Gunong with missing pommel

[Sajen]

Hello friends,

have won recently this gunong with missing pommel. When I received it there was a surprise, all fittings seems to be from silver. And the construction of the handle is very unusual in my opinion. On the tang is a piece of horn attached with a hole in up. I suppose that the missing pommel was attached with a pin through the pommel and this horn piece. do you agree? I plan to restore the gunong so all comments are very appreciated. The gunong is very heavy and has a laminated blade of a somewhat unusual form. I think to remember that Jose once write that gunong with silver fittings are from Sulu. Remember I correct?

Thanks in advance,

Detlef

[Sajen]

some more pictures!

[Indianajones]

Hi Sajen, nice piece indeed and perfect for a restaurationproject. To me the horn piece looks more newer made than the (good old) rest. Especially the end sticking out.
Though it sure is made in the Phil. and probably an attempt to restore the handle and keep all parts together.

Gonna make a wood endedhandle or a 'ivory'-one?? One sees quite some hippotooth and occasionally a whaletooth on antiquemarkets.

Good luck friend!

[Sajen]

Hi Sajen, nice piece indeed and perfect for a restaurationproject. To me the horn piece looks more newer made than the (good old) rest. Especially the end sticking out.
Though it sure is made in the Phil. and probably an attempt to restore the handle and keep all parts together.

Gonna make a wood endedhandle or a 'ivory'-one?? One sees quite some hippotooth and occasionally a whaletooth on antiquemarkets.

Good luck friend!

Hi Wouter,

good possible that this horn piece is part of an old repair, who knows? You are correct, I want to built up a new pommel from ivory, have bought some time ago an antique billard ball from ivory so I have the material. First I have to repair the silver shoe in down of the scabbard and the silver piece from the handle.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

Nice restoration project for sure. These silver rings look a bit questionable to me as gunong parts though. Not sure they originally come from this blade. :shrug:

[Sajen]

Nice restoration project for sure. These silver rings look a bit questionable to me as gunong parts though. Not sure they originally come from this blade. :shrug:


Hi David,

all by this dagger is a little bit strange! :D The ring is oval in diameter and not circular but I think that it is original to it.

Regards,

Detlef

[Indianajones]

Quote; 'These silver rings look a bit questionable to me as gunong parts though. Not sure they originally come from this blade'

Indeed they seem more Indian-like, with those stuck on wire in a strange deco. -I could be wrong here- but much comparisson will learn. Apart from the top engraved ring, which does look more like the filipino way.
But its all quite suitable anyway, I would say; make it a nice knife again.

A billiardball!?? How are you gonna try to saw it in pieces to fit it as endpiece? Why not look for a small upper (straight) hippotooth which are not too dificult to find (antique/fleamarkets/ebay?) which are already straight, hollow and just need the end to be rounded (and sides sanded). :)

[Sajen]

A billiardball!?? How are you gonna try to saw it in pieces to fit it as endpiece? Why not look for a small upper (straight) hippotooth which are not too dificult to find (antique/fleamarkets/ebay?) which are already straight, hollow and just need the end to be rounded (and sides sanded). :)

I need ivory for other restaurations also, so I have to saw this billard ball anyway. :D

[Gustav]

Quote; 'These silver rings look a bit questionable to me as gunong parts though. Not sure they originally come from this blade'

Indeed they seem more Indian-like, with those stuck on wire in a strange deco. -I could be wrong here- but much comparisson will learn. Apart from the top engraved ring, which does look more like the filipino way.


It seems, such wire work we could encounter also in Philippines.

[Sajen]

It seems, such wire work we could encounter also in Philippines.

Thank you Gustav for this significant picture! Indeed very similar style. :)

Regards,

Detlef

[Spunjer]

It seems, such wire work we could encounter also in Philippines.

here's another one from Mindanao :)

[Robert]

Here's another.

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

Please try to polish and etch the blade first. Unless this proves to be a really nice blade, I don't think I'd waste any ivory on it: the fittings appear to be thin and of poor quality, even for post-WW2 standards...

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Hello Detlef,

Please try to polish and etch the blade first. Unless this proves to be a really nice blade, I don't think I'd waste any ivory on it: the fittings appear to be thin and of poor quality, even for post-WW2 standards...

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

surely will be the next step to polish and etch the blade but I am nearly sure to see a fine lamination. Will add pictures when it is done. The silver fittings are tested and they are not thin but thick and heavy. The end cap of the scabbard and the big part of the handle now by a jeweler to let do some repairs. They are not in the best condition but think they will look better after cleaning.

Regards,

Detlef

[Battara]

I think to remember that Jose once write that gunong with silver fittings are from Sulu. Remember I correct?

Detlef
Sorry I am getting in so late. I don't remember saying this. I do remember giving a date for the silver one I have. If I am wrong, please show me.

Also I scratch my head at the silver bands like Indiana Jones. The filigree is the right form for Moro, but the style throws me off. :confused:

I will admit, though, the bottom band looks to be Jawi filigree script - maybe this is why it looks so weird. Also the top band is Moro.

Finally most gunongs seem to be from Mindanao, according to Federico and according to the style of okir I have observed.

[Rick]

I weep for the fate of the antique ivory Billiard Ball . :( :(

Can't you find another source for your ivory, Detlef ?

Here, I have found Hippo tusks for sale on gunbroker.com . :)
Much easier to work with !

[Robert]

Hello Detlef, Well it looks as though you have your work cut out for you on this one. Please keep us posted on the progress. It should be a very nice gunong once you are finished with it.

Rick, I hate to say it but one time years ago I saw a group of shooters using ivory billiard balls as targets like clay pidgins. Talk about a waste !!! :eek: :(

Robert

[Rick]

Rick, I hate to say it but one time years ago I saw a group of shooters using ivory billiard balls as targets like clay pidgins. Talk about a waste !!! :eek: :(

Robert

Oh the HORROR .... :(
Seriously, that Hippo Ivory is prime ... and it has a natural curve . :cool:

[Sajen]

Sorry I am getting in so late. I don't remember saying this. I do remember giving a date for the silver one I have. If I am wrong, please show me.


Hello Jose,

look here:http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14763&highlight=gunong, post #5

"Glad the fittings are silver. If true it may be Sulu. If plated, then it would probably be from Mindanao. If aluminum they would obviously be WWII."

[Sajen]

I weep for the fate of the antique ivory Billiard Ball . :( :(

Can't you find another source for your ivory, Detlef ?

Here, I have found Hippo tusks for sale on gunbroker.com . :)
Much easier to work with !

Hello Rick,

have look long for old ivory for some restauration and have seen that ervery time again billiard balls listed in ebay and have win this one by not $70!
I am a little bit afraid to order a hippo tusk by gunbroker.com. :shrug:
Isn't it on the cites list?

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Hello Detlef, Well it looks as though you have your work cut out for you on this one. Please keep us posted on the progress. It should be a very nice gunong once you are finished with it.
Robert


Thank you Robert! Of course I will post further pictures of the progress and I hope you are right! ;) :D

Regards,

Detlef

[Rick]

Hello Rick,

have look long for old ivory for some restauration and have seen that ervery time again billiard balls listed in ebay and have win this one by not $.70!
I am a little bit afraid to order a hippo tusk by gunbroker.com. :shrug:
Isn't it on the cites list?

Regards,

Detlef

Not to my knowlege, Detlef; the seller states that these are legal teeth .

I can inquire from the Seller or pass on their site address to you if you cannot connect with gunbroker.com .

The Seller had lots of teeth, lots . :)

Now, you got that ivory cue ball for seventy cents !?!? :eek: :cool:

[Sajen]

Not to my knowlege, Detlef; the seller states that these are legal teeth .


When it is like this I will maybe order one. :)

[Sajen]

Now, you got that ivory cue ball for seventy cents !?!? :eek: :cool:

No, for not $.70, for $ 70, don't know who type this dot!! :D :D :D

[Sajen]

The silver is cleaned and the end cap as well the ferrule from silver is repaired and I have etched the blade. the pictures are a little bit blurry, will take better ones tomorrow by day light. The blade become very dark by etching with vinegar but show a clear lamination. What do you think, is it worth to receive an ivory pommel?

[David]

Personally i think you would be wasting the ivory on this piece....and while some of those bands might well be Moro they still look to me like a mismatched grouping that were not originally together on a single hilt. :shrug:

[Battara]

Thanks Sajen for reminding me. Maybe is the operative word. The filigree work could be Sulu or Mindanao. Seen both. If solid silver could be Sulu, though recently I think I have seen Mindanao pieces like that as well. Certainly if plated it is definitely Mindanao.

I do wonder if the scabbard is an even later replacement for this piece. Dimensions seem a little bit larger than needed for the guard.

Tough to evaluate.

[T. Koch]

Gonna make a wood endedhandle or a 'ivory'-one?? One sees quite some hippotooth and occasionally a whaletooth on antiquemarkets.


Wow, are there really documented cases of hippo ivory being used as gunong handles? There are no native hippopotamus anywhere in Asia, so the closest source would be East Africa. Wouldn't that make it the 'Unobtanium' of the times back then? Or was exclusivity exactly the point?

Cool knife - looking forward to the repair!


All the best, - Thor

[David]

Thor, i don't think anyone was suggesting that hippo ivory was traditionally used on gunong, just that there is some availability of that form of ivory on the market today. :shrug:

[Indianajones]

Yep, indeed That is what I meant. Not so very (intrinsically) cultural correct as the Moros may never have seen/known hippos in their lives! The shape n form are (from the lower straight teeth) already 'handleshaped' and the endresult after grinding n sanding may just look the same as . . .

makes me think; was it seacow- or 'dugong'-teeth they used or perhaps whaletooth for the ivoryhandle. Am not sure if seacows do/did live in the Phill's and if whaletooth ever stranded there (never heard/seen myself).
Certainly have read about this question in one or two topics before but cant remember this answer was finally cleared up..?!?

[kai]

makes me think; was it seacow- or 'dugong'-teeth they used or perhaps whaletooth for the ivoryhandle. Am not sure if seacows do/did live in the Phill's and if whaletooth ever stranded there (never heard/seen myself).
No need to wait for a stranding: Both, dugong and sperm whale were hunted all over the archipelago.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Wow, are there really documented cases of hippo ivory being used as gunong handles? There are no native hippopotamus anywhere in Asia, so the closest source would be East Africa. Wouldn't that make it the 'Unobtanium' of the times back then? Or was exclusivity exactly the point?
Hippo ivory is very commonly seen with Sumatran/Malay keris hilts as well as other objects. There was very intense and ancient sea trade between East Africa (trading port for much of sub-saharan Africa) and SE Asia; from the examples I've seen, I don't think it was regarded more highly than elephant ivory.

I'm not certain having seen any Moro blade with hippo fittings but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

At first here some better pictures by daylight.

[Sajen]

Personally i think you would be wasting the ivory on this piece....and while some of those bands might well be Moro they still look to me like a mismatched grouping that were not originally together on a single hilt. :shrug:


Hi David,

I am as well still uncertain which material I shall use for the pommel. But I am sure that the fittings are made for this blade but if they are old as the blade is a other question. And it is maybe more difficult to find banati wood than ivory of which sort ever. :shrug:

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Thanks Sajen for reminding me. Maybe is the operative word. The filigree work could be Sulu or Mindanao. Seen both. If solid silver could be Sulu, though recently I think I have seen Mindanao pieces like that as well. Certainly if plated it is definitely Mindanao.

I do wonder if the scabbard is an even later replacement for this piece. Dimensions seem a little bit larger than needed for the guard.

Tough to evaluate.

Hello Jose,

it is certainly solid silver. You could be correct that the scabbard is a later replacement, the fit look strange to me as well. But the length is correct for the blade and the blade fit well inside the scabbard. Otherwise it look strange from up, see picture.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Cool knife - looking forward to the repair!

All the best, - Thor

Thank you Thor, will keep you informed at this place.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

But I am sure that the fittings are made for this blade but if they are old as the blade is a other question.
Can you explain to me why you are so sure of this. What i see are 4 bands of rather different styles and techniques that seem to be made of 4 completely different qualities of silver. Each has a completely different pattern and they don't see to compliment each other. Not something i can remember seeing on any complete pieces i have seen. What am i missing here? :shrug:

[Sajen]

Can you explain to me why you are so sure of this. What i see are 4 bands of rather different styles and techniques that seem to be made of 4 completely different qualities of silver. Each has a completely different pattern and they don't see to compliment each other. Not something i can remember seeing on any complete pieces i have seen. What am i missing here? :shrug:


Hi David,

no different quality of the silver, some are cleaned chemically by the jeweller while others are polished by hand so the different look. The silver is tested BTW. The strange look of the comlete dagger I mentioned already by my first post to this dagger. I am sure that the fittings are made for the blade because all have a oval cross section, nothing I have seen before by a gunong. All other I have and have seen are round in cross section. So I am sure that all parts of the bands are special made for this piece. If all made at the same time or a addition at a later time because something was broken I can't say of course.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

OK Detlef, but i have never seen such a mismatching of pattern, design and technique used on silver work for a gunong hilt before. I think we will just have to agree to disagree... :)

[Sajen]

OK Detlef, but i have never seen such a mismatching of pattern, design and technique used on silver work for a gunong hilt before. I think we will just have to agree to disagree... :)

Hi David,

maybe we have to agree at this point! :D ;)
But have again a look to this picture from the seller, IMHO it isn't so missmatching but very worn and like I think very unusal.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Have received two pictures from my friend who have carved the new handle for the gunong. Just want to share with you. What do you think?

[Battara]

Nice hilt work.

[Sajen]

Thank you Jose, I am also pleased by the result. :)

Regards,

Detlef