Another Moro sword for ID

[ariel]

This does not look like a classic Barong to me.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6573293146&rd=1&rd=1
What is it?

[Battara]

I'd say a local thing made for sale in the market.

[kai]

IMVHO it looks like a recent Maranao creation partly inspired by a Barong (aimed at a market frequented by travellers rather than Tausug folks ;) ). The handguard and the inlaid dots seem to be common give-aways.

[Ian]

I agree with kai. Probably recent Maranao work. There may also be some Visayan influence reflected in the guard and suspension system for the scabbard.

Ian.

[Freddy]

I know far too little to make any comment on this piece, but what about this one : http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7360201643&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

It's Moro and apparently a keris blade.

Freddy

[Rick]

I know far too little to make any comment on this piece, but what about this one : http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7360201643&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

It's Moro and apparently a keris blade.

Freddy

I'm doubting this is a Moro kris blade .

[Tim Simmons]

I now little of these things, so I need things explained. From what I can see Freddy has acquired an old blade and the handle appears contemporary to the blade, at a very good price I might add. To my limited knowledge it does not look like a tourist item, yet to my untrained eye the blade does look a little unusual especially around the hilt. This weapon looks a lot older and indeed used rather than the one that started the thread. I am waiting to be enlightened. Tim

[Rick]

I doubt the blade is that old ; post 30's or much later .
The details at the base of the blade are kris-like but basically look like hacksaw cuts .
I've never seen a Moro blade that has detailing like this .
Possibly this blade is made after the Moro style .

Now a Moro tourist blade has some slight resemblance .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/joeconrad/20cdetail.jpg
Still it looks like a Moro blade .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/joeconrad/20cfull.jpg

[Battara]

AS we have mentioned before on this forum, it is a Lumad mix. The hilt is T'boli and the kris blade is probably also made by them copied to some degree from the Moro.

[zamboanga]

I doubt the blade is that old ; post 30's or much later .
The details at the base of the blade are kris-like but basically look like hacksaw cuts .
I've never seen a Moro blade that has detailing like this .
Possibly this blade is made after the Moro style .

Now a Moro tourist blade has some slight resemblance .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/joeconrad/20cdetail.jpg
Still it looks like a Moro blade .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/joeconrad/20cfull.jpg


The first picture is a classic tourist item. Made out of galvanized iron (G.I.) pipe split open using acetylene torch. Why G.I. pipe? it's cheap and easier to etch those lines on. A finished piece like this is sold at the local (Zamboanga) market for about $20-40.

[kai]

From my POV Freddy got a nice blade, especially considering the price. As already explained it's not Moro though and I'd also won't call this a kris (nor keris). It's certainly inspired by the Moro kris (remember these peoples are neighbors) but those details on the gangya area would IMVHO never be done by a traditional Moro panday (nor within any other keris culture - wether Hindu or Muslim). There have been quite a few of these non-Moro blades lately and while the details vary quite a bit they always look wrong/weird if compared with legitimate Moro pieces. Some even have a notch copying the elefant trunk but may omit the lower lip or are otherwise quite obviously non-Moro. Of course, this isn't a "bad thing" (tm) and these blades deserve to be collected in their own right - especially if they appear to be original, complete pieces. There was a fairly recent thread here and I'll try to post pics of some more examples in there tomorrow.

There also have been a lot of Moro-made kris blades with non-Moro hilts for sale. While some of these are certainly genuine pieces (trade blades or captured and subsequently refitted), most appear to be recent, "forced" marriages. I can't help to think of these as intended to peak collector's curiosity and to sell off blades of lower quality with a more gaudy hilt. Excessive pitch or even glue seems to be a dead give-away for contemporary manipulation/refitting (traditional artisans were apparently more careful a century ago). However, this clue is often visible with other hilts rather than with T'boli or Bagobo brass hilts (due to their construction).

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

So Tim , are you now enlightened ? :D

[Tim Simmons]

Yes a little more in the know but a few more pictures to help illustrate the differences would have been helpfull. Thanks Tim

[zelbone]

....just call it a sundang to be safe :D

[kai]

a few more pictures to help illustrate the differences would have been helpfull
I'm working on it, Tim! :rolleyes:

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

I'll bet a site search for 'moro kris' would probably produce mucho images too Tim . :)

[Tim Simmons]

Hello Rick, the search was disappointing, information largely from people that want to sell you something. There is nothing like being shown as in a lesson :cool: . Tim

[Rick]

Hello Rick, the search was disappointing, information largely from people that want to sell you something. There is nothing like being shown as in a lesson :cool: . Tim

Really ?
In the Forum archives ?

[Tim Simmons]

How dumb of me, it is late in the evening hear and wine has a tendency to fuddle the mind. The archive is very informative on this subject. Thanks Tim.

[Rick]

Cocktail Hour is rapidly approaching here on the East Coast ; I look forward to joining you soon in a little fuddlement . ;) :D

[slovak]

Dear all,

In my opinion that is surely a Moro Kris. Made in abundance since early 1900's up to today. Moro kris usually has a low quality metal and the blade simply by hammering any steel into a blade. Perhaps their pande lacks the skill to make a real keris. Some however have fancy dresses to make it look valuable. To me, a real keris must incorporate real skill to make it valuable not just from a piece of hammered scrap metal. Unfortunately western collectors had some obsession on this type of kris made popular among themselves to help the poor pandes of the Philiphines. Perhaps it’s their desperation for a living drives them to do such things.

....just call it a sundang to be safe :D

Zelbone,

Some people call this type of keris a Sundang. It is the same thing, just a difference in terms of language. You can study other languages in the keris nations to have a better understanding. Sometimes having too little knowledge and so much to talk about can be a dangerous thing. ;)

[Spunjer]

Dear all,

In my opinion that is surely a Moro Kris. Made in abundance since early 1900's up to today. Moro kris usually has a low quality metal and the blade simply by hammering any steel into a blade. Perhaps their pande lacks the skill to make a real keris. Some however have fancy dresses to make it look valuable. To me, a real keris must incorporate real skill to make it valuable not just from a piece of hammered scrap metal. Unfortunately western collectors had some obsession on this type of kris made popular among themselves to help the poor pandes of the Philiphines. Perhaps it’s their desperation for a living drives them to do such things.

would love to know your source on this...

Zelbone,

Some people call this type of keris a Sundang. It is the same thing, just a difference in terms of language. You can study other languages in the keris nations to have a better understanding. Sometimes having too little knowledge and so much to talk about can be a dangerous thing.

ouch! easy there, big boy, lol. me think you should get to know the person first before making statements like that...

[LabanTayo]

Zelbone,

Some people call this type of keris a Sundang. It is the same thing, just a difference in terms of language. You can study other languages in the keris nations to have a better understanding. Sometimes having too little knowledge and so much to talk about can be a dangerous thing. ;)

Slovak,
If that is your educated opinion, then why are you spelling it "keris" ?????
We are talking about a Filipino sword, not a Malay/Indo keris. Considering the language they use in the Moroland, shouldn't it be "kris, kalis or sundang"?

Or should we just call it "bolo or talibong"?? :D

[slovak]

Hi Laban Tayo,

Yes, it is the same keris, kris, kalis and sundang. Then why does Mr. Zelbone suggested that it should be called a Sundang? Is it because of its inferior quality? Does the so called "Moro Kris" term is for the 'better' (if any) ones? Perhaps our honourable Mr. Zelbone has the answer. :D

[Spunjer]

lol, let the trolling begin...

Some philiphines migrated to other countries to be karaoke singer just to make a living. Perhaps one of them can make the glorious "moro kris". Its not hard, u have to have a furnance, some left over steel, hammer, chicel and grinder to make the luks. U can examine the kerisses on your cupboard and see.

*walks to the cupboard and inspect my 'kerisses'...*

yup, you're right; i do see the 'chicel' marks on it. now where did i place my karaoke mic?

[Rick]

lol, let the trolling begin...



*walks to the cupboard and inspect my 'kerisses'...*

yup, you're right; i do see the 'chicel' marks on it. now where did i place my karaoke mic?

Spunjer , they're having auditions Fri. nite at the Chillicothe Holiday Inn . :D

It's obvious that English is not Mr. 'Slovak's' first language so let's cut him some slack on that ; and ask him to provide references to back up his statements .

[Spunjer]

rick, im so there... :cool:

[nechesh]

Well, maybe Mr. Slovak has had a deprived edged weapons childhood. ;) Perhaps some of our members who own some of the more exquisite examples of Moro kris might be willing to post them here for Mr. Slovaks edification.
Your other remarks, Mr. Slovak, which seem to me to border on racism speak to a deprivation in education that i am unwilling to address here. I am happy to see that so far our members of Filippino origin have taken this as a laughing matter, but it doesn't amuse me one bit. I trust you will think before you type and tone it down a bit in the future. :(

[slovak]

:) It is good to see u can take this lightly. Yes, english is not my mother tounge, but at least i understand it unlike u to my language friends. ;) Perhaps thats why your remarks are very cocky. U should perhaps rethink it rather than asking other people to follow your way. People can "fallow" your ways, but there must be some tolerence. Get it? :D :D Reference? who need references here? Help friends!!! I got trashed and need some backing up. :) Oh.... happy karaoke'ing'. :)

p/s: opps.. spelling mistake. The word "fallow" should be replaced with follow.

[nechesh]

Though i am not quite sure just what your language is, my friend, i am willing to bet that there is more than one forum member who speaks it fluently. I think you under estimate us greatly, but that is your problem really.
Perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to the reasons for you obvious anger and arrogance since you seem so unwilling to back up any of your "knowledge" about keris or Moro kris.

[MABAGANI]

scottie rip, ask sulu bout "cocky"...czechov beam me up?

[nechesh]

scottie rip, ask sulu bout "cocky"...czechov beam me up?

LOL! :D :rolleyes:

[Ian]

Guys:

Let's cut slovak some slack here. English is not his first language, and he may not know some of you have been contributing to this forum for several years and have a deep knowledge of the Moro kris.

Welcome to the Forum, slovak. There is actually a considerable amount of information and pictures of Moro kris to be found on these pages, which can be accessed through the search engine, including information about the straight-bladed version of the Moro kris which is sometimes called a sundang in the local culture (reference to this term can be found in Robert Cato's book, Moro Swords).

We have quite a passionate group of Philippine weapons enthusiasts on this forum, and I hope you will be able to share your experience and knowledge with us.

Ian.

[MABAGANI]

I didn't read any apologies for the racial stereotype or moderators removing the statement, that was in plain english. btw my apologies for the "cocky" jk and no disrespect to czechs and scots, just an old treky fan and wanted an alien retreat from us lowly humans

[slovak]

Thank you very much Ian. I appreciate your kind words. At last, one honourable individual. :)

I'm not backing up my reasons because i dont see that i need to. Think why. It is soooo.. this forum. Just look at this thread, my way and your way is the wrong way. (yeah.. u will said yours is the right one). Im using arrogance against itself and as usual, it will cause problems. So many problems can be avoided with a little understanding an patience. (Now u can sing the song - We are the world) :D

[Ian]

Guys:

I'm locking this thread pending review of some of the comments by the Moderators.

Ian.

[Ian]

Several comments have been removed from earlier posts because they have been deemed offensive by the staff.

Ian.

[zelbone]

Wow!

I didn't realize my statement of calling these swords a sundang would bring a maelstorm of feedback...

It looks like we have a new "expert" on this forum...

It's obvious Mr. Slovak is unfamiliar with Philippine weaponry of Christian, Muslim, and anismist origin. And even more obvious, unfamiliarity with the various dialects of Philippine languages as well as the history and culture of the Philippines. The term "sundang" is used in almost every dialect across the Philippine archipelego to refer to a long bladed weapon used as either a weapon or tool. This refers to the bolos in the north to the krises of the south. As I said, calling these weapons (including the odd barong-like sword that started this thread and the T'boli hilt kris mentioned later) a "sundang" would be a safe and appropriate term that wouldn't offend any Filipino....Ilocano, Tagalog, Visayan, T'boli, Maranao, Bagobo, etc....

However, I find it amusingly funny that the term "sundang" which is universal in the Philippines to be offensive to Mr. Slovak....who obviously isn't Pinoy...di ba?

It's obvious our new expert in sandata knows more than the rest us; having to use racial comments and appear arrogant...or what the Filipinos would call "mayabang." But I'm not here to debate our new expert...there's no point. I made my statement before to call these swords a sundang to be "safe" since it's a general term used for any long bladed weapon or tool in the Philippines that wouldn't offend any Filipino. But it seems the non-Filipinos are the ones offended. I rarely post here anymore to avoid these debates and confrontations. I haven't even shared the new knowledge I learned in the month I spent across the Philippines recently. That would open up a new can a worms and maybe cause further discord. It's best to keep that knowledge to myself....to avoid conflict with so called "experts."

...experts like Mr. Slovak

Besides, debating over swords and sword terms is fruitless...especially sitting in the comforts of your home. Go to where they are still made and used...and truly learn.

Mr. Slovak debating you would be pointless. Your narrow viewpoint and arrogance would be a hinderance to you. It would be like you coming to a fight with a fork....and me armed with a sundang....tagain kita!

[Rick]

Hi Zel , Mr. 'slovak' has been dismissed .
I sincerely hope you will continue to post .

We do our best to keep the place swept . :o

[LabanTayo]

Dang, I leave home for a few hours and the house gets cleaned!!!!! :D
Thanks Rick and Ian. :):)
But who's going to clean the windows??
Thanks to Nechesh and others for defending the cause.

Now, my opinion of the swords that started this throwdown.
1. Its a newer made sword to resemble a Barong with the locals twist of style added to it. I think Palawan because of the curvy lines or Basilan because of the belt notch carved into the scabbard, just like Pira scabbards, but I'm sure Zamboanga can have a better opinion, considering his location.

2. Definetely a T'boli interpretation of a Moro Kalis Tulid, with not much attention to detail in the gangya and 'gandik' area.

Just my uneducated opinion that could be way of base. :D

[zamboanga]

Hi Zel , Mr. 'slovak' has been dismissed .
I sincerely hope you will continue to post .

We do our best to keep the place swept . :o


Mabuhay ka! and the rest of the mods :)

[Ian]

Walang anuman

Ian.

[zamboanga]

Now, my opinion of the swords that started this throwdown.
1. Its a newer made sword to resemble a Barong with the locals twist of style added to it. I think Palawan because of the curvy lines or Basilan because of the belt notch carved into the scabbard, just like Pira scabbards, but I'm sure Zamboanga can have a better opinion, considering his location.


Hi LabanTayo,

I agree with you that it is a newly made sword. I'm sure it's maranao-made and I agree with Battara's earlier comment that it is made for the market.

My tausug and yakan friends are thrown in a frenzy whenever they see these on the market. They don't know whether to laugh or cry. :D :D :D

[Battara]

First to the moderators - salamat po! :D

Secondly, Zelbone, I do wish you would post more. I and others with whom I speak learn much from you and others like yourself on this forum. :o :D

Third, Zamboanga, I'm curious what the Yakan and Tausugs do say about these that come on the market. :confused:

[zamboanga]

First to the moderators - salamat po! :D

Secondly, Zelbone, I do wish you would post more. I and others with whom I speak learn much from you and others like yourself on this forum. :o :D

Third, Zamboanga, I'm curious what the Yakan and Tausugs do say about these that come on the market. :confused:

Maybe I can sum up their thoughts as follows:

To them these are simply barong wannabees. The blade profile is wrong; the puhan profile is wrong; no ukkil on the puhan; the blade is usually thin and not laminated, etc. And mostly of all, these are not made or produced by people who are historically associated with the barong.

In essence: paraded as barongs, now that makes them laugh. To attract such a high price because of this pretension, that makes them cry.

[Battara]

Thank you, Zamboanga. This is helpful. I have noticed that same thing in this description, and wonder about the types I have seen that are so narrow (and thin) that I question that they are truly barongs. Some call these sipput, though I cannot say that I have examined all of this type. Certainly those similar to what we are discussing are not what I have called "legitimate" but in respect to those who have objected, I don't use the term "tourist" in public.

[MABAGANI]

Zel, holding back? any new info on the demonhead "sundang"...lol

[LabanTayo]

Mabagani,
The news is that they're calling it sundang in the south, north and middle, and sometimes in hong kong, they call it siao pao.
They used to be called talibong in the mid 40's and bolo in the 70's.
Before 1898, they were called espada.
I hope that clarifies everything for ya. :)

btw, that was total sarcasm......

[themorningstar]

"Do not try and say its a sundang. That's impossible. Instead ... only try to realize the truth."
"What truth?"
"There is no sundang."

-sorry... i couldn't resist.... plus zel took my line....

but honestly.... it really would just be accepted as a sundang...

p.s. apologies for the matrix-like comment