Tabak?

[Sajen]

Yesterday I win with help of a other member this philippine bolo and I think/believe that it is a Panpangan tabak. I think that it is a quite old one, maybe around 1900 and was surprised that it don't went much higher. What do you think?

All comments are very welcome,

Detlef

[Lew]

Congrats

You are correct a tabak circa 1900-10.

Lew

[Sajen]

Thank you Lew, do you think that there have been wire around the handle?

Regards,

Detlef

[Lew]

Thank you Lew, do you think that there have been wire around the handle?

Regards,

Detlef

Most definately unfortunately it came off. Still a nice solid older example :D.

[Sajen]

Most definately unfortunately it came off. Still a nice solid older example :D.


Thank's again! :)

[Robert]

Hello Detlef and my congratulations to you on winning this most wonderful piece. If I had placed my bid like I thought I had it might have been the other way around.;) Imagine My surprise when the auction ended and I saw the price that this went for and found I had forgotten to place my bid like I thought I had.:eek: :( Well at least I know that it has gone to good home.:D I agree with Lew on this except I think it could date from 1890 to about 1910. Look in the grooves for small holes where wire might have been fixed to the hilt right next to the collars. On almost all of the ones I have the wire decoration seems to have been added after the knives/swords were finished. Again my congratulations on your win and remember if you ever get tired of looking at this I will be more than happy to give it a new home with lots of new friends.:D


Robert

[Battara]

Interesting piece. The wrap may have had a thin band of brass and a twisted wire piece of brass, both encircling the hilt.

[Sajen]

Hello Detlef and my congratulations to you on winning this most wonderful piece. If I had placed my bid like I thought I had it might have been the other way around.;) Imagine My surprise when the auction ended and I saw the price that this went for and found I had forgotten to place my bid like I thought I had.:eek: :( Well at least I know that it has gone to good home.:D I agree with Lew on this except I think it could date from 1890 to about 1910. Look in the grooves for small holes where wire might have been fixed to the hilt right next to the collars. On almost all of the ones I have the wire decoration seems to have been added after the knives/swords were finished. Again my congratulations on your win and remember if you ever get tired of looking at this I will be more than happy to give it a new home with lots of new friends.:D


Robert

Thank you Robert,

will look if I can find holes when I have it in my hands. When I ever get tired of it you will be the first who will know about! :D

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Interesting piece. The wrap may have had a thin band of brass and a twisted wire piece of brass, both encircling the hilt.


Thank you Jose,

when I have it I will check if there ever have been a wire around the hilt. What is your guess about the age?

Regards,

Detlef

[Battara]

Around the turn of the 20th century?

[Sajen]

Around the turn of the 20th century?

So we all have agreement! :) :cool:

[Spunjer]

Yesterday I win with help of a other member this philippine bolo and I think/believe that it is a Panpangan tabak....
All comments are very welcome,

Detlef


hello detlef,
beautiful tabak! i don't really have much in my collection in the way of luzon pieces, save for a first republic dagger and a tabak. have you etched it? it might be laminated. i was pleasantly surprise when i found out the blade on mine was laminated, which i thought it was unusual to see on tagalog weaponries.

btw, just a slight correction: it's not Panpangan or Pampangan. if you ask someone from Pampanga what do they call themselves, it's Kapampangan. might sound minor, but the prefix KA makes a lot of difference... not quite versed in kapampangan dialect, but in deep tagalog, Ka is used as a prefix to someone's name as a sign of respect.

[Sajen]

hello detlef,
beautiful tabak! i don't really have much in my collection in the way of luzon pieces, save for a first republic dagger and a tabak. have you etched it? it might be laminated. i was pleasantly surprise when i found out the blade on mine was laminated, which i thought it was unusual to see on tagalog weaponries.

btw, just a slight correction: it's not Panpangan or Pampangan. if you ask someone from Pampanga what do they call themselves, it's Kapampangan. might sound minor, but the prefix KA makes a lot of difference... not quite versed in kapampangan dialect, but in deep tagalog, Ka is used as a prefix to someone's name as a sign of respect.


Thank you Spunjer! Until now I don't received it but will try a etch when I have it in my hands. And thank you for the information about spelling Kapampangan.

Regards,

Detlef

[Spunjer]

yes, it will be interesting to see the lamination, if there's any. i was looking at some of the closeups and i think i see some squiggly lines, or perhaps i'm just seeing things, lol.
either way, it's an excellent catch!

[Dimasalang]

Blade vendors in the Philippines Ca.1913 selling what look to be similar knives.

[Indianajones]

Hi Detlef,
also congrats with this nice piece. Though -I know you always like to etch everything, but this piece has such a lovely old patine! If you etch it that will be gone forever! :shrug:
Ofcourse its your piece but 'in the name of all nice 19th cent. blades' hope you'l think twice before dipping it into hot acid/vinegar.

Seems like your getting a quite nice Moluc/Philippine collection together! Interesting (unique?) combination!
Greets

[Sajen]

Hi Detlef,
also congrats with this nice piece. Though -I know you always like to etch everything, but this piece has such a lovely old patine! If you etch it that will be gone forever! :shrug:
Ofcourse its your piece but 'in the name of all nice 19th cent. blades' hope you'l think twice before dipping it into hot acid/vinegar.

Seems like your getting a quite nice Moluc/Philippine collection together! Interesting (unique?) combination!
Greets


Hi Wouter,

like usual I will first have a look if I can see any traces of a lamination before I will etch it.

It is not only a Moluccas/Philippine collection but a Indonesian/Philippine collection! :) ;)

Greets,

Detlef

[Robert]

Hello Detlef,
Normally I stay out of the etch don't etch controversy but on this I have to say please don't etch this piece. After you receive it I believe you will find that it probably has an inserted edge. Etching will bring this out but it will destroy the patina and IMHO all of the character it has developed over the long years since it was made.

Robert

[Indianajones]

Oke, yes sorry I could not NOT leave a comment on the etching as . . . .you might have guessed I also love this piece; such a jewel in nice condition! But who am I to tell you?!
To my opinion the hande would not have had a wire encircling also, as some do indeed. Put me on your list of 'wanna have that' pls :D
Even wider; Indonesia Philippines; like a North-South axis. Though interesting as there are a lot of comons/cultural links between Luzon and Moluccas and the Indonesian islands underneath (Timor etc)I now and than noticed.

[Spunjer]

oops, looks like i started something... didn't mean to put you in a predicament, detlef! by all means, it''s your choice. wouter and robert had excellent points as well. :)

[Sajen]

Don't worry friends, I will handle it very carefully! :D :D ;)

[Sajen]

Have received it already longer. There is no evidence that there ever have been wire around the handle. After some aid the leather scabbard look very nice again, the white at the backside was relics of an old paper lable but nothing to read anymore. I have decided to let the blade patinated, I only have cleaned it carefully with WD 40. Here some additional pictures. Is it possible that the blade was made from a file? This is the second piece from the Philippines where I found this marks on the blade.

Regards,

Detlef

[Lew]

Detlef

Yours probably never had a wire wrap. Below is a tabak in my collection as you can see the holes were the wire wrap was attached.

[Rick]

Oh yes, made from a file . :)
What I really like about this example is the scabbard embossing .
I find it to be a bit out of the ordinary and quite nice !

Congratulations on this one Detlef .

Lew, that is a very interesting motto on your blade, "Philippino War Knife" :confused:
D'you suppose that was added after the fact to your excellent example ?

The piece is absolutely correct, but "Krieg " ?? :confused:

Or does it say "Knife" ? :confused:

[Lew]

Actually Rick the 31st was stationed in the Philippines in 1918 and the initials are from the sellers great uncle who was stationed in the Philippines in 1918. I've been in contact with the curator at Fort Drum and he said he would love to have it for the war museum. Of course someone must have polished the blade at one point :shrug:.

http://www.drum.army.mil/AboutFortDrum/Pages/FortDrumMuseum_lv2.aspx

Btw it's knife

[VANDOO]

SEVERAL GREAT EXAMPLES SHOWN HERE NOT THE ONES WITH FANCY INLAYED BLADES OR CARVED HANDLES WITH SILVER BUT THE LEATHER SHEATHS ARE FIRST QUALITY ON SOME AND ALL ARE GOOD WORKING EXAMPLES.
THIS MAKES ME WONDER IF THIS DEGREE OF LEATHER WORK ORIGINATED WITH THE SPANISH PRESENCE WHO NO DOUBT COULD HAVE TAUGHT THE CRAFT TO LOCAL PHILIPINOS. THE WORKMANSHIP LOOKS SIMULAR TO SOME SPANISH WORK AND I THINK LEATHER WAS MORE IN USE IN SPAIN THAN IN THE PHILIPPINES. JUST CONJECTURE BUT IT SEEMS POSSIBLE TO ME AS WOOD SCABBARDS WOULD GENERALLY HOLD UP BETTER IN A DAMP CLIMATE AND BE EASILY AVAILABLE WHERE A LEATHER INDUSTRY MAY HAVE NOT DEVELOPED TO A LARGE EXTENT AS A RESULT. ALSO A LOT LESS CATTLE IN THE PHILIPPINES. :shrug:

[Lew]

Maybe water buffalo leather?

[Lew]

This is another style of bolo from Pampanga the tip was broken off but still from the same period.

[Sajen]

Detlef

Yours probably never had a wire wrap. Below is a tabak in my collection as you can see the holes were the wire wrap was attached.


Hello Lew,

I think so since I can't see such holes in the handle from mine. Very nice example you have there! :)

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Oh yes, made from a file . :)
What I really like about this example is the scabbard embossing .
I find it to be a bit out of the ordinary and quite nice !

Congratulations on this one Detlef .


Thank you Rick, yes the embossing is very nice and after the maintenance it look now much better as before.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

SEVERAL GREAT EXAMPLES SHOWN HERE NOT THE ONES WITH FANCY INLAYED BLADES OR CARVED HANDLES WITH SILVER BUT THE LEATHER SHEATHS ARE FIRST QUALITY ON SOME AND ALL ARE GOOD WORKING EXAMPLES.



Agree! :) ;)

[Sajen]

Maybe water buffalo leather?

Most probable yes!

[Indianajones]

Hello, Vandoo has actually a very good remark that I also never thought about before; that the leather sheats are (sort of) introduced by the Spanish. Personally I dont think the leather used is from the native carabao/waterbuffalo as am really not sure if the filipinos knew how to make leather from hide (intricate proces).
Than I guess the file would also be of Spanish origins?!
This Tabak would date before the resistance against the Spanish I reckon. As most examples after (katipunan) would have a handle carved as a fist or an officershead (wright?).

Again, a real gem Sajen! Who wouldnt want to own such a piece!? :)

[Lew]

Philippinos didn't know how to process leather? They have been forging some of the finest blades for two hundred years or more. This takes a lot of skill understanding complex heat treatments and welding skills and to say that they didn't have the skills processing leather for scabbards is ridiculous.

[VANDOO]

WHY KILL A SCARCE COMODITY LIKE A WATER BUFFALOW WHICH IS NECESSARY FOR HAULING CARTS, WORKING RICE PADDYS ECT TO MAKE LEATHER.? CARABO WERE SOMETIMES SACRIFICED FOR SPECIAL OCCASIONS BUT TO MY KNOWLEGE WERE NOT A COMMON OR PLENTIFUL FOOD SOURCE BEFORE THE SPANISH CAME. WOOD SCABBARDS ARE WIDESPREAD, CLOTHES ARE NOT MADE OF LEATHER IN THE PHILIPPINES SO PERHAPS TANNING GOOD LEATHER WAS NOT DEVELOPED AS IT DID NOT SERVE A NEED IN THE AREA. :shrug:
THE SPANISH ON THE OTHER HAVE MADE LEATHER FOR A LONG TIME IN THEIR HISTORY. CATTLE HAVE SERVED THE PURPOSE OF A MAIN FOOD SOURCE, SO HIDES WERE READILY AVAILABLE. THE CLIMATE IN SPAIN IS MUCH BETTER FOR LEATHER PRODUCTS WHICH GO BACK AT LEAST TO ROMAN TIMES. THE PHILIPPINES WERE NOT EXPOSED TO ROME BUT CERTIANLY TO SPAIN WHO ARE A LIKELY SOURCE FOR LEATHER WHICH WOULD THEN HAVE BEEN ADAPTED BY THE PHILIPPINOS WORKING FOR THEM. JUST MY THOUGHTS AND LOGIC STRANGE THOUGH IT MAY BE :rolleyes:
THE OTHER POSSIBLE CULTURAL SOURCE FOR LEATHER WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MOORISH EMPIRE WHICH PRODUCED GOOD LEATHER AND HAD ARMOR WHICH LIKELY INCORPORATED SOME LEATHER PARTS AS DID THE SPANISH ARMOR. SO PERHAPS LEATHER WAS INTRODUCED BY THE MOORS IN MINDANAO AND LATER BY THE SPANISH IN LUZON?
I SUSPECT MOST NATIVE PHILIPPINOS CONTINUED TO MAKE WOOD SCABBARDS AND HAD LITTLE USE FOR LEATHER EXCEPT FOR SOME OF THE POORLY CURED HIDES WITH HAIR ON THEM FOUND ON SOME ARTEFACTS IN THE PHILIPPINES.
GADDS!! I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE STARTED ANOTHER POST FOR THIS. PERHAPS A MODERATOR WOULD LIKE TO MOVE THIS AND START A SEPARATE DISCUSSION POST. :shrug:

[Battara]

In the north and middle, especially on the island of Luzon, Spanish influence was strong for over 400 years. Leather work was brought over early and Filipinos have a long history of leather working up to the present day.

[Indianajones]

To come back to the piece; how about dating the Tabak? I would place it as early as 1830.

Leather; I have been in the Phil. many times and have collected and studied mostly Northern Phil. for a long time and actually dont know of any leather made in the Philippines. Most 'beef' products besides horn is mostly imported to my knowledge. And to make the cows'hide soft it would need to be worked with soft acid; this proces is -as far as I know- not (much?) done in the Philippines. Although indeed quite some carabau's are slaughtered (in the past) I got no idea what happened to the hides; in 'igorot country I do not know of one leatherproduct (besides Ilongot packpack).
>Battara; what sort of products (of leather) do you know of? (I could be overlooking something :o ). Also with the very moist climate its really not 'functionable' to use leather overthere.

Ironworking; actually I also am of the opinion that ironworking (melting etc) has been done mostly after 1800 in the Philippines. Ofcourse this thesis needs a lot of research and prove. My personal knowledge (and research) did not cover so much of South Philippines, have to say. But thats why I post it here. I do not know of many pieces that date BEFORE 1800. I believe the ironsmithing in the Philippines has origins in mostly India and perhaps China.

Coming back to Sajens' Tabak; this is why also perhaps one used files to temper them into knifes.(?!)

[Sajen]

Hello all,

that the sheath is from Carabao hide was my guess because the information I get once in this thread, post #4: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11239. The leather is thick but could be as well from a cow.

About the knowledge how to make leather from hide: I know that in Indonesia/Java it was usual to wrap pedang sheaths with leather. Since there are so many leather sheaths in the Philippines, special Luzon, I don't think that this is imported leather. Who bring the technic to the Philippines I don't know.

About ironworking/-forging: I think that this technic coming from Indonesia since the kris most proable also coming to the South of the Philippines from Indonesia.

All this are only my thoughts and are of course unprofed.

Regards,

Detlef