Wrong allocation ?

[Martin Lubojacky]

On November 6, 2011, Meisner-Neumann auction took place in Prague. There were also a few eastern weapons (not 100 % my field), and I am not definitely sure, if they attributed correct countries"
- Small knife in silver sheath with double hook for small animals and tinderbox was described as from Mongolia (I thought it should be Tibet).
- Small dagger with ray skin was attributed to Chad (ray skin in Chad).
- Also I have newer seen Keris with such small wiwes - described as from Borneo (is it real piece or souvenier ?).

Thanks for standpoints, regards,
Martin

[Jim McDougall]

Definitely need Lews's input here!
Rayskin in Chad ?????

[Iain]

There is a species of freshwater ray in the Benue river... Style of the knife is close enough to fit this area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_stingray

I'm having trouble finding if any freshwater rays exist in Lake Chad. But there are certainly rivers with them around in the right area for this knife.

[Stan S.]

Decorations on the first item and the shape of the knife definetely point at Tibet

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much Iain, had no idea these were in these regions. Naturally with rayskin I think of oriental weapon grips and in some cases those on Eastern European sabres' grips. Of course they were used on British officers grips, but do we know of any other Saharan weapons with this material?
I think of crocodile first or the monitor, but havent seen rayskin.

All best,
Jim

[Iain]

Hi Jim,

I don't blame you for thinking of eastern swords.

I can't recall a Sahel weapon I've seen before with rayskin. However from the wikipedia article it appears the Niger stingray is fished heavily and eaten. So I imagine an ample supply of skin was/is available.

The two types of stingray found in fresh water in Africa are both in Western Africa, nothing in Lake Chad.

Unfortunately besides the wikipedia articles I could turn up almost nothing on Google and absolutely nothing weapon related.

An anomaly perhaps, but the resource to get the ray skin certainly seems to be in place. Interestingly the Wikipedia article notes that the Hausa know it as the 'water scorpion'. I wonder if any tribes in the area associated animistic or totemic values to the ray?

[Indianajones]

Nice Keris there! Good for cutting crunchy bread and stick it into some cheesefondue! :D
Am not a keris-collector but would like to own that one; curious what others' opinions are . . .!

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jim,

I don't blame you for thinking of eastern swords.

I can't recall a Sahel weapon I've seen before with rayskin. However from the wikipedia article it appears the Niger stingray is fished heavily and eaten. So I imagine an ample supply of skin was/is available.

The two types of stingray found in fresh water in Africa are both in Western Africa, nothing in Lake Chad.

Unfortunately besides the wikipedia articles I could turn up almost nothing on Google and absolutely nothing weapon related.

An anomaly perhaps, but the resource to get the ray skin certainly seems to be in place. Interestingly the Wikipedia article notes that the Hausa know it as the 'water scorpion'. I wonder if any tribes in the area associated animistic or totemic values to the ray?


Great stuff Iain! Now theres a question for us . Knowing the totemism characteristically applied toward various creatures symbolically, could these be somehow represented ?
We do know the catfish occurs in stylized symbolism in Sudanese and I think Egyptian areas.
That central dagger seems West African, yes? I suppose Chad could be possible as eastern reach.

[Martin Lubojacky]

As far as middle knife/dagger is concerned:
Acc to "African Arms and Armour" by Christopher Spring, ray skin was used as material for scabbards of Asante (Ghana) important sword Afena - so material known at least in the part of the wider region. But does the shape of the knife correspond with the types used in Chad ? I think it is very difficult to allocate this small dagger to some tribe (?)
Regards,
Martin

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Martin !!! Thank you for finding that reference. You're right, it will be hard to place distinct attribution, but most likely collective regional scope where the type most prevalent.

[Iain]

This basic style of dagger is found in a lot of tribes. I think it would be somewhat impossible to pin it down exactly.

Great to hear of another rayskin reference in West Africa! I for one, am learning a lot today, never even thought about the material in connection with Africa. :)

[Sajen]

Nice Keris there! Good for cutting crunchy bread and stick it into some cheesefondue! :D
Am not a keris-collector but would like to own that one; curious what others' opinions are . . .!

This is the best you can do with this keris! :D :D It is a recent creation of a panjang keris from Sumatra. :rolleyes:

Regards,

Detlef

[Gavin Nugent]

With the Ray skin reference I recalled this thread from the archive in my mind.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10634&highlight=Dahomey

I have not had time to read it but is might offer a little more :shrug:

[asomotif]

recent creation of a panjang keris from Sumatra. :rolleyes:

Regards,

Detlef

There is an epray seller on Borneo selling similar 'keris'.
Maybe that is the provenance, explaining the Borneo desription.

Ugly items, weird that someone puts time an effort in creating it :shrug:

Best regards,Willem

[Martin Lubojacky]

Thanks for pieces of interesting information to all.
Regards,
Martin

[dennee]

First one is definitely Tibet. Looks like a woman's belt, probably from the northeast. In addition to the utility knife and the mechag (pouch holding flint and tinder and with a steel striker plate) it has a milk pail hook. The (likely imitation) coral and other decoration is solidly Tibetan. The curved knife sheath and its metal work are also characteristic.

[Rod Charters]

Just to add that in Khartoum it is common to find ray tails used for making whips. The ones I've seen are all new and I have always assumed these come from the red sea.

Rod

[Sajen]

There is an epray seller on Borneo selling similar 'keris'.
Maybe that is the provenance, explaining the Borneo desription.
Best regards,Willem

Hi Willem,

funny, this coming to my mind as well.:D

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

Martin, i might suggest that in the future you divide a group like this up and post them in their respective forums. You would get far more responses about the keris in the keris forum. But i do agree with what has already been said about it.

[Martin Lubojacky]

Hi David,
next time I will do as you said. Thanks for confirmation re keris
Regards
Martin

[DaveS]

Yes, the kris is a recent creation, but i doubt if any of the top custom
damascus knifmakers in the U.S could even come close to duplicating it.
They simply don't have the experience working with the style of these
Indonesian type blades. They will also be the first to admit that fact..Dave

[A.alnakkas]

Abit off-topic; but is the keris like the yemeni Jambiya? a dress item as far as I know so there will be new ones. But from what I see, those new ones look awesome! How bad it is to buy a new one?

[Battara]

Well in a sense yes - the keris is like the jambiya in that it is part of ceremonial dress and new ones are being made as we speak - the craft is alive and well.

[Rick]

Abit off-topic; but is the keris like the yemeni Jambiya? a dress item as far as I know so there will be new ones. But from what I see, those new ones look awesome! How bad it is to buy a new one?

For the first part:
Yes, like a Jambiya and possibly a bit more .

For the second part:
Not bad at all !
Best to be educated first . ;)

[Sajen]

For the first part:
Yes, like a Jambiya and possibly a bit more .

For the second part:
Not bad at all !
Best to be educated first . ;)

WOW, what a beautiful keris in all parts! :eek: :)

Regards,

Detlef

[Rick]

WOW, what a beautiful keris in all parts! :eek: :)

Regards,

Detlef

Thanks Detlef . :)

One of the many wonders to be found in the Warung, no ? ;) :D