Wilah from?

[Harley]

Hello everyone,

I am new on this forum, but it feels like I been here for months, there is so much to read and to learn.
But I have a question, and I hope you can help me with it.
I recently bought a keris, with a Sumatra sheat, de keris fits like a glove, en there are no sins of recent adjustment to it, there was a Bali hilt on it, I think Ganesha,
de keris itself looks like it’s been polish, just what I have seen on Bali wliah’s , the peksi is about 8 mm thick and 8 cm long, so no small hilt on this one, the wilah without the peksi is 38 cm.
The pendok looks like it’s home made, and not a very good job.
The only thing I now about it is that came to Nederland between the two WW, the person that brought it here was a teacher in Indonesia.
So the question is, is this a Bali wilah or Sumatra or ......?
I hope you guys can help me out, and sorry for my bad writing.

kind regards, Ben

[Sajen]

Hello Ben,

first welcome to the forum! :)
The sheath isn't from Sumatra but from Bali/Lombok and called sesrengantan but not a very well carved one and I think that the blade is as well from Bali/Lombok not only because it is polished. Do you have opened the pendok which have a East Java/Madura style? Maybe it was attached because the gandar is damaged? :shrug:

Regards,

Detlef

[Harley]

Thanks Detlef,

I was convinced that it was Sumatra, but i am glad to hear that is is from Bali, then things come together.
I have removed the pendok, and i don't no if you mean the lower part of the warangka(gandar)?, if so it was not in good condition, and definitely was made for a pendok, the bottom was straight cut, and open.
But that is no problem, i could replace that part.

regards Ben

[Sajen]

Hello Ben,

yes, the part down from the sampir/warangka or wrongko is called by javanese keris gandar; by keris from Bali penyejer. The pendok from your keris isn't a balinese one so my assumption that it was placed to cover a demaged gandar/penyejer. A gandar isn't never original cut in down or open.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

There is also a chance that this is a Bali/Madura piece, that is, a keris from Madura that is for a member of cultural Balinese living there. This type of pendok with the open window down the center is not something i have seen on Bali or Lombak keris and is more common to Madura/East Jawa wrongko. I would also like to see a closer view of the hilt because i an not convinced from the present photos that this hilt is truly Balinese. There appears to be a missing "selut" of some sort and it does not look like the kind that i would expect on a Balinese hilt. At 15 inches this could well be a Bali/Lombok blade, but they often tend to be even longer than that. The state of polish alone is not necessarily an indicator of place of origin.

[Sajen]

When I look again to your sheath I understand why you have thought that it is a sheath from Sumatra/Palembang. The sheath look like the carver hasn't known how to look a sesrengentan sheath from Bali and have created a mixture from this both sheaths.
For better understanding I have attached pictures from your sheath beside from both sheath forms. The sesrengentan pictures are taken from the book "Keris Bali Bersejarah".

[Harley]

Hello Detlef & David,

David, the pendok is really someone's homework, so I think it was made this way because there is no grade of difficultly to make it, but thats my opinion.
I have enclosed 2 pictures of the hilt, it is kind of strange that the bottom part totally is different than what i have seen.
It was not only the polished wilah, but also the extreme peksi, i really don't no what other kind of hilt would fit.

Detlef, you hit the nail on the head, i have that same example here, en even now i know that it's Bali, i can't help that i still think that he looks more like the Palembang, maybe a Monday morning product :D

Thanks for the answers.

regards,
Ben

[David]

Detlef, you hit the nail on the head, i have that same example here, en even now i know that it's Bali, i can't help that i still think that he looks more like the Palembang, maybe a Monday morning product :D
Well again Ben, the more i see of this dress the more i am convinced that it does not originate from either Bali or Lombok. The lack of the proper nuances of the true sesrengantan form, the use of this type of pendok (whether "homemade" or not) and the close-up of the roughly hewn hilt just don't jive with work i would expect from the actual Bali or Lombok culture.
Seeing this blade in cleaned up and in proper stain might help a bit with pinpointing it's origin.

[Harley]

Now it's rather getting puzzled :confused: , I agree that the hilt is from a very poor quality, but are there more area's where they use this kind of hilt?
I am working on it David, from what i have seen the blade is very quick responding on the warangan, I only was cleaning the blade but in the juice
there was probably some old warangan, so i could see the blackness on the blade with very clear pamor, but i cleaned it off because i need the blade to make the new gandar.
Thanks for your contribution David.

regards,
Ben

[A. G. Maisey]

When I look at this keris what I believe I see is a plain but good Balinese blade in very sub-standard dress.

There is no doubt in my mind that the blade is Balinese:- the pesi is typically Balinese, and as Harley has noted, what type of hilt other than Balinese will fit it; the pamor is typical coarse Bali pamor, the unetched blade finish typical Balinese, the neat, positive garap typically Balinese. What else could it be but Balinese?

But the dress is a fish of a different feather.

Plain ugly.

As Detlef has commented, it looks as if the carver set out to make a scabbard form of which he only had a very sketchy idea.

The hilt is poorly carved, again it looks as if the maker was running on depleted memory banks.

If it was collected in Bali in the period 1920 to 1940, we are looking at the period when tourism was just beginning in Bali. The puputans had all but extinguished the previous social structure, the Dutch then tried to turn Bali into a living museum, tourism had not developed to anywhere near what we see today, the Balinese craftsmen and artists were coming under the influence of European artists, as well as being influenced by what European tourists wanted. Much of the refinement that we expect to see in Balinese art and craft at the present time is very probably due in great measure to the millions of foreign visitors that Bali admits each year. If we look closely at pre-European influenced Balinese style and art, it is very much closer to the tribal art of various areas in S.E. Asia.

Yes, millions of visitors. Over 2,500,000 arrivals in 2010. That's a big market, and the artisans of Bali do their best to satisfy it.

If we go back to the period between 1920 and 1940 it was a totally different picture. Even in 1966 there were hardly any foreigners in South Bali, and entry and exit was not nearly as easy as it is today.

To a large degree the foreign visitors to Bali have created the art of Bali, or more correctly, European perspectives have been responsible for the development of existing art norms to the point where common people can afford the level of refinement that was once only available to kings and princes.

We could hypothesise about the origins of this scabbard and hilt all day, but my personal opinion is that it was made in Bali, by a carver of no particular talent, however, from what I can see of the pendok, this does not look like Balinese workmanship, nor design. I think the pendok is a later addition.

[Harley]

Dear Mr Maisey,

Thank you for your explanation, the blade Bali, good but simple, the rest is going in the parts box :D
I am going to try to make the sheath myself, never had tried one from Bali, but if you don't try, you never know.
Because it's a simple blade, what do you think would be a better dress for it,
gayaman, or the one that Detlef mentioned (sesrengantan)?

Thanks again everyone, for helping out!

regards,
Ben

[David]

We could hypothesise about the origins of this scabbard and hilt all day, but my personal opinion is that it was made in Bali, by a carver of no particular talent, however, from what I can see of the pendok, this does not look like Balinese workmanship, nor design. I think the pendok is a later addition.
I know how much you hate guessing games, but would it make sense that this keris may have ended up on a different island given the style of the pendok (whether well made or not) that was added. It just seems so out of place for a Bali keris. I find it hard to believe that a native Balinese would have this added to his keris even if it was to be done on the cheap. I can accept that a sheath might be this poorly conceived by a native Balinese but the pendok seems such a mysterious addition throwing the entire ensemble off for me.
:shrug:

[Harley]

David,

I can image n that probably something like you said, has happened with this keris.
It could be that someone bought the keris from Bali, and was living in another area, there the keris has fallen or somehow broke, and they repaired it with
everything they could lay there hands on.
And years later we trying to resolve the mystery :)

regards,
Ben

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes David, certainly, its as I said:- a later addition.

There is nothing about the pendok that looks like Bali or that looks original to this scabbard, for me. My guess is that it was most probably done in Jakarta to make the keris salable.

Harley, if I were to redress this keris I'd be looking at a gayaman wrongko, I would not give it a pendok, and since you undoubtedly do not have a set of segrek to cut the inside of the gandar so there is no joint, I'd be making the gandar in two pieces and glueing down the sides with two part epoxy adhesive, not wood working glue, because woodworking glue can generate rust.

Working out of the Indonesian environment, a pale, plain grained soft wood would be the best choice, and then stain to imitate pelet--- the Balinese and Javanese used to do it, and still do it, why shouldn't you?

[Harley]

Thanks Mr Maisey,

Then that is what i am going to try, i have done the gandar a couple of times,
but like you said i have not the tools to make it in one piece.
I have some plain Indonesian wood that i use for making the sheath, but for the pelet i really must do some practice, i tried one time before, without looking for an example, with as result a ugly kendit :shrug:

I just realized that i only have a Balinese patrem keris, can someone tell me
what the measurement of the width for a gayaman is?, the rest i can work out.

regards,
Ben

[A. G. Maisey]

I would not call that kendit ugly, its well within the parameters of a natural kendit.

Bali gayams vary a bit in size, they're not as disciplined as Solo and Jogja gayams.

I've just picked up the closest one and its measurements are 185mm long, depth at center point is 57mm, thickness at widest point on top is 26mm, the entire wrongko is 584mm from top of the atasan to the tip of the gandar. Proportion wise it looks a bit too long in the gandar for the size of the atasan.

[Jean]

Hello Ben,
Is the peksi of the blade original and intact? From your 3rd picture it seems as if it was possibly cut and rewelded about 1 cm from the base but it may be just an impression.
Best regards
Jean

[David]

Jean, i think you might just be seeing remnants of the cloth wrapping.

[Jean]

Jean, i think you might just be seeing remnants of the cloth wrapping.

May be, let us wait the reply from Ben, I see a rusty and slightly hollow line on the bottom part.
Ben, is the ganja separate (very thin line) or iras (integral to the blade)?
Regards

[Harley]

Thanks Mr Maisey,

I really don't like the look of the kendit, when i made this sheath it was the only thing i could do to make the plain sheath more attractive, now i first would look for examples, and hopefully do a better job.
Thanks again for the measurements!

Hello Jean,

It's like David said, old wrapping and glue, i can understand that they were afraid to lose this beautiful hilt :D
To me it looks like a lose ganja, but it's indeed a very thin line, i think the person were i bought it from has painted the peksi en the ganja to save it from rust.

regards,
Ben

[Jean]

Hello Jean,

It's like David said, old wrapping and glue, i can understand that they were afraid to lose this beautiful hilt :D
To me it looks like a lose ganja, but it's indeed a very thin line, i think the person were i bought it from has painted the peksi en the ganja to save it from rust.

regards,
Ben

OK, thanks for the confirmation and information about this strange black colour of the peksi and ganja.
By the way I am not very familiar with old Balinese blades and would not have identified this one as Balinese, thank you Alan!
Regards
Jean

[Harley]

I hope you guys can help me with another question, the grain in de java
sheaths are vertical, but so far i can see it from pictures on the net, i rather think that in Bali sheaths the grain is horizontal.
Is that right?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Harley, the grain in most Bali scabbards is horizontal.

However, it is not that simple with Javanese scabbards.

The ideal grain orientation for a Javanese scabbard is with the grain running at about 40 degrees from the top right, to the bottom left, with the scabbard facing you.

That is the ideal, but a tukang wrongko will change this ideal orientation to suit the grain of the wood, the size of the wood, and to maximize effect.

In some woods it is not possible to get a piece of wood large enough to allow the ideal grain orientation, for instance, in scented sandalwood pieces large enough to allow cutting across the grain have become quite rare.

The examples:-

A--- shown in reverse to allow better ID of grain orientation; this is a typical, village quality Bali scabbard

B--- better quality Bali in timoho

C--- the angle of the grain in this East Javanese scabbard is a trifle too steep.

D--- Solo, and the angle is far too steep, almost vertical

E--- Solo, and the grain is absolutely horizontal, dictated by the size of the wood available.

F--- Solo, and the angle is close to ideal.

G--- Solo, and carved to maximize grain effect.

Mostly fancy grain in a log is maximised by quarter sawing that log, and this is the way we achieve the best results with fancy grains such as feather crotch( Jawa:- simbar), but the tukang wrongko does not have control over the sawing of the log, he gets a precut plank or even a roughed out bakalan , and he needs to make the best of what he has been given.

[David]

Thanks for this illustrated post Alan. Very good information...

[Harley]

I am glad that it is, i was already started, with the risk of trowing it away when i was wrong. :)
I did not expected it was so complicated with the Javanese scabbard, but now i know and can take it to my advance.
I am purely a hobbyist, ho wants to do his best to restore the neglected keris,
cause over here there are a lot of them.
I definitely have not the skills of the craftsmen in Indonesie, not even by far,
but i like doing it.
The examples are really beautiful, very good for inspiration, i see that i had a different example then the Bali gayaman that are placed.
This is what i have done so far, of course it's only the rough form.
Thank you Mr Maisey for your explanation!

[A. G. Maisey]

Looks good Harley, you've got talent.

But don't forget the contouring, this is difficult to see in photos and you really need an example in the hand to follow.

[Sajen]

Looks good Harley, you've got talent.



This I only can confirm! :eek:

[Harley]

Thank you,

But don't give me to much credit, this was the easy part.
As Mr Maisey mentioned, the contours are more difficult to do, but we'll see.
If i don't place pictures anymore, then you can count it's in the bin, and i have to start all over again :D

regards,
Ben

[Sajen]

Hello Harley,

which wood you have used?

Regards,

Detlef

[Harley]

Hello Sajen,

I really don't no, my father in law gave it to me 20 years ago to make a very stable workbench :D, but now i have a better use for it.
The only thing i can tell you that it is hardwood, en i can remember that there was a stamp on from Indonesia.
Thats all i know about it, sorry.

regards,
Ben

[Harley]

I hope i am still on the right track, if not i hope you will let me know.
Tomorrow i start with the gandar, and if it fits, then i can do the final finish of the sheath, but thats gone take some time.

regards,
Ben

[A. G. Maisey]

Looks OK to me Ben.

The central rib that runs up the front of the atasan should ideally align with the center of the pesi. They often don't, and its no big deal if they don't, but experienced tukang wrongkos will always try to achieve this.

[Harley]

Thanks Mr Maisey,

The rib and curls are not ready jet, i rather leave everything a little bit thicker,
so it's not easily broken, if everything is almost done then i can fine tune it.
I have drilled a hole at the middle of the sheet that aligns with the rib, so hopefully i can achieve that, thanks for the tip!

[Harley]

This is were i am now, the curls and the hole sheath need a lot of sanding, with polish sandpaper before i can try the pelet.
In the old sheath the wilah didn't go all the way in, in the new sheath let em drop a little further, but not all the way.
I don't no if thats normal for Bali sheaths?

regards Ben

[A. G. Maisey]

Very good Harley, but the fit of the blade is incorrect.

The curve of the top of the gonjo needs to be the same as the curve of the top of the atasan.

It can be exactly level with the top of the atasan or it can sit a bit higher than the top of the atasan, which is the old style way of fitting a Bali blade, but the sirah cecak cannot sit higher than the atasan, as you have it at the moment.

If it is impossible to get the curve of the top of the atasan the same as the curve of the top of the gonjo, it is preferable to sink the blade into the atasan, so that the sirah cecak is exactly level and the buntut urang is below the top of the atasan.

Another solution where exact alignment cannot be managed is to sit the blade so that both buntut urang and sirah cecak are dead level with the top of the atasan, and the center section of the gonjo sits a little bit high.

The one thing that is absolutely unacceptable is to have the sirah cecak sitting higher than the top of the atasan, as you have it at the moment.

Putting aside things that you could not be expected to know, the overall form is very, very good. Your craftsmanship appears to be excellent, based upon what I can see in the photo.

[Harley]

Mr Maisey,

First of all thank you for giving a honest reply, cause thats the way for me to learn.
I think i can make the gonjo line up with the atasan, i have don a little sanding, and it's not exactly the right curve, but it's no problem to fix that.
I alway leave the fine tunning till the last, so i can do some adjusting.
Thank you for the compliment, but i think the only thing i have is a little more patience then some of us.

regards,
Ben

[A. G. Maisey]

Harley, I grew up surrounded by fine art cabinet work.

I can recognise skill in the working of wood when I see it. Yes, patience is important, but it is useless if one has five thumbs on each hand.

[Sajen]

Putting aside things that you could not be expected to know, the overall form is very, very good. Your craftsmanship appears to be excellent, based upon what I can see in the photo.

This I only can confirm! Also from me a great compliment to your craftmanship!
:eek: :) ;)

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Hello Harley,

maybe it will be from some help to show one of my Bali keris with the same wrongko form. I believe that this is an old ensemble which belong together.

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, your blade appears to have sunken further into the atasan with age, it is also possible that the front of the mouth in the atasan has been extended a couple of mm. to provide clearance for the front part of the blade, we sometimes see this where it is necessary to clear the kembang kacang.

Harley should try to get a neat all around fit, with the top of the ganja either slightly above the top of of the atasan, but at the same curve as the atasan, or dead level with the top of the atasan.

[Sajen]

Detlef, your blade appears to have sunken further into the atasan with age, it is also possible that the front of the mouth in the atasan has been extended a couple of mm. to provide clearance for the front part of the blade, we sometimes see this where it is necessary to clear the kembang kacang.


Hello Alan,

the first guess it is in my opinion.

[Sajen]

Harley should try to get a neat all around fit, with the top of the ganja either slightly above the top of of the atasan, but at the same curve as the atasan, or dead level with the top of the atasan.

Agree! :)

[Rick]

This I only can confirm! Also from me a great compliment to your craftmanship!
:eek: :) ;)

Regards,

Detlef

Indeed !
Someone is hiding their light under a bushel . ;) :)

Detlef, is that painted kendit that I see ?

[A. G. Maisey]

Sorry Detlef, its not two guesses, I am referring to two separate things which can exist either separately, or together.

The longer wrongko mouth because of a need to allow the blade to enter; the sunken gonjo because of age.

[Sajen]

Indeed !
Someone is hiding their light under a bushel . ;) :)

Detlef, is that painted kendit that I see ?

Yes Rick, I think that it is a painted kendit.

[Harley]

Thanks guys for the compliments, and that you're willing to try to get me in the right direction!

I've tried to change it a little bit, is this a little bit more acceptable?

regards,
Ben

[Sajen]

Sorry Detlef, its not two guesses, I am referring to two separate things which can exist either separately, or together.

The longer wrongko mouth because of a need to allow the blade to enter; the sunken gonjo because of age.


Hello Alan,

I only want to confirm that it is in this case the sunken gonjo because of age.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Thanks guys for the compliments, and that you're willing to try to get me in the right direction!

I've tried to change it a little bit, is this a little bit more acceptable?

regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

good and acceptable! But I personal wouldn't let stick out the blade so much from the wrongko.

Regards,

Detlef

[Harley]

Hi Detlef,

I personally prefer it as it rises a little bit above the sheath, now its about 2mm above, with the old sheath it was 3/4mm.
Is your preference to sink it all the way in, or is the 2 mm just to high?

regards,
Ben

[Gustav]

Gentlemen, lease take a look on this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11388&highlight=gonjo+sitting, specially post #15.

Ben, it is your decision of course, yet it seems to be absolutely sure that gonjo should be visible on Balinese keris, and 2mm could be fine.

[Harley]

Thanks Gustav,

That makes the choice easy, then i for sure leave him as it is.

regards,
Ben

[Sajen]

Gentlemen, lease take a look on this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11388&highlight=gonjo+sitting, specially post #15.

Ben, it is your decision of course, yet it seems to be absolutely sure that gonjo should be visible on Balinese keris, and 2mm could be fine.


You are absolutely right Gustav, look for example my keris in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13650

I reffering about my personal taste. :)

Regards,

Detlef

[Harley]

Hi Detlef,

I have been looking at the link you placed, but that is a real eye cacher :eek:
Especially the blade after the warangan, very, very nice!

regards,
Ben

[A. G. Maisey]

As advised in my post #35, the old style of blade fit was to sit the gonjo proud of the atasan; the more usual fit is to sit the gonjo level with the atasan.

My own observations tend to indicate that in the olden times keris of the aristocracy were mounted in what has been identified as the old way, whilst the keris of commoners were mounted with the gonjo level with the top of the atasan.

I have in my possession a keris that was once the property of the Raja of Badung. This keris was probably mounted to this wrongko in the second half of the 19th century. At its edge, the center of the gonjo sits 4mm above the top of the gonjo.

[Jussi M.]

(...) the old style of blade fit was to sit the gonjo proud of the atasan; the more usual fit is to sit the gonjo level with the atasan.

My own observations tend to indicate that in the olden times keris of the aristocracy were mounted in what has been identified as the old way, whilst the keris of commoners were mounted with the gonjo level with the top of the atasan.

Kinatah?

Awesome work by the way :)

Thanks,

J.

[Harley]

I am trying to make a new hilt, i don't know what the name of this type is,
but i think if you see the picture you no what i mean :)
Later on i put some rope around it, but for now i hope you can give me advice, cause i can't make out of he's to big or not.

regards,
Ben

[A. G. Maisey]

Ben, what you have at the moment is similar to a cenangan hilt, however, the two little raised sections internal to the pommel and the cap section at the lower end don't really have a place in cenangan patterns that I have seen.

If you wrap this with twine, it will become a loncengan

Here is a pic of a loncengan, probably more usual in Lombok than in Bali.

Proportion is within acceptable parameters, but it is possible that a little shorter might be better, however, it is also possible that the photo is lying to me.

[Harley]

The one in the picture(loncengan) is the same as i was trying to make, the raised sections where there to stop the rope/twine?
I couldn't decide if it was right hight, and if you doubt that it's a little to big, it probably is, i think it's about 12 cm.
But now i know that is more common in Lombok i must decide if this is the right hilt for this keris, it's a pity i like the shape.
Thanks again Mr Maisey!

regards,
Ben

[A. G. Maisey]

Harley, with the size of a hilt, its a matter of proportion, not measurable height --- well, at least with Bali keris it is, because with Bali keris the size of the wrongko can vary quite a lot, with Jawa keris the sizes and consequently the proportions are very much more disciplined.

I can't be certain if the hilt is a whisker too long or not, because a very slight difference in the angle of the photo can make a difference in the perceived proportion. I wouldn't alter the proportion, were I you, its within acceptable parameters.

Do you have any images of a cenangan that you can copy? What you have produced is already very close.

[Marcokeris]

You are absolutely right Gustav, look for example my keris in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13650

I reffering about my personal taste. :)

Regards,

Detlef
Very very nice . What kind of wood (is root?) :eek:

[Harley]

Do you have any images of a cenangan that you can copy? What you have produced is already very close.

I have been searching for it, and found 4 pic' s here on the forum, but the ones that i see here have a lot of beams over the entire hilt, or is that a sort of free style?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7035

[Sajen]

Very very nice . What kind of wood (is root?) :eek:


Hello Marco,

thank you. :) I still think that it is gembal jati (teak burl wood).

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

I have been searching for it, and found 4 pic' s here on the forum, but the ones that i see here have a lot of beams over the entire hilt, or is that a sort of free style?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7035

Hi Harley,

I think that the both hilts from this thread are recent.

Regards,

Detlef

[Harley]

Thanks Detlef,

Do you know where i can find a picture of a cenangan?

regards,
Ben

[Sajen]

Thanks Detlef,

Do you know where i can find a picture of a cenangan?

regards,
Ben

I will look for, let me time until tomorrow. But maybe someone more fast as I am?
;) :shrug:

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

The cenangan form is scarce. I suspect it is a pretty recent form, and a development and simplification of the gerantim form.

The two cenangan in Harley's link are recent, and the only photos I could find of cenangan hilts are also over-blown recent ones.

Essentially, the cenangan is the gerantim without the sprout on top.

Pictured is a gerantim --- with sprout--- and the same hilt with the sprout painted out, which makes it a cenangan.

Ben, this would be an easy hilt for you to use as a model:- reduce the raised parts that I commented on previously, and give them a bit of a curve, and you've just about done the job. The checkering is not necessary, this is the only Bali hilt I've seen that had checkering.


Re the wood:- yes, it is jati gembol.

[Harley]

I am glad I'm not the only one that couldn't find it :D
Yes the gerantim is close to what i have now, and the rest is easy to adjust.
But now I know what it looks like, i have found this picture, is that the cenangan?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, but modern and not particularly good quality.

[Harley]

Yes, but modern and not particularly good quality.

It wouldn't be my choice either, but isn't the gerantim also more common on Lombok?
If not i am going for the gerantim.

Thanks Mr Maisey.

[A. G. Maisey]

No, gerantim was not more common on Lombok. In past times it was a hilt normally used by the nobility of Bali, most especially in the form which was wrapped with woven gold.

Ben, you cannot convert your present almost cenangan into a gerantim, because then the proportions will definitely be wrong. If you want to do gerantim you'll need to start again and take account of the sprout on top, however, a gerantim out of plain wood seems to me to just a little unfitting.

You could bind what you have with twine and have a loncengan, but although these are not out of place on Bali, they were more common on Lombok.

Or you can slightly modify what you have a finish up with a pretty acceptable cenangan.

[Harley]

I am sorry Mr Maisey, but i meant the gerantim that you adjusted, without the sprout, and there was my mistake, then is was a cenangan :o
Maybe i start again with a new one, and make the top, middle, en bottom apart,
that way i always can change the proportions, and i think it's nicer with a difference in grain.
But we'll see.

regards,
Ben

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Ben. Understood.

[Jean]

Some more specimens of cenangan style hilts having some age.
Best regards

[David]

Some more specimens of cenangan style hilts having some age.
Best regards
Jean, why do you believe these specimens have some age? :shrug:

[Harley]

Thanks Jean,

They are much better looking then the ones i found.
In the last 2 pictures you can see swastika's in the engraving!

regards,
Ben

[Sajen]

Here two more, again taken from the book "Keris Bali Bersejarah".

[Jean]

Jean, why do you believe these specimens have some age? :shrug:

Hehe, just because I bought them more than 15 years ago and they were in the same condition as today (used)... :) Of course I don't mean that they are old, but at least 20 to 30 years.
Regards

[Jean]

Thanks Jean,

They are much better looking then the ones i found.
In the last 2 pictures you can see swastika's in the engraving!

regards,
Ben

You are right about the engraved swastika Hindu motif which is common in Bali/ Lombok. This polychrome wooden hilt is part of an old family kris from Lombok.
The second hilt made from bone has a turtle skin cover, and the first one is made from bone and black horn.
Best regards
Jean

[Harley]

Thank you Detlef,

The one on the right is very nice!


Jean,

It was kind a strange to see that, but now i get it, thanks for the explanation!

regards,
Ben

[David]

Hehe, just because I bought them more than 15 years ago and they were in the same condition as today (used)... :) Of course I don't mean that they are old, but at least 20 to 30 years.
Regards
Fair enough Jean, but that would make them fairly contemporary in my book.

[David]

You are right about the engraved swastika Hindu motif which is common in Bali/ Lombok. This polychrome wooden hilt is part of an old family kris from Lombok.
It is my understanding that the swastika is considered a symbol of Ganesha in Hindu practice.

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually Ganesh adopted the svastika as one of his symbols.

The symbol itself has existed in Hindu belief for very much longer than Ganesh, and in Hindu belief generally it is understood as a positive sign; since Ganesh is the diety who is concerned with beginnings and success, it is fitting that this symbol should have been adopted for use by Ganesh.

Ganesh has probably only existed as a Hindu deity since around the 3rd or 4th century current era, and the sect of Ganapatya where Ganesh is recognised as the supreme deity did not arise until about the 800's or 900's.

In Hindu belief we say "svastika", not "swastika". The root is Sanscrit:- "asti" which means "it is", a positive affirmation. I've forgotten the "su" and "ka" meaings, but I think "su" might be an intensifier, and "ka" indicates the word form.

[tunggulametung]

Hello, this swastika ornamentation is more commonly known as "patra Cina" in Bali. Thanks :)

[Harley]

Now guys, this is where i am now, the hilt is to thin, the length is in my opinion ok, also i think there must be some engraving on the middle piece, or some raised sections like the picture on the right from Detlef, so i must make a new one.
I've made sheath dark because i didn't like the light color with the pelet, but i can adjust it to lighter or darker.

regards,
Ben

[A. G. Maisey]

I've seen many genuine Bali ensembles that are worse than this. Ben. You've done a good job.

If you feel that you need to do the hilt again, may I suggest that you very carefully study the proportions of any published examples you can find and try to copy those proportions? My feeling is that hilt may be a whisker too long.

[Harley]

Thanks Mr Maisey, that is a very big compliment!

When i looked at it in real live, it seemed OK to me, but in the picture i does look
a bit to long.
It's no problem to get the proportions of the picture when you got the height,
but i now have the reference of this one, and a couple of nice examples!
If i get it right i shall post a picture here.
Thanks everyone for helping out!

regards,
Ben

[Sajen]

Hi Harley,

great job you have done! :) :cool: The handle look a little bit to big/long but still ok!

Regards,

Detlef

[sirek]

Very nice result, :)

[Harley]

Thanks Guys,

Kind of stupid of me, i had made this hilt in sections, now i have shorted it a bit, let me now what you think.
I am still gonna make a new one, but if this is more in the direction, it's easier to get the proportion.

regards,
Ben

By the way, this is not the original blade, thats why it don't correspond with the middle :D

[Sajen]

Look much better! :)

Regards,

Detlef

[Harley]

Thank you Detlef!

regards,
Ben

[Harley]

I promised a picture of the hilt when it was ready, i have chosen a whole different kind of hilt, because i didn't get the proportions right.
It's still not completely finessed, i must sand it a little more, and i want to make it darker so it fit's more by the sheath.

regards,
Ben

[Jean]

I promised a picture of the hilt when it was ready, i have chosen a whole different kind of hilt, because i didn't get the proportions right.
It's still not completely finessed, i must sand it a little more, and i want to make it darker so it fit's more by the sheath.

regards,
Ben

Ben,
It looks a good job but be sure that the sizes of the 11 notches are well balanced (not clear from your picture but the bottom notch seems smaller than the others, see an old specimen from Lombok for reference).
Regards

[Harley]

Hi Jean,

Thanks for mentioning that, it is smaller then the other ones, but easy to adjust.
Alan warned me a time ago that it is very difficult to work from a picture,
and i must agree to that, but still i had to try :D
The picture i was working from is coming from this forum, i don't know who ones it, (sorry for that), i put i here, so it's easier to compare.
I hope that you don't mind Jean that i save your pictures for the reference.

regards,
Ben

[Jean]

Hi Jean,

Thanks for mentioning that, it is smaller then the other ones, but easy to adjust.
I hope that you don't mind Jean that i save your pictures for the reference.

regards,
Ben

Hello Ben,
Of course no problem for saving my pictures!
My specimen is quite rustic and very big (14 cm, for a warrior's kris!) and it has a straight shape. The other one seems Balinese and of smaller size and more elegant so you may prefer to copy it. :)
Best regards

[Harley]

Thank you Jean,

I keep the one that's on there right now, I am gonna adjust it, but sometimes when i am bored i' m trying to make some hilts that I've seen, and now you told the height is even better for reference! :D

regards,
Ben