Two handed swords

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

Here are some pics of the same, plus another two handed German sword (16th century). Any information as to the second one too (origin, shape, etc.) ?

Thanks for all,

jm

[fernando]

Cerimonial ?!
The cat is the real thing, though ;)

.

[Matchlock]

Though the cat is no doubt by far the cutest thing in the pics ;) , I think the sword might be genuine as well.
What I do not like about this 'traditionally thought to be historic' kind of presentation in general is the fact that a) two-hand swords were not used by armored men, and b) the suit of armor is much smaller than the sword ...

Best,
Michael

[kronckew]

i don't know, the cat looks like a modern reproduction. ;)

interesting serrated blade. reminds me of a tulwar recently posted (like today :))

the knights look a bit short*. i'd probably blame the display stands.

the cat looks like it's the right height tho.

*- just saw matchlock's post a minute earlier than mine :) GMTA.

[Matchlock]

Hi Kronckew,

Yup, seems I was somewhat quicker on the draw ... :rolleyes:

I tried to brighten up the images because I think the sword is worth a discussion. I like the wavy line ornament on the ricasso often found on such big swords.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Well understood that, when i suggest cerimonial, i don't pretend is not guenuine ... only not a combat one but, one to display power and authoritiy :o .

[Matchlock]

Fully agreed, 'Nando, ;)

Your comment was not the reason at all why I said I thought it was genuine. Let's see what Ottmar says ...

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

The second two-hand sword seems to feature a genuine North German early-17th c. blade.
It should however not be presented together with a late 16th c. horseman's armor and an early-16th c. style Katzbalger because this ensemble does not convey a homogeneous impression.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

Thanks for all this interesting information. At the Barcelona Citadel Museum, you can also see the weavy ornament at the ricasso of a similar two handed sword (see link below).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/68308572@N00/414348824/sizes/l/in/photostream/

My German two handed sword was previously on display in a Dutch Museum. It has been dated to ca. 1570 according to the information I have on it.

It is 184 cm length and weighs 3.8 kg (ca. 8 pounds) :eek: .

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

As to my cat (Katz), it remains outdoor because it probably saw that the 16th century Katzbalger is missing its original scabbard.... ;)

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

This is a Landsknecht officer (captain) infantry full armor, ca. 1560. They are described to wear a close combat katzbalger, as well as either an halberd/pike, or a two hand sword, as they were fighting on foot at the front ranks of their infantry company (fahlein), consisting of 400 landsknecht mercenaries. Only the colonel and the second in command, lieutnant colonel, were horsemen among landsknecht officers. This katzbalger should be mid 16th century (later period of landsknechts), due to the shape of the passau running wolf etched on blade and quillons.
The match should not be so bad !

Isn't it ?

Jm

[Matchlock]

Hi Jean-Marc,


Thanks for responding so fast.

As concerns the Katzbalger:
I feel that we really need to see good close-ups of the ricasso section and the characteristic fluting which should be there. The overall length of the weapon should not fall short of ca. 88 cm, possible wear and working time shortening theoretically included.

As regards your ensemble: I did not mean to say it was bad by any means - which of us can present anything approximating that? Anyway, it is of museum quality, no doubt. It is both decorative and optically imposing. A fair compromise, no question.
After all, and just judging by a few pics, I think you have been doing very well! :)

Did you consider studying this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8630



Best from Lower Bavaria for tonight,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

This is a Landsknecht officer (captain) infantry full armor, ca. 1560. They are described to wear a close combat katzbalger, as well as either an halberd/pike, or a two hand sword, as they were fighting on foot at the front ranks of their infantry company (fahlein), consisting of 400 landsknecht mercenaries. Only the colonel and the second in command, lieutnant colonel, were horsemen among landsknecht officers. This katzbalger should be mid 16th century (later period of landsknechts), due to the shape of the passau running wolf etched on blade and quillons.
The match should not be so bad !

Isn't it ?

Jm

Bonjour Jean-Marc,

yes, this is all correct.

beautifully homogeneous armor, excellent!

the 2 hand sword (without the blade Flamberge) is also from the middle of the 16th century (1550-1570), a similar same sword can be found in the livrustkammeren in Stockholm.(see picture Seitz Blankwaffen p 295).

are there any traces of where "fleur de lis" have been ,inside the ring-guards, most of this type 2-hander have them ?

the katzbalger, I think I have seen before, have you recently purchased it from a dealer in the Netherlands ?
to say something about it that makes sense, (probably) high resolution photographs are needed.


best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello all,

Thanks for the interesting comments. Indeed, the katzbalger has been purchased in the Netherlands (at Bolk antiques, European dealer of fine antique Swords and Armors). It was previously in a 40-year old private collection. The seller in the Netherlands (Ton Bolk, highly recommended) got only one period katzbalger in almost 40-year business (this one) while many later 19th century replicas were obtained by the same and sold over the years...
Concerning the two hand sword (straight blade), I will look inside the ring guards later today and will let you know for the 'fleurs-de-Lys'.

The length of the Katzbalger is 74 cm. There are a mid 16th century 'Passau running wolf' (at center blade on two sides), and also (at ricasso) three 'cross and orb' motifs (in a triangle) one one side, and three moons (also in a triangle) on the reverse side of blade.

My best ,

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

Indeed, I have seen the (outstanding) link to the 'Katzbalger' thread. It is the best thread I ever found on any forum or so (can almost make a very well documented book with it !).

Thanks and all the best,

jm

[fernando]

Hi Jean Marc.
Could you show a close picture of the opposite (left) side of the katzbalger guard ?

[Atlantia]

Hi Jean-Marc

Beautiful armour and swords! :eek:

Can we see some close-ups of the second two hander please (the straight edged blade one). Especially the hilt and guard please.
Thank you
Gene

[cornelistromp]

Hello all,

Thanks for the interesting comments. Indeed, the katzbalger has been purchased in the Netherlands (at Bolk antiques, European dealer of fine antique Swords and Armors). It was previously in a 40-year old private collection. The seller in the Netherlands (Ton Bolk, highly recommended) got only one period katzbalger in almost 40-year business (this one) while many later 19th century replicas were obtained by the same and sold over the years...
Concerning the two hand sword (straight blade), I will look inside the ring guards later today and will let you know for the 'fleurs-de-Lys'.

The length of the Katzbalger is 74 cm. There are a mid 16th century 'Passau running wolf' (at center blade on two sides), and also (at ricasso) three 'cross and orb' motifs (in a triangle) one one side, and three moons (also in a triangle) on the reverse side of blade.

My best ,

jm

Hi,
yes ton Bolk offers very nice range of weapons, especially his firearms are generally in a beautiful condition.
BTW the authentic....katzbalgers post #95 and #96 in the above mentioned katzbalger thread are offered/sold by him in 2009.

Can you please post some detailed pictures of the Katzbalger, if possible of;
the hilt , the running wolf and all the marks in the ricasso, also of the extremely damaged edge.

thanks+regards,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Sorry for the quality of some pics... :o

[Jean-Marc S.]

:D

[Jean-Marc S.]

:shrug:

[Matchlock]

Bonjour Jean-Marc,

yes, this is all correct.

beautifully homogeneous armor, excellent!

the 2 hand sword (without the blade Flamberge) is also from the middle of the 16th century (1550-1570), a similar same sword can be found in the livrustkammeren in Stockholm.(see picture Seitz Blankwaffen p 295).

are there any traces of where "fleur de lis" have been ,inside the ring-guards, most of this type 2-hander have them ?

the katzbalger, I think I have seen before, have you recently purchased it from a dealer in the Netherlands ?
to say something about it that makes sense, (probably) high resolution photographs are needed.


best,


Hi Jasper,

My friend - and I am completely with him - states that that was an old-fashioned first-half to mid-20th century dating unfortunately adopted by Seitz; weaponry has made progress ever since and the correct period assignment for this latest North German type of two-hand procesional swords should be '2nd decade 17th century'.

I attach images of a group of those North German two-hand swords acquired as 'Vortragschwerter' (processional swords) by the town council of Emden in ca. 1615 (!), and still preserved in the Emden Amory; one of them (see close-up) is comparable to the one in discussion.

The lower three photos taken by me in the Emden reserve collection in 1992 show a similar North German type, early 17th c., the grip missing, the ricasso with comparable engraved line decoration.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Jean-Marc,

This 'Katzbalger' blade was shortened from a Tuareg sword (kaskara) and bears the characteristic crescent marks which were struck into the cold iron, in contrary to Northern European blades where the makers marks were always deeply stuck into the red-hot iron. The so-called 'wolf' and 'orb and cross' are just primitively and crudely scratched instead of cut with an engraver's gouge - nothing else! All original orb and cross marks are inlaid with yellow metal (line tausia).
In short, I am sorry to state that this is one of the most brutal forgeries I have ever seen ... my word on it! Return it as soon as possible.

Please study my thread on Katzbalgers and show me just one genuine sample with
- this kind of marks
- this kind of blade without the ricasso flutings!

Sorry but best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

A sword similar type of the sword under discussion is also dated by Thomas del Mar end of 17thC.
see picture. but maybe he has also read from Seitz ;)

The sword you show in the last 3 pictures is a composite 2-hander.
with a cross-guard from the processional swords almost certainly made for the guard of Julius, Duke of Brunswick and Luneburg in Heinrich Grubenhagen.
most of these swords have original blades which are dated 1573,1574,....
a composite Guard of Julius sword with a similar blade as the composite you have posted has been sold by Sothebys 5-15 oktober 2005, schloss Marienburg and is dated end of the 16thC.lot 231.
lot 224-lot230 are original Julius guard swords and all dated 1573/74


I think the 17thC processional swords you are refering to have diamand shaped bars at the guard and flat blades. (Io flat bars and diamands shaped blades)

best,
jasper

[Iain]

Hi Jean-Marc,

This 'Katzbalger' blade was shortened from a Tuareg sword (kaskara) and bears the characteristic crescent marks which were struck into the cold iron, in contrary to Northern European blades where the makers marks were always deeply stuck into the red-hot iron. The so-called 'wolf' and 'orb and cross' are just primitively and crudely scratched instead of cut with an engraver's gouge - nothing else! All original orb and cross marks are inlaid with yellow metal (line tausia).
In short, I am sorry to state that this is one of the most brutal forgeries I have ever seen ... my word on it! Return it as soon as possible.

Please study my thread on Katzbalgers and show me just one genuine sample with
- this kind of marks
- this kind of blade without the ricasso flutings!

Sorry but best,
Michael

I know nothing about genuine katzbalgers but I'm pretty sure that blade isn't from a Tuareg takouba or a Sudanese kaskara. The half moon stamps used are quite different on Saharan weapons (outline only, not stamping the entire shape like this, and are found in pairs, not the triple arrangement seen here. The profile of the blade also wouldn't fit for a kaskara or takouba. The scratched wolf and cross and orb are similar to some native African imitation marks however.

I don't have the expertise to judge the sword and obviously would bow to superior knowledge, but just wanted to say that the blade and the half moons do not correspond to any kaskara or takouba I've ever run across. :)

[Matchlock]

Hi Iain,


Here are just a few samples of Tuareg swords with double crescent blade marks from German sales of the past years; the sales dates are shown in the scans.

The marks on the last one are hardly visible but the description states that they are there.

Please cf.

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?46098-Twin-Crescent-Moon-Makers-Mark

http://www.google.de/imgres?q=half+moon+mark+sword&hl=de&client=firefox-a&hs=5mU&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:de:official&biw=998&bih=605&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsb&tbnid=UODknmyfL6v2SM:&imgrefurl=http://takouba.org/takouba36&docid=3DM4LpQtv7zOjM&imgurl=http://takouba.org/fp-content/images/s-36/s-36-001.jpg&w=1000&h=750&ei=rFBqT97OIZDitQb_9KCUAg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=299&sig=102057399354938760134&page=3&tbnh=125&tbnw=167&start=42&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:42&tx=16&ty=68

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14266


I should say that the experts on the Ethnographic section could tell you more on this topic.


Best,
Michael

[fernando]

I am afraid you didn't get Iain's point, Michl :o

[Iain]

Hi Michael,

Actually those illustrate my point precisely. The form of the marks is different and typically focused only on the outline, they are also always encountered in pairs. On the katzbalger in question three half moons are stamped which would be incredibly unusual for a Tuareg sword. That is not to say it couldn't happen but it would be entirely unique in my experience. :)

The profile is also not correct for a Tuareg sword, if it had some decent age the tip would have long ago been narrowed from excessive sharpening and would show heavy sharpening marks as Tuaregs typically use stones to hone the edge with leave very distinctive long striations.

By the way the first sword is in fact a kaskara from the Sudan, not a Tuareg sword, in the case of kaskara the tip is almost always a sharp point, not rounded.

I actually only collect takouba so I am fairly comfortable on the topic which is why I thought I would leave a comment on this thread. :) You can look at http://takouba.org if you like, which is my website.

Of course takouba and kaskara blades unfortunately often do turn up mated with basket hilts and the like to form modern fakes, but just looking at this blade, I don't think it's from a takouba or a kaskara. However I can't comment on the authenticity of the entire sword as it's very much out of my area of study and experience. :)

Cheers,

Iain

[Matchlock]

Sorry if I didn't.

I just tried to back up my thesis.

m

[Matchlock]

Hi Michael,

Actually those illustrate my point precisely. The form of the marks is different and typically focused only on the outline, they are also always encountered in pairs. On the katzbalger in question three half moons are stamped which would be incredibly unusual for a Tuareg sword. That is not to say it couldn't happen but it would be entirely unique in my experience. :)

The profile is also not correct for a Tuareg sword, if it had some decent age the tip would have long ago been narrowed from excessive sharpening and would show heavy sharpening marks as Tuaregs typically use stones to hone the edge with leave very distinctive long striations.

By the way the first sword is in fact a kaskara from the Sudan, not a Tuareg sword, in the case of kaskara the tip is almost always a sharp point, not rounded.

I actually only collect takouba so I am fairly comfortable on the topic which is why I thought I would leave a comment on this thread. :) You can look at http://takouba.org if you like, which is my website.

Cheers,

Iain


Excellent, Iain,

I guess we are on the same page now - thank you! And I do like your site although this is not my expertise; this hopefully will explain for my mixing up the terminology.

Anyway, my post did not mean to criticize, just clarify. :)

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

...You can look at http://takouba.org if you like, which is my website...
And why not here ?

http://takouba.org/the_takouba_form_with_a_focus_on_range_and_distrib ution.pdf

[Iain]

Excellent, Iain,

I guess we are on the same page now - thank you! And I do like your site although this is not my expertise; this hopefully will explain for my mixing up the terminology.

Anyway, my post did not mean to criticize, just clarify. :)

Best,
Michael

No problem Michael, I only study a pretty small topic so I am a very limited collector and I don't get to post much in the European forum! I saw a little chance so I wanted to help out if I could. :) I really enjoy reading the expert posts from you and others on European arms.


And why not here ?

http://takouba.org/the_takouba_form_with_a_focus_on_range_and_distrib ution.pdf

Hi Fernando,

You are very kind to also link to my PDF. :) Maybe it can also be useful. But I don't want to distract to much from the real topic of this thread!

[Matchlock]

That's exactly true for me as well - just that I am on the 'other side' of the forum! :)
m

[fernando]

...Hi Fernando,
You are very kind to also link to my PDF. :) Maybe it can also be useful. But I don't want to distract to much from the real topic of this thread!
No real distraction; not so distant from the thread topic. Besides,Takouba blades do have a nostalgic European flavour ;).

[Iain]

No real distraction; not so distant from the thread topic. Besides,Takouba blades do have a nostalgic European flavour ;).

Well I could have linked to my pride and joy... ;) http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14757

Actually I think this blade with the three half moons could be some kind of later trade blade? Like the one I am attaching images of. These astral symbols with stars and moons seem to have been very popular in many areas outside of Europe.

The thing that seems odd to me, being a little used to looking at trade blades, is that the profile on this blade, flat, no fullers, not really any taper and rounded tip, is that it would be pretty unusual for a export blade for African or maybe middle Eastern swords. Actually I am struggling to think of what type of sword would have used it outside of Europe. :shrug:

[Matchlock]

No real distraction; not so distant from the thread topic. Besides,Takouba blades do have a nostalgic European flavour ;).

They definitely do, just like the stocks of Turkish matchlock and miquelet guns, as well as those of Indian matchlock guns (and the mechanisms of the latter) carry on the early 16th c. North European tradition!

m

[cornelistromp]

re; Katzbalger
Unfortunately it is not possible, merely on the basis of the pictures to determine the authenticity.
The blade of flat lenticular section without a ricasso came one more katbalgers.
A one-piece iron grip I have not seen before, but this does not mean it has never existed.
The simple chisseled spirally fluting at the s-guard looks looks unusual so do the flat terminals, but again this means nothing.


The damage to the edge at the point is in my point of view not the result of fighting but is added later! At the tip, there are several notches applied at the same angle and force, it looks simulated!
I agree with Michaels comments on the marks orb and passau wolf.
( maybe not African but it does not look authentic/European)

all this does not mean that the sword is not the real thing , but when in doubt I would always have it examined.

re: 2hand sword
it is clear it never had the fleur de lys inside the guard.

best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello all,

Thanks for the posts. For information, here are the comments of Mr. Juan J. Perez (moderator at Sword Forum International forum) on the katzbalger blade markings:

'Nice sword indeed. From the distance it looks good to me, although in such pieces one should be very cautious regarding authenticity.

The markings are quite typical from the Renaissance and the Germanic area. Moons are easily found on German blades up to the 18th century, while orbs are a medieval theme often found in the next centuries.'


I have some clues that clearly show that these exact 'three crescent moon motifs' and three 'orb and cross' motifs are indeed German of the 16th century period. Have to find once more this information on the web and will post them in the forum ;)

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello All,

The IDENTICAL shape of the 'three moon' motif is found in a German city coat-of-arms of the renaissance period. In this city coat-of-arms that contains three moons arranged in a triangle, the shape of the moons is IDENTICAL to that etched on the blade of the katzbalger. I have to review the 15,000 German city coat-of-arms to refind it one more time (Siebmacher, year 1605; link http://www.wappenbuch.com/) !
At the moment, I have reviewed only about a thousand of coat-of-arms :shrug: !

Hope this helps,

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

Here is a katzbalger that was sold by Hermann Historica (found it on the web). It appears to be similar to the one I bought from Bolk antiques, including at the level of blade and hilt. :rolleyes:

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

In reference to the 'Three moons' motif mark found on blade of 16th century Katzbalger : as mentioned previously, such an IDENTICAL 'three moons' motif is found on German coat-of-arms (see third quarter) of Sachsen-Lauenburg, indicating an actual german origin of such motif, rather than african or so (as suggested in some posts). I will search in other german cities coat-of-arms too.

jm :rolleyes:

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

The 'three orbs and crosses' motif (three orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle) is described to be typical german mark of the mid-16th century. There is a previous post in the forum showing exactly the same pattern of three orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle.

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

Here are some information from specialized books, that I got on the web (Rudolf Cronau's Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie, published in 1885; Gyngell's Armourers marks, page 30).

- The shape of 'orb and cross' motif found on katzbalger's blade is exactly the same as the one shown on pic (plate 1: number 24, and plate 2: middle orb mark), indicating a 16th century period, coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade;

- The 'three orbs and crosses' motif -with orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle- is also reported to be typical German 16th century (not shown in this post: I have to refind it on the web :shrug: ), also coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade;

- The 'Passau running wolf' motif etched on both sides of katzbalger's blade is exactly the same as the one described to be mid-16th century, also coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade. Interestingly, it has some additional details that were also reported amongst known variants of the 'Passau running wolf' (see plate 3, number 14).

Such blade marks are therefore totally coherent with a German 16th century blade... :rolleyes:

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi,

Here is another 16th century katzbalger (found among forum posts) that does not show any fullers on blade. Interestingly, a renaissance poem is etched on the blade :D

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Here is an additional pic of katzbalger.

[Matchlock]

I am sorry to say that the two Katzbalgers last posted are spitting images of 19th c. copies! No genuine Renaissance sword is known to have a poem on its blade! This was the characteristically overexaggerating, idealizing 19th c. Neo-Renaissance manner.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

I am sorry to say that the two Katzbalgers last posted are spitting images of 19th c. copies! No genuine Renaissance sword is known to have a poem on its blade! This was the characteristically overexaggerating, idealizing 19th c. Neo-Renaissance manner.

Best,
Michael

@ Michael,

which two katzbalgers do you mean ?, the first katzbalger is posted by Lee in your katzbalger thread!!!!(also in post#37 of this thread)
I do believe Lee's katzbalger is a genuine piece! probably with a later added poem.

and the second one is the katzbalger of Jean-Marc under discussion :confused:


@ Jean-Marc
the type and shape of the katzbalger are in accordance with katzbalgers which are known.
The symbols from the 16th century are also well known.

nevertheless there are some features that I find difficult to place:
- The grip is made outof one single piece of iron, there is no horn ring used between the guard and pommelgrip, this differs from the known katzbalgers of this type.

- The three moons in the blade are struck in as a makers mark, a coat of arms would have been engraved in the blade not stamped.
Also, the size and position is rather unusual for a makers mark.

- The Passau wolf and orbs are engraved very lightly on the surface.
many of these marks are deeper and often also have an inlay in latten hammered in.

- The "business" damage to the edge is ​​too extreme.

I really hope like you that this turns out to be an original katzbalger, but my advice is to have this investigated by a specialist with the piece in hands.

hopes it helps

best,

[Matchlock]

O.k., you cannot prove the 'authenticiry' of a 19th c. item by comparing it with another 19th c. companion. Of course, they are similar and show the same characteristics - but they are both not genuine.

Guess I'd better quit on this topic. I know what I know and I stick to what I said.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi,
Thanks for the posts.
Indeed, the first katzbalger is from Lee. You are right on the different points and also when saying that one should have the sword in hands to analyze it with better feeling and accuracy in judgment. Last week, I have shown the beast to an old senior collector owning an incredible collection of antique swords and armors he started in the 1970's (of course very rich ! I got the landsknecht captain armor with him); After careful expertise de visu, he confirmed the katzbalger is fully renaissance period (not composite), similar to the advised opinion of Ton Bolk.

Jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

Contrary to your opinion on this thread, I do think both katzbalgers are genuine, of renaissance period. No doubt about that, but please stay with us on this thread !

Thanks in advance,

Jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello all,

I discovered an interesting find (at least to me): when looking at the book entitled 'The Landsknechts' (Mens-at-arms series number 58, Douglas Miller and GA Embleton), I noticed that, facing the third quarter of coat-of-arms depicting the 'three moons' motif (which is found on katzbalger's blade), the fourth quarter of the same coat-of-arms shows the personal flag/standard of Georg Von Frundsberg (Lord of Midelheim), the father and supreme commander of Landsknechts ! :)
Therefore, it appears clear that this particular 'three moons' motif should be somehow 'linked' to the Landsknechts...

jm

To Michael: for information, the etching ('Passau wolf' and 'three orbs and crosses' motifs) on katzbalger's blade is not light (the pics of poor quality do not actually render justice to etching).

[cornelistromp]

the third quarter of sachsen-lauenburg coat of arms are no moons but three water-lily leaves, standing for the County of Brehna! see picture count Friedrich.
the crossed swords indicate the Saxon office as Imperial Arch-Marshal meaning the Saxon privilege to elect a prince.
This weapon of "kurzschwerter"are widely spread among the German nobility.

Unfortunately the logic of your theory in the previous post escapes me completely. :confused:

Due to the average execution and workmanship, this katzbalger is not very convincing. it looks like there is not much support to find, to designate this katzbalger as original 16thC.

though I also incline strongly to a later 19thC reproduction, it can still be authentic.
if you can live with this that's fine, if you want more certainty, you can ask a specialist/authority in the known auction houses.
For example, Hermann Historica; Robert Weis or Nicholas McCullough
they have made an excellent cataloque describtion of the Karsten Klingbeil collection.

best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Thanks Cornelistromp for giving your opinion, that appears to have now evolved (and which is not mine).
In heraldry, the quarters of almost every coat-of-arms vary significantly over the years or decades. Accordingly, I found another shape for the same quarter, also resembling the 'three moons' motif but still different from the two presented here.

jm

[Matchlock]

A documentation of typical 19th-20th century Katzbalger copies similar to the one posted here in post 45 is available!

I do not wish to post them here so anybody interested please pm me and you will receive that documentation, including close-ups and current market prices!

Best,
m

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

According to the last post of Cornelistromp, I have sent yesterday a series of detailed pics (up to 5.5 Mo resolution each !) of my katzbalger to famous Andrew Garcia for expertise (Armor4Sale: Authentication and Valuations of Antique Arms and Armor, including a service of museum restorers). He just replies that, from the pics, this katzbalger is actually all 16th century :D
This opinion is shared by advised persons or experts in antique swords, such as Juan J. Perez (moderator at Sword Forum International), David Gray, Raymond Tort and Ton Bolk (Bolk Antiques, a leading specialist dealer in Europe of Fine Antique Arms and Armor). Of note, some of them have had the katzbalger in hands.

jm

[Matchlock]

Hi JM,

Would you be interested in reading the documentation on Historismus Katzbalgers I announced?

If so, please pm me and leave your email.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

Ok. Thanks. Please send it to my email address, as I cannot access your page due to a limited access account.

jm

[cornelistromp]

Hi Jean-Marc,

After seeing Michaels mail, which can not be published here in this thread because it is about a similar/same katzbalger as yours in a future auction, (it can be published after the Hermann Historica auction).
Iam unfortunately 100 percent sure that your katzbalger is a reproduction.
Iam very sorry for this information.

Best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Cornelistromp,

Are you referring to his posts such as the previous one mentioned below ?
If yes, this is not convincing at all.

'This 'Katzbalger' blade was shortened from a Tuareg sword (kaskara) and bears the characteristic crescent marks which were struck into the cold iron, in contrary to Northern European blades where the makers marks were always deeply stuck into the red-hot iron. The so-called 'wolf' and 'orb and cross' are just primitively and crudely scratched instead of cut with an engraver's gouge - nothing else! All original orb and cross marks are inlaid with yellow metal (line tausia).
In short, I am sorry to state that this is one of the most brutal forgeries I have ever seen ... my word on it! Return it as soon as possible.

Please study my thread on Katzbalgers and show me just one genuine sample with
- this kind of marks
- this kind of blade without the ricasso flutings!

Sorry but best,
Michael'

[Jean-Marc S.]

To Cornelistromp:

Or are you referring to Michael's previous posts I just found on this forum ?


Michael's post 1:
A very good Katzbalger, ca. 1500-10, retaining its original blackened hilt, the blade struck with a Gothic minuscule p mark, overall length 118 cm (!).
Provenance: Sotheby's London, June 20, 1929 (800 USD), bought by Wiliam Randolph Hearst and sold again Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, Nov 27, 1961, lot 33 (estimate 2,500 SFr; I do not know what it went for).


Michael's post 2:
Could you please post an example of the Swedish P, Manuel, and give a date for the blade(s)?


Celtan's post (Manuel):
Most certainly, my good sir. Your wish is my command: c. Late 19th C. 1748 -1800s
: )
Manuel


Michael's post 3:
Hi Jim and Manuel,

First of all: thank you, Manuel, for sharing these good images. As I am in no way an expert in 18th/19th century items I am unable to decide on whether this P mark is related to that on the early 16th century Katzbalger or not. All I can say is that I do not believe in a relationship between the two.

If you have close look at the respective shapes of the letter P you will see the decisive difference between an early 16th century P (actually it is a minuscule p) and the same letter, only 200 years old.
I have managed to find a few examples of 15th to 16th century p minuscules although some of them are of rather poor quality. Still I hope that you can see my point. They are taken from 15th century manuscripts; the one showing two p minuscules one above the other is the mark of the Munich gunsmith Peter Peck which is found to be struck on the barrel of a ca. 1565 wheel-lock harquebus or long pistol.
Now that brings me to the important point that you made, Jim. Altough this is the case with Peter Peck's mark and the famous PGM mark attached ("Pegnitzer goss mich", Pegnitzer founded me) on early 16th century copper alloy cast haquebut and cannon barrels, the presence of a certain letter on a late medieval or early Renaissance weapon or on any item of arts and crafts does not necessarily mean that it is the maker's mark and the inital of his name. Often enough, e.g., we find the Gothic minuscules m on 500 year old caskets ond parts of armor where it usually stands for Mary, Mother of Jesus, or ihs meaning Jesus hominum salvator, Jesus Savior of Mankind. Another good example is, I think, the Gothic minuscule n on pieces of armor and firearm barrels where it is a town mark denoting that those items were made at Nuremberg. This kept in mind, the letter p on the Katzbalger blade might well stand for the Saints Peter or Paul - or it might be the maker's initial, or a town mark. Who knows? This is open to interpretation and makes such discussions worth while.
With all my best wishes,
Michael


Therefore, if Michael describes an actual 19th century katzbalger replica as being a 16th century original katzbalger, one might suggest that he will find an original 16th century katzbalger as being a 19th century katzbalger replica !

Am I right ??? :rolleyes:

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Dear Cornelistromp,

I know what is the clue -together with Michael- to identify with 'certainty' 19th century produced katzbalgers : the so-called 'pas d'ane' construction (stairs-like) of the hilt, a technique to work metal that did not exist in the 16th century but which existed in the 19th century and later on. This would be indeed actually a clue to formally identify later katzbalger replicas.
Importantly, you should be aware that the presence of some parallel lines along the groove of hilt does not always imply a 'pas d'ane' construction, and related later technology. I have carefully inspected under optical magnification the metal hilt of my katzbalger, especially focusing inside the grooves on both sides of hilt: the parallel lines that could be observed along the groove are NOT a 'pas d'ane' construction, but clearly hand-made file marks, that are more or less linear and regular, not continuous, more or less deep into the metal, depending on the part of groove you are looking at (orientation of lines sometimes left the groove itself further demonstrating unambigously it could NOT be a 'pas d'ane' construction !). These files marks -clearly identify as such- correspond to a hand-made finish of the hilt's groove with appropriate forgery instruments existing in the renaissance period.

Hope this would help in preventing of some mistakes regarding sword authentification,

jm

NB: To illustrate this, some parallel lines of hand-finish can be also seen in some pics showed in the new thread of Michael (see his period Saxon patrons) http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=136573#post136573

[Matchlock]

Hi JM,

Unfortunately this criterion alone won't do the trick. There is so much more to the problem: overall length, hilts, blades, marks, 'wolves', etc. And this cannnot be done by words of descriton but by photographic comparison alone.

Why do you not want to see this documentation? After all, it took me quite some time to set it up - and I did it especially for you ...

m

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

I already asked you in a previous post to send it to my email address, as I cannot access your page due to a limited access account.

Thanks,

jm

[Matchlock]

Hi Michael,

I already asked you in a previous post to send it to my email address, as I cannot access your page due to a limited access account.

Thanks,

jm




Sorry for overlooking that but I do not have your email. Perhaps Jasper can help! m :)

[cornelistromp]

Iam skiing in france so Iam not able to help unfortunately.
Please go to www.hermann-historica.com sale 64 lot 2394 for a similar katzbalger as yours.

[Matchlock]

Brilliant idea, Jasper,

Thank you, and have fun skiing!

m

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

My email is: sabatier.jm1@libertysurf.fr

I have seen the historismus katzbalger you are referring to, for sale at Hermann Historica. Indeed, they look clearly similar at first glance. When looking more closely, they are still different (blade shape, markings and their positioning on blade, hilt and top of pommel).

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi All,

For information, Mr. Ton Bolk (from Bolk Fine Antique Firearms and Armor, the Netherlands) is 100% sure this katzbalger is actually 16th century). He strongly stands on it. :D

Interestingly, I sent today high resolution pics to Mr. Gilbert Putterie (& Yvon Leyssens) from Magazin Royal (Belgium), who sell Antique Swords, Firearms and Armor from the medieval and renaissance period (with 30 years experience in field; they also represent Czerny's auctioneers). He said the katzbalger is clearly 16th century (metal, patina, construction, etc.) :D

Hope this helps,

jm

[Matchlock]

Hi Jm,

I'm sad to say it does not help at all. :shrug:
We are talking about dealers, after all.
Just for fun: try returning your item to Mr. Bolk or selling it to whoever you choose ...

Anyway, I sent you what I collected concerning our topic. More to follow when the respective upcoming sales will be over.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Ok. Thanks Michael.

Would you like to purchase it (if you give me big money, it is yours ;)) ?

[Matchlock]

Hi Jean-Marc,

Sorry but I only collect earliest firerams and accouterments. ;)

Does this mean I finally managed to convince you?

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Dear Michael,

Thanks so much for providing me with the pics on historismus katzbalgers that are for sale in an upcoming auction of Hermann Historica (I have had already seen them because they were previously emailed to me by Mr. Ton Bolk to show me how they were different from my katzbalger !). Frankly, I actually find them quite different -at various levels- from my katzbalger, as highlighted to Mr. Ton Bolk, such that the information is not convincing at all. I do think it is a 16th century katzbalger. I thank you because I appreciate your help and efforts on this thread. :)

My best,

jm

[cornelistromp]

Hello,

My email is: sabatier.jm1@libertysurf.fr

I have seen the historismus katzbalger you are referring to, for sale at Hermann Historica. Indeed, they look clearly similar at first glance. When looking more closely, they are still different (blade shape, markings and their positioning on blade, hilt and top of pommel).

jm
Hi Jean-Marc,

if you look at the Hermann-Historica katzbalger, the hilt is identical to yours.

The grip is the same (the tang-button is a separate small part and not belonging to any hilt) the s-shaped parrier guard is similar, even the decoration on this guard is the same. a pattern of 2 small incisions and 1 wide notch, only on the outside of the guard!!!which in itself hardly occurs
on katzbalger guards.

It is clear that Both of them have been produced in the same workshop.
The blades are probably authentic 16thc with subsequent/later engravings and subsequent damage. Actually it looks to me that somebody composed the katzbalgers from old and new parts.

If the katzbalger #2394 of Hermann-Historica is indeed historism or even later, then yours is most likely too. regardless of what various dealers on the basis of the photographs claim.
BTW have they recieved the complete information including the link of the Hermann-Historica katzbalger of sale of 64 lot 2394?
This could otherwise be retroactively mailed, I expect them to adjust the valuation on the basis of the above.

However it would probably be better if you can mail the 5mb pictures for valuation to Hermann-Historica direct.This certainly gives more clarity so why not do it ?


another track which can be successful, is to the trace the provenance.
From who's collection did it arise, where and when has this collector bought it.
Katzbalgers without verifiable provenance that have been recently popping up in the market are in advance suspicious.


your twohanders in this thread really are exceptionally beautiful so is the armor, but with this katzbalger I have serious concerns.

best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Thanks for the details and your opinon Cornelistromp.

[Matchlock]

This item fetched the unbelievably high price of 10,000 euro plus commission at a South German auction.

It is a good copy of a 1530's style (Ottheinrich type) Katzbalger but all stylistic and decorative elements are overexaggerated, which is characteristic of a sumptuous Historismus piece.
The blade is struck with an imitation of a Brescian eye mark which however is located too high up for a genuine piece, just below the quillons. The etching on the blade again is typical of the Historismus period, showing a warrior all'antica.
With an overall length of only 85 cm the sword is also too short; genuine Katzbalgers are usually a bit over 90 cm long provided that they have not been shortened at some later date.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

here I do not agree, this could well be a true katzbalger.
the blade looks at least good and authentic, both the position and the shape of the stamped mark, the length but also the warrior engraving probably of ABONIS and HIPORIS do look ok... 16th century.
I know at least 3 original 16th century swords with similar warrior engraving. swords from the 19th century with this type of engraving are unknown to me, but this does not mean that they don't exist.
For similar example of those warriors see Hermann Historica sale 64 lot 2312.


than the hilt, a similar, well almost indentical checked pattern at the s-guard with latten/brass can be seen on the katzbalger nr 95 published in Europaische Hieb UND Stich Waffen, Mueller, Koelling p.189. The grip is less convincing but this could be a later replacement or restoration.

best,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

Sorry for not sharing your opinion.

As I said it is a good and detailed copy but there are decisive details on both the hilt and ricasso that clerarly show the differences.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

of course it is good to disagree sometimes and besides Michael you can always adjust your opinion later ;)
here a magnificent 19th century (16thC style) katzbalger with good ricasso style characteristics. same mark as the 19thC katzbalger that you mailed me

best,

[Matchlock]

I cannot see it.

m

[cornelistromp]

I cannot see it.

m
?

[Matchlock]

?

Seems I missed the pictures; now they are there.

[cornelistromp]

Seems I missed the pictures; now they are there.
I forgot to place them at the first time, sorry!

[Matchlock]

Another 'Katzbalger' in early-16th c. style, 20th century.

m

[Matchlock]

As announced in post # 54, here is my documentation on characteristic Katzbalger copies; they just ended at auction at Hermann Historica's.
The first item failed to sell.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

The third and last piece.

Stylistically, it was the one closest to a genuine early-16th c. Katzbalger.


m

[elfina]

I find this discussion on the authenticity of various katzbalgers totally fascinating and truthfully, quite intimidating due to the fact that I had been wanting to buy one for my own collection. Given the number of fakes, it seems this is one type of sword for beginning collectors to totally avoid! Can anyone tell me where most of the historismus katzbalgers originate, particularly the blades? The patination and wear on most of them look totally convincing!! (I'm assuming they're not naturally aged Victorian era copies) Also, do makers of 16th century fakes concentrate most of their efforts on katzbalgers and two handers? :eek:

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, Elfina. :)
I am certain you will soon have a reply to your query.

[Matchlock]

Hi Elfina,

I cannot but totally consent to all your fears.

It takes years of closest possible study on the basis of many objects, genuine and fake alike, in order to tell them apart - and sometimes even the expert opinions vary.

Best,
Michael

[elfina]

Thanks for your reply, Michael!

Actually, my lack of expertise on katzbalgers and other 16th century swords has already cost me a lot of money. About eight years ago I purchased what was purportedly a genuine katzbalger from a dealer (now deceased) who shall go nameless. I found out through Bonhams (I think it was Bonhams and Butterfields then) it was a fake as were the bastard sword, war hammer, and two handed sword I also bought from this dealer (some of the items were not strictly fakes apparently; rather, they were Victorian copies, though the dealer described them as genuine originals). I ended up disposing of all of them through Bonhams in their San Francisco sale of June 29, 2005. If you have a copy of this catalog, the four items I mentioned are on page 79: 2413, 2414, 2415, and 2416. :(

Eric

[Matchlock]

Hi Eric,

I am sad to hear this, though it was just another version of the same old story.

I am sure you have doing a lot better with the stuff you are collecting now, and I have noticed Jim commenting on your espada ancha!

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Another Katzbalger copy, 19th c., in North Italian early-16th c. style.

It is in the Tojhusmuseet Copenhagen, and an almost identical item is in a German private collection which has been published in a monography.

m

[cornelistromp]

from the sale; the Karsten Klingbeil collection.
attributed to the 19thC.

[cornelistromp]

to make life easy, a probably 19th century katzbalger sold as a 16th century one by Sothebys. and a probably 16th century katzbalger sold as 19th century by Czerny (black background).

[fernando]

Amazing :confused: .
If you haven't mentioned the black background detail, i would have inferred the other way round :o .
Not knowing is like not seeing :shrug: .

[Matchlock]

Actually, this one was found to be absolutely original by my friend. He had known it for more than twenty years when it was in a North German collection, still heavily patinated but not for sale, not even for 20,000 Deutschmark.

20 years later, he recognized it at once at Czerny's though it got cleaned meanwhile, and he got it extremely cheap because nobody would believe!

Best,
m

[fernando]

Actually, this one was found to be absolutely original by my friend. He had known it for more than twenty years when it was in a North German collection, still heavily patinated but not for sale, not even for 20,000 Deutschmark.

Now he recognized at once at Czerny's though cleaned meanwhile, and got it extremely cheap because nobody would believe!

Best,
m
Now i remember you posting this sword and its episode.
I confess i find it quite bizarre that, having being in a collection with a 'priceless' status, it ended up being 'depromoted' and sold as a replica, to be 'promoted' back by a qualified collector ? :confused:
It sure is one of these things :shrug:

[Matchlock]

Yes, 'Nando,


It obviously is.

I have lived to see that happen way too often: you see a very good item in an otherwise uninteresting collection and make a gracious offer. What happens usually? The owner will think that you are trying to get the thing out "cheap" and that it is worth a whole lot more.

Of course, nobody ever will repeat that offer, or come near it.
Next the collector dies and the whole stuff, including that fine item, goes anonymously to a dealer or an auction because all the heirs want is quick money.

It happens all the time.


Best,
Michl

[fernando]

Yes, quite plausible.

[elfina]

Amazing :confused: .
If you haven't mentioned the black background detail, i would have inferred the other way round :o .
Not knowing is like not seeing :shrug: .


I totally agree with you!! Does anybody know why Czerny mistakenly identified this 16th century sword as 19th century in terms of specifics, i.e. to Czerny's specialist the hilt appeared suspicious, the blade was uncharacteristic, etc.?

[Matchlock]

I think it is mostly because almost nobody believes that genuine Katzbalgers exist!

m

[Dmitry]

The sword in post #20 is indeed a replica, in my opinion.
Just my $.02

[Matchlock]

Quite right, Dmitry,

I would say the blade with its way too many nicks looks 'overaged', apart from the fact that the sectioning of the blade (lenticular cross section) is not corrrect and the overall length is too short.

Best,
Michael

[Swordfish]

Actually, this one was found to be absolutely original by my friend. He had known it for more than twenty years when it was in a North German collection, still heavily patinated but not for sale, not even for 20,000 Deutschmark.

20 years later, he recognized it at once at Czerny's though it got cleaned meanwhile, and he got it extremely cheap because nobody would believe!

Best,
m

Katzbalgers are not my special interest, but I know how old blades should look. I was present at the pre auction viewing of this sale and have examined this Katzbalger. This blade was never heavily patinated before it was cleaned. It shows no wear, no laminations and no areas of significant pitting. Quite the contrary, the very light pitting is extremely uniform, typical for not genuine corrosion. The blade of the Katzbalger in question in # 45 looks much more genuine, inspite of the unusual many nicks.

Best

[fernando]

How about this one?
About 2 meters length.
Dated circa 1590; German origin.
Transitional ?

... (lousy) pictures allowed by owner.

.

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

Generally this looks fine to me although the form of the quillons seems somewhat unusual.

Best,
Michl

[Dmitry]

Quite right, Dmitry,

I would say the blade with its way too many nicks looks 'overaged', apart from the fact that the sectioning of the blade (lenticular cross section) is not corrrect and the overall length is too short.

Best,
Michael

The crescents on the blade don't look to inspiring either. The dozens of nicks on the blade were supposed to make it look like a battle weapon, I guess. :rolleyes:

[Matchlock]

Exactly, Dmitry,

And to 'prove' the 'great age' of the piece! ;)

m

[cornelistromp]

Quite right, Dmitry,

I would say the blade with its way too many nicks looks 'overaged', apart from the fact that the sectioning of the blade (lenticular cross section) is not corrrect and the overall length is too short.

Best,
Michael




The crescents on the blade don't look to inspiring either. The dozens of nicks on the blade were supposed to make it look like a battle weapon, I guess. :rolleyes:

Gentlemen, a small side-note. stand apart from the weapon of course.

a lenticular cross section is possible on katzbalgers in the 16thC , it even came on early medieval swords.

best,

for more twohanders please see;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10095&highlight=twohander

[cornelistromp]

How about this one?
About 2 meters length.
Dated circa 1590; German origin.
Transitional ?

... (lousy) pictures allowed by owner.

.

@Fernando beautiful sword, thanks.

there is a possibility that the pas d'ane/donkey hoof is removed, in it's working life?, see pictures of the 2-handed swords for an almost identical sword, image the sword in the bottom center.


@Michael, the quillon form is quite rare but not so unusual, see swords form Landeszeughaus graz for example.

best,

[Matchlock]

a lenticular cross section is possible on katzbalgers in the 16thC , it even came on early medieval swords.

Hi Jasper,

I learned from my collector friend that original Katzbalgers never hat lenticular cross sections.

Of course I respect your differing opinion. Nobody's perfect, after all! ;)

m


.

[Matchlock]

@Fernando beautiful sword, thanks.

there is a possibility that the pas d'ane/donkey hoof is removed, in it's working life?, see pictures of the 2-handed swords for an almost identical sword, image the sword in the bottom center.


@Michael, the quillon form is quite rare but not so unusual, see swords form Landeszeughaus graz for example.

best,


Perfect instance, Jasper,

Thank you so much!

I almost ooverlooked those Styrian types.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

... there is a possibility that the pas d'ane/donkey hoof is removed, in it's working life?, see pictures of the 2-handed swords for an almost identical sword, image the sword in the bottom center. ...
Very good and attentive comparison, Jasper.
I will remember checking for any pas d'ane vestigial signs when i revisit the place where it is exposed.

[cornelistromp]

Hi Jasper,

I learned from my collector friend that original Katzbalgers never hat lenticular cross sections.

Of course I respect your differing opinion. Nobody's perfect, after all! ;)

m


.
Hi Michael,
such a statement has only value if he has seen them all, the katzbalgers ever made.
you're right nobody is perfect.

FE the two-hand Landsknecht Sword of katzbalger type, you posted before, has a lenticular blade

best,

[Matchlock]

Right, Jasper,


I guess I should have been more precise and added that 'lenticular baldes without any fullers' are basically suspect.
This fine hand-and-half sword has a central fuller.

I do not think one must have seen virtually all existing specimen in order to render a basic general statement. If this were so nobody could make any statement.
I have always believed that understanding the characteristic main basis of a certain style of arms should be sufficient to judge with a high degree of certainty what to declare to be 'characteristic' or 'typical' and what not.

Possible exceptions to any rule must be taken consideration though and for granted. Otherwise knowledge and any kind of expertise would be invaluable.

The main problem is that is virtually not possible to quote all these prerequisites each time when giving a statement; they should go without saying.


Best,
m

[cornelistromp]

Hi michael,

Thanks for the explanation, however Iam very sorry but I can not agree with the statement of your friend;
in post 37 of this thread , I placed some katzbalgers from various museums in Europe (the katzbalger of Lee disregarded for this moment).
They are all authentic, without fuller and without ricasso and of lenticular cross section.

The most attractive among them, I find the katzbalger in the Solingen klingen Museum.

best,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

I am sorry to say that since at least 1968, the weaponry community has agreed that both these Solingen 'Katzbalgers' are composite pieces.

The first, with a hilt of characterisic form, is clearly the better or the two and the blade, typically staged and fullered (one of the main criteria I pointed out) may have been shortened (overall length only 78 cm); the 1968 catalog by Dr. Heinz R. Uhlemann points out that this type of sword is commonly forged (top three attachments).

The second is commonly agreed to be a crude 19th/20th c. fake, way too short, but reusing an authentic and finely caved pommel of ca. 1520 in the shape of a bearded Landsknecht's head. Only the measurements of the pommel are given, the remainder is neglected.
I realize your command of German is good, so the translation of the description by Uhlemann is for the rest of the community:
'The original, archetypically iron-carved pommel is part of a Landsknecht sword which is suspicious in all its remaining parts.'
(Kostbare Blankwaffen aus dem Deutschen Klingenmuseum Solingen, 1968, p. 46.)

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

yes I am familiar with this literature, the only DKM forgeries now with 100% certainty to be allotted,in this case to the workshop of Anton Konrad, are a dresden reiter degen and a medieval ceremonial sword.

The Katzbalger with the beautiful chiseled pommel is defined by Uhlemann as suspicious, but here the status left with the last publication before his retirement.
Both of them I've seen and both I find convincing enough, with the science of 1968 more atypical weapons were classified as fakes.

or you may have more recent results of research which I am not aware of?
I have no further written information about the other katzbalger, do you have something available? (from the weaponry community?)

kind regards,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,


There seem to be diverting criteria of what to define as characteristic and original; this not a problem at all, just normal among experts and it makes discussions all the more worth while. Otherwise weaponry would come to standstill.

No, to my knowledge no other publiations have been dedicated to the Solingen Katzbalgers since the 1980's, the time when Haedecke was in charge.


Best,
m

[cornelistromp]

hi Michael,

the first Katzbalger is dated by Uhlemann 1530 in kosbare blankwaffen (1968), in 1991, this same katzbalger is dated by Haedeke around 1550 in "Fuhrer durch die Sammlungen DKM" ". there is no mentioning whatsoever in either publication of any composite piece or shortened blade.
furthermore the length of 78cm is very acceptable for a Katzbalger,fe compare JP Puype, Arms and Armour of knights and Landknechts, katzbalger no 39 and no 40, resp. 82 cm and 80cm.
This blade shape is so specific that it must be designed for a/this -balger,
where did you find the information that these katzbalger is either a composite or that the blade has been shortened?

best,

[Matchlock]

In general, weapons, like architecture and all kinds of artwork, followed the characteristic proportions of their respective period:

-Gothic period: long, 'tall' and slender, and fluted (like the lofty Gothic steeples)

- Renaissance: relatively short and 'stout', multi-staged and flued, like architectural columns and candlesticks; of a Katzbalger, an overall length of ca. 90-93 cm is typical and average. No staging at all in alledged 'period' barrels, grips or blades is highly unusual and suspect

- Baroque: in the early years of the period, notably longer and more slender than the Renaissance types, narrowing down from the 1630's


To my friend and me, the most typical Katzbalgers showing all characteristic criteria are the two Berlin samples attached. I have exerienced the same with early firearms, and almost without any exemption to the rule.
As I have stated several times, these criteria are hard to convey.
The got to be 'grasped'.


And believe me: there are discussions taking place between experts without being published.


Btw, I'afraid we're in the wrong thread ...


m

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

each piece is unique, not mass production made ​​within a tolerance of characteristics , produced over a wide area and time and so must be judged individually so general rules have little use here.

for example the 90cm:where did you get the 90cm from, is this is an average of ?!? katzbalgers ?it has no function in the assessment of an individual piece.

Moreover, the upper katzbalger from Berlin has the same allover length as the one under discussion, in the DKM, namely 79cm.

this length is acceptable, for me it is unlikely that the katzbalger of DKM is shortened.

I agree we are of topic here!

regards,

[Matchlock]

Jasper,

Please do talk to any arts historian specialized in Gothic and Renaissance arts and crafts (not weaponry); he will confirm the proportional rule.
It is, among others, due to this rule that we intuitively recognize a period object.

m

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

Of course I know how it works, but to compare proportions and style characteristics is only used as there is little comparative data available.

to 'test" Katzbalgers with the 2 katzbalgers from europeische hieb und stich waffen (published by Mueller / Kolling / platow) is far too limited. The two from Berlin are just one of many katzbalger manifestations, as you can clearly see on the many landsknecht images you have posted.

I tried to indicate the borders of this weapon, a katzbalger has to meet all following three point of the definition.

first the word katzbalger;
Schnieder1957, according to Seitz, the mercenaries used instead of a scabbard a cat's skin sheath, they had the ability to stab the sword quickly without pulling the sword from its sheath.
This seems unlikely since there are many 16thC images where a scabbard can be seen.

Another theory is that the word katzbalger comes from how cats fight, (wie katzen balgen) cats fight like mercenaries in close combat.

most likely is the theory of JP Puype in Arms and Armour of knights and landsknechts, page 152: The etymology of the german name katzbalger is unclear but there is consensus that balger comes from the middle high German verb balgen, meaning to brawl, whereas the word KATZ(cat) might be a corruption of KURZ(short). Nonetheless there are also katzbalgers with longer blades apparently worn by mounted landsknecht officers.



then the definition;
to my understanding, a katzbalger must meet all 3 of the following criteria;

1. Sword of the landsknecht(infantry) with a horizontal or S- or 8-curved guard. (cf. Seitz blankwaffen P173, puype p152)

2. a broad straight mainly two edged blade, in the first place used for cutting and slashing blows and not for stabbing, in most cases with a rounded tip.

3.basic hilt form;The speading end of the grip is made ​​of metal and no true pommel exists, alternatively hilt subform; the grip ends with a pommel or in a cap, fitting down over it. (norman1980 hilt3 p66 )


A 16thC estoc with an 8 shaped guard is not a Katzbalger because it does not meet 1 and 2 of the definition; not a landsknecht infantry weapon and the wrong type of blade not suitable for close combat.

best,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,


I am with you on most of your points; concerning a few others I still differ, which however, as I wrote, is absolutely OK in my eyes.

I regret not being able to produce more striking facts, or add further substantial stuff, the way I hopefully could if this discussion was on firearms.

Therefore I suggest leaving the topic at this point, mutually respecting the good points that I feel have been made by either side. ;)


Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

thanks for the interesting discussion, but I do not expect that soon I would enter such a discussion with you about early firearms. :)

mit freundlichem Gruss,
Jasper

[Matchlock]

Two-handed processional swords, late 16th c., including flambergs, on exhibition in the Imperial Castle (Kaiserburg) Nuremberg; inaptly presented against a woodcut of early-16th c. date depicting much earlier Landsknecht swords.

m

[sioume]

Hello all,

I am rather a tenderfoot here and still a novice in collecting swords but I just wish to add something to this very interesting thread.

Regarding Jean Marc's swords the discussion focus about smith's marks, shape of blades, ....this to identify origin and authenticity.
So as a tenderfoot I ask a question...Does studying marks is enough in that case?

I learned that the best way to identify the authenticity of a sword is to focus first on the patina and mainly on the remaining rust. How rust is, lamination, colors...? and I am surprised that this subject has not been touched on.
Same thing with how the iron was worked, forged.
Isn't it easier to counterfeit hallmarks than a blade and its patina?

If anyone could give me an answer that will enlighten me.
Thanks a lot
Alain

[Matchlock]

For a wonderfully detailed painting of 1533 showing early-16th. c. two-handed swords, please see:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16116


Best,
Michael