New Gunong

[Robert]

Well, the wife has been at it again. She found this on epray and worked out a deal with its owner and now it has been added to my collection. It arrived today so I thought that I would show a few pictures of it for any comments on age or anything else (like if this is a tourist piece or not) that you would like to add.
The hilt I believe is ivory with what I believe to be swasa fittings while the guard is a combination of an engraved gold plated copper plate and an engraved silver plated copper plate. The scabbard is covered in decorative gold plated copper sheets and bands. Total length of the dagger itself is 12-7/8 inches with a 7-1/4 inch engraved laminated blade. My thanks in advance for any comments or information that anyone would like to offer.

Robert

P.S.
Just to make things a little clearer, the "plating" on the scabbard is more like gilding than actual plating.

[migueldiaz]

Don't know much about gunongs but I found this in Federico Malibago's webpages on Moro swords (http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/moroweapons.html):

"Gunong hilts are what distinguish gunongs most from other Moro weapons. Many associate the bulbous pistol grip style pommel, which is often at extreme near right angles to the hilt proper, as being the traditional gunong hilt. However, truly old gunongs feature a straighter hilt, as can be seen in the related picture of old gunongs. At some point between the turn of the century and the 1930s, gunong hilts gradually changed into the more familiar pistol grip. In this time period as well, gunongs start to appear made with much more extravagant fittings and materials. These newer gunongs often featuring beautifully chased bands on their scabbards, with conspicuous Western style belt clips on the top most band. Also, guards start to appear with more frequency, as well as hilts featuring socketed bulbed ferrules that connect to the bulbous pommel ...

"As to identifying the age of newer gunongs, one must rely on looking at such logical identifying features such as material usage, construction method, etc… The usage of German silver, and aluminum become much more prevalent, like with many Moro swords, after WWII. One piece construction of ferrules and other fittings, versus soldering, also becomes more prevalent after WWII as metal tubing becomes more common in the area in such dubious forms as shell casings. With kris variants one must look at the shape of the luks. Like their larger sword counterparts, more modern tourist gunong blades have much more angular luks. Thinner blades, are also more common on newer pieces. Also newer gunongs tend to be much larger than older pieces, with some pieces verging on sword like proportions. This author personally owns a modern tourist gunong that is over 2 ft in size. Ironically, some of the best Moro chasing/repousse this author has seen have been on newer, often tourist gunongs. Often these newer gunongs also feature either an inlay down the blade consisting of copper, brass, or nickel. It is my personal feeling that many of the newer gunongs are prime examples of Moro craftsmanship, and should be cherished as highly as their plainer older counterparts. However one must take caution to consider these more modern pieces for what they are, modern expressions of traditional art, and if the term applies, sometimes a tourist pieces.
Hence it appears that the subject gunong is a pre-WW2 one.

Then we also see gunongs in Krieger's familiar 1926 publication of Phil. edged weapons, which plate below (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krieger_1926_Philippine_ethnic_weapons_Plate_ 13.png) has this caption:

"Plate 13 -- Hand weapons for cutting, piercing, and stabbing: Knives and daggers. No. 1. Dagger; triangular sectioned, curved, and pointed blade; single cutting edge; carved wood handle. Quinapundar, Samar Island. 2. Dagger "bala-rao"; hastate shape double-edged blade; handle provided with a peculiar finger-fitting grip consisting of extended tang and two horns; silver ferrule at center. Chief defense weapon of the Mandayan, southeastern Mindanao. 3. Woman's knife. Blade curved, designed for striking a slanting blow. Bagobo, southeastern Mindanao. 4. Plain dirk-dagger having curved blade, ferruled wooden handle, and circular guard. Moro, Mindanao. 5. Serpentine Malay dagger; grotesque dugong ivory carving on hilt. Collected by the United States exploring expedition, 1838-1842, under Admiral Wilkes. 6. Malay dagger; curved wooden pistol shape hilt; characteristic serpentine figure carving; straight-edged blade. Wilkes exploring expedition. 7. Serpentine kris-dagger; plain horn handle; engraved circular silver guard and ferrule. Moro, Mindanao. 8. Malay dagger; laminated blade; figured and carved handle of wood. Dyak, Pasir River, southeast Borneo. 9. Punal de kris; blade chased on surface section near handle; wood handle set in socketed brass ferrule. Moro, Mindanao. 10. Dagger; curved, double-edged blade; curved plain wood handle. Moro, Mindanao. 11. Dagger having saberlike blade; metal guard provided with volute tips; carved wood handle; blade chased and inlaid with soft metal at back. Moro, Jolo. 12. Dagger; serpentine blade; metal cross guard; spiral fluted grip of Camagon wood. 13. "Insurrecto" sword-dagger chased blade, pointed and double edged; cross guard; horn handle inlaid with shell mosaic; symbolically figured pommel."
Hope this helps somehow :)

[Battara]

One caveat to Federico's analysis. The blade appears to me to be a little later, say 1950. I may be wrong, but I have seen the majority of these types of blades as post-WWII. The okir is Maranao and that is still being made today in Marawi City on scabbards.

[migueldiaz]

Hi Jose. It looks like you have a point ;)

Because in Krieger's 1926 examples of gunongs above (i.e., nos. 4, 7, 9, & 10), the hilts are not the pistol grip type yet. Thus the pistol grip may have come out more starting after WW2 as you said.

Thanks.

[Robert]

Hello Lorenz and thank you for all the information and the links to Federico Malibago's web site. It seems as dating these can be just a bit tricky. On the shape of the hilt he says "At some point between the turn of the century and the 1930s, gunong hilts gradually changed into the more familiar pistol grip." Then I found this on the same site. http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/_uimages/gunong.html Which he dates to the late 19th century. I know that the blade shape is different from the one I have posted but the hilt is quite similar in style.

Jose, thank you for your information as well as I really appreciate all the help that I can get even if it is not what I would like to hear. :D At the same time on Federico's site I also found this http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/megunong.html (http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/megunong.html) that has the same blade style as mine which he dates to the 1930's because of the fact that "the fittings are all soldered and not of common post WWII materials." The one I have posted it made of copper and what I believe to be swasa. I really need to get this tested to find out for sure. It is not the brass that would be more common after WWII. Also all the seems on the scabbard cover and the hilt fittings are all soldered on mine. There is not one piece of tubing used on it anywhere. One more point of interest is that this piece has a laminated blade and most of the post WWII blades that I have seen are made of monosteel. I will let the experts decide on the dating of this as I have no knowledge of these what so ever.
Thank you both again and also Federico for all your help.

Robert

[migueldiaz]

Thanks Robert for those links (and the pic of Jose's gunongs). Didn't see those webpages before.

[Sajen]

Hello Robert,

equal from which time this gunong, it is very very nice and congrats again that you have such a wife! ;) :)

I have personally my problems to believe that a gunong with ivory pommel is from the time after WW2. :shrug:

Regards,

Detlef

[Battara]

Well if it is a laminated blade, then that changes things a little...........

[David]

I have personally my problems to believe that a gunong with ivory pommel is from the time after WW2. :shrug:
Why is that Detlef. There are many elaborate gunongs that date post WW2. You can still find ivory being used to this day in keris hilts. Why not gunongs?
:shrug:

[Sajen]

Why is that Detlef. There are many elaborate gunongs that date post WW2. You can still find ivory being used to this day in keris hilts. Why not gunongs?
:shrug:

I think that a keris is a complete different culture thing. Post WW2 gunongs are made in my opinion for "tourists" and not for locals (maybe I am wrong by this?? :shrug: ). Elaborate workmanship wasn't expensive to this time but ivory was I think. The gunong in question seems IMHO a representation piece for a local. Or I am so wrong?? :shrug:

[David]

Here's an ivory gunong that i'm pretty sure is also post WW2....
...and while the one on the thread linked below only has layers of ivory as well as MOP, i'm pretty sure it is also post WW2...and you bid on it when it was in auction Detlef... :p :)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13095

[Battara]

Yes I agree David. This one you posted would definitely be post WWII. I base that on the style of mounts on the scabbard, the work on the blade, and especially the type of ferrule.

[Sajen]

Hi David,

yes I bid because I like it! :) Let us maybe not look to the time these gunongs are made, the question is: for whom are they made? Cant believe that this niece pieces are made for "tourists"!? Am I wrong?? :confused:

[David]

Hi David,

yes I bid because I like it! :) Let us maybe not look to the time these gunongs are made, the question is: for whom are they made? Cant believe that this niece pieces are made for "tourists"!? Am I wrong?? :confused:
Well, i don't think we can look at one of these questions and not the other Detlef. You put forth the idea/question that post WW2 gunongs were all made for the tourist trade.
"Post WW2 gunongs are made in my opinion for "tourists" and not for locals..."
Personally, i do not think that is true. So we agree on one front and not another i guess. I think there was definitely some call for some indigenous ownership of these weapons after WW2. Of course there is also a high-end "tourist" market, or rather a "collectors" market that i think some makers in the Philippines may still cater to. I cannot find the link (perhaps someone can assist) that was posted a while back of a current Philippines workshop that seemed to be putting out some very nicely made gunongs along with other Moro weapons. If the market is there and there are customers willing to pay for quality materials, the means and know-how do still exist to create it. :shrug:

[Battara]

You also must understand that there are also datus during WWII and perhaps some of these were made for them.

[David]

Absolutely Jose, and though i don't know the history i would image that datus probably held some esteem even after the war. Anyone have a better grasp on this part of Philippines history? :shrug:

[David]

For comparison here is an ivory hilted blade that i am pretty sure dates pre-WW2 and probably back as far as the turn of the century. Note the pommel is more elongated. Fittings are silver. Though it's hard to photograph with motion, the sheath is a beautiful chatoyant wood with a real nice flashing grain.
Size: Overall in sheath, 9inches. Blade alone, 5 1/4 inches.

[David]

BTW Robert, i can't get my wife to buy me anything blade related. Perhaps we could work out some kind of cultural exchange... ;) :D

[Sajen]

[QUOTE=David]Well, i don't think we can look at one of these questions and not the other Detlef. You put forth the idea/question that post WW2 gunongs were all made for the tourist trade.
"Post WW2 gunongs are made in my opinion for "tourists" and not for locals..."
Personally, i do not think that is true. So we agree on one front and not another i guess. I think there was definitely some call for some indigenous ownership of these weapons after WW2.QUOTE]

It was my assumption that after WW2 were made for tourists. When it isn't like this we have agreement in all parts.
I simple have had problems to believe that Roberts gunong was made for tourists. :)

[Sajen]

You also must understand that there are also datus during WWII and perhaps some of these were made for them.


This is exactly what I think about Roberts gunong! :)

[Sajen]

For comparison here is an ivory hilted blade that i am pretty sure dates pre-WW2 and probably back as far as the turn of the century. Note the pommel is more elongated. Fittings are silver. Though it's hard to photograph with motion, the sheath is a beautiful chatoyant wood with a real nice flashing grain.
Size: Overall in sheath, 9inches. Blade alone, 5 1/4 inches.


Again David,

this one is not fancy but beautiful and I am green with envy! ;)

[Robert]

Hello everyone and thank you all for your help and the great examples that have been posted. I've again tried to get some decent pictures but as you can tell a photographer I am not. However I do believe that these do show the detailing on this a little better. The picture of the guard shows the sandwich technique used in its construction which I believe is the same used on Jose's example. They also show my poor attempt "my first ever" at etching a blade. I cleaned it with ammonia, heated it slightly and then applied lime juice. At least this way I could get a very poor picture showing its construction. It could be seen quite easily before this by looking at it from an angle but I could not get a picture that it would show in at all before applying the lime juice. I would have had more showing the belt loops construction which is the same as the guards but the batteries in my camera died, I think it was trying to tell me something.:D The pictures of the scabbard do not do it justice at all, instead of better showing the giltwork, metalwork and color "which is alot deeper in person" they just seem to highlight the flaws. Anyway I hope that they are of some help. It would be nice to have a solid time frame as to when it was made and who it might have been for, but even if it is of later construction I will always hold it as one of my most prized pieces because it was a gift from my best friend, my wife.


Robert

[David]

Well Robert, there was never any question that this gunong is both expertly made and beautiful. :)

[migueldiaz]

Here's a similar piece (http://goo.gl/6WGdO), from a Paris museum, Musée du quai Branly (pics att.)...

[mrwizard]

Just for the records: a gunong with fittings of similar style but of rather poor workmanship. I believe it has been made for the travellers market. The seller told me it was brought to europe by an american soldier shortly after WW2. :shrug:

[Battara]

Good comparison Mr. Wizard - notice the hilt and the waves of the blade, definite indications of very post WWII. Also the guard is blocky and is not cut to the contours of the okir.

[David]

this one is not fancy but beautiful and I am green with envy! ;)
Frankly, i am less inclined to assess age to gunongs the fancier they get. By fancy i mean all the filigree and extra okir work, not the materials. It seems to me that all the truly older examples tend to be simpler. When, for instance, did this bulbous filigree hilt feature first appear? It does not seem to be a feature of truly older gunongs, or am i wrong?

[David]

Just for the records: a gunong with fittings of similar style but of rather poor workmanship. I believe it has been made for the travellers market. The seller told me it was brought to europe by an american soldier shortly after WW2. :shrug:
I agree with Jose that this is probably a very post WW2 example and that the seller exaggerated with his "shortly after WW2" comment (to think that they might ever do such a thing! :rolleyes: :D ).

[David]

While we're at it, when did the gunong itself first appear? I have asked this question before with no solid result, but i guess it doesn't hurt to keep asking. :-) Has anyone seen any gunongs that can be safely dated before the late 19th century? :shrug:

[David]

Yes I agree David. This one you posted would definitely be post WWII. I base that on the style of mounts on the scabbard, the work on the blade, and especially the type of ferrule.
I think we both agree on the relative age on this blade, but if you look at the Krieger Plate at #9 you can see similar blade work at least dates to 1926 when this plate was made.

[Atlantia]

Well, the wife has been at it again. She found this on epray and worked out a deal with its owner and now it has been added to my collection. It arrived today so I thought that I would show a few pictures of it for any comments on age or anything else (like if this is a tourist piece or not) that you would like to add.
The hilt I believe is ivory with what I believe to be swasa fittings while the guard is a combination of an engraved gold plated copper plate and an engraved silver plated copper plate. The scabbard is covered in decorative gold plated copper sheets and bands. Total length of the dagger itself is 12-7/8 inches with a 7-1/4 inch engraved laminated blade. My thanks in advance for any comments or information that anyone would like to offer.

Robert

P.S.
Just to make things a little clearer, the "plating" on the scabbard is more like gilding than actual plating.


Bloody hell Robert!
Totally missed this one, what a beauty! I'm drooling on the keyboard!!

You'll have to keep the mrs a little longer now ;)

If memory serves this isn't the first beautiful present she's found you?

[Robert]

Hello Gene, and thank you for your compliments on both the gunong and the wifes taste. Yes, she is definitely a keeper and has shown me she has a great eye for spotting nice items. Last year she found and bought a small collection of very nice Moro items for my birthday. The thing is, she has always referred to my collection as a pile of rusty junk and now she is actively looking for and buying items like this.:confused: It is actually starting to make me a bit nervous :eek: but like they say, never look a gift horse in the mouth. Seeing as she seems to be on the lookout for Moro items maybe I should drop a few hints about that pira that I've always wanted.:D

[David]

Just wondering if my questions are unanswerable, since no one has addressed them. Just to state them again...
How accurately can we date this filigree ball feature that we see on some of these fancier dressed gunongs?
How far back can we date the weapon itself? Can't say i've seen anything that can be dated older than very late 19th century.

[kronckew]

i seem to recall reading somewhere that the moro started carrying the gunongs somewhere during the insurrection at the end of the 19c/early 20th when they were forbidden to carry the longer kris and barongs in public. the smaller knives could more easily be hidden yet were still deadly at close quarters.

my humble item, hardened edge is very apparent in vinegar etch.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Filipino/P8010024_5_6Enhancer.jpg

my touristy one: note the pointy luks, thin sheet metal guard, thinner flat x-section blade vs. diamond x-section in the other, no hardened edge or laminations, grip ball rather than the more form-fitting version of the earlier one that fits nicely between the fingers. decorations are incised in the ball, not wirework.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Filipino/gunong21.jpg

the top one lives on the night stand by my bed justincase. the touristy one is relegated to the closet. ;)

[VANDOO]

EVIDENTLY THESE KNIVES DO NOT EXHIST :eek: I WENT THRU STONES GLOSSARY AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IT FAILED ME. I COULD NOT FIND IT MENTIONED AS GUNONG OR BADIK NOT EVEN A PICTURE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK UNLESS I MISSED IT. I HAD HOPED TO FIND IT IN STONES AS THAT WOULD HAVE AT LEAST ESTABLISHED IT PRE 1934 WHEN STONES WAS COPYWRITED. I DIDN'T SEE IT IN CATOS BOOK BUT AS IT DEALS SPECIFICALLY WITH MORO SWORDS ITS NOT A SURPRIZE.
I THINK I USED TO CALL WHAT IS TODAY CALLED A GUNONG A BADIK BUT AM NOT SURE. PERHAPS SOMEONE HAS OLDER BOOKS ON PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS WHERE THESE DAGGERS ARE PICTURED SO A TIMELINE CAN BE ESTABLISHED.
AFTER WW2 THINGS WENT INTO HIGH GEAR IN THE PHILIPPINES WITH REBUILDING IT WAS A TIME OF GROWTH AND OPPORTUNITYS FOR GAINING WEALTH WERE ON THE RISE. THERE WAS PLENTY OF METAL EASILY AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO WORKED IT. SOLDIERS ALL HAD FIGHTING KNIVES SO IT IS LIKELY THE LOCALS WOULD BE LOOKING TO BUY A KNIFE TOO AND MANY MORE WOULD HAVE HAD THE MONEY TO AFFORD ONE. THE SOLDIERS WERE A READY MARKET TOO BUT WERE NOT THE ONLY MARKET. THE TOURISTS CAME A BIT LATER AFTER WW2 AS EVERYONE WAS EITHER REBUILDING OR CATCHING THEIR BREATH AFTER SUCH A TERRIBLE WAR.

I AM PRETTY SURE THE GUNONG WAS AROUND BEFORE WW2 BUT MOST WERE NOT FANCY OR LARGE AND WERE CARRIED CONCELED FOR PROTECTION NOT FOR DISPLAY OR WORK KNIVES. JUST CONJECTURE AS I NO LONGER REMEMBER WHERE I GOT THAT INFORMATION OR IDEA. :shrug:

[David]

Kronckew, i like your first example. Looks well constructed. Are the fittings silver? So hard to tell in photos. Certainly a solid piece with some age on it. Again, i'm wondering when certain changes took place such as the more bulbous and pistol shaped hilt. :)

[David]

EVIDENTLY THESE KNIVES DO NOT EXHIST :eek: I WENT THRU STONES GLOSSARY AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IT FAILED ME. I COULD NOT FIND IT MENTIONED AS GUNONG OR BADIK NOT EVEN A PICTURE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK UNLESS I MISSED IT. I HAD HOPED TO FIND IT IN STONES AS THAT WOULD HAVE AT LEAST ESTABLISHED IT PRE 1934 WHEN STONES WAS COPYWRITED. I DIDN'T SEE IT IN CATOS BOOK BUT AS IT DEALS SPECIFICALLY WITH MORO SWORDS ITS NOT A SURPRIZE.
I THINK I USED TO CALL WHAT IS TODAY CALLED A GUNONG A BADIK BUT AM NOT SURE. PERHAPS SOMEONE HAS OLDER BOOKS ON PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS WHERE THESE DAGGERS ARE PICTURED SO A TIMELINE CAN BE ESTABLISHED.
AFTER WW2 THINGS WENT INTO HIGH GEAR IN THE PHILIPPINES WITH REBUILDING IT WAS A TIME OF GROWTH AND OPPORTUNITYS FOR GAINING WEALTH WERE ON THE RISE. THERE WAS PLENTY OF METAL EASILY AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO WORKED IT. SOLDIERS ALL HAD FIGHTING KNIVES SO IT IS LIKELY THE LOCALS WOULD BE LOOKING TO BUY A KNIFE TOO AND MANY MORE WOULD HAVE HAD THE MONEY TO AFFORD ONE. THE SOLDIERS WERE A READY MARKET TOO BUT WERE NOT THE ONLY MARKET. THE TOURISTS CAME A BIT LATER AFTER WW2 AS EVERYONE WAS EITHER REBUILDING OR CATCHING THEIR BREATH AFTER SUCH A TERRIBLE WAR.

I AM PRETTY SURE THE GUNONG WAS AROUND BEFORE WW2 BUT MOST WERE NOT FANCY OR LARGE AND WERE CARRIED CONCELED FOR PROTECTION NOT FOR DISPLAY OR WORK KNIVES. JUST CONJECTURE AS I NO LONGER REMEMBER WHERE I GOT THAT INFORMATION OR IDEA. :shrug:
Barry, i'm not at home with my books, but did you check under the name "punal" or "kris punal"?

[Atlantia]

Hello Gene, and thank you for your compliments on both the gunong and the wifes taste. Yes, she is definitely a keeper and has shown me she has a great eye for spotting nice items. Last year she found and bought a small collection of very nice Moro items for my birthday. The thing is, she has always referred to my collection as a pile of rusty junk and now she is actively looking for and buying items like this.:confused: It is actually starting to make me a bit nervous :eek: but like they say, never look a gift horse in the mouth. Seeing as she seems to be on the lookout for Moro items maybe I should drop a few hints about that pira that I've always wanted.:D


When she's buying presents like that the only worry is that you might do something to make her stop!

[Battara]

Here is some good information from Federico's site: look at the gunong section.

http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/moroweapons.html

To answer your question, David, the bulbous ferrule seems to be a little later, around the 1930s? Hard to pin down exact dates.

[VANDOO]

YOU ARE RIGHT I USED TO CALL THEM PUNAL. I DIDN'T FIND ANYTHING UNDER PUNAL OR KRIS PICTURES OR TEXT. STONE DID GROUP THE KERIS AND MORO KRIS ALL UNDER KRIS IN HIS BOOK BUT NO GUNONGS PICTURED. I AM SURPRIZED.

[migueldiaz]

another anecdotal evidence, on how the gunongs looked like in the 1920s and earlier (taken from antiques magazine, march 1926) ...

[Battara]

Thanks Lorenz. I also have a copy of this magazine and the picture supports Federico's analysis.

The bulbous midsection of the hilt and the bulbous pistol grip is a later, 1930s development.

Now the question is were they earlier than 1900? I am sure that some form was present but early gunongs were placed out of site as an emergency piece or often worn in the back as a back up weapon. Much later did they get large, showy, and worn more prominantly.

[migueldiaz]

thanks too, jose. i'm intrigued too on how the bulbous feature came about ...

[Robert]

I could be wrong but on the picture above from antiques magazine, march 1926 that Lorenz posted the second dagger from the left looks to already have the bulbous midsection of the hilt. This is the best that I could do to show it. Maybe someone that has a better copy of the original picture could take a closer look to help decide whether or not this is correct.


Robert

[kronckew]

Kronckew, i like your first example. Looks well constructed. Are the fittings silver? ... :)

hard to tell, definitely not aluminum, tarnish is black as i'd expect from silver. might be low grade Ag. doesn't look like the nickel 'silver' on some of my other knives.

the lower one's fittings appear to be tinned brass.

[Battara]

When I talk of bulbous I am referring to the large bulbous midsection like the large pistol grip of the later pieces. My silver one below is a smaller one and I believe it comes from the late 1910s to early 1920s.

[Battara]

By large and bulbous I am referring to this which I believe to be from the 1930s (also notice the bulbous pistol grip and the okir on the scabbard).

[migueldiaz]

here's another example (from steve) of a gunong where the 'bulb' is just starting to 'grow' ...

[Ferguson]

Robert,
Sorry to take so long to reply. Although I love the gunong, and have quite a few, I'm no scholar. I've loved reading the posts here, and have learned a lot. I have a feeling, based on my gut, and not knowledge, that your piece is post-WWII. But it's a lovely, finely crafted piece, made with traditional bladesmithing methods. Quite a fine blade! Congratulations!

Steve