Indonesian ? spear for I.D. and comment

[colin henshaw]

Hi

I've had this long spear for a while, and wonder if someone is able to identify it for me. I have thought of it as probably Indonesian, Batak ?

The shaft is very straight and regular - would it have been made on some sort of lathe, or all carved by hand ?

Thanks.

[Gavin Nugent]

A very fine looking piece.

The shaft is hand made no doubt, a lathe of this size would be troubsome to say the least, flex and flop would be out of control even with numberous support rollers along the bed of the lathe and I am unsure if the technology was available for this type of construction in the day.

I look forward to hearing more on the origins as I am afraid I can't be too exact....if you do ever grow tired of it, please do let me know, it would look great amonst my other lances :D

[Nathaniel]

Beautiful spear there Colin! Thanks for share! Looking forward to hearing what others have to say :)

[Henk]

Very nice. Congrats. I would say Sumatra, Aceh.

[asomotif]

Could be Sumatra, not necessarily Atjeh imho.

[Maurice]

Could be Sumatra, not necessarily Atjeh imho.Agree that it could be Sumatra but I don't think this is Atjeh!

Very nice spear though!

[fernando]

A very fine piece indeed, Colin !
I would even call it an elegant weapon :) .

[asomotif]

The silverwork is really nice.

Here is a thread for reference started by Danny.
Detelf posts an example with a similir spearhead :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13555&highlight=tombak+javanese

[Henk]

You got some response now Colin. I used the book by Zonneveld. That gives Sumatra, Aceh, for this kind of spears. Well, Aceh or not, probably Sumatra, but a very fine piece.

[Maurice]

As I noticed with some research I did recently on Danny's spears, I found out it's very difficult to nail down the origine of this kind of spears.
I'm almost sure that Danny's lances are Gayo/Atjeh lances.
Though this lancehead seem to be a little different in shape as the Atjeh/Gayo ones.

But that's just my feeling...

Lovely spear :-)

[colin henshaw]

Many thanks for the kind and informative comments and responses about this spear.

Regards,
Colin

[Maurice]

Colin,

The carvings in the wooden shaft: Are they all circular rings?
Or are there also some in other form? (can you post an image of the other shapes if there are?)

Thanks,
Maurice

[colin henshaw]

Colin,

The carvings in the wooden shaft: Are they all circular rings?
Or are there also some in other form? (can you post an image of the other shapes if there are?)

Thanks,
Maurice

Hi Maurice

The carvings on the shaft are just circular rings, here is a close-up image.

Regards.

[fernando]

Hand made rings ... right?

[colin henshaw]

Hand made rings ... right?

I have examined the rings carefully, and although they are quite regular, I think they have been cut by hand, as opposed to by any type of lathe.

[Maurice]

Thank you Colin for the image of the wooden shaft.

I looked around here and there if I was able to find a similar lance.
But unfortunately I didn't!

But I vote for Borneo! :rolleyes:
Not quite dayak, but in some area of Borneo where also Malay or Indonesian people or other outlandish people were wandering around...

Kind Regards,
Maurice

[colin henshaw]

Hi Maurice,

Interesting viewpoint on the origin of this spear. Now you mention it...the profile of the steel blade is quite like those to be often found lashed to the tip of Dayak blowpipes.

Do you have any references/illustrations you can post ?

Best regards
Colin



Thank you Colin for the image of the wooden shaft.

I looked around here and there if I was able to find a similar lance.
But unfortunately I didn't!

But I vote for Borneo! :rolleyes:
Not quite dayak, but in some area of Borneo where also Malay or Indonesian people or other outlandish people were wandering around...

Kind Regards,
Maurice

[Maurice]

That's indeed what I was insinuating, but also some spearheads from Borneo have this shape (not only the blowpipes)...
Also I've seen silver ferrules on spears with provenance from Borneo, and also I've seen such decoration on a wooden shaft of Borneo spears before.
But I could be mistaken ofcourse. But for me it feels like it has some Borneo features... :o

Is the part where the spearhead is entering the ferrule (accented yellow) as flat as the blade itself?
On the dayak lances and blowpipes I've had in the past and still have, this part was also flat as the whole tang, which is attached on the wooden shaft with braided ratan...(see examples).

[Henk]

Maurice,

I hate to admit it but you could be very right that this is a Borneo spear. Just checked my sumpitam and spear from Borneo. The spearblades have more or less the same profile. The silver ferrule gave me by the book by Zonneveld the conclusion Aceh. Now I go for Borneo as well.
Detail on my spear is that the blade is mounted as a sumpitamblade.

[colin henshaw]

Hi Maurice

Apologies for the late reply. Yes, this part is of much the same profile as the blade. Here is an image.


That's indeed what I was insinuating, but also some spearheads from Borneo have this shape (not only the blowpipes)...
Also I've seen silver ferrules on spears with provenance from Borneo, and also I've seen such decoration on a wooden shaft of Borneo spears before.
But I could be mistaken ofcourse. But for me it feels like it has some Borneo features... :o

Is the part where the spearhead is entering the ferrule (accented yellow) as flat as the blade itself?
On the dayak lances and blowpipes I've had in the past and still have, this part was also flat as the whole tang, which is attached on the wooden shaft with braided ratan...(see examples).

[Maurice]

Thanks for the image Colin.
Always different these spears to nail down the origin.

But I like to research them and "try" to find out more about them.
Thanks Henk, glad I've got you at my side now! :-)

Still vote for Borneo!

[asomotif]

Borneo ?

Hmm... I not yet convinced :p
Would love to see the full tang, but if it is firmly fixed please let it be.

[asomotif]

Here are 2 examples from the "Wereldmuseum" collection described as Sulawesi.
Unfortunately they have only one picture of the objects. I wonder what type of blade the one with the silver ferrule would have :shrug:

[asomotif]

Ps. 2 examples next to each other.

BTW, Maurice. This is not to undermine your Borneo theory. ;) Borneo is possible.
But especially this silver work can be found throughout the Archipelago.

[Sajen]

Ps. 2 examples next to each other.

BTW, Maurice. This is not to undermine your Borneo theory. ;) Borneo is possible.
But especially this silver work can be found throughout the Archipelago.

Hi Willem,

well done research. The affinity of the ferrules is amazing.

Regards,

Detlef

[Maurice]

Ps. 2 examples next to each other.

BTW, Maurice. This is not to undermine your Borneo theory. ;) Borneo is possible.
But especially this silver work can be found throughout the Archipelago.Yes almost identical:-)
But as I said before it isn't dajak!
Also I've seen lances with provenance from Borneo, with silver ferrules ornamented like these....
But what's make me saying that Collin's lance could be Borneo is because of the iron blade and the wooden shaft.
I've seen Borneo spears with identical carved circles in the wooden shaft as Colin's.....

I like these kind of puzzles....

Maurice

[asomotif]

I recently bought a borneo spear.

Slightly different metal decoration and unfortunately not silver.
The spearhead is layered forging. probably imported from Java.

The shaft is dark hard wood of the quality we see in blowpipes.
It has a simple decoration on the shaft.

Nice for comparrison.

Best regards,
Willem

[Battara]

I know that the blade is Javanese, but I also thought the brass sleeve was also Javanese style as well?

Nice piece in any case........

[Maurice]

Nice spear Willem.

Any provenance?

[colin henshaw]

A fine spear, similar sleeve to mine but different type of blade. Is the sleeve of brass not silver ?

Regards.

[asomotif]

I know that the blade is Javanese, but I also thought the brass sleeve was also Javanese style as well?
Nice piece in any case........
The sleeve is dirty but underneath the dirt it is sort of silver colour. I think it is a nickle alloy.

I have seen this type of sleeve decoration on Javanese, Sumatran and Borneo spears.
In RMV, Leiden I found an example that appears to be from Sulawesi.(see earlier in this thread)
So I can not pin-point it to a specific Island or region.
Maybe they where traded. maybe the silver craftsmen where scattered over te Islands coastal regions. :shrug:

Best regards,
Willem

[asomotif]

Nice spear Willem.
Any provenance?

Hi Maurice,

Old German collection, but not more specific than that. :shrug:
It came with 2 others.

[Gavin Nugent]

Posts 24 & 27 present the spear types recorded as Sulawesi based on Asomotif's Wereldmuseum attribution….but there seems to be conjecture about the possible origins throughout the thread.

Being a spear collector, it was bought to my attention, that Artzi had recently sold one of these types that he attributes to Thailand...Whilst don't think Thailand, for those more learned on Thai arms, is there any possibility these are from Thailand or the Malay borders of Thailand?

I ask because, whilst Artzi mentions no provenance, there is on a miniature scale and design, similarities in the way they carry a tsuba like sleeve as seen on Thai spears...although overall they differ so much in size, proportions & design ...

The blade type all seem to be in Java(ish) style with most I have seen having a differential core.

Thoughts and opinions on this attribution

Gavin

[asomotif]

Posts 24 & 27 present the spear types recorded as Sulawesi based on Asomotif's Wereldmuseum attribution….but there seems to be conjecture about the possible origins throughout the thread.

Being a spear collector, it was bought to my attention, that Artzi had recently sold one of these types that he attributes to Thailand...Whilst don't think Thailand, for those more learned on Thai arms, is there any possibility these are from Thailand or the Malay borders of Thailand?

I ask because, whilst Artzi mentions no provenance, there is on a miniature scale and design, similarities in the way they carry a tsuba like sleeve as seen on Thai spears...although overall they differ so much in size, proportions & design ...

The blade type all seem to be in Java(ish) style with most I have seen having a differential core.

Thoughts and opinions on this attribution

Gavin
Hello Gavin,

Here is are pictures of Artzi's Thai Spear and 1 from my example, now with cleaned metalsleev.
I see a lot of similarities with my example, that I think to be from Borneo.

- Both spears have a javanese blade.
- Both have the same metal decorated sleeves that we see on a lot of malay areas.
- Both have a dark hardwood shaft.
- Both have a scabbard of 2 parts, held together with rattan.

[Gavin Nugent]

I have been reading through various books and have also found further information and images noting that spears with these collars and blade types are from South Sulawesi....I hope it helps with supporting allocations already noted and more specifically, being from southern Sulawesi.

Gavin

[asomotif]

Digging up this old thread.
Just bought a Katalog describing a exposition in a German Museum.
3 spears contributed to Borneo.
Note the shaft of the upper and lower example as well as the sheaths.

[Albert]

Digging up this old thread.
Just bought a Katalog describing a exposition in a German Museum.
3 spears contributed to Borneo.
Note the shaft of the upper and lower example as well as the sheaths.

I am interested in this Katalog. :confused:
Does it contain more information on Indonesian weapons?
What is the title?

[asomotif]

The Catalog is in German and the title is "Flussaufwaerts"
200 pages, many pictures of Dayak objects from the Makahakam area collected in the 1970's - 1980's

I have a few copies available.

Best regards,
Willem