Go on...show us your Choora!!

[Andy Stevens]

Hello all! We have a real love for the Afghan Choora and thought it would be interesting to have a thread specifically devoted to these often beatufully crafted weapons. It would be interesting to compare the styling and artistic elements encountered and try to pin point definite tribal affiliations. Does anybody know for instance where the pin studded hilts are manufactured? An afghan friend and former member of the Northern Alliance, told us that during his fighting days he saw very few older weapons carried, they being superseded by modern bayonets or bowie type affairs. In fact, our friend was genuinely interested in seeing some of our collected examples and was actually rather lacking in knowledge on such an historic element of his culture. So if you have a favourite old warrior, post a picture and give the spot light to these elegant and often overlooked weapons. We have started the ball rolling with a couple of our old blades, both we think date from the early 20thC.

[thinreadline]

Here is my only one ...

[CharlesS]

Here is one I picked up at a show about 5 years ago. Good quality throughout and a crystalline wootz blade.

[Rick]

Aren't these daggers called Pesh Kabz ? :confused:

I don't want to Karud this thread up, but this is as close as I have to a Choora . :o ;) :D

[Stan S.]

Here is mine:

[CharlesS]

Yes, I think this would be considered the Afghan version of a karud, or straight blade pesh kabz. I am not even sure "choora" is an operable Afghan term.

There is a rather famous story about Stone being shown knives from that part of the world and he heard and used the term "choora" which was not the name of a knife, but simply meant "next", as in "next example please".

I cannot confirm the story, but interesting.

[Stan S.]

There is a rather famous story about Stone being shown knives from that part of the world and he heard and used the term "choora" which was not the name of a knife, but simply meant "next", as in "next example please".


Actually, "choora" simply means a knife in Urdu or Punjabi (sorry, I don't remember which one). It is a pretty generic term and can be applied to a viriety of mid-sized cutting implements. There is also a "choori", which is a small(ish) knife and is a derivative of choora. A large knife (but smaller than a khyber or salawar yataghan, which is essentially a short sword) is called a "kard". I would venture a guess that any knife that is intended not only for fighting but also for various houeshold chores can be referred to as "choora".

[chregu]

Hello all together
my Choora.

greeting Chregu

[carlos]

Here are mines!! Bring back from Afghanistan by a friend. One with leather sheath, seems more older than other 2, from recent manufacture.
best regards
carlos

[kronckew]

mine: (top)
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/choora_pesh.jpg

more detail:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/choora/choora.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/choora/choora004.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/choora/choora003.jpg

[ariel]

Here is mine:


Stan,
Can you show close up pic of the chape? I am interested in it's decorative motives.
Thanks.

[ariel]

Yes, I think this would be considered the Afghan version of a karud, or straight blade pesh kabz.


Where did I read that the etymology of the word Karud is uncertain, to the point that it might just be an erroneous word, mis-heard by the europeans?
I checked Stone and Egerton, but could not find it. Dang! Alzheimer playing more games....

[Berkley]

My semi-relic doesn't look very imposing in such distinguished company, although it still retains the classic elements of the type. :o

[Rick]

None of the examples shown look very household or utilitarian, except in the line of killing or wounding that is ...

[Andy Stevens]

Blimey!! There are a lot of fine example out there! Feel free to post Karuds or even the big brother Khyber knifes. Has anybody a modern resin hilted example? We've seen a couple on Ebay, a new take on an old idea, but still interesting. Keep em coming!! :)

[thinreadline]

Here is a rather basic workaday example . Bone hilt and 40 cm long . I feel that it was a knife like this that Kipling had in mind when he wrote the lines :

'When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains'

.. rather than the more elegant pieces we have shown here !

[Andy Stevens]

Ah! Kipling....fine poetry and exceedingly good cakes ;) ! The old work horses are very welcome, its worth comparing the subtle differences between older and more modern examples, especially in the quality and decoration of the scabbards, some of which are just works of art in themselves. We've attached below three images of North Indian knifes, very workman like with re-enforced spines and pesh like overall appearance. All comments welcome. The top example we originally described as a pesh/choora but now we would call a Karud!

[Lew]

Here is one that I picked up a couple of years ago. The blade is wootz but I have no good close ups of it. :shrug:

[thinreadline]

Here is one that I picked up a couple of years ago. The blade is wootz but I have no good close ups of it. :shrug:

Very classy Lew , I like it.

[A.alnakkas]

These are mine.. Nothing fancy, but authentic I think.

[Lew]

I forgot this one which was forged from a file.

[thinreadline]

I forgot this one which id forged from a file.

You made this Lew ?

[Lew]

Sorry type O :o. Nope picked it up on ebay many years ago. You can still see the teeth from the file on the blade's surface.

[Stan S.]

Sorry type O :o. Nope picked it up on ebay many years ago. You can still see the teeth from the file on the blade's surface.

Where do you see the teeth? This thing has a mirror finish. Do you have any pictures showing thsi detail? I would love to see it :shrug:

[ariel]

Ah! Kipling....fine poetry and exceedingly good cakes ;) ! We've attached below three images of North Indian knifes, very workman like with re-enforced spines and pesh like overall appearance. All comments welcome. The top example we originally described as a pesh/choora but now we would call a Karud!


Aren't they so-called Kerala knives? Long way to Afghanistan :-)

[Andy Stevens]

Hi Ariel,
Glad somebody mentioned the Kerala knife; the guy we got this example from had several and had sourced them locally in Rajasthan, we later saw them described as Kerala knifes in one of Tirri's fine books, so not sure as to what they actually are. They certainly share some of the characteristics of the Pesh family, heavy blade, thick spine and multi segment hilts. :shrug: Hmm, just don't know!

[Stan S.]

Hi Ariel,
Glad somebody mentioned the Kerala knife; the guy we got this example from had several and had sourced them locally in Rajasthan, we later saw them described as Kerala knifes in one of Tirri's fine books, so not sure as to what they actually are. They certainly share some of the characteristics of the Pesh family, heavy blade, thick spine and multi segment hilts. :shrug: Hmm, just don't know!

Not to push ahead with my theory on the meaning of "choora" (as covered earlier in thsi thread) but if it holds to be true, a typical "kerala knife" is also a "choora" :cool:

[Lew]

Stan

a choora is a specific style of knife associated with certain tribes in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The kerala knife is associated with an area in the southwest coast of india. Even though they may look similar they really are two different animals and we need to differentiate between them.

[thinreadline]

Not to push ahead with my theory on the meaning of "choora" (as covered earlier in thsi thread) but if it holds to be true, a typical "kerala knife" is also a "choora" :cool:

And choora is also a set of bangles worn by Indian brides !

[Rick]

Wootz

[Stan S.]

And choora is also a set of bangles worn by Indian brides !

True. I could never understand why. They don't resemble a knife (or using the other theory the word "next" for that matter) :shrug:

[Lew]

Rick I think this is a karud from Uzbekistan?

[Rick]

Rick I think this is a karud from Uzbekistan?

Bokhara(sp?) yeh, Uzbekistan now .

Uzbek Icepick con Rhino . ;)

Variation on a theme . :D

[DaveA]

Early 20th C. The blade is 8 3/4 inches long. Horn grips. Wooden scabbard leather covered but some now missing, otherwise good condition. Overall, 13 inches long.

[Andy Stevens]

Hi Dave,
Thanks for posting another great looking dagger. We've had a few with these painted hilts and have often wondered when this style of decoration became popular and why? As ever all comments welcome and a big thanks to all who have shown there babies.

[Atlantia]

Nice examples gents. Shall we have similar threads for Pesh etc?

[Kurt]

Anyone who has seen one like this?
Best
Kurt

[Andy Stevens]

Hi Kurt,
Thats one very nice dagger, thanks for posting. Never seen one of that particular form, a real work of art. It seems that afghan weapons are rather popular!! A big thanks to all who have posted so far.

[TimW]

I recently acquired this lovely Choora. What strikes me is the ressemblance in decoration / built with some of the other daggers shown above. The workmanship on this knife is incredible. The carving of the blade, the embellishment on the spine of the blade, the intricate handle design... Let's say I am more than happy having recovered this beauty.

The handle is ivory (probably elephant), blade seems to be wootz. Sheath is wood covered with leather. The tip of the scabbard is reinforced with embellished brass / copper.

[Montino Bourbon]

I made the rosewood scabbard.

[chregu]

Hi
I am a little confused! Can someone explained the difference between, Choora, Karud or Pesh Kabz?
I have a friend who comes from Kabul, he simply called all daggers Pesh kabz, and all knives Kard!
even if my looking up in books, I always see other words! I have been collecting for 20 years, everything has a blade and always thought I knew the difference, descriptions of Hermann Historica, knives and daggers, 4 vols.
I'm confused!
I ask some help!! smile

1. Choora? the sheat jes, the Dagger no, Pesh kabz, The blade spine is not straight, the tip is pulled upward.
2. Pesh Kabz
3. Karud
4. Choora
5.picture its Hermann Historika Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen Kulturraum
6.and the last two are karela south India.

[Stan S.]

It is my understanding that all 3 terms: Choora, Karud/Kard, and Pesh kabz are used interchangebly and varry based on location and the primary language spoken there.

On a separate note, I did not know that Kerala knives were carried in pairs such as in the example above

[ariel]

Are we dealing with specific patterns of distinct weapons or just ethnic variations of the,- basically,- the same Pesh Kabz?

Hint: Karud and choora have identical blades but different handles. Karud comes mainly from Central Asia, India and some from Afghanistan. Choora, however, is pinpointed to the Mahsud tribe of the Khyber Pass.

[Marcus]

These are my two, of different eras. No one commented.

[Royston]

Some more (must have missed this thread first time around)

Roy

[estcrh]

It is my understanding that all 3 terms: Choora, Karud/Kard, and Pesh kabz are used interchangebly and varry based on location and the primary language spoken there.

Some notes from Artzi The ‘choora’ is a variant of the famous pesh-kabz and karud (the common name for a ‘pesh-kabz’ with straight blade) and a close relative to the Khayber sword. Its originate from the Khayber pass and used by the Mahsud people residing in this area. Its blade is very similar to that of the Karud knife: strong single edged with a ‘T’ shaped spine. They differ only in the shape of the hilt: The Choora usually has a pommel extending downward and the grip is composed of several Ivory or bone or horn sectors or a combination of all.

[ariel]

How do we date chooras?
Are there any examples firmly attributable to the 19th century or even earlier?

[Gavin Nugent]

Good Question Ariel.

Here is a nice old Wootz bladed Choora Ariel, how would you place this date wise?

Gavin

[ariel]

Gavin, I know full well that they were not signed or dated by and large. Otherwise I wouldn't have asked. But there are other ways, written sources, for example. And I do believe that experienced dealers do have a sense of age: materials, patination etc.
I have a feeling that a wootz blade or an ivory handle would be unlikely to be found on a choora made in, say, 1940:-)

You must have a copy of Egerton: Plate XIV, number 624.Is it a choora or not?
Egerton collected his samples during his short stay in India in the 1850s, if I remember.And he even specifically mentions a dagger called Ch'hurra , made in Khorasan, Kabul and Jellalabad: the last two located in the vicinity of the Khyber Pass and the first likely referring to the wootz examples, like yours.

Unless there is an iron-clad provenance, I would tentatively place your choora in the 19th century.

What do you think?

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Ariel,

It took me a while to spot the knife and sheath you note...madly thumbing through both the original and the reprint looking for a Choora hilt, I couldn't see it for looking.

The dagger offers little in detail but I'd agree, its a Choora. The sheath shows designs I'd place as Afghanistan, which is a help.

If I was shown this Choora I've shown, I'd say 19th century and to be honest, when I first saw it, I jumped at it thinking it was, not knowing its true qualities and age until I had it in hand.

This Choora is Dated 1903 (Thanks Lofty). It is signed to the grip strap and named too. (I now have a Russian silver hilted Shashka in the same native dress that this Choora is found in too, spoils of war no doubt.)

I am so glad you mention the wootz factor too. To me, this Choora, having a super fine wootz blade along with this date means two things, wootz was still alive and well in these hidden parts of the world through which there was still great trade in the day and many hidden secrets (Still today) or it is a rehilt of an old blade, which is possible but I am not convinced it is a rehilt of an old blade...I do not have notes at hand but there was written accounts of Gypsies in Central Asia during this later time who were master forgers...I might have mentioned the passage here in the past....20th century wootz manufacture leaves a lot of thoughts to ponder since it was considered a lost art.

So I am equally lost with an accurate date unless it has a pedigree or provenance.

Gavin :shrug: :shrug:

[ariel]

Hi Gavin,
Thanks for the speedy answer. I am glad you agree with me on the Egerton's example:it is a choora, plain and simple. Thus, we can be absolutely certain that they existed even in the middle of the 19th century.

As I said, with the exact dating there is no doubt that yours is the beginning of the 20th.

I am fascinated by the mention of Gypsies making wootz in the 20th. If true, the "re-discoverer of bulat" general Anosov should have just gone to Central Asia instead of adding crushed diamonds to his crucibles:-). If you find the actual source of this info, and if it is believable, that would be a major revelation to the Wootz lovers all over the world. Please try to find it and publish it. And,perhaps, you might be kind enough to post it here: I am sure many, many Forumites willthank you!!!

[ariel]

And, BTW, can anyone show us examples of the unquestionably Central Asian -made wootz blades?

They have used Persian wootz blades and just dressed them according to the local fashion. Thus, it wood be interesting to see what those Bukharan or Afghani blade smiths were capable of. Then we hopefully can compare the quality of Choora blades to the standards, Persian or local.

Egerton specifically mentioned Khorasan as one of production sites, thus Gavin's example might be a remounted one.

[Gavin Nugent]

Here are some Ariel, a perfectly preserved pair of Wootz Bukharan pichoq, turquoise encrusted silver hilts with garnet, silver and Niello bolsters sitting in their original cloth suspension with silver dressed and gilded sheaths attached.

I understand this type of item to be political gifts and also circa 1900, give or take a couple of decades.

With regards to the Choora I presented, the chiselled spine designs appear very true to the region as does the polished sections of the blade being a NW Indian thing to my knowledge. Of course the polished panels could be added anytime by someone with the knowledge to do so.

Gavin

[David R]

Here's my example, more of a Khyber Knife being 58cm long in total, but described as a Choora by Ian B at the Armouries. Bought a few years ago, before the recent involvement and so most likely dating to an earlier Imperial campaign. 19thC?

[Gavin Nugent]

Certainly a Khyber knife David, it doesn't follow the form of the Choora despite some aspects having a shared similarity.

Gavin

[ariel]

Thanks Gavin,
Good beginning of a database. The main problem is that it is likely to be Bukhara and Afghanistan.


Capt. Masalski saw manufacture of Central-Asian wootz in the 1850s if my memory is correct.


Any documented evidence of its production in Afganistan proper, especially around the Khyber Pass? Kabul or Jellalabad, as per Egerton?

[ariel]

DavidR:
Can you show magnified pic? I can' t see wootz pattern.

[David R]

ariel, I do not think this is wootz, more likely a folded steel.

[Kurt]

ariel, I do not think this is wootz, more likely a folded steel.


I am of the same opinion!
Kurt

[ariel]

Ah so...
:-)

[Gavin Nugent]

Here is a snap of a high end Khyber with a wootz blade and fittings.

Gavin

[ariel]

Here is my Choora: handle is horn with multiple small nails, all decorative parts are brass. The interesting thing is the thin line of turquoises below the bolster, on both sides.
The scabbard is made of ass hide ( not THAT ass! The one that is a donkey, and has long ears!:-))

When and where would you put it?

[Rick]

"When and where would you put it?"

Between the ribs; preferably on a dark night ?? :D






couldn't resist

[ariel]

I fully expected it :-)

[ariel]

Well, after a long interruption, I want to show 2 more chooras.
The is a long friendly argument between myself and another member about the age of a choora as a pattern.
In his opinion choora appeared only in the 20 th century as a modification of Karud.

Here are two chooras bought originally at an auction in Scotland. Their scabbards are in a sorry shape, but both carry paper labels dated 1854 and 1840. The daggers and their scabbards fit each other perfectly: no doubt original.Since the daggers themselves are not dated, as usual for the Afghani stuff, I did the next best thing: contacted Dr. Cathleen Baker from the Department of Restoration and Preservation of the University of Michigan Library. She is a world-renown expert on all things printed: paper, ink, techniques, bindings etc, former President and member of the Board of Directors of professional societies in her field, and the author of books and articles on the history of printing materials and techniques.
She examined the chooras ( magnifying equipment, UV and infrared lights, some chemical analysis), and in her professional opinion the physical condition of the labels and their materials ( papers, inks) are compatible with the mid-19th century or earlier, and incompatible with 20th century.

Together with the dates, this seems to clinch the issue: chooras existed in the pattern known till today even in the middle of the 19th century.

Gentlemen, I give you 2 oldest dated chooras known to man and beast :-)

And of the beasts: please look at the pics of the handle of the bigger choora: rhino?

[mahratt]

Dear Ariel.

No one is arguing that the very old papers. But no one can say when the papers were glued (50 years ago or 100 years ago). And most importantly, why ...

In addition, you're kind of writing in Russian forum that besides numbers (not necessarily the date) on pieces of paper are many other words that you no one could translate into English;)

So do not be in such a hurry, saying that these chooras 19th century.

[mahratt]

And of the beasts: please look at the pics of the handle of the bigger choora: rhino?

Just horn (no rhino horn). This is a similar pattern in the Kurdish dagger.

Take a picture please, so that could be seen a cross-section fibers horns.

[ariel]

Mahratt, you have your opinion about dating chooras, I have mine, and we have discussed it many times.


Why wouldn't we put our differences aside and let the Forumites decide for themselves whether they view expert opinion sufficiently convincing. OK?

As to the origin of the handle, I am making arrangements to take it to our Museum of Natural History and have the real experts look at it.

Meanwhile, the Forumites are free to express their opinions.

[mahratt]

Mahratt, you have your opinion about dating chooras, I have mine, and we have discussed it many times.


Why wouldn't we put our differences aside and let the Forumites decide for themselves whether they view expert opinion sufficiently convincing. OK?

As to the origin of the handle, I am making arrangements to take it to our Museum of Natural History and have the real experts look at it.

Meanwhile, the Forumites are free to express their opinions.

You have expressed your opinion, and I expressed my opinion. We both participants of the forum;) What are the arguments? Only opinions.

And why do you need an expert to determine the horn? Suffice it to another photo of a certain angle.

[ariel]

Why wouldn't we both remain quiet and let the Forumites speak?

[David]

Just my 2 cents...
Clearly these papers have been attached to these sheaths for a very long time. If this was an attempt to deceive about the age of these sheaths it would be a very good forgery indeed. Better, sharper photographs would beg helpful though, Ariel.
But if we do assume that the papers were in place for a very long time i don't see that someone even 50 years ago would bother to try to deceive anyone with dates just 100 years previous. What would be the point? Ariel took the time and effort to have these papers scientifically analyzed. I see no reason, therefore, to doubt the dating of these sheaths give the age of the paper. Even if the numbers themselves do not represent dates, the paper and ink has been proven to be 19th century, so i find little to doubt with this finding.
I also don't see why expert examination to determine whether or not the handle is rhino is a bad thing. Photographs can be deceptive, and if you are not too offended by this professional photographer's opinion Ariel, your photographs are just not clear enough to really determine anything for sure. ;) So personally i would welcome your expert's testimony from the Museum of Natural History. :)
Why would anyone not welcome such evidence?

[ariel]

I freely admit my poor photographic abilities. No offence taken. Do I blush? Yes.... :-(((
Photographing a different view of the pommel, as suggested, is impossible: it is so polished by the years of hand contact that nothing can be discerned. Personal handling by a professional is the only way.

[mahratt]

Just my 2 cents...
Clearly these papers have been attached to these sheaths for a very long time. If this was an attempt to deceive about the age of these sheaths it would be a very good forgery indeed. Better, sharper photographs would beg helpful though, Ariel.
But if we do assume that the papers were in place for a very long time i don't see that someone even 50 years ago would bother to try to deceive anyone with dates just 100 years previous. What would be the point? Ariel took the time and effort to have these papers scientifically analyzed. I see no reason, therefore, to doubt the dating of these sheaths give the age of the paper. Even if the numbers themselves do not represent dates, the paper and ink has been proven to be 19th century, so i find little to doubt with this finding.
I also don't see why expert examination to determine whether or not the handle is rhino is a bad thing. Photographs can be deceptive, and if you are not too offended by this professional photographer's opinion Ariel, your photographs are just not clear enough to really determine anything for sure. ;) So personally i would welcome your expert's testimony from the Museum of Natural History. :)
Why would anyone not welcome such evidence?

David, no one disputes that the paper is very old and that the paper glued for a long time (50 years is a long time, too). There is no question about the fact that it is a fake. But! 1) Ariel no has translated all the text and stopped at the numbers, which he considers dates. It is not quite correct. Maybe it's a record of the number of sheep :) 2) No one person does not determine exactly when the old paper was glued (50 years ago, 100 years ago or 150 years ago). And in Afghanistan, a very old paper used for household needs 40-50 more years ago. 3) It is known that the scabbard choor often papered with paper, so they came to the sword belt tight (see photo).

And another. Let's look a hypothetical situation. I have an old edition of the newspaper in 1927. And I have a knife that did in 1970. If I glue a piece of old newspaper on the knife that did in 1970, this knife will be stabbed in 1927? )

And on account of rhino horn - is online now enough people who can simply determine what kind of horn in question, if the photos will be presented in a certain foreshortening.

[mahratt]

Photographing a different view of the pommel, as suggested, is impossible: it is so polished by the years of hand contact that nothing can be discerned. Personal handling by a professional is the only way.

Very strange ... The longitudinal fibers are seen well, although exactly there more hand contact. Their cross, where hand contact less-section is polished so that nothing is visible?

In the Horn of rhinoceros we always clearly visible longitudinal section of a special "drawing".

[ward]

I think mahratt is correct to a point. You have not translated what else it says so have no context that this is a date. It could easily mean that it was the 1854 piece they made, maybe it was remembering his grandfather's death. It seems strange that it in western characters and dating while the rest is not. If it says this was made under the ruler whomever, or if it was collected by lord so and so at that date you would have a lot stronger case. As to the paper being added the afghans are notorious for mixing old and new items together. The piece might be that old but Ariel you are far from proving it. I think this debate is one of the more interesting ones I have read.

[ariel]

Mahratt,
Why are you so nervous?
On what grounds do you call these labels a fake?

You might be right, and the handle may not be a rhino one. This is exactly why I am making arrangements to show it to an expert. But this is an aside and bears no influence on the main question.

The important thing is the age.

David has already agreed with the idea of the "19th century". Please stop adding more and more unrelated verbiage and images and let other Forumites express their opinions.

Thanks.

[ariel]

Ward, thank you.
These labels were examined by a person fluent in both Urdu and Pashto.
This is Pashto. However, he was unable to make sense of any other textual snippets with the exception of a very tentative "Mohammed" on the better preserved one. Also, these labels were examined by the Curator of the Islamic Manuscripts collection in the Dept. of Restoration. She pointed out to some numbers in the right upper corners of both labels. According to her, they represent typical archival entries ( accounting entries, collection entries, documents rosters etc, etc.) on old Indian/Afghani documents , including 19th century.

Dr. Baker examined not only the composition of papers and inks, but also assessed the potential age of paper, leather and wood. This is something she was trained to do, deals regularly with, presented multiple lectures all over the world and published papers about. In a way, this is identical to how the conservators and restorers examine and assess book bindings.

As a professional book/binding restorer, she dated the paper/wood/leather complexes as compatible with mid 19th century or earlier and definitely older than 20th century. She maintained this conclusion even without taking the numbers 1854 and 1840 into account. Simply by the state of the materials. And she had the advantage of actually handling these objects and doing her traditional tests on them.

Should we accept the testimony of an expert witness or dismiss it?

The labels had to be attached to the scabbards after the manufacture of these chooras and aged in parallel with them from there on. The estimates of their age as mid-19th century, therefore, give the absolutely latest date of their manufacture, and this is the reason why they may be even older.

You are correct: this is the most unexpected and fascinating discussion we have had in a very long time. We are dealing here with dating an old weapon using a completely novel and hitherto never used approach. Fifty years ago the idea of using DNA samples as a method of finding an accused guilty or innocent would have been viewed as totally crazy:-)

[ward]

That is a much more reasoned assessment. I would conclude that 19th century is very reasonable. I have come across a handful of these over the years with the paper attached and various writing on them.

[ariel]

Thanks, Ward.

[mahratt]

Mahratt,
Why are you so nervous?
On what grounds do you call these labels a fake?

You might be right, and the handle may not be a rhino one. This is exactly why I am making arrangements to show it to an expert. But this is an aside and bears no influence on the main question.

The important thing is the age.

David has already agreed with the idea of the "19th century". Please stop adding more and more unrelated verbiage and images and let other Forumites express their opinions.

Thanks.

Ariel, my friend, and who of us nervous? I just express my assumption. Please quote, where I said that your "labels" - a fake? :)

I am delighted that David has agreed with you. That is his right. And my right to express my opinion on your version of the "19th century". The pictures are just pertain to the topic of discussion. It is strange that you do not want to see. And let's not plugging each other's mouth. You express your opinion in the forum of items, and I express my opinion.

[mahratt]

That is a much more reasoned assessment. I would conclude that 19th century is very reasonable. I have come across a handful of these over the years with the paper attached and various writing on them.

Dear Ward. Ariel refers to the opinion of an expert. It's pretty cool. But! One thing is when the expert concludes about the age books (hardcover leather), which was stored (because the books are always stored in special conditions. And those that do not keep do not get to the experts). Another thing - a knife, which is constantly used. Its details (especially wood and leather scabbard) wear out quickly. And it is hardly an expert on the books (with all due respect) can accurately determine the age of leather and wood scabbard.
I have to say Ariel in Russian forum that his version is very interesting. But this is only version. And the evidence is not sufficient. To say that choor were in the 19th century can only when we find choor in the museum, and in this museum is to be recorded from the 19th century, Kotra said choora was the exhibit is the collection of the 19th century. K Unfortunately everything else is just speculation. On the existence of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster is also a lot of debating. Someone believes in them, some do not. It is everyone's right. But no serious evidence of their existence...

[Kurt]

Hi ,

What is your opinion about this Choora ??

Kurt

[mahratt]

Hi ,

What is your opinion about this Choora ??

Kurt

Hi Kurt!

Lovely choora! My opinion is. Some Waziri took the blade from the Pesh-Kabz did handle to choora (usual for myself). When this was done - no one knows ... I saw choor with wootz blades Pes-Kabz, Kard and even Jambiya.

[Kurt]

Hi Kurt!

Lovely choora! My opinion is. Some Waziri took the blade from the Pesh-Kabz did handle to choora (usual for myself). When this was done - no one knows ... I saw choor with wootz blades Pes-Kabz, Kard and even Jambiya.

Hi Mahratt ,
Is also my opinion !
Kurt

[mahratt]

Hi Mahratt ,
Is also my opinion !
Kurt

Thank you my friend! I am delighted that our views coincide.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Interesting discussion, and I must say that Ariel has done his home work well :-).
I am no specialist on chooras, but if I was asked I would have guessed 19th century.
To skipp the discussion on the paper, ink and handwriting I would have suggested that the wood should be checked, but I see that this has been done, and the result was 19th century.
So not only does the chooras seem to be 19th century, the scabbards as well, which is nice to know - especially for Ariel :-).
Jens

[ariel]

Jens, many thanks for expressing your opinion.

[Ian]

Mahratt and ariel:

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I would like to venture some observations based on ariel's pictures to date (acknowledging that they are incomplete and not very clear).

First, like Jens, I think the scabbards and wood show age and are consistent with items I have handled from the middle of the 19th C--and that observation is confirmed by ariel's historical consultant.

Second, the papers glued to the scabbards appear to have been there for a long time. They show defects adjacent to old deterioration of the leather covering the wooden scabbards. These defects in the leather show wear and rubbing, suggesting they are not recent, and the paper matches that damage well.

Third, I believe at least one of the inscriptions is a date because I think I can read "JANUARY 1 /, 1854." The first three letters of JAN seem clear and the rest of the month is indistinct. The following number (below the name of the month) could be a "1" or "3," then a slash, comma and 1854. All of this is in English and consistent with the Scottish auction provenance that ariel provided. As ariel's consultant has already determined, the handwriting is consistent with an early 19th C English style (possibly older), but we don't know the age of the person who wrote it. It seems reasonable to conclude, however, that the handwriting is consistent with having been written by an adult in the mid-19th C, and therefore consistent with the date on at least one of these choora scabbards.

Fourth, the remaining text on these papers is not written in English or a language that I recognize. What the language of this writing may be seems an important clue to the puzzle. Much of the inscriptions are faded or missing, which will make translation difficult even if we can find someone who can read it. There are photographic techniques and other methods used by professionals specializing in antique documents that will enhance faded writing, and these might be useful here. Perhaps forumites reading this thread will be able to suggest resources who could help with that.

Lastly, if I had been shown just these knives and their scabbards (without any attached documents), my estimated age would have been second half of the 19th C. That would have been my best guess. If they turn out to be older than that, then it would not surprise me very much. If they are actually of early 20th C manufacture, then I would be more surprised.

Let's hear what the professional experts have to say about the inscriptions and the likely age of these two knives.

Great topic!

Regards,

Ian.

[ward]

there is a evolution to weapons. I doubt that every one in 1901 said I must make a choora today. If you were preparing a research paper on this I would expect more than the opinion of one expert. I would like to see possible paintings and museum acquisitions checked. I am always a little leary about some museums claims. They do not always know what they are doing. I would probably also look for early examples of what the knife evolved from. I agree the experts field is slightly off from what is being studied and the ageing of the items may vary from books. However I can not think of a similar expert it could be brought to that could do better. Also what was said was that the scabbard was studied by the expert and their opinion given of it. I guess that you could take a sample of the horn taken and tested for age. I am not sure how accurate or expensive that would be. I think that mahratt would be better served if he showed documented pieces of why his dating is correct and show the widespread use of the knife that this replaced. I do not say that ariel is absolutely right, but using Occam's razor it leads to him being more correct.

[ariel]

Ian, thank you!
As I have mentioned earlier, the text was attempted to be read by a native ( my postdoctoral fellow from Pakistan, who is fluent in Urdu and Pashto and his wife, who is a native Pashto) neither of them managed to get any useful clues. When these labels were examined in the Dept. Of Restoration, they were viewed under mighty magnification , and in different lights. This was also unproductive and the Curator of the Islamic Manuscript collection couldn't make any heads or tales either.
In short, this is a dead end. Drats! :-)


Ward,

Mahratt based his entire hypothesis on the fact that, having scoured the Internet, he was unable to find any photographs or drawings of Afghani natives carrying chooras. One could counter it by noting that very few British photographers, artists or journalists dared to venture to Waziristan and its "suburbs" in the 19 century:-) but I do trust Mahratt that his search was fruitless. He is very good in searching the Net.

I know of no examples of very old Choora in British museums. I found catalogues of provincial amateur exhibitions of ~ 1870 introducing Waziri or just Afghani knives, but there were no pics. Their whereabouts are unknown to me. Perhaps, they are the very ones I am showing here:-)

Egerton shows a Choora in his book ( #624, Plate XIV) and gives Bannu as its origin: current Edwardsville, Pakhtunkhwa, The Pakistani part of the Khyber Pass) . Regretfully, Mahratt refuses to see a Choora in it :-)

Radiocarbon analysis is unlikely to be productive: the items are not old enough and the spread will undoubtedly push the date somewhere between 17 and 20 centuries. Even worse, assuming that the analysis establishes the age as 19 century, one would be able to invoke a not unreasonable counter argument that the churras were made in , say, 1940, but the master used bits and pieces of wood, leather and horn that he inherited from his great-great-grandfather and that were stored in the darkest corner of his workshop:-)

[mahratt]

Dear participants of the forum.
Before talking about the possibility of chooras in the 19th century:
1) Can somebody of you give the image an Afghan (Waziri or someone else) with choor before 1900?
2) Does anyone of you knowledge of chooras in museum collections, which became a museum exhibit before 1900?

All other considerations, including the subjective opinions of experts - it is almost child's play "believe, do not believe," in which there is no serious evidence. For example. I ask an expert on the tree at the State Historical Museum in Moscow (Russia). I ask him, he can visually (without complex analyzes) to determine the age of a tree, exposed to the environment? He said that no one can do it for sure.


Third, I believe at least one of the inscriptions is a date because I think I can read "JANUARY 1 /, 1854." The first three letters of JAN seem clear and the rest of the month is indistinct. The following number (below the name of the month) could be a "1" or "3," then a slash, comma and 1854. All of this is in English and consistent with the Scottish auction provenance that ariel provided. As ariel's consultant has already determined, the handwriting is consistent with an early 19th C English style (possibly older), but we don't know the age of the person who wrote it. It seems reasonable to conclude, however, that the handwriting is consistent with having been written by an adult in the mid-19th C, and therefore consistent with the date on at least one of these choora scabbards.


If you say so, it turns out that the number "1854" and an inscription in Farsi (or Pashtu) are written in various ink (After all, from your words it turns out that they were written by different people.)? Then it turns out the expert Ariel is not so good ... She did not tell him that there are different inks..(at least he did not mention about it in Russian forum).


I know of no examples of very old Choora in British museums. I found catalogues of provincial amateur exhibitions of ~ 1870 introducing Waziri or just Afghani knives, but there were no pics. Their whereabouts are unknown to me. Perhaps, they are the very ones I am showing here:-)

Egerton shows a Choora in his book ( #624, Plate XIV) and gives Bannu as its origin: current Edwardsville, Pakhtunkhwa, The Pakistani part of the Khyber Pass) . Regretfully, Mahratt refuses to see a Choora in it :-)


When there is no picture of what to say, Ariel? :) You and I already know the alleged "Afghan knife" of the printed catalog Jacob.

The subject, which is shown in Egerton - not Afghan choora (see image). I've said many times this Ariel :) Moreover, the fact that certain items Egerton called "choora" not to say that this is the Afghan choora that we are discussing. In the 19th century the word "choora" refers to a knife (a "knife" in general and not any specific knife).

[ward]

I am surprised that the English would not have any trophies from the 2nd afghan war {1878-1880} that would include chooras. I think that would be an easier date to research. As I have mentioned I do not disagree with you except with the written numbers being a date of collection or manufacture. You have done a lot of research and it is interesting. It might be worth your while to write out in a more precise paper the steps you have taken to show your premise of the dating. You have already done the work so why not. People will always disagree some using rational explanations some not. ethnic weapons are hard to date and rough estimates are mostly used, especially in this particular part of the world where the same exact motifs,materials and workmanship may still be in use.

[ward]

Mahratt this statement is not realistic.

All other considerations, including the subjective opinions of experts - it is almost child's play "believe, do not believe," in which there is no serious evidence. For example. I ask an expert on the tree at the State Historical Museum in Moscow (Russia). I ask him, he can visually (without complex analyzes) to determine the age of a tree, exposed to the environment? He said that no one can do it for sure.

I started college as a archeology major and dating wood is reasonably precise. You take a section of wood from that area and look at the size of the rings and the count. you cross reference this. No he probably can't just look at the tree and tell you its age.

[mahratt]

I started college as a archeology major and dating wood is reasonably precise. You take a section of wood from that area and look at the size of the rings and the count. you cross reference this. No he probably can't just look at the tree and tell you its age.

I apologize for my bad English. I mean, not a tree out of the forest, where you can watch the annual rings. I'm talking about the tree on the scabbard (which is exposed to the environment: wind, water, sun, and so on).

Expert (of which I spoke) works in the museum with old objects made of wood)

[ward]

Technically as long as you have a section with the rings on it you could, but you would have to destroy the piece. I am sure that better methods have been advanced in 30 some years. Yes I know the next argument was that the wood could have been cut at that time and used later.

[mahratt]

Yes I know the next argument was that the wood could have been cut at that time and used later.

:)

Especially when you consider that the wood in Central Asia was not much.

[Jim McDougall]

I must say I very much admire the empirical approach taken by Ariel toward the analysis of these examples and their associated labels. However, I am not sure that findings pertaining to these labels would add to supporting the proper dating of them. As has been noted, these might refer to any number of notations or data. With the materials, again, these would not necessarily pertain ...it must be remembered, ethnographic weapons were constantly refurbished and recycled, and tags or labels may have been adjoined to the item at any point in its holding.

Then there is the red herring matter of the 'choora' itself, which lends more to a 'name game' which plagues identifying ethnographic forms. It would seem that we can establish the 'term' choora from at least the mid to third quarter 19th century as both Burton and Egerton use it loosely. When trying to link it directly to a distinct form, it remains unclear and even Egerton (pl.XIV, 624) is identified as 'pesh kabz', yet has rudimentary appearance of a 'choora' in our parlance.

In reviewing Torben Flindt's excellent work on Bukharen arms (1979) he notes this narrow straight back, T blade with radius to sharp point blade as a 'karud' (p.23). He never uses the term 'choora' in his work.

Here we enter the slippery slope of terminology with pesh kabz (typically recurved sharp point); karud (a heavier blade and hilt, rather a smaller 'Khyber' knife..but with the narrower blade also in degree per Flindt); and the 'choora' (which term is notably absent from Flindt).
Mr. Flindt also notes that neither he nor Elgood could derive the origin of the term karud, but presumed perhaps from the Persian 'kard', yet another form in this group.

It would seem to me that these various forms evolved rather concurrently in these Central Asian regions, and most likely in very similar styles from as early as latter 18th century of course through 19th. Tribal arms are of course typically not dated, nor recorded as far as form, so chronological evolution of a particular form is extremely unlikely without categoric provenance. Also is the matter of regional and often tribal preference, which means that the variations we find in these weapons is more often probably lent to those factors than to any developmental character.

In my opinion, there is really no 'debate' here, rather some very well observed discourse which offers an excellent overview of these variations of the spectrum of Central Asian daggers used from easily 19th century into the 20th.
As far as dating each item, it is more to its own merits and comparable motif and decoration than to an overall form and specific term.

I think it would be interesting to look further into the presence of the cleft in the pommel of Khyber knives (seylaawa) of the 'sword' size, their smaller counterparts 'karud' and apparently some of these 'choora' (pesh kabz).
It would seem this may derive at least partly or perhaps wholly from the distinctive Bukharen sabres (Flindt .p.23) which developed independently from the shashka form in the Caucusus though the cleft is compellingly similar. The influences of Persian arms of course notably present here, thus filtering into Afghan (N. India) regions.
I notice that the cleft is absent in some of these 'choora' etc. and perhaps we might look more to that feature in determining any consistancies.

[ward]

we will just have to have a difference of opinion what will lead to a decision

[ariel]

Gentlemen,
We are digressing .
The entire label with 1854 was written with the same ink and nobody ever mentioned different handwritings. I do not know where did Mahratt get this info, as it was not something told to me by the examiners and I never mentioned it to you.

We are not discussing the etymology of the word Choora and its applicability to the daggers in question.

Similarly, I am not entering the fray arguing about differences and similarities of Karud and Choora ( whatever they represent).

The salient point of Dr. Baker's expert opinion was that the labels were adjoined to the scabbards sometime in the mid 19th century and started to age together with wood and leather from there on. That's it. It does not depend on the text analysis of the labels or on their content. We are talking pure papyrology or whatever we want to call it.

Can we limit our discussion to the facts we learned from the world-reknown expert in the field and ignore any extraneous issues together with our opinions, suppositions and biases?


This will be a true academic approach.

We can also recall that a similar admonition is given by any judge to any jury:-)

[ariel]

Mahratt, many thanks for providing a good view of the dagger #624 from the book by Egerton next to what we traditionally call Afghani Choora.

Now everybody can compare them easily.

Can you please explain what prompts you to believe these are different daggers?

[Jim McDougall]

I think we can agree that the 'Afghan dagger' illustrated in #624 of Egerton is of compelling similarity to those we term 'choora' despite being called a pesh kabz in Egerton's description. We know that Egerton completed much of his research long before his publication in 1885, probably as early as the 1850s.
The well examined labels on the two examples indicating dates of 1854 and 1840 certainly suggest that period hosted daggers of this form presumably in Afghan regions.

Regardless of what term is used to describe these daggers, it seems that we have established mid 19th century as a viable terminus ante quem for this form. As I suggested, the form most likely had been around some time before that as we have no indications these are prototypes.

The reason the etymology issue was mentioned is because it seemed the prime purpose in these discussions had become what the earliest date might be for this form dagger (typically termed choora). The fact that these, along with karud and pesh kabz seem to have become collectively a group of variants with the terms referring to them somewhat intermingled.
Thus the point was that establishing a distinct terminus ante quem for this specific form beyond what has been shown with these examples is unlikely unless others are found with equally documented and analyzed labeling reflecting earlier dates.

[ariel]

Jim,
Thank you for your well-reasoned opinion.

[mahratt]

Gentlemen,
We are digressing .
The entire label with 1854 was written with the same ink and nobody ever mentioned different handwritings. I do not know where did Mahratt get this info, as it was not something told to me by the examiners and I never mentioned it to you.


Read post №88 respected Ian. Or have I misunderstood his words: "All of this is in English and consistent with the Scottish auction provenance that ariel provided"?


The salient point of Dr. Baker's expert opinion was that the labels were adjoined to the scabbards sometime in the mid 19th century and started to age together with wood and leather from there on. That's it. It does not depend on the text analysis of the labels or on their content. We are talking pure papyrology or whatever we want to call it.


Dear Ariel, no expert could not say exactly when the paper adjacent to the wood sheath (50 years ago or 150 years ago). Especially if used organic glue (and the fact that the organic adhesive - You told on Russian forum).


Can we limit our discussion to the facts we learned from the world-reknown expert in the field and ignore any extraneous issues together with our opinions, suppositions and biases?


Faith - is an abstract concept. You said an expert opinion. I told her expert opinion. Maybe your expert make a mistake, maybe my expert make a mistake.
We need the facts about which I spoke earlier, rather than subjective opinions.

Mahratt, many thanks for providing a good view of the dagger #624 from the book by Egerton next to what we traditionally call Afghani Choora.

Now everybody can compare them easily.

Can you please explain what prompts you to believe these are different daggers?

Please. I always prefer to discuss openly.

Ariel, I'm surprised that you do not see the difference between the shape of the blade. I do for you part of the picture is larger (see image).

I think we can agree that the 'Afghan dagger' illustrated in #624 of Egerton is of compelling similarity to those we term 'choora' despite being called a pesh kabz in Egerton's description.

I think in the case of the object Egerton we can speak of a "prototype choora", but not about "Afghan choora" that we know today.

By the way, Egerton wrote somewhere about an item №624 - "Afghan dagger"? ;)

[ariel]

Mahratt,
Thank you .
1. Yes, you totally misunderstood Ian's remark. Few of us are known to be fluent in multiple languages, so don't worry

2. If you can provide expert testimony of an equally-qualified individual who had an opportunity to examine these daggers personally, I will consider it very seriously. In the absence of such an examination and expertise in the history of paper products, I hesitate to take the opinion of your colleague as a professional evidence.

3.See #2

4. Please read the very first sentence of Jim's last comment.

I would also like to remind you that each and every "choora" was hand made, and there were rather significant variations in the details of each and every component: blade, handle and scabbard.

As an example, please look at the 2 "chooras" that I brought to this discussion. The bigger one has a blade that is identical to your example, but a different handle, the smaller one has a blade that is virtually identical to the Egerton's example, but a handle different from the other 3. Hope you finally agree with the images. This also gives an answer to your query in post #91:
"Does anyone of you knowledge of chooras in museum collections, which became a museum exhibit before 1900?" The answer is resounding Yes, South Kensington Exhibition of the India Museum, starting at 1880.

In a way, this entire discussion with expert testimonies, details of paper technology etc, etc. was superfluous: suffice was to consult Egerton's book and the answer was clear: " chooras" existed as far back as mid-19th century. End of story.

[mahratt]

Ariel, thank you!

2. My expert, certainly not saw Your Afghan chooras. He answered General questions on the examination of the age of the tree and organic glue.

3. I really appreciate the opinion of Jim and he knows it. But, I do have an opinion. And in this case our opinions don't match. If we to have a possibility see was knife No. 624, and not a small picture, maybe I changed my mind.

4. The classic form of the Afghan chooras You know perfectly. Here we see some differences. If we follow the path of Your thoughts, it can be assumed that item No. 624 is short Karud. You can argue the opposite?

5. Sorry Ariel, but You do not see сhooras from South Kensington Exhibition of the India Museum, starting at 1880. So "Yes" should talk below one's breath. Or You can show all the photos of these chooras?

So very early and quickly say: "End of story.", and that "chooras" existed as far back as mid-19th century.

[Tatyana Dianova]

Another Choora with a tag. Maybe it can help...

[Tatyana Dianova]

Inscriptions:

[kronckew]

reminds me of my youth :)

"my dad can beat up your dad!"

"no, my dad can beat up yours!"

"but - your dad IS my dad!"

fight nice, kids. ;)

my choora has aluminum spacers in the grip. aluminum became rather cheaper after the 1880's when a frenchman invented an electric method of producing aluminum (or aluminium as they say here). prior to that it was worth more than gold and used in high end jewellery.

so mine was produced after that, probably well after. thus agreeing with both.

[ariel]

Mahratt,
The so-called karuds have massive handles, often almost cylindrical. The so-called chooras have slender grips with beak-like pommels. One glance at #624 shows what it is.
And of course both you and I can see the Choora from the South Kensington exhibition: it is the very # 624.

Of course, everybody is entitled to his private opinion. Some people even continue maintaining their opinions despite overwhelming facts to the contrary: Flat Earth Society is still active despite satellites daily circling around :-)

Tatiana,
When my Pakistani fellow comes back from vacation I will show it to him. Yours seems more readable than mine and very nicely preserved.
Thanks for the pictures.

[mahratt]

Mahratt,
The so-called karuds have massive handles, often almost cylindrical. The so-called chooras have slender grips with beak-like pommels. One glance at #624 shows what it is.
And of course both you and I can see the Choora from the South Kensington exhibition: it is the very # 624.

Of course, everybody is entitled to his private opinion. Some people even continue maintaining their opinions despite overwhelming facts to the contrary: Flat Earth Society is still active despite satellites daily circling around :-)


Ariel, but in fact at the Afghan choora blade particular form. And on the knife under the number 624, the shape does not correspond to the classic Afghan chooraa. Are not you surprised? How can we then claim that it is the Afghan choora? :) I think that you will not say that the knife show us Kurt - typical afghan choora?

You have only seen a small image given in the book and on its basis to draw conclusions. I questioned you you've seen the knife at number 624 in the museum? I think the difference is clear ...

And I think astronomy is engaged in another forum ;)

[ariel]

Mahratt,
Kurt showed us a dagger with a curved blade. You yourself said that the blade was in a manner of a Persian Pesh Kabz. Which I agree with.
#624 has a straight blade, like all Chooras. Thanks for enlarging the picture: it is very clear to anyone that it is a typical, classic, unequivocal, true etc, etc, - Choora.
How about "end of story" now? One can flog a dead horse only for so long:-)

Objects from S. Kensington exhibition went to V&A Museum, Tower and from there somewhere else. You can contact V&A or Leeds and inquire.

[mahratt]

Mahratt,
Kurt showed us a dagger with a curved blade. You yourself said that the blade was in a manner of a Persian Pesh Kabz. Which I agree with.
#624 has a straight blade, like all Chooras. Thanks for enlarging the picture: it is very clear to anyone that it is a typical, classic, unequivocal, true etc, etc, - Choora.
How about "end of story" now? One can flog a dead horse only for so long:-)

Objects from S. Kensington exhibition went to V&A Museum, Tower and from there somewhere else. You can contact V&A or Leeds and inquire.

Ariel, do you not see that the blade of the knife under the number 624 is different from the blade of the classical Afghan choora ??? This is seen with the naked eye. I'm afraid you see what you want to see.

So that the "end of history" has a very long time;)

By the way, Ariel, is you're trying to bring a knife from the directory Egerton, as proof of his rightness, why do not you contact V & A or Leeds? )))

[kronckew]

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd135/seethelight9/misc/xFgKg.gif

http://australianclimatemadness.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/flogging_dead_horse_what1.jpg

can we at least agree that y'all disagree?

[ariel]

Kronckew:

:-) :-)

[ariel]

Removed: duplicate

[ariel]

In the immortal words of Monty Python:

'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!!He's f*ckin' snuffed it!..... THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!


What I really admire in Mahratt, is his unwillingness to surrender despite overwhelming odds and incontrovertible facts.

Back to Monty:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

[Roland_M]

Here is my contribution for the discussion.
I am not sure, i think it is from Afghanistan, a very long blade (14,4" blade only), made from fine low contrast wootz.

[ariel]

It is not what we would call a "choora". It is rather a small khyber: they could be 14-15 inches up to 25 inches or more, ranging in their function from a dagger to a full-blown cleaver.

With wootz and ivory I would bet on India, but who knows? North-West Frontier was and still is full of ethnic Pushtuns...

[mahratt]

What I really admire in Mahratt, is his unwillingness to surrender despite overwhelming odds and incontrovertible facts.


Irrefutable facts - this is a very bold and hasty statement))) Do not rush, Ariel. You can slip and is in the soup :)

Here is my contribution for the discussion.
I am not sure, i think it is from Afghanistan, a very long blade (14,4" blade only), made from fine low contrast wootz.

My opinion is that it is "karud." Khyber knives are another form of blade.

[Ian]

Guys:

I would really hate to see this thread shut down. Between the arguing is some really interesting stuff. Tatyana has thrown an extra piece of information into the mix, and I would like to know what comes of that. Others are trying to be helpful by showing their examples of similar weapons.

Passion is fine, but data are better.

Ian.

[ariel]

Ian,
I fully agree.


As I said, Tatiana's Choora will have to wait till my fellow is back from vacation, unless somebody wishes to take charge.

Egerton' Choora is a fact and I brought it into discussion. Whoever wishes to join the discussion is more than welcome.

An aside question: some chooras have wootz blades, a real good ones, with a pattern routinely attributed to Persia. Were they reuses? Imports from Persia? Local production? Any examples of Afghani wootz of 20th century? Any hard evidence of Choora manufacture outside the Khyber Pass area?

But... " Just the facts, ma'am"

[mahratt]

Egerton' Choora is a fact and I brought it into discussion. Whoever wishes to join the discussion is more than welcome.


Knife in the directory Egerton - this is not a classic Afghan choora. Therefore it is not very correct constantly focus on "Egerton' Choora".

Choora blade which sweeps from a sharp point to a widening which meets at the shoulder of the blade and grip base. On the blade knife Egerton we do not see this.

[ariel]

Very good description of the Choora blade.

The example in Egerton follows it to a "T". Thanks for confirming it.

Also, the handle of the Egerton's example is identical to the handles of Chooras you so generously posted here.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.... :-)

Again, thanks for bringing examples proving that the Egerton's dagger is indeed a Choora.

[fernando]

Gentlemen.
So good that this conversation acquires a more diplomatic tone ... before the need for a moderator intervention.

[mahratt]

Thank you for the nice words about the formulation of the blade choorа.

You can see in the figure from the catalog Egerton T-shaped cross section of the blade? Or Egerton somewhere wrote about T-shaped cross section of the blade knife № 624?

The handle of the Egerton's example is not identical to the handles of Afghan classical Chooras. This is evident if you look closely the picture. It looks like only the overall shape. You do not know that in India there were other knives with a narrow (thin) handles?

I understand that everyone sees what he wants to see;) But it is worth a closer look.

[David]

The Egerton sketch is a rather small and simple line drawing with relatively little detail. The reason that people can see what they want to see in it is simply because there is not enough actually there to see in the first place. I would suggest that you gentlemen move on and find another point to politely debate about. ;)

[mahratt]

The Egerton sketch is a rather small and simple line drawing with relatively little detail. The reason that people can see what they want to see in it is simply because there is not enough actually there to see in the first place. I would suggest that you gentlemen move on and find another point to politely debate about. ;)

Thank you, David.

That's what I said. It will be wrong to build the findings, considering the small image.

[Jim McDougall]

As far as I can see, what Mahratt and David are saying is entirely key....the Egerton example is an impressive line drawing from pre 1885 of what he describes as a 'pesh kabz'. As noted by Mahratt, there are no indications of this having a T spine either in the drawing nor the caption text. It is important to note that Egerton's art work seems to include these kinds of features where applicable in other examples of arms.

In Egerton 617, a dagger also termed 'pesh kabz' is shown, the blade does reveal the T shaped back which as usually seen on Afghan arms includes the device termed 'calyx' which is a kind of palmette. Here we see in the hilt the 'Afghan' style rather a birdhead profile, and notably with the cleft.

These Afghan weapons seem to typically have what appears to be a lanyard loop at the pommel in location much like a capstan.

In my view, much of this 'debate' seems to, as reluctantly we appear to recognize, based on terminology, with 'choora' reference to what appears to be a variation of the spectrum of North Indian/Afghan/Persian daggers.

As seen in Egerton, the term 'pesh kabz' is entered, but as far as I can understand, this term applies to the 'khanjhar' hilt form of recurved Indian daggers with profound Persian influence. While the pesh kabz is of course recurved, the 'choora' appears to be a straight blade version.
In my perception , both daggers in Egerton (617, 624) both named pesh kabz, are in actuality 'KARUD' variations . While 624 has the more dramatic pommel projection, the hilt is flat, not clefted as most karud. The blade has no spine noted, and is without the more pronounced contour.

In 617, the blade also has more the subtle contour (as Karud) as well as the T spine, calyx assembly, and the notable cleft.

These features of karud are reflective of the close association with the of course larger 'siliwar' or 'Khyber knife' which is distinctly Afghan.

While Burton and Egerton apparently knew the term 'chura', but as seen in Egerton, the term does not appear to have been 'formally' used but more colloquial (more diminutive for smaller knife?) and for daggers of karud form broadly termed 'pesh kabz' in these times.

Though I realize that the 'name game' is often rather scornfully endured in many circumstances in ethnographic cases, it is well known that terminology, semantics, transliteration and perceptions often lead to these kinds of 'debates'. We know that Egerton was the 'culprit' in the misapplication of the term 'katar' to the well known transverse grip dagger actually termed jamadhar.

I think we have established that at some point, probably early in the 19th century, these T spined straight versions of pesh kabz, and closely aligned with their usually heftier cousins, the karud, appeared in Afghan regions (northernmost India in the broad case then).

Afghan 'armourers', nor the itinerant craftsmen such as Lohar, who situated throughout Afghan tribal areas, did not use pattern books, and as can be seen by Khyber knives, karud, and other forms, the variation spectrum is reasonably broad.

These matters are I think best to continue considering, and to be observed constructively as this 'discussion' moves forward, and I for one look forward to that considering the knowledge and experience here. I always learn from you guys!! and my observations are what I can derive from what resources I have. All of you have hands on experience with actual examples.



***addendum:
On p.108 Egerton, he describes several knives en suite as ch'hurri, and these are from Ulwar (in Rajasthan) . This of course lends to the colloquial use in Hindi perhaps to the smaller size usual in these daggers.

[David]

Thank you, David.

That's what I said. It will be wrong to build the findings, considering the small image.
Mahratt, considering it was you who brought this sketch into the discussion in the first place and that you were only just a couple of posts ago using it to try to advance your own theories and belief i find this last statement of yours quite amusing.
Again, i suggest that we leave this Egerton sketch behind and move forward with this discussion in a civil, good-spirit manner that seeks supportable evidence without prejudice and leaves far behind whatever petty scrabbles you and Ariel may have had on this subject somewhere on some Russian language forum.
That or the moderation team will unfortunately shut this discussion down.

[Jim McDougall]

Ian,
I fully agree.


As I said, Tatiana's Choora will have to wait till my fellow is back from vacation, unless somebody wishes to take charge.

Egerton' Choora is a fact and I brought it into discussion. Whoever wishes to join the discussion is more than welcome.

An aside question: some chooras have wootz blades, a real good ones, with a pattern routinely attributed to Persia. Were they reuses? Imports from Persia? Local production? Any examples of Afghani wootz of 20th century? Any hard evidence of Choora manufacture outside the Khyber Pass area?

But... " Just the facts, ma'am"


Important to remember that the 'Khyber Pass' itself is but one notably pronounced area within the rather vast area in these regions which comprised the Khyber Agency of British administration. The tribes of the Khyber also situated far into adjacent areas, in most cases defying definitive geographic location.
It might be a consideration that the itinerant craftsmen known to be associated with the small hafted axe termed 'lohar' (these groups are actually termed Lohar as an ethnicity) may have been key in producing these smaller versions of 'Karud' form. Perhaps the always notable Persian influence of the pesh kabz lent to their evolution?
The term chuura itself as previously noted seems a Hindi colloquial for smaller knife, in this case probably a derivative of the karud form.

[Jim McDougall]

Please pardon my return to the Egerton images and text (I just noticed Davids post)....and while I realize this particular resource has obvious inadequacies , my purpose was to note again that the terminology for these knives does seem pertinent.
If the discussion is toward a terminus ante quem for the form we have come to know as 'choora' , then illustrations with accompanying text do have certain capacity in the material discussed...even if not definitive identification in corroborating the form.

Unless we define exactly what we are striving for in our discussion, it leads to misunderstanding and frustrating digressions unnecessarily. This topic is fascinating and not nearly well enough understood in the arms community.
Lets make this discussion notably constructive in remedying that :)

[mahratt]

David, I'm glad that I can amuse you.

When I brought this sketch, I showed the shape of the blade, which is clearly visible. (The remaining fragments in the figure can not be seen).

But I brought this image, after about him said Ariel, assuming this is an important fact (post number 90):

[QUOTE=ariel]
Egerton shows a Choora in his book ( #624, Plate XIV) and gives Bannu as its origin: current Edwardsville, Pakhtunkhwa, The Pakistani part of the Khyber Pass) . Regretfully, Mahratt refuses to see a Choora in it :-)
[QUOTE]

I violated some rules of the forum? Show me, please, where exactly I committed a violation, that I do not repeat their mistakes.

Thank you.

[Jim McDougall]

Good point Mahratt on that the Egerton example is designated as Bannu, which if I am not mistaken is the same region as where the hafted axe (of zaghnal form) which is termed a 'lohar' is from. As I mentioned in my previous post, possibly the itinerant artisans who often crafted these might have developed the smaller version of karud which appears to have become colloquially known as 'choora'?

I think this might be pertinent, and hope you and the others here might express your views if my idea is possibly plausible.

All best regards,
Jim

[David]

I violated some rules of the forum? Show me, please, where exactly I committed a violation, that I do not repeat their mistakes.
Thank you.
I have not singled you out specifically Mahratt for any particular violation. However both you and Ariel are dancing dangerously close to the border of the very first rule of these forums, "Be nice and respect your fellow members."
There is more written underneath that heading, a portion of which reads:
"Flames or insults are strictly against the rules. If you disagree with another member's point of view, do so in a mature and civil manner. Civility and respect towards other participants are unconditionally expected.

If you find yourself being flamed or insulted by another member, please do not dignify that person with a response. Notify a moderator and let us handle it. If you feel you must respond to a flame or insult directly, please do NOT do so on the board - use private messages or e-mail."

If this rule had been more blatantly violated this thread would already be closed. You gentleman have been skirting dangerously close with the tone of your debate. My comments about thread closure is intended as a pre-emptive measure. I suggest you both take heed and adjust the direction of these discussions.

[mahratt]

You gentleman have been skirting dangerously close with the tone of your debate. My comments about thread closure is intended as a pre-emptive measure. I suggest you both take heed and adjust the direction of these discussions.

David,

I would be grateful if you tell me exactly what kind of my words were on the brink of "Flames or insults"? You can quote these my words? This will help me to avoid violations.

Thank you.

[David]

Mahratt, i would be grateful if you stopped trying to make a public show of indignant innocence to this audience and simply understood that the tone of the debate between yourself and Ariel is not what we like to see in civil and reasonable debate on these forums. End of story.
If you wish further clarification please PM me and i will attempt to explain it to you in terms you can better understand.

[mahratt]

Mahratt, i would be grateful if you stopped trying to make a public show of indignant innocence to this audience and simply understood that the tone of the debate between yourself and Ariel is not what we like to see in civil and reasonable debate on these forums. End of story.
If you wish further clarification please PM me and i will attempt to explain it to you in terms you can better understand.

Thanks for the reply David.

Public show - not my style. I do not know very well English. So I simply like to find out my alleged violations. From your words, I realized that specific violations of me was not (Since you are not citation). I'm glad I did not violate the rules and I will not violate the rules further (as well as it did before).

Thanks again.

[David]

If you wish further clarification please PM me and i will attempt to explain it to you in terms you can better understand.
Obviously my last statement to you was unclear Mahratt. If you would like to question moderation policy, decisions or suggestions this is not the forum to do it in.

[ariel]

I think we have unnecessarily complicated the issue of Afghani weapons.
Both Karud and Choora ( whatever they mean) are straight-bladed derivatives of Persian Pesh Kabz. This is, likely, why many old ( and even contemporary) authors use Pesh Kabz as the general definition (Please refer to the recent books by Oliver Pinchot and Robert Hales).


Elgood and Flindt, in a joint statement bashfully admitted that they had no idea of the origin of the word Karud and suggested that it may just be a mis-literation of the word Kard ( Persian "knife"), as heard by an european traveller.

Choora is an Indian word also meaning just "knife" and I am uncertain that Muslim natives of Afghanistan would use it instead of more familiar Kard( Kord) and Bichaq ( P'chak). Although geographical closeness of the Khyber Pass area to India proper might have made it possible.

If we look at Karud and Choora side-by-side, they are absolutely identical blade-wise in terms of form, lenght or thickness. The only difference is the handle, including the calyx on the back of the blade, i.e. pure decoration, not affecting the fighting abilities of the implement. I think we have already discussed the leading role of the decorative elements in defining the ethnic character of a bladed weapon. Karuds were seen everywhere: the entire Afghanistan, Central Asia, Northern India; Choora was specific for a small corner of Afghanistan , - the Khyber Pass and vicinities. I would pose that Choora was just an ethnic variant of the Karud, the straight-bladed variant of Pesh Kabz.
When did the Mahsud ( as per Stone) started manufacturing it, - is the exact issue of the current discussion. One could easily suggest their acquisition of the mass produced "karud" blades in larger centers and fitting them with "their own" inexpensive handle. This would also agree with the occasional finding of a wootz blade ( pretty frequent on expensive Karuds with rhino, ivory or valuable stone handles) coupled with ivory pommel: an Afghani bling-bling :-) Also, poor quality blades with a mishmash of cheap materials might have been attempts of provincial, village production. The last sentences are pure and unadulterated IMHO, but what the unbridled fantasy is for :-)))

[Gavin Nugent]

Well, after a long interruption, I want to show 2 more chooras.
The is a long friendly argument between myself and another member about the age of a choora as a pattern.
In his opinion choora appeared only in the 20 th century as a modification of Karud.

Here are two chooras bought originally at an auction in Scotland. Their scabbards are in a sorry shape, but both carry paper labels dated 1854 and 1840. The daggers and their scabbards fit each other perfectly: no doubt original.Since the daggers themselves are not dated, as usual for the Afghani stuff, I did the next best thing: contacted Dr. Cathleen Baker from the Department of Restoration and Preservation of the University of Michigan Library. She is a world-renown expert on all things printed: paper, ink, techniques, bindings etc, former President and member of the Board of Directors of professional societies in her field, and the author of books and articles on the history of printing materials and techniques.
She examined the chooras ( magnifying equipment, UV and infrared lights, some chemical analysis), and in her professional opinion the physical condition of the labels and their materials ( papers, inks) are compatible with the mid-19th century or earlier, and incompatible with 20th century.

Together with the dates, this seems to clinch the issue: chooras existed in the pattern known till today even in the middle of the 19th century.

Gentlemen, I give you 2 oldest dated chooras known to man and beast :-)

And of the beasts: please look at the pics of the handle of the bigger choora: rhino?

Ariel, I am using this point as a starting point for my thoughts and I'll follow through the rest of the posts as time permits and respond.

The Choora as a form, to me is clearly a 19th century creation, that's the simple part as it appears in 19th century publications, namely Lord Egerton's work.

At face value, it is hard to argue the science behind the info on the sheaths but I strongly suspect the upper one to be a later knife in that sheath.
I'd support this statement with the known WII and pre WWII period Indian knives of various forms using the same construction and material vs known old stuff.

As far as the material of the lower older one, I see goat horn under magnification.

The lower one with inserted brass pins, certainly an older Choora.

Gavin

[ariel]

Goat horn????

Never seen one, never thought of it.
Thanks

[Andrew]

I suggest all participants in this thread heed the sage advice offered by Fernando, David and Ian.

I have been busy with other pressing personal matters, but I find the on-topic posts here interesting and stimulating. Accordingly, I will likely check in frequently on the discussion. Those of you who are familiar with my approach to moderation know what to expect. Those of you who are new, well, let's just say I employ a rather...blunt form of diplomacy. :shrug:

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

[Jens Nordlunde]

Nice to see you here Andrew:-)
Always nice to see you - but when threads seem to run a bit out of hands, it is nice that there is an anchor man.
Jens

[Andrew]

Hello, my friend! Hope all is well with you and yours, Jens. :)

[ariel]

Gavin,
Thanks for your input. I am glad we are on the same page re. age of a Choora as a pattern.

I can easily see your point re. smaller choora: it is much cruder and the handle is very primitive.
However, do we really know that such village-level examples were not manufactured in the 19th century? As I mentioned earlier, there must have been local production of simple, inexpensive and replaceable knives made locally, without resorting to fancy blades and expensive materials. We see it with each and every antique oriental weapon.

Egerton, in his comment to #750 mentions Ch'hura, a " strong, heavy knife" made in Khorassan, Kandahar and Jellalabad. Did he have in mind a Choora as we refer to it in this discussion or a Khyber Knife? We will never know, because the main item he described ( #750) is an unquestionable Khyber. However, he mentions Ch'hura in the same breath, as a separate example. Most importantly from my perspective is the mention of both local and imported examples. There mush have been gradations of quality. Pure IMHO :-)

My Pakistani fellow contacted his father-in-law who is a language professor in a small university in Pakhtunkhwa and his friend, a colonel in Pakistani military, who has connections in the Military Museum in Rawalpindi. Regretfully, contacts with Afghani specialists are not possible now.....

[ariel]

Another interesting twist:

Harvey Withers, a well-known and respected dealer fom the UK, posted this Choora on E-bay ( it is sold).
The interesting thing is the presense of a lead museum tag with Queen Victoria's mark and , on the reverse, the location of this Choora in the muzeum ( hall and position). This info is per Mr. Withers' information.
Victoria reigned in the 19th century:-)

[Tim Simmons]

Unless you can add more information the crown does not mean Victoria.

[spiral]

Harvey Withers, a well-known and respected dealer from the UK, :-)

His books are full of incredibly misidentified pieces. I suggest you get a couple of his books to read....

[ariel]

Please address all queries to Mr. Withers.

I am just a messenger, quoting his description.

[Jim McDougall]

Regarding the lead tag with crown, this may not be technically Queen Victoria's 'mark' ,but it is the crown used during her reign from until her death in 1901. It seems the crown used by Edward VII was slightly different.
It is interesting to see this kind of tag used in identifying holdings in these museums.

I personally have not seen the references published by Mr. Withers, but my experiences with him suggest he does seriously research his material. It is almost certain that errors will occur in most published material, whether directly as an error or revised by subsequent research and findings. I would hesitate to discredit any authors work comprehensively as doing so is in my opinion irresponsible. Disagreement with material should be specific and supported by alternate explanation, and readers be allowed to form their own opinions.

[ariel]

Spiral,
I own and have read at least one of his books. Not being a collector of European military swords, I cannot judge the correctness of his attributions. Nevertheless, they seem to be researched and based on genuine knowledge. I have no reason to doubt his opinion and his integrity.


I really did not like your formatting of the citation of my posting: yours put a "smiley-face" directly after my characterization of Mr. Withers as a "well-known and respected dealer", thus giving an impression that I was sardonic about his reputation. The original posting had no such thing.

In the future, please be more careful with citing other peoples' texts.

Thanks.

[fernando]

... Spiral ... I really did not like your formatting of the citation of my posting: yours put a "smiley-face" directly after my characterization of Mr. Withers as a "well-known and respected dealer", thus giving an impression that I was sardonic about his reputation...
I wouldn't have such impression, Ariel; instead i would attribute the sardonic tone to the other party, in the context. But surely the insertion of the smiley in the quotation of your text was a accident; Jonathan would not think of doing such offense in purpose.
Back on track, Gentlemen.

[kronckew]

I wouldn't have such impression, Ariel; instead i would attribute the sardonic tone to the other party, in the context. But surely the insertion of the smiley in the quotation of your text was a accident; Jonathan would not think of doing such offense in purpose.
Back on track, Gentlemen.


ariel's post did have a smiley face, just after 'century'. looks like spiral cut the text out before the smiley and after his intended section & didn't realize what he'd done. always best to replace missing text with an elipsis...:)

i tend to accidentally create frowny faces when listing examples with a parenthetical comment,

like this one:(which should have looked like)

one: (which...)


'nuff said.

[spiral]

Didn't realise there was a smiley face there Ariel, Apologies for my slap dash cut & paste.

As Fernando recognised & Kronckew points out, it was an error of miss editing, not intentional....

Withers books featuring Ethnographic stuff would be of more value to this thread.

All the best,
Spiral

[ariel]

Issue closed. Thanks for the explanation.
What ethnographic books by Withers are you referring to? I am not familial with them and would love to know.

[spiral]

mmmm Cant fully recall Ariel, but I think Ive still got one, a friend gave me as a present somewhere... Give me a day or so to see if I can find it....

;) {Deliberate smiley!} :eek:

[ariel]

:-)))

[spiral]

Found it, the titles not quite as grandiose as Cameron Stones, but its getting there!

"The World Encyclopaedia of Swords & Sabres, An Authoritative History & Visual Directory of Edged Weapons from Around the World."

Including 800 stunning colour pictures...

Sounds good!

Some of the items feature in another book by the same author with a different tile as I recall, from browsing in a second hand bookshop.

Here 3 items featured in it in it, I could select many more...

[Tim Simmons]

nothing to add about a clash of views except to show that the crown can be quite modern. i really do not think it is Victorian. This is a crown on a yard stick with E ans R either side the present monarch of the UK.

[Jim McDougall]

Found it, the titles not quite as grandiose as Cameron Stones, but its getting there!

"The World Encyclopaedia of Swords & Sabres, An Authoritative History & Visual Directory of Edged Weapons from Around the World."

Including 800 stunning colour pictures...

Sounds good!

Some of the items feature in another book by the same author with a different tile as I recall, from browsing in a second hand bookshop.

Here 3 items featured in it in it, I could select many more...



Oops!!!
Well, that's what Im talking about though. While the Kenyan seme' is a properly identified item , the first item, which is clearly a sabre from Mali but referred to as a Hausa 'takouba' (????) from Nigeria is a 'howler' ...yikes!
The item from 'Malaysia' of course would be difficult to explain under that heading (no pun intended) .
Thank you for elaborating on the infractions noted in the reference to Mr. Withers book(s) specifically.

As mentioned, Stone has a number of almost bizarre gaffs as well, but overall stands as a well venerated and respected volume, so I suppose a certain number of these becomes forgivable considering the relative content which holds true.

Regarding the crown, true, this example which is simply stamped into lead might well be construed to other rulers in the British monarchy. The Georgian crown on gun locks for example could well be considered also.
In my own thought, I would regard this crown simply stamped without other context as Victorian if for no other reason than the extremely long and significant period her reign covered (1837-1901).
In the British Empire, reference to her monarchy as 'the Crown' became almost a standard in my view, and a simple crown without other context would attest to property in that case.

While obviously this subjective view does not adequately identify this particular crown as 'Victorian' but explains my tendency to the thought that it probably is.

[spiral]

Oops!!!
Well, that's what Im talking about though. While the Kenyan seme' is a properly identified item , the first item, which is clearly a sabre from Mali but referred to as a Hausa 'takouba' (????) from Nigeria is a 'howler' ...yikes!
The item from 'Malaysia' of course would be difficult to explain under that heading (no pun intended) .
Thank you for elaborating on the infractions noted in the reference to Mr. Withers book(s) specifically.

As mentioned, Stone has a number of almost bizarre gaffs as well, but overall stands as a well venerated and respected volume, so I suppose a certain number of these becomes forgivable considering the relative content which holds true.
.

Thanks Jim, it was the date of the Seme that got me! So many other bits of silliness throughout it as well .

But at least his published lots of books & sold many such pieces.

Stone was at the forefront of research & didn't have the internet, 5 minutes research on any of these arms on this or many others sites would, while not be perfect set him on a straighter line....
spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Jim, it was the date of the Seme that got me! So many other bits of silliness throughout it as well .

But at least his published lots of books & sold many such pieces.

Stone was at the forefront of research & didn't have the internet, 5 minutes research on any of these arms on this or many others sites would, while not be perfect set him on a straighter line....
spiral

Agreed, in many things published there are items and comments that prove to be pretty funny. I can recall many years ago certain mail order catalogs had descriptions and text with items which many of us would browse through and end up hysterical! These became like comic books, and we enjoyed them for years.
What was horrible was the times that some authors actually used some of these catalog descriptions as supporting evidence!!!???in their published work.
I guess that why we're here, to set things straight as much as possible on identifying items, and sharing knowledge so the newer guys can be aware when they are buying.

Stone was remarkably prudent as he took on his monumental task, and knew the pitfalls he would face. He responsibly noted to readers that there would be potential errors, and encouraged future collectors, researchers and scholars to keep moving forward in further study and resolution.
His work will always stand as the benchmark, and all these years later, here we are!!! I think he would be delighted!!!

[Tim Simmons]

Google , George 6th pillar box crowns.

[spiral]

indeed Jim its a shame when gross inaccuracies in books or in even nowadays internet articles, that are are used to inflate the prices of junk pieces...

Chaps, the crown on the lead stamp is for the last 2 century's at least a Queens crown not a Kings, Its either Vickys or Lizzies, but as it is stamped in lead in reverse, from a true stamp it clearly, not an old British museum stamp. {Even impoverished carpenters had there own steel stamps made, to mark there tools in Victorian times, never mind museums!}

More like an impression made from a Crown button, buckle or some such. Cold pressed into a piece of soft lead.

Spiral :shrug:

[ariel]

Guys, I am really enjoying it:-)
Seriously, I truly admire your attention to details and unexpected approaches to the riddles of attribution.
Great twist of the discussion!

[spiral]

Guys, I am really enjoying it:-)
Seriously, I truly admire your attention to details and unexpected approaches to the riddles of attribution.
Great twist of the discussion!

Glad your enjoying it, were always here for you Ariel! ;)

I wonder what Afghan vegetable or other natural dyes would create that bright red scabbard colouring & maintain it for 100 plus years? :shrug:

linky.. (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=138770&stc=1)

Spiral[

[ariel]

I see your point, but we do not know where and under what conditions this scabbard spent the last 150 years:-)
I recently saw pics of Jane Fonda....

[kronckew]

...
I recently saw pics of Jane Fonda....

you poor thing. what has been seen cannot be unseen

(she's 77 BTW)

jane with her makeup off taking a toke off her spliff:

[Rumpel]

Exceedingly plain, I'm afraid. I assume mid-late 20th c, acquired in Kabul's Chicken Street buried beneath much more obviously modern junk.

[taube]

Not 100% certain if this belongs here but anyway.
New acquisition from a forum member, thanks again.
I do appreciate its simple design very much.

Cheers,
taube.

[kino]

My one and only.
I think this qualifies in this thread.

[estcrh]

Not 100% certain if this belongs here but anyway.
New acquisition from a forum member, thanks again.
I do appreciate its simple design very much.

Cheers,
taube.

Not exactly a choora, more of a karud I would say.

[estcrh]

My one and only.
I think this qualifies in this thread.

I would call this a pesh.

[estcrh]

Choora, karud, pesh.

[Hagard]

Hi,
I recently bought this choora... it wasn't very expensive considering its condition... but I wanted to find out more about how it was assembled.
I was surprised to find discreet Arabic/Persian writings on it but I'm unable to read them (perhaps a date, name or place of origin ?).
Can anyone help me?
Regards from Belgium