Long Philippine Swords

[Robert]

Would either one of these swords be classified as a "sansibar"? The top sword on the left is two pictures of the same sword. It is 27-7/8 inches long, 3/8 inch at the hilt and 1-1/2 inches wide at its widest. The blade is V ground. The first 9 inches from the tip back on the top edge of the blade is sharpened. The second sword (the one on the right and bottom picture of grip) I haven't received yet and all I really know for sure on measurements is the length, 28 inches. The second one reminds me alot of one other sword that I have but is much longer. Any and all information on these swords will be greatly appreciated. :D

[LabanTayo]

I'll let themorningstar answer this one......

[themorningstar]

wow! great swords.... now i know who sniped them from me...



might be a sansibar... might be a pinuti... possible sundang... maybe a talibong... hmmm, might even get away with calling it a binasbad... some might just say patalim....


nah... it's a sundang...

[LabanTayo]

looks like a very long gunong....or pedang....maybe some indo influence....or spanish..maybe an espada.
espada largo....thats what it is. i think. :confused:
now knowing what our train of thought on deciding what a to call a sword, it should be easier to figure out what the name is.

[zelbone]

...it's a bolo!

[zamboanga]

here is a link about sansibar swords:

http://www.cebueskrima.s5.com/photo5.html

[Ian]

So the experts on Visayan swords are stumped to name this one! :D

I was hoping to learn more from the questions posed by Robert. I guess I'm left even more confused by the terms that have come and gone, and come again. Is there any sensible way of describing these swords, other than calling them Visayan "swords?"

Does one have to born locally to know the code for what to call the various styles and forms? If so, is there anyone on this forum who can reasonably contribute to that discussion, or are we left with the position that talibong or sundang (or some other generic term for "sword" in one of the local dialects) is as close as we can get?

That seems unsatisfactory to me and I hope our Filipino forumites can shed some light on a rational nosology for these swords ... If not here, where else will we gain such information?

Ian.

[MABAGANI]

They look like runt of the mill pig stickers. If you're going to snipe do you honestly think someone's going to give information. Recently, ebay has been leaving a bitter taste in the mouth, when Filipino sword collectors from the forum find sleepers that get sniped by another member. In the early days of ebay, a few hardcore collectors at least had the courtesy to email so we wouldn't have to pay more than we had to and that was before we were members of this forum. So now those $9.99 bolos worth less than a $100 are going for some over inflated prices. Such is life, I'm abandoning ebay again and going back to the dealers.
Re: names- do your own research and you'll feel more confident about what to call them, I like Zonneveld's lead, multiple labels depending on the locale, its the same with Filipino swords if you're still confused and want obvious answers.

[BSMStar]

So the experts on Visayan swords are stumped to name this one! :D

Does one have to born locally to know the code for what to call the various styles and forms? If so, is there anyone on this forum who can reasonably contribute to that discussion, or are we left with the position that talibong or sundang (or some other generic term for "sword" in one of the local dialects) is as close as we can get?

Ian.

Ian, sometimes the answers are not all easy. Sometimes the question will form its own answer and it may not be the answer one expects. I have seen these swords travel through different hands and they are indeed called by different names.

I have a deep respect for the experience and knowledge of themorningstar, LabanTayo and zelbone (and many others). It may be more meaningful to ask if anyone would call it a sansibar? :confused: Otherwise, I would have to agree with their answers.

[Ian]

It may be more meaningful to ask if anyone would call it a sansibar? :confused: Otherwise, I would have to agree with their answers.
BSMStar:

I think that is exactly what Robert asked in the first sentence of his post: "Would either one of these swords be classified as a "sansibar"?" I don't think he really received an answer so far to that question.

Ian.

[BSMStar]

Would either one of these swords be classified as a "sansibar"? :D

Just trying to keep things honest Ian. The original question was not if someone (meaning what Region) would classify it, it was more of a generic question if the sword would be classified as a sansibar.

The supplied link by zamboanga (great link!) even added the word bolo (great call zelbone). So is it a sansibar? A sansibar bolo? One can go on and on repeating the earlier names.....

We have to step out of our western mind set and see these objects in their local setting and culture(s). The issue for us is that they indeed cross over multiple cultures and are called many names in many dialects.

I know personally at times, that it feels like I am trapped in a maze with these names. But heck, where would the fun be if it were all easy? :D

[LabanTayo]

Ian,
We know what the name, place and date of the sword.
We’re not stumped. Sometimes doing your own research has the best rewards.
The more we learn, the less we know.

In a prior thread, I stated that if you know the local of the sword, you’ll know the name.
That’s why we throw so many names out on the forum. They’re all correct, depending on the dialect where the sword was made. And that could change by traveling 50 km in any direction.

If we were to stick to the National Dialect of Tagalog, then they’re all Bolo’s and Itak’s. Unless you were Tagalog from Batangas or Laguna, then they’re Binakoko or Gulok. Or the Tagalog from Rizal provence, they might be called Espada or Matulis.
See what I mean????

Talibong and Sundang would be correct in naming the swords from the Visayas, because sometimes, we don’t even know where it was made (in the Visayas).

That is best piece of advice I can give the other forum members.

[ariel]

I was asking the very same question several times already and never got an answer.
Now I know why....
Well, guys, the philosophical musings of the "find your own answer to open your mind" variety just do not cut!
Either we know the answer or we do not.
Either the answer exist or does not.
Either there are different names for the same sword in different dialects or we just call them all "a pigsticker" and go home.
Zonneveld listed several names for the same sword on multiple occasions: this is perfectly legitimate. After all, Persian Qama and Georgian Satevari describe the same weapon and the differences are philological. The generic Arabian Sayf or Turkish Kilic means just "sword", but within those broad categories there are specific weapons.
I just cannot believe that our "Philippino" colleagues can not agree on the proper taxonomy of sansibar, pinuti, binagong etc.

[Rick]

Ariel , I get the impression that sword terminology in the Philippines is at least every bit as confusing as keris terminology is in Indonesia .
What is called by one name in a certain area is called by another a few kilometers away .
I think that point was made earlier in the thread by more than one person.


Kind of like the Italian sandwich in America .
In one place it's a 'Sub' in another a 'Grinder' , some other places it's called a 'Wedge' , a 'Hoagie' ad infinitum . :D

I'd also like to address another subject that has come up in this thread ; the issue of sniping .
Whether this is ethical or not the point is moot ; eBay allows it .

I am much of the same mind as Mabagani in that I rarely use eBay any more .
The prices are inflated most of the time and so many seek the same thing .

Before hard feelings get involved though I think we all need to realize one thing ; not everyone here knows every Forum member's eBay username .
My forum name is not my eBay handle ; how many of you have the same user ID as your forum name ?

[LabanTayo]

how many of you have the same user ID as your forum name ?


I do.........

[Rick]

Well , I guess I'd be Rick 324576 or something like that then .
Instead , I'm raffles and if I get sniped then so be it ; I've been sniped by other members before . <shrug>
I've never taken it personally .

[LabanTayo]

sorry, double post

[LabanTayo]

I was asking the very same question several times already and never got an answer.
Now I know why....
Well, guys, the philosophical musings of the "find your own answer to open your mind" variety just do not cut!
Either we know the answer or we do not.
Either the answer exist or does not.
Either there are different names for the same sword in different dialects or we just call them all "a pigsticker" and go home.
Zonneveld listed several names for the same sword on multiple occasions: this is perfectly legitimate. After all, Persian Qama and Georgian Satevari describe the same weapon and the differences are philological. The generic Arabian Sayf or Turkish Kilic means just "sword", but within those broad categories there are specific weapons.
I just cannot believe that our "Philippino" colleagues can not agree on the proper taxonomy of sansibar, pinuti, binagong etc.

Ariel,
If only the Filipino (correct spelling) swords have been researched and documented as well as the Euro/Indo/Persian swords have been, then all of our questions would have been answered.
Cato tried with Moro swords. We are trying with Visayan swords. But, before we post/publish anything on Visayan swords that state a fact, we need to make sure what the name of any given sword is. What we had once thought to be a Tenegre, is now wrong. We have discovered many other names and are still trying to categorize them by blade shape and locale. We do not want to be hypocritical of ourselves down the road, so we do not offer any new facts until we have proven them to be concrete.

Here's an example:
The sword Robert posted here in this thread.
In Samar/Leyte its called a Sansibar.
Take the same sword to Negros, they will call it a Pinute. Take it to Panay, they will call it a Talibong. Take it to Manila, its a Bolo. Take it to Jolo, its a Parang. Take it to a Gun and Knife show, its now called a Confederate sword or Long Bowie knife. And its the same sword!!! :confused:

Ariel, we do not mean to seem snubbish to you or the other Forumites, but thats our situation. We have some of the answers, but need to be sure of them before letting them out. Thats why we have been quiet for a while.

[BSMStar]

In Samar/Leyte its called a Sansibar.
Take the same sword to Negros, they will call it a Pinute. Take it to Panay, they will call it a Talibong. Take it to Manila, its a Bolo. Take it to Jolo, its a Parang. Take it to a Gun and Knife show, its now called a Confederate sword or Long Bowie knife. And its the same sword!!!

Hey, I can get more money for it on eBay as a Confederate sword! :D :D :D

[zelbone]

...well....I'll say it again

I wouldn't get hung up on terminology...it's a moot point. Even for us "native" Visayans (er...haf Visayan :rolleyes: ) it's confusing. I learned that firsthand myself in the Visayas...exposed to 4 different dialects...just 4!

LabanTayo said something to us last night during silat practice that was relative..."you could learn a thousand ways to punch, but in the end a punch is just a punch."

...same as a sword is just a sword.

And in the Visayas, it really doesn't matter what a sword is called when one is pointed at you...all that matters then is the sword you have in your hand and your confidence in you're ability to use it.

That is what Visayan swords are all about...the reality of it...they are just instruments of death...

...and it's not that we (i.e. the Filipino members here) cannot agree to proper taxonomy on this issue...but it's more out of respect for each others dialect/culture/heritage. The last thing a Filipino wants to do is offend another Filipino. As I've said before offending another Filipino usually ends up with drawn swords....thinks about...why are there so many different Filipino swords :D ?


...as for sniping

I understand eBay is fair game...it's an auction. But, if I see another forum member bidding on something, I usually leave it alone or at least email that person to work out a deal. We each have our own niche and most of us know each other's niche. But what really upsets me is to be sniped by someone here and then have them post it and ask for MY opinion. I've been called out on several threads lately as an "expert" on certain pieces that I've been sniped on. Do you guys really think I will say anything then? I may be the one with the "answers" but sniping me and then posting them here won't get those "answers" from me.

[Rick]

You sure can ! ;) :D
We all have seen some wickedly expensive CW 'mistakes' .

Zel , I see your point and I would never intentionally snipe another Forum Member . Once a forum member has been outbid by another non member the waters get more muddied .

Polite contact before bidding is a very nice thing to do . :)

[Andrew]

Thanks to everyone for the information that has been provided about these swords. I can empathize with those of you researching Visayan weapons. We've encountered many of the same problems with regard to mainland SEA. I can also completely understand the reluctance to come forward with definitive statements before a comfort level with the information and data has been reached.

With regard to the discussion of eBay etiquette, I think that is off-topic for this thread and would request the conversation be continued via PM or email, or a new thread be started.

Thanks, guys.
Andrew

[BSMStar]

You sure can ! ;) :D
We all have seen some wickedly expensive CW 'mistakes' .


Yea, like the time I saw a South Vietnamese Marine cap insignia (Globe and Anchor) put up for auction as a CW Marine cap insignia..... Truly, they tend to be crudely hand cast, but the map of Vietnam on the center of the globe is kind of a give away. A rare piece, but not Civil War rare or priced.

Sorry, I am getting off the subject.

My handle on eBay is cageybee91.

I would love to obtain one Visayan deity hilt sword some day, but alas... I guess I will drool at the posted pictures and the Avatars. :o

[LabanTayo]

[QUOTE=zelboneLabanTayo said something to us last night during silat practice that was relative..."you could learn a thousand ways to punch, but in the end a punch is just a punch."
[QUOTE]

Just want to give credit for the reference, Bruce Lee made the comment
"a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick".

[Spunjer]

lol @ this thread...

[themorningstar]

what an interesting thread so far....
a few words to fellow forumites....
labantayo and zelbone- i share your same opinions.. but we all know it's all sundang...or is it??? lolz..maraming salamat...
mabagani- thank you swordbrother ( pig-sticker.. gotta love it )
zamboanga- the pictures of the swords on the cebueskrima site are actually mine ( as a matter of fact their next to me lolz..)
ian- i am not an expert on visayan swords, but i am not stumped, i know exactly what the sword is and where its from. my reason for fact omission is due to sniping difficulties beyond my control. lolz.
bsmstar- hello and thank you for your input, i like your process theory. regarding confederate sword, you would actually be surprised at how many turn up under that heading on ebay... lolz.. good luck on your deity hilt hunt
ariel- one answer to your question is actually in my statement " it's a sundang" it took a few forum members a little bit to figure it out, but they did. i am confident you will find the answer as well.
rick- i don't know you, but cheers!
spunjer-i'm right along with you... lolz...

[themorningstar]

oh.... what is wrong with sundang? he asked for any and all comments?
all the visayan sword misfits agree with it, i dont see anything wrong....
if you want, we can just use patalim...

[zelbone]

...it's a bolo!

[themorningstar]

zel, your killin me.....
but on a factual note... he is correct.
if you were to go and see a panday, and ask him what's he polishing... he would say bolo.
lolz..

[Andrew]

In addition to the regional/linguistic differences in the names for these swords, I assume there are also differences in the forms? (I imagine nailing this down is what gives you guys the most trouble.)

[LabanTayo]

In addition to the regional/linguistic differences in the names for these swords, I assume there are also differences in the forms? (I imagine nailing this down is what gives you guys the most trouble.)

Amen brother,
You are 100% correct.

[VANDOO]

FROM WHAT LITTLE I COULD GATHER FROM POSTS AND THE SITE LISTED IT WOULD SEEM THAT THE NAME CAME ABOUT IN A CERTAIN PLACE AT A CERTAIN TIME AND WAS USED BY ONE PARTICULAR GROUP OF FIGHTERS IN THAT CONFLICT.
IT IS BASICALY A KLEWANG TYPE BUT DUE TO THE REGION WHERE IT WAS USED AND THE GROUP USING IT NOW IT HAS A DIFFERENT NAME AT LEAST IN THAT REGION. IN ANOTHER PLACE AT ANOTHER TIME IT MAY GAIN A NEW NAME DUE TO THE GROUP USING IT OR THE CONFLICT IT IS USED IN.

:D NO WONDER ITS SO CONFUSING AS THERE ARE MANY FACTORS INVOLVED IN A NAME SO IT IS NOT UNUSUAL THAT ONE FORM MAY HAVE MANY NAMES. 1. REGION 2. TRIBE OR GROUP 3. TIME PERIOD 4. NAMES APPLIED TO IT BY THE OTHER SIDE IN THE CONFLICT AND PROBABLY A FEW MORE FACTORS I HAVE NOT THOUGHT OF. I HAVE SEVERAL OF THESE ONE EVEN HAS A BUILT IN KNUCKLE DUSTER GAURD SO THERE IS ALSO 5. VARIATION WITHIN THE TYPE.
IF PEOPLE ARE INVOLVED THINGS ARE BOUND TO GET COMPLICATED (MURPHYS LAW #657 ) :D

[BSMStar]

As my children would say on any long journey..... are we there yet???? :D

[Robert]

Well seeing as this thread was started by me, I thought it was time for me to make a few comments.
To my own regret, I said "All comments are welcome" when I should have said all relevant comments.
To all the people that tried to help answer my question, you have my thanks.
To the people that turned this thread into a place to vent their frustration for not bidding high enough
on e-bay to win, all I have to say to you is why don't you go stand in front of a mirror an complain to the
person who is actually the cause of your unhappiness. I bid what the sword was worth to me, not knowing
that it was inappropriate in your eyes to do so for in an open auction like e-bay. When the auction first starts if
I find an item that I am interested in, I put it on my watch list. Then I decide how much I want to bid on said
item. Then when the bidding is coming to a close and if the price on the item is not more than I decided
to bid for it, I place my bid. I've been going to auctions for years and never once has the winning bid been decided
by who bid first but only by who bid the highest. I thought e-bay was the same way, excuse me for having such
a silly idea as that. And as far as doing my own research, that is how I came to ask my question about the swords
to start with. So if anyone wants to hold back information and knowledge because they are having a problem dealing with the reality
of how an auction works, more power to you.
LabanTayo, you were out bid by another before I even bid.
MABAGANI, you didn't bid at all so I don't know what your problem is and if you had a problem with me, why did you e-mail me right after the auction was over to see if I would sell you the sword?
One more thing, I've never noticed that it bothered anyone here to out bid me on something that I was biding on. Again my thanks to the people who tried to help.

Robert

[Andrew]

Gentlemen,

Let's please return to discussion of these swords.

Any further public discussion of the specific auction, will result in this thread being locked.

I am saddened. This site has historically been devoid of this type of quarrel. Let's not let something like an eBay auction spoil that. :(

[LabanTayo]

Gentlemen,

Let's please return to discussion of these swords.

Any further public discussion of the specific auction, will result in this thread being locked.

:(

Andrew and the rest of the Moderators, I will respect your wishes.
Robert, good luck finding answers to your future questions. Bahala ka.

[MABAGANI]

I was willing to pick it up from you if you didn't like it because my swordbrother lost it in an outbid, even though we thought it was overpriced, its not for me, I have an old one already. I like Moro sundang...
btw I did pass on a few things you bid on because I knew you were from the forum.
I aired my observation of current ebay trends and like I wrote I'd rather go back to dealers and pay top dollar for quality examples rather than take a chance on auction photos.

[zelbone]

...it's a bolo :D !

[MABAGANI]

...same as a sword is just a sword.


...unless its a barung.

[MABAGANI]

i heard, i have that bolo already.lolz

[Federico]

I vote that we as Filipinos,......form a union and declare that from now on, ......all weapons from the Sandata, .....shall for here forth be ever know as, .................."pig-stickers" :D

Just think about it, no more lost nights and money doing research, or reduced health from breathing in the dust from 100 year old books. We will then all know that there is just one simple answer to all our questions.

Thus the allure of the Sandata will fade for non-Filipinos, and we can go on to horde them all to ourselves :eek: :D Oh wait did I say the quiet part out loud again. :p ;) :D

[MABAGANI]

...unless its a barung.
No need to reprimand, if you followed the thread for the most part posts were lighthearted. The irony from the beginning was posting photos and asking questions after outbidding the guys who likely had the answers. The answers were not straightforward but if you read closely they were answered.

[Bill]

It's the fault of the press, in Negros Oriental I have been told there are only 2 types of swords; Sundang (fighting) and Bolo (work). Now they make it confusing: "hacked him several times with a "pinuti (bolo)" over their personal grudges" http://www.visayandailystar.com/2005/December/02/negor2.htm

[Spunjer]

monkey wrench, coming up...


http://panaynews.com.ph/archives/0612/news5.htm

...and the pic that came with the news:

http://elgu.ncc.gov.ph/ecommunity/iloilo/image/bolow1.jpg

[LabanTayo]

Spunjer,
We saw the same swords in Negros this year, and guess what.....they had different names than those in the article......arrrggghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:
I bought the one they called Binangon in Negros...the article calls it Binakuko.... :confused:
Damn dialects!!!!
So, we're back to calling it a Bolo or Sundang. :eek:

[LabanTayo]

I vote that we as Filipinos,......form a union and declare that from now on, ......all weapons from the Sandata, .....shall for here forth be ever know as, .................."pig-stickers" :D

Just think about it, no more lost nights and money doing research, or reduced health from breathing in the dust from 100 year old books. We will then all know that there is just one simple answer to all our questions.

Thus the allure of the Sandata will fade for non-Filipinos, and we can go on to horde them all to ourselves :eek: :D Oh wait did I say the quiet part out loud again.


Federico, good idea, brother.
But, what is "pig-sticker" in Waray-Waray?
Spunjer can say it the Illongo way, Zel will say it the Aklanon/Batangueno way, I'll say it the Tagalog/Kapampangan way, Themorningstar will say the Tausug way, Mabagani will say it his way, Battara his way and so on and so on.
Then we'll have a new list of names to be confused with. :D :D :D

[Robert]

Well folks, this will be my last post in this forum. As Laban Tayo put it when he said to me "Good luck in finding answers to you future questions". Just to set the record straight before I leave here is a link to the bids on this sword. http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=6580681731 As you will be able to see, Labin Tayo had already been out bid when I placed my bid. I would have thought that he might have been happy to see another forum member get this item but that was NOT the case. He has sense followed it up with seeking out every thing that I have placed bids on and out bid me. This is not a problem as bidding on something because you like it and would like to have it is quite acceptable but bidding on it in a child like way to get revenge on someone is not. My thanks go out to ALL the members of this forum Laban Tayo included for all the help that I have received here. Good by and good luck!!

Robert

[Lee]

Ok folks, just so you know, I am fuming about some of what has gone on in this thread.

[Mark]

Let me just add that my feelings are the same, and I can specifically say that in my case I am fuming over the childness, pettiness, vindictiveness and outright hypocrasy shown over what was (a) a completely honest and relevant question, and (b) a completely legitimate win in a public auction that was done in a well-know and accepted manner for on-line auctions, and I dare say one that has probably been used by every one of those who have now complained about it. :rolleyes: Hypocracy is a personal sore spot for me. :mad:

Mark

PS: Necesh, thank you for taking on the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest in that other thread (and I mean that honestly). While the subject must be considered closed on the public forum, it is refreshing to hear a voice of truth and reason in an emotionally-driven discussion.

PPS: Feel free to be pissed at me for posting on a closed thread. If you have the audacity to try and defend these actions, send me an e-mail or PM. :mad: It is a moderator's perrogative to have the final word. Try to remember, membership in this Forum, and all the good things that go with it, are privileges here, not rights.