Dha for comments

[fernando]

Some arms collector from the neighborwood came around yesterday and left this example with me, for ID and comments.
Blade length 58 cms. Handle length 21 cms. Blade flat spine 8 m/m at forte and 2 m/m at tip. Weight 552 grams. The two outer sections and wirings of the handle cover are surely in silver and the central part in some 'braided' cord material that i am not able to identify.
I am not sure whether the handle interior is wood or bamboo, the orifice being either drilled or a natural hollow. Whatever secret contents that might having beeg hidden there, is gone :eek: .
Please Gentlemen, what do i have here ... type, provenance, age ?

Ah, almost forgot to tell, the blade is very sharp, judging by my bleeding finger, whilst picture taking :( .

.

[katana]

Hi 'Nando,
surprised 'Dha boys' have not replied ..... I believe this type is Burmese....nice Dha

All the best
David

[Andrew]

Agreed--Burmese. Looks like early 20th century to me.

As for the handle material, 'Nando, can't really tell from that photo. My inclination is bamboo. :shrug:

More specifically, I believe this sword is Kachin (Jingpaw) and related/derived from that ethnic group's dao:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14334&highlight=kachin

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12573&highlight=kachin

[fernando]

Thank you David,

... surprised 'Dha boys' have not replied ...
Well, i guess Dha boys are like Mohicans ... there aren't many left ;) .

[fernando]

Thank you so much for your qualified input, Andrew. :cool:.
I'll be busy digesting the contents of those links.
I would never guess that the handle material could be bamboo. The thickness of the braided 'strings' is so fine that my guess would go for some kind of (rope) thread :shrug: .

[Andrew]

'Nando, I was referring to the hollow wood core of the handle as bamboo.

The woven textile grip could be any number of materials, including cotton, linen, coconut fiber, etc.

:)

[Andrew]

Oh, and there was an older thread discussing these exact weapons in the context of a "link" between Kachin dao and Burmese dha...can't seem to locate it, but will post when/if I do. :o

[Andrew]

Found it. :)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6724&highlight=kachin

[fernando]

... I was referring to the hollow wood core of the handle as bamboo...
Sorry for my misinterpreting, Andrew :o .
Very hard (for me) to improve pictures. Looking again with a naked eye, there is too much texture in its profila to be wood. Also the hole is not concentric as that done with a drill. I will take for certain your inclination that it is bamboo.

.

[fernando]

Found it. :)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6724&highlight=kachin

Grrreat stuff; thanks a million. :)

[Sajen]

Sorry for my misinterpreting, Andrew :o .
Very hard (for me) to improve pictures. Looking again with a naked eye, there is too much texture in its profila to be wood. Also the hole is not concentric as that done with a drill. I will take for certain your inclination that it is bamboo.

.

Hello Fernando,

yes, agree with Andrew, it seems to be bamboo.

Regards,

Detlef

[Henk]

It is bamboo. Structure of the wood, the hole and the end part of the hilt. 100%.

[fernando]

Alright; bamboo it is :) .

[aiontay]

While I suspect it is Kachin, I'm not sure it would necesarrily be Jinghpaw.

[Nathaniel]

While I suspect it is Kachin, I'm not sure it would necesarrily be Jinghpaw.

Same same yet different :-)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingpo_people

[Nathaniel]

Nice dha by the way Fernado! I like the herring bone weave on the handle and the engraving on the handle is nicely done. Thanks for sharing!

[fernando]

While I suspect it is Kachin, I'm not sure it would necesarrily be Jinghpaw.
Thanks; i will consider that :cool: .

[fernando]

Nice dha by the way Fernado! I like the herring bone weave on the handle and the engraving on the handle is nicely done. Thanks for sharing!

Thanks Nathaniel; for your words and for the Kachin girls link :D .

[fernando]

Say guys:
Any chance this sword is earlier than 20th century ?
... The silver patination is influencing me to think about (even if late) 19th century :o .

[Royston]

Hello Fernando

This is the end of the one I recently posted. As you can see, it is almost identical to yours except that mine has been plugged.

I am not convinced that it is bamboo as the the wall thickness is much greater than I would expect.

Regards
Roy

[Andrew]

Royston, I am even more certain that your's is bamboo--that "cell-like" structure viewing it from the distal end is a dead-giveaway. Some bamboo is quite thick...

[Andrew]

Say guys:
Any chance this sword is earlier than 20th century ?
... The silver patination is influencing me to think about (even if late) 19th century :o .

Possibly. My estimate was just that. :shrug: The distinction of late 19th vs. early 20th c. is largely one without a real difference.

BTW, silver patination can be a difficult thing to base age estimates on--some silver alloys can develop dark, heavy patination very quickly...

:)

[Rick]

There are types of bamboo that do not have a hollow core, so I would agree with Andrew . :)

[Sajen]

I am not convinced that it is bamboo as the the wall thickness is much greater than I would expect.

Regards
Roy


Hello Roy,

have a look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4093

Best regards,

Detlef

[Ferguson]

I have never seen thick walled bamboo like that. But I started Googling thick walled bamboo and found that it is common. Certain varieties like Bambusa burmanica (found in Thailand and Burma) have very thick walls. It's amazing how our interest in ethnographic weapons leads us into other areas!

Steve

[Royston]

OK Gents

I stand corrected on the wall thicknesses of bamboo. I'm too used to seeing the thin-walled types that we get here in the UK.

Detlef, your link appears to be about coconut, not bamboo. ( Nice pictures though )

Regards
Roy

[fernando]

... It's amazing how our interest in ethnographic weapons leads us into other areas!...
Absolutely.
I often tell people that a large (largest?) part of my present (insignificant) knowledge is due to arms collecting side efects.
... The launching base being this forum :cool: .

[Sajen]

Detlef, your link appears to be about coconut, not bamboo. ( Nice pictures though )

Regards
Roy

Oh, yes, my mistake! :rolleyes: Remembered the structure which is very similar. Better I don't post just after wake up! :D :D

[fernando]

...The distinction of late 19th vs. early 20th c. is largely one without a real difference...
In a mere counting way yes, you're right; but in certain other aspects ... means a lot ;) .

... BTW, silver patination can be a difficult thing to base age estimates on--some silver alloys can develop dark, heavy patination very quickly...
Sure thing; duly noted :cool:


.

[lordkoos]

The woven part of the handle would be rattan, ie shredded palm leaf, some varieties produce very strong fibers.

[aiontay]

Nathaniel,

I've spent plenty of time with Kachin people in Thailand (the exile community in Chiang Mai) among the Kachins in the Northern Shan State, and the Kachin here in Oklahoma. Yeah, Oklahoma. There is a Kachin woman (Maru) from Kutkai whose aunt and uncle worked for me on a crop substitution project who now lives about 3 miles from my parents' house in Tulsa, OK. My thesis is on the Kachins. All this to say that Jinghpaw does not necessarily equal Kachin. In fact, the majority of the ten Kachin families in Tulsa are not Jinghpaw. Around Kutkai there were plenty of Maru, Lashi, and Atsi. And then there are those Lisu, who sometimes are and sometimes aren't Kachin.

[Nathaniel]

Nathaniel,

I've spent plenty of time with Kachin people in Thailand (the exile community in Chiang Mai) among the Kachins in the Northern Shan State, and the Kachin here in Oklahoma. Yeah, Oklahoma. There is a Kachin woman (Maru) from Kutkai whose aunt and uncle worked for me on a crop substitution project who now lives about 3 miles from my parents' house in Tulsa, OK. My thesis is on the Kachins. All this to say that Jinghpaw does not necessarily equal Kachin. In fact, the majority of the ten Kachin families in Tulsa are not Jinghpaw. Around Kutkai there were plenty of Maru, Lashi, and Atsi. And then there are those Lisu, who sometimes are and sometimes aren't Kachin.

Thanks Ainotay for the background. Still all confusing to me...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kachin_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingpo_people#Categorization
I read different books that mention the different classification systems and can't keep things straight. I think I need to make a flow chart so I can keep the different tribal groups straight and the different names for the same group...ie Thai name for a certain group and the Burmese name, Chinese, Lao, etc for the same group.

[Battara]

The woven part of the handle would be rattan, ie shredded palm leaf, some varieties produce very strong fibers.
Well.........um..........actually rattan comes from a jungle vine plant that is stripped into long strands.

[aiontay]

Nathaniel,

If it were easy, anthropologist (I'm not one) wouldn't have a job.


Jinghpaw literally just means "human" or "people" so a Jinghpaw might refer to say a Maru as Jinghpaw simply as an expression of kinship to a group that shares a similar culture and a clan system that cuts across tribal boundaries. Kachin is a term the British came up with to generalize all the tribes they met in northern Burma that seemed to share a common culture and were allied with each other. I use allied in a very loose sense since they willing to fight each other and among themselves. Also keep in mind that even within tribes, especially among the Jinghpaw and Rawang, there are very distinct sub-groups like Gauri among the Jinghpaw. Even the Kachins have trouble keeping it straight sometimes.

It is true the Jinghpaw are the most numerous and their dialect is the common one.

[Andrew]

The woven part of the handle would be rattan, ie shredded palm leaf, some varieties produce very strong fibers.

Not likely on this particular weapon. Textile weaving is a well-established art form in the region and among the ethnic groups found there.

[fernando]

Do these help ?


.

[Andrew]

I'm not very good with textiles, 'Nando. :shrug: Looks like it could be rough weave cotton or coconut fiber. :o

[Nathaniel]

Nathaniel,

If it were easy, anthropologist (I'm not one) wouldn't have a job.


Jinghpaw literally just means "human" or "people" so a Jinghpaw might refer to say a Maru as Jinghpaw simply as an expression of kinship to a group that shares a similar culture and a clan system that cuts across tribal boundaries. Kachin is a term the British came up with to generalize all the tribes they met in northern Burma that seemed to share a common culture and were allied with each other. I use allied in a very loose sense since they willing to fight each other and among themselves. Also keep in mind that even within tribes, especially among the Jinghpaw and Rawang, there are very distinct sub-groups like Gauri among the Jinghpaw. Even the Kachins have trouble keeping it straight sometimes.

It is true the Jinghpaw are the most numerous and their dialect is the common one.

All good info. Thanks Aiontay
:)

[fernando]

What do you guys think (know) was the scabbard of this sword ... silver, silver trimmed, plain wood/bamboo or the open face version ?

[PUFF]

Thank you for the photo.
And the hilt is well aged bamboo. ;)