2 Victorian Lances

[katana]

Hi,
just acquired 2 1868 pattern lances. Totally complete with their 'shoe' pieces, leather strap handles and even the leather protective sleeve/handle ....only missing their red/white pennants....I'm more than 'made up' :cool:

Markings on the lance head / 'shoe' are faint but have a crown with 'E' below ....I'm assuming an 'Enfield' armoury mark ....a few numbers '94 and '97 ...so assuming they were re-issued 1894 and 1897.

However, the bamboo shafts are also stamped ... with a crown, 73 and 'E' ....1873 ? if so only 5 years from the pattern's first issue.

On one lance the head and shoe have 'T P' marked ......no idea as to reason.

Please any info, comments or discussions on Lances/ Lancers gratefully welcome...

As a footnote ......if I got one more lance would I be a freelance ???? :D :rolleyes:

Kind Regards
David

[Jim McDougall]

OK freelance :) !!! LOL!!!
These are beauties and hard to find, nicely done. I'll get some detail a little later, I know Ive got an article here somewhere in the bookmobile.
All the best,
Jim

[katana]

OK freelance :) !!! LOL!!!
These are beauties and hard to find, nicely done. I'll get some detail a little later, I know Ive got an article here somewhere in the bookmobile.
All the best,
Jim


Hi Jim :) ,
thank you very much Jim, look forward to your insights ... I am extremely pleased to have these ..... originally described as 'African spears'....my hope is that these lances were brought back from Africa (Zulu wars or the Boer war ) and that is where the mistake originated .... unfortunately no proof :(
On Stefan's website (Ashoka), he mentions the use of the 1868 lance during the Zulu wars so if anyone has any info on this it will be greatly appreciated.

All the best
David

[Rick]

Oh, those are sweet !
Congratulations .

[Gavin Nugent]

Congrats,

Very nice and very very very good order.

I too recently bought 4 of these too, some loop straps intact, some broken one end, others with blue and white banners attached at the spear point.

Mine came with a group of short stabbing spears from Africa, perhaps the blue and white banners on mine can offer some insight to an African campaign....I look forward to what the professor comes back with....Scottish regiment perhaps :shrug:

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

A quick search turned up the following for blue and white;

3rd Cavalry
Blue koorta with scarlet facings
Dark Blue turban
Red sash
Yellow trousers
Blue over white lance pennon

This dates from british India 1857 records so not likely for mine....

[Jim McDougall]

Hi David,
After hours of 'excavations' here in the bookmobile, Ive plowed through everything I could find on British lances. Found the article I was looking for "The British Lance" by J.D. Chown (Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting, Vol.7 #3, 1974, pp.97-102) but lacks detail, simply specs on patterns. More date found in "Sword, Lance and Bayonet" C.Ffoulkes & E.C.Hopkinson 1938 (repr. 1967). Apparantly earlier lances had langets with attachment screws on both head and foot (butt) intil the 1868 pattern (like yours) where these were affixed with shellac to the shaft (Ffoulkes & Hopkinson p.106).

The 1868 pattern apparantly also called for a male bamboo shaft, which was sometimes difficult to obtain to meet standards with some cases of returning to ash shafts. The M1868 remained the same into later years, but in 1885 the shafts were ash and that became the pattern officially, with the furniture basically the same. This brings in some confusion as we know ash was sometimes substituted on the M1868, while the 1885 was strictly ash.
An experimental pattern in 1895 has long head socket and three slotted holes to affix pennon, but did not become officially adopted in British units. I have seen these however on Indian units' lances from WWI.

The markings are interesting and I think the 'TP' markings possibly have to do with sizes in the sockets for adapting to variations in the bamboo size, there were apparantly 7 head sizes and 4 shoe sizes. I thought there might be possibility that the 'T' was poorly stamped 'I' which would suggest India pattern, but that seems unlikely as the shoes are clearly not that, and the 'E' markings to me of course suggest Enfield Small Arms Factory. The crown and the number '73' (probably year of production) also strongly take away from the India possibility.

While there are no issue marks to regiment, it would seem if 1873 is the production or assembly year, these could have been at least of the type used by the 17th lancers who were sent to South Africa in 1880. They arrived to the area of Rorkes Drift around May, 1880 and on July 4, 1880 near White Umvolosi River near Royal Kraal at Ulundi they charged Zulu warriors at the battle called Ulundi.
In the 2nd Boer War (1899-1902) the 16th lancers were with Lord Roberts at Praetoria and are seen with these type lances in photos. The lance was used by British line regiments in combat was by the 5th lancers at Elandslaagle in South Africa at beginning of 2nd Boer War.

While the lance was officially abolished in 1903 it was somehow reinstated in 1909 until 1927. The lance was used effectively by Indian cavalry regiments in various campaigns and in Palestine in WWI, as well as by British units at Moy (28Aug1914) and Marne (Sept.1914).

The lance is still used by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in their drill performances, and I will never forget seeing one of those some years ago.

I will also never forget when I got my first pair of lances many years ago. I had won them in an overseas auction and when called by customs in Los Angeles to notify me of thier arrival I was so excited I roared off to the airport some 55 miles away without thinking of logistics. I was driving a 1969 Corvette with T tops, so of course these 9 ft.lances were sticking into the air as I 'charged' down the 405 freeway!!! I got the attention of the Highway Patrol as the bewildered officer could not resist asking what these 'spears' were doing sticking out of my car. Luckily he had a sense of humor and off I went :)

Anyway, I think yours are pattern 1868 as noted, the 73 production year most likely at Enfield, could well have gone to South Africa in either of the instances mentioned or both, but unclear on absence of regimental marks.
Whatever the case....extremely nice!!!!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

A quick search turned up the following for blue and white;

3rd Cavalry
Blue koorta with scarlet facings
Dark Blue turban
Red sash
Yellow trousers
Blue over white lance pennon

This dates from british India 1857 records so not likely for mine....


Just saw this, excellent work there Gav!!! As far as Ive known British units even native cavalry used red and white pennons, except 3rd Bengal Lancers which used blue and yellow in later years of 19th century.

Any pics of your lances?

All the best,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

Just saw this, excellent work there Gav!!! As far as Ive known British units even native cavalry used red and white pennons, except 3rd Bengal Lancers which used blue and yellow in later years of 19th century.

Any pics of your lances?

All the best,
Jim

Thanks Jim. Unfortunately they are in storage until the end of Feb at latest but I'll bring them to the table then.

Gav

[katana]

Thank you for all the replies and the congrats Rick ;)

Gav :) , I would also like to see pictures of your lances when they are 'available' :) I never knew that there were blue/white pennants in the British Army....I thought all were red and white

Jim :) ,
thank you for the back ground ...... the vision of you in 'jousting mode' on a freeway is now stuck in my head ......I do hope you were sporting your pith helmet to complete the 'ensemble' ...... :D as some of the pictures show below......

These lances were used in many conflicts in Africa ....as well as India. The Madhist uprising also saw the Lancers put to use. As far as I can tell the Lancers at the tail end of the 19th C were rarely used in European conflicts perhaps, due to the effectiveness of long range firearms....but in colonial engagements they continued to flourish.

Kind Regards David

A few pics gleamed from the web......

[Iain]

Really neat images David, I wasn't familiar with the use of the lancers in the colonies. Of course congratulations are in order for the lances as well! Really fine looking pieces and amazing to get them intact with the straps.

Fascinating subject, please keep posting more info guys. :)

[Jim McDougall]

Great pics David! and I actually did have a pith helmet but wasnt wearing it that day in the vette:) I recall my wife once retorting as I wanted to watch 'Gunga Din' for the zillionth time, "OK, but this time dont wear the helmet, you're scaring the cats!" :)

I think one of the biggest confusions in lances are the ever present 'pig sticking' or 'tent pegging' lances which were heavily in use during the Raj.
These are typically shorter and have a heavy lead weight as the shoe. The head is different as well. These examples seem far more common and often misperceived as they are very close to the combat lances in appearance, especially those without the weighted shoe. I recall getting a pair of these back then and having no idea what the heck was up with the huge lead ball at the base.

While the lance was used in numerous colonial situations, it seems it was frowned upon in many cases not only from the standpoint of the advent of repeating firearms, but that it was cumbersome and somewhat dangerous in close quarters combat and melee. The longest standing use seems to have been with the native cavalry regiments from India, the fabled 'Bengal Lancers', who continued use well through the 1930s. I have mentioned before my great visit with Brigadier Francis Ingall (author of "Last of the Bengal Lancers") before his passing in 1992, and his great tales of one of the last cavalry charges on the plains in Khyber Agency in the 1930s.

In research on the lance many years ago I learned that at least one cavalry regiment in Pennsylvania was outfitted as a lancer regiment (I think it was Rush's lancers) in the Civil War period. I cannot recall finding these ever being used in combat, and mostly it sounds like a pretty unfortunate outcome with this experimental situation. As poorly trained as cavalry was with the sword, I can imagine how the lance must have fared. I just thought it an interesting note as we review some lance history.

I had a couple of books written by a Polish lancer in WWI, and in WWI the German uhlans used a fully metal lance of over 10 feet long. The Polish lancers in Napoleons service were quite the inspiration for lancer units in Europe. I recall reading these were much feared and despised as death from these lance wounds was particularly gruesome, and when captured the lancers were seldom given quarter and killed on the spot.

Gav, thanks very much for more on your lances, and I still hope to find something somewhere on the color pairing on lance pennons. Trying to recall work I did on this topic (around three decades ago :) it seems there were of course colors to various countries, I think Germany was black & white, and so on. The blue and yellow for 3rd Bengal Lancers was it seems the single variationin among British cavalry.
In South Africa there were however native regimental contingents much as in India such as Natal Mounted Rifles if I recall correctly, but unsure whether any might have been outfitted as lancers. Perhaps some look into material on the two Boer wars might reveal units which might have that prospective.

Thanks very much guys for sharing these, and the boost down memory lane in my case! :)

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Some of the Lancer 'actions' in Africa late 19thC....

The 17th....

".........In India, the 17th became the 17th Regiment of Lancers. When, in 1876, it gained Prince George, Duke of Cambridge as its Colonel-in-Chief, the regiment adopted the title of the 17th (The Duke of Cambridge's Own) Lancers.

The 17th was sent to Natal Colony for the Zulu War. On 4 July 1879, the 17th fought at the Battle of Ulundi under Sir Drury Curzon Drury-Lowe. The 17th was posted inside a large British infantry square during the attack by the Zulu Army, which had surrounded the British. When the attack appeared to be wavering, the 17th Lancers were ordered to advance. Their charge routed the warriors with heavy loss. The battle proved to be decisive. The 17th returned to India the same year, remaining there until about 1890 when they returned home........"

The 5th Royal Irish...

"....A small detachment was sent to serve with the Heavy Camel Corps during the Egyptian Campaign, where they suffered some casualties at Abu Klea. It was also here that Private G. H. Austin was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal for bravery under fire.
Also at this time they provided two squadrons of cavalry for the Gordon Relief Force, along with the 20th hussars and 9th Bengal Cavalry. It was here while fighting Osman Dinga that they saw action at Suakin on the Red Sea, Hasheen and Tamai. It was during the actions at Suakin where a full charge with lances routed the opposing Dervishes that the regiment was awarded the battle honour "Suakin 1885". The two squadrons were awarded the Egyptian Medal with clasps "Suakin 1885" and "Toftek"......"

12th (Prince of Wales's Royal ) Lancers (Battle honours)

"... Egypt, Salamanca, Peninsula, Waterloo, Punniar, Sobraon, Chillianwallah, Goojerat, Punjaub, South Africa 1851-53, Sevastopol, Delhi 1857, Lucknow, Central India, Charasiah, Kabul 1878, Kandahar 1880, Afghanistan 1878-80, Modder River, Relief of Kimberley, Paardeberg, South Africa 1899-1902....."

Battle of Omdurman....

".....The British light cavalry regiment, the 21st Lancers, was sent ahead to clear the plain to Omdurman. They had a tough time of it. The 400-strong regiment attacked what they thought were only a few hundred dervishes, but in fact there were 2,500 infantry hidden behind them in a depression. After a fierce clash the Lancers drove them back (resulting in three Victoria Crosses being awarded)....."

[katana]

Great pics David! and I actually did have a pith helmet but wasnt wearing it that day in the vette:) I recall my wife once retorting as I wanted to watch 'Gunga Din' for the zillionth time, "OK, but this time dont wear the helmet, you're scaring the cats!" :)

All the best,
Jim


Hi Jim,
yes I remembered you had one :) ....also, wasn't there something about a tulwar, a ceiling fan and a lot of Drambuie :D :eek: :cool:

All the best
David

[Jim McDougall]

JUDL!!!
Thanks David, you remembered my Drambuie story :)
Outstanding detail on the unit participations of these regiments, and really gives great perspective on the many places these types of lances might have seen action. Careful, or you will end up a crazed, obsessive researcher rolling around in a Winnebago like me :) I am writing now amid sheaves of scribbled notes and books in the bookmobile.

Im not sure of the provenance on these lances of yours from Stefan (Ashoka) but if they are indeed from Africa, as the group from Gav is, perhaps I may have some interesting findings.
The unusual color pennon on one of Gavs lances prompted me to loom further into native regiments which might have equipped with lances, and found that there were Australian regiments of cavalry there during Boer Wars as well. Actually, these ANZAC units are probably some of the most colorful representations of cavalry during these times.

In Australia in 1885 a volunteer cavalry regiment which ultimately became the New South Wales Lancers was formed, originally known as the Hunter River cavalry regiment. From some of the data on the NSW lancers online, it appears that they were appointed officially as lancers in 1894. In 1897 some squadrons were sent to participate in Queen Victorias jubilee event.
They were posted as well to South Africa, and are noted to have fought with lances in numerous engagements 1899-1902 in the 2nd Boer War.

While this probably does not address the variant colored pennon in Gavs group, as I believe Australian units also had the British red and white, it does seem to show admittedly tenuous connection to the dates you note from your lances.

All the best,
Jim

[broadaxe]

My city, Haifa, was captured from the Ottoman turks at the end of WWI, 23th September 1918, by the 16th Indian cavalry brigade, Jodhpur & Mysore lancers. 1st photo is a very famous one, showing the Indian lancers as they march into Haifa via Jaffa Road, on that very day. 2nd photo shows Indian lancers somewhere else at the end of WWI - watch the cheering crowd - I think this is Tel-Aviv. 3rd photo shows British lancers on ceremonial guard in Haifa, probably 1920's. Last photo shows 2008 Australian lancers during the declaration of the Australian cavalry Park in Beersheba, captured from the Ottomans by ANZAC cavalry on 31st October, 1917.

[Jim McDougall]

My city, Haifa, was captured from the Ottoman turks at the end of WWI, 23th September 1918, by the 16th Indian cavalry brigade, Jodhpur & Mysore lancers. 1st photo is a very famous one, showing the Indian lancers as they march into Haifa via Jaffa Road, on that very day. 2nd photo shows Indian lancers somewhere else at the end of WWI - watch the cheering crowd - I think this is Tel-Aviv. 3rd photo shows British lancers on ceremonial guard in Haifa, probably 1920's. Last photo shows 2008 Australian lancers during the declaration of the Australian cavalry Park in Beersheba, captured from the Ottomans by ANZAC cavalry on 31st October, 1917.

Absolutely fantastic photos and info!!! Thank you for adding these, which add perfect dimension to our discussion on these :)

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Broadaxe :) ,
thanks for the great images and info.


It seems that during the Victorian era there were only 4 lancer regiments ...

The 5th Royal Irish
The 12th (Prince of Wales's Royal )
The 17th
The 21st

All saw action in Africa ....and most of these units saw action in India.

As most of the armoury markings etc are quite rubbed ...I will have to try and decipher those that are legible. I do not think the T.P is a badly struck I.P (India Pattern) however, if this is the case...I have read that consignments of British manufactured lances were sent to India for the use of the British Units, that seem to have been later marked I.P . (The 'standard' Indian Pattern butt has a larger ball/doughnut that is different to the British )

The male bamboo shaft was also considered superior to the Ash shafts ....and Ash was only used with the 1868 pattern if there was a shortage of suitable bamboo.

So its out with the magnifying glass.....

Regards David

[katana]

As best as I can make out, the markings on the lances are..

LANCE 1



SHAFT


E (approx 5mm high)

crown
75
E

crown
71
E

BUTT

crown
06
E

crown
K (?)

05 (approx 5mm) 90 (approx 5mm)

4 (perhaps size number)

POINT

T.P. (approx 5mm )

'3'

crown
71
E

crown (possibly, badly rubbed)
14


LANCE 2


SHAFT


crown
75
E


crown
73
E

17 (17th Lancers ??)

BUTT too much patination to see any markings


POINT

T.P.

??? ' 27

??? could be SRN or SQN :shrug:



Any suggestions as to the possible meanings of some of the markings gratefully received.....as is any other comments or information

Kind Regards David

[katana]

I recently contact the Lancer Museum requesting information on the various markings and they have kindly replied :cool:

"....... Thank you for your email. It seems to us that the '17' is a Regimental mark and would refer to the 17th Lancers. The small letters could be SQN and
refer to Squadron. '05' & '90' could be dates when repairs were undertaken.
'T.P.' could be TP for Troop and would be with a letter such as 'A' or 'B',
etc. ....."


Link to 17th Lancers ....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17th_Lancers

It would seem that these Lances may have seen / been at several historical battles :cool: :cool:

Best
David

[thinreadline]

I recently contact the Lancer Museum requesting information on the various markings and they have kindly replied :cool:

"....... Thank you for your email. It seems to us that the '17' is a Regimental mark and would refer to the 17th Lancers. The small letters could be SQN and
refer to Squadron. '05' & '90' could be dates when repairs were undertaken.
'T.P.' could be TP for Troop and would be with a letter such as 'A' or 'B',
etc. ....."


Link to 17th Lancers ....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17th_Lancers

It would seem that these Lances may have seen / been at several historical battles :cool: :cool:

Best
David


Hi there .. I hate to ruin the theory of the number between the Crown & E as being the date , but it is not. It is the Enfield Inspectors number . Each Inspector at Enfield had a personal number and when he was satisfied as to the serviceability of of piece of equipment , his number the plus crown & E ( for Enfield ) was stamped on it. It is possible to identify the names of the individual inspectors provided one has a date of manufacture of the item . British weapons of this period were always dated in the following fashion : '6/79' for June 1879 for example. Enfield Inspectors also checked equipment made by private contractors & forign manufacturers for Service use and indeed if the output was large enough would actually be based at the factory ... in this case although the Inspectors number would remain the same there would be no 'E' .. instead there would be another designated code letter for the factory eg 'B' BSA , 'X' London Small Arms, 'S' Solingen , 'L' Liege etc
Hope this helps .

[katana]

Hi there .. I hate to ruin the theory of the number between the Crown & E as being the date , but it is not. It is the Enfield Inspectors number . Each Inspector at Enfield had a personal number and when he was satisfied as to the serviceability of of piece of equipment , his number the plus crown & E ( for Enfield ) was stamped on it. It is possible to identify the names of the individual inspectors provided one has a date of manufacture of the item . Hope this helps .



Thanks Richmond,
no other clear markings are legible :( . However the fact that the "17" could indeed signify the 17th Lancers is :cool: It seems that conclusive dates are going to be difficult.

Kind Regards David

PS sorry for the late reply.

[thinreadline]

Thanks Richmond,
no other clear markings are legible :( . However the fact that the "17" could indeed signify the 17th Lancers is :cool: It seems that conclusive dates are going to be difficult.

Kind Regards David

PS sorry for the late reply.

Hi David.. a really useful book to have re such markings is 'THE BROAD ARROW' by Ian Skennerton .. it deals comprehensively with markings on weapons from Britain & the Commonwealth .

[katana]

Hi Richmond,
thank you for the suggestion. Would you know if each inspector had his own 'number' specific to each individual person .....that was subsequently not used by anyone else ....ever.
I'm just wondering whether some sort of dating could be discovered by checking inspector marks to their dates of employment ....obviously if the 'mark number' is 'transferrable' then it would be likely that several inspectors would have the same number and would make this more problematic.

Best
David

[Norman McCormick]

Hi David,
Here is another couple of lances for comparison. Total length 109 inches the central ferrule marked 14 B.L. presumably for the 14th Bengal Lancers.
Regards,
Norman.

[thinreadline]

Hi Richmond,
thank you for the suggestion. Would you know if each inspector had his own 'number' specific to each individual person .....that was subsequently not used by anyone else ....ever.
I'm just wondering whether some sort of dating could be discovered by checking inspector marks to their dates of employment ....obviously if the 'mark number' is 'transferrable' then it would be likely that several inspectors would have the same number and would make this more problematic.

Best
David
Hi David
Yes the no. was assigned to a particular inspector, but sadly only for the duration of his employment .. it was then reissued to the new incumbent. So no help there I am afraid .
Richmond

[katana]

Hi David,
Here is another couple of lances for comparison. Total length 109 inches the central ferrule marked 14 B.L. presumably for the 14th Bengal Lancers.
Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman :) ,
thanks for posting these......are they yours ? Interesting that they are 2-piece with a spigot/ferrule .....never seen this type before. Perhaps ceremonial as the 'joint' would generally be a weak point. The 'shoe' is a good example of the Indian Pattern. I do like the fact the pennans are attached.....may have to use a sewing machine :eek: and make up a couple for mine, only problem is that I am unsure as to the type of material used....probably the same as that used for flags and standards of the period.

Kind Regards David

[katana]

Hi David
Yes the no. was assigned to a particular inspector, but sadly only for the duration of his employment .. it was then reissued to the new incumbent. So no help there I am afraid .
Richmond


Hi Richmond,
thanks for the clarification, a little disappointing when the wear, tear and age (read, rust pitting) has hidden the markings/clues I seek

Kind Regards David

[Norman McCormick]

Hi David,
Not mine I'm afraid, old auction catalogue but I thought they would be of interest. The male part of the joint looks to have a sprung retaining piece so that it locks into the other so might not be such a weak joint as first appears.
My Regards,
Norman.

[laEspadaAncha]

Wow, I wish I had been browsing the European weapons forum a month ago when this thread was begun. Not that I would have been able to contribute much other than to share the following image(s) following an encounter I had with a close friend of the late CO who commanded of the 6th Bengal Lancers during their last charge, against Red Shirts and Afridis near the Khyber Pass in or around 1929-1930.

In addition to my temporary possession of the Brigadier's sleeved cloak, cap, and boots, he loaned me the book written by said Brigadier, the cover of which depicts said charge... interesting to note the absence of pennants on the lances in the photo - were the pennants only attached during parades?

[katana]

Hi Chris,
thanks for adding this :) facinating.

This recently was listed on eBay ..... would have loved to have got it ...but at that price :shrug:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140697746442?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

All the best
David

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi David,

My pleasure! :) And while I consulted with the Professor extensively on both the suite of items and the gentleman to whom they originally belonged, I just realized something of note:

While the artwork for the book cover illustrates the aforementioned charge in '29/'30, the lances shown have bamboo shafts...

Which raises the question about the continued use of older patterns in colonial regiments long after the migration to ash shafts as per Jim's research. :shrug:

Cheers,

Chris

[katana]

Hi David,

My pleasure! :) And while I consulted with the Professor extensively on both the suite of items and the gentleman to whom they originally belonged, I just realized something of note:

While the artwork for the book cover illustrates the aforementioned charge in '29/'30, the lances shown have bamboo shafts...

Which raises the question about the continued use of older patterns in colonial regiments long after the migration to ash shafts as per Jim's research. :shrug:

Cheers,

Chris



Hi Chris,
I believe regulations in the 'colonies' tended to be more relaxed and , probably even more so for the native units.

As to the pennon, I believe they were attached to the lance during battle. One of its functions was to absorb blood .....preventing it running down the shaft and making it slippery :eek:

All the best
David

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi Chris,
I believe regulations in the 'colonies' tended to be more relaxed and , probably even more so for the native units.

As to the pennon, I believe they were attached to the lance during battle. One of its functions was to absorb blood .....preventing it running down the shaft and making it slippery :eek:

All the best
David


With that in mind, IMO they don't - nor did - pay the dhobis enough! ;)

Then again, my non-frosted side cringes at all the clothes I've had laundered in India over the years that over time the dhobis turned into the same, washed-out shade of grey... :rolleyes:

Cheers,

Chris

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Chris for posting the cover of this wonderful book by the Brigadier!!! it brings back many fond memories (it seems I still owe you a photo, which I will get to in due course:) . As I have mentioned, I have handled the M1912 British officers sword he carried in that charge, which seems accurately represented in the painting though the bowl is not visible, but the scabbard mounts are correct. This leads me to believe that accuracy was keenly observed, and knowing the stickler the Brigadier was, I have no doubt such a detail as lance pennons would have been noted had they been present and incorrect, in our conversations.
While pennons did seem to be 'parade' oriented in the images I have seen of these Indian cavalry in WWI and of that period, I do believe they were indeed mounted on lances in combat. I had never heard the item about them serving the purpose of collecting blood, and would presume this idea may present along with the purpose of fullers in blades being 'blood gutters'. While sounding feasible perhaps in limited degree, these observations seem more contrived in my thinking.

I do know that pennons were indeed attached in combat with lances as per accounts of Polish lancers in the Napoleonic period, and that these pennons added dramatically to the sepsis of wounds by carrying this obviously contaminated material into them. The morbid agony of this typically mortal penetration was heightened by this factor as described in accounts I have seen, and as a result , lancers when captured were summarily killed rather than being held prisoner.
In the dramatic charge of the British 16th Lancers at Aliwal in India during the Sikh wars, after the battle the pennons of the troopers were so encrusted with blood in the aftermath, that it became a long held tradition for these lancers to 'crimp' thier pennons in remembrance. While the blood on the pennons was clearly of thier opponents, the observance was for the decimated ranks and men they lost in that charge.

As with many, if not most, colonial circumstances, yes often obsolete and surplus weapons and materials did continue almost anachronistically in these settings long beyond the period of familiar use in original context.
It seems most of the issues regarding the British lances was availability of male bamboo, and presumably in India there were more ready sources.
The durability of the lance pennons however, may not have been sufficient to keep them servicable in these frontier regions, and having them mounted in the case of this time period may have been considered superfluous. I think more concern was to the actual purpose of the lance rather than the traditional presence of these probably unreplaced items.

As to the materials used, as far as I know most pennons are made of the kind of bunting used in flags, however one lance I had in blue and yellow (3rd Skinners Horse) was made of a dyed almost burlap material.

All the best,
Jim

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi Jim,

It is of course my pleasure - I am happy to have been provided a context to share this book in the thread, and only wish I had seen it sooner... Of course, your invaluable input, information, and feedback went a long way towards helping me better appreciate this tangental 'brush' with the career of the Brigadier, and reading his book heightened my appreciation for the various regimental Lancers to such a degree that I would jump all over the opportunity to acquire a couple of these sharp and pointy 'history sticks.' ;)

Speaking of which, David, I don't think I made explicit mention of the fact I am envious! ;)

[katana]

Hi Jim :) ,
thank you for your observations and info. It is mentioned on various sites including the official Canadian Mounties site that the pennon absorbed blood .....I personally feel that this action was one of its function.
I believe that the pennon added several advantages....

The 'fluttering' pennon would be a distraction to the 'target' ....I'm reminded of the Chinese long spear which had ribbons attached to the shaft just below the head for this purpose. Although after some 'action' I would assume that the blood soaked material would cling to the shaft and render it 'useless' in this case

A very interesting point about infection, archers used to stick their arrows into the ground to promote tetanus infection in the wounds of their targets. Often clothing fragments were forced into the wounds created by musket balls, due to poor hygiene these fragments caused 'deep' infection. This effect was known and a few realised that fresh, clean clothing at the start of battle could lessen this problem. A contaminated pennon could indeed act as a biological 'delivery device'

I still feel that absorption of blood was important, the lance, during battle, would not always be carried horizontally, in the melee with horses and men tightly 'bunched', to gain manoeuvrability the lance would have to be raised vertically thus allowing blood to run down to the handle/hand. The slippery nature of fresh blood would be a problem.

Hi Chris :) ,
I am very lucky to have got these......they were advertised as African and the poor pictures only showed the upper bamboo shaft and the head. I immediately recognised these as British Lances ....others didn't...which was advantageous to me as few bid. It was only on collection that I even knew the lances were totally complete .....this grin :D does not adequately show my face, as I was returning home after collecting them.

Kind Regards David

[katana]

A recent documentary "War Horse", shed more light on the use of the lance during WW1. Early engagements tended to be suicidial due to the muddy terrain and the machine gun. A battle near the end of the war saw Canadian lancers/cavalry charge over open fields to attack a small wood, entrenched with Germans. This action was successful and was seen as many as a turning point in the war.

As the Germans tactically retreated towards Germany, the Lancer/Cavalry units became invalueable. As the retreating soldiers were now in open country as to opposed to the muddy, bomb shelled landscape of 'no mans land', the use of the horse allowed quick attacks ( hit and run) on the German units. The Lancers and Cavalry units became greatly feared, to the point that the infantry were quick to surrender when they were seen on the horizon.

David

[katana]

This just finished on eBay, earlier pattern British lance, extremely surprised at the final price.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fine-1846-British-Cavalry-Lance-Marked-Ash-Haft-/150776091569?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item231af493b1

[Dmitry]

It seems that during the Victorian era there were only 4 lancer regiments ...

The 5th Royal Irish
The 12th (Prince of Wales's Royal )
The 17th
The 21st

All saw action in Africa ....and most of these units saw action in India.



My guess is that they were deployed against poorly-armed and poorly-trained opponents for a reason. Why waste expensive ammunition and wear and tear of the firearms, when a lancer can pick as many running natives as he wishes?

I just bought a lot of three lances myself, haven't looked at them properly yet. This is a a useful thread.

[Jim McDougall]

This is a fascinating topic and glad to see it back up!
Actually seeing the bit about the pennons purpose being for soaking up blood seems kind of like so many other 'explanations' for features on weapons in the eventual 'lore' that evolves.

Interesting that the source for this is said to come from RCMP history. I recall many years ago seeing one of their music parade events with laces drill...it was spectacular. These forces are in themselves most impressive and quite historically profound.
However it seems that they really never used the lance but for performances from c. 1870s and to notably impress American Indian tribes etc. They may have had some use in WWI, but while the unit was certainly there, unclear on how much use the lance had.

In my opinion, the 'blood' element may well have come from the long tradition of the British 16th Lancers, who fought Sikh forces at Aliwal in 1846. Apparently after the battle the pennons of the lances were so blood soaked and encrusted, that the regiment traditionally crimped their pennons 16 times, in remembrance of that terrible battle.

It seems that the Canadians adopted the crimping of the pennons as they took to use of the lance in 1870s and later Queen Victoria took exception to their use of that feature in the pennons. Perhaps there had been some earlier connection between the 16th and the 5th who later formed part of the Canadian brigade in WWI as they were amalgamated together in 1922.
Whatever the case, the blood soaked pennons of Aliwal may be the source of this notion.

In actuality, the pennon has been suggested as more regimentally symbolic and for parade type purposes than such matters. In WWI, the German lancers left their pennons off during battle.

[Jim McDougall]

Continuing:
On the practical and physiological aspects of the lance.

These weapons, while psychologically terrifying in an advance formation of cavalry, their impact was quickly ended once in the melee. These were useless in the ensuing combat, and even to drop them and draw swords would put the rider in immediate vulnerability.
Because of the horrific wounding potential of the lance, these horsemen were despised and vehemently attacked, never receiving quarter.

They were cumbersome even in normal maneuvers, and could be dangerous to other riders in formation. During the Civil War, an attempt was made to duplicate European lancer regiments, I believe it was a Pennsylvania regt.
The results were horrendous, and the troopers were their own worst enemy.
I believe the idea was abandoned and the troops back to regular cavalry.

The idea of lances ended up with blood hampering their grip is no more likely than from a sword or any edged weapon. Lances had their grips about half way down the shaft, suggesting that their use was not as much a full length penetration thrust, but more of a jabbing action. The idea was not to impale a victim on the lance, obviously rendering the rider weaponless or unhorsing him....but to inflict lacerating wounds at key locations.

At San Pascual, in California during the Mexican-American war, the dragoon forces attacked by Mexican lancers often had as many as 13 or more wounds. Actually they were unable to load their guns in the darkness and place the caps, while the Mexican lancers simply chose their targets . They used jabbing thrusts so as not to lose their weapons.

The notion of the pennon causing mortal sepsis by its entry into the wound is a valid observation, but penetration of that depth and with that pennon now an obstruction in retraction from the wound, something that probably led to some cavalry removing them prior to combat.

I think one of the most notable instances of lore about lances is the one about Polish lancer units attacking German tanks with these in WWII. This was pure propaganda, and while the unit was a lancer named unit, and they did have swords, they did not attack the tanks, especially not with lances.
They did use swords as German's exited disabled or stopped tanks though.
German Wehrmacht also had cavalry using sabres.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Lancers were somewhat despised by their enemies since the wounds inflicted by the lance were so horrific...thus falling off ones horse in a melee was a very bad place to be...as no quarter was given.
Here is some artwork ~The black and white is Elandslaagt in the Boer War..and the other is Omdurman. The lance head and base are of the style made by Wilkinson.

[kronckew]

the pennants were there not only to identify the regiment, but to prevent the over-penetration of the point, much like the cross bar on a boar spear. why they didn't just put a cross bar on them i do not know.

one of the last true cavalry charges, in early ww1, a group of british cavalry drew sabres & charged a group from a german uhlan, brits has swords, the germans had the steel lance. they were a new unit and apparently not well trained, they broke and ran, only being saved when the survivors managed to get behind a farmer's barbed wire fence that stopped the pursuing brits as the horses refused to jump it.

and the poles never charged tanks with their lances in ww2 as german propaganda suggested...they did successfully charge a complacent german encampment that hadn't posted proper sentries and did great damage to it, and retreated in good order when some armour turned up. their lances were back in HQ for parades, they used firearms (and sabres) and were used more as mounted infantry. there were just not enough of them, especially with no air cover, and the russians attacking from the other side to aid their german allies.

[Jim McDougall]

Wayne, your description of the myth about Polish lancers in WWII was much better described than mine!
The idea of the pennon serving as a deterrent for over penetration sounds plausible, but it is notable that the German uhlan units typically removed them from their lances.
Certainly there would seem to be a certain plausibility for unit recognition, however there were not that many lancer regiments so as to be confused in action. At Balaclava (1854), there was only one, in front as in battle order, the 17th Lancers.
Actually lancer units usually had more of a 'national' pennon color combination. The British used red and white (taken from the Napoleonic Polish lancers that inspired them); while others had different colors (Germany black & white). Lance pennons were not regimentally specific, while guidons were.

There were lances with the cross bars in the Spanish cavalry, 18th c.
The lance became the primary weapon used by horsemen in colonial New Spain in the frontiers of northern Mexico and the Spanish southwest. The reason for this was often described as because of the unreliability of the firearms and lack of powder. The Spaniards were adept in the use of the lance (with American Indians quickly adopting same).

The cross bar on boar spears and such hunting weapons was to prevent the animal from 'riding up' the shaft to its attacker in wounded fury, not to restrict penetration.
However over penetration is a notable problem with the lance as the lancer becomes instantly disarmed. This is why lances have the lanyard straps at center, as the lance is used at that stance in jabbing thrusts, rather than full tilt full penetration . At San Pascual in the Mexican American war, the Californio lancers destroyed an American dragoon column with lances, but the dragoons were essentially unarmed. Their paper cartridges had been dampened by rain, it was dark night, unfamiliar terrain, the mounts were spent, and they could not effectively place the caps in their guns in the dark.
Most received many shallow wounds, with many fatal, but gruesomely lingering deaths.

As has been noted, for these reasons, lancers were much despised, and never received quarter as in many cavalry cases others were.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Wilkinson made these lances..This is a copy of the inscription.

[Terry K]

Very Nice Items!

[kronckew]

just a tidbit: 'male bamboo' used for lances is a thicker stronger species than normal bamboo, comes from india/south east asia, and will not grow in the UK climate. (i know someone who has tried ;)). it's fairly rare in its native area as well. hence the occasional shortages and substitution of ash, the traditional european pole arm wood of choice.

[Richard G]

I understand lancers were also unpopular because of the ease with which they could wander among the dead and fallen and by simply leaning on their lance from horseback kill those too injured ti fight back. I think this cold-blooded killing from a relatively safe distance was regarded as verging on the cowardly. Snipers suffer from a similar prejudice.
Regards
Richard

[fernando]

Going back to lances themselves ;) .

[Jim McDougall]

Going back to lances themselves ;) .
Good idea Fernando.....pretty unpleasant thinking about what these weapons were used for.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I show a website video of how they practiced in Victorian times...Please see

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fcp_4rQPlU

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Ibrahiim,
It really is interesting to see how 'tent pegging' was used to increase skills with these weapons. While it seems that all manner of study of martial arts, fencing and exercise with swords is readily acceptable in discussions on those and various other edged weapons...the lance was apparently so disdained that it is deemed a reprehensible topic.

Yet lancer regiments were typically regarded in elite status, and the British cavalry after Waterloo chose to fashion select cavalry units to lancers, in honor and admiration of the Polish lancers in those campaigns. The red and white pennons on British lances were chosen in commemoration of the Polish national colors, also on their lances.

I recently watched the wonderful 1930s classic movie "Lives of a Bengal Lancer" with Gary Cooper starring. It is situated in the Northwest Frontier about a British lancers unit, and shows the elite status of these units and the pride they took in their skills with the lance. There were some great scenes of this tent pegging exercise. It is notable that these units were actually still in service in India at the time this movie was made.

British cavalrymen also hunted with lances after wild pigs, and these were somewhat shorter with heavy lead bulbs at the base.

It is interesting to note these kinds of variations which reveal the actual use intended, and how to identify which units might have carried the lances discussed. Sometimes the history associated with weapons may not be entirely P.C. however it remains just what it is, history.

[kronckew]

not PC, but i always like watching 'gunga din - 1939', especially the final battle scene at the temple. they do show in a a relatively non-gory way, the use of the lance in pursuit of a fleeing enemy (as well as the two gatlings carried on elephant back. my favourite part :)). sam jaffee as gunga din is not acceptable in these days...

[Jim McDougall]

Right on Wayne!!
"Gunga Din" was always one of my favorites too! and I cannot even count the times I watched it since I was a kid (was???).
One time (pre DVDs etc) and it was on late one night on TV and I wanted my wife to watch it with me...she said OK, but this time NO PITH HELMET!! Youre scarin' the cats!!!

Definitely no PCin those days, but the movies were fun.

[kronckew]

a remake might be cool, if they didn't us cgi. the PC luvvies would likely mess it all up tho. especially reading the poem at the end. they'd rewrite kipling and add a few dance scenes. and using real extras would drive up the costs...hard to find a trio that would match, let alone a good ugly gunga din.

(wear your pith helmet next time. the cats will get used to it.)

[Dmitry]

the pennants were there not only to identify the regiment, but to prevent the over-penetration of the point, much like the cross bar on a boar spear. why they didn't just put a cross bar on them i do not know.



I don't buy that. Going at 20mph, and encountering someone's rib cage is a stop enough. If pennons were of any use as an additional stop, the working life of a lancer would be quite brief, with dislocated shoulders and dismounted riders. I'll abstain from commenting on the cross bar for the same reasons.

[Dmitry]

Lancers were somewhat despised by their enemies since the wounds inflicted by the lance were so horrific...thus falling off ones horse in a melee was a very bad place to be...as no quarter was given.
If this were the case, then the artillerymen would probably be drawn and quartered, when captured. I think you are repeating a myth.

[fernando]

May i admit that i tend to fully agree with the essence of Dmitry's last posts.

In a another perspecive, i find it amazing to see how wide the amplex of discussions on any determined weapon may reach; as close to discuss Gunga Din (that his name ?) underwear colour ... if you guys know what i mean ;) .

BTW ... does it pass through your minds, english speaking guys, how many meanings there are for the PC initials ? :rolleyes:.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

No. Its a known fact that cavalry were despised for their lance tactics..How many references repeat this..Flopping off ones horse was very bad..in a melee...it was the end!! Not a myth for what its worth..but fair comment...

[Dmitry]

No. Its a known fact that cavalry were despised for their lance tactics..How many references repeat this..Flopping off ones horse was very bad..in a melee...it was the end!! Not a myth for what its worth..but fair comment...
I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt; which contemporary eyewitness sources are you relying upon?

[Jim McDougall]

May i admit that i tend to fully agree with the essence of Dmitry's last posts.

In a another perspecive, i find it amazing to see how wide the amplex of discussions on any determined weapon may reach; as close to discuss Gunga Din (that his name ?) underwear colour ... if you guys know what i mean ;) .

BTW ... does it pass through your minds, english speaking guys, how many meanings there are for the PC initials ? :rolleyes:.


Actually I mentioned the movie "Last of the Bengal Lancers" as it was a theme obviously referring to the use of the lance in British cavalry in India, which seemed to have some bearing on the discussion at hand. Wayne mentioned the movie "Gunga Din" not only because of the period objective, but because there were scenes in the movie that showed lances in use in the same theme. I don't recall any discussion of 'underwear' but as you have shown interest, Sam Jaffee was wearing a loincloth (as Gunga Din) in the movie.
The PC comment was I think simply to note the differences in the movie making etc. of today vs. the often licentious portrayals in movies of those times. I am always surprised at the awareness of all the people I communicate with in many countries who are sometimes more aware of such popularly used acronyms and buzz words than many people here in the U.S.

With the notes on lancers being quite despised, it was that it was thought less than honorable in combat to contact your opponent at a safe distance, as well as the horrifying prospect of being skewered on a pole. Also there were the realities of the often not immediately fatal wounds which carried debris from clothing (or even pennons) deep into the wounds bringing about fatal and lingering sepsis.
I will try to find my notes which were actually discussing 'the use of the lance' as well as circumstances surrounding those who used them.

One of the true reasons there were as many fatalities in the famed charge of the Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo in 1815 was that in the chaos which rather inherently results as the horsemen broke through the French redoubts, the Greys became scattered and unable to regroup. As the survivors scattered through the smoke and din, and officers lost among this, the French lancers were moving through these areas and with stunned riders or injured on the ground did dispatch many more of the Greys.

While not necessarily uncommon in battle, dispatching the wounded enemy, it is the thought of the lance having such dastardly connotation, which led to more disdain. The use of sword, knife or pistol in carrying out this common practice does not absolve the act regardless of weapon used.

It is most interesting to look at the historical perspectives concerning a certain weapon as often the manner of their use or the persons using them offer us clues in identifying them as well as often the period in use.

[Victrix]

I found the following on the perceived ruthlessness of lancers:

”In the memoirs of Waterloo, the French lancers, galloping at will over the battlefield, sending saber-armed cavalry fleeing before them, and calmly stopping to finish off the wounded without even having to dismount, appear as an image of horror. Wyndham of the Scots Grays saw the lancers pursuing British dragoons who had lost their mounts and were trying to save themselves on foot. He noted the ruthlessness of the lancers' pursuit and watched them cut their victims down. Some British cavalrymen on foot slipped in the mud and tried to ward off the lance blows with their hands but without much success.
At Waterloo Sir Ponsonby together with his adjutant, Major Reignolds made a dash to own line, and a French lancer quickly began pursuing them. While they were crossing a plowed field, Ponsonby's horse got stuck in the mud in an instant, the lancer was upon him. Ponsonby threw his saber away and surrendered. Reignolds came to his aid, but the lancer compelled both of them to dismount under the threat of his lance. At that moment, a small group of Scots Grays happened to pass a short distance away, saw the three, and galloped shouting in their direction with the idea of liberating Sir Ponsonby. "In a flash, the Frenchman killed the general and his brigade major with 2 blows of his lance, then boldly charged the oncoming dragoons striking down 3 in less than a minute. The others abandoned the combat, completely incapable of holding their own against the enemy's deadly weapon." (Barbero - "The Battle" p 163)”

http://www.napolun.com/mirror/web2.airmail.net/napoleon/cavalry_Napoleon.html

[Jim McDougall]

Victrix, I thank you so much for that most telling account. That is exactly the scenario I was thinking of in my description, but could not find the source in which I had it.
There are of course many myths in the lore of battle, but many of the described notions held by historians are well founded such as this case.

Artillery levied a heavy toll on other ranks in battle, but I have never heard of any specific animosity toward them by troops as they were overrun or in many cases captured. Usually when defeat was imminent, guns would be abandoned but not without being 'spiked' or rendered otherwise useless if possible.

There are many sides of the perspectives of combat, and no particular account can say exactly how matters were between combatants. In this case, a contemporary account is shown regarding the lancers which illustrates the disdain for them as described.

[Victrix]

Yes thank you Jim, the account does seem to support your notion. Callous but brave seems a good description of the lancers. Sticking down the poor unarmed General Ponsonby does not seem like good sport, although charging the numerically superior dragoons was undeniably brave.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Being a Lancer was fraught with danger and at the second battle of El Teb a particular danger was outlined here~

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_and_Second_Battles_of_El_Teb

Quote" After a brief artillery duel, the Mahdist guns were silenced, and the British advanced. The Mahdists hid in trenches to avoid incoming British rifle and artillery rounds, then rushed out in small groups of twenty to thirty warriors instead of the massive attack that was expected. Another tactic was to pretend to lie dead on the battlefield as British cavalry charged through, then, as the cavalry returned at a slower pace back through the ranks of the 'dead', the Mahdists would rise up and slit the hamstrings of the horses then proceed to kill the riders. At the top of the hill, a village had been fortified by the Mahdists, and here they resisted the most stubbornly. The British infantry had to clear the trenches with bayonets after which the fighting died down."Unquote.

[fernando]

...Actually I mentioned the movie "Last of the Bengal Lancers" as it was a theme obviously referring to the use of the lance in British cavalry in India, which seemed to have some bearing on the discussion at hand... Wayne mentioned the movie "Gunga Din" not only because of the period objective, but because there were scenes in the movie that showed lances in use in the same theme...
I don't recall such movie being exhibited over here, but i remember well one called "The Lives of a Bengal Lancer" here ran as "Lanceiros da India", with Gary Cooper (1935). I fail to remember if i managed to see it, potentialy by not being able to afford it or for being under age. So i ignore whether the name lancer was just their 'title' or if in fact they used lances on the field :o.

I don't recall any discussion of 'underwear' but as you have shown interest, Sam Jaffee was wearing a loincloth (as Gunga Din) in the movie...
What an entry Jim; one you would label as 'absolutely superb' ;). I take a note on such well documented Gunga's outer wear. I know that you mentioned it to be of my interest, but i believe you knew my reach was instead a screamingly distinct one; like hoping that this thread, resurrected from 2012, would not now conduct its colateral fait divers to something like 'The art of killing with a lance" :rolleyes: .

... The PC comment was I think simply to note the differences in the movie making etc. of today vs. the often licentious portrayals in movies of those times...
I knew what Wayne mean, as one. I was trying to mark a thinking out score in that, such acronym out there has several meanings, personal computer for one. But all in all my reach was to distract us from derailing from the lance subject per se to a (more) gory periphery. Any battle weapon and its user are intendedly meant to damage the enemy; but i take it that we are not here to compete on whether one is more critisizable or damnable than the other

... I am always surprised at the awareness of all the people I communicate with in many countries who are sometimes more aware of such popularly used acronyms and buzz words than many people here in the U.S. ...
Is that a true inferrement ?. To make it right about such assumption, one would have to make a comparison between peoples of similar cultural levels and not (like often) comprehending an illiterate from one side with a well informed from the other, a rather common comparison driving to fake conclusion. Certainly many of us are not aware that the "politically correct" term was a movement that gained populariry in America by the nineties. Notably these depictions were perhaps expanded in the times of Gunga Din (for one) to reafirm prejudice, but eventually nowadays, we keep seeing in the movies, scenes of similar impact but, on the contrary, as a manner to condemn them.
But i couldn't go without quoting a member who prefered to do it by PM, on grounds that he wouldn't wish to stir further the off topic pot, in that a good example of PC is "Johnny Depp playing tonto in the lone ranger, no matter how good he is in the role" :eek:.

Apparently there is not much (easily affordable) info on the web about Portuguese lances. In any case a rather resumed story, as the origin of lancers forces is more than well identified.
Avoiding to risk repeating how much has being said about this subject, i will here just upload the pennants timely used by Portuguese forces, minding that our Lancers units became the current Military Police.
Noteworthy that, the purpose of pennants in the midle ages was aledgedly that of both identifying the heraldic sign of their knights and impressing the adversary with their 'flaming' waves. This could be true or not, but surely less gory than its purpose being to soak them with the enemy's blood, a not so romantic approach :shrug:.

1 - 1833-1890
2 - 1890-1891
3 - 1891- actuality
4 - Military (army) Police since 1980.
5 - A lancer of the 'old' British 17th regiment, the emblem and motto adopted by the Portuguese 2nd. Lancers.

.

[kronckew]

i note the skull & crossed bones of no. 4 were used long before pirates (and johnny depp ;)) as a sign of death, and is frequently found on grave stones and markers in catacombs. i will assume there is nothing piratical about your police force's use of the decoration since 1980. it is used by an assortment of modern military units to signify ferocity.

i note from wiki' skull and crossbones entry that:

The 2nd Lancers Regiment of the Portuguese Army also use the skull and crossbones as symbol and "Death or Glory" as motto, as the regiment was raised by a former colonel of the British 17th Lancers.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Charge of the 16th Lancers at the Battle of Aliwal by Mark Churms.

The 16th Lancers were part of General Sir Harry Smith's army consisitng of the British and Bengali army of 12,000 men and 30 guns against the Sikh army of 30,000 men and 67 guns of Ranjodh Singh during the First Sikh War which was fought on the 28th January 1848 in the Punjab in the North West of India. This painting depicts the 16th Lancers which were part of Brigadier Macdowell's brigade consisitng of the 16th Queen's Lancers, 3rd Bengal Light Cavalry and 4th Bengal Irregular Cavalry. The 16th Lancers charged several times during the action, breaking a number of Sikh infantry squares and overrunning a battery of Sikh artillery. The Lancers are shown wearing over their chapkas the white cotton cover which had been adopted for service in the tropics.

[Jim McDougall]

Good response Fernando!!
My bad on that movie title, "Last of the Bengal Lancers" was actually the book title of my late friend, Brig. Francis Ingall, who wrote that book as his biography about his service in these units in the Khyber Agency in the 30s.

The Gary Cooper movies was indeed "Lives of a Bengal Lancer" which was if I recall another autobiography by a British officer in the same period and regions.

On the underwear, of course I knew what you meant using analogy and was just responding in that same vein. I also realize that the discussion had taken an unfortunate but often unavoidable course in recognizing certain aspects of the use of a weapon. While understandable that we should not dwell on these matters, for those of us who are more historians than collectors, we often must include perspectives that are not always pleasant.
Actually warfare itself is not pleasant, but we are studying weapons, so it is sometimes a necessary evil to put the good with the bad I guess.
You are right though, to try to minimize such details as possible.

The PC served well as a deviation, as I admit the topic was one encountered quite often in our pages, and always seems to get the editorial wheels grinding. Unfortunately, those kinds of topics usually end up with heated and conflicting results, even threads being closed.

The input on the lance pennons and detail toward Portuguese use is great! and the illustrations much appreciated. As you have noted, and as I have found in several sources, the pennon apparently did serve as an identifying element, contrary to what I had said in an earlier post. In certain cases there were separate units who had varied color combinations to specify themselves for reforming on maneuvers.
However, most of these lancer units seem to have used a nationally specific combination, such as black & white, Germany; red & white Poland (later adopted by England in recognition of the Polish ).

The notion of blood soaking cloth falls into the myth and lore category so often rampant in weapons study, and along with 'blood gutters' in sword blades, has in my view been thoroughly debunked.

Wayne, well noted about the skull and crossbones, a topic we have often covered in the many threads on pirates and their lore. As you have shown, this symbol goes back a long way into history, and was indeed used around burial places signifying of course death.
Actually the piratical connotation is believed to derive from the fact that in ships logs and rosters, a sailor when deceased had this symbol drawn next to his name. As many sailors became pirates, they recalled the practice, and considered themselves effectively 'outlaw' or 'dead to the world', thus the symbol for these brethren of the sea. Alternatively, the foreboding symbol of course signified death, or more accurately the 'no quarter' implication often flown by these pirates, previously signified by the 'red flag'.

The color red in signifying 'no quarter' was well known among Spanish forces as well, termed 'deguello' and accompanied by a musical durge (as seen in "The Alamo" movie). Perhaps the red color and addition of the skull and crossbones lent to the pennon choice seen here.

Ibrahiim, excellent image of the charge of the 16th Lancers at Aliwal. If I may momentarily deviate to certain significance of a 'gory' circumstance lending itself to history and thereby, tradition.
After this battle, there were many of these lances so encrusted with dried blood they were actually crimped. It became a custom of this unit to 'crimp' their pennons in honor of that battle. Years later, the custom was adopted by troopers of the RCMP in Canada, however was abandoned when Queen Victoria objected to their use of a hallowed tradition held by the British 16th Lancers.

[fernando]

... I will assume there is nothing piratical about your police force's use of the decoration since 1980. it is used by an assortment of modern military units to signify ferocity...
Currently an infantile taste, i must say :rolleyes:

... I note from wiki' skull and crossbones entry that:
The 2nd Lancers Regiment of the Portuguese Army also use the skull and crossbones as symbol and "Death or Glory" as motto, as the regiment was raised by a former colonel of the British 17th Lancers.
As mentioned above in pennant no. 5; and as i said, Portuguese (real) lancers units gave place to military police units, their barracks/units still being called of Lanceiros.

That guy in the right of your picture; was by then minister of Defence.

[fernando]

... You are right though, to try to minimize such details as possible ...
A difficult task for an arms historian, so i see ...

... The notion of blood soaking cloth falls into the myth and lore category so often rampant in weapons study, and along with 'blood gutters' in sword blades ...
...If I may momentarily deviate to certain significance of a 'gory' circumstance lending itself to history and thereby, tradition. After this battle, there were many of these lances so encrusted with dried blood they were actually crimped. It became a custom of this unit to 'crimp' their pennons in honor of that battle...
Haven't you already narrated this chapter in post #41 of this thread ;)

Take care :cool: .

[Jim McDougall]

Yup, sure did, but often the previous posts are overlooked, so reiterating is helpful, especially if a passage is necessary for a point.
You're right too, it is hard to be a historian in the world of collectors and dealers, and what I have come to understand as separate worlds.
Thanks again for the informative entries.

[asomotif]

Interesting thread.
Hope to add a lance to my collection some day.

Here is a picture I took at a demonstration last may 2017 at Huis Doorn (NL)

Best regards,
Willem

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The 16th Lancers at Aliwal.