Interesting Unusual Rapier for comments

[Atlantia]

Firstly I need to express my huge gratitude to my friend Jim McDougall who not only works very hard to make these forums a welcoming and informative place but also uses his valuable 'free time' to spend literally hours researching this sword for me.

Jim! You are a:

[Atlantia]

Right! So now to business.
Here is my latest sword.
Some stats, blade 32", overall 38". Point of balance 3-1/2" down the blade. Balance is beautiful.
I'm just going to post pictures and let Jim (if he wouldn't mind) tell you about what he has found for me.

[Matchlock]

Firstly I need to express my huge gratitude to my friend Jim McDougall who not only works very hard to make these forums a welcoming and informative place but also uses his valuable 'free time' to spend literally hours researching this sword for me.
Jim! You are a:


Hi Gene,

You took the words right out of my mouth: our friend Jim not only is the Good and Guiding Spirit of our forum but also and doubtlessly our most widely read professor and perhaps the only one to be eager enough to try to do his best and work his way into the strangest topics to be discussed here!
Thank you so much, Jim!!! You are not just our star but one of the very few true warriors around!!! :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Gene,

In my opinion, your rapier can be classified as a 19th c. Historismus (Victorian) hilt in late 16th c. style, with an older blade recycled.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

... I'm just going to post pictures and let Jim (if he wouldn't mind) tell you about what he has found for me.

So we can't have a guess before that !

.

[fernando]

Hi Gene,

In my opinion, your rapier can be classified as a 19th c. Historismus (Victorian) hilt in late 16th c. style, with an older blade recycled.

Best,
Michael

Oh, i was gonna say Manufre Rle du Klingenthal 1825-1830, Poinçons COLLIOTdela HATTAIS Augustin, Mathurin
:o :shrug:

[fernando]

... Jim!!! ... You are not just our star but one of the very few true warriors around!!! :cool: :eek:

An warrior yes ... but not an old warrior :cool: :eek: :D

[Matchlock]

Exactly, 'Nando,

The blade is of early 19th c. date.

m

[Atlantia]

Hi gentlemen.

Another teaser pic. Notice that one shell is slightly larger?

[Atlantia]

Nicely peened tang

[Atlantia]

Oh, i was gonna say Manufre Rle du Klingenthal 1825-1830, Poinçons COLLIOTdela HATTAIS Augustin, Mathurin
:o :shrug:

Sorry mate, what does that mean?

[Atlantia]

Comparison with other rapiers and swords showing the similarity in length to 19thC sabres

[fernando]

Sorry mate, what does that mean?

That mark on the blade is so much like that of an inspector "poinçon" at the French Manufacture de Klingenthal.
... And the few letters readable on the ricasso could match with the word Klingenthal.
But let's hear what Jim has to say about this sword :cool: .

.

[fernando]

Hi gentlemen.

Another teaser pic. Notice that one shell is slightly larger?

Other things have such particularity :o :eek:

[Dmitry]

Imho this sword is a fantasy from the Victorian period. Blade is from a French officer's epee from around 1830 onward, and is marked Klingenthal, with inspector's poincon. The hilt is more subjective to ascertain, but to me it looks grotesque, and doesn't reflect the period it's supposed to emulate.
Just my $.02

[Matchlock]

Well done, Gene,

A homogeneous 19th c. collection. ;)

Best,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Wow! Gene thank you and Nando and Michael for the very kind accolade :)
undeserved, but very gratefully accepted! I was more than delighted, as always, to have the opportunity to research and learn from this most interesting rapier. I am really glad he posted it here as mine is most certainly not the last word on this or any other weapon, and you guys out there are part of the collective knowledge we share here.

Case in point, well done Fernando on the Klingenthal attribution and that poincon!!! I have no resources on French swords here as most my emphasis is on Solingen, and the Solingen in script fell in place with spurious marks which they of course were known to use. In researching most efforts were to try to locate element styles which are incorporated into this hilt, which as noted are grouped from various classic pieces. What I found were mostly 16th century, and of course the north and low countries cavalry walloons type pierced disc shellguards, of the same effect in degree seen in many pappenheimer forms (though these are angled vertically in more developed hilts).

The blade, now seen as pointed out being French officers sword sets the period as noted, but the Solingen script curious. I think Michael's attribution is accurate for Victorian piece using earlier or period French blade (the Victorian era began 1837).

I had expressed to Gene that there seems to have been a practice for some time in 18th c. Solingen in producing classical type swords, such as pappenheimers for export to low countries. By this time these rapiers were of course largely obsolete, however it does seem that classical forms persisted perhaps in various auxiliary, remote or colonial and militia type circumstances such weapons may have seen longer use. It does not seem unlikely that Klingenthal might have also participated in such products. The bilobate arrangement of the discs is quite similar to 19th century French fencing epee form.

I know that in colonial New Spain, the famed Spanish cuphilt remained in use long after it had been considered obsolete, not only through the 18th century but into the 19th. Shipments of thin Solingen made rapier blades are known well into those periods, however the majority of 'cuphilts' hilted in these regions used the heavier arming 'dragoon' blades later, a classic style hilt using a 'modern' type blade in military circumstances.

I would submit, is it not possible that military fraternal groups, or auxiliary units in certain regions might select traditionally oriented weapons which represented earlier fashions and panache. This is a well balanced and classically appointed weapon , and well made despite the the admittedly workmanlike elements such as the discs and the knucklebow swell. If these rather rugged looking components seem unseemly, we should recall the 'cut steel' smallsword fashions in England with the patterns of Matthew Boulton (end of 18th century) and the 'Industrial Revolution' styling popular at the time.

Those are my thoughts, and thank you guys for the kind words and confidence....but clearly ...Fernando.....guessing????!!! NOT! :)

I think a very sound rapier which despite being anachronistic, still has some interesting possibilities in being such a well made piece with most formidable blade.

All best regards,
Jim

[Atlantia]

Imho this sword is a fantasy from the Victorian period. Blade is from a French officer's epee from around 1830 onward, and is marked Klingenthal, with inspector's poincon. The hilt is more subjective to ascertain, but to me it looks grotesque, and doesn't reflect the period it's supposed to emulate.
Just my $.02


Hi Dmitry.

Obviously beauty is subjective, but we don't know what the hilt was meant to represent. Clearly it has elements of other and earlier swords, but it was made at a time when revival was popular and even 'grotesque' hilts were sometimes in vogue ;)

Who made it and why, I guess I might never know.
But the strange hilt is tight, and solid. The twisted wire-bound grip is a beauty and offers great grip and 'feel', the tang is solidly peened and the balance is perfect! It feels fast, solid and deadly and although I've not fenced in many years due to injury, I would feel fairly confident in demanding 'satisfaction' with it, if you dared call it 'grotesque' to my face ;)

I think it is 'fantastique'!

Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

Other things have such particularity :o :eek:

Indeed, do you remember the 'horses mouth' shape?

[Atlantia]

That mark on the blade is so much like that of an inspector "poinçon" at the French Manufacture de Klingenthal.
... And the few letters readable on the ricasso could match with the word Klingenthal.
But let's hear what Jim has to say about this sword :cool: .

.

Good catch Nando. Well spotted :D

[Atlantia]

Hi Gene,

In my opinion, your rapier can be classified as a 19th c. Historismus (Victorian) hilt in late 16th c. style, with an older blade recycled.

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

I do find these late anomalies to be very interesting. I've had and seen some very fancy 19thC constructions before, but this one although plainer than many, has the edge in balance and functionality.
I'm very pleased with it :)
Thanks again
Gene

[Atlantia]

Wow! Gene thank you and Nando and Michael for the very kind accolade :)
undeserved, but very gratefully accepted! I was more than delighted, as always, to have the opportunity to research and learn from this most interesting rapier. I am really glad he posted it here as mine is most certainly not the last word on this or any other weapon, and you guys out there are part of the collective knowledge we share here.

Case in point, well done Fernando on the Klingenthal attribution and that poincon!!! I have no resources on French swords here as most my emphasis is on Solingen, and the Solingen in script fell in place with spurious marks which they of course were known to use. In researching most efforts were to try to locate element styles which are incorporated into this hilt, which as noted are grouped from various classic pieces. What I found were mostly 16th century, and of course the north and low countries cavalry walloons type pierced disc shellguards, of the same effect in degree seen in many pappenheimer forms (though these are angled vertically in more developed hilts).

The blade, now seen as pointed out being French officers sword sets the period as noted, but the Solingen script curious. I think Michael's attribution is accurate for Victorian piece using earlier or period French blade (the Victorian era began 1837).

I had expressed to Gene that there seems to have been a practice for some time in 18th c. Solingen in producing classical type swords, such as pappenheimers for export to low countries. By this time these rapiers were of course largely obsolete, however it does seem that classical forms persisted perhaps in various auxiliary, remote or colonial and militia type circumstances such weapons may have seen longer use. It does not seem unlikely that Klingenthal might have also participated in such products. The bilobate arrangement of the discs is quite similar to 19th century French fencing epee form.

I know that in colonial New Spain, the famed Spanish cuphilt remained in use long after it had been considered obsolete, not only through the 18th century but into the 19th. Shipments of thin Solingen made rapier blades are known well into those periods, however the majority of 'cuphilts' hilted in these regions used the heavier arming 'dragoon' blades later, a classic style hilt using a 'modern' type blade in military circumstances.

I would submit, is it not possible that military fraternal groups, or auxiliary units in certain regions might select traditionally oriented weapons which represented earlier fashions and panache. This is a well balanced and classically appointed weapon , and well made despite the the admittedly workmanlike elements such as the discs and the knucklebow swell. If these rather rugged looking components seem unseemly, we should recall the 'cut steel' smallsword fashions in England with the patterns of Matthew Boulton (end of 18th century) and the 'Industrial Revolution' styling popular at the time.

Those are my thoughts, and thank you guys for the kind words and confidence....but clearly ...Fernando.....guessing????!!! NOT! :)

I think a very sound rapier which despite being anachronistic, still has some interesting possibilities in being such a well made piece with most formidable blade.

All best regards,
Jim


Hi Jim,

I'm sure that you can see, when such respected stalwarts of our community as Michael and Nando add their voices to the accolade, it's certainly one that IS well deserved.

We've been discussing this rapier at length of course, and as you know, I was hugely relieved when you were able to confirm that at least some of my 'hopes' for it were not entirely based on wishful thinking.
Basically that this is a genuine blade in an atypical but antique hilt of seemingly mixed style whose origin remains in question.

I am actually rather pleased to hear that the blade is possibly contemporary with the hilt.
I say this because the blade 'feels' like it belongs in this configuration. I also believe that this might have been made this way for a purpose other than decoration or 'fantasy'.

I'm rather pleased with it and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. So now that there is a record of it here, perhaps someone will pin it's origin or even see another!

Thanks for all your kind help Jim.
Best
Gene

[fernando]

Indeed, do you remember the 'horses mouth' shape?
I mean other things ;) ; oh ... forget it :o

[fernando]

... I have no resources on French swords here ...

HERE (http://klingenthal.fr/marquages_coulaux.htm) is the Klingenthal website, already open on the "poinçons" page, with an option for either military or civilian markings.
A pity (for some) that, although this site has a three languages option, the marks section is only in french.

[fernando]

... perhaps someone will pin it's origin or even see another!...
If the blade were German, the sword could be German, French or other.
The blade being French, the sword has a high probabllity to be also French.
... How's that for an approach :eek: .

[Atlantia]

If the blade were German, the sword could be German, French or other.
The blade being French, the sword has a high probabllity to be also French.
... How's that for an approach :eek: .

Exactly what I'm hoping is the case Nando.
Also, if it's French and not English, I'd say there is more likelyhood of it being made for a specific purpose or commission.
Fingers crossed! ;)

[Dmitry]

Hi Dmitry.

Obviously beauty is subjective, but we don't know what the hilt was meant to represent. Clearly it has elements of other and earlier swords, but it was made at a time when revival was popular and even 'grotesque' hilts were sometimes in vogue ;)

Who made it and why, I guess I might never know.
But the strange hilt is tight, and solid. The twisted wire-bound grip is a beauty and offers great grip and 'feel', the tang is solidly peened and the balance is perfect! It feels fast, solid and deadly and although I've not fenced in many years due to injury, I would feel fairly confident in demanding 'satisfaction' with it, if you dared call it 'grotesque' to my face ;)

I think it is 'fantastique'!

Best
Gene

Gene, one of the first swords I bought was a rapier that possibly came from a similar if not the same 1800s-early 1900s workshop. Let me know if you want to see photos of it.

[Atlantia]

Gene, one of the first swords I bought was a rapier that possibly came from a similar if not the same 1800s-early 1900s workshop. Let me know if you want to see photos of it.

Hi Dmitry,
Yes please.

[Dmitry]

.

[Atlantia]

.

Very nice Dmitry!
Not as 'beautiful' as mine of course, but not too shabby ;)
What's the balance like? Interesting similarities to mine. Is the tang 'peened' or does the pommel screw-on? I find that this reinforces my view that these might be more than decorative!
Do you still have it? Where is the point of balance, can we have some stats please?

Thanks for sharing
Gene

[Dmitry]

It's long gone. I sold it [as a replica that it is] on eBay to a Spanish dealer, then somehow it ended up back in the US, and is probably still floating around.

[Atlantia]

Where's everyone else?
There must be others of these?
I bet many of us have got a 'revival' rapier in our collections of one sort or another, even if not a Klingenthal?

[Atlantia]

It's long gone. I sold it [as a replica that it is] on eBay to a Spanish dealer, then somehow it ended up back in the US, and is probably still floating around.

Oh what a shame!
Thanks for sharing anyway.

[Atlantia]

Interestingly, searching the web I'm finding several references to either Dmitry's exact sword or others just like it>

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/coulaux-de-klingenthal-rapier-circa-75843724

Looks like Valjhun has one too
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7570

[Dmitry]

Yep, that's her. She's been a busy girl.

[Jim McDougall]

Yep, that's her. She's been a busy girl.


Yup! She has been a busy girl, and most certainly as each successive owner discovers she is ' not quite what she seems' (memories of ex wives :) she is passed off to the next owner, and so on. Much like Gene's fine example, a truly classical form, or actually composite of them, but done in stately manner, actually not originally intended to deceive but to carry forward traditions of long ago. Most intriguing, actually exciting, of all is that the blade, which bears the poincon of Augusti Mathuri, which as I perceive from the excellent source Fernando suggested, is the name of the inspector c.1830-32 at Klingenthal. The script on Gene's rapier at the forte seems to read Solingen, a curious application if this was made at Klingenthal...the one in similar configuration on Dmitry's rapier appears illegible script...as noted the same poincon.
The obvious and compelling suggestion is indeed, probably the same blade source, and with the equitable styling of the hilts, probably same shop.
Clearly the earliest date 1830 based on the poincon, with the range of probable fabrication probably well into the 'Victorian' period and the 'romantic' movement which was noted as Historimus period in Germany contemporarily.
The fascination in anachronistic items of arms and armour in Europe and Victorian England seems to have been quite literally spurred by literature such as "Ivanhoe" by Sir Walter Scott, and study's and smoking parlors were carefully appointed with items of arms and especially armour of the Middle Ages. It seems that as this propensity continued, there appeared a demand for replica items as availability of actual items diminished and of course and accordingly costs rose.
There was a compelling drive to allude to the noble heritage of times long gone, and as Ernst Schmitt of Munich, one of the best known makers of classical replicas, is described from his work beginning in the 1870s, he did not intend to deceive but to as faithfully copy originals as possible. In many cases if not most, in comparison the two are often indiscernable unless displayed side by side.

The references to Victorian replicas and more disparaging the term 'wall hangers' or at worst, 'fakes' have been applied to many of these, however many of these, or in my opinion all, are venerable antiques in thier own right.

While establishing that the replicas of the Victorian period are of course well known and authentic in appearance, the course I feel important to follow here is to discover more on the likelihood of Gene's rapier actually being a serviceable weapon, and for that matter Dmitry's, now that it has been shown as a comparable and similar piece. Yes, yes I know.....Victor Hugo would be proud with such run on sentences...but we are talking about classics, yes?!!!:)

In reading on descriptions of replicas of Schmitt's, many of which have been displayed in the most reputable institutions, such as John Woodman Higgins museum in Worcester, Mass. and even the Royal Armouries. Actually the late Ewart Oakeshott even afforded a designation in his esteemed typology, XXI, considered 'modern' reproduction (meaning not of period it represents).
It is worthy of note that in handling one of these replica swords, they are often point heavy in some, and center of percussion and POB are not necessarily attainable.

Gene has described his rapier as well balanced, and quite comfortable in the hand, I think assessments not lightly placed by someone knowledeable in the art of fence. Its construction, while not necessarily in accord with actual pieces of the period (s) represented in the composite grouping of elements, is
well executed for its purpose, not only in possible wear or perhaps ceremonial use. I continue to submit that weapons of classical form known to have been produced well into later times were likely to have been used by civic or fraternal military groups in Europe, and likely fabricated in Klingenthal as well as Solingen. Many Solingen smiths indeed did emigrate to other countries, and it is well known that Alsace (location of Klingenthal) is culturally as much German as it is French.

In the Netherlands, or in the period we are discussing, the Dutch Republic(if I term correctly) from the Napoleonic period onwards had been deeply influenced by France, actually even annexed at one point. The developing of Dutch nationalism, much as throughout Europe, was becoming well established and much as elsewhere, the reflection of important traditions and heritage were keenly evident.

I for one, cannot resist the idea in viewing this interesting rapier, that it may reflect earlier heritage in the classic form elements, such as the very businesslike pierced disc shellguard recalling not only the cavalry swords of 17th century Europe in the general walloon form, but the bilobate rings of French duelling epee's in the 19th century. The classic form of the grip seen in blackened steel form hilts of 18th century court and smallswords (Aylward, 1945) and the closed C knuckleguard terminal (Norman, 1980) and even the rugged assemblage resembling the Industrial period of latter 18th c. England (Boulton's cut steel smallswords)....seem to imply a weapon intended for contemporary use, despite anachronistic form, and in the manner of the 19th century revivalism which may have preceded the larger Historismus movement.

Again, my thoughts of the day :) and I would like very much to hear other views on this in hopes this discussion will continue. Yes, indeed, these 'girls' (the sword is considered the 'queen of weapons') have been busy, and I think they are trying to tell us more.

All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

... The script on Gene's rapier at the forte seems to read Solingen, a curious application if this was made at Klingenthal....


Solingen or Klingenthal. The core is the same; take your choice :cool:
... Mine is Klingethal, for obvious reasons :shrug:

.

[Atlantia]

Solingen or Klingenthal. The core is the same; take your choice :cool:
... Mine is Klingethal, for obvious reasons :shrug:

.


Just so Nando! :)
I've just sat with PSP and I can make them both fit by interpreting the small scratches in the 'blank' areas. Klingenthal seems to fit the available space better, but Solingen certainly also would fit.

If I make it Klingenthal I have to ignore the scratch that would be the top of the 'S'.
Here the usable marks are highlighted in red, the ones I've addes are blue and the scratch that could correspond to the top of the S is not coloured.

[Atlantia]

If I make it Solingen it's a little easier because there are several curling scratches where the 'S' should be. Here's one interpretation of the scratches that I can see.
Red are existing marks and blue added by me.

[fernando]

Just so says i, Gene ;) .
Look at the space left on the right side, if the inscription were Solingen.
Definitely Klingenthal, don't you agree?, matching with inspection mark and everything ... just like Valjhun's example.


.

[Atlantia]

Yup! She has been a busy girl, and most certainly as each successive owner discovers she is ' not quite what she seems' (memories of ex wives :) she is passed off to the next owner, and so on. Much like Gene's fine example, a truly classical form, or actually composite of them, but done in stately manner, actually not originally intended to deceive but to carry forward traditions of long ago. Most intriguing, actually exciting, of all is that the blade, which bears the poincon of Augusti Mathuri, which as I perceive from the excellent source Fernando suggested, is the name of the inspector c.1830-32 at Klingenthal. The script on Gene's rapier at the forte seems to read Solingen, a curious application if this was made at Klingenthal...the one in similar configuration on Dmitry's rapier appears illegible script...as noted the same poincon.
The obvious and compelling suggestion is indeed, probably the same blade source, and with the equitable styling of the hilts, probably same shop.
Clearly the earliest date 1830 based on the poincon, with the range of probable fabrication probably well into the 'Victorian' period and the 'romantic' movement which was noted as Historimus period in Germany contemporarily.
The fascination in anachronistic items of arms and armour in Europe and Victorian England seems to have been quite literally spurred by literature such as "Ivanhoe" by Sir Walter Scott, and study's and smoking parlors were carefully appointed with items of arms and especially armour of the Middle Ages. It seems that as this propensity continued, there appeared a demand for replica items as availability of actual items diminished and of course and accordingly costs rose.
There was a compelling drive to allude to the noble heritage of times long gone, and as Ernst Schmitt of Munich, one of the best known makers of classical replicas, is described from his work beginning in the 1870s, he did not intend to deceive but to as faithfully copy originals as possible. In many cases if not most, in comparison the two are often indiscernable unless displayed side by side.

The references to Victorian replicas and more disparaging the term 'wall hangers' or at worst, 'fakes' have been applied to many of these, however many of these, or in my opinion all, are venerable antiques in thier own right.

While establishing that the replicas of the Victorian period are of course well known and authentic in appearance, the course I feel important to follow here is to discover more on the likelihood of Gene's rapier actually being a serviceable weapon, and for that matter Dmitry's, now that it has been shown as a comparable and similar piece. Yes, yes I know.....Victor Hugo would be proud with such run on sentences...but we are talking about classics, yes?!!!:)

In reading on descriptions of replicas of Schmitt's, many of which have been displayed in the most reputable institutions, such as John Woodman Higgins museum in Worcester, Mass. and even the Royal Armouries. Actually the late Ewart Oakeshott even afforded a designation in his esteemed typology, XXI, considered 'modern' reproduction (meaning not of period it represents).
It is worthy of note that in handling one of these replica swords, they are often point heavy in some, and center of percussion and POB are not necessarily attainable.

Gene has described his rapier as well balanced, and quite comfortable in the hand, I think assessments not lightly placed by someone knowledeable in the art of fence. Its construction, while not necessarily in accord with actual pieces of the period (s) represented in the composite grouping of elements, is
well executed for its purpose, not only in possible wear or perhaps ceremonial use. I continue to submit that weapons of classical form known to have been produced well into later times were likely to have been used by civic or fraternal military groups in Europe, and likely fabricated in Klingenthal as well as Solingen. Many Solingen smiths indeed did emigrate to other countries, and it is well known that Alsace (location of Klingenthal) is culturally as much German as it is French.

In the Netherlands, or in the period we are discussing, the Dutch Republic(if I term correctly) from the Napoleonic period onwards had been deeply influenced by France, actually even annexed at one point. The developing of Dutch nationalism, much as throughout Europe, was becoming well established and much as elsewhere, the reflection of important traditions and heritage were keenly evident.

I for one, cannot resist the idea in viewing this interesting rapier, that it may reflect earlier heritage in the classic form elements, such as the very businesslike pierced disc shellguard recalling not only the cavalry swords of 17th century Europe in the general walloon form, but the bilobate rings of French duelling epee's in the 19th century. The classic form of the grip seen in blackened steel form hilts of 18th century court and smallswords (Aylward, 1945) and the closed C knuckleguard terminal (Norman, 1980) and even the rugged assemblage resembling the Industrial period of latter 18th c. England (Boulton's cut steel smallswords)....seem to imply a weapon intended for contemporary use, despite anachronistic form, and in the manner of the 19th century revivalism which may have preceded the larger Historismus movement.

Again, my thoughts of the day :) and I would like very much to hear other views on this in hopes this discussion will continue. Yes, indeed, these 'girls' (the sword is considered the 'queen of weapons') have been busy, and I think they are trying to tell us more.

All best regards,
Jim


LOL, I think we may have dated similar ladies Jim!

I have to say that I completely agree that these do not qualify as 'replicas' as they are not actual copies of anything.
When they were made they seem to have been made using contemporary military blades with the addition of archaic style hilts.
When I think of victorian copies, I think of elaborate romanticised but reasonably accurate and 'fancy' rapiers, and of course the 'Anton Konrad' type fakes of the 1920s.

I once had a beautiful Victorian cup-hilt rapier with an exquisite pierced blade, pierced and chiseled cup etc. Beautiful thing. Threaded tang and srew-on pomel though. :shrug:
Still, it WAS meant for the wall and nothing else so it was all form over function ;)

Although my fencing days are long behind me, I was an enthusiastic amateur at one stage and although I couldn't now remember any but the most basic terminology I do remember the long practiced moves and counter moves even after all these years.
One of the things that attracted me to this sword was its balance and 'feel'.

Of course it helps that the blade is 'real', but the makers have also had to get the hilt right. The grip is suprisingly comfortable and 'fits' the hand well. The hilt isn't overly heavy and the balance feels right. The tang is peened over very securely as you can see in the pictures. The hilt is completely firm and solid.

It's as 'servicable' a weapon as any other that I own. More so than many in fact.

As you know Jim, I aslo cannot help but think that this sword many have been made for a specific organisation or commisioned for a specific purpose, rather than simply being a decorator piece.

As a final note on 'Victorian rapiers' of the purely decorative/replica type. Frankly I wish I'd bought many of the 'pretty' ones I've seen over the years.
The traditional snobbery of collectors toward these seems ridiculous and misplaced in todays market as prices of contemorary swords of the 19th/early 20th century have continued to rise and prices for authentic rapiers of period date have exceeded most collectors pockets.
Like many other things, there will come a time when we all regret not buying more of these 'Victorian' copies (rapiers and others!).

[Atlantia]

Just so says i, Gene ;) .
Look at the space left on the right side, if the inscription were Solingen.
Definitely Klingenthal, don't you agree?, matching with inspection mark and everything ... just like Valjhun's example.


.

Hi Nando,
I see what you mean. Perhaps Vajhun can help with a comparison shot from his rather nice example?

I've now finished the clean-up on mine and there is a stamped mark on the other side but it's not readable. Doesn't look like there is any script under it either, just some scratches.

[Atlantia]

Here's a quick capture of Valjhuns:

[Dmitry]

Both blades are clearly marked Klingenthal, with post-Napoleonic inspectors' marks. The swords themselves were either wall-hangers or assembled for theatrical/film combat. Just my $.02

[Atlantia]

The swords themselves were either wall-hangers or assembled for theatrical/film combat. Just my $.02

Do you have any evidence at all to support that conclusion Dmitry?

[Dmitry]

Do you have any evidence at all to support that conclusion Dmitry?

Just my $.02.
I see no other purpose to them, other than decorative or theatrical.
19th c. markings on the blades were not removed in attempt to deceive.

[fernando]

Hi Gene,
Me too, i wouldn't reject the idea that someone bought a bundle of blades at the Klingenthal surplus depot and made a few 'appealing' swords for the noveau riche to ostentate in their brand new mansions.
The theatrical/movie prop is also a good theory.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Gene! I think we're still pretty much on the same page. I for some reason still feel there was a more sound purpose for these weapons, and I think my pursuit in this direction suggests my apparant 'Quixote syndrome' :)
I suppose that my often near delusional romanticism concerning arms causes my disdain for the categoric dismissal of these as simply wallhangers or 'theatrical' pieces, while that of course is the easy assessment. In what I have learned about our societies in these 18th and 19th century times there were far more romantic delusions in popular culture than typically perceived historically. It seems that the penchant for secret societies, magical allusions, unusual religious and political pursuits in almost cult like character and of course organizations with more regimented character such as the Masons, and many fraternal and military organizations was prevalent in those times.

Often in post war circumstances, while demand for weapons waned, there were notable increases in such societal groupings, and particularly veterans of the military were powerfully represented in these many variant organizations. Political situations also brought national groups into effect who sought to preserve their country's heritage and past glories. The extremely colorful pageantry of today's reeenactment groups have distinct antecedents almost ironically in the periods which they anachronistically represent, in an almost telescopic analogy.

In studying the arms and armour of colonial New Spain, of course with the Conquistadors in the beginning, the images typically issued in literary or art treatments are actually far from how these forces were equipped. There were no 'issue' materials and most individuals were privately supplied. They used all manner of inexpensive surplus and composite items as could be obtained in thier home country, or in arriving supplies brought in. I believe thier 'countenance' :) would have been almost 'Quixotesque'. In studies of the armour used it has been discovered that types long obsolete in Europe had survived in these colonial regions far beyond thier antiquity.

The point is that in most cases, cultures and societies seek to preserve and celebrate thier ancestral heritage, and often this involves unusual or even seemingly 'eccentric' use or anachronistic representation of materials and fashion. In mant instances traditional court and dress weaponry, while appearing ostentatious or ineffective combatively, in surprisingly numerous cases was actually quite serviceable.

As mentioned, sword makers in peacetime often sought related venues to augment diminished demand including of course various tools and implements. However, they were not far removed from the skills and tooling to fashion the swords previously produced nor variations of earlier forms as required. If there were stores of surplus blades still held as orders for certain sword types ceased at end of hostilities or in cases or supercession, then these could certainly have been used for custom requests in varying volume.

There would be no need for trying to 'duplicate' marks, nor to remove them and the makers of these composite classical creations would have been actual swordmakers, not artisans fabricating decorative pieces.

In my opinion the concept of 'theatrical' pieces is often a bit 'overplayed' and as many as it seems have been given such assessment would presume there were virtual hordes of theatrical troupes moving about with huge stockpiles of arms and props. Actually these groups were much more a novelty than even imagined, thus the accordingly notable reception they received when they appeared.
With the idea of wallhangers, it seems there was more attention given in earlier times in replicas to armour than to swords. Actually the availability of 'old swords' was considerably well supplied and it would seem curious that anyone who had the somewhat unusual need to display an old sword would have had ample opportunity to acquire authentic old pieces almost at random. Arms collecting is more a modern phenomenon, though it was practiced in earlier times among certain nobility and gentry in degree. It was not until the latter 19th century that souveniers were gathered and displayed more nominally and these were typically of 'exotic' weapons, while as mentioned the demand for vintage European armour of illustrious heritage was more high end.

BTW, I agree the script would most likely be as Fernando suggested originally and well worked out by he and Gene...Klingenthal.

I guess this typical tirade of mine would be a nickel or so worth :) but my thoughts.

[Atlantia]

I can't understand your reasoning Dmitry. Was yours badly made or deliberately blunted? Did it strike you as a cheaply produced, lightweight, suitable for stage use?

I think I've already said why I feel that it differs from the usual pieces made in this period for pure decoration ('wall hangers') but I agree with that being a somewhat subjective view.
However, made for theatre film? No chance.
I collect film props :)

This sword is too well made, far too heavy and dangerous, too expensive and not suitable for the purpose.
I have seen 'real' swords modified (see below) for possible use in this context and it is understandable that they would be because they were plentiful and cheap 100 years+ ago.
But to use a new, so more expensive, relatively heavy sword with a fine dangerous point would be nigh-on suicidal.

Hell even dropping it could nail someones foot to the floor!

Actors are not professional swordsmen so you don't give them deadly weapons or they will likely kill each other.
Many early stage/film swords had sporting blades, often Epee (or even foil). Often these were remounted in fancy repro or real hilts. Sporting epee blades are of course edgeless and button ended.
Some prop/stage swords had aluminium blades, some have steel 'non blades' etc. Occasionally old swords are used, usually with replacement blades or at least some nod to safety modifications presumably ones used in the cheapest amateur productions (the point removed and blunted edge). depending on the context of use. You get the picture.
Nobody would order prop swords to be made like this.

Also there was no need for 'quality' as there were no high-def close-ups and the combat was simulated.
My sword is too 'well made' for a prop.
Such quality and care of construction is not needed for a prop.

Fencing with a real sword is extremely physically demanding. Hell, fencing with a sporting foil is extremely physically demanding and they weigh almost nothing.
My sword weighs in at 820g. Now despite its excellent balance thats a fair old weight to 'swashbuckle' with.
Try it with one of yours of similar weight.
It's far to heavy and dangerous for stage use.
Try it for a few minutes then imagine that the slightest mistake and you will impale someone on the fine sharp point of this rigid steel military blade.

Even if I was wrong about ALL of that (which I don't think I am), then as an expensive item bought for that purpose, it would have seen extensive use in stage combat, resulting in a frighteningly chewed edge.
It has a few very minor edge clicks only.

The 'wall hanger' theory is possible despite my ideas to the contrary.
But film/theatre? No chance.

[Atlantia]

Thank you Gene! I think we're still pretty much on the same page. I for some reason still feel there was a more sound purpose for these weapons, and I think my pursuit in this direction suggests my apparant 'Quixote syndrome' :)
I suppose that my often near delusional romanticism concerning arms causes my disdain for the categoric dismissal of these as simply wallhangers or 'theatrical' pieces, while that of course is the easy assessment. In what I have learned about our societies in these 18th and 19th century times there were far more romantic delusions in popular culture than typically perceived historically. It seems that the penchant for secret societies, magical allusions, unusual religious and political pursuits in almost cult like character and of course organizations with more regimented character such as the Masons, and many fraternal and military organizations.

Often in post war circumstances, while demand for weapons waned, there were notable increases in such societal groupings, and particularly veterans of the military were powerfully represented in these many variant organizations. Political situations also brought national groups into effect who sought to preserve their country's heritage and past glories. The extremely colorful pageantry of today's reeenactment groups have distinct antecedents almost ironically in the periods which they anachronistically represent, in an almost telescopic analogy.

In studying the arms and armour of colonial New Spain, of course with the Conquistadors in the beginning, the images typically issued in literary or art treatments are actually far from how these forces were equipped. There were no 'issue' materials and most individuals were privately supplied. They used all manner of inexpensive surplus and composite items as could be obtained in thier home country, or in arriving supplies brought in. I believe thier 'countenance' :) would have been almost 'Quixotesque'. In studies of the armour used it has been discovered that types long obsolete in Europe had survived in these colonial regions far beyond thier antiquity.

The point is that in most cases, cultures and societies seek to preserve and celebrate thier ancestral heritage, and often this involves unusual or even seemingly 'eccentric' use or anachronistic representation of materials and fashion. In mant instances traditional court and dress weaponry, while appearing ostentatious or ineffective combatively, in surprisingly numerous cases was actually quite serviceable.

As mentioned, sword makers in peacetime often sought related venues to augment diminished demand including of course various tools and implements. However, they were not far removed from the skills and tooling to fashion the swords previously produced nor variations of earlier forms as required. If there were stores of surplus blades still held as orders for certain sword types ceased at end of hostilities or in cases or supercession, then these could certainly have been used for custom requests in varying volume.

There would be no need for trying to 'duplicate' marks, nor to remove them and the makers of these composite classical creations would have been actual swordmakers, not artisans fabricating decorative pieces.

In my opinion the concept of 'theatrical' pieces is often a bit 'overplayed' and as many as it seems have been given such assessment would presume there were virtual hordes of theatrical troupes moving about with huge stockpiles of arms and props. Actually these groups were much more a novelty than even imagined, thus the accordingly notable reception they received when they appeared.
With the idea of wallhangers, it seems there was more attention given in earlier times in replicas to armour than to swords. Actually the availability of 'old swords' was considerably well supplied and it would seem curious that anyone who had the somewhat unusual need to display an old sword would have had ample opportunity to acquire authentic old pieces almost at random. Arms collecting is more a modern phenomenon, though it was practiced in earlier times among certain nobility and gentry in degree. It was not until the latter 19th century that souveniers were gathered and displayed more nominally and these were typically of 'exotic' weapons, while as mentioned the demand for armour of illustrious heritage was more high end.

BTW, I agree the script would most likely be as Fernando suggested originally and well worked out by he and Gene...Klingenthal.

I guess this typical tirade of mine would be a nickel or so worth :) but my thoughts.


I'd say completely on the same page Jim.
Can't disagree with anything there mate.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Gene!
On the 'theatrical' front, most of what I was thinking of was the theatrical drama troupes in the 19th century or the occassional 'opera house' setting theaters in metropolitan areas.
When it comes to movies etc. the early days, silents and into the 30s it seems that there were plenty of authentic items lying around which ended up stockpiled into props warehouses in Hollywood and surrounding areas. I think quite a few authentic items were worn and used for close up shots and staging, however actual items used were suitably 'adjusted' for action shots. Some were still formidable in certain degree and some of the actors were indeed injured, but it seems usually blunt force type injuries.
Actually with the volume of actual items around, 'the Sheik' himself, Rudolf Valentino actually became a collector of antique swords himself and 'adopted' quite a few of them.
I recall back in the late 60s, early 70s growing up in Southern California some of the studios cleared out some of these warehouses, and some of the local collectors had dreams come true!:)

I recall in my early days back then fencing, and taking stage combat fencing. Ouch! You learned fairly quickly movements required as contact could be pretty convincing. ..but then I kept tripping over my cape!!! :)

All the best,
Jim

[Atlantia]

Thanks Gene!
On the 'theatrical' front, most of what I was thinking of was the theatrical drama troupes in the 19th century or the occassional 'opera house' setting theaters in metropolitan areas.
When it comes to movies etc. the early days, silents and into the 30s it seems that there were plenty of authentic items lying around which ended up stockpiled into props warehouses in Hollywood and surrounding areas. I think quite a few authentic items were worn and used for close up shots and staging, however actual items used were suitably 'adjusted' for action shots. Some were still formidable in certain degree and some of the actors were indeed injured, but it seems usually blunt force type injuries.
Actually with the volume of actual items around, 'the Sheik' himself, Rudolf Valentino actually became a collector of antique swords himself and 'adopted' quite a few of them.
I recall back in the late 60s, early 70s growing up in Southern California some of the studios cleared out some of these warehouses, and some of the local collectors had dreams come true!:)

I recall in my early days back then fencing, and taking stage combat fencing. Ouch! You learned fairly quickly movements required as contact could be pretty convincing. ..but then I kept tripping over my cape!!! :)

All the best,
Jim


LOL, I'm now picturing you swashbuckling your way across the stage Jim!
"take that you blaggard" :D

Fair comment, there were plenty of real swords and myriad other antiques used for background dressing, non combat roles and 'beauty' shots.

Many 'real' ones were cheap though. Often they'd have complete ones for non combat 'hero' props and modified ones of the same type for combat, switching when needed.


Best
Gene

P.S. Any pictures of you on stage in your cape? ;)

[Dmitry]

Gene, I will definitely answer you, but in a short while. It's the Thanksgiving Day here in the old New England.
Tasty turkey to all, and peace!

[Atlantia]

Gene, I will definitely answer you, but in a short while. It's the Thanksgiving Day here in the old New England.
Tasty turkey to all, and peace!

No worries. Happy thanksgiving.

[Dmitry]

I can't understand your reasoning Dmitry. Was yours badly made or deliberately blunted? Did it strike you as a cheaply produced, lightweight, suitable for stage use?

I think I've already said why I feel that it differs from the usual pieces made in this period for pure decoration ('wall hangers') but I agree with that being a somewhat subjective view.
However, made for theatre film? No chance.
I collect film props :)

This sword is too well made, far too heavy and dangerous, too expensive and not suitable for the purpose.
I have seen 'real' swords modified (see below) for possible use in this context and it is understandable that they would be because they were plentiful and cheap 100 years+ ago.
But to use a new, so more expensive, relatively heavy sword with a fine dangerous point would be nigh-on suicidal.

Hell even dropping it could nail someones foot to the floor!

Actors are not professional swordsmen so you don't give them deadly weapons or they will likely kill each other.
Many early stage/film swords had sporting blades, often Epee (or even foil). Often these were remounted in fancy repro or real hilts. Sporting epee blades are of course edgeless and button ended.
Some prop/stage swords had aluminium blades, some have steel 'non blades' etc. Occasionally old swords are used, usually with replacement blades or at least some nod to safety modifications presumably ones used in the cheapest amateur productions (the point removed and blunted edge). depending on the context of use. You get the picture.
Nobody would order prop swords to be made like this.

Also there was no need for 'quality' as there were no high-def close-ups and the combat was simulated.
My sword is too 'well made' for a prop.
Such quality and care of construction is not needed for a prop.

Fencing with a real sword is extremely physically demanding. Hell, fencing with a sporting foil is extremely physically demanding and they weigh almost nothing.
My sword weighs in at 820g. Now despite its excellent balance thats a fair old weight to 'swashbuckle' with.
Try it with one of yours of similar weight.
It's far to heavy and dangerous for stage use.
Try it for a few minutes then imagine that the slightest mistake and you will impale someone on the fine sharp point of this rigid steel military blade.

Even if I was wrong about ALL of that (which I don't think I am), then as an expensive item bought for that purpose, it would have seen extensive use in stage combat, resulting in a frighteningly chewed edge.
It has a few very minor edge clicks only.

The 'wall hanger' theory is possible despite my ideas to the contrary.
But film/theatre? No chance.


Hello, Gene.
The quality of construction really doesn't really carry much weight in this case. As far as the stage props go, there is a number of recent references about actors being injured/ran through/maimed/have eyes gouged out/etc. with stage props.
A simple internet search produced these, all on the first two pages of Google -

Actor Injured in Sword Fight Rehearsal; Hartford Stage Cancels "Antony and Cleopatra" Performance
http://blogs.courant.com/curtain/2010/10/actor-injured-in-sword-fight-r.html

Actor in Samurai Film Injured by Sword on Set
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-01-01/news/mn-189_1_samurai-film

Actor injury causes delay for Mad Cow's 'Rashomon'
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-06-16/entertainment/os-rashomon-mad-cow-spot-20110614_1_minor-injury-mad-cow-theatre-delay

Actor Is Injured in Irish Production of ‘Hamlet’
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/actor-is-injured-in-irish-production-of-hamlet/

Those are all very recent cases, but I'm sure there are many others in the long history of the thespian arts.
Like this one -
Debutante Injured By Sword When Actor Falls
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19291105&id=S-pPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=BlUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2854,4748674

Basically I really don't see any other purpose to having a rapier in the mid to late 1800s, other than for theater or to hang on the wall. It's hard to imagine anyone actually wearing one in the streets as part of a dress.

Just my $.02, which I suggest you take, cause this is what I have left after buying a new house just now.

[Atlantia]

Hello, Gene.
The quality of construction really doesn't really carry much weight in this case. As far as the stage props go, there is a number of recent references about actors being injured/ran through/maimed/have eyes gouged out/etc. with stage props.
A simple internet search produced these, all on the first two pages of Google -

Actor Injured in Sword Fight Rehearsal; Hartford Stage Cancels "Antony and Cleopatra" Performance
http://blogs.courant.com/curtain/2010/10/actor-injured-in-sword-fight-r.html

Actor in Samurai Film Injured by Sword on Set
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-01-01/news/mn-189_1_samurai-film

Actor injury causes delay for Mad Cow's 'Rashomon'
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-06-16/entertainment/os-rashomon-mad-cow-spot-20110614_1_minor-injury-mad-cow-theatre-delay

Actor Is Injured in Irish Production of ‘Hamlet’
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/actor-is-injured-in-irish-production-of-hamlet/

Those are all very recent cases, but I'm sure there are many others in the long history of the thespian arts.
Like this one -
Debutante Injured By Sword When Actor Falls
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19291105&id=S-pPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=BlUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2854,4748674

Basically I really don't see any other purpose to having a rapier in the mid to late 1800s, other than for theater or to hang on the wall. It's hard to imagine anyone actually wearing one in the streets as part of a dress.

Just my $.02, which I suggest you take, cause this is what I have left after buying a new house just now.

Hi Dmitry,

Thanks for taking the time to try and evidence your theory. I think it means that we can now at least discount the prop theory.
You have clearly searched quite hard for some supporting evidence and not found any that supports your theory, but you have found cases that illustrate the points that I've already made.
You seem to be drawing the wrong conclusion?

Firstly of course there have been MANY injuries caused in stage combat over the years. But you don't seem to have found any that fit the criteria of the weapon we are discussing.
It seems that your 'evidence' actually supports my reasoning and undermines your argument that a weapon of this fine and solid construction would be made specifically for theatre use, especially in the time period in question.

Of course the first problem as you have admitted is that these are mostly modern cases so of limited relevance. But lets have a look at them anyway.

To quote your sources:


"An actor filming a samurai drama was seriously injured in a battle scene when a real sword was accidentally substituted for a fake one"

-Confirming what I've been saying in previous posts.

"the accident occurred with the point of the dulled but real sword"

-As I have already said, real swords are not left with sharp edges or fine points. It would also of course be illogical to make a prop with a real blade that would be more costly (at the time) than simply buying a genuine item and grinding the edge/point off or replacing the blade with a 'stunt' suitable one, or making a prop with a stunt blade to emulate a real sword etc.

"The actor was injured while rehearsing a sword-fight scene when he landed incorrectly on his foot."

-Um did you read your sources Dmitry? This one is essentially not connected to the weapon, it was more a twisted ankle by the sounds of it.

"sustained a palpable and frightening hit during a performance on Monday, resulting in his hospitalization (edit) a cut beneath his eye and collapsed on stage"

-Blade/sword type not mentioned. Faces can be cut by blunt force, or really any 'hit'. We can't determine if the blade was 'real' or a fencing blade or an aluminium one, or a fibreglass one.

"An actors sword jostled from his hand as he fell" (Injuring a Debutante)

-Nothing there really, sounds (again) like it was a real sword being used on set and he dropped it to me?

As I've said all along Dmitry, was it made to hang on the wall?
Possibly, but I'm not convinced (for the reasons outlined previously)

Was it a theatre/film prop?
Well, I think your 2c was well spent as I think you've shown now that it wasn't.

As for not being able to imagine other uses for a rapier-esq sword in the 19thC, have you read Jim's thoughts?

Thanks for your time. Congrats on the new house.
Gene

[Jim McDougall]

Gene! Sensational riposte!!!!! La!!!!! :)

All the best,
Jim

[Dmitry]

I recall back in the late 60s, early 70s growing up in Southern California some of the studios cleared out some of these warehouses, and some of the local collectors had dreams come true!:)



I forget the name of that company, Hollywood House of Props or something like that; they auctioned off hundreds of swords, some newly-made, but many composites with antique hilts + new blades, and vice versa. Bannerman also sold composites assembled from new and old parts.

This company, Hollywood Prop Supply, sells film/stage props which have steel blades, not plastic.
http://www.hollywoodpropsupply.com/NewEdgedW.html

[Atlantia]

I forget the name of that company, Hollywood House of Props or something like that; they auctioned off hundreds of swords, some newly-made, but many composites with antique hilts + new blades, and vice versa. Bannerman also sold composites assembled from new and old parts.

This company, Hollywood Prop Supply, sells film/stage props which have steel blades, not plastic.
http://www.hollywoodpropsupply.com/NewEdgedW.html


Hi Dmitry,
these are just modern reproduction swords being sold for movie costuming use. Indian made by companies like Windlass, they are primarily just reproductions, readily availabe to the public as such on various websites. Much cheaper now than using the real thing but again, these are NOT for stage combat. They are dressing props, costuming.

There is only a superficial connection to this discussion.

You correctly repeat from my earlier observations that it was commonplace to use real swords that were cheap and plentiful for costuming/dressing scenes and to have modified versions of those same swords (sometimes with their blades replaced) for stage/staged combat.

What you seem to be trying to say is that in a time when genuine swords were plentiful, cheap and readily available in bulk quantities of identical type, or that classic 'rapier' type swords were routinely made from marrying fencing blades with a variety of other hilts, that film/theatre costumers were instead opting for more expensive, intiricate and historically incorrect individually hand made swords that were basically unift for purpose in the configuration that you'd have us believe they were received.
Why order a deadly, unmodified, heavy, military blade on a 'fantasy' prop?
Why have the hilt hand made from steel and not instead opt for (as many were) a cast base metal of flashy design with a 'safe' fencing epee blade suitable for stage combat or costuming?
Show me some provenanced period examples?

[Atlantia]

So, I'm going to throw some other suggestions out there.
I personally feel that there are a few options for this sword. Clearly the hilt is not a copy of any particular style, especially when married with a military blade. This is not a typical copy or 19thC reproduction.

Heavy military blade, good balance, peened tang, solid construction, etc. Quite fit for purpose.
I believe that it was professionally made in this configuration, not cobbled together at some later date.

Was it (and possibly others like Dmitry/Valjhuns) made by a sword supplier trying to capitalise on the 'Historismus' movement by producing a 'blending' of the modern and archaic in a still usable weapon?
Well clearly it IS a blending of styles and clearly it IS a usable weapon, so that would fit.
Clearly the makers were not attempting a historical copy, or flashy reproduction.
But regardless, was it made simply for 'show'?
Possibly, but why not make it more 'flashy' or historically accurate?
Why bother making it so 'usable'?
Was it made for a fraternal organisation or other archaic group as Jim suggests?
Seems like a good bet!
Was it a private commission for purpose unknown?
Possibly.

[fernando]

Hi Gene

... Heavy military blade ...
I would adventure that the term 'heavy' for this type of 'epée officier' blade is a bit generous :o
Not denying that these blades, although made in a period where their purpose wasn't any longer for combat, are rather strong and balanced ... as if they were made still for the real job.

[Atlantia]

Hi Gene


I would adventure that the term 'heavy' for this type of 'epée officier' blade is a bit generous :o
Not denying that these blades, although made in a period where their purpose wasn't any longer for combat, are rather strong and balanced ... as if they were made still for the real job.

Hi Nando,

Heavy in this rapier-esq guise ;)

[Atlantia]

Gene! Sensational riposte!!!!! La!!!!! :)

All the best,
Jim

LOL, Thank you kindy Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Great discussion guys! and Dmitry thank you for the additional notes on the Hollywood outfit. Actually I think the instance I had heard of was one of the major studios, and one guy I knew had acquired a sabre from 'Bombay Cavalry' or one of the native units from the Raj. I was desperately collecting those type weapons and he used it for pure torture :) It was an absolutely authentic sabre with 'gothic style' hilt somewhat similar to Wilkinsons and Moles (Mole contracted for Wilkinson) types.
I know Bannerman from his castle in the Hudson actually fabricated many cast brass swords like briquets etc. I had not heard of these being used as props but more for collectors who were intrigued by the weapons display novelty becoming popular. It seems 'Bannerman' items, much like Schmitt replicas and theatrical/fraternal items have become unique collectibles in thier own right....another nostalgic phenomenon.

This 'phenomenon' is hardly peculiar to our own times, but was well known in earlier times as often self styled and loosely appointed figures in developing settlements sought to establish hereditary and traditional presence. For example, this was most apparant in the colonial frontier regions of New Spain, as I had mentioned earlier. I have seen many examples of rather flamboyant styled weapons which reflect the rapiers and swords of earlier times, often even coupled entirely incongruently, such as shallow dish guards with crossguard beneath, and other features and elements of mixed origin. These seem to have been fashioned for wear in ceremonial and social type events as dress weapons, and have a curious flair as unusual hybridizations which still had capacity to serve as weapons as required.

Regarding the 'heavier' blades, this was profoundly the case with the colonial cuphilt swords of New Spain, which had the revered hilts of the Spaniards using 'arming' dragoon type blades rather than the thin blades of the famed rapiers of generations before. As rapiers left civilian status thier style was still much favored but bolstered as well as being mounted with these arming sword blades with fashionable officers.

The use of such weapons is well known of course within established fraternal and militia type organizations which often had call for refurbished or newly fashioned hilt work and using old, perhaps even heirloom blades. I have known of such instances of various swords in this type or category used in the most honorary status of the Tylers sword in Masonic lodges, which demanded often a weapon with profound character as befitting its station.
While obviously outfitters provided ample supply of special designs and forms for officers and members of these organizations, the Tylers sword seems to have been preferred to have its own character, and to have varied widely in different lodges. In many cases, the blades at least in these swords, had indeed seen combat, or been intended for it.

[katana]

Hi Gene :) ,
have you considered whether this is a 19th C dueling sword ;) .....sword schools (teaching traditional fencing ie rapier) and secretive (illegal) duelling were still popular early 19th -mid 19thC , in France but,especially in Germany ....

All the best mate
David

[Atlantia]

Great discussion guys! and Dmitry thank you for the additional notes on the Hollywood outfit. Actually I think the instance I had heard of was one of the major studios, and one guy I knew had acquired a sabre from 'Bombay Cavalry' or one of the native units from the Raj. I was desperately collecting those type weapons and he used it for pure torture :) It was an absolutely authentic sabre with 'gothic style' hilt somewhat similar to Wilkinsons and Moles (Mole contracted for Wilkinson) types.
I know Bannerman from his castle in the Hudson actually fabricated many cast brass swords like briquets etc. I had not heard of these being used as props but more for collectors who were intrigued by the weapons display novelty becoming popular. It seems 'Bannerman' items, much like Schmitt replicas and theatrical/fraternal items have become unique collectibles in thier own right....another nostalgic phenomenon.

This 'phenomenon' is hardly peculiar to our own times, but was well known in earlier times as often self styled and loosely appointed figures in developing settlements sought to establish hereditary and traditional presence. For example, this was most apparant in the colonial frontier regions of New Spain, as I had mentioned earlier. I have seen many examples of rather flamboyant styled weapons which reflect the rapiers and swords of earlier times, often even coupled entirely incongruently, such as shallow dish guards with crossguard beneath, and other features and elements of mixed origin. These seem to have been fashioned for wear in ceremonial and social type events as dress weapons, and have a curious flair as unusual hybridizations which still had capacity to serve as weapons as required.

Regarding the 'heavier' blades, this was profoundly the case with the colonial cuphilt swords of New Spain, which had the revered hilts of the Spaniards using 'arming' dragoon type blades rather than the thin blades of the famed rapiers of generations before. As rapiers left civilian status thier style was still much favored but bolstered as well as being mounted with these arming sword blades with fashionable officers.

The use of such weapons is well known of course within established fraternal and militia type organizations which often had call for refurbished or newly fashioned hilt work and using old, perhaps even heirloom blades. I have known of such instances of various swords in this type or category used in the most honorary status of the Tylers sword in Masonic lodges, which demanded often a weapon with profound character as befitting its station.
While obviously outfitters provided ample supply of special designs and forms for officers and members of these organizations, the Tylers sword seems to have been preferred to have its own character, and to have varied widely in different lodges. In many cases, the blades at least in these swords, had indeed seen combat, or been intended for it.


Hi Jim,

The quest continues. Still no definative answers but I live in hope!
I've had the chance to show it to a couple of friends (collectors) with positive reviews but still no exact provenance.

I'm sure an answer will eventually turn up..... I just hope it's in my lifetime ;)

Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

Hi Gene :) ,
have you considered whether this is a 19th C dueling sword ;) .....sword schools (teaching traditional fencing ie rapier) and secretive (illegal) duelling were still popular early 19th -mid 19thC , in France but,especially in Germany ....

All the best mate
David

Hi David,

Thanks for coming into this mate.
I haven't considered that possibility. Excellent, thank you.

Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

The Spanish Bilbo thread has thrown up an interesting development for this thread as well.
Valjhuns Klingenthal 'rapier' shows striking similarities in hilt style (One less quillion I know) to a sword pictured in Nandos last post:

[broadaxe]

Similar, but 19th century work. Dueling rapier is a possibility, but as I've researched that topic several years ago and met with one of the world's leading authorities (Maitre Jaque Castanet), dueling rapiers of the period usually had triangular stiff blade, the direct father of the olympic epee, with various hilts - mostly cup hilt.