A gamble, your opinion?

[Sajen]

Hello,

have bought this keris: http://www.ebay.com/itm/251108487966?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
There have been only a few expressionless pictures posted but what I am able to see is that all, the blade and dress as well, are good worked.
What do you think?

[VANDOO]

I LIKE IT AND THE PRICE WAS CERTIANLY RIGHT. THE WORKMANSHIP ON THE BLADE AND FITTINGS LOOKS LIKE GOOD WORK AND THE WOOD LOOKS TO HAVE A NICE GRAIN. HARD TO TELL IF ITS AN OLD BLADE REWORKED, OR NEWER BLADE AND WORK DONE TOGETHER WHEN THE KERIS WAS MADE. EITHER WAY A VERY ATTRACTIVE KERIS.

[Atlantia]

Hi Detlef,

What a great looking Keris. All the elements look really nicely made, congratulations.
I look forward to seeing more pictures when you have it with you.
Best
Gene

[David]

I look forward to better photos when you receive this. I could be wrong, but i am not sure this looks like pre-WW2 kinatah work to me. I hope you bought the kerns and not the story... :)

[Sajen]

Thank you Barry, Gene and David for comment. I don't think that the keris is very old but like you see it is good worked and I am byself very curious to see it in real and hold it in my hands. It will be special very interesting if the kinatah is from gold. And of course I don't bought the story! :D

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

The photos give me the impression that the kinatah is brass, but this can be very deceptive. I hope that you find otherwise once you have the keris in hand.
If the story were correct and this was brought back from WW2 you would have done quite well on this one, as this would then have to be a pre-WW2 blade. That might be just a bit too good a deal to hold out hope for, i'm afraid... :shrug: :)

[Jean]

I would agree with David regarding the materials of the kinatah, I apparently see some traces of "vert de gris" (green copper compound) on the reverse side of the blade, which should indicate that the kinatah is from brass (may be gilt).
Regarding the estimated age of the piece, the seller just says that it was brought to the US after WW2 but this is not a very accurate statement :D From the pictures and if it was my decision I would categorize the kris as probably from tangguh kamardikan muda Madura but of course I can prove wrong and the piece is quite well made.
The seller also proposes another kris with a kinatah blade of similar quality.
Regards

[David]

Regarding the estimated age of the piece, the seller just says that it was brought to the US after WW2 but this is not a very accurate statement :D
Yeah Jean, i think this was left intentionally ambiguous. Of course, the intention is also to get you to think it might be a WW2 bring back, but i don't see that as particularly likely.

[Sajen]

I would agree with David regarding the materials of the kinatah, I apparently see some traces of "vert de gris" (green copper compound) on the reverse side of the blade, which should indicate that the kinatah is from brass (may be gilt).


Hello Jean,

this is what I see as well and I think when the brass is gilded it is a good catch by this price. I don't think that it is kinatah mas, otherwise it would be too much luck! :D :)

Regards,

Detlef

[DAHenkel]

in the eighties keris of this type were fairly common in Jalan Surabaya. I would make this about 30 years old giver or take a few year...

[Sajen]

in the eighties keris of this type were fairly common in Jalan Surabaya. I would make this about 30 years old giver or take a few year...

Hello Dave,

for whom they were made? And was the quality good?

Regards,

Detlef

[Rick]

Since you are asking for opinions, Detlef; I would say that I might like this keris more without the brass 'kinatah' overlayed .

Just a sculpture in the pamor itself I would find more interesting .. no need for gloss, IMO . :shrug: :o

[David]

for whom they were made?
I think that for the answer to this we might want to consider just what the significance of the addition of gold kinatah might mean in the culture. Who was a blade with gold kinatah meant for? Then ask, who then would a keris with brass kinatah be made for... :shrug:

[A. G. Maisey]

I started to see keris with brass kinatah, and brass kinatah gold plated, in the late 1980's, and they continue to be available until today.

As with virtually all keris of the modern era they are made for local consumption, and they are bought by Indonesians as dress keris. Obviously the people who buy them want a bit of bling and cannot afford gold.

I have seen much older keris with kinatah from brass and from alloys other than gold, but these are not common.

The right to kinatah work on a keris was sometimes granted by a ruler, much as medals are given in our own society, however in the far distant past it was also a prerogative of rank. In more recent times --- and I don't know from precisely when --- kinatah was used by anybody who wanted it and could afford it.

As a general rule, we seldom find kinatah work combined with complex pamor.

[Gavin Nugent]

I have seen much older keris with kinatah from brass and from alloys other than gold, but these are not common.

Pages 181 and 182 show such a Keris if anyone has a copy of "Ferro, oro, pietre prezoise...Le Armi Orientali Dell'Armeris Reale Di Torino.

Gav

[Sajen]

Since you are asking for opinions, Detlef; I would say that I might like this keris more without the brass 'kinatah' overlayed .

Just a sculpture in the pamor itself I would find more interesting .. no need for gloss, IMO . :shrug: :o

Hi Rick,

I have tried the gamble because it seems that the quality is good and I personally like keris with kinatah. Let us see what I have bought when I have received it and I can post better pictures. When I was wrong is the amount I have given wasn't extrem! :D

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

I started to see keris with brass kinatah, and brass kinatah gold plated, in the late 1980's, and they continue to be available until today.

As with virtually all keris of the modern era they are made for local consumption, and they are bought by Indonesians as dress keris. Obviously the people who buy them want a bit of bling and cannot afford gold.


Thank you Alan, this is what I want to know. :)

Regards,

Detlef

[DAHenkel]

Agree with Alan more or less. I was in Jakarta '85 - 86 and remember seing quite a few of these. Quite variable in quality from fairly good - like yours, all the way to hideous. The big difference these days is that the top end of the market has improved markedly. Your pieces was about as good as it got in those days. Today, there are newly made pieces that rival the artistry of the great old pieces. Wasn't a lot of that around in the mid-Eighties...at least, not on Jalan Surabaya ;o)

[rasjid]

Hi Detlef,

As mentioned previously, this is newly made and still available in the market. It is a good keris and fittings for the price paid (i dont know how much they charge for postage), you are doing allright :) Some people pay even more in Jakarta. Especially people who never connected on the Internet.

Real Kinatah gold - newly made sometimes sold for over US$10,000 because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris.
This is brass under neath as Jane mentioned (Green Stuff). Some newer model comes with additional gold n Silver also.

Regards
Rasjid

[Sajen]

Dave and Rasjid,

thank you both for the additional informations. :)

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

Real Kinatah gold - newly made sometimes sold for over US$10,000 because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris.
Regards
Rasjid

Attached is the picture of a probably recent blade with 22Kt? gold kinatah on a brass base. I realized it recently because the kinatah is peeling off at one corner due to the lack of care from myself so I could see the underlying brass base, but the gold coating is quite thick actually. Your comments will be welcome.
Regards

[Sajen]

Hello Jean,

nice keris of good quality! :) Do you know if the kinatah work is a traditinonal motif? Also when the pendok is of good quality I would change it against a closed one since the sheath isn't iras.

Best regards,

Detlef

[rasjid]

Hi Jean,

From your explanation, i agree this is recently Made.

If you are reffering that if this is the standard for the one on offer for over $10,000. Short answer is No.

For this price, the keris is well made and carved with full gold underneath, correctly executed (not welded like Madura work) but for experienced Collectors, still can be identified. The gold could be over 100gr, remember you need more gold than you have to, if you asked someone else to do it.

I'm not reffering that i'm An expert on this, but try to understand and learn something here. :p

Rasjid







http://

[David]

Perhaps Rasjid, it would be helpful if you posted an example of just the kind of keris you are talking about. I also understood your previous comment to imply that these keris of which you speak were not really worth that kind of money, but sold at an inflated rate "because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris".
From that i get that these keris were fraudulently sold as "old keris". Was this what you meant to say?

[Jean]

Hello Jean,

nice keris of good quality! :) Do you know if the kinatah work is a traditinonal motif? Also when the pendok is of good quality I would change it against a closed one since the sheath isn't iras.

Best regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef and Rasjid,
I never saw such a kinatah motif before so I suppose that it was created from the imagination of the maker but I find it very decorative. The quality of the kinatah is not excellent but still quite good IMO and the amount of gold is significant.
I agree that I should replace the pendok blewah by a closed one but it needs to be golden colour for matching with the kinatah blade and I did not find a suitable one yet (only bling-bling pieces).
Rasjid, we should not discuss about price or value in this forum, let me just say that I paid the price of a brand new Mercedes Benz for this piece but a miniature one! :D
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Traditional kinatah on a Javanese or a Balinese blade has specified meaning and more or less set design.

It is not just a matter of artistic ornamentation.

It must be gold, because of the societal and esoteric qualities of gold.

It cannot be silver, it cannot be brass, it cannot be gold plated brass.

It must be gold.

It is never cheap, nor even reasonably priced.


Kinatah-like ornamentation is not bound by the rules which apply to traditional kinatah. Some of this work can be quite old, quite beautiful and it can also be gold, but its prime purpose is to ornament the blade. Because it is not subject to the same rules as traditional kinatah it can come in brass, gold plated brass, silver, or whatever else might give an artistic effect.

In essence this type of blade ornamentation can be considered to be primarily artistic.

[rasjid]

I can't put someone else keris in this forum and discredit them :D
Yes David, the Keris is sold as old keris but I wont argue about the keris and its depending the buyer if they are prepared to spend and risk their money on it.

How many more out there good keris with old Kinatah work ? I'm talking long before 1900's

This is my own keris with Kinatah work, so any comment is welcome. I hope this one dont have "free" brass underneath.
Sorry for the low photo quality.

rasjid

[Jussi M.]

Traditional kinatah on a Javanese or a Balinese blade has specified meaning and more or less set design.

This is an interesting topic. If I may ask, is there remaining knowledge as to what degree does this "set design" has to fall onto? In other words, what forms the parameters of the "set design" - is there a documented pakem of sorts that must be followed or is it more of a custom transformed onto an unspoken rule, something in between or something else?

Thanks,

J.

[GIO]

It is only my personal opinion, but I think the range of designs is rather big, and can be modified to a certain extent according to the taste of the maker.
It could be like the designs on the embossed pendoks: they follow certain base standards, but can be adapted to the maker's taste.

[David]

This is my own keris with Kinatah work, so any comment is welcome. I hope this one dont have "free" brass underneath.
Sorry for the low photo quality.
Looks beautiful and well executed regardless of age. :)

[David]

It is only my personal opinion, but I think the range of designs is rather big, and can be modified to a certain extent according to the taste of the maker.
It could be like the designs on the embossed pendoks: they follow certain base standards, but can be adapted to the maker's taste.
Gio, are you talking about traditional kinatah here or kinatah-like ornamentation?

[A. G. Maisey]

What I can remember about kinatah, without going back to my notebooks is this:-

following the Pati rebellion against Mataram and the victory of Mataram over Pati, kinatah was awarded to the various officers in the military forces:- a penewu was accorded a singo- gajah gonjo, a bupati kliwon was accorded kinatah kamarogan, a bupati dalem and a pangeran were accorded kinatah anggrek, singo barong and nogo.

Pati rebelled in 1617.

There are four types of kinatah kamarogan:- ranting, daun, bunga, buah. Bupatis are entitled to wear these motifs.

The family of a bupati dalem is entitled to kinatah anggrek, singo barong and manglar mongo.

Prior to the Pati expedition singo - gajah kinatah did not exist.

What I have written above refers to the Karaton Surakarta Hadiningrat. Other kratons may have different rules and different traditions.

Originally kinatah work was the prerogative of a ruler to award as recognition of honour, similar to the way we give medals and awards to people now --- in May this year Bob Dylan received the Medal of Freedom, USA's highest civilian honour, if Bobby Boy had lived in Mataram his keris probably would have received a kinatah award instead. That's the way it worked. Don't forget:- the keris is the symbol of the man:- honour the keris, you honour the man.

Since these kinatah awards were handed out by rulers, they needed to follow very strict rules that incorporated symbolism. It wasn't a haphazard daubing of gold, the kinatah motifs had meaning --- for instance, the singo barong is associated with warriors, just as the lion is associated with warriors in Hindu symbolism.

But all this went down the tubes when the kratons lost their power under Dutch colonial rule, and rich people outside the kraton decided it was OK to give themselves kinatah awards.

[rasjid]

Looks beautiful and well executed regardless of age. :)

Hi David,

Thanks, the Kinatah i believe done probably after 1980's not very recent and definetely not done before 1900's. The execution / made is following the proper way for Kinatah workmanship and higher level of the quality from current maker for the last 10 years.
I'm still watching current Kinatah done these few years and will wait for few more years maybe to commision one :D


Indonesia has many good artist for Kinatah work and also wood carving. The problem with "all" artist i believe they only gives you the best when they are not under pressure (time frame limit, could be money, etc).

Alan, thank you for the information. One Collector also mentioned to me that Kinatah on the Gandik should follow certain design with the gonjo. Of course, there are not documented anywhere, this information is only coming from his years of collecting old Kinatah keris workmanship and is Limited to what he saw.

Regards

Rasjid

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Rasjid, I'm quite sure that the amount of leeway given to individual artists working according to kraton instructions would be pretty minimal. There might be a bit of tolerance to accommodate individual style and competence, but the kraton would definitely lay down what they wanted.

If a particular form should appear on the gandhik and gonjo, and the kraton was not happy with what was produced, you can bet it would have been sent back to do again and again, until they were happy.

[Jean]

Hello Alan,
Thank you for the detailed information. Have you got some pictures of representative specimens of the various and traditional types of kinatah to share with us? It would be great!
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, I think you know my principles in respect of publishing photos of my personal keris:- I simply do not do it. I consider this practice to be disrespectful and in bad taste. This is a personal standard and is not intended as criticism of what others may do.

I am happy to publish photographs of keris I intend to sell, but I do not intend to sell any of my old kinatah keris at the present time.

Sorry.

[dbhmgb]

Jean, I think you know my principles in respect of publishing photos of my personal keris:- I simply do not do it. I consider this practice to be disrespectful and in bad taste.

Alan,

When I read this line my first though was "Fascinating"! From my recent readings I can understand your position. I'll take this opportunity to thank you for pointing me in the right direction as far as my education.

Dan

[Jussi M.]

Since these kinatah awards were handed out by rulers, they needed to follow very strict rules that incorporated symbolism. It wasn't a haphazard daubing of gold, the kinatah motifs had meaning (...)

But all this went down the tubes when the kratons lost their power under Dutch colonial rule, and rich people outside the kraton decided it was OK to give themselves kinatah awards.
http://ehdltd.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x265/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/5/4/5431p_2.jpg

[A. G. Maisey]

Dan, I don't claim my position on this to be the "right" position, but it is my position, and one that I learnt from those who have taught me.

These Javanese people who taught me much of what I know would no more think of displaying a personal keris to the entire world than they would think of sprouting wings and flying. You put something on the net and it is there for the entire world to see.

A personal keris is something very close to one's own personality,one's own inner self, in Javanese culture and society it symbolises its owner. There is no secret about this. Its not select knowledge, everybody knows it, even most western collectors. Given that this is so, how can it be proper to display one's personal keris for unknown people to gaze upon?

But my background and education in keris is a little bit different to that of most people. Most collectors, even present day Javanese collectors consider the keris that they keep as objects, perhaps art objects, perhaps esoteric objects, perhaps objects that represent wealth or prestige, but very rarely as extensions of themselves. Thus, for people who look at keris in this way there is clearly nothing wrong with showing everybody what they have.

Its just a bit of a difference in attitude:- if people wish to display their keris for all the world to see, by all means, go ahead and do so. But don't ask me to follow.

[GIO]

Gio, are you talking about traditional kinatah here or kinatah-like ornamentation?

Hi David,
I am talking about traditional kinatah.
I have seen (in books and museums) so many and different designs that it would be difficult for me to immagine that a kind of code may exist.
On the other hand I must recognize that a number of examples show (mainly on the ganja) that certain designs have been followed. I refer mainly to the designs of leaves and/or flowers, which, though different, follow an almost identical base design.
I do have a few specimens which have kinatah on the ganja only, on part of the blade or on the whole blade, but my poor culture on keris does not allow me to compress all designs in a number of rules.

[Rick]

I have seen three recurring forms of kinatah applied to ganjas (the exposed top); they are usually either the Lion, the Elephant or the Buffalo .

I'm sure the symbolism is there for certain acts or deeds performed in the service of a Ruler .

[David]

I have seen (in books and museums) so many and different designs that it would be difficult for me to immagine that a kind of code may exist.
On the other hand I must recognize that a number of examples show (mainly on the ganja) that certain designs have been followed. I refer mainly to the designs of leaves and/or flowers, which, though different, follow an almost identical base design.
But i believe Alan has already established that such a code did in fact exist, albeit, from his knowledge for one particular kraton. I does seem logical however that all kratons had a similar code, though the specification might be somewhat different from one to the other. This could allow for a good number of acceptable designs in general.

[Jean]

I would be interested to know if the kinatah motifs on the blades shown in some reference books such as "Keris Jawa" or the recent translation of Groneman's book are traditional or modern ones. The books are not with me at present so I can't pinpoint any specific example.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean. I'm afraid that I cannot answer your question.

I do not have an encyclopaedic knowledge of all possible variations of the motifs specified for use in the Kraton Surakarta, and then there are all the other specified motifs used in other kratons. In fact, I seriously doubt if anybody could answer your question.

If shown a particular kinatah motif I might be able to give an opinion as to whether it was a recent confection, or if it was something old. I can recognise older forms of singo barong, and naga, I can recognise older workmanship in lung-lungan motifs and sekar motifs, but I most certainly cannot ID everything either one way or the other. Haryonoguritno's book might not be a particularly good place to start, there is a lot of current era high art in that book.

One of the problems is this:- although a motif might be specified, the interpretation of the motif can vary from era to era , just the same as a keris dhapur can have exactly the same ricikan but totally different execution, which might be stylistc according to a maker, or stylistic according to an era.

I believe it would only be possible give a determination as to age and conformity with a set motif upon an individual basis, I don't think it would be possible to declare definitively that a certain example of a motif was the only valid way for that motif to be interpreted.

I have copies of the pattern books of several pendok craftsmen who work and who have worked in the Solo idiom. Throughout these books there are motifs that have the same name, but if you place each maker's pattern alongside the others, you will see significant variation in detail. All are valid renditions of the motif, but they vary. We can expect a similar thing in most, if not all craft work.

This variation becomes even greater when a motif transfers from one vehicle to another, for instance, a motif used in batik work and then used in some other form of decorative art. One such motif is the well known parang rusak. It is a common batik motif, and it is also a common pendok motif. The pendok motif contains the essential elements of the batik motif, but it varies greatly in detail. You can see the same thing over and over again in various motifs.

The information you are seeking is just too diverse to pin down to some sort of easily accessible formula or matrix, to understand the answers to the question you have raised we need to look at many, many examples that spread over many years and many forms, then we may be able to make a reasonable guess.

[Jean]

Hello Alan,
Thank you and I realize that my question is impossible to reply but you actually confirmed that many of the kinatah blades shown in the book "Keris Jawa" are recent pieces. Upon my return I will try to show more specimens of kinatah emas blades and I encourage other members to do the same just for sharing this nice art work, whether old or not. :)
Regards

[VANDOO]

THIS IS VERY INTERESTING, A BIT OVER MY HEAD AS ONE NOT TOO SCHOOLED IN THE KERIS BUT INTERESTING AND I CAN CERTIANLY ENJOY THE PICTURES ALONG WITH EVERYONE. :)
THE ONE EXAMPLE PICTURED INCORPORATES 4 DIFFERENT ANIMALS AND COVERS THE BLADE FROM FORTE TO TIP. IS THIS A RECENT EXAMPLE WHERE THE ARTIST WANTED TO INCORPORATE AS MANY HONORS AS POSSIBLE ON ONE BLADE? I SUSPECT THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN DONE ON A GOOD OLD EXAMPLE AS EACH METAL /HONOR WOULD LIKELY BE AWARDED SEPARATELY NOT LUMPED TOGETHER. THIS LOOKS ALL RIGHT AS ART BUT WOULD IT BE LIKELY AS AN HONOR AWARDED?.
WHAT ANIMALS ARE TRADITIONALY USED? THE EXAMPLE STATED ABOVE HAS A LION,DEER, WATER BUFFALOW OR COW AND AN ELEPHANT. THE ONLY OTHER ONES I CAN THINK OF ARE NAGAS/ DRAGONS AND PEOPLE OR BUDDA. ARE THESE THE ONLY TRADITIONAL DESIGNS USED OR ARE THERE OTHERS?
DOES THE FLORAL DESIGNS REPRESENT SOME HONOR OR ARE THEY THERE JUST TO EMBELISH THE DESIGN AND HONORED FIGURES.
THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW MUCH ALWAYS ASK THE MOST QUESTIONS
HOPEFULLY AT BEST THEY WILL BE GOOD QUESTIONS. :D

[Sajen]

Have received the keris and it is not so good as supposed but also not bad as many I have seen before. Here some first fast taken pictures.

[Sajen]

The kinatah seems to be from brass and very thin gold washed.

[Sajen]

And here, since Jean asked for, pictures of an IMHO old kinatah blade.

[Sajen]

By this blade i am unsure. I think that the blade is original but the gold is newly reworked. :shrug:

[Sajen]

And here recent Madura work.

[Jean]

The kinatah seems to be from brass and very thin gold washed.

Hello Detlef,
You may test the presence of gold at a jeweller's shop or by using a gold test kit. I don't see clearly the presence of brass on these pictures as the kinatah looks shiny. May be low carat and thin gold coat? High gold content kinatah (22 kt) has a deeper colour. :)
Regards

[Jean]

By this blade i am unsure. I think that the blade is original but the gold is newly reworked. :shrug:

Hello Detlef,
Thank you for the detailed pictures. This specimen is interesting because I am not sure that the Singo Barong is original to the blade: from the pictures there seems to be a discontinuity in the pamor lines at the interface of the blade and the singa, the pamor lines of the singa look denser than on the blade itself and the colour of the iron is a bit different. So the singa may have been welded later on the blade, what do you think?
I have a similar Singo Barong blade but it is more difficult to determine if the singa is more recent than the blade or not because it is more covered by gold, I will send detailed pictures in the next days.
This is my impression from the pictures but other opinions are of course welcome! :)
Regards

[Sajen]

Hello Detlef,
You may test the presence of gold at a jeweller's shop or by using a gold test kit. I don't see clearly the presence of brass on these pictures as the kinatah looks shiny. May be low carat and thin gold coat? High gold content kinatah (22 kt) has a deeper colour. :)
Regards

Hello Jean,

have a look at the last picture, at the gonjo you can clearly see the brass at some places where the gold is gone. And I have cleaned the green copper compound which is clearly a sign for brass.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Hello Detlef,
Thank you for the detailed pictures. This specimen is interesting because I am not sure that the Singo Barong is original to the blade: from the pictures there seems to be a discontinuity in the pamor lines at the interface of the blade and the singa, the pamor lines of the singa look denser than on the blade itself and the colour of the iron is a bit different. So the singa may have been welded later on the blade, what do you think?

This is my impression from the pictures but other opinions are of course welcome! :)
Regards

Hello Jean,

have had the same thoughts before but I am very very unsure by this. When it is like you suppose someone have done a good work.

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

In the period between 1812 and 1818 Stamford Raffles, who was Governor of Jawa during the period it was under British control, remarked that the keris in Jawa had become an item of dress . He said something like:-

" the keris in Jawa now occupies a position similar that of the small sword in Europe 50 years ago".

So 200 years ago the keris in Jawa had to a very great extent already lost the societal position it had held during the Majapahit era and the period concurrent with the rise of Islam in Jawa. If we consider the line of dominant kingdoms in Jawa, through to perhaps the mid 17th century, when the involvement of the Dutch began to have a very real erosive effect on Javanese power and culture, we can very easily understand that the position of the keris in Jawa had already undergone significant change during the more than 150 years to 1812 when Raffles made his observation.

So, when we talk about "old keris", and "new keris", exactly what sort of time frame are we talking about in respect of Jawa?

Many Javanese people consider keris that can be classified as Mataram , Sultan Agung to be the last of the "old keris", or if not that, then the first of the "new keris".

In other words "old keris" roughly pre-date 1650.

When the Japanese occupied Jawa during WWII an era came to an end. Under Dutch colonialism the Central Javanese kingdoms were still accorded a token level of power and traditional Javanese kraton culture was still alive, although to a much lesser degree than had been the case a couple of hundred years earlier. There were still great empus working under the aegis of the ruler of Surakarta. WWII put a lid on all of that, and keris culture did not really revive until the mid-1970's.

So the other landmark date that attaches to keris is 1942.

Javanese keris of the period prior to 1942 can be considered to still be "old keris" in one interpretation of the concept.


In respect of the "traditional" motifs used in keris kinatah work, my understanding of this use of the word "traditional" is that the motifs involved should be motifs that also occur in the descendents of the keris of Majapahit which have continued in unpolluted form, that is, the keris of Bali.

Many of the motifs used in keris ornamentation and other Javanese ornamentation can be associated with Islamic or European roots, not indigenous nor Hindu roots.

So, for me a traditional keris motif is one that can be associated with either a Javanese indigenous root or a Hindu root. Admitted, this is a personal opinion, but if we look at the traditional motifs used in kraton keris culture, my opinion seems to reflect the stance adopted by at least the senior kraton of Jawa, the Karaton Surakarta Hadiningrat.

Perhaps when we wish to use the words "old", or "traditional" in respect of the Javanese keris, we might wish to consider exactly what we mean with these two concepts.

[David]

And here, since Jean asked for, pictures of an IMHO old kinatah blade.
This may be an "old" blade", but the winged figure appears to my eyes to be a much later addition, as then would be the kinatah. Doesn't seem like the type of workmanship i would expect from older kinatah, though the material may well be real gold. :shrug:

[Jean]

Hello Jean,

have a look at the last picture, at the gonjo you can clearly see the brass at some places where the gold is gone. And I have cleaned the green copper compound which is clearly a sign for brass.

Regards,

Detlef

OK Detlef, you cleaned it very well! :)

[Jean]

Perhaps when we wish to use the words "old", or "traditional" in respect of the Javanese keris, we might wish to consider exactly what we mean with these two concepts.

Hello Alan,
Yes, this is a difficult question and subject to endless discussion. Personally I classify as old a blade estimated to date from about 1860 to WWII (Javanese nem-neman period). For the ones estimated as older , I classify them as very old (1600-1860 i.e Mataram and early Yogyakarta & Surakarta periods), antique (1300-1600 or Majapahit, Pajajaran to Pajang periods), and early krisses (before Majapahit period). This may not be correct but in absence of a better definition from the experts (which I would welcome) it suits my requirements.
And regarding the traditional kinatah motifs, I agree with your definition (Hindu or Javanese origin and endorsed by the kratons). :)
Best regards
Jean

[David]

Personally I classify as old a blade dating from about 1860 to WWII (Javanese nem-neman period). For the older ones (or supposed to be so), I classify them as very old (1600-1860 i.e Mataram and early Yogyakarta & Surakarta periods), antique (1300-1600 or Majapahit, Pajajaran to Pajang periods), and early krisses (before Majapahit period). This may not be correct but in absence of a better definition from the experts (which I would welcome) it suits my requirements.
I think we all have our own unique guidelines for this Jean, which is perhaps part of the problem. I don't really question yours in general, though you might want to re-consider your use of the word "antique" in this regard. I say this because "antique" does have a fairly commonly accepted definition of items which are over 100 years old. Since you use that term to describe only items that are 400-700 years old specifically you might find that when you use the term in this manner that confusion might ensue. :shrug:

[Sajen]

This may be an "old" blade", but the winged figure appears to my eyes to be a much later addition, as then would be the kinatah. Doesn't seem like the type of workmanship i would expect from older kinatah, though the material may well be real gold. :shrug:

Good possible but the figure and with it the kinatah work is certainly not added recently, have a look to the gonjo where the gold is majoritarian gone. This blade isn't a great work of art but the kinatah is done with 22 carat gold when I remember correct.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

This may be an "old" blade", but the winged figure .....

BTW, I think that the "winged figure" is a nymph, a blade with a similar gandhik figure is shown in "Keris Jawa antara Mistik dan Nalar" from Haryono Haryoguritno on page 167 (Gbr. 4.20r) labeled as gandhik WIDADARI. Widadari is a heaven nymph so far I know.

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

I think we all have our own unique guidelines for this Jean, which is perhaps part of the problem. I don't really question yours in general, though you might want to re-consider your use of the word "antique" in this regard. I say this because "antique" does have a fairly commonly accepted definition of items which are over 100 years old. Since you use that term to describe only items that are 400-700 years old specifically you might find that when you use the term in this manner that confusion might ensue. :shrug:

Hello David,
Thank you for your valid comment; I could not find a better term and the confusion comes from the French language in which one definition of antique is just very old/ very ancient without any specific age in mind. Any suggestion for a replacement term?
Regards

[David]

Any suggestion for a replacement term?
hmmm....by your standard, perhaps "very, VERY old"? ;) :D

[David]

Good possible but the figure and with it the kinatah work is certainly not added recently, have a look to the gonjo where the gold is majoritarian gone.
hmmm....i'm not sure i see anything in the gonjo area that tells me one way or another when this decoration was added. The simple fact that some of it is now gone does not determine the age of the work for me. As you point out, this blade is no great work of art. My suspicion here is that the carving and gold were added in recent times to increase the interest and resale of this blade. It is, of course, just a suspicion. I don't want to take away from your joy of this blade, but you did present it as an "old" example of kinatah and i still have serious doubts to that. :shrug:

[A. G. Maisey]

Old keris.

When we begin to attempt to put an actual age on a keris blade we really are digging ourselves further and further into a mire.

How is it possible to estimate the age of a keris blade?

Javanese people have overcome this problem by simply ignoring the actual age of a blade in years and opting to classify a blade in stylistic and material terms:- the dreaded tangguh.

But this is not particularly reliable when attempting to estimate age of a blade, as throughout history, copies of keris from earlier eras have been made. The materials used in early keris are still available today, as they have been throughout history. If a talented maker were to make a keris of Majapahit pattern today, using the type of materials used in tangguh Majapahit keris, in two or three hundred years, who could know if this was a well preserved keris from the 15th century, or a copy from the 21st century?

It is possible to distress a blade to make it look positively archaic.

Less than honest dealers have found this to be a particularly valuable technique, especially to assist sales to those people who prize age above excellence and who have a very confused and minimal understanding of the keris.

A couple of months ago I had the opportunity to examine a good number of very early keris held in European museums. Many of these keris had a recorded provenance dating back to the beginning of the 1600's. Most were in perfect condition, some were in as brand new condition. Some displayed a style that is usually associated with later periods. A couple bore extremely complex pamor, a feature that we do not expect to see in truly old keris.

I would defy anybody to examine these keris and in the absence of any prior knowledge of provenance, date them to the 1600's.

Many years ago I was able to handle a number of Javanese keris that were kept in the Surakarta Karaton storage rooms. Many of these keris were well over 100 years old, but they looked as if they had come off the work bench the day before I saw them.
So how do we estimate the age of a keris blade?

In my opinion there is only one certain way, and that is by knowledge of provenance.

Lacking this knowledge we can turn to tangguh, which will give a stylistic guide to era, which can then be matched to some degree against material type. We can feed the impression of overall condition into the equation, but as already pointed out, this is not at all reliable.

For an experienced person, tangguh will give an indication --- only an indication --- of the era when a blade might have been made. A blade that is classifiable as a recent tangguh is more likely to be from the related era than a blade that is classified as an archaic tangguh.

In other words, Mataram Amangkurat is more likely to be from around 1700 than Janggala is to be from around 1200.

Surakarta can be relied on to date from after the middle of the 1700's, but Mataram Senopaten is likely to be a little later than 1600 --- perhaps as much as one generation later.

This gives some indication of the accuracy with which we can date a keris blade when using tangguh:- a Surakarta blade from, say, 1800, if in perfect condition is virtually indistinguishable from a Surakarta blade of the early 20th century. Thus, extending the approximate age of a Mataram Senopaten blade by a generation is really being very conservative.

But one thing does seem to be true:- if we take a group of people knowledgeable in tangguh, they will invariably classify more recent blades according to more recent eras and older blades according to older eras. In other words, a Surakarta blade will never be classified as Majapahit, nor a Pajang blade as Hamengkubuwanaan.

So although tangguh has been horribly corrupted by the current generation of slippery shonks with whom we are all familiar, it is still the only base that may give us some guidance in respect of the age of a keris blade.

It is totally useless for anybody to just look at a blade and then form the opinion that it is "old".

I think we've all heard the jokes about the thirty year old gigolo who was mistaken for an old man of 70. He had had a hard life. The same can apply to keris.

[Jean]

Hello Jean,

have had the same thoughts before but I am very very unsure by this. When it is like you suppose someone have done a good work.

Regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,
Yes, good work indeed. I attach the pictures of my own Singabarong kris, the kinatah work is not very fine and partly gone as seen on the detailed pictures and there is a welded patch on the paws.
The singa does not obviously seem to have been added later because the pamor lines appear quite continuous but I am not sure about it. Any comment?
Regards

[Jussi M.]

I think we've all heard the jokes about the thirty year old gigolo who was mistaken for an old man of 70. He had had a hard life. The same can apply to keris.

Never mind the ancient pointy things - I´d like to hear more of this subject! :D