Sea cow used for Iban hilts

[VVV]

I just had three Swedish and German blade smiths visiting me to study some of my Indonesian and Filipino blades. We had a great time and I also learned a lot on how some of my blades were made, why it has this or that shape and how some of the twist core and laminations are done etc.
One eye opener for me was that two of my Iban hilts are made of sea cow bone, not antler as I always considered all Dayak hilts to be made from without even reflecting about it. Actually when it was brought up it was easy to spot the other hilt as the colour is totally different than from the whiter antler hilts.
By coincidence (or maybe not?) both of them are Iban/Sea Dayak and both of them are on Langgai Tinggangs.
Maybe someone else will discover this material on their hilts too?

Michael

[Royston]

Michael

Very nice hilt. What tells you it is sea cow and not antler apart from the colour which could just be a factor of age and use ? or is this another definite / maybe scenario ?

I have something which looks similar, I always thought it was antler, but now you have me doubting :confused:

Regards
Roy

[Maurice]

Interesting Michael!

I noticed the different in colours of "antler" handles before, but I always thought it might be that the antler had different colours by itself?
I've seen them by very "teeth"white to very darkbrown. A friendcollector told me once that the whiter pieces have seen a lot more sun as the pieces with darker handles which probably were more used in the forests as in open area where sunlight was shining.....(but I don't know if this is true and what his source was for this statement).

Let's suppose this would be sea cow, from which part could it be than?
Is there also seen a difference in material/structure, besides of the colour?

Maurice

[VVV]

According to the smith that used sea cow for his knife handles it's both the yellow surface layer as well as the spongy parts inside that characterize it as sea cow.
If I remember him correctly it was the top part of the back bone used for the first hilt (Maybe I need to recheck this with him or let him answer directly when he is back home again in Germany tomorrow night?).

Michael

[VANDOO]

VERY INTERESTING!! I HAVE ALWAYS ADDED THE FACTS ON THE SIZE OF SEA COW TEETH TO ELIMINATE THE POSSIBILITY OF THEIR BEING BIG ENOUGH TO MAKE IVORY KERIS HILTS OR MOST OTHER HILTS.
USING SEA COW BONE HAS NOT COME UP BEFORE BUT AS THE ANIMAL IS LARGE AND THE BONES LARGE ENOUGH AND DENSE ENOUGH FOR USE AS MANDAU HANDLES AND OTHER ITEMS AS WELL. THE SEA COW HAS BEEN HUNTED FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND IS STILL HUNTED IN MANY AREAS. TODAY IT IS HUNTED FOR FOOD IN MOST REGIONS WHERE IT OCCURS.
SO IT IS LIKELY THE BONE COULD BE USED AS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE AND PERHAPS EASIER TO OBTAIN THAN DEER ANTLER FOR VILLAGES NEAR THE SEA AND RIVERS.
A LOCAL WHO HAS WORKED WITH ANTLER AND SEA COW WOULD BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BUT I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO AS ALL I HAVE STUDIED HAS BEEN FOSSILIZED. THANKS FOR THIS INTERESTING POST IT IS NEW KNOWLEGE TO ME. :)

[Gavin Nugent]

Given the nature of practices of old and the easy availability of bone, could these hilts not be Human bone :shrug:

[asomotif]

it's both the yellow surface layer as well as the spongy parts inside that characterize it as sea cow.

Hello Michael,

Can this smith send examples of seacow bone for comparisson ?
To me almost all bones are spongy inside. and colour can be influenced by a lot of things.
It would be interesting to know if there is a very clear difference in structure.

Ps. if he uses seacow bone, is this new or old ? aren't seacows protected species ?

Best regards,
Willem

[David]

According to the smith that used sea cow for his knife handles it's both the yellow surface layer as well as the spongy parts inside that characterize it as sea cow.
If I remember him correctly it was the top part of the back bone used for the first hilt (Maybe I need to recheck this with him or let him answer directly when he is back home again in Germany tomorrow night?).

Michael
I am not denying the possibility of this, however i'm not sure that i am prepared to accept this without question based on the identification od a single smith who has used the material in his own blades. As has been mentioned, just about all bone and antler has a spongy appearance on the interior and color is very dependent upon environmental circumstance.
Now, if you can get a marine biologist to make the same ID.... :shrug: :)

[fearn]

It being summer, I'd suggest taking this piece to the nearest large natural history museum or major university with a large zoology department. In your country, that is (see last paragraph). What you want is someone with a dugong skeleton on hand, to compare the piece with.

The issue is that most of it is so sculpted that it will be difficult to tell if it is a dugong vertebra (top of the back) or not, without that same vertebra to compare it in three dimensions (which willl present an opportunity for some great photos, incidentally). Oddly enough, museums tend to have such skeletons around, or to know who does have them. In my experience, if they're not too busy, they also enjoy puzzles like determining the source of a bone.

I'm a little puzzled, because dugong ribs (not vertebrae) have a reputation for being unusually dense. So far as I know, they act to ballast the animals in the water. Unfortunately, it's been handled so much that non-destructive DNA sampling will simply pick up human DNA.

As for legal status, yes, dugongs are in Appendix 1 of CITES, which is the most restrictive one.

Best,

F

[napoleon]

thank you for sharing this,i will have to dig out my dyak swords and have a closer look,i never knew before reading this post that they used sea cow i also assumed it was stag they were made from . regards napoleon

[VANDOO]

IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD PEOPLE LIVE THE WAY THEY ALWAYS HAVE IF THEY CATCH A SEA TURTLE OR SEA COW THE FAMILY EATS WELL. BUT MOSTLY THEY LIVE ON MORE SIMPLE OR BLAND FARE. I HAVE SEEN BOTH SEA TURTLE AND DUGONG SKELETONS IN TRASH HEAPS IN SEVERAL PLACES SOME THINGS NEVER CHANGE.
I AM DEFINITELY FOR PROTECTING ENDANGERED SPECIES BUT I CAN'T BLAME A MAN LIVING IN A PRIMATIVE SOCIETY FOR TAKEING WHAT NATURE HAS BROUGHT HIM AND HIS ANCESTORS TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES. OFTEN THE LAW TAKES THIS INTO CONSIDERATION AND SOME TRIBES ARE ALLOWED TO HUNT AND TAKE A CERTIAN PROTECTED SPECIES IN REGULATED NUMBERS SO THE POPULATION IS NOT IMPACTED MUCH.
I DO HATE TO SEE SOMETHING USEFUL AND COOL THROWN INTO THE TRASH HEAP, OR LAYING BY THE ROADSIDE TO ROT AND WASTED BUT THATS THE LAW. :shrug:

[fearn]

Vandoo,

I don't blame anyone for making a hilt out of a bit of bone, either, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was made before dugongs were listed as endangered species (in 2000, AFAIK).

The issue here is that, depending on the customs agents of a particular country and the amount of documentation VVV has, if this langgai tinggang crosses a border, it might get confiscated. That's the reality of living in a world where many really cool species are endangered.

The reason I mention this is that I know people in England who would love this puzzle. I'd hate to tell VVV to take this blade to them, only to have it confiscated in transit. That benefits no one, not even the remaining live dugongs.

My 0.0002 cents,

F

[TimW]

Interesting info. I work a lot with natural materials (antler / bone). There are numerous difefrences among species. If you look at the range of antlers: they vary from very porous (european deer) to completely dense (elk / axis / reindeer / ...). Regarding the sea cow: I have a big chunk at home / will take some pictures. Stellar sea cow is allready extincted / lots of their bones are found in norhern regions and can be used without problem.

.

[VVV]

Obviously this thread caught some interest so I will contact him on Sunday and ask him to join this discussion so you get his arguments directly from him.

I don't know any marin biologist myself but if there is one on the list, or a member knows one good enough, maybe you can ask him for a comment too?

Unfortunately it isn't that easy to walk around with a large head hunter sword in central Stockholm and draw the blade among 100's of people inside the natural history museum during the tourist season without getting trouble with the police. :D

On the use of human bones I have never seen or heard about it being used for mandau hilts, unlike skulls placed under the main pillars of the long houses. Probably because of that it doesn't match the Dayak belief system.

On transit hassles fortunately there are no customs between EU-countries (Sweden - UK). Otherwise it might be a problem even if I have never experienced it myself as I only buy blades from before the ban.

Michael

[Gustav]

Regarding the use of human bone for a mandau handle:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2554&highlight=mandau

[VVV]

Yes, I remember that old thread and I have handled the mandau IRL.
But as far as I remember later on it was discovered that it wasn't human bone ...

Michael

[fearn]

I don't know any marin biologist myself but if there is one on the list, or a member knows one good enough, maybe you can ask him for a comment too?

Unfortunately it isn't that easy to walk around with a large head hunter sword in central Stockholm and draw the blade among 100's of people inside the natural history museum during the tourist season without getting trouble with the police. :D

Hi Michael,

A couple of points.

One is that you neither need nor want a marine biologist, since they typically work with fish (or worms, or whatever). You want an vertebrate anatomist or a paleontologist--a bone dude (or dudette). They typically work at museums, veterinary schools, and universities. Look for places with lots of nicely mounted skeletons.

With regards to carrying a blade around, I've used poster tubes to carry swords (jian), but all you need is a bag that disguises the sword's shape and makes you look harmless. Perhaps a guitar case?

Cheers,

F

[Gavin Nugent]

Yes, I remember that old thread and I have handled the mandau IRL.
But as far as I remember later on it was discovered that it wasn't human bone ...

Michael

Michael,

What was it discovered to be? I ask as many of your hilts show a patina found on very old and well handled human bones but then the practice of head hunting was pretty quick and I am sure they didn't hang around to take other limbs...of maybe they did now and then?

Gav

[Tim Simmons]

Bone density might be the answer here. Dugong are not deep diving sea mammals so thier bones are more dense than whales. As they live in water they have less dense bones for buoyancy. Land mammals have heavier dense bones certainly bones big enough for sword handles will be hard and dense. So if the bone is light and spongiform it may well be Dugong. Some interesting stuff on bone to follow when an item finishes on ebay.

[VVV]

Michael,

What was it discovered to be? I ask as many of your hilts show a patina found on very old and well handled human bones but then the practice of head hunting was pretty quick and I am sure they didn't hang around to take other limbs...of maybe they did now and then?

Gav

Gav, it was over 6 years ago I was offered it (May 2005 according to my files). Probably I wanted to have proof that it was human bone and didn't get it?
I just remember that we agreed on that it wasn't human bone for sure after all and I bought some other mandaus instead.

Michael

[VVV]

Ben, aka Dajak who posted the thread above that Gustav linked to, just mailed me.
He wrote that he later had showed the mandau to a surgeon who told him that it was human bone and might be from an arm. So maybe there is at least one mandau with a hilt made of human bone after all out there...

Michael

[VANDOO]

IT IS LIKEY THERE ARE NO CITES EMPLOYEES IN THE WORLD WHO COULD IDENTIFY A MANDAU HANDLE MADE OF SEA COW BONE AND LIKELY NONE WHO COULD EVEN IDENTIFY A COMPLETE SKULL. I WOULD THINK A LARGE RIB BONE WHERE IT CONNECTS TO THE SPINE WOULD BE OF THE RIGHT SHAPE AND SIZE FOR A MANDAU HANDLE.
I COULD ID A COMPLETE SKULL BUT NOT A PIECE OF CARVED BONE, I CAN ALSO ID HUMAN BONE IF THERE IS ENOUGH OF ITS ORIGINAL SHAPE REMAINING BUT A SMALL CARVED FRAGMENT ONLY CAN BE DONE IN A LAB EQUIPPED TO DO SO. SO AS LONG AS SEA COW OR ANY OTHER FORBIDDEN ITEM IS NOT MENTIONED IT SHOUILD PASS WITH NO PROBLEMS. I WOULD BE MORE CONCERNED IN SOME COUNTRIES WITH THEFT BY POSTAL EMPLOYEES OR CUSTONS AGENTS.
THE PROBLEM IS ALL PEOPLE WORKING IN THESE TYPE JOBS ARE TRAINED TO LOOK AT ALL OF THE GENERAL POPULATION AS A GUILTY SUBSPECIES AND THE ENEMY. UNFORTUNATELY SOME PEOPLE DO FIT THIS TYPE BUT MOST DO NOT.
THIS USED NOT TO BE THE CASE AS THEY WERE JUST TRAINED TO UPHOLD THE LAWS AND SERVE THE PEOPLE BY UPHOLDING THOSE LAWS. IF A PERSON STOPPED ALONGSIDE THE ROAD AND TOOK SOME FEATHERS FROM A DEAD BIRD THAT HAPPENED TO BE AN EAGLE IN THE OLD DAYS IF A WARDEN SAW THIS HE WOULD CONFISCATE THE BIRD WARN THE PERSON ASSUMING HE WAS NOT A POACHER BUT IGNORANT OF THE LAW AND THAT WOULD LIKELY BE THE END OF IT. TODAY THE PERSON WOULD BE PROSECUTED AND FINED TO THE FULL EXTENT OF THE LAW AND WOULD LIKELY SPEND MORE TIME IN PRISON THAN A MURDER. NOT BECAUSE THEY REALLY BELIEVED HE WAS A PROFESSIONAL EAGLE POACHER OR TO SERVE THE LAW JUSTLY BUT TO MAKE AN EXTREME EXAMPLE AND SET A PRECIDENT FOR FUTURE CASES.
IN THEIR DEFENSE MOST AGENTS ARE NOT LIKE THIS EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE OFTEN EDUCATED TO BE. BUT THERE ARE AGENTS OUT THERE WHO ARE BAD APPLES AND LIKE TO USE THEIR POWER TO CAUSE PEOPLE GREIF AND IF YOU RUN AFOUL OF ONE YOU WILL BE CONSIDERED GUILTY AND BAD NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY OR DO SO EXPECT NO MERCY.
I WORKED WITH THE CURATORS OF A NATURAL HISTORY MUSEUM IN HOUSTON TEXAS AND FOUND ALL OF THEM TO BE GOOD PEOPLE AND FAIR AND REASONABLE BUT THAT IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE.
I SENT AN ARTEFACT TO A LOCAL EXPERT AT A LOCAL COLLEGE FOR HIM TO GIVE AN OPINION ON. THE FELLOW I SENT IT WITH CAME BACK AND SAID IT WAS AN ATAL ATAL HANDLE OVER 10 THOUSAND YEARS OLD AND WAS MADE OF HUMAN BONE SO THE PROFESSOR HAD CONFISCATED IT AS PEOPLE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE HUMAN REMAINS.
IF ASKED I WOULD HAVE GLADELY DONATED IT TO THE UNIVERSITY COLLECTION BUT WHEN TREATED LIKE A LOOTER ALTHOUGH IT WAS A SURFACE FIND IN A RIVER AND WOULD HAVE BEEN DESTROYED SOON HAD I NOT FOUND IT. SO GET TO KNOW PEOPLE BEFORE YOU TRUST THEM BECAUSE CREDENTIALS AND DIPLOMAS DO NOT NECESSARLY INDICATE A GOOD MAN.
SUCH IS LIFE YA TAKES YOUR CHANCES. :shrug:

( SKULLS UNLIMITED ) IN OKLAHOMA CITY HAS EXAMPLES OF SEA COW AND MANATEE AND OTHER SKELETIONS (ALL LEGAL} THEY ARE A GOOD REFRENCE
, THEY USE THEM TO MAKE GOOD REPLICAS TO SELL. THE OWNER WOULD KNOW HOW TO ID THE BONES IN THE SKELETON BUT I DON'T KNOW IF HE COULD TELL MUCH LOOKING AT A MANDAU HANDLE.? I WILL HAVE A TALK WITH HIM WHEN I GO OVER FOR A VISIT NEXT TIME. YOU CAN GOOGLE SKULLS UNLIMITED FOR A LOOK AT HIS CATALOG ON LINE IF INTERESTED.

A SPECIALIST IN SEA COW WOULD BE ONE STUDYING THE CLASS SIRENIA TO WHICH IT BELONGS ALONG WITH THE MANATEE. THE STUDY OF WHALES (CETACIANS) MAY OVERLAP SO SPECIALISTS SHOULD BE OUT THERE ESPECIALLY DUE TO THE INTREST IN THE AMERICAN MANATEE.

[David]

A couple of points.

One is that you neither need nor want a marine biologist, since they typically work with fish (or worms, or whatever). You want an vertebrate anatomist or a paleontologist--a bone dude (or dudette). They typically work at museums, veterinary schools, and universities. Look for places with lots of nicely mounted skeletons.
Since you found the need to comment on my suggestion i must point out that a paleontologist is in no way a "bone dude", but one who studies paleontology, the study of all prehistoric life forms, both plant and animal and their fossilized remains.
A marine biologist is involved in the study of the origins, behavior, diseases, genetics, and life processes of animals and wildlife of the marine environment. It's a big ocean and i am sure that marine biologists specialize in certain sub-categories of their field, one of which would certainly include the study of marine mammals, Sea Cow included.
A vertebrate anatomist might be helpful, but frankly i am having a hard time finding any specific information on exactly what they do... :shrug: :)

[A. G. Maisey]

My sister-in-law is a prof emeritus in vertebrate anatomy, but she reckons she has very little knowledge of anything at all to do with marine mammals. Suggests that it could be a special field --- whatever that might mean.

[fearn]

Well, I can call someone a paleozoologist, but the way it tends to work, if you're a paleontologist, you typically study vertebrates. Otherwise, you're a paleobotanist, an invertebrate paleontologist, a paleoecologist, a paleoclimatologist, or whatever.

Go read the tetrapod zoology blog if you want to get an idea of what they do and what they're interested in.

That said the question is, is the bone from a dugong. There are a couple of ways to figure that out:
--destructively, with DNA sampling (bore into the bone, away from the surface treatment)
--non-destructively, by figuring out what bone it is (most likely rib or large vertebra) and matching it to the corresponding piece of a skeleton.

That's why you want a comparative anatomist. Paleontologists use this skill all the time, because typically, they get bits of bones from unknown organisms, and have to figure out not only what bone they have, but what the organism was and what it looked like. That's effectively the puzzle you have here.

So yes, you want a bone dude(or dudette). Preferably, you want an institution that has a dugong skeleton to hand, so you can figure out which bone it was by lining it up against the unaltered version. If it's not a dugong, the choices get interesting. Whale? Dolphin? Rhinoceros? Horse? Bovine? Human? There aren't a huge number of large-boned animals in that part of the world, so you should be able to work it out.

F

[asomotif]

If it's not a dugong, the choices get interesting. Whale? Dolphin? Rhinoceros? Horse? Bovine? Human? There aren't a huge number of large-boned animals in that part of the world, so you should be able to work it out.

F

It might even be stag from the sambar deer :) ;)

[David]

--non-destructively, by figuring out what bone it is (most likely rib or large vertebra) and matching it to the corresponding piece of a skeleton.

That's why you want a comparative anatomist. Paleontologists use this skill all the time, because typically, they get bits of bones from unknown organisms, and have to figure out not only what bone they have, but what the organism was and what it looked like. That's effectively the puzzle you have here.

Given that the hilt is firstly just a small part of the bone (if indeed it is bone and not antler) and then it is extensively carved i am afraid i cannot see any possibility that it could be matched to any existing whole bone for verification. Even when paleontologist work for fairly intact bones they have been know to make mistakes. I don't think there would be enough for them to work from here.

[fearn]

Actually, David, you'd be surprised.

For one thing, you have both the spongy inner core (trabecular bone) and the outer dense cortical bone.

So far as I can tell, it's not carved out of a cylinder, so it's not from the middle of a long limb bone. You can see that because the hilt is curved, but the trabecular bone is only on one corner. Assuming this is a correct observation, the bone came from a bone with a more complex shape, such as the head of a thigh or the vertebra of a very large animal.

The nice thing about bones with complex shapes is that they tend to be distinctive. This means they can be identified.

Without measurements, I can't tell whether this hilt could have been made from a human thigh (my guess is not). However, if you have a bunch of bones to compare it to, you can ask whether the hilt would fit within a particular bone. By process of elimination, you can get an ID.

Additionally, there may be clues in the texture of the bone that will allow it to be identified.

Were I the person with a mystery bone hilt, I'd approach a museum and say that I'm trying to determine the identity of the bone so that I can properly document it for CITES, or some such.

It's always possible that it can't be identified. However, if there's a later question about the identity of the bone (say from customs), you can whip out a letter that says that you took it to a museum, and Dr. Bone-Genius couldn't figure out what it was, except that there's no evidence it's from a CITES covered species, and it's too old to be covered anyway.

Either way, you get something from the exercise.

Best,

F

[David]

Were I the person with a mystery bone hilt, I'd approach a museum and say that I'm trying to determine the identity of the bone so that I can properly document it for CITES, or some such.
That's not a bad approach. If i were in NYC i'd probably go to the Museum of natural history where they are likely to have both manatee skeletons AND dayak swords. :)
Michael, do you have a good Natural History museum nearby?

[VVV]

snip...
Michael, do you have a good Natural History museum nearby?

Actually only a 5 minutes walk from the University. But no way I will walk around with an old head hunting sword, first among 1000's of museum visitors and then just as many at the campus. It's enough with those ninja wannabees that you read about in the newspapers now and then running around with practice iai-to and scaring people. :rolleyes:
So I wait for the blade smith working with this material to get back to me, hopefully tomorrow or early next week, so you can read his explanation.
I had around 80+ dayak parang, all of them with patination of different kind, in the room for us to discuss. After he showed me the first one it took me about a minute to spot the second one. None of the other hilts were even close in looks.

Michael

[VVV]

While writing the post above I got the response from the blade maker:

"Colours are so very typical for seacow; the yellow and the fainter brown / yellow are very typical.
The spongiosa is not as it would be with antler; this is bones spongiosa.
The quality of the reflections and polished surface is *absolutely* typical.

I will send you some pictures of hilts I made from seacow ( this was sold as "Steller´s Seacow) - made from the ribs of those animals.
Yours might be of a different species - anyway, I am absolutely sure. Of course I could be wrong, but this is my favourite bone material, and I happen to know it quite well.

I´ll be back with pictures, gimme a few days..
[...] the material I use is very very old and there are no CITES restrictions, as the Steller´s Seacow was obliterated in the 1800´s."

[fearn]

Hi Michael,

I'm telling you, violin and guitar cases were just made for carrying headhunting swords, especially on campus during summer. :D

Better though, it sounds like you have a real expert to tell you what you have. Great news.

Best,

F

[Mytribalworld]

Hi Michael,

I strongly doubt the whole Steller seacow story:

A: Its an artic living animal and of course its p[ossible that someone exported the bones to Borneo but actually I don't see any reason for that.
It should make the handle extra expensive while dearantler has almost the same effect.

B: the structure /grain of your examples are following the fork shape while a handle from seacow most likely should have all the grain in one line.

C: dearantler can be enourmous various in quality and color and it looks to me that ( the Kenya like) is carved quite near the spongeous centre.
If you come closer to that centre you have indeed more "bonelike" structure on the surface.

D: What I doubt if a animistic Dayak would easily accept to take a "dead ?'' bone from an animal he doesn't know and carve from that a handle that he carry with him the whole day.
Antler has a special reason as its one of the "fastgrowers" ( like hair, nails,tusks, horn) and so "loaded" with "living power",sometimes also special kinds of wood ( specially shaped roots etc).

E: About that human bone handles, maybe they are human and seacow as well, carved from the bone from an anourmous fat lady.....


:D :D :D

Arjan

[VVV]

Arjan,

On Steller's sea cow he doesn't claim that mine are that, only sea cow. The dugong, the one of the living species closest to Steller's, is found outside Borneo.
I am not a "hilt-material guy" myself so I will probably put you into contact with one that is and then it would be interesting to read your conclusions.
Your words "animistic Dayak" reminded me of an idea I got when he first told me about it being sea cow (Alan, please don't read this because I am speculating based on documented folklore from neighbouring places ;) )
If you are in the forest you want to have hilt material made from wood or a forest animal not to disturb the ruler of the forest. But if you are planning to join a pirate trip on the sea the ruler of the sea would be very angry if you had a hilt from a land based animal on your sword and ship (wood seems to be neutral being found both in the forest and drifting around on the sea).
This corresponds to the beliefs of the Malay fishermen who even had a special language to avoid mentioning land based animals when on the sea not to disturb the ruler of the sea. One version is the one studied (Annandale 1903) in Patani and Pahang where for instance a horse was renamed chehweh dras (= fishing language prefix + fast) and a buddhist monk chehweh kuning (prefix + yellow).

Michael

[Mytribalworld]

Arjan,

On Steller's sea cow he doesn't claim that mine are that, only sea cow. The dugong, the one of the living species closest to Steller's, is found outside Borneo.
I am not a "hilt-material guy" myself so I will probably put you into contact with one that is and then it would be interesting to read your conclusions.
Your words "animistic Dayak" reminded me of an idea I got when he first told me about it being sea cow (Alan, please don't read this because I am speculating based on documented folklore from neighbouring places ;) )
If you are in the forest you want to have hilt material made from wood or a forest animal not to disturb the ruler of the forest. But if you are planning to join a pirate trip on the sea the ruler of the sea would be very angry if you had a hilt from a land based animal on your sword and ship (wood seems to be neutral being found both in the forest and drifting around on the sea).
This corresponds to the beliefs of the Malay fishermen who even had a special language to avoid mentioning land based animals when on the sea not to disturb the ruler of the sea. One version is the one studied (Annandale 1903) in Patani and Pahang where for instance a horse was renamed chehweh dras (= fishing language prefix + fast) and a buddhist monk chehweh kuning (prefix + yellow).

Michael

But that should include that most seadayaks never travelled the sea with their deerantler handled swords and that those with the seacow handled sword never saw their wife and kids on the land.
If I must choose between an angry sea and an angry wife...... Hmmmmm....

[VVV]

But that should include that most seadayaks never travelled the sea with their deerantler handled swords and that those with the seacow handled sword never saw their wife and kids on the land.
If I must choose between an angry sea and an angry wife...... Hmmmmm....

Ha, ha, ha, not quite.
Please note that I only found sea cow hilts on the langgai tinggang (= sea dayak war swords), not the ilang (both war and utility swords).
In a way the hypothesis might also explain why you find some very high status parang with wooden hilts.
And as usual with folklore it can be quite local, just a small area. It might even be a requirement from the ship owners according to their beliefs.
But anyway I will try to find time later tonight to check some of my articles and books on Iban customs to see if I find something more about customs at sea.

Michael

[VANDOO]

IT IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY ANYTHING OTHER THAN DUGONG BONES WOULD BE USED AS THEY ARE THE ONLY MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP OF ANIMALS IN THE REGION AND WERE KNOWN AND HUNTED FOR FOOD. STELLER SEA COW BONES WOULD STILL BE AVAILABLE IN SOME NORTHERN LOCATIONS IN OLD TRASH HEAPS NEAR CAMPS OF WHALERS AND ESKIMOS. THE BONE WOULD NOT HAVE FOSSILIZED AND MAY STILL BE USED BY LOCAL TRIBES??
THE STELLER SEA COW BONES MIGHT BE A BIT LARGE FOR MANDAU HANDLES ANYWAY AS ADULTS WERE AROUND 30 FEET LONG. THERE ARE STILL REPORTED SIGHTINGS IN THE REGIONS WHERE THEY USED TO LIVE BUT NO CONFIRMATION OF ANY SURVIVORS SO FAR.
STELLAR SEA COW SKELETON

[fearn]

For modern hilts, there's a company that's making Alaskan ulus with "mermaid bone" aka Steller's Sea Cow bone. As with fossil mammoth tusks, the material is available. I don't know how far it ships, but I'd be unsurprised to see "mermaid bone" show up in any *modern* hilt.

As for traditional hilts, that's a different issue entirely.

F

[Mytribalworld]

Ha, ha, ha, not quite.
Please note that I only found sea cow hilts on the langgai tinggang (= sea dayak war swords), not the ilang (both war and utility swords).
In a way the hypothesis might also explain why you find some very high status parang with wooden hilts.
And as usual with folklore it can be quite local, just a small area. It might even be a requirement from the ship owners according to their beliefs.
But anyway I will try to find time later tonight to check some of my articles and books on Iban customs to see if I find something more about customs at sea.

Michael

Hi Michael,

I'm curious what you will find, I can image that Malay shippers had such requirements but I wonder if already we have problems with seeing the difference the shipper would and if the dayak would tell him the truth.

If the dayak themself had such requirements, I wonder how they should do that if transport on Borneo is mostly over the river.
should they make the difference between river and sea ? ( note that the villages in many cases of the big headhuntingraids where attacked from the sea and following the river upstreams)

other thing is ..do you have a pic of the whole Langgai with that Kenya like handle ? it would be interesting

Arjan

[VVV]

Thanks for publishing the picture of the sea cow skeleton!
It's easy to imagine that if you see such a skeleton on the beach you might think of a sea dragon, if that is a part of your world-view's probabilities.
In Hornbill and Dragon, by Bernard Sellato (1989), his, maybe a bit simplified, cosmology of the Dayak is that the Upperworld is the Hornbill and the Underworld the Dragon. On page 44 he writes "In the arts, other reptilian or aquatic animals - crocodiles, lizards, turtles, snakes, frogs, and fish - are equal to the dragon." On the same page he also claims "The Bornean dragon corresponds to the Indian makara water-monster..."
So why don't we see dragons on the parang hilts? Actually now and then you see a lizard hilt, even if it's quite rare (enclosed are 2 examples from Hornbill and Dragon). And below them is an example of a Makara on an Iban Jimpul from my collection. But these seem to be more of an exception than a rule.

Back to the hypothesis on if Malay beliefs somehow might have influenced Ibans when they started to travel by sea for their raids. I have used some quite old sources to investigate this because already in the late 1800's the British quenched those raids. Actually it was the same time that the Langgai Tinggang and the Nyabur were more commonly used as Iban war swords.
It is evident that the Ibans, who originally came from the inlands of Borneo, became pirating Sea Dayaks (instead of River Dayaks) first after they had contact with the coastal Malays of Sarawak. Here are some supports for this:

"The Dyaks of Sarebas and Sakarran, a brave and noble people, were taught piracy by the Malays who dwelt among them. These Dyaks were always head-hunters, and used to pull the oars in the Malay prahus for the sake of the heads of the slain, which they alone cared for. But, in course of time, the Dyaks became expert seamen. They built boats which they called bangkongs, and went out with the Malays, devastating the coast and killing Malays, Chinese, Dyaks, whoever they met with."
Sketches of Our Life at Sarawak, by Harriette McDougall (1882)

"The Sea Dyak's history likewise shows a growth of headworship parallel to the increasing importance of war. When they were mere agriculturalists. fighting only among one another over disputed ownership of land, they used to take the heads of their enemies slain in these battles; but it was not until the Malays taught them to grow rich by piracy that the passion for head-hunting became deeply rooted, and that they went on expeditions for the avowed purpose of getting heads."
The Influence of War and Agriculture upon the Religion of Kayans and Sea Dayaks of Borneo, by Margaretta Morris (1904).

Below is also enclosed a part copied from On the Wild Tribes of the North-West Coast of Borneo, by Lord Bishop of Labuan (1863) - Pasted Graphic 2.pdf.

The Lord Bishop also confirms the practice of secret languages among the Sea Dayaks - Pasted Graphic 3.pdf.

In The Relations Between Men and Animals in Sarawak, by Charles Hose; W. McDougall (1901) the authors confirm that the Iban have a lot of contact with the Malays and that this contact has influenced their belief system - Pasted Graphic 4.pdf.
They also give another reason why maybe an Iban would like to have something from a sea cow as a hilt and why it is so rare to see it - Pasted Graphic 5.pdf.

Michael

[VVV]

Too bad that my experiment with enclosing pdf files didn't work out as planned. But if you click on them you can read the copied texts.

Arjan, of course you are welcome to see any of my Langgai Tinggai whenever you feel like it but let's do it in private to focus on the thread theme.
I agree on the sea-river part and that's what I try to sort out above. Most expeditions were on the rivers but some were also on the open sea to more distant places. Those expeditions were usually performed together with Malays and other more experienced seafarers.

Michael

[David]

Actually only a 5 minutes walk from the University. But no way I will walk around with an old head hunting sword, first among 1000's of museum visitors and then just as many at the campus. It's enough with those ninja wannabees that you read about in the newspapers now and then running around with practice iai-to and scaring people. :rolleyes:
Michael, i am not suggesting to strap the sword on and walk around with it. The mandau can be easily packaged to conceal what it is. In the proper box no one is going to know what's inside.
When i was new to collecting i once brought a Moro kris to the curator of the Metropolitan Museum of Art's armory division. This, of course, required travelling with the well wrapped kris on the very crowded NYC subway system as well as through the streets and into the museum. No one was the wiser. I called the museu first and made an appointment. The curator was very happy to meet with me and explain what i had.

[VVV]

Michael, i am not suggesting to strap the sword on and walk around with it. The mandau can be easily packaged to conceal what it is. In the proper box no one is going to know what's inside.
When i was new to collecting i once brought a Moro kris to the curator of the Metropolitan Museum of Art's armory division. This, of course, required travelling with the well wrapped kris on the very crowded NYC subway system as well as through the streets and into the museum. No one was the wiser. I called the museu first and made an appointment. The curator was very happy to meet with me and explain what i had.

David, of course I know by now how to transport swords in public areas. Actually I have two sword bags especially made for this. And when I carry more than 5 swords I use my scuba diving bag. I just don't feel like doing it because I don't doubt myself that the hilt material is different than on all my other Dayak parang.

Michael

[David]

David, of course I know by now how to transport swords in public areas. Actually I have two sword bags especially made for this. And when I carry more than 5 swords I use my scuba diving bag. I just don't feel like doing it because I don't doubt myself that the hilt material is different than on all my other Dayak parang.
Well Michael, if that's your reasoning why didn't you say so to begin with? I'm glad you are so sure on this one and do not feel the need for the opinion of anyone with actual academic knowledge of such things. I admire your faith. :)

[VVV]

Thanks for your understanding David,

I just tried to be a bit more "diplomatic" about it earlier.

Michael

[asomotif]

Ben, aka Dajak who posted the thread above that Gustav linked to, just mailed me.
He wrote that he later had showed the mandau to a surgeon who told him that it was human bone and might be from an arm. So maybe there is at least one mandau with a hilt made of human bone after all out there...

Michael

I see Tim's remark has been deleted completely.
Maybe this post can be censorred too :confused: :rolleyes: :shrug:

[asomotif]

Michael,

I am pretty impressed by all the theories and citations from old books and publications that you can produce on this item.

Hopefully we can see the pictures of the steller seacow bone hilts in this thread. As seeing and recognizing that material will be quite interesting.

I have one hilt in my collection that has a distinctively different colour.
Maybe your relation can take a look at the pictures of that hilt ?

Best regards,
Willem

[Mytribalworld]

Michael,

I am pretty impressed by all the theories and citations from old books and publications that you can produce on this item.

Hopefully we can see the pictures of the steller seacow bone hilts in this thread. As seeing and recognizing that material will be quite interesting.

I have one hilt in my collection that has a distinctively different colour.
Maybe your relation can take a look at the pictures of that hilt ?

Best regards,
Willem

Willem, you live almost next to the Seacowbone-indificationcenter( beside de Kunsthal) ......why not ask them ?

Arjan

[VVV]

Isn't the Dugong ID center in Rotterdam known to be one of the best in Europe? ;)

Michael

PS Btw, yours doesn't look like dugong (based on your pictures anyway). But it is a very nice example of one of the rare dragon hilts!

[tom hyle]

The porous part seems to be narrow, rather than round/wide,as at the ball of a femur. I suspect it might be a piece from the curve of a jawbone, if indeed it is not an antler. On whales the jawbone ("pan bone") is said to be the only bone suitable to carving and making of useful objects.

[tom hyle]

The second hilt shown seems to show some irregularities of the original substance surface, between pommel and grip, that look like those of an antler. The denseness of the porous core is more suggestive of antler than of bone to me. It looks like antler.
BTW, elk is only solid at the tips. All antlers and horns are solid at the tips, though for varying lengths.
Different types of bone can be better or worse for these uses. Sheep bone is, for instance, flaky and peely.
Cattle, camel, and jiraffe are especially favoured for traditional bone goods. No camels or giraffes on Borneo, of course.
Given the fairly immediate obviousness of digesting beef, I often speculate that the popularity of humans associating with cattle has more to do with their particularly useful hides, bones, and horns than their meat.
Point is that there's a lot more to which bone to use than availability. Bones of animals can vary similarly to bones of trees, from specie to specie.

[asomotif]

Isn't the Dugong ID center in Rotterdam known to be one of the best in Europe? ;)

I visited the NMR (Natuurkundig Museum Rotterdam) yesterday and only found dolfins and other small whales on display.
They probably have a dugong skeleton in their collection, but the conservator Mr Moeliker is on holidays.

Anyway, these skeletons can be found on the WWWeb, and personally if I check the bones, I can not find any bone (yet) that would be suitable to carve a hilt in te shape of mandau hilts.
So if anyone has a serious suggestion which bone is suitable to carve a mandauhilt, I would be much obliged.

Best regards,
Willem

[tom hyle]

BTW, there has been quite a trade in arctic ivory (etc.) since at least the 18th and aparently somewhat world wide. I have an Indonesian statue of a rhinoceros made from what is clearly walrus tooth, for instance. So geography is no barrier to a material being used, or even popular, especially in seagoing cultures.
I find the sea/land division idea fascinating. Somehow seems to link to the tradition of not carrying kris across water?

[tom hyle]

Note that the porous core is not exposed at the top (ie. butt) side of the pommel hook, but only where it is carved down into its center. If this were a piece sawn from a longer bone, would this be the case? Seems like antler. Whatever it is, it seems it is pretty close to its original surface shape, and should be able to be matched up with an example. It fits up to an antler pretty well. Can we get (individual) pics of the candidate sea cow bones, with scale? Can we get a pic of a rib end? Does it have a forked or L-curved end?

[tom hyle]

BTW, I would be very careful taking any antique to any official person of any kind for identification or any other reason, especially curators or academics you don't personally know. To some of them we private collectors are all dirty looters, and there is a host of reasons they could decide to take your antique, or even charge you with criminal charges; not just CITEs but national treasure type laws, weapon laws, who knows....but then I'm autistic, so moving thru human culture is quite a dark and risky journey for me, and being turned down is clearly not the worst that can happen when asking for help.

[VANDOO]

THE UPPER END OF RIB BONES WHERE IT CONNECTS TO THE SPINE IS A LIKELY SHAPE FOR MANDAU HANDLES. THE RIB IS MORE ROUND THERE NOT FLAT AND THE END IS LARGER AND HAS A LARGE KNOB TO CONNECT TO THE SPINE. AS THERE ARE QUITE A LOT OF RIBS IN EACH SKELETON YOU WOULD HAVE SEVERAL SIZES AND SHAPES TO WORK WITH AS WELL AS A GOOD SUPPLY OF MATERIAL IN A SHAPE READY TO BE WORKED MORE EASILY. SORT OF LIKE THE FORK IN AN ANTLER.

[Mytribalworld]

THE UPPER END OF RIB BONES WHERE IT CONNECTS TO THE SPINE IS A LIKELY SHAPE FOR MANDAU HANDLES. THE RIB IS MORE ROUND THERE NOT FLAT AND THE END IS LARGER AND HAS A LARGE KNOB TO CONNECT TO THE SPINE. AS THERE ARE QUITE A LOT OF RIBS IN EACH SKELETON YOU WOULD HAVE SEVERAL SIZES AND SHAPES TO WORK WITH AS WELL AS A GOOD SUPPLY OF MATERIAL IN A SHAPE READY TO BE WORKED MORE EASILY. SORT OF LIKE THE FORK IN AN ANTLER.

Did you ever have handled the bones or ribs from a sea cow or seen from very close ?

The bones are looking to me as very spongeous ( more than the ribs) , so don't know if that material should be usefull. In Japan they seem only to make carvings from the ribs. There are enough ribs for sale online but I never see the bones......

see also that the structure ( rib bone)has some enclosements what you can see the best in the first pic.






There's also another thing and that's the reputation of the Dugong. It seems that in the Philippines people believe they are bringing bad luck,while in parts of Indonesia they are considered reincarnations of women.

[VVV]

Arjan,

The German blade smith also confirmed that he uses the ribs for his hilts (see above) so I assume those, and the more expensive tusks, are the parts to use for hilts.
On the wikipedia page you quoted it also says that the tusks are used for sword handles in the Gulf states.
All over the archipelago you will find keris hilts made from dugong, gading laut, but I am not sure if it's only the tusks or some other parts [ribs] are use for this too? So maybe "in parts of Indonesia they [Dugong] are considered reincarnations of women" isn't such a bad thing anyway?
The full wikipedia quote for Philippines is: "In the Philippines dugongs are thought to bring bad luck, and parts of them are used to ward against evil spirits." This also seems useful for a sword or knife hilt...

Michael

PS If you do a search for "dugong" on this forum you will see several reference pictures of dugong hilts.
Here is an interesting dugong related thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2250&page=2&pp=30&highlight=dugong

[tom hyle]

hmmm pics are good thanks. None of them show a hooked structure suitable to carve these hilts from, where there is clearly dense surface bone around the pith on all sides (ie including the butt side) of the hook.

[T. Koch]

Hi Vikingsword,

My name is Thor and I am a new member here. I hope you will all forgive me for practicing a bit of necromancy on this old thread, but I thought I'd try contributing with something to the forums for my first post here. I must also confess to having been lurking here for more than a year now and in that time I have been truly humbled by the level of knowledge on here. I've learned so much already and It is indeed an honor being in the company of you gentlemen!

I am a bachelor in biology, now undertaking my masters degree in human parasitology. To put food on the table meanwhile, I work for our Environmental Ministry here as part of the CITES Management Authority team where I am now on my 5th year. One of my many tasks at work , is looking at peoples' antiques in order to asses whether the materials used warrants the need for a CITES-permit/-certificate, i.e. if it's from a species contained within the CITES Appendices.

Basically I look at a lot of horn, bones, ivory etc. from different source species and this is where I think I might be of value to this, at this point albeit elderly, discussion.

Considering sea cows (order Sirenia) there are two extant families: Manatees, (Trichechidae) and the dugongs (Dungongidae), the latter consisting of only one extant species: The dugong, Dugong dugon. Now, the manatee species are confined to Afrcia and the New World, so they are conveniently excluded from the discussion at hand. The extant dugong however is dispersed over South East Asia, and is as such a likely candidate for source material.

One feature of the skeleton of the species in the family Dugongidae is the increased density, known as pachyostosis, of the rib bones. The weight of which the animal uses while swimming to keep on 'right keel', so to speak. It is exactly the density of this bone which makes it suitable for manufacture into tools and other items. Personally, the only Dugongid I've seen processed like this is the now extinct Steller's Sea Cow (Hydrodamalis gigas), the distribution of which was far more Northern than the extant dugong. As already mentioned, this is also the species, of which the ribs are utilized today by modern knife makers. The inuit tools I have personally seen from Steller's Sea Cow, had all been manufactured by Russian Inuit peoples, which have had a tradition for utilizing this species as part of their sustenance.

Now whether or not the Dayak likewise has/had a tradition for utilizing the extant dugong, local to Borneo, is beyond my area of expertise. Here I think it might be better consulting an anthropologist with a specialty in these people. On a further note, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if one of our members here, would be able to answer that: What do/did the Dayak catch and eat?

A last thing I would like to get around when on the topic of Sirenids, is that of alleged 'sea cow ivory'. We know from G.W. Steller's own notes that the Steller's Sea Cow didn't have any teeth, so that again leaves our extant dugong. Personally I have never seen, in photo or real life, any dugong ivory. Or let me rather put it this way: I have never seen any ivory which could not reasonably be explained as stemming from a different species of mammal.
Furthermore I have my doubts if there is any real ivory to be used on a dugong at all. While the dugong do not grow any canine teeth, the males do have two 'tusk-like' incisors, however these are fairly small, certainly compaired to tusks of other classic ivory-species, but also compaired to the objects they are supposedly carved into, i.e. sword and dagger handles.
To clarify, it is not that I believe that dugong 'tusks' was never a source of ivory, it is just that I have never seen anything to convince me otherwise. In the face of new evidence I am certainly anticipating a change of my position.

I submit to you here a picture of the skull from a Dugong dugon: http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/anatomical_images/family_pages/sirenia/dugongidae.jpg/view.html

Here one of a dugong skull in relation to a human male: http://www.customs.gov.au/site/content8949.asp


This concludes my introduction on these forums. I hope you found the above interesting – if you indeed made it all the way here to the end – and I apologize in advance for any linguistical or grammatical errors on the way. English is not my native language.

I am looking much forward to my time here with you gentlemen, thank you!



All the best, - Thor Koch

[VANDOO]

WELCOME TO THE FORUM WE OFTEN DIG UP THE BONES OF OLD POSTS HERE. :D
IT IS GOOD TO FIND SOMEONE WHO HAS ACTUALLY WORKED WITH THESE SKULLS. I HAVE SEEN THE BONES A FEW TIMES BUT DID NOT DO ANYTHING WITH THEM, LUCKY FOR ME. I HAVE SEEN THE TUSKS USED FOR CIGARETTE HOLDERS SO THAT SHOULD GIVE AN IDEA OF SIZE. YOUR PICTURES GIVE A GOOD IDEA OF SIZE I HAVE TAKEN THE LIBERTY OF INCLUDING YOUR PICTURES HERE AS OFTEN PICTURES VANISH IF NOT PROPERLY POSTED HERE AS SERVERS CHANGE OR VANISH AND INFORMATIO0N IS THUS LOST.
I HATED TO SEE GOOD SPECIMINS OF RARE MATERIAL SUCH AS SKULLS AND SUCH LAY IN A TRASH HEAP IN THE SWAMP BUT AM GLAD I DID NOT TRY TO SAVE THEM AS IN THE ONE LINK WHERE THE WOMAN LIKELY WENT TO JAIL AND WAS HEAVELY FINED EVEN IF SHE DID NOT KNOW WHAT THE SKULL WAS. THERE BUT FOR CAUTION GO I.
I FOUND THAT IT WAS EVEN AGINST THE LAW FOR THE OWNERS OF ANIMAL ATTRACTIONS IN AUSTRALIA TO KEEP SKULLS OR BONES OF THEIR ANIMALS OR TO PICK UP ROAD KILL TO FEED TO THEIR ANIMALS WITHOUT PERMITS. FOUND THIS OUT BY ASKING IF HE HAD ANY OLD TAZMANIAN DEVIL SKULLS AROUND I COULD LOOK AT. DID GET TO HOLD A LIVE ONE THEY SURE MAKE SOME SCARY NOISE AND SHOW SOME TEETH , MUCH SAFER LOOKING AT A SKULL. :D

[T. Koch]

Hi Vandoo! I'm here to tell you that you're right about the dugong ivory! I found a very nicely made 18th century Chinese bracelet made with pieces of dugong "tusks" (incisors), but can't for the life of me find the reference now. - I'll check into this topic again when I find it!

In the meantime, here is a native Australian piece from a collection at the University of Glasgow: http://www.huntsearch.gla.ac.uk/cgi-bin/foxweb/huntsearch/DetailedResults.fwx?collection=all&searchTerm=E.1928.49&mdaCode=GLAHM&browseMode=on

http://www.huntsearch.gla.ac.uk/archimages/E1928_49a.jpg

This is a much more crude piece than aforementioned Chinese bracelet, but it does however show that dugong ivory is both practically usable and that it indeed has a history of use in several cultures. As you yourself pointed out back in post No. #5 however, the size and shape of these "tusks" are not suitable for mandau handles.


So to recap, these are the standing questions atm:

1): Has bone been used as a source of mandau handle material, as we see it with sambar stag and wood?

2): IF bone has been used as handle material, which animal species did then supply the bone?


This is SO exciting I think, and I feel confident that we will get around it in due time. :)


All the best, - Thor

[VANDOO]

ITS GOOD TO SEE SOME PICTURES OF ITEMS ACTUALLY MADE FROM THESE TUSKS. I WAS A MARINE ZOOLOGY/ OCEANOGRAPHY MAJOR BACK IN THE LATE 1960'S SO HAVE A WIDE RANGE OF INTRESTS IN THE FIELD.
ONE THING I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED ABOUT THIS FAMILY OF ANIMALS IS THAT THEY HAVE SURVIVED AS WELL AS THEY HAVE. THEY ARE LARGE AND SLOW, STAY MOSTLY IN THE SHALLOWS, THEY HAVE NO MEANS OF DEFENSE. THERE HAVE NEVER BEEN VAST GROUPS OF THEM AND THEY ARE EDIBLE. MAN HAS FOUND THEM EASY TO HUNT AS THEY MUST SURFACE TO BREATHE AND NOT DANGEROUS AND ONE COULD MAKE A FEAST FOR A FAIRLY LARGE VILLAGE. EVEN MORE PUZZELING IS HOW DO THEY PROTECT THEMSELVES AND THEIR YOUNG FROM THE NATURAL PREDATORS. I WOULD THINK SALT WATER CROCODILES AND ALLIGATORS WOULD HAVE WIPED OUT THE DUGONG AND MANATEE LONG AGO. MAN WIPED OUT THE STELLER SEA COW BUT WHY HAD IT SURRVIVED LIVING WITH KILLER WHALES FOR SO LONG.
THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF UNKNOWNS ABOUT THE SPECIES BUT I SUSPECT THEY MUST HAVE SOME MEANS OF PROTECTION FROM THE NATURAL PREDATORS IN THEIR ENVIRONMENTS BUT UNFORTUNATELY NONE FROM MANKIND.

[VANDOO]

MANATEES,WITH HUMANS FOR COMPARISON THE BIG MALES GET UP TO 18 FEET LONG SO IT LOOKS ABOUT RIGHT. BUT I DON'T KNOW IF ITS MADE UP OR AN ACTUAL PICTURE. THE DUGONG IS SIMULAR IN SIZE WITH A DIFFERENT TAIL.

[Rick]

I think we're talking photoshop here Barry . :)

Manatees swim by my Mother's dock in Florida all the time .
I have never seen one that large in FLA waters at least .