Two small Coteng - keris selit or are they older?

[VVV]

In this thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13963) DA Henkel wrote about another small keris:

"Kelantan or Terengganu dating to around 1920 - 1940... In these days smallish keris for "formal" attire were popular and even today in Kota Bahru they call them keris selit because the fit just nicely into the waist of your sarong."

Here is first a small silver coteng I found that is so much smaller than my two earlier coteng and the two coteng I have seen at the late Karsten Sejr Jensen's house. It's about 2/3 in size (30 cm/11 3/4") compared to my other silver coteng (42 cm/16 5/8").

And then a few weeks later I bought this small wooden coteng from Artzi that is just as small (29 cm/11 1/2").

What do you think, are they older versions or are they keris selit according to the quote above?

Michael

[BluErf]

I've seen small coteng kerises around, but I'm not so sure they can be classified as 'older' because of size. "Keris selit" as a term may not be applicable North of Kelantan/Terengganu, as it seems to have a Kelantanese/Terengganu origin.

Cotengs are inherently quite slim and petite, even in their full sizes, compared to the larger kerises that can be found down South. There may not be a very strong reason to downsize them further for a 'keris selit' effect.

[VVV]

Thanks Kai Wee!

I didn't know how local the keris selit-phenomena was as it was new to me before DA Henkel wrote about it.
Where there any other kind of blades than the flamboyant Parang Patani that were common to carry among Malays in South Thailand 100+ years ago?
Any longer straight swords?
I have a problem to understand the reasons for carrying so small kerises other than as a traditional part of your dress or for a metaphysical reason.

Michael

[David]

I have a problem to understand the reasons for carrying so small kerises other than as a traditional part of your dress or for a metaphysical reason.
Would these reasons not be sufficient? :shrug:

[VVV]

Would these reasons not be sufficient? :shrug:

Yes, you (we :p) are of course correct in that.
But sometimes people want a back up weapon, not to "disturb" the invisible forces unnecessarily.
Maybe I am to much self-defense/weapon oriented about this?

Michael

[BluErf]

I think in the later part of the keris evolution, it is not so much a weapon as a part of the dress code. :) I don't recall seeing many long swords in Kelantan, but that does not mean there isn't any. Maybe I'm just not meeting the people who collects them, but the most common bladed types I've see are keris, badik, golok, kapak (axe), parang and klewang (both curved types). Don't recall many long swords.

[VVV]

Thanks for your feedback.
It's strange that they didn't carry any longer weapons than the parang or curved klewang.
I wonder how they fought against the Thai with only short- and mid-range blades?

Michael

[Sajen]

I just bought this small coteng sheath (I think it is one?). It is only 27 cm long but the tip of the batang is broken and covered with a silver (?) cover. I have several questions about this sheath. Since the "window" in the batang seems old and patinated: is there a special purpose for such a window? Are the hilts smaller than a "normal" coteng hilt? (Here is special Michael asked) Do someone know from which wood this sheath is carved? And which sort of blade would be adequate?

Thank you in advance,

Detlef

[BluErf]

Nice old coteng sheath. The 'window' in the batang is probably old damage.

The part of the batang that has been lost could easily have been 5cm or longer, to make the proportions correct.

[Sajen]

Thank you Kai Wee for your informed help! :)
I have get with the sheath a second one from the same wood (I think) but with a old repair but the batang is still ok. I am unsure if I shall cut the broken one and should replace it with the good one, the cut don't will be visible by the silver sleeve. What do you think?

Regards,

Detlef

[PenangsangII]

the term ''keris selit'' is relatively new as traditionally, the smaller keris tucked in the waist band is called ''keris pandak'' in reference to short keris. Keris pandak normally holds a higher status as most probably its the type of pusaka / heirloom, whilst the longer keris could be the fighting /battle keris, which normally hand held.

WRT question on how these ppl battled out the Siamese, normally the Pattani fighters those days were also armed with klewang or parang. Though they are shorter, i did not doubt they can stand against the longer dha or a katana for that matter. These ppl have developed fighting style to suit their need, and the weapon culture was also developed for the continuous warfare with the Siamese.

[BluErf]

Hi Detlef,

The other sheath has a broken daunan, but the batang is one piece with the cross-piece. It is quite a waste to cut the batang to fit the first sheath.

If you don't have a keris blade and coteng hilt to fit the first sheath, why not just leave them be for the time being. If you do get a keris blade and coteng hilt in the future, you could send it to Malaysia to be fitted, and at the same time, get a batang and metal works done.

[VVV]

Thanks PenangsangII for the explanations.
I hope to visit this area one day to find out more about this.

Michael

[Sajen]

Hi Detlef,

The other sheath has a broken daunan, but the batang is one piece with the cross-piece. It is quite a waste to cut the batang to fit the first sheath.

If you don't have a keris blade and coteng hilt to fit the first sheath, why not just leave them be for the time being. If you do get a keris blade and coteng hilt in the future, you could send it to Malaysia to be fitted, and at the same time, get a batang and metal works done.

Hi Kai Wee,

yes, I think you are right, it will be the best to do nothing until I have a blade and hilt! :)

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

the term ''keris selit'' is relatively new as traditionally, the smaller keris tucked in the waist band is called ''keris pandak'' in reference to short keris. Keris pandak normally holds a higher status as most probably its the type of pusaka / heirloom, whilst the longer keris could be the fighting /battle keris, which normally hand held.

WRT question on how these ppl battled out the Siamese, normally the Pattani fighters those days were also armed with klewang or parang. Though they are shorter, i did not doubt they can stand against the longer dha or a katana for that matter. These ppl have developed fighting style to suit their need, and the weapon culture was also developed for the continuous warfare with the Siamese.

Thank you for this informations! :)

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Thanks PenangsangII for the explanations.
I hope to visit this area one day to find out more about this.

Michael


Hello Michael,

can you tell me if the hilts of your examples are smaller as normal.

Thank you,

Detlef

[VVV]

Detlef,

Yes the hilts are also proportionally smaller than regular sized coteng.

Michael

[Sajen]

Detlef,

Yes the hilts are also proportionally smaller than regular sized coteng.

Michael


Thank you Michael! :)