Too Tiny?

[A.alnakkas]

Hey guys,

This is my first go on a Moro item. I always wanted one, but either was too broke or never had the balls to buy one, didnt want to screw up :P

But it seems that I may have screwed up. I bought this Gunong on ebay, it was a hastey purchase for little cash and I thought its about time. Was shocked when it arrived! it was so tiny :D my guess its some letter opener? such a shame if it is, the blade is made of nice steel.

The blade is 4.5 inches long, the full length is 6.5 inches.

[David]

Nope...don't think it's a letter opener... :)
Some gunongs are, indeed a little on the small side, those yours does seem pretty small. Perhaps it was made for a woman or a child. Do the fittings seem to be silver? Is the pommel ivory? It almost looks a bit like clam shell, which would probably be rarer than ivory, but i can't tell from the photos.
Your blade looks like it isn't laminated, but i would give it a light etch with vinegar to be sure.
Bottom line, i would say that you did not screw up, unless you paid a great deal of money for this. :shrug:

[A.alnakkas]

Nope...don't think it's a letter opener... :)
Some gunongs are, indeed a little on the small side, those yours does seem pretty small. Perhaps it was made for a woman or a child. Do the fittings seem to be silver? Is the pommel ivory? It almost looks a bit like clam shell, which would probably be rarer than ivory, but i can't tell from the photos.
Your blade looks like it isn't laminated, but i would give it a light etch with vinegar to be sure.
Bottom line, i would say that you did not screw up, unless you paid a great deal of money for this. :shrug:

Hey David!

Sounds good I guess. Will give it an etch soon and see whats on the blade. I thought the pommel is bone, now its dark so will get some zooms on it tommorow!

Didnt pay much, compared to my usual field :P

[David]

It seems a bit too white for bone, but photos can be deceptive with colors sometimes. :shrug:

[Gavin Nugent]

Nope...don't think it's a letter opener... :)
Some gunongs are, indeed a little on the small side, those yours does seem pretty small. Perhaps it was made for a woman or a child. Do the fittings seem to be silver? Is the pommel ivory? It almost looks a bit like clam shell, which would probably be rarer than ivory, but i can't tell from the photos.
Your blade looks like it isn't laminated, but i would give it a light etch with vinegar to be sure.
Bottom line, i would say that you did not screw up, unless you paid a great deal of money for this. :shrug:

Perhaps the straight blade and small size saw it used with Betal nut?

[Battara]

Other possibility: it is an early form. Not sure, but smaller forms with out lots of lamination were indicative of earlier forms.

Wish there was more information on these.

I agree though is was not a waste of money.

[Andrew]

Agree w/David--looks like the color of ivory to me.

Was/is betel chewing regularly practiced in the PIs?

Reminds me of the Thai/Burmese "priest knives", but that's really just based on size...

[David]

Other possibility: it is an early form. Not sure, but smaller forms with out lots of lamination were indicative of earlier forms.
I think we all wish there was more info on these blades. :)
From the more bulbous pommel form it would seem it is not an "older" form. The metal work looks fairly nice, but i would still be interested in knowing if it is silver or some other white metal.
...and that would be a yes AFAIK Andrew....betel nut does indeed have a history of use in the Philippines.

[Indianajones]

Will give it my 'go'; not a bad buy would my humble opinion be. The pommel does look like ivory (think too thick mass to be bone) and so white because its 'bleached' by sun n age (and not being handled much). Am wondering what kind of ivory.

Blade may indeed be bit on the simple side, but one cant have it all on one piece, can we?! To my opinion not specifically an early piece as than they would not have used so much silver/metalwork on the sheath (the more early, the rarer metal/silver).
<for betelnut one rather need a more hacking sort of blade as these nuts are hard to crack. Dagger has little use with them>

All in all a nice honest little gunong with a ivory pommel. Sometimes small can also be a plus! Congratulations I would say!
Buy two more and you'l have a collection of them . . . :D

[A.alnakkas]

Thanks all! am really glad that my first Moro purchase is not that bad hehe

[T. Koch]

It could indeed be dirty ivory, but the grey-ish areas of the hilt suggest bone to me. These areas would be some of the outer grain of the spongiose core tissue. Ivory is much more solid and usually whiter and the material has a more 'live' glow. Hard to explain, but a focused picture of the handle surface should be able to decide it.

Very cool little knife in all regards. I've never personally seen a gunong in hand, so I am also surprised by the size. I like it even better now that I know that it is so small - such a great little stabber! :D

Thanks for sharing!


Best wishes, - Thor

[A.alnakkas]

Hey guys!

Here are zooms on the hilt. Going to etch the blade whenever am free.

The fittings seem to be silver but cant be sure.

[David]

I looks like it might be Tridacna (giant clam shell). :shrug:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5786&highlight=clam+shell

[A.alnakkas]

I looks like it might be Tridacna (giant clam shell). :shrug:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5786&highlight=clam+shell

Hey David,

Hilt is abit transclucent.

Does transclucency mean anything? :shrug:

[Rick]

Hey David,

Hilt is abit transclucent.

Does transclucency mean anything? :shrug:

Lofty, tap the handle against your tooth; if it feels like stone, it's Tridacna .

[Indianajones]

Does indeed look like tridacna at first; but look at the fine (greyish) hairline at one side (first close up). >judging purely on pictures can be hard as when touching one would know it instantly<
Although I suggested ivory first I think -seen those brown specles on the other side- it is bone. I guess carabaubone could be thick enough on certain boneplaces to make a hilt out of as such.
The silver would be an alloy with silver and nickle in it.

[David R]

Looks a nice well made piece to me, sometimes small is beautifull. Does NOT look like a paper knife or other tourist piece.

[Robert]

A.alnakkas, try polishing the hilt with a little wax using a piece of medium textured cloth like a wash cloth and see what happens. If it is shell it will look like mother of pearl when polished and if bone or ivory it will help bring out the graining so to help in identifying which it might be. A very nice item regardless of hilt material, my congratulation on your new acquisition.

Regards,
Robert

[Battara]

From the more bulbous pommel form it would seem it is not an "older" form.
I forgot about that - very good point. I agree that this is a big indication of being a circa 1930s piece.

Also the more I look at this the more I am inclined to agree that this may be clam shell.

[T. Koch]

My vote still goes for bone, although I guess, it theoretically could be from the outer layers of the clamshell, where the material is more mottled and of lesser quality. In my experience though, craftsmen usually take from nearer the center, where the shell is harder and more compact.
An example would be these Japanese Go-stones, also carved from some unknown Tridacna-species:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TheX9SN2pDw/RZay9jvPtXI/AAAAAAAAAE8/a3fLRz9cPxk/s1600/32-46.jpg

- and yes, I am aware that these pictured, are expensive über high-end stones, but they serve to illustrate that purity is an ideal when it comes to worked clamshell.

Rick's suggestion is good IMO. If the handle feels hard, cold and stone-like to the touch, it's probably Tridacna-shell. If you could carefully burn some unexposed part of the hilt, you would quickly be able to determine whether the material is organic or mineral.

*Wouter* I agree with you, but I'm sceptical about the source being caribou though. Unless of course you're referring to the epic 18th century Moro-raid on Santa's Sleigh? It was a massacre... Antler, red noses and little elf limbs everywhere... :D
Don't you think it's more likely to be from sambar deer or something likewise more local?


Best wishes, - Thor

[Robert]

Thor, I believe that Wouter is referring to carabao/water buffalo bone not caribou though an 18th century Moro-raid on Santa's Sleigh could have produced some unique hilt materials.:eek: :D

Robert

[Sajen]

Look indeed like Tridacna but like Wouter write is the hairline crack is a little bit unusual but could be possible. :shrug: Like Rick write it is a good test to test the hardness of the material additional have Tridacna a cold feel while bone have a more warm feel like ivory. BTW, nice little gunong. :)

Regards,

Detlef

[A.alnakkas]

Hey guys thanks!

Well I dont know how stone feels if I would touch it with my teeth, not exactly something I do usually lol and kinda frightened from putting an item held by probably lots of people in my mouth:P

Though the temprature test is more viable, especially today since my AC broken (just fixed it, hoorai!) so room was pretty hot. Surprisingly the item was cold to touch while my other items next to it (all had wooden hilts) were room temprature hot.

Lotfy

[Sajen]

Hey guys thanks!

Well I dont know how stone feels if I would touch it with my teeth, not exactly something I do usually lol and kinda frightened from putting an item held by probably lots of people in my mouth:P

Though the temprature test is more viable, especially today since my AC broken (just fixed it, hoorai!) so room was pretty hot. Surprisingly the item was cold to touch while my other items next to it (all had wooden hilts) were room temprature hot.

Lotfy


Hi mate,

when it feel cold by touch it is most probable Tridacna, the cold feel is typical. Rare material, concrats!

BTW, I am green with envy about the temperature at your home, here in Germany it becomes cold! :D

Regards,

Detlef

[A.alnakkas]

Hi mate,

when it feel cold by touch it is most probable Tridacna, the cold feel is typical. Rare material, concrats!

BTW, I am green with envy about the temperature at your home, here in Germany it becomes cold! :D

Regards,

Detlef

Thanks Detlef :D Wow lol and I thought I had a bad purchase :P

Trust me, you dont want a room reaching 35 degrees. Its 45 degrees outside, certainly lower than a few months ago when it reached as high as 56.

Lotfy

[Sajen]

Thanks Detlef :D Wow lol and I thought I had a bad purchase :P

Trust me, you dont want a room reaching 35 degrees. Its 45 degrees outside, certainly lower than a few months ago when it reached as high as 56.

Lotfy


No, I don't need 45 degrees outside, but we have had 10 in the early morning and now only 15, too cold for me! :D ;)

Detlef

[Indianajones]

I feel this 'material issue' is coming to a climax . . . . .! he he. On top of that I may come back from my opinion of it being bone as, when I look again at the pics- it could indeed be also tridacna.
Indeed I was not reverring to Santa's reindeer Thor but to the Philippine waterbuffalo called 'carabau' (as common with Phil. culture n items I assumed others know this term too).

Difficult to give directions/advise on this matter; can only say tridacna is like marblestone and bone would be alike very hard ebonywood (to give material comparisson).
Howabout this; tap the handle on glas n when it says 'TOK TOK' it is tridacna n when it does 'POK POK' its bone . . . . . :D
(not much of advise is it . .?!?!?)

[Sajen]

Indeed I was not reverring to Santa's reindeer Thor but to the Philippine waterbuffalo called 'carabau' (as common with Phil. culture n items I assumed others know this term too).


I know this term as well, in Indonesia spelling/writing it is : kerbau :)

[Sajen]

Difficult to give directions/advise on this matter; can only say tridacna is like marblestone and bone would be alike very hard ebonywood (to give material comparisson).
Howabout this; tap the handle on glas n when it says 'TOK TOK' it is tridacna n when it does 'POK POK' its bone . . . . . :D
(not much of advise is it . .?!?!?)

Hi Wouter,
I think the cold feel in hand is a certain indication, isn't it?

[A.alnakkas]

Detlef, I would love a 15C temperature haha! cant wait for winter.

Wouter, I tapped the hilt on a glass and it made a TOK sound. Was Tridacna used for bigger Moro stuff?

[David]

My vote still goes for bone, although I guess, it theoretically could be from the outer layers of the clamshell, where the material is more mottled and of lesser quality. In my experience though, craftsmen usually take from nearer the center, where the shell is harder and more compact.
Thor, did you look at the examples of Tridacna hilts that i linked to above. While the purity of the material might be of more importance in, say, the Japanese culture, it should certainly be clear from the examples in the thread that i posted that it is not that much of an issue in the Malay world. :shrug:

[T. Koch]

*David* Thank you for drawing my attention to your link - again. I had indeed missed it the first time around. I see now, that the mottled parts of the shell are indeed being used - at least when we're talking keris hilts. I just find this peculiar. I have myself manually destroyed dozens of Tridacna-shells and even fairly small half-shells, say the size of your average popcorn bowl have maybe 6-7 cm thick shells. Especially the area near the umbo (hinge) of the clam, is comprised of plenty of dense, white material.

Atm. I tend to agree with Wouter: I'm still indecisive, but after seing the phtographs Rick linked to, I'm leaning more towards clam than bone. It's not however TOK-TOK. Bone against glass goes PLOK-PLOK, while clamshell against glass goes KLINK-KLINK. :D The problem with onomatopoeia is the same as with the hot/cold-distinction: They're both very subjective.. :D

I still say torch it - it's the only way to know for sure! If dissassembly is not an option, I guess comparing it with the sound of a stone against glass, is the next-best thing: They should sound about the same: both harder than bone.

- Very cool discussion. I'm very grateful to have learned this and seen the above photos. Thanks everybody!


All the best, - Thor

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Thor,

The best way to describe the voice I heard is that its similar to tapping 2 pieces of glass. There is a ring to it like a bell.

[kai]

Hello Thor,

I have myself manually destroyed dozens of Tridacna-shells
Aren't these auctioned off for the good cause?


even fairly small half-shells, say the size of your average popcorn bowl have maybe 6-7 cm thick shells. Especially the area near the umbo (hinge) of the clam, is comprised of plenty of dense, white material.
I have wondered about this, too. While the large specimens may have been quite difficult to obtain, this may be more a matter of priorities for utilizing/trading the best pieces.


I still say torch it - it's the only way to know for sure!
Is the smell really that different? (dense bone, tooth, and clam all retaining some amount of organic material)

If you have a good magnifying glass, you should be able to tell from the microstructure, especially with polished surfaces: clam does exhibit tiny, undulated growing rings which seem to be quite distinctive in the few examples I've closely examined.


If dissassembly is not an option, I guess comparing it with the sound of a stone against glass, is the next-best thing: They should sound about the same: both harder than bone.
With either sound or touch, I agree that it would be good to utilize suitable pieces for comparision: polished marble vs. bone and ivory. Having said that, the difference in weight is pretty obvious if you're used to objects of similar size.

Regards,
Kai

[Ferguson]

These really small gunong are not uncommon. I have a couple. Here's my smallest. Yours looks nice.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8003&highlight=small+gunong

Steve

[Indianajones]

Personally I am going towards the opinion it is tridacna, although that would be -I think; though am not an expert on Visayan/moro- quite more special n interesting than bone/ivory.

Thor; 'The problem with onomatopoeia is the . . . . '
I like mine hot and with some ketchup pls? :D
Whatever the material is bone or tridacna I would really leave it and not burn or wax it; its looking lovely as it is n its just a matter of time to know its real material.

Actually tridacna is/can be quite breakable material and not much used for large or long items. If it falls on a hard floor it will break. I only know this material from New Guinea shellmoney rings (socalled 'yua') and have seen only few tridacna Indonesian kerishandles.

[Royston]

Gents

I have always thought that the larger of these is bone and the other is shell ( with the opalescence ). The "bone" looks very similar to Loftey's example. My two are quite different from each other.

Regards
Roy

[Sajen]

Gents

I have always thought that the larger of these is bone and the other is shell ( with the opalescence ). The "bone" looks very similar to Loftey's example. My two are quite different from each other.

Regards
Roy

Hello Roy,

I think yours with the shell pommel isn't from Tridacna shell. Tridacna don't have this opalescence. At least I never have noticed this by Tridacna.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

Hello Roy,

I think yours with the shell pommel isn't from Tridacna shell. Tridacna don't have this opalescence. At least I never have noticed this by Tridacna.

Regards,

Detlef
I Think Roy is suggesting that the larger one might be Tridacna, not the other one. The smaller one is obviously M.O.P.
Looks nice BTW. :)

[T. Koch]

I think Roy means it as he says it. If the small one of Roy's is indeed Tridacna it looks very similar to the material of this keris-hilt from the Tridacna-thread you linked to, David:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=26325&stc=1

Notice the similar haze'y streaks? Couldn't it be that some parts of the clam-shell exhibit these bands - maybe the inner part of the shell near the animal itself? As you point out David, the material looks a lot like mother of pearl (MOP), however Tridacna doesen't produce MOP per sé, but the shell does get very porcelain-like layers on the very inside. I also seem to remember seing Go-stones with similar bands. The problem is that I've never actually made anything out of Tridacna, I've only whacked it with a hammer. :D

- Thanks for sharing them Roy - they look awesome!!

*Lotfy* If it sounds like glass or similar hard and mineral-like, I'm now 100% on the Tridacna-wagon as well.

*kai* Hi my friend! Please allow me to get back to your questions later when I have more time. :)


For now best wishes, - Thor

[Indianajones]

Hi Roy,
to me your larger gunonghandle certainly looks like shell and most possibly tridacna. Tridacna will get a lovely 'milky' color when handled much. This may be the difference with the initial small dagger of this thread which may not been handled much and just stored long (hence the different patine).

Depending on the size of your handle it may also be the core of another large shell; a type of conchshell (also often used as artifacts in Tibet/Nepal) which does get opalescent features after intense use/bodycontact. This type of shell is more intens or intrinsically white (while tridacna is more 'milky' 'broken' white as we call it). They can have a massive core but am not sure of small cavities in it.

[David]

I think Roy means it as he says it. If the small one of Roy's is indeed Tridacna it looks very similar to the material of this keris-hilt from the Tridacna-thread you linked to, David:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=26325&stc=1

Notice the similar haze'y streaks? Couldn't it be that some parts of the clam-shell exhibit these bands - maybe the inner part of the shell near the animal itself? As you point out David, the material looks a lot like mother of pearl (MOP), however Tridacna doesen't produce MOP per sé, but the shell does get very porcelain-like layers on the very inside. I also seem to remember seing Go-stones with similar bands. The problem is that I've never actually made anything out of Tridacna, I've only whacked it with a hammer. :D
Yes Thor, i agree, Roy means it as he says it. Please read his words again.
"I have always thought that the larger of these is bone and the other is shell ( with the opalescence ). The "bone" looks very similar to Loftey's example."
In other words, if the "bone" (the larger one) looks very similar to Lofty's example, and Lofty's example is indeed tridacna, then perhaps the Roy's larger hilt is also tridacna.
I am as sure as i can possibly be without having it in hand that Roy's smaller example is indeed MOP and i completely disagree that this material looks like the higher grade tridacna keris hilt that is in the thread i linked to. That hilt is a cream color (not white like Roy's) and does not exhibit the opalescence seen in Roy's smaller gunong.

[VANDOO]

www.naturalhistorymag.com/editors_pick/1939_11_pick.html

THIS ATTACHMENT IS THE STORY OF THE LARGEST PEARL IN THE WORLD. IT CAME FROM A TRIDACNIA GIGAS SHELL AND IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY HEARD THE STORY IT IS A GOOD ONE. AND NO ONE HAS TOPPED THIS 14 POUND PEARL YET.
THESE SHELLS CAN GET UP TO AT LEAST 5 FEET LONG AND CLOSE TO 500 POUNDS. I PERSONALLY HAVE SEEN TWO THIS SIZE ONE ALIVE AND ONE DEAD AS WELL AS MANY OTHERS IN THE 200 TO 300 POUND RANGE.
THE PURITY OF THE SHELL DEPENDS ON THE LOCATION AND PURITY OF THE WATER WHERE THE CLAM GROWS. INSIDE LAGOONS IN SHALLOW WATER IS MORE LIKELY TO HAVE INCLUSIONS LIKE YOUR EXAMPLE. OUTSIDE REEFS WHERE THERE IS GOOD CURRENTS MAKES FOR BETTER SHELL. I VOTE CLAM SHELL FOR THE HILT. ANTLER AND BONE MAY GET CONTAMINATION IN THE PORES BUT IT IS VERY SELDOM AN INCLUSION AND THE FINISH IS DIFFERENT FROM CLAM SHELL.

[David]

Thanks Barry. Here is another link. It's a shame that this pearl isn't iridescent like regular pearls are. Now that would be a sight. Still the size is amazing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_of_Lao_Tzu

[T. Koch]

Hello Thor,


Aren't these auctioned off for the good cause?

Yes, that is indeed the approach of the CITES Management Authority (M.A.) of many countries. The legislation as such allows for the M.A. to auction off confiscated effects from species listed on CITES Appendix II/EU Annex B or lower. Personally, I think this is a great approach and I would love the possibility of making my own department at least partly self-sustaining like that.

However, from the Ministry administration (under which the Danish M.A. belongs) there is a wish as to "not to send confusing signals to the population". You see, here in Europe our governments do all the thinking for us, and of course the common citizen simply wouldn't be able to grasp the good intentions behind such an auction or the benefits it could potentially bring... :rolleyes: (and I use this smiley very sparingly)

So no, unfortunately no auctions here. Confiscated effects that are in some way unique, educational or may serve as a taxonomical reference are stored for the purpose of lending out to schools, museums or as a later reference for ourselves and then we whack the crap out of the rest.

The educational part I'm really all for and I'm also happy that we in that regard have around 15 large metal trunks filled with different confiscated effects and each accompanied by an educational pack consisting of books and DVD's. These trunks are continuously lent out to public schools in the country and I think this is very valuable from a conservationist point of view. -You've gotta catch 'em while they're young! ;)


All the best, - Thor


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Dear mods, I'm sorry for going so very much off topic here and I realize that I could have written kai a pm instead. However, I thought it might be of interest to others too, to hear how we do in at least one country. If you mods feel like it, you are more than welcome to delete this post. No hard feelings from here at all!

[T. Koch]

Yes Thor, i agree, Roy means it as he says it. Please read his words again.
"I have always thought that the larger of these is bone and the other is shell ( with the opalescence ). The "bone" looks very similar to Loftey's example."
In other words, if the "bone" (the larger one) looks very similar to Lofty's example, and Lofty's example is indeed tridacna, then perhaps the Roy's larger hilt is also tridacna.
I am as sure as i can possibly be without having it in hand that Roy's smaller example is indeed MOP and i completely disagree that this material looks like the higher grade tridacna keris hilt that is in the thread i linked to. That hilt is a cream color (not white like Roy's) and does not exhibit the opalescence seen in Roy's smaller gunong.

Aha David, I see what you mean now. The first time around I had considered the opalescence to be an artifact of the camera's flash, but after seing it on a real screen, as opposed to my laptop, I see what you mean! Do you have a guess at which species could have supplied the shell on Roy's little gunong?

Vandoo, you are indeed right. On the biochemical level formation of molluscan shells is an extremely complex network of processes that all influence the outcome of each other. Like you say, purity of the water plays an enormous difference as well as temperature, currents, availability of oxygen and food, the mollusc's own hormonal fluctuations etc. all resulting in a wide range of possible shell qualities.


Best wishes, - Thor

[Ferguson]

This one decided to come to live with me. It's the smallest I have. The shell hilt is .307" thick (7.8mm). the diameter of the ferrule just behind the guard is .278" (7.04mm). It has a nicely made monosteel blade that is .076" thick (1.93mm).

I'm not sure if it's a childs piece or a miniature. The materials and workmanship are good. Thanks to Lotfy for letting it come home with me. :)

Steve

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Steve,

I am really glad you like it! atleast now I know the normal size of a gunong with that comparison picture hehe

[Battara]

This one decided to come to live with me. It's the smallest I have. The shell hilt is .307" thick (7.8mm). the diameter of the ferrule just behind the guard is .278" (7.04mm). It has a nicely made monosteel blade that is .076" thick (1.93mm).

I'm not sure if it's a childs piece or a miniature. The materials and workmanship are good. Thanks to Lotfy for letting it come home with me. :)

Steve
Glad you have it. It is a child's gunong. I have seen a picture of such a piece on a Moro datu son in the arms of an American.

[Ferguson]

Glad you have it. It is a child's gunong. I have seen a picture of such a piece on a Moro datu son in the arms of an American.
Thanks Jose. That's good to know.

Lotfy, that's not a normal gunong, it's the biggest one I've ever seen. LOL :D Those are the extremes of my collection.

Steve

[A.alnakkas]

LOL well if its a child's gunong would it be safe to assume that it was to an important child? considering the rare hilt material.. other fittings seem normal though.

[David]

LOL well if its a child's gunong would it be safe to assume that it was to an important child? considering the rare hilt material.. other fittings seem normal though.
I would think so...probably a datus child... :shrug: