a scabbard which had brass furniture. I believe most scabbards got re made... not difficult. What I think was difficult was the manufacture of the blade..which on inspection appear to be watered steel. I point toward either Hadramaut or Nizwa. Common sense would dictate that Nizwa is the answer though I hesitate without proof as yet.

Some Omani Swords below with a few interlopers thrown in ...Forumites please see if you can spot which is which ?

Yours is an interesting take on the influence of African styles on the "dancer" which I suspect came in with the Bussaidi dynasty from about 1744~ and diffused onto the slaver sword (or perhaps logically vica versa?) I simply don't have the evidence to support that yet but it is plausible.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[SwedeGreen]

Khanjar 1: Thank you for making the connection for me of Ibrahiim al Balooshi and Fort Antiques. Haha. That clears a few things up.

Richard G: Yes the hilts are welded but the welds appear to be forge welds which could have been hammered out during any era. Just a guess but could the purpose of the hilt "windows" be to easily see if the sayf is seated in the sheath?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi & Jim: Your knowledge of these is wonderful to read. Thank you. From what I am gathering do you think that I would be correct in describing these swords thus?

Saudi / Yemeni Sayfs
Made between 751 & 1744
Sheaths: Probably early 20th century


Ibrahiim al Balooshi I have sent you an inquiry on your Fort Antiques website not knowing it was you.

Respectfully
Johnny

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Khanjar 1: Thank you for making the connection for me of Ibrahiim al Balooshi and Fort Antiques. Haha. That clears a few things up.

Richard G: Yes the hilts are welded but the welds appear to be forge welds which could have been hammered out during any era. Just a guess but could the purpose of the hilt "windows" be to easily see if the sayf is seated in the sheath?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi & Jim: Your knowledge of these is wonderful to read. Thank you. From what I am gathering do you think that I would be correct in describing these swords thus?

Saudi / Yemeni Sayfs
Made between 751 & 1744
Sheaths: Probably early 20th century


Ibrahiim al Balooshi I have sent you an inquiry on your Fort Antiques website not knowing it was you.

Respectfully
Johnny


Salaams SwedeGreen No. The 4 Saudia Yemeni swords are newish ~ perhaps about 50 years old but nothing to do with Omani swords or the Omani sword dates of 751 or 1744. The scabbards are worn but probably about the same vintage(50 years?),... Solar and sand degradation on leather is very punishing.
(I replied to your inquiry the other day.)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:shrug:

[SwedeGreen]

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Thank you again. Got it, 20th Century Saudi / Yemeni Sayfs

Johnny

[kahnjar1]

Recently there were published here, some pics of the so called Omani Battle Sword which had recently had modern made covering added to the bare hilt, and scabbards made.
My question relates to the Yemeni/Saudi swords which feature in this thread. Did they ever have a covering over the metal handle, and if so, what did it look like?
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Recently there were published here, some pics of the so called Omani Battle Sword which had recently had modern made covering added to the bare hilt, and scabbards made.
My question relates to the Yemeni/Saudi swords which feature in this thread. Did they ever have a covering over the metal handle, and if so, what did it look like?
Stu


Salaams kahnjar1. This is an excellent question.

In respect of the pictures at #1, which you describe as Yemeni / Saudi swords I suspected that these were like the backyard knocking shop redone hilts on European blades at a recent thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16605 and having replaced Rhino holts later used on Jambia... the resulting swords then spuriously offered through other souks and marketed generally as ethnographic items etc etc i.e. tourist swords. ( I now suggest that this was incorrect and a re-appraisal is required insofar as these long Saudia Yemen hilts)

Conversely I have never seen a leather covered hilt on these long metal hilts AND THUS THE REAPPRAISAL OFFERED BY A CLOSER SCRUTINY OF # 1. What makes it so suspicious is the quantity at which they are appearing... Mutrah has scores of them. It is for this reason that I suspected that they were in plentiful supply having perhaps been done relatively recently and in the same time frame and reasoning as the others. In other words they appeared direct from the Yemeni / Saudia workshops direct onto the local and neighboring countries markets as metal hilts with virtually no provenance. ( THIS IS NOW REFUTED BACKED UP BY THE SCABBARD SHOTS AT 1) :confused:

Having carefully looked at #1 pictures with scabbards I begin to reframe on that hypothesis and for that reason urge a re-opening on the debate since The scabbards look like they were deliberately fitted at the same time as the hilts...which look old(Whereas most examples I have seen are without scabbards)...It begs the question "What is the provenance on these long metal hilts" ?

I think we could be looking at a species of Yemeni/Saudia Sword from the 19th C or before with a related hilt to the Omani Battle Sword except that it is stretched to conform with the longer blade for balance.

It can be noted therefor that this is a see-sawing debate as originally that was mooted on the longer thread on Omani Kattara but changed.

This is entirely different from Omani Battle Swords which as you are aware are the only true battlesword in the Omani Armoury. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16482

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams Ibrahiim. Thanks for the link to the modern dress on the Omani Battle Sword. I have taken the liberty to repost one of your pics to show how they look....
QUESTION....Do you have an irrefutible link to information that this is how these looked in the past?......or is this your impression of how they would have looked? Any photos I have seen of these swords has shown them with bare metal hilts.
The other comment which has appeared often in these threads is the possible reuse of rhino sword hilts for jambiyas. I would have thought that sword hilts would not be big enough to refashion into handles for jambiya.

Anyway...on to the subject of my original question which was to try and find out what, if any hilt covering was on the Yemeni/Saudi swords shown by SWEDEGREEN.

I read with interest your new "take" on these swords, even to suggest that they just might be a "genuine" type, rather than (as you put it) some knocked up backyard item.
There are "quite a few" of these around (as there are Omani Saifs) and it would be reasonable to assume that more would be in their country of origin than elsewhere. The four shown above, it is stated, came out of Yemen in the 1960s, and I have one on the way to me which also came from there about the same time. The actual year in this case was 1963, and I have well provenanced details of who bought it out.
Now to the scabbards. IF these were made as "tourist" items, then why would the maker bother to make a nice scabbard and then "distress" it so that it looked old. Elsewhere in this discussion on bedouin swords and the like, it has been stated that tourism as we know it today, was in its infancy in Arabia in the 1960s and the modern "skills" of aging to mislead, would not in my opinion have been thought of, or at least not widely practiced.

So......do we have a hitherto "unknown", or at least "undiscussed" line of swords? It will be interesting to see where this discussion leads.
Further to my comment above, I have posted some pics of the sword which is on the way to me. These are sellers pics but they show a couple of interesting features. This sword has silver decoration and the drag of the scabbard is well worn skin of some sort....purported to be lion, but I think more likely goat or suchlike. I really think it most unlikely that any maker would bother to use skin and then "distress" it just to fool an unwitting buyer.

Comments Gentlemen please :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Ibrahiim. Thanks for the link to the modern dress on the Omani Battle Sword. I have taken the liberty to repost one of your pics to show how they look....
QUESTION....Do you have an irrefutible link to information that this is how these looked in the past?......or is this your impression of how they would have looked? Any photos I have seen of these swords has shown them with bare metal hilts.
The other comment which has appeared often in these threads is the possible reuse of rhino sword hilts for jambiyas. I would have thought that sword hilts would not be big enough to refashion into handles for jambiya.

Anyway...on to the subject of my original question which was to try and find out what, if any hilt covering was on the Yemeni/Saudi swords shown by SWEDEGREEN.

I read with interest your new "take" on these swords, even to suggest that they just might be a "genuine" type, rather than (as you put it) some knocked up backyard item.
There are "quite a few" of these around (as there are Omani Saifs) and it would be reasonable to assume that more would be in their country of origin than elsewhere. The four shown above, it is stated, came out of Yemen in the 1960s, and I have one on the way to me which also came from there about the same time. The actual year in this case was 1963, and I have well provenanced details of who bought it out.
Now to the scabbards. IF these were made as "tourist" items, then why would the maker bother to make a nice scabbard and then "distress" it so that it looked old. Elsewhere in this discussion on bedouin swords and the like, it has been stated that tourism as we know it today, was in its infancy in Arabia in the 1960s and the modern "skills" of aging to mislead, would not in my opinion have been thought of, or at least not widely practiced.

So......do we have a hitherto "unknown", or at least "undiscussed" line of swords? It will be interesting to see where this discussion leads.
Further to my comment above, I have posted some pics of the sword which is on the way to me. These are sellers pics but they show a couple of interesting features. This sword has silver decoration and the drag of the scabbard is well worn skin of some sort....purported to be lion, but I think more likely goat or suchlike. I really think it most unlikely that any maker would bother to use skin and then "distress" it just to fool an unwitting buyer.

Comments Gentlemen please :)


Salaams Khanjar 1. When we were looking at the Sayf Yamaani.. The Old Omani Battle Sword ... in preparation for cladding the hilt in leather we looked at the Muscat National Museum and Bayt Zubair Museum for examples and took our lead from theirs. As I recall the Al Ain Museum also has an example, however, that one may not be covered. I researched another big private collection of 25 such weapons and discussed the issue with the owner and we all agreed with the Muscat Museums restoration. Naturally hilts of that vintage had lost their leather hilt covers. In addition I only saw one or two with actual scabbards though one of mine with scabbard is in the TRM Museum in Quwait. The hilts in Muscat Museums have also some with long strips of leather counterwoven in a sort of zig zag style onto the hilts and some are complete one piece covers as you show. (We followed the same style of "scabbard" in the restored swords also.)

On the subject of re used Rhino sword hilts for Jambia I have not seen any in original form thus the concept is likely based on a story that so far as I can deduce holds water and is feasible though I have never seen an original. As in all detective work it is really only proven 100% when a real MCoy turns up but the indicators are there for a reasonable assumption to prevail for now.... otherwise we would be at a standstill all over the spectrum no? Absolute certainty is a rare commodity in these matters and in the case of new information it is important to consider all things in that new light.

In view of that I think it right that the Red Sea long hilt be placed under the forum microscope since it could be a very interesting one to unravel. The blade is long and stiff and not the dancing blade of Oman by any means. Is this a fighting blade? Did it have a round tip or a point? Where was it made Yemen Saudia or both or Yemen in the old days and then the area was absorbed into Saudia? (I use the word Saudia to indicate an area rather than historically time wise) The hilt is intriguing being like a stretched version of the Omani Battler in many respects and it would be interesting to know if the two are actually related.

We have seen how the region in southern Saudia has been influenced by the Muscat Khanjar/Royal Khanjar so perhaps the same thing happened with this sword in a similar time scale i.e. mid 19th C. Or is this purely co-incidence?

You mention the leather scabbard cover ... Indeed this could be an indicator of provenance since often they covered weapons with wolf skin..which is what I suspect is on the photo...to ward off evil spirits and strengthen the sword/owner..thus it is a Talismanic effect.

On the question of hilt cover? This is a long meaty heavy blade and for practical reasons if it was a sword I see no reason why it wasn't covered but I have never seen one covered nor do I know for sure what it was used for. I am not certain where the ensemble originates either as they appear in Yemen and Saudia museums and souks. I have Ethiopian blades rehilted on this style but suggest that this is a red herring..but caution that the hilt does in fact follow the monumental style of the Horn of Africa hilts so that area cannot be ruled out yet.

Further intrigue is posed by the comparison of the hilt to the long Omani dancing hilt and the slavers curved sword style... both commomly refered to as the Long Omani Hilt and what relationship if any there is between them. Could it be for example that the Red Sea metal hilt and sword was the forerunner to the Dancing Sayf (and the slavers style hilt) or vica-versa or totally unrelated?

In conclusion the debate is, so far as I can see, entirely open, thus, any ideas from anyone are welcome.

Looking ahead I refer readers to Michael Blalocks http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10687&highlight=military+museum and an example is at #1 but it is at #14 that another question arrises... Are these Red Sea variants supposedly from Yemen / Saudia related to the sword in the Wallace collection ~ see # 14. Staying for a final moment to view the picture in the museum on the same page at reference there is what appears to be a German blade on one of the long Red Sea variant hilts. :shrug:


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all. Note to Forum. Is the blade seen held by the man at photo 1 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15241 the same sort of blade on the project sword style here? :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams all. Note to Forum. Is the blade seen held by the man at photo 1 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15241 the same sort of blade on the project sword style here? :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Sorry I just don't see what this has to do with the type of sword we are discussing. It is a completely different hilt style...... :mad:

[kahnjar1]

It would appear from the links to Michael Blalock's pics, that the long "Yemeni/Saudi" hilt in fact is a genuine article, and not some "backyard invention". Particularly, the pic of the display in the Museum seems to confirm this. It's a pity we don't know what the descriptive caption says.....
It now remains to try and establish some time line for these, and if possible their place of origin.
I have taken the liberty of reproducing Michael's pics here for reference.
Regards Stu

[T. Koch]

Hi Stu!

Sorry for a tiny bit of OT, but in which museum was the above photo taken? The middle saber with the brass hilt appears to be a Bornean/Sumatran Piso Podang - what a strange company he here finds himself in. :D


Cheers, - Thor

[kahnjar1]

Hi Stu!

Sorry for a tiny bit of OT, but in which museum was the above photo taken? The middle saber with the brass hilt appears to be a Bornean/Sumatran Piso Podang - what a strange company he here finds himself in. :D


Cheers, - Thor
Hi Thor,
I am no expert in these but also thought that Piso somewhat out of place.....I understand that the pic was taken at a Military Museum In Yemen. Michael may respond to this and clarify for us.
Regards Stu

[Gavin Nugent]

Perhaps not out of place at all....Sea trade and Arabian influences are seen in the region.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Sorry I just don't see what this has to do with the type of sword we are discussing. It is a completely different hilt style...... :mad:


Salaams kahnjar1 ~Not the hilt ... the blade. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It would appear from the links to Michael Blalock's pics, that the long "Yemeni/Saudi" hilt in fact is a genuine article, and not some "backyard invention". Particularly, the pic of the display in the Museum seems to confirm this. It's a pity we don't know what the descriptive caption says.....
It now remains to try and establish some time line for these, and if possible their place of origin.
I have taken the liberty of reproducing Michael's pics here for reference.
Regards Stu


Salaams kahnjar1 ~ Yes, I thought that's what we were doing?...trying to ascertain whether or not ? Try prefixing the concept with the tried and tested formula- where, what, why, when, how and who? It often works.

Further more~ and checking back through the forum library there is nothing set in "stone" here (scuse pun) and quite often a fresh look uncovers unforseen detail. For example what if the Mamluke style of sword blade on post #31 of this thread is related and is there any link to the Omani Battle Sword hilt? Not least in the questionaire is when did it appear, who used it (and for what?) and where? What I do know is this is from the Red Sea region and is absolutely not Omani...

#1 I believe holds the key...since it becomes clearly obvious that the hilt which has some age to it was made to fit this specific style of weapon therefor it was all made at the same time hilt, blade and scabbard...perhaps focus on that.

After that, the field is wide open for a "forum" solution. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Friends:

I'd like some help in identifying these four swords. They were purchased in Yemen and brought to the US in the 1960's. I'd like to learn, as best I can:

Where they originated?
What period / date they would have been made?
Rough value?
I realize that these may not be answerable by viewing a few photos but I'll start here.

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

Salaams SwedeGreen ~ As you can see the your thread is current again. What I believe is key to the discussion is your excellent picture of swords and scabbards at # 1 in particular the lower sword with what I would call a simple securing mechanism between the scabbard and the hilt which as part of the scabbard slides inside the long cuff. I think this is indicative of the whole lot being made at once as a deliberate all in one sword. Therefor the search is on to discover its provenance exactly. It appears in two places Yemen and Saudia. I have loosly termed it a Red Sea variant but Im sure a more accurate description will follow.

Although there are dozens of these in the Muscat Souk there are no scabbards thus the initial thought was of a possible mixed or switched hilt scenario. On revisiting your #1 that now appears not to be true moreover I suggest that this may be a breed all of its own, though, insofar as a date of appearance I urge caution and research. ( I reckon looking at the blade it could be early/mid 19th C) On the other hand the blade is apparently similar or related to others in the Red Sea armoury so I should just say that the debate remains wide open for discussion.

My initial response at #8, however, that this was not Omani but Saudia / Yemeni still stands.

Meanwhile could you please check to see if there are any blade marks on the swords?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Perhaps not out of place at all....Sea trade and Arabian influences are seen in the region.


Salaams freebooter. Absolutely correct. A lot of estates and plantations in the Far East were owned by Yemeni landlords. In addition see Wikepedia;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaush

Quote "Since the early 19th century, large-scale Hadhramaut migration has established sizable Hadhrami minorities all around the Indian Ocean, in South Asia, Southeast Asia and East Africa including Hyderabad, Bhatkal, Gangolli, Malabar, Sylhet, Java, Sumatra, Malacca and Singapore.

In Hyderabad, the community is known as Chaush and resides mostly in the neighborhood of Barkas.

Several Indonesian ministers, including former Foreign Minister Ali Alatas and former Finance Minister Mari'e Muhammad are of Hadhrami descent, as is the former Prime Minister of East Timor, Mari Al-Kathiri.

Hadhramis have also settled in large numbers along the East African coast, and two former ministers in Kenya, Shariff Nasser and Najib Balala, are of Hadhrami descent". Unquote.

For the linguists Chaush is a Turkish word which probably gave the Arabic version Jeysh (military) and the region in Hyderabad ...Barkas ...comes from the English word Barracks. Typing into search CHAUSH will unveil a part of Indo Arabian history that most people have never heard of but is fascinating reading for those that do..

The movement of Yemenis to Hyderabad was substantial thus what is important is the swordmaking potential link between Hadramaut Yemen and Hyderabad India and to what extent this migration of Arabian people to Hyderabad actually contributed to that art.

Regarding the Piso question it is entirely natural through trade and cross migration that such a weapon co-exists in the Red Sea armoury. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams kahnjar1 ~Not the hilt ... the blade. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.......yes but the purpose of this thread being reopened was to try and establish what the covering might have been on the long hilt. Subsequently this has been expanded to try and establish a time line and origin of this particular type. I have my doubts that the fitted blades would establish that, as you well know tha the range of blades (and ages of them) fitted to Middle Eastern swords varies considerably in origin and age.
Lets try not to drown the original subject with likely non related side journeys. :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

.......yes but the purpose of this thread being reopened was to try and establish what the covering might have been on the long hilt. Subsequently this has been expanded to try and establish a time line and origin of this particular type. I have my doubts that the fitted blades would establish that, as you well know tha the range of blades (and ages of them) fitted to Middle Eastern swords varies considerably in origin and age.
Lets try not to drown the original subject with likely non related side journeys. :)


Salaams. This thread will go in the direction of research and knowledge discussion and debate and thus occasionally something surprising may unfold...

We are not tied to one simple view but are open minded and able to consider freely the oblique angles... thats what the forum is about no? There is more than one approach here so why dont you broaden yours (or not) and look at the far bigger picture... and the solution to your basic question of whether of not the hilt was wrapped in leather, cloth or something else will inevitably evolve... but more importantly the relative place that this weapon has in the family of Red Sea weapons .. will out.

I just wrote to Swedegreen the thread originator and said "As you can see the your thread is current again. What I believe is key to the discussion is your excellent picture of swords and scabbards at # 1 in particular the lower sword with what I would call a simple securing mechanism between the scabbard and the hilt which as part of the scabbard slides inside the long cuff. I think this is indicative of the whole lot being made at once as a deliberate all in one sword".

The original post is key... That's where we need to look...and to research.

You never know it could be important !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[T. Koch]

Thanks Stu! Would be cool if anybody ever visiting the museum could have a look at their info on the piece. Maybe the data will have a riveting tale to tell, along the lines that Gavin suggests! I guess I shouldn't hold my breath for the museum to go online with their collection.. :D

Then maybe you guys could also get a useful pointer as to time-span for this new sword type of yours. :)


All the best, - Thor

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams. This thread will go in the direction of research and knowledge discussion and debate and thus occasionally something surprising may unfold...

We are not tied to one simple view but are open minded and able to consider freely the oblique angles... thats what the forum is about no? There is more than one approach here so why dont you broaden yours (or not) and look at the far bigger picture... and the solution to your basic question of whether of not the hilt was wrapped in leather, cloth or something else will inevitably evolve... but more importantly the relative place that this weapon has in the family of Red Sea weapons .. will out.

I just wrote to Swedegreen the thread originator and said "As you can see the your thread is current again. What I believe is key to the discussion is your excellent picture of swords and scabbards at # 1 in particular the lower sword with what I would call a simple securing mechanism between the scabbard and the hilt which as part of the scabbard slides inside the long cuff. I think this is indicative of the whole lot being made at once as a deliberate all in one sword".

The original post is key... That's where we need to look...and to research.

You never know it could be important !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.



Salaams ~ Note to Forum. The technique of covering the hilt in leather is multi faceted ..
1. It provides a much sturdier hilt.
2. The anti slip, good grip qualities of leather make it an excellent material.
3. Leather was in plentiful supply from goat, cow, camel and occasionally other tallismanic materials like wolf, hyena and fox.
4. Lastly the habit of covering iron with leather was used to negate the devil/evil link of Iron coming into direct contact with the skin. Iron was seen as attracting evil.

#1 shows how the scabbard was completed in worked leather and it would be easy to imagine that a hilt would be more susceptible to destructive wear thus all that's left is the metalic hilt... in most cases Iron though some with partial other metals in places perhaps the result of a running repair.

The museum plaque probably holds little factual evidence (as usual) Pro active information and detail on Museum exhibits is laughable at best and I would imagine it says something like "Arabian Red Sea swords," however, that is not to write off an aproach on potential information...Anything goes on that quest !

More to the point is the construction of the hilt showing that the style is in line with the technique of the Omani Battle Sword Hilt with Pommel not attached to tang though the two parts of the hilt appear welded unlike the Omani Hilt which is riveted over a wooden insert core. The pommel unlike the Omani Hilt is very crude as are the what look like remnants of quillons which are in fact incorporated into the cuff. Occasionally the cuff has the weird long window like addition which could be to enable a stuck sword to be freed or used in the role of quillons to twist an opponents blade out of his grip. The whole hilt appears as a monumental religious based iconic shape..with a number of potential provenances including African. It could even be a mass produced militia sword.

The full implications need to be examined as it may be a separate as yet unidentified type. Its provenance needs a full airing and any links to other regional variants should be carefully considered.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, Note to Forum; I discovered this interesting shot by Michael Blalock in another lead at http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?94218-Yemeni-Swords-weapons-and-armour at post #3 bringing the question to that of the Wallace collection again. See #14 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10687&highlight=wallace These swords appear to be of Yemeni pedegree though there appear to be two qualities...viz;

1.The quite basic variety that we have been dealing with which could perhaps be Yemeni Askri(Palace Guard/Militia) weapons and
2.The very highly ornate Wallace collection/ ornate version seen in para 1 above quality.

:shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Note ...To complete my overall view on this style and in reviewing similar blades to the basic project blades at #1 and similar are there relationships also connected to the blade style seen at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15241&highlight=arabian+swords in the souk.

Naturally there are various solutions, though, it may be some time before a complete analysis presents itself. Until then I would advise the usual open mind and thorough research with the hope that conclusive evidence is presented. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams All, Note to Forum; I discovered this interesting shot by Michael Blalock in another lead at http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?94218-Yemeni-Swords-weapons-and-armour at post #3 bringing the question to that of the Wallace collection again. See #14 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10687&highlight=wallace These swords appear to be of Yemeni pedegree though there appear to be two qualities...viz;

1.The quite basic variety that we have been dealing with which could perhaps be Yemeni Askri(Palace Guard/Militia) weapons and
2.The very highly ornate Wallace collection/ ornate version seen in para 1 above quality.

:shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
So we don't have to continually link to other threads, here are the pics of the Wallace Collection sword, with descriptive text.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All.

Comparing the project sword style at #1 what we appear to be looking at is the same design as shown on

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=314 See # 11 picture number 12..Scroll down 12 pictures(final picture) and see 3rd from right sword.

This Museum exhibit is in Istanbul so is likely to be "Mamluke" linked which places rather a more important hand on this style. Definitely more research needed on this !! :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams All.

Comparing the project sword style at #1 what we appear to be looking at is the same design as shown on

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=314 See # 11 picture number 12..Scroll down 12 pictures(final picture) and see 3rd from right sword.

This Museum exhibit is in Istanbul so is likely to be "Mamluke" linked which places rather a more important hand on this style. Definitely more research needed on this !! :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
........this one.....and rotated to show the right way up........the subject sword is now third from left.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

........this one.....and rotated to show the right way up........the subject sword is now third from left.


The point being that this sword now unfolds as present in at least two museums Istanbul Military and a Yemeni Military exhibit though the more basic forms at Project #1 etc appear as later forms of the same/ similar design. Late 18th -Mid 19th C ? The clear links however with a much earlier style indicate Ottoman, Mamluke and Abassiid roots, potential links to Omani forms both battle and dancing swords and a rethink on the Old Omani Battle Sword in the light of the weapon at Istanbul Military Museum ..and the Forum discussion so far... It is certainly a twisting and turning development. :D

If you look at the form of the sword style of the previous photo number 10 of #11 at the Istanbul Museum http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=314 you will see how close the blade is to the Mamluke style and where the sword begins to shape up in the relationship to what we are now looking at ... and with an eye on the Wallace type assessed as appearing in the late 1700s as a highly ornate badge of office for an important Persian dignatory and said to be of Cairo manufacture utilizing an Arabized German blade. In unearthing the truth behind the project sword we may also be poised to take on the Wallace supposition of provenance on their exhibit which is very interesting indeed.

In the thread "Kattara for comments" you will also discover that I made a comparison with the Mamluke and the old Omani Battle Sword, however, it may be that the sword I should have also compared was the project sword... as well... In this case a redraw may be required in which an even bigger and more obvious comparison is required between the two clearly similar hilt formations... The Long Metalic Red Sea Sword and The Omani Battle Sword. Both originating in pre Mamluke (Abassiid) and permeating the Ottoman Style and cunningly until now flying under the radar but now on the workbench as a very interesting discussion ... as a Yemeni Variant possibly from the Habaabi region that before about 1920 was Yemen and is now in Saudi Arabia.

As a sideline but equally related is the obvious similarity in long broadsword type between the Omani dancing sword and this Project weapon (weapon as opposed to dancing sword since its a stiff blade) Could it be that the Omani dancing sword evolved from this ... It has a long hilt that could concievably have morphed into what we recognise as the Long Omani Hilt... on both the straight Omani Sayf and curved Kattara.

It poses these broader questions which will now unravel. Bring it on !! :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Note to Library; see post 27, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=314 for developments in Red Sea swords and the design flow between Abbasiid, Mamluke, Ottoman, Yemeni and Omani variants. :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Just came across this pic in my archives while looking for something else. It shows an Omani Battle Sword with what definitely appears to be a wrapped hilt covering rather than a "fitted" one. Unfortunately I can not remember the source of this pic, which was archived in April 2010, but it clearly puts a different (or at least alternative) light on how things were finished in terms of metal hilts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Just came across this pic in my archives while looking for something else. It shows an Omani Battle Sword with what definitely appears to be a wrapped hilt covering rather than a "fitted" one. Unfortunately I can not remember the source of this pic, which was archived in April 2010, but it clearly puts a different (or at least alternative) light on how things were finished in terms of metal hilts.


Salaams kahnjar1 ~There are several ways to wrap a hilt. It can be simply wrapped round and round like the one in your photo or as one piece or woven rather in a zig zag better described as platted wrap. I note that the haphazzard way in which the sword wrapping is presented could mean that this is a random repair thus not an original form of wrap..

Interestingly on the Omani Battle Sword there are 3 holes (2 for rivvets) the top hole near the pommel is for a wrist strap. The strap anchor hole on this sword seems to be covered.

What is also important in your picture is the silver inlay script on the pommel... not on all swords... but it is thought on some perhaps to glorify a particular event/battle, a religious incantation, or to add/display the power and rank of the owner.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

You say that the "wrist strap hole" of this particular hilt is covered. I note that all three of the refinished hilts you show in your pics, and no doubt done in your workshop, also have the wrist strap hole covered, if indeed there was one there in the first place. The bare hilts you show in various pics you have posted, do not indicate holes either..........
Clarification please.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

You say that the "wrist strap hole" of this particular hilt is covered. I note that all three of the refinished hilts you show in your pics, and no doubt done in your workshop, also have the wrist strap hole covered, if indeed there was one there in the first place. The bare hilts you show in various pics you have posted, do not indicate holes either..........
Clarification please.

Clarification ~ No not quite.
If you can see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16482 all of the pictures of my Omani Battle Swords have wrist strap holes. The covered hilts that are fully covered havent had a hole bored in the leather as yet...except the centre one which in fact has a cotter pin in the top hole...which was in the original but may have been added by the previous owner. Invariably this top hole is about quarter of an inch from the pommel. Interestingly there is also a cotter pin in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16482 at #9 which is a Mamluke variant similar to the style that I compared the Omani Battle Sword to in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455

The hilts are not done in my workshops but are in pretty well natural as found condition with the rust removed...and with the core of wood replaced since the existing ones were rotted out. We used the original rivvets where possible.

The only additions are the leather work. Of course, we take pride in getting the detail right which is why we observe the museum items carefully first, thus, we would never recommend this to amateurs.

We also have a number of swords actually in museums. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Stupid question time.

There is far too much repitition within this thread and those referred to for me to stay focused.

The long hilted Omani sword, of the type pictured is only a dance sword?

Regards

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Stupid question time.

There is far too much repitition within this thread and those referred to for me to stay focused.

The long hilted Omani sword, of the type pictured is only a dance sword?

Regards

Gavin


Salaams good point I have just tried to right that but as you can see these paths cross and are at times entwined nevertheless Ive tried to clarify the issue on the other thread...The Omani Battle Sword deals with that sword and Kattara for comment with Omani Sayf and Kattara... Im sure it will all balance out... just keep an eye on everything !! :) ha!

On your question yes its only a dancing sword. An Omani Sayf. Now that one is dealt with in much detail on Kattara for comments.

You will note that this thread is neither but deals partly with the long hilt and the possible influence of what looks like at #1 a Yemeni / Ottoman / Mamluke / Abassiid variant on your Omani swords long hilt. Yours being the Straight Omani Sayf; The Dancing Sword. (See what I mean? slightly confusing) :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Salaams good point I have just tried to right that but as you can see these paths cross and are at times entwined nevertheless Ive tried to clarify the issue on the other thread...The Omani Battle Sword deals with that sword and Kattara for Comment with that and the Omani Sayf and Kattara... Im sure it will all balance out... just keep an eye on everything !! :) ha!

On your question yes its only a dancing sword. Now that one is dealt with in much detail on Kattara for comments.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you Ibrahiim, this is as I thought you indicated. However, I do not agree that these are only dance swords. Yes, they were used in dance and in today’s circles are known as dance swords but this is not as a be all and end all to the sword.

This original untouched example I have presented has a very fine stout and non flexible fighting blade in it, certainly not a dance sword.

I would suggest your post in original TVV Kattara thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 of the same thread is not it's sole purpose but just a cultural observation of the time, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony.

I know the chicken and the egg theory was discussed in the same thread about its presence in Africa where I suspect it too was used only for fighting as a trade legacy from the east.

The wonderful photos of Tipu with the same sword type, in my opinion supports these swords where a cultural fighting sword and proudly displayed as such.

The gaps in time from the period of early types with quillons you present through to the early 20th century is too great not to consider these as fighting swords even the flexible ones of old.


Regards

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you Ibrahiim, this is as I thought you indicated. However, I do not agree that these are only dance swords. Yes, they were used in dance and in today’s circles are known as dance swords but this is not as a be all and end all to the sword.

This original untouched example I have presented has a very fine stout and non flexible fighting blade in it, certainly not a dance sword.

I would suggest your post in original TVV Kattara thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 of the same thread is not it's sole purpose but just a cultural observation of the time, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony.

I know the chicken and the egg theory was discussed in the same thread about its presence in Africa where I suspect it too was used only for fighting as a trade legacy from the east.

The wonderful photos of Tipu with the same sword type, in my opinion supports these swords where a cultural fighting sword and proudly displayed as such.

The gaps in time from the period of early types with quillons you present through to the early 20th century is too great not to consider these as fighting swords even the flexible ones of old.


Regards

Gavin


Salaams Gavin Last point first ~ The old ones werent flexible... what is notable about the massive gap in time is how a simple technology like a battle Sword stood the vast time test. I suggest that the flexible sword only arrived in about 1744 (the beginning of the al busaiid dynasty) and as a pageantry sword only. I don't altogether disagree with your assessment with some of the dodgey 19th century reports dotted about from authors like Burton etc but Ingrams was firmly planted... He spent years in Zanzibar and new his turf like the back of his hand and later went on to the Hadramaut and did sterling work. Of all the scholarly observers I believe he is one of the finest. He spent decades studying the situation not as a visitor but as a fixture and fitting..
I hope the new layout of each sword having its own thread works better..

Please look again at the Tipu Tip sword... Its a massive curved Kattara.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Salaams Gavin Last point first ~ The old ones werent flexible... what is notable about the massive gap in time is how a simple technology like a battle Sword stood the vast time test. I suggest that the flexible sword only arrived in about 1744 (the beginning of the al busaiid dynasty) and as a pageantry sword only. I don't altogether disagree with your assessment with some of the dodgey 19th century reports dotted about from authors like Burton etc but Ingrams was firmly planted... He spent years in Zanzibar and new his turf like the back of his hand and later went on to the Hadramaut and did sterling work. Of all the scholarly observers I believe he is one of the finest. He spent decades studying the situation not as a visitor but as a fixture and fitting..
I hope the new layout of each sword having its own thread works better..

Please look again at the Tipu Tip sword... Its a massive curved Kattara.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

Not holding any author current or past at fault as they often have more time and want than most but Ingrams make one small single passge in passing with no other great attention to any detail about the swords he saw or any other reference to the swords from the regions applications in fighting. Because he did not write of fighting which he may not have ben exposed to or didn't want to write about should not be grounds for absolute reasoning that these swords were in the day just dance swords.

By his own admission it reached chaotic frantic levels and it is distinctly possible there were also curved swords being used in the dance fray, possiblely just most mentioned because the straight sword was so common and worn by many that a curved one were and there was overlooked.

Please see my views in your new threads on curved vs straight.

Regards

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim,

Not holding any author current or past at fault as they often have more time and want than most but Ingrams make one small single passge in passing with no other great attention to any detail about the swords he saw or any other reference to the swords from the regions applications in fighting. Because he did not write of fighting which he may not have ben exposed to or didn't want to write about should not be grounds for absolute reasoning that these swords were in the day just dance swords.

By his own admission it reached chaotic frantic levels and it is distinctly possible there were also curved swords being used in the dance fray, possiblely just most mentioned because the straight sword was so common and worn by many that a curved one were and there was overlooked.

Please see my views in your new threads on curved vs straight.

Regards

Gavin


Salaams Gavin... Cant add much to that... I have disagreed with most reports by most Europeans but Ingram to me was solid and as Secretary to the Zanzibar Ruler I found his reports accurate and interesting especially on his note about the difference between Omani and Zanzibaris dancing with weapons etc... I have no doubt that curved weapons were used for absolute sure they were..as they are also used today... Its just that the straight Omani Sayf has never been in a fight because it is the traditional dancing sword.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Salaams Gavin... Cant add much to that... I have disagreed with most reports by most Europeans but Ingram to me was solid and as Secretary to the Zanzibar Ruler I found his reports accurate and interesting especially on his note about the difference between Omani and Zanzibaris dancing with weapons etc... I have no doubt that curved weapons were used for absolute sure they were..as they are also used today... Its just that the straight Omani Sayf has never been in a fight because it is the traditional dancing sword.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Dear Ibrahiim,

I must continue to probe, it is the essence of learning and seeking truth. I ask, but why is the modern straight sword as it is seen today the traditional dancing sword, how did it become so.

Is it because the modern traditional dancing sword today is a tribute to the straight sword of forefathers who used it for not only fighting but in dance in which skills were honed, skills honoured and a ritual bonding with brothers was made... :shrug: This is where time has passed with nothing yet found recorded about why the straight sword was chosen for using in dance in the modern age we live in.
I suggest because the straight sword in the dress discussed was the common but important fighting sword of the day being flexible or not, used in dance and combat but not isolated to either. This I feel is why it become the ritual dance item today....But still lots more work is required and you are progressing the study along with avenues open for others to present known research on the subject.

Regards

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Dear Ibrahiim,

I must continue to probe, it is the essence of learning and seeking truth. I ask, but why is the modern straight sword as it is seen today the traditional dancing sword, how did it become so.

Is it because the modern traditional dancing sword today is a tribute to the straight sword of forefathers who used it for not only fighting but in dance in which skills were honed, skills honoured and a ritual bonding with brothers was made... :shrug: This is where time has passed with nothing yet found recorded about why the straight sword was chosen for using in dance in the modern age we live in.
I suggest because the straight sword in the dress discussed was the common but important fighting sword of the day being flexible or not, used in dance and combat but not isolated to either. This I feel is why it become the ritual dance item today....But still lots more work is required and you are progressing the study along with avenues open for others to present known research on the subject.

Regards

Gavin


Salaams Gavin. I believe it developed as a style from the Old Battle Sword which I have compared its general design with. In both cases, essentially, a two edged, straight, sharp, spatulate tipped blade and with a hilt in the Islamic arch shape. To assign the Terrs Buckler Shield was simply an extension of the honorary nature of the pageantry sword... relating it further to the tradition in the sword dance; The Razha within the Funoon Genre of sword dance, mimic contest, music and poetry and handed down from day 1. (751 ad)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams Ibrahiim. Thanks for the link to the modern dress on the Omani Battle Sword. I have taken the liberty to repost one of your pics to show how they look....
QUESTION....Do you have an irrefutible link to information that this is how these looked in the past?......or is this your impression of how they would have looked? Any photos I have seen of these swords has shown them with bare metal hilts.
The other comment which has appeared often in these threads is the possible reuse of rhino sword hilts for jambiyas. I would have thought that sword hilts would not be big enough to refashion into handles for jambiya.

Anyway...on to the subject of my original question which was to try and find out what, if any hilt covering was on the Yemeni/Saudi swords shown by SWEDEGREEN.

I read with interest your new "take" on these swords, even to suggest that they just might be a "genuine" type, rather than (as you put it) some knocked up backyard item.
There are "quite a few" of these around (as there are Omani Saifs) and it would be reasonable to assume that more would be in their country of origin than elsewhere. The four shown above, it is stated, came out of Yemen in the 1960s, and I have one on the way to me which also came from there about the same time. The actual year in this case was 1963, and I have well provenanced details of who bought it out.
Now to the scabbards. IF these were made as "tourist" items, then why would the maker bother to make a nice scabbard and then "distress" it so that it looked old. Elsewhere in this discussion on bedouin swords and the like, it has been stated that tourism as we know it today, was in its infancy in Arabia in the 1960s and the modern "skills" of aging to mislead, would not in my opinion have been thought of, or at least not widely practiced.

So......do we have a hitherto "unknown", or at least "undiscussed" line of swords? It will be interesting to see where this discussion leads.
Further to my comment above, I have posted some pics of the sword which is on the way to me. These are sellers pics but they show a couple of interesting features. This sword has silver decoration and the drag of the scabbard is well worn skin of some sort....purported to be lion, but I think more likely goat or suchlike. I really think it most unlikely that any maker would bother to use skin and then "distress" it just to fool an unwitting buyer.

Comments Gentlemen please :)
This sword has now arrived, and I can make further comment to what I had suggested above.
1.The skin used for the drag is not goat in my opinion, and could very well be lion as was suggested by the seller, as the remaining hair is quite thick. ....not like goat hair at all, which is much finer.
2.The fitting of scabbard to hilt is the same method as in Swedegreen's swords.....wooden tongue sliding inside the silver dressing of the hilt.
3. The hilt itself is impossible to grip securely so I would have thought that there was originally some sort of covering. Unless the users hands were VERY small the sword would slip easily in use.

Other than the above observations, the whole shows good age, and IMHO has not been artificially aged in any way... Why would one cover the scabbard with skin and then rub most of the hair off??

Regards Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This sword has now arrived, and I can make further comment to what I had suggested above.
1.The skin used for the drag is not goat in my opinion, and could very well be lion as was suggested by the seller, as the remaining hair is quite thick. ....not like goat hair at all, which is much finer.
2.The fitting of scabbard to hilt is the same method as in Swedegreen's swords.....wooden tongue sliding inside the silver dressing of the hilt.
3. The hilt itself is impossible to grip securely so I would have thought that there was originally some sort of covering. Unless the users hands were VERY small the sword would slip easily in use.

Other than the above observations, the whole shows good age, and IMHO has not been artificially aged in any way... Why would one cover the scabbard with skin and then rub most of the hair off??

Regards Stu


Salaams. The Yemeni Sword. (Long Hilt.)

This sword has nothing to do with the Yemeni items tuned up with backyard hilts to sell to tourists. That is not to say that it isn't a sword that tourists buy since many are sitting in Muscats Muttrah souk and being bought by tourists... The two, however, belong to different kettles of fish.

This sword which is related to the Ottoman type in the Istanbul Military Museum (thus Mamluke and Abbassiid) is attributed to Yemeni style of metalic longhilt in the general family of Red Sea Variants I have mentioned many times previously. It appears as a leftover copied design from Ottoman garrisons into the Yemeni armouries (probably "Askeri" equivalent palace guard or militia swords) I would suggest that these belong in the southern part of what is now Saudi Arabia but was Yemen pre about 1920. They ''seem'' to be late copies perhaps mid 18th to mid 19th C going by the blades and hilt finish. Being likely contenders of Yemeni manufacture I would suspect Hadramaut as the blade construction point... or even the other side of the water in Sudan or Ethiopia even? The blade style could conceivably have been supplied completely from late Ottoman sources. There is one picture of a man holding one such blade below... and that is on an Ottoman ~ Mamluke Hilt. Does your blade also compare with that?

They may be distantly related to the Wallace style but that is a huge step and further they may have some bearing upon the Omani longhilts both in the curved ( The Omani Kattara) and straight (The Omani Sayf) variety of blades now correctly discussed under their own separate banners.

I have seen several rehilted Ethiopian (German) blades on these hilts and have to report that most blades arrive into Muscat Souk without scabbards from Sanaa. The opener pictures at #1 puts that right immediately and the weapons can be seen as made deliberately as one unit along with the scabbard style. The blades in the Yemeni versions are not flexible other than a few inches either way.

The skin may be goat. It may also be wolf... which is far more likely as there was little credibility in decorating a scabbard with a goat piece. Wolf is the more likely from the talismanic viewpoint.

The hilt as you point out is far too thin to have no cover on it and the metal, being iron, would need to be covered since it attracts evil.

If my theory is correct these are indeed a separate breed of Sword and since they were probably militia weapons they are thus likely to be swords in the proper sense and this fact is firmly supported by the Istanbul and Yemeni museum pictures.

More interestingly they may be the trigger that influenced the design style in what I have earmarked as 18/19th C Omani Kattara and Sayf variants on long hilts since that region (specifically) was closely linked to sea trade with Muscat-Zanzibar and it was from Oman that they took their design for one of their Jambias (from either the Muscat and / or The Royal Khanjar style) in what I believe was the same period about 1744 to 1850.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams Ibrahiim,
The blade does NOT resemble that shown above. The single SHALLOW fuller more resembles that in Swedegreen's pic at #1 (top sword). The one in the above pic appears deep and narrow rather than broad and shallow.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Ibrahiim,
The blade does NOT resemble that shown above. The single SHALLOW fuller more resembles that in Swedegreen's pic at #1 (top sword). The one in the above pic appears deep and narrow rather than broad and shallow.
Stu


Salaams, It would be an advantage to show the blade would it not? I mean deep and shallow, broad and narrow are hardly indicative when a picture would be highly beneficial.. Do you think it looks like this one (The long hilted Yemeni Sword ) ? :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams, It would be an advantage to show the blade would it not? I mean deep and shallow, broad and narrow are hardly indicative when a picture would be highly beneficial.. Do you think it looks like this one (The long hilted Yemeni Sword ) ? :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Here is a pic of the fuller. The blade is 41mm (1 5/8") wide at the hilt and 5mm (3/16") thick. Flexibility is as one would expect for a combat sword.
Regards Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams. Well we are nearly there... can you show the entire blade so that normal Forum inspection may be made and so the length of the fuller and blade tip etc. can be viewed ?

I'm not sure what you are implying with your flexibility statement ...For example; Are you saying that because it's flexible it makes it a combat sword? or its lack of flexibility? How much flex does it have about 2inch or a more full 90 degrees? These are normally quite stiff blades with a few inches of flex not more.

Personally I think that this is a separate Yemeni breed and that it was a combat sword, however, I think we first have to decide what level of flexibility these swords have and in denoting what the essential blade parameters are before embarking on that equation. What you may have is a Red Sea blade stuck on a Yemeni Hilt. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams. Well we are nearly there... can you show the entire blade so that normal Forum inspection may be made and so the length of the fuller and blade tip etc. can be viewed ?

I'm not sure what you are implying with your flexibility statement ...For example; Are you saying that because it's flexible it makes it a combat sword? or its lack of flexibility? How much flex does it have about 2inch or a more full 90 degrees? These are normally quite stiff blades with a few inches of flex not more.

Personally I think that this is a separate Yemeni breed and that it was a combat sword, however, I think we first have to decide what level of flexibility these swords have and in denoting what the essential blade parameters are before embarking on that equation. What you may have is a Red Sea blade stuck on a Yemeni Hilt. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
The blade is, as I said, what one would expect from a "combat" blade---about 2"....certainly not something that would wave around in combat. Your comment about 90 degrees suggests to me something so flimsy that it would be next to useless for fighting.
Attached is a full length pic of the blade. The fuller tapers out to almost nothing about 2" back from the tip. As you can see, the tip of the double edged blade has probably been reshaped at some stage in its life, perhaps due to chipping. I am not sure if I should have this reshaped, or leave it as it is.
As an aside to the blade, I attach a further pic of the hilt. On investigation, I found that the silver collar had slipped up and was covering further hilt decoration. The blade now fits the scabbard correctly.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The blade is, as I said, what one would expect from a "combat" blade---about 2"....certainly not something that would wave around in combat. Your comment about 90 degrees suggests to me something so flimsy that it would be next to useless for fighting.
Attached is a full length pic of the blade. The fuller tapers out to almost nothing about 2" back from the tip. As you can see, the tip of the double edged blade has probably been reshaped at some stage in its life, perhaps due to chipping. I am not sure if I should have this reshaped, or leave it as it is.
As an aside to the blade, I attach a further pic of the hilt. On investigation, I found that the silver collar had slipped up and was covering further hilt decoration. The blade now fits the scabbard correctly.


Salaams kahnjar1 Yes you say that and whereas I agree completely that the stiff blade format we see here is a fighting blade in the same way that I agree the Omani Battle Sword is also...and conversely the Omani Sayf Dancing blade is not... I have to say that others will come in and say blade flexibility owes nothing to fighting prowess as a sword necessarily...

My example would be the owner of the Shotley Bridge factory who attended an exhibition with a blade furled up inside his top hat and astonished onlookers when he unleashed it before their very eyes! Having handled a lot of these swords I have to say that they are all in the region of stiff 2 inch or so flexibility and in the fighting sword frame...though I havent seen a shield ? presumably a buckler since these are spatulate tipped chopping action blades. I have to err caution however, since this is well outside my area of operations and nothing would surprise me ... Who knows? they could be another pageantry blade !

That said, the picture is pretty clear; This appears to be linked in style to the original broadswords in Military Museums in both Istanbul and Yemen. It is thus likely to be rooted in history to Ottoman, therefor Mamluke and Abbassiid weaponry. When this was manufactured is still open to conjecture but I suggest an 18/19th C ticket.

There is, I suggest, the likelihood of an indirect link with the style of hilt to the Omani Dancing Sayf and Omani Curved Kattara within the timeframe perhaps related to the advent of the Al Busaiidi Dynasty commencing in 1744. (or thereabouts) and caused by intensive trade between the two regions.

Note on silver collar: Not seen one of these on this style before... Do you think it belongs to the sword or the scabbard? I think the scabbard.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

The blade is, as I said, what one would expect from a "combat" blade---about 2"....certainly not something that would wave around in combat. Your comment about 90 degrees suggests to me something so flimsy that it would be next to useless for fighting.
Attached is a full length pic of the blade. The fuller tapers out to almost nothing about 2" back from the tip. As you can see, the tip of the double edged blade has probably been reshaped at some stage in its life, perhaps due to chipping. I am not sure if I should have this reshaped, or leave it as it is.
As an aside to the blade, I attach a further pic of the hilt. On investigation, I found that the silver collar had slipped up and was covering further hilt decoration. The blade now fits the scabbard correctly.

Nice piece Stu! I really like how it looks. Just leave the tip as is - adds character. :) It is a great blade and the scabbard is really nice with the color that it adds to the piece.

Since I've never handled one of these, I'm rather curious how one would actually use it. You described the handle as being very slippery and impossible to grip without some covering. Even if it was covered, I would imagine the balance is pretty awkward due to the lack of a pommel? I don't mean any of this in a negative way I'm genuinely curious!

[kahnjar1]

Salaams Ibrahiim......Re the silver collar. Not likely to have been part of the scabbard as it is far too small to fit. It does however fit snugly onto the hilt.

Iain..... Your comment re the blade is noted and I intend to leave it as is.
The hilt is still an open book, but I believe that there was originally a leather?? covering of some sort. Even then the hilt would be quite thin to grip, BUT....we are perhaps missing something here.
I use as an example, 19th Century British Military Uniforms, which, for the 20th/21st c man are far too small to wear, or even in some cases to put on. Obviously the "modern" man is of bigger stature, so it would be reasonable to assume, also has much larger hands than the 19th c "version". That being the case, maybe the hilt is NOT too small after all. I do not have evidence of Arabian stature in the 19th c, but I do know that modern Asian races are considerably smaller than the average European, and have MUCH smaller hands.
Perhaps this is the answer??
Stu

[Iain]

Salaams Ibrahiim......Re the silver collar. Not likely to have been part of the scabbard as it is far too small to fit. It does however fit snugly onto the hilt.

Iain..... Your comment re the blade is noted and I intend to leave it as is.
The hilt is still an open book, but I believe that there was originally a leather?? covering of some sort. Even then the hilt would be quite thin to grip, BUT....we are perhaps missing something here.
I use as an example, 19th Century British Military Uniforms, which, for the 20th/21st c man are far too small to wear, or even in some cases to put on. Obviously the "modern" man is of bigger stature, so it would be reasonable to assume, also has much larger hands than the 19th c "version". That being the case, maybe the hilt is NOT too small after all. I do not have evidence of Arabian stature in the 19th c, but I do know that modern Asian races are considerably smaller than the average European, and have MUCH smaller hands.
Perhaps this is the answer??
Stu

Hi Stu,

Makes sense. :) I was wondering not just about the size but the balance. Perhaps its just a trick of the photos but the balance looks like it would be very forward of the guard? Of course I always figure that ethnographic weapons that feel awkward usually just means we don't know how to hold them right!
:D No doubt the users of the period had no issues!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Ibrahiim......Re the silver collar. Not likely to have been part of the scabbard as it is far too small to fit. It does however fit snugly onto the hilt.

Iain..... Your comment re the blade is noted and I intend to leave it as is.
The hilt is still an open book, but I believe that there was originally a leather?? covering of some sort. Even then the hilt would be quite thin to grip, BUT....we are perhaps missing something here.
I use as an example, 19th Century British Military Uniforms, which, for the 20th/21st c man are far too small to wear, or even in some cases to put on. Obviously the "modern" man is of bigger stature, so it would be reasonable to assume, also has much larger hands than the 19th c "version". That being the case, maybe the hilt is NOT too small after all. I do not have evidence of Arabian stature in the 19th c, but I do know that modern Asian races are considerably smaller than the average European, and have MUCH smaller hands.
Perhaps this is the answer??
Stu


Salaams Khanjar 1. I think the Omanis and Yemenis were very small except in the case of the big fishermen and those of African stock. There is even a region in Oman which was famous for giants. (Bahla)

In terms of a leather wrap I suggest that it could be done in such a way that it forms a conical grip..which may indicate the potential link as the origin of both the Omani long hilts.

There is no way that I can see the hilt remaining metal because Iron attracts evil... and the grip would be useless. Wrapped in leather; not a problem as the grip would be solid, firm, strengthen the hilt and cover the iron.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Richard G]

Hello Khanjar 1,

This is all very intriguing, I have been interested in Arabian weapons for many years and can't really remember seeing a "SwedeGreen" type until this post, yet Ibrahim says South Arabia is awash with them!

I offer the following observations or speculations, some of which I realise are contradictory;-

1, The drag on your scabbard could be from a hyena. Bertram Thomas describes shooting them in the Qarra mountains.
2, When I first saw SwedeGreen's swords I wondered how the hits were made; presumably from sheets of steel or iron, rather than drawn out from an ingot, and I imagine the seams where the hilt is attached to the "block" would be difficult to do on an anvil and would require some form of welding. i.e a type of hilt that could only be relatively modern.
3, When I saw your sword I wondered whether or not these iron or steel hilts were originally covered overall in silver, (like the hilt in the Wallace collection and this one. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sh...pons-and-armour ) which has since been stripped off. If this were so it would answer a lot of questions. This speculation could apply to all these iron hilted swords.
4, Thus the decoration on your sword could have been made after the original silver was removed and the collar on your sword, an old, half-hearted attempt to restore it's former glory.

Regards
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello Khanjar 1,

This is all very intriguing, I have been interested in Arabian weapons for many years and can't really remember seeing a "SwedeGreen" type until this post, yet Ibrahim says South Arabia is awash with them!

I offer the following observations or speculations, some of which I realise are contradictory;-

1, The drag on your scabbard could be from a hyena. Bertram Thomas describes shooting them in the Qarra mountains.
2, When I first saw SwedeGreen's swords I wondered how the hits were made; presumably from sheets of steel or iron, rather than drawn out from an ingot, and I imagine the seams where the hilt is attached to the "block" would be difficult to do on an anvil and would require some form of welding. i.e a type of hilt that could only be relatively modern.
3, When I saw your sword I wondered whether or not these iron or steel hilts were originally covered overall in silver, (like the hilt in the Wallace collection and this one. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sh...pons-and-armour ) which has since been stripped off. If this were so it would answer a lot of questions. This speculation could apply to all these iron hilted swords.
4, Thus the decoration on your sword could have bee made after the original silver was removed and the collar on your sword, an old, half-hearted attempt to restore it's further glory.

Regards
Richard


Salaams Richard~ Can you point me to the quote where I said that?... I may have said the Souk in Muttrah is awash with them because it is... but I dont think I said South Arabia.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Richard G]

Sorry Ibrahiim,
I agree you did not say South Arabia was "awash" with them. But you did say there were dozens in the Muscat soukhs and they were common in Sanaa. This was an attempt to paraphase with exaggeration to highlight my surprise at finding these are quite common.
Regards
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Sorry Ibrahiim,
I agree you did not say South Arabia was "awash" with them. But you did say there were dozens in the Muscat soukhs and they were common in Sanaa. This was an attempt to paraphase with exaggeration to highlight my surprise at finding these are quite common.
Regards
Richard


Salaams Richard G... Ah that was the souk in Muttrah ... I had about 20 of them lined up there but couldnt decide to take any but they told me they had got them in Sanaa...or through a Sanaa trader. The project weapon indeed looks like its got Hyena wrapped about the base. I dont know enough about these scabbards and to what extent the strange collar is original but it may be... I just cant imagine going in to bat with a soft silver content sleeve as an extension of the iron cuff... I remain puzzled about that .
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Hi Stu,

Makes sense. :) I was wondering not just about the size but the balance. Perhaps its just a trick of the photos but the balance looks like it would be very forward of the guard? Of course I always figure that ethnographic weapons that feel awkward usually just means we don't know how to hold them right!
:D No doubt the users of the period had no issues!
Sorry Iain, Missed that bit about balance. Anyway the point of balance is 4" below the silver collar,.....11" from the MIDDLE of the grip. The balance point is close to that of other swords I have....within about 1 1/2".
Stu

[kahnjar1]

Hello Khanjar 1,

This is all very intriguing, I have been interested in Arabian weapons for many years and can't really remember seeing a "SwedeGreen" type until this post, yet Ibrahim says South Arabia is awash with them!

I offer the following observations or speculations, some of which I realise are contradictory;-

1, The drag on your scabbard could be from a hyena. Bertram Thomas describes shooting them in the Qarra mountains.
2, When I first saw SwedeGreen's swords I wondered how the hits were made; presumably from sheets of steel or iron, rather than drawn out from an ingot, and I imagine the seams where the hilt is attached to the "block" would be difficult to do on an anvil and would require some form of welding. i.e a type of hilt that could only be relatively modern.
3, When I saw your sword I wondered whether or not these iron or steel hilts were originally covered overall in silver, (like the hilt in the Wallace collection and this one. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sh...pons-and-armour ) which has since been stripped off. If this were so it would answer a lot of questions. This speculation could apply to all these iron hilted swords.
4, Thus the decoration on your sword could have been made after the original silver was removed and the collar on your sword, an old, half-hearted attempt to restore it's former glory.

Regards
Richard
Hi Richard,
1>The drag COULD be Hyena, but I am no expert on skins so that will have to remain unknown for now.
2>Welding has been around for centuries----blacksmith forges etc. My guess is hot metal beaten over a wooden core. NO SIGN OF MODERN TYPE WELDING.
3>Not likely I suspect though obviously one can not be certain.......
4>Doubt it very much...I personally think these are NOT swords of the rich, but probably of lower classes.....I would bet the decoration was always there. Even though none appears on Swedegreens swords, it does on some of those shown by others in this thread.
Stu

[kahnjar1]

Salaams Richard G... Ah that was the souk in Muttrah ... I had about 20 of them lined up there but couldnt decide to take any but they told me they had got them in Sanaa...or through a Sanaa trader. The project weapon indeed looks like its got Hyena wrapped about the base. I dont know enough about these scabbards and to what extent the strange collar is original but it may be... I just cant imagine going in to bat with a soft silver content sleeve as an extension of the iron cuff... I remain puzzled about that .
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Salaams Ibrahiim. I agree with your comment about the silver collar being fragile in combat, but we are of course assuming that it was always there. My thinking is that it was possibly added later, perhaps to embellish the sword for dress wear rather than combat use. Either way, it obviously belongs to the particlar hilt, as it fits snugly. As you will be aware, many swords are "dressed up" so that they look impressive when worn.
Stu

[Iain]

Sorry Iain, Missed that bit about balance. Anyway the point of balance is 4" below the silver collar,.....11" from the MIDDLE of the grip. The balance point is close to that of other swords I have....within about 1 1/2".
Stu

Hi Stu, thanks, exactly what I wanted to know. :) Seems really far out, but if its consistent with others it must have simply been the norm for this type.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Ibrahiim. I agree with your comment about the silver collar being fragile in combat, but we are of course assuming that it was always there. My thinking is that it was possibly added later, perhaps to embellish the sword for dress wear rather than combat use. Either way, it obviously belongs to the particlar hilt, as it fits snugly. As you will be aware, many swords are "dressed up" so that they look impressive when worn.
Stu


Salaams kahnjar1 Yes agreed on the later addition of the silver collar adornment which is completely in keeping with add-ons to weapons of the region.

On reflection it could simply be a clever later add-on to better secure the sword in its scabbard.

I think the region is the area in Saudia that was once Yemen and from which Habaabi (the main city) gives its name to the dagger "The Habaabi". The main port is Jazzan. From the viewpoint of Ethnographic Arms I think this region is timelocked.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams kahnjar1 Yes agreed on the later addition of the silver collar adornment which is completely in keeping with add-ons to weapons of the region.

On reflection it could simply be a clever later add-on to better secure the sword in its scabbard.

I think the region is the area in Saudia that was once Yemen and from which Habaabi (the main city) gives its name to the dagger "The Habaabi". The main port is Jazzan. From the viewpoint of Ethnographic Arms I think this region is timelocked.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Salaams Ibrahiim, I note that you have refered to Habaabi as a region/city a number of times in various posts you have made.
Can you please post a map showing this region/city, as any time I have GOOGLEd it, there is no reference to any such place. :confused:
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Ibrahiim, I note that you have refered to Habaabi as a region/city a number of times in various posts you have made.
Can you please post a map showing this region/city, as any time I have GOOGLEd it, there is no reference to any such place. :confused:
Stu


Salaams kahnjar1 ~ It was indeed a very tricky place to pin down not least because of the spurious indicators on the web and its seemingly mythical situation, however, it is in fact south west of Ta' izz between there and the Red Sea coast. I will make that very clear it is in Yemen. Hababi city appears to have given its name to the dagger of an extensive region which after about 1920 was incorporated into Saudi Arabia (The Asir border region etc) Clearly the whole region now stradles both borders ..The map of the region is at http://mapcarta.com/12505012 but there is very little detail other than some stuff I posted on The Omani Khanjar site and which I have now corrected.
I believe Jazan was a major contributor to Muscat/ Yemen / Arabia trade in history and was a key stop on the trade route to Zanzibar and Africa. Moreover it would have been a major drop off point connecting to the massive camel trains going north since the prevailing almost 24/7 and year round winds prevailed from almost due North preventing sailing ships from accessing direct to Ports in the North.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams kahnjar1 ~ It was indeed a very tricky place to pin down not least because of the spurious indicators on the web and its seemingly mythical situation, however, it is in fact south west of Ta' izz between there and the Red Sea coast. I will make that very clear it is in Yemen. Hababi city appears to have given its name to the dagger of an extensive region which after about 1920 was incorporated into Saudi Arabia (The Asir border region etc) Clearly the whole region now stradles both borders ..The map of the region is at http://mapcarta.com/12505012 but there is very little detail other than some stuff I posted on The Omani Khanjar site and which I have now corrected.
I believe Jazan was a major contributor to Muscat/ Yemen / Arabia trade in history and was a key stop on the trade route to Zanzibar and Africa. Moreover it would have been a major drop off point connecting to the massive camel trains going north since the prevailing almost 24/7 and year round winds prevailed from almost due North preventing sailing ships from accessing direct to Ports in the North.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
......so Al Hababi is somewhat of a MYTHICAL place then ?? To keep THIS thread on line, I have posted a new thread....Saudia Jambia for Identification.... This item was previously identified by you as Habaabi.
Stu

[David]

Salaams Ibrahiim, I note that you have refered to Habaabi as a region/city a number of times in various posts you have made.
Can you please post a map showing this region/city, as any time I have GOOGLEd it, there is no reference to any such place. :confused:
Stu
There is a city apparently called Al Hababi SW of Ta'izz. Is this the place you refer to?
http://www.newstrackindia.com/information/locations/Yemen/2638224-city-al-hababi.htm

[kahnjar1]

There is a city apparently called Al Hababi SW of Ta'izz. Is this the place you refer to?
http://www.newstrackindia.com/information/locations/Yemen/2638224-city-al-hababi.htm
....maybe...... but I find it interesting that there appears to be no road or ACTUAL place named as per other nearby towns.....
I find it difficult to believe that an apparently non named town has given its name to a particular dagger style........but then I am not a resident of the area.....
Ibrahiim himself expresses doubt as to the actual placement of the town/city....

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

......so Al Hababi is somewhat of a MYTHICAL place then ?? To keep THIS thread on line, I have posted a new thread....Saudia Jambia for Identification.... This item was previously identified by you as Habaabi.
Stu

Salaams kahnjar1,
No I dont express doubts to its existence... and No it exists ...see the map. http://mapcarta.com/12505012 and there are now others at recent posts .. The items (daggers and I don't know what they call them down there I assume Jambia) are called Habaabi in Oman with a long aa ... from the area covered by the city of Hababi... and which appears to encompass a large swathe of the territory even up to the ASIR and on both sides of the border; Saudia and Yemen. Certainly that entire area in the heel of the Yemen would have been trading via the Red Sea ports with Oman and Zanzibar etc.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.