Period Photos of People with Ethnographic Arms

[estcrh]

Would this particular type of musket be called a Moroccan afedali snaphaunce lock musket? I originally had it as a kabyle (moukhala) musket.

[RobertGuy]

Just noticed the ...bipod? in use here.I'm not a collecter of muskets and no little about them but how common were such attachments? I had somehow always thought of them as a modern development for automatic weapons. :confused:

[estcrh]

Just noticed the ...bipod? in use here.I'm not a collecter of muskets and no little about them but how common were such attachments? I had somehow always thought of them as a modern development for automatic weapons. :confused:

I have seen bipods on Tibetan and Afghan long guns and on one Persian example.

The Afghan Joozaeel or Mountain Rifle.
On Stone by J.Bennett. T. Black, Lith Cal. 1840.
Lithograph, rare. Sheet 115 x 205mm, 4½ x 8¼". Narrow margins.
A very unusual illustration of a jezail, with the distinctively curved stock and a bipod. It has been suggested that the jezail was originally designed to be held like a pistol with the stock under the arm, allowing use on horseback. However during the First Anglo-Afghan War (1839-42) it came into its own as a sniper weapon, fired down from high cliffs down onto the British Army retreating from Kabul to Jalalabad. Being heavier and longer-barrelled than the British Brown Bess musket, the Jezail outmatched the return fire. Most were hand-made: only a few were rifled.

[estcrh]

Indian Kuttuk horseman in armour, 1861?. The Khuttuk clans inhabit a tract of hilly country lying south and south-west of Kohat, and including spurs of the great Sooliman range from Dullun, on the Upper Koorum river, to Kooshalgurh, on the Indus, and from the Bungush valley of Kohat to the Wuzeeree lands in Bunnoo. He is holding a matchlock musket, and wearing a helmet covered in cloth, a tulwar sword, arm guards (dastana) and hauberk (zirah).

[estcrh]

Kazakh warrior wearing a helmet with mail aventail and mail hauberk, he is holding an axe, a matchlock with bipod and huge composite bow are in the backround. The Kazakh Khanate was a Turkic Kazakh state, the successor of the Golden Horde, existing from 1456–1847, located roughly on the territory of the present-day Republic of Kazakhstan. At its height the khanate ruled from eastern Cumania (modern-day West Kazakhstan) to most of Uzbekistan, Karakalpakstan and the Syr Darya river.

[estcrh]

Karbadian warrior, North Caucasus mountains, in armour, wearing a helmet and hauberk, with kindjal dagger and shashka sword, holding a whip in his hand, circa 1890's. Kabardians are the largest Circassian (Adyghe) tribe in Russia (over 600,000), Turkey, Egypt, and some other countries in the region, except for Israel and Jordan, where the Shapsug and Abzakh tribe are the largest tribes, respectively. The Kabardian tribe are also the largest Circassian branch in the world in general.

[kahnjar1]

Would this particular type of musket be called a Moroccan afedali snaphaunce lock musket? I originally had it as a kabyle (moukhala) musket.
Mukahla (Snaphaunce lock). Taroudant Region, Oued Sous Valley, Morocco.
Stu

[kronckew]

estcrh, the Kazakh's axe above looks rather odd, almost like there is a knife blade mounted from the head along the haft. after zooming in, it looks like it may be part of a suspension strap of some sort. still a bit confusing tho. is it something else behind him obscured by the axe? found the framed image that shows a similar axe with a similar anomaly. anyone have a similar axe or photo of one?

[estcrh]

Mukahla (Snaphaunce lock). Taroudant Region, Oued Sous Valley, Morocco.
Stu
Stu, I see some very similar guns being described as "afedali", I am not very familiar with the terms used with North African guns, maybe someone can explain what makes a gun an "afedali". I have read that "afedali" is a Moroccan Moukhala from the Taroudant area and the Souss wadi bassin.

[estcrh]

estcrh, the Kazakh's axe above looks rather odd, almost like there is a knife blade mounted from the head along the haft. after zooming in, it looks like it may be part of a suspension strap of some sort. still a bit confusing tho. is it something else behind him obscured by the axe?I also noticed it. I think it is a knife, there appears to be an attachment point near the middle. I also see some sort of suspension strap, which makes sense since you could not wrap your hand around the upper part of the shaft due to the knife blade being mounted there.

Take a look at how long this axe is. I found one image of some axes supposedly from the same region.

Axes, photo from the expedition. Dudina, North-East Kazakhstan, 1899.

[kronckew]

i've added a photo of a khazak with a similar odd axe to my earlier post...

a sharp axe & knife flopping about my person, even armoured, would not be my idea of safety. hopefully they had some sort of sheathing device to make it safe. a number of my axes have a languet on the front of the haft to protect it from impacts. could this be a similar device?

[estcrh]

i've added a photo of a khazak with a similar odd axe to my earlier post...

a sharp axe & knife flopping about my person, even armoured, would not be my idea of safety. hopefully they had some sort of sheathing device to make it safe. a number of my axes have a languet on the front of the haft to protect it from impacts. could this be a similar device?



I have never seen another axe like it. I guess we are very lucky to have this one photograph even. Here is a link to a Khazak museum with some info and a few images that are to small to post here. http://old.unesco.kz/heritagenet/kz/hn-english/csmrk/engl/voorug_en.htm

Also a reproduction Khazak armor made for a Khazak museum, and a copy of the illustration you posted which has a very Persian look to it.


Kazakh batyr in mirror armour, 17th-18th century.

[Kubur]

Stu, I see some very similar guns being described as "afedali", I am not very familiar with the terms used with North African guns, maybe someone can explain what makes a gun an "afedali". I have read that "afedali" is a Moroccan Moukhala from the Taroudant area and the Souss wadi bassin.

Well to me it's a Tetouan type from the Riff.

Like this one...

[estcrh]

Well to me it's a Tetouan type from the Riff.

Like this one...


The barrel and the barrel are strongly bonded together by a broad band of iron about 8 cm. This fitting is found on all the rifles of the south of Morocco (AFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT) and not on the Mokhala of TETOUAN.

[kahnjar1]

The barrel and the barrel are strongly bonded together by a broad band of iron about 8 cm. This fitting is found on all the rifles of the south of Morocco (AFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT) and not on the Mokhala of TETOUAN.
Hi Estcrh,
The Term AFFEDALI as I understand it relates more to the to the shape of the stock which in turn relates to the particular region from which they originate. If you have Tirri's book, check out pages 20 to 22 and you will see the differing stock shapes, each given a particular name......TETUAN, AFFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT, and region from which they are found.
Stu

[estcrh]

Hi Estcrh,
The Term AFFEDALI as I understand it relates more to the to the shape of the stock which in turn relates to the particular region from which they originate. If you have Tirri's book, check out pages 20 to 22 and you will see the differing stock shapes, each given a particular name......TETUAN, AFFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT, and region from which they are found.
StuStu, I do not have Tirri's book, but according to the website, an "Affendali" would have "the barrel and the barrel are strongly bonded together by a broad band of iron about 8 cm. This fitting is found on all the rifles of the south of Morocco (AFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT) and not on the Mokhala of TETOUAN", which is backed up by images of the various types.....so which is right??? The website implys that it is more then just the stock shapes that determines the name.

[kahnjar1]

Stu, I do not have Tirri's book, but according to the website, an "Affendali" would have "the barrel and the barrel are strongly bonded together by a broad band of iron about 8 cm. This fitting is found on all the rifles of the south of Morocco (AFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT) and not on the Mokhala of TETOUAN", which is backed up by images of the various types.....so which is right??? The website implys that it is more then just the stock shapes that determines the name.
Despite the different names shown above, the broad band "system" looks to me no different over the various types. The purpose would be the same.....to give strength to the barrel attachment to the stock. I have a Mukahla from the Taroudant Region, and it also has that wide band, though on mine it is copper/brass and not iron.
As an aside the Algerian guns shown, I would call Kabyle and not Mukahla.
Pics of my 2 guns attached.....Mukahla and Kabyle.
Stu

[estcrh]

Despite the different names shown above, the broad band "system" looks to me no different over the various types. The purpose would be the same.....to give strength to the barrel attachment to the stock. I have a Mukahla from the Taroudant Region, and it also has that wide band, though on mine it is copper/brass and not iron.
As an aside the Algerian guns shown, I would call Kabyle and not Mukahla.
Pics of my 2 guns attached.....Mukahla and Kabyle.
Stu

Nice examples, they seem to fit the descriptions of the website.....maybe these similar types from the same region are all "mukahla / moukhala"?

[Kubur]

I have seen bipods on Tibetan and Afghan long guns and on one Persian example.


Bipods or rifle stands are very common in Northern India.
My feeling is that is a Far-Eastern influence, probably from China.

[Kubur]

Nice examples, they seem to fit the descriptions of the website.....maybe these similar types from the same region are all "mukahla / moukhala"?

Yes mukhala is a generic French colonial term.
They are all moukhala.

[estcrh]

Georgian warriors, the illustration is from "Savage Svânetia "volume 2, by Clive Phillips-Wolley, 1883.

[kronckew]

Georgian warriors, the illustration is from "Savage Svânetia "volume 2, by Clive Phillips-Wolley, 1883.
mr lesghia looks a bit under armed, needs a few more assorted weapons about his person. ;) (looks a bit like it was posed & he was loaded down to illustrate the range of arms available. and they add more in the middle pic! he can't be comfortable. how the heck can he draw that sword....)

[estcrh]

Afghan with choora dagger.

[estcrh]

Circassians wearing armor.

[Uncle Bertie]

What a fascinating thread, thanks to all who have shared their photos.

[CharlesS]

Shown as "Moros", this old postcard seems to include some Bagobos as well.

[ariel]

....he can't be comfortable. how the heck can he draw that sword....)

This is a very interesting sword. We do not know its original name, but are just using "Kabiani Khmali": sword with a skirt ( see the scabbard), supposedly indigenous to Svanetia and Imeretia. This is the earliest known example of a guard-less Caucasian sword, likely one of a predecessors of shashka. Its handle was strongly angled toward the edge, just a tad short of a pistol grip. One possibility of such a construction is its potential use as both a stabbing and a slashing weapon. Also see the famous sword of Charles the Great.

One can read a paper by Bakradze and Kiziria here:

http://historical-weapons.com/wp-content/uploads/Bakradze-Kiziria.pdf

The kindjal of the other warrior is also interesting: its pommel is square, reminiscing classical Gurian examples.

[grendolino]

One of the photos made by His Royal Highness Maharaja Ram Singh in his court in Jaipur in 1860

[kamachate]

Hi all... Here I attached 5 images, first three showing Circassian soldiers at İstanbul. The arms and clothing of the Circassians were well known in the Ottoman Empire. Çerkes Kaması (Circassian Qama) and Çerkes Kılıcı (Circassian Saber) were famous enough to have part in the folk tales or ballads.
The last two are interesting: We see Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, founder of modern Turkey, during Turco-Italian War, or Tripolitanian War, in 1911-12, wearing a shashka. The very last one is from 1922, showing the high command of the Turkish forces just before the end of the Greek-Turkish War. An officer, possibly from Circassian origin, wearing a kindjal and shashka.

Seems that shashka was already known and famous in the eastern world, before it re-gained its fame as "Cossack shashka" :D

[jagabuwana]

Two kids practicing pencak silat. The page I found this from was from my reading about Silat Cikalong from Jawa Barat, but I'm unsure if it's related to the Cikalong style.

I have noticed another discussion on this forum about the usage of keris in Indonesian martial arts and whether there were any styles that had techniques for keris weilding. This could be one example. In my personal exposure with silat / maenpo Cikalong I did not learn or observe any keris techniques, but have seen golok techniques with emphases on slashing and parrying.

[Drabant1701]

Here are some handcolored miniature (6x9cm) photos by Wilhelm Hammeschmidt, ca 1865, that came with a larger collection of photos that I bought. Originally they where CDV cards but has been trimmed and mounted several on a bigger piece of cardboard. Not to detailed, but maybe you have not seen them before.

[colin henshaw]

Picked up this old photo recently, (Bagobo, Mindanao ?). Maybe studio posed, but shows the shield and spear well. 1920s ?

[Mercenary]

The fighting ascetics. Rajasthan, 1900.

[fernando]

In July 1939 the Portuguese president visited the Limpopo valley, in the (then) colony of Mozambique.
40 000 natives (Rongas/Vatuas) attented the cerimony and 30 000 of them simulated war dances (Batuque), assaults (Impi) and fights.


.

[Ren Ren]

Gaddang people. Northern Luzon, Philippines.

[grendolino]

Few pictures from Roman Catholic Church in Madaba, Jordan.
First decade of 20th century when Madaba was reestablished.
Note Martini-Henry and some Shibriyas - specially this with studded handle surprised me. As well as the typical Bedu outfit in tribe which is said to be catholic.

[Martin Lubojacky]

Single portraits: The youngest one is young Ras Tafari Mekonnen (emperor Haile Selassie I), the sitting injured is Ras Besabe (son of king of Gojam),the old man standing in the field with spear is Ras Nasibu, the well looking sitting guy is Dejazmach Gebre Michael

[Martin Lubojacky]

Ras Nassibu (picture dropped out from previous post)

[fernando]

Bushmen warriors of the Zulu tribe, with Brits and Afrikaners in a second plan (1879).

.

[fernando]

Mozambique warriors (1895).

.

[Martin Lubojacky]

The shield used to be attributed to Oromo people (which is a little bit rough allocation - there were many Oromo clans using different shields)

[Martin Lubojacky]

The picture with a group of people is from Bära village in Sidama, 1954-1955

Both pictures are from the book by Pascal Joannes "Private Collection of Ethiopian Art - Tribute to Tekalegn Besega"

(Teka was one of Ethiopian collectors, he, unfortunately, died a few years ago)

[Ren Ren]

Tribal warriors. Vietnam, 1950-60.

[Kubur]

Pics from Sudan

[David]

This thread has been around for some time, but i had not realized that i have apparently fallen down on my responsibility to make sure it had a fair representation of the peoples of keris cultures. My bad! I will now attempt to redeem myself. LOL!

[David]

More Indonesia, from Bali.

[David]

Jawa, Sumbawa, Celebes, Minangkabau....

[David]

Jawa, Lombok, Bali. Sumbawa, etc.

[David]

Bali and Jawa...

[David]

Sumatra...

[David]

Here and there....

[David]

Sulawesi, Jawa, Bali and more...

[fernando]

Pity there were no photographers in the 16th century, David; but there were painters and chroniclers to leave us images ... and history ;) .

By the way ...

It is admittable that, the Javanese features & attire as in the watercolor executed by a naive artist of the period, do not correspond as whole to reality but, the use and purpose of the keris is as precise as described by Tomé Pires (1465-1540) and Fernão Lopes de Castanheda (1500-1559)


.

[Yvain]

I was searching cameroonese pictures for something completely different, but I thought those might still be interesting.

-"Kirdi musician", dagger, Far North Cameroon - Mayo-Sava - Mora, 1931 - 1933 (http://www.quaibranly.fr/fr/explorer-les-collections/base/Work/action/show/notice/930553-musicien-kirdi/page/25/)



-"Funerals of Muktele man", dagger, Far North Cameroon - Mandara, 1968 (http://www.quaibranly.fr/fr/explorer-les-collections/base/Work/action/show/notice/961483-funerailles-dun-homme-muktele/page/11/)



-"Ironmonger stall", newly made daggers, Far North Cameroon - Mayo Sava - Mayo Plata, november 1982 (http://www.quaibranly.fr/fr/explorer-les-collections/base/Work/action/show/notice/963641-etal-de-quincailler/page/44/)

[Mercenary]

Odisha. 1920s. Head teacher :)

[kronckew]

Must be a rough school if he carries a talwar...

[cyten]

Ossetian man equipped with Miquelet rifle, Shashka, LARGEST Kindjal I've ever seen, and holstered pistol

[cyten]

Caucasian Crimean War Veterans with the usual Kindjal & Miquelet as well as M1843 Luttich Carbine and what looks like some kind of Artillery Foot Sword

[kronckew]

Ossetian man equipped with Miquelet rifle, Shashka, LARGEST Kindjal I've ever seen, and holstered pistol

Always thought they were the descendants of the Gladius, that one is more like a spatha :D

[cyten]

Bulgarian man with shishane and yataghan

[Tim Simmons]

Wayana. Kalina.

[gp]

enclosed some pictures from Magrebi warriors and soldiers.

[kahnjar1]

A few more.........including a couple of the local attempt at a Space Program
:mad: :eek: :eek:
Stu

[francantolin]

A few more.........including a couple of the local attempt at a Space Program
:mad: :eek: :eek:
Stu


Thank you for sharing these pictures !!!

I wonder why this man is so angry with his carpet ? ;) :)

[gp]

he's not a Magrebian but from the Levant. But I shall post some more pics from Magreb warriors ans soldiers, both Arab and Amazigh ;)

[gp]

as promised, pictures between 1900-1940 ( most around 1920) of soldiers of the Sultan but also tribesmen from the North and South who were battling the Sultan's forces as well as the French ( "tiens, voilà du boudin..." ) and Spanish who all didn't always enjoy their stay at the territory of these men ( Morocco as we know it now with its present borders, is a very young ...) and meeting these gents uninvited was no pleasure at all to say the least. The Romans already found that out very quickly...

Especially the Riffians were severe opponents not to mess with ; over 20 tribes of which the Aith Waryagher (Aith Ouariaghel) from the Nort-East Morocco and North-West Algeria were very fierce fighters. Supposedly their name means "those who do not retreat "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rif_War

[gp]

a few more

[gp]

still some 2 come...

[gp]

the last batch for now :)

[cyten]

Greek with Shishane & Yataghan
Armenian with Coral studded Pala

[dat_man]

Here are some photos from the caucasus

1- ossetians
2- circassian with pretty large kindjal and a shashka
3- men from daghistan
4- daghistani man with wife and son, he got a nice kindjal too
5- chechens

[Ren Ren]

Central Vietnam, presumably Darlak plateau

[gp]

next to the above pics from my Magrebian collection, a few from the most bravest and fiercest warriors : the Ait Waryaghar of the Moroccan Rif who massacred the Spanish army in the Rif and also made the French pay a very heavy price in 3 wars.

[cyten]

Khevsur with miquelet, saber and chainmail

[kronckew]

Khevsur with miquelet, saber and chainmail


...and a nice small buckler!


Excellent photo!

[dat_man]

Khevsur with miquelet, saber and chainmail

There are many problems with this photo:

1- the so called "four mirrors" armour over the mail which wasn't used by khevsur as far as we are aware

2- the saber Eastern georgian not khevsur

3-the the man is georgian but not not khevsur, he is a collector from from the soviet era here is an article about him:
https://museum.ge/index.php?lang_id=ENG&sec_id=71&info_id=15740

Never the less it is a nice photo and shows some nice original weapons, but not a proper representation of khevsurs

[ariel]

There is one staged photo after another, in the one above there are multiple ethnic inconsistencies, the two pics of Ossetian men on this page seem to be wearing the same kindjal.
And there is even one picture from Odisha ( Orissa), but.... no khanjarli.

Studio photographs were heavily staged, and their validity as reflecting reality is severely compromised.

[Ian]

dat_man,

Thanks for your information about that "fake" photo.


Ariel,

These photos are what they are. I think we are all aware of some of the limitations of studio portraits. It's good to be reminded from time to time. Let's move on ...

[cyten]

the man is georgian but not not khevsur, he is a collector from from the soviet era here is an article about him:
https://museum.ge/index.php?lang_id=ENG&sec_id=71&info_id=15740

very interesting, thanks for the article

[Ren Ren]

Probably Annam.
It's a shame that the background is retouched.

[kronckew]

Does look photoshopped. The guy on the right doesn't seem too happy about it either. Interesting swords, rather large...


Cool photo tho. 👍

[Ren Ren]

In Vietnamese they are called trường gươm 長劔, which means "long sword" or "long saber". By the time photography appeared, it was already an exclusively ceremonial weapon. In temples and shrines, it was often kept in the form of wooden models covered with multi-colored varnish.
Oval wicker shields are even more interesting and rare in my opinion.

[dat_man]

Few photos where you can see omani zanzibari nimcha

[TVV]

Thank you for these images dat_man. The big photo on the bottom is especially intriguing. It depicts a man of high status with a nice shamshir seated on a fancy chair/throne. The people on his sides have nimcha hilted swords, and the two closest ones appear to have the ivory and gold hilt variety. It is similar to a photo in Hales showing a Comoros vizier with a shamshir and his bodyguards with nimchas. Pradines has a theory that the shamshir in East Africa was a status symbol, reserved only for very high ranking people.

The second row of standing men gets more eclectic when it comes to sidearms with a long saif, a crude shamshir hilted sword and a Western style sabre.

[SanibelSwassa]

Just few additional examples from the archives of Moro peoples with their traditional weapons. Enjoy!

[Martin Lubojacky]

Photo by Alexandre Marchand (from the book "African Train"),
around Dire Dawa (Ethiopia) 1911 – 1913

[kino]

Kampilan bearer of Dato Mastura, Cotabato. Peabody Museum.

[ausjulius]

Dha Myaung sword, Burma
Source: http://bit.ly/HzDqpd

not burma.. its taiwanese aborigines..

[Norman McCormick]

Mongolian Archers first half 20thC.

[Rich]

Neat. Bet those guys could shot the eye out a bug from 70 yards.
Curious, what's the sword the guy on the right in the first pic is carrying?

[cyten]

216908

Men from Trabzon armed with Yataghans, ball butt flintlock pistols, Shishane with strange shoulder holsters, and Russian Berdan No.1

[cyten]

Shishane, Boyliya, Caucasian Blades

[gp]

Lavian Riflemen, AKA "strelniki"

Part of the Russian Imperial Army, in WW I about 30.000 men around 1917
Some later joined the Bolshevik revolution and hence its army
The majority remained in Latvia to protect the country due to an internal strugle and instability,
caused by 3 governments fighting for control ( German, Sovjet and Latvian) untill Latvia's independance 1920/22

[mahratt]

Hunters from kishlak (village) of Pai-Mazar. Central Asia. Tajikistan (Tajik SSR). 1932. (Hunters have old matchlock guns).

[SidJ]

Warlpiri family, Australia, 1920s. I love this image. The physique of that warrior is impressive.

[cyten]

Albanian with Turkish Shishane

[gp]

Bosnian gent around 1890-1900

[gp]

a few more postcards dated 1910-1920

[gp]

another Bosnian man and a print from a monthly paper showing the Bosnisch-Herzegowinsche Infanterie Regiment marching in a Bosnian town ( either Mostar or Sarajevo)

[mahratt]

Officers Turkmen (Tekin) cavalry regiment (subdivision army Russian Empire) with traditional Turkmen weapons: shamshirs and kards

[gp]

Officers Turkmen (Tekin) cavalry regiment (subdivision army Russian Empire) with traditional Turkmen weapons: shamshirs and kards

this kard looks beautiful to me , more than interesting ;
what kind of kard would it be? from which country / origin ?

[mahratt]

this kard looks beautiful to me , more than interesting ;
what kind of kard would it be? from which country / origin ?


This is a Turkmen Kard knife from Central Asia. Turkmen tribes lived in the 19th - early 20th centuries on the territory and on the border of the Khiva Khanate.

[gp]

Thank you very much for adding the picture ; these look amazing !☼

Hope to own one of these someday .....:)

would these kards perhaps be the same as the one by Islam Khodja or would his be another / different one ?

[gp]

Aga aus Sarajevo im Waffenschmuck:
as displayed in the Landesmuseum, Sarajevo, circa 1899.
Source: Historical Archive of Sarajevo, Photograph Archive, Inv. No. 1276

Dignitaries in Sarajevo, circa 1898. Note the weapons inserted in the sash
of the standing nobelman (back row, on the right).
Source: Historical Archive of Sarajevo, Photograph Archive, Inv. No. 1329.

[gp]

some more Caucassian pics

[Tatyana Dianova]

The first picture is not from Caucasus, but from Ukraine.
It is signed:
"Yuhym Bozhko, Otaman of the second infantry division of the Zaporozhian Sich, Year 1919"
Otaman is a military commander of the Ukrainian Cossacks.
An interesting photo.

[Ren Ren]

This photo is especially interesting given the fact that the Zaporozhian Sich was liquidated in 1775.

[Will M]

Lavian Riflemen, AKA "strelniki"

Part of the Russian Imperial Army, in WW I about 30.000 men around 1917
Some later joined the Bolshevik revolution and hence its army
The majority remained in Latvia to protect the country due to an internal strugle and instability,
caused by 3 governments fighting for control ( German, Sovjet and Latvian) untill Latvia's independance 1920/22

That's a wonderful photo of Russian troops with the Winchester 1895 pattern musket in 7.62x54.

[gp]

Thank you both for the additional info. So 1775, perhaps he might have been also an inspiration for the character of Taras Bulba (like for instance Okhrim Makukha)

[gp]

…

[Tatyana Dianova]

Yuhym Bozhko has organized in 1918 the volunteer "Zaporozhian Sich" Division which became a part of the armee of the People’s Republic of Ukraine and was fighting with Russian Red Armee.

Russian link in Wiki:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BA%D0%BE,_%D0%95%D1%84%D0%B8 %D0%BC

Ukrainian link in Wiki:
https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BA%D0%BE_%D0%AE%D1%85%D0%B8% D0%BC

[gp]

interesting : a Scandinavian site mentions him in 1756 as a leader.
Gues 2 different men with the same name, centuries separate..:)

https://mewikisv.com/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%96%D0%B2

[gp]

a picture of an Austrian gent during WWI in 1915.
Remarkable to me is the weapon he is posing with:
a long Werndl bayonet .

You would expect a special knife ( like the Ottoman bichaq or Indonesian Kris) but a bayonet on a picture like this ? I never saw before. Even if it was a long one like this.

[gp]

and a few pics from different folks, yet in a region close to eachother; Albanian, Dalmatia, Herzegovina, Bosnia, Montenegro between 1860 -1910

[gp]

and not to make it a male dominated issue, hereby some women who we need to show some respect....

2 ladies from Armenia, 1895 during the 1895 Hamidian massacres, the Armenians of Zeitun (modern Süleymanlı), took up arms to defend themselves against the Ottomans

Next a lady from the Balkans ( Herzegowina around 1878)

followd by an Albanian lady from 1924 and a second Albanian lady with her spousse a little earlier ( most likely 1910-1920)

[gp]

an Armenian Gentleman , picture taken in 1908

[gp]

an Egyptian foto from around 1900

[mahratt]

Mullah Abdugafur Mirza Raim Khodjaev.
Volost administrator of the Namangan district, an administrative-territorial unit of the Fergana region of the Turkestan Governor-General. 1913.
With Bukhara shashka on the belt.

After the inclusion of Turkestan into the Russian Empire, the Russian government retained the existing system of self-government of the native people. It was based on the management of rural and urban quarter communities by elders. Among the Muslim population, such elders were called aksakals (oқsokol - literally "white beard" in Uzbek). Such a structure was close to that which existed in Russia, where from the 16th century elders were elected to manage small administrative-territorial units and public groups. Therefore, the Central Asian form of self-government turned out to be familiar to the Russian administration.
The population of Turkestan in each county was divided into volosts. The volost administrators were at the head of the volosts
The elections of the volost administrator were two-stage, first a village gathering was held, at which one elective was elected from 50 home ownership. Then the elected representatives of rural societies gathered at the volost congress, which was held in the presence of representatives of the Russian administration. As a rule, it was the county chief or his assistant, who observed the order, while not interfering in the course of the elections itself. The volost congress was considered invalid if it was attended by less than 2/3 of the total number of elected.
Police and administrative power was concentrated in the hands of the volost administrator. He was responsible for maintaining general order and tranquility.

[cyten]

Azerbaijanis

[David R]

a picture of an Austrian gent during WWI in 1915.
Remarkable to me is the weapon he is posing with:
a long Werndl bayonet .

You would expect a special knife ( like the Ottoman bichaq or Indonesian Kris) but a bayonet on a picture like this ? I never saw before. Even if it was a long one like this.

Could be a studio prop! I remember a weird story about Austro-Hungarian photos from this era, Travelling salesmen sold the country girls pics of their loved one in the army.. They had two images, with a moustache, and without but the girls accepted these as a true likeness.

[Ren Ren]

They had two images, with a moustache, and without but the girls accepted these as a true likeness.

Very nice detail! Thank you, David!

[gp]

although the nickname of the Moroccan Footbal Team is Lions of the Atlas, here some pictures of the real Lions who ruled the Atlas / Riff mountains some hundred years and more ago and were not to be messed with ...( as the Spanish can confirm)

[David]

I am surprised you created a new thread for these, and in the Miscellaneous Forum. Wouldn't these be better placed in THIS thread?
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15325

[gp]

I am surprised you created a new thread for these, and in the Miscellaneous Forum. Wouldn't these be better placed in THIS thread?
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15325

I am surpised none of the mods didn't mention it 21st June 2020, when I created it when I just became a member ...
and wasn't aware about all these threads...☼☼☼
reason to continue it was to have all my Moroccan pics in one place, but you can easily transfer it to the link; no problem!

Question: what do you think about the pics? do you like them ?

[David]

I am surpised none of the mods didn't mention it 21st June 2020, when I created it when I just became a member ...
and wasn't aware about all these threads...☼☼☼
reason to continue it was to have all my Moroccan pics in one place, but you can easily transfer it to the link; no problem!

Question: what do you think about the pics? do you like them ?
Yes, the photos are awesome. This thread could be merged with the other, but the Ethno Forum isn't my section. Maybe one of their Mods will think it is a good idea. Maybe not. Either way this thread seems to be focussed on the weapons so it probably does not belong in Miscellaneous at any rate. Not my call though. ;)

[fernando]

Threads merged ... as it makes sense :cool:.

[gp]

man from Mingrelia (now part of Georgia), early 1900

[fernando]

Bornu warriors ... undated.



.

[cyten]

Albanians from Iballja with Peabody-Martini and the boy with miquelet Zlatka pistol, 1905

[mahratt]

Afghans. Ishak Khan with his son, generals and adjutants. The photo was taken in Samarkand in the 1890s.

[shayde78]

.

[mahratt]

Russian officer with Caucasian dagger Bebut

[kronckew]

Looks like a shasqua on his left side.

[mahratt]

Looks like a shasqua on his left side.

Yes, of course you are right. You are very observant. Bravo. I did not focus on this, since the shashka is poorly visible.

[kronckew]

Yes, of course you are right. You are very observant. Bravo. I did not focus on this, since the shashka is poorly visible.
I noticed the suspension staple on the side of scabbard.

[gp]

I always have been fascinated by the old Silk route ( a nice book on that topic is by Peter Frankopan),
and specially the region from China to what was called in those days Turkestan ;
the region around Samarkand...
when I stumbled on a publication by Svetlana Gorshenina with these 2 nice pictures included.
Not my specialty so looking forward to contributions of members with knowledge.
I for sure like the dagger in the gent's belt ...!

[cyten]

Caucasian man and his Kindjal

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Plate from The Country of Balochistan by Albert William Hughes 1877.
Regards,
Norman.

[gp]

2 pics from Albanians, one from the Dibër / Dibra region 1904 and the other of the Skreli clan in 1890

[gp]

some called them brigands, others freedom fighters: they called themselves komitadzis

fierce men from Makedonia ( a region presently stretched over several countries, hence the geo-political sensetivity still till the present day)
who fought first the Ottomans and later any one threathening the freedom of their country.

Pictures dated between 1885 - 1920

[TVV]

some called them brigands, others freedom fighters: they called themselves komitadzis



Considering they have their native Bulgarian language on their flag, is it so hard to call them what they are?

[fernando]

Brazilian cangaceiros with their 1908 Mauser rifle and the famous deadly (bleeding) punhais (1920-30).


.

[gp]

Considering they have their native Bulgarian language on their flag, is it so hard to call them what they are?

it always was and still is a sensitive topic in the region, to put it diplomaticly.
As one recently noticed in the official name ( The Republic of North Macedonia (Macedonian: Северна Македонија, Severna Makedonija; formerly the Republic of Macedonia, also FYROM and FYR Macedonia) based upon Greek resistance or better sensitivities...
also during the last days of the Ottoman Empire, Balkan Wars of 1912/13 and "differences"of opinion between these Kzomitadzis and Bulgaria...
Not easy as they used the same cyrillic script and Makedonia as the Makenonians claim is now also still part of Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia and the former Yugoslav republic called Makedonia.

Refraining from (geo)politics, just going back to the picture:

it originates from The Sydney Mail 1903 - The Rebellion in Macedonia.

In August 1903 the Macedonians rose against Ottoman rule. The Turks brutally suppressed the uprising, after which there were countless attacks on the population.
By regular Ottoman troops, but also by irregular formations consisting of Albanians in the service of the Ottomans.

The Sydney Mail and New South Wales Advertiser reported on Wednesday, September 23, 1903, about "terrible excesses by Turkish troops, particularly the Albanians, in the vilayets of Bitola and Adrianople".

The Ottomans named an administrative district as a vilayet, which they in turn introduced as an occupier.


Austria and Russia have protested to Turkey against the horrible' excesses of Turkish troops, especially of Albanians, in the vilayets of Monastir and Adrianople. Some Albanians have been recalled, and sent to their homes.
A general insurrection has been proclaimed in that portion of the vilayet of Salonika eastwards of the River Vardajr.

The district has been subdivided into eight sections, a Bulgarian officer commanding each. Colonel Zontcheff is Commander-in-Chief of this body of insurgents.

Owing to the scarcity of officers the Sultan has promoted all sergeant-majors to be lieuteuants.

Diplomatists agree that indiscriminate condemnation of Turkey is unjustifiable. Both sides are guilty of atrocities.

The ' Standard ' says that a few British and French ships are keeping in touch with Salonika in the event of the Powers acting in concert.

Russia and Austria have returned unfavourable replies to the Bulgarian Note asking for the interference of the Powers.

The regicides completely rule King Peter of Servia, whose chief Minister threatens to reveal an incriminating letter whenever the King is refractory.

[TVV]

The rebellion was not just in Macedonia, but also in Eastern Thrace. Hence the atrocities in Bitola and Adrianople. If you look at a map and see what is between Bitola and Adrianople, the ethnicity of the insurgents should not be too hard to figure out. I still do not understand why it is so hard to call things with their real names.

[gp]

The rebellion was not just in Macedonia, but also in Eastern Thrace. Hence the atrocities in Bitola and Adrianople. If you look at a map and see what is between Bitola and Adrianople, the ethnicity of the insurgents should not be too hard to figure out. I still do not understand why it is so hard to call things with their real names.


Just wanted to post some pics of Makedonian Komitadzis with focus on their cold weapons and avoid a discussion about the sensitivity around it.

If you feel offended about 1 out of the 4 pics and my interpretation of a newspaper comment of 130 years ago mentioning the men as Makedonian Komitadzis, my sincere apologies as it was not my intention to upset your Bulgarian feelings…
Perhaps next a Greek person can object to the Saloniki picture as this is presently in Greece….
Should we really go down that road?

The comment on the newspaper originates from an Australian historical review, so not bias by any connection to the region.

I have got an inlaw who might differ from your opinion concerning the men on the picture as he is Makedonian, but I sincerly do want to refrain from going there…. as I personally witnessed in Sarajevo 1988- 1992 what “ calling things by there real name “ can result to…
Obviously neither disrespect nor offence intended and without accusing you of going down that road..
Let’s agree to focus & discuss the arms and not politics please. Thank you very much.

[TVV]

Just wanted to post some pics of Makedonian Komitadzis with focus on their cold weapons and avoid a discussion about the sensitivity around it.

If you feel offended about 1 out of the 4 pics and my interpretation of a newspaper comment of 130 years ago mentioning the men as Makedonian Komitadzis, my sincere apologies as it was not my intention to upset your Bulgarian feelings…
Perhaps next a Greek person can object to the Saloniki picture as this is presently in Greece….
Should we really go down that road?

The comment on the newspaper originates from an Australian historical review, so not bias by any connection to the region.

I have got an inlaw who might differ from your opinion concerning the men on the picture as he is Makedonian, but I sincerly do want to refrain from going there…. as I personally witnessed in Sarajevo 1988- 1992 what “ calling things by there real name “ can result to…
Obviously neither disrespect nor offence intended and without accusing you of going down that road..
Let’s agree to focus & discuss the arms and not politics please. Thank you very much.

What we collect here are not replicas, but historic weapons. The study of these weapons is meaningless when they are removed from their historic context, and that context most certainly includes the people who used the arms, and their motivation to take up arms in the first place.

The pictures you posted from the Ilinden Uprising are those of ВМОРО chetniks. The abbreviations stands for Вътрешна Македоно-Одринска Революционна Организация, which translates into Internal Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Organization. It was established by Bulgarians, its followers were overwhelmingly Bulgarian and after the failure of the uprising, they continued to support Bulgarian goals and interests, including the Bulgarian army through the Balkan Wars and WWI. These are historical facts, which contribute to the knowledge and study of the weapons on the pictures.

If we strive to attribute swords and daggers to particular tribes in Africa and South-East Asia, there should not be any sensitivity in pointing out the correct ethnicity of armed people in the Balkans either.

[gp]

What we collect here are not replicas, but historic weapons. The study of these weapons is meaningless when they are removed from their historic context, and that context most certainly includes the people who used the arms, and their motivation to take up arms in the first place.

The pictures you posted from the Ilinden Uprising are those of ВМОРО chetniks. The abbreviations stands for Вътрешна Македоно-Одринска Революционна Организация, which translates into Internal Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Organization. It was established by Bulgarians, its followers were overwhelmingly Bulgarian and after the failure of the uprising, they continued to support Bulgarian goals and interests, including the Bulgarian army through the Balkan Wars and WWI. These are historical facts, which contribute to the knowledge and study of the weapons on the pictures.

If we strive to attribute swords and daggers to particular tribes in Africa and South-East Asia, there should not be any sensitivity in pointing out the correct ethnicity of armed people in the Balkans either.

Thank you for your reply but this is what I wanted to avoid: the Bulgarian “claim” on everything relating to Macedonia or justification of the many “interpretations” between two “brothers” or if you like “cousins” in the region.

Being Bulgarian does not mean you are right, neither do I claim it to be: I am just a simply “cloggy” , i.e. Dutch with a connection to several Balkan countries ( Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia, Kosovo and Albania)
Nor do I want to start a polemic like Edith Durham and R. W. Seton-Watson had on Serbia and Albania.

Hence my request to the mods to delete the 3rd picture which is the source of TVV’s “firm” reaction.

Question to TVV: what type of weapons did they ( Bulgarians and Makedonians on the pictures) use and what is the difference between the weapons : if there's one ?

[TVV]

For that particular period of time, especially when it comes to the fighters in question, you can use the term Macedonians and Bulgarians interchangeably, since we are talking about the same people. While the weapon of choice was probably a Mannlicher carbine, the panoply included almost every imaginable system available in Europe at the time that they could get their hands on, though standard military patterns are outside the scope of this forum. When it comes to edged weapons, the kamas and yataghans that were used are virtually indistinguishable from those used throughout the Balkans, especially the Eastern Balkans in these times and the preceding century.

[gp]

and now for something completely different....


drawings of the Pandurs between 1742 -1760 ; in service of the Habsburg Empire in Hungary / Croatia ...the borderland and mostly know as Baron Franz von der Trenck's pandurs. not to be mistaken with his cousin Friedrich Freiherr von der Trenck. Although both lead a colorful life .

[gp]

some close up details; Pandurs and zhusars in battle

[mahratt]

Khassadars with choora daggers, Waziristan, 1920

[dat_man]

Bedouins with spears/ lances

[kronckew]

Camel corps of King abdul-Aziz, Head of the Saudis.


In 1902, the Saudi bedouins recapture the Masmak Fort in Riyadh, and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia was reborn after 3 years of further battles. They surprised the enemy garrison. As they charged the rapidly closing gate, a camel lancer hurled his spear at the gate, the blade stuck in the door, and snapped off. It is still there. They stormed the fort and captured it.



The Camel warriors, the gate, and the fort:

[gp]

some pics from albania between 1885-1910

[Teisani]

Wallachian haiduc (outlaw basically), Iancu Jianu 1788-1843.

[gp]

pictures of several gaucho's from Brazil, Uruguay and Argentina with their facón / knives ( between 25-50cm / approx. 10 - 20 in.)

[Rick]

Middle picture:
Looks like an old Iver Johnson top break revolver w/pearl grips on his belt.
Beautiful kit.

The three in the picture below him all look like they are carrying swords,.

[gp]

Middle picture:

The three in the picture below him all look like they are carrying swords,.

it actually is a caronero; a long knife used by the gauchos.
But it looks that indeed other weapons like swords might have been borrowed...

[gp]

article called "PROMENADE A TRAVERS LA PAMPA GAUCHO" a walk through the gaucho's pampa from 1881

and how it looked like

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JDDX_z7tT10

and a little info on these long ones:

http://esgrimacriolla.blogspot.com/2015/01/el-facon-caronero.html

[Ian]

gp,

I'm not sure those blades are very true to reality. They look more like folding knives, such as navaja, than facón or cuchillo. This could just as well be a Mediterranean scene, despite the legend to the drawing. Popular travelogues from the nineteenth century generally took a lot of license with what they presented, and often times the stories were written by people who had not ventured very far from Europe.

[fernando]

Amen.

[David R]

I am also very sceptical of the "ice-pick" grip of the blades, which is rare in real life and specialised for a power strike or finishing move. As I understand it Gaucho fought for prestige and to settle disputes usually with a poncho or blanket wrapped round the left arm as a protection.

[Turkoman.khan]

DUPRÉ, Louis (1789-1837). Voyage à Athènes et à Constantinople, ou Collection de portraits, de vues et de costumes grecs et ottomans, peints sur les lieux. Paris: Dondey-Dupré, 1825

Ralioundji. Military sailor attached to the Ottoman Admiralty

[fernando]

Excelent image :cool:.

[kronckew]

Kalioundji: He looks rather small in proportion to his weapons.:confused::confused:

[fernando]

Whatever ;).

[cyten]

Sharpening Kindjals in Ganja, Azerbaijan

[gp]

Man from Fèlibè / Plodiv around 1873
Man from Montenegro around 1900 / 1910
Man from Skafia Crete 1880/1900

[gp]

2 pics from the Georgian tribe of Hevrusians

[Rick]

Those must be drinking horns; I was a bit puzzled about their use initially.

[gp]

Those must be drinking horns; I was a bit puzzled about their use initially.

Yep and I can recommend Georgian wine: excellent wine indeed! ☼

[Turkoman.khan]

DUPRÉ, Louis (1789-1837). Voyage à Athènes et à Constantinople, ou Collection de portraits, de vues et de costumes grecs et ottomans, peints sur les lieux. Paris: Dondey-Dupré, 1825

A Greek raises his flag on the walls of Salona, on the day of Easter in the year 1821

[cyten]

Those must be drinking horns; I was a bit puzzled about their use initially.

They say it's so you cant set it down until you've finished your drink!

[cyten]

Kabardino-Balkaria 1913

Svaneti

Karachay-Cherkessia

[Pitt1999]

Adding some photos of Sardinian weapons being carried/worn. These are mostly photos of people wearing the iconic Sardinian leppa but a few are photos of people holding the unique Sardinian style of miquelet musket. Most of these I found on Pinterest, while some were found on Russian sites comparing Sardinian swords to Shashkas. I tried to find the highest quality versions of these photos that I could, but some of these photos are still a bit poor in that regard.

[Pitt1999]

More photos...

[AvtoGaz]

Armenians

[kino]

Mangyan tribe, Mindoro Philippines

[AvtoGaz]

The Armenian princes of Zeytun

[Turkoman.khan]

Turkmen delegation in St. Petersburg on the occasion of the anniversary of the inclusion of Merv into the Russian Empire. Photo taken in 1900-1910

[cyten]

Northern Albanians

[cyten]

Laz men with "Black Sea Yataghans"

[David]

Laz men with "Black Sea Yataghans"
The handwritten caption on this photo seems to identify these men as Kurds. Is this incorrect then?

[gp]

Northern Albanians

picture is from a man of the famous Shalla or Shala tribe with Sokol Shpendi as one of their fiercest leaders and warriors


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbfUqRIG-Vc

[cyten]

The handwritten caption on this photo seems to identify these men as Kurds. Is this incorrect then?

I also asked a local friend here in Armenia and was told they were more likely Laz than Kurds, but I'm not an expert in this

[Rick]

I see a piso podang and some interesting spears; not to mention some badiks.
Also the figure on the left seems to have an absurdly large pedang or parang; would love to see what kind of blade is in that scabbard.

[cyten]

Gunsmiths in Bethlehem 1890's

[Rick]

I don't remember if I have posted this in the thread already.

[kronckew]

Interesting Cossack photo of old Scarface...

[werecow]

Came across this depiction of Baboa people wearing their traditional short swords or knives on an ethnographic arms dealer's site.

[Sajen]

Three pictures of the Aeta people (Negritos) on Luzon.

[Changdao]

Three pictures of the Aeta people (Negritos) on Luzon.

Those are some huge bows in proportion to their height!

[Ian]

Changdao, the Aeta people are very short. Men were commonly under five feet tall, but with improved nutrition their average height has increased a few inches since the early 1900s. They are still among the smallest demographic groups in the Philippines.

[Gavin Nugent]

Here are two rare photographs, they show what was certainly among the very last of the mounted Indian warriors. I found the first photo awhile back, recently I ran into the second photo. These two photos were obviously meant to be seen together, they are labeled #38 and #39. I edited both photos and created a new image showing both side of this Indian warrior in one photo.

Indian warrior from Orchha. Mounted Indian warrior with a tulwar sword, wearing mail and plate armor (zirah bagtar), helmet (khula khud) and arm guards (dastana), he is holding a very long lance and there is a shield at his side.

Great photos! Thanks for sharing and editing.

I have a heavy duty Indian spear here of similar length.

I've often thought it was Mughal heavy cavalry, perhaps even Sri Lankan in origin as there are similarities to a very long old Sri Lankan lance here, however, I remain uncertain as the large one does not have the taper and POB like the one in the images.

Thanks again for sharing!

[DavidFriedman]

What year was this photo of the two with long sabers?

[Ren Ren]

What year was this photo of the two with long sabers?
I think this photo was taken between 1880-1920. It will be possible to say more precisely if you are lucky enough to find the original image.

[gp]

no photos but drawings from an older period

[Gavin Nugent]

A link from another discussion, Chota Nagpur

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19768

[cyten]

Tangiers

[Sajen]

A warrior from Galela, Halmahera. There is my wife born, in Galela.

[gp]

A warrior from Galela, Halmahera. There is my wife born, in Galela.

terima kasih banyak tuan D , thnx a lot Mista D.

Hereby some more pics of the North / utara Maluku from the Alifuru people

and best wishes to your most charming wife ...Ratu Rumah !

[gp]

and some more pics how their tradition is kept alive, both at home and in NL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKWtW6XnsCI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLFh7mS3TNc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp9pH_5bkzY

Happy new Year to all of you / selamat tahun baru ♥

[Sajen]

This picture looks like it shows Dayak warriors! :confused:

[Sajen]

A warrior from Galela, Halmahera. There is my wife born, in Galela.

Taken from Willy Kükenthal, "Im Malaysischen Archipel. Forschungsreise in den Molukken und in Borneo". 1896

[Sajen]

and some more pics how their tradition is kept alive, both at home and in NL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKWtW6XnsCI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLFh7mS3TNc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp9pH_5bkzY

Happy new Year to all of you / selamat tahun baru ♥

Selamat tahun baru!

These pictures shows Alfuren from Ceram IMVHO.

[gp]

This picture looks like it shows Dayak warriors! :confused:

talking Dayaks...

[gp]

and whilst we are in the neighborhood...
an Algur from the Moluccans
2 pics taken in Halmaheira
a well to do gent from Java
a couple from Atjeh / Aceh
some pencak lads not to mess with
and some Molucccans
source: Rijksmuseum, National Foto Museum all in NL

[gp]

3 pics by Dr. Henricus Marinus Neeb taken in Atjeh in the 19th century

[gp]

and now some gents with moustaches from the Balkans ( Bulgar, Albanian, Greek, Macedonian, Montenegrin, Serb, Hercegowenian and Bosnian) not to mess with,
but as friends the best company you can wish for and...
having a drink some homemade stuff
( speaking from a drink experience with all the mentioned nationalities, except one )
☺☺☺

[gp]

the last few...

the last gent's dress looks close to the uniform & sword to the one from The Spekulatius Cookie Hussar

[Sajen]

and whilst we are in the neighborhood...
an Algur from the Moluccans
2 pics taken in Halmaheira
a well to do gent from Java
a couple from Atjeh / Aceh
some pencak lads not to mess with
and some Molucccans
source: Rijksmuseum, National Foto Museum all in NL

This picture shows an Alfur from the Wemale tribes of Ceram. Rare type of sword he holds.

[Sajen]

and whilst we are in the neighborhood...
an Algur from the Moluccans
2 pics taken in Halmaheira
a well to do gent from Java
a couple from Atjeh / Aceh
some pencak lads not to mess with
and some Molucccans
source: Rijksmuseum, National Foto Museum all in NL

This man doesn't look from Halmahera to my eyes, the shield is from Sulawesi and also the clothes looks to be from Sulawesi.
It seems that also old sources could be wrong.

[Sajen]

and whilst we are in the neighborhood...
an Algur from the Moluccans
2 pics taken in Halmaheira
a well to do gent from Java
a couple from Atjeh / Aceh
some pencak lads not to mess with
and some Molucccans
source: Rijksmuseum, National Foto Museum all in NL

Yes, that's typical Halmahera, salawaku and pade, also the dress is correct!

[Sajen]

and whilst we are in the neighborhood...
an Algur from the Moluccans
2 pics taken in Halmaheira
a well to do gent from Java
a couple from Atjeh / Aceh
some pencak lads not to mess with
and some Molucccans
source: Rijksmuseum, National Foto Museum all in NL

Moro people from Southern Philippines.

[cyten]

Maharaja Ranjor Singh of Ajaigarh

[gp]

just got some Illustrated News papers from Germany, Austria and England between 1860 and 1900/1910

A nice one from Afghanistan

[Changdao]

Yi people in Yunnan or Sichuan with their laquered leather armour and leather shields.

In addition, a Korean painting representing Sichuanese Ming dynasty troops under Liu Ting during the Imjin War (1592-1598). Some of the troopers are wearing armours identical to the Yi ones.

[cyten]

India

[gp]

Dagestan and Tsakhur from the south

[gp]

back 2 the Balkans...

[gp]

and Tserkes

[gp]

interesting also for art lovers amongst you...

after Rembrandt and Vermeer in the past, the Dutch Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam now has again a most interesting exhibition on Frans Hals, with paintings from all over Europe . It is till June and reservation is required.

I just returned and was "blown outta my socks" by the detail and beauty of his portraying of the cold waepons at that time, specially the grips / hilts. Look for youself and enjoy !

[gp]

and the last couple of piccs

[fernando]

Splendid !!!

[gp]

looking up something, I stumbled upon these 3 interesting items:

Three Arrowheads, circa 1437-39. Bohemia, probably Prague. Exhibited at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

These extremely large arrowheads, originally mounted on wooden straps, probably served as symbols of rank.

They are decorated with royal monograms and insignia as well as religious invocations. The three prongs bear the monogram of AR Albert, King of Bohemia and Hungary (reigned 1437-39). In one case the monogram AE is also found, probably for Albert and Elizabeth, his queen.

The right and left arrowheads bear the mark of the Turkish Arsenal, indicating that they were captured by Ottoman forces, perhaps during the campaign of 1439 during which Albert was killed, and then stored in the Turkish Arsenal in Constantinople.

[fernando]

Beautiful pictures, gp.
But ... where are the "People with Ethnographic Arms" in them ? ;).

[gp]

Beautiful pictures, gp.
But ... where are the "People with Ethnographic Arms" in them ? ;).



guess perhaps room to start a new topic like these kind of historic items ?

but to please your puristic rule; picture added now

Solution to a question....;)

[fernando]

Yes, obviously a new topic indeed. This one has hardly something to do with it :confused:.

[gp]

...

[fernando]

guess the weapons were the most important item here to discuss, never thought we were puristic like the inquisition within a certain topic...:eek::):):)
C'mon gp. This is the one only topic dedicated to period people with Ethno weapons. As if you had no chance to post those arrowheads in a more adequate thread ... even in a new topic. I will skip over the puristic part !

[AvtoGaz]

Armenian warrior from Zeytun

[gp]

Kalmuk from a most interesting geographic book from 1618

[Bob A]

This picture looks like it shows Dayak warriors! :confused:

The sword shouldered by the central figure appears to be of particularly rare form of belato, associated with Nias island.

[Sajen]

The sword shouldered by the central figure appears to be of particularly rare form of belato, associated with Nias island.



Hello Bob,

I don't think so, it's a mandau with the edge pointed to his throat. See also the handle in his hand. ;) Also the blowpipe, shields and costumes are Dayak.

Regards,
Detlef

[Rick]

The item link in the posts above shows other items at the bottom of that page for sale which is not allowed. :(

[gp]

Hello Bob,

I don't think so, it's a mandau with the edge pointed to his throat. See also the handle in his hand. ;) Also the blowpipe, shields and costumes are Dayak.

Regards,
Detlef

FYI: I got this picture from an old Dutch book about the Dutch Indies on the Alifuru in the Moluccan islands...

so I think our friend Detlev might be correct, as the literature of those days might contain some errors but nevertheless it concerned the Dutch colonial region .

Some more pics on the Mena Muria'warriors from the Moluccans .
The last pic are Honitetu-Alifuru dancing the tjakalele Piru, Ceram 1912

[Sajen]

The item link in the posts above shows other items at the bottom of that page for sale which is not allowed. :(

I don't know what happened, I just copied the picture, sorry!

Ah, now I understand, it was the link provided by Bob.

[Bob A]

Hello Bob,

I don't think so, it's a mandau with the edge pointed to his throat. See also the handle in his hand. ;) Also the blowpipe, shields and costumes are Dayak.

Regards,
Detlef

Thank you; I had noted the handle, but was overexcited by the blade shape.
You're of course correct about the accoutrements.

I should shave with Occam's razor.

[gp]

Lavian Riflemen, AKA "strelniki"

Part of the Russian Imperial Army, in WW I about 30.000 men around 1917
Some later joined the Bolshevik revolution and hence its army
The majority remained in Latvia to protect the country due to an internal strugle and instability,
caused by 3 governments fighting for control ( German, Sovjet and Latvian) untill Latvia's independance 1920/22
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=272916&postcount=343

a couple more pics of these soldiers and their swords

[gp]

two sculptures by Jean Francois Theodore Gechter ; one an Ottoman warrior and the other a scene from the battle of Aboukir

[Ian]

gp, do you know who the king on horseback is supposed to be?

[gp]

gp, do you know who the king on horseback is supposed to be?

Unfortunately not: the only title on this sculpture is “ Guerrier à Cheval “ , i.e. warrior on horse and made end 19th century. Sometimes “Ottoman” added to warrior on some of the literature describing this piece of art.

[gp]

with reference to a resent topic, one of the early pics in "the West" of these fierce and feared warriors

"Janissaire, Chef-Arciere, Comandante, et Bourreau Turc - XV -XVI Siècle" acquaforte originale ca. 15,5x25,5 cm by Raphael Jacquemin (1821 - 1881)
in a book of maps published by Delatre Paris in 1870

[gp]

some CDV's from the Ottoman Empire around 1860/70

[gp]

a few postcards from the DACH region between 1885 - 1913 with halberds:

[Bob A]

Period Photo of Armenian circa 1880

[gp]

some nice Balkan pics, Macedonian, Greek and Albanian amongst them.
Between 1875 - 1905

[Ian]

Figuure 1. This is a well known etching of an Illonaon (Ilanun, Iranum) pirate that was published from a water color and ink sketch by Samuel Francis Marryat, a French artist who traveled through Borneo in 1848. The site of the sketch is indicated as Tampassook, Borneo. I have also extracted a blow-up of the sword held by this individual and the keris he wears at his waist.

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Figure 2. This appears to have been that pirate's paraw. The figure aft looks very much like the individual in the initial picture, and is wearing identical clothing. At the bow on the lower deck is a large lantaka, a bronze cannon that was used widely in the South China Sea.
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238952


Figure 3. In another sketch, Marryat records a (not very friendly) encounter with a Datu (possibly the Sultan) in Bruni, and his retinue (1848). There is one fellow standing in his canoe who is carrying what appears to be a kampilan, and doing his best to look tough. The other standing figures appear to be women, perhaps the brides of the Datu/Sultan. An interesting composition that captures some tension in the moment.
238953
238954


Figure 4. "Procession of the Sultan of Gonong Tabor" (1848). Another Marryat sketch. The flag bearer in front has a sword while the other members of the party mostly carry a spear and shield, and wear a keris. The Sultan wears a sword and keris.
238955


Figure 5. The last Marryat sketch I could find online was this one of Dayak women (no weapons visible).
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[gp]

one from Smyrna an another Russian

[gp]

one pic from Dajaks from Serewak , all others from Atjeh
sources: several museums in NL