Small axes for ID

[Atlantia]

Picked these up today.
Pretty sure they are a weapon form and not a tool this time! (despite their hammer backs) ;)
Sizes as shown by compasion with my ancient mobile, rather small. Very sharp and well aged.
Punched dot decoration, similar but not a pair.
Shafts are clearly old but not original.
The decoration is in the form of flowers in a vase on both!
Managed to get the head off of the small one, it weighs about 350g.
Any ideas?

[Atlantia]

Obviously first thought was Indian, but.......
The closest things I can find is this one in Stones, described as:
"Ceylon or Malabar XVIII"

[Runjeet Singh]

Hard to put them geographically, perhaps Central Indian (Deccan?) going toward the South as you have already stated.

The punch dot decoration tells me victorian (late 19thC) and the 'flowers in a vase' decoration supports that, but the axes themselves look older.

Good find.

Thanks,
Runjeet

[Runjeet Singh]

Having a think, and I would perhaps edge towards Deccan and the north rather than the south for your two axes. This form and shape of axe head is quite common throughout India, and I think Stone was referring more (although not exactly) to this type:


Thanks,
Runjeet

[DhaDha]

They look great. How long are the shafts? Cheers

[Atlantia]

Having a think, and I would perhaps edge towards Deccan and the north rather than the south for your two axes. This form and shape of axe head is quite common throughout India, and I think Stone was referring more (although not exactly) to this type:


Thanks,
Runjeet


Runjeet,

Thanks for your help. Very much appreciated :)
Would these be classed as saddle axes or something else?

Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

They look great. How long are the shafts? Cheers


Hi DhaDha,

At the moment the shafts are a piddly 16 1/2 inches.

Thanks for preempting my next question, What sort of shaft would suit them? Shape, length etc?

I was thinking, more like 20inches?

Best
Gene

[DhaDha]

Here's one with a small head and a longer shaft from Runjeet's site. 27", if I remember? Love the simple design.

[Atlantia]

Here's one with a small head and a longer shaft from Runjeet's site. 27", if I remember? Love the simple design.

OOh! 27"!!
I feel a couple of hickory tool shafts might be in order.......
Thanks :)

[Runjeet Singh]

DhaDha,
You have a great memory! I had forgot about that one, yeah it was a nice piece, very elegant. I cannot remember the exact dimensions but 27" works out close to the proportions in the photos.

Gene,
Here is the full image if you want to get a better idea of the detail on the shaft. Thanks both,
Runjeet

[Runjeet Singh]

I must visit my own site more regularly :o .....the small axe which DhaDha reminded us of is on page two of the Armour and Polearms page, along with another one Gene which you may find interesting.


Thanks,
Runjeet

[Atlantia]

I must visit my own site more regularly :o .....the small axe which DhaDha reminded us of is on page two of the Armour and Polearms page, along with another one Gene which you may find interesting.


Thanks,
Runjeet



Hi Runjeet,

Thanks for that, I've got a good idea of what to aim for now.
Just had a look on a certain auction site and there are plenty of 4'-5' o Staffs in a variety of wood, that should make a good pair of shafts for these.
:)
Thanks again.
Best
Gene

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Runjeet,

Thanks for that, I've got a good idea of what to aim for now.
Just had a look on a certain auction site and there are plenty of 4'-5' o Staffs in a variety of wood, that should make a good pair of shafts for these.
:)
Thanks again.
Best
Gene
Nice axes you have. I collect arabian axes from the Mussandam peninsular, at the gateway to the Gulf. The tribal group there (Shihuh) have an axe which doubles up as a walking stick utility item/defensive weapon and badge of office icon. It appears to originate from the Persian Luristani axe. The shaft almost 3 feet long and various sizes of axehead from about 2 inches long to about 3 and a half.

[Atlantia]

Nice axes you have. I collect arabian axes from the Mussandam peninsular, at the gateway to the Gulf. The tribal group there (Shihuh) have an axe which doubles up as a walking stick utility item/defensive weapon and badge of office icon. It appears to originate from the Persian Luristani axe. The shaft almost 3 feet long and various sizes of axehead from about 2 inches long to about 3 and a half.

Hi Ibrahiim,

Very impressive collection you've got there!
Interesting that one of yours has a very similarly shaped distinctive 'hammer' back to the ones on mine (below)

Best
Gene

[Tim Simmons]

These are European. East European. Hungarian/Romanian or other east European herders weapon tools.

[Atlantia]

These are European. East European. Hungarian/Romanian or other east European herders weapon tools.

C'mon Tim

European is OK, but herders weapons!!!
;)

Do you have any references or examples?

Best
Gene

[Jim McDougall]

The stippled decoration on the axe face, I agree with Runjeet, does seem to correspond to this kind of decoration in India in later period, 19th century. It should be noted that it is also a characteristic of markings on the weapons in Bikaner armoury in Rajasthan, which simply reveals that the punched dot style for decoration and inscription was popular in these regions....I am not suggesting these are from Bikaner, nor armoury applied, only the style of decoration.

I recall seeing the small head, long shaft type utilitarian walking axes that Tim has mentioned for Eastern European regions, as well as similar as mentioned by Ibrahim on the Arabian peninsula.

While serving as walking staffs these certainly would double as weapons much in the sense of the well known sword canes of Europe....so you're right Gene, I think you got a weapon here :) I think shorter shafts would simply indicate more of a belt axe.

All best regards,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

The tulip motif seen here is a very standard decorative pattern on Hungarian and Romania "folk art" these look like very nice old pieces. Rural folk would have decorated items like this to chop wood and hammer things way before B&Q DIY stores. I do not have pictures of the very same axes but lots of pictures showing the style and decorative devises used to decorate and make jolly all sorts of domestic items. Folk art is very sought after.

[Jim McDougall]

The tulip motif seen here is a very standard decorative pattern on Hungarian and Romania "folk art" these look like very nice old pieces. Rural folk would have decorated items like this to chop wood and hammer things way before B&Q DIY stores. I do not have pictures of the very same axes but lots of pictures showing the style and decorative devises used to decorate and make jolly all sorts of domestic items. Folk art is very sought after.


The tulip motif is a highly favored Ottoman device which was favored as well in earlier Mughal courts, but the tulip rage in the 17th century certainly carried influences from the Netherlands far across Europe, and as noted was key in folk art context in Eastern Europe. Im not sure whether that would be connected in any way, but the tulip as motif was definitely widespread and notable.

[Atlantia]

:eek:
Would it be useful if I cleaned one up to show clearer pictures?

Thanks everyone :)


Jim, the short shafts on them are rubbish, clearly been on them for a while, but nowhere near as old as the axes.

I scoured the car boot sales today for vintage gardening tools and got two 40+ year old long handled Hoes with beautiful straight grained shafts.
Both 4'+ long :)

Which will be good if we can 100% positively ID these so I can remake the correct shafts.
They are so distinctive with the punched decoration and octagonal to circular hammer backs.
Both are very similar but different, so I'd venture that they may well be representative of a specific ethnographic type, rather than possibly just an atypical pair.
Interestingly, one has dot decoration all across the face of the hammer and around it randomly 'peppering' the surface.
So I'd guess that at least the hammer part is not meant to be used as a tool?

[Tim Simmons]

You have not shown the handles. Here are a few pictures of Hungarian folk art. I could add lots more. Agreed the tulip is also seen on Ottoman artefacts but I do not think what we have here is the case.

[Atlantia]

Hi Tim,

The handles at the moment are just short bits of plain wood roughly fitted.
Completely wrong. :(

Best
Gene

[Tim Simmons]

This picture looks like the original handle. A household kindling cutting axe with a hammer might only have a simple handle. I think you can buy a hammer axe DIY thing today but nowhere near as pretty or treasured in a non global consumerist society.

[Atlantia]

Hopefully some better pics (Now I've cleaned them) will be helpful?

I was going to scrub them, but the patina is so deep and dark and old.
It almost seems wrong to take them back to silver metal?

[Tim Simmons]

Very nice.

[Atlantia]

And the shafts (they come off fairly easily and really easily)
One has 'X' wedges, the other nothing.

[Atlantia]

Very nice.


Thanks mate :)

You see what I mean though, these are SO distinctive that they have to be a distinct recognisable ethnographic type.

Truth is, I'll be gutted if they are a household item (kindling axe!!)!
;)


Best
Gene

[Tim Simmons]

Yes Hungarian. :D Whats wrong with that :shrug: . :)

[Atlantia]

Yes Hungarian. :D Whats wrong with that :shrug: . :)


I can see the possibility of Eastern European, but I'm struggling to see them as mere 'utility' axes.
My reasoning:
The shape of the cutting edge and narrowness of the blade doesn't make for good kindling splitting.
The smaller of the two doesn't even have a cutting edge thats parallel to the shaft (see pic below)
Despite the simplicity of the punched decoration, these are quite an elaborate piece of metalworking, far more than I would expect from a ulitity piece.

I don't know, perhaps I just hope that you are wrong on that and they are 'battle axes'.

Best
Gene

[Tim Simmons]

I can see no reason why you could not seriously hurt a person with one. :shrug:

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Gene,
Illustration from the Chatterbox magazine March 30th 1872 of Roumanian smugglers complete with axe, obviously I can't be sure of the historical accuracy of the illustration. :shrug:
Regards,
Norman.

[Emanuel]

Hi Gene,

Nice axes!! As a Romanian I'll chime in. I think Tim might be right. I have seen this type of axes in Romania. Sheep herders, woodsmen, etc... I remember one instance we met with a ranger in the forest and he was lamenting not being allowed to carry a rifle, so he had two of these smaller axes at his side and a knife (and lots of dogs :) ) to fend off wolves and bears as well as he could. I don't remember these dot markings though. I will visit Romania later this summer and will make a point of checking.

The similarity to Indian/Persian blades is understandable. The Romanian word for axe "topor" comes from the Indian "tabar" via the Ottomans.

Cheers,
Emanuel

[Emanuel]

Here are some miscellaneous Romanian axes demonstrating simple punched decoration.

E

[Jim McDougall]

Emanuel and Norman, beautifully done on the support for Romanian axes!!!!
Its really great to see suggestions followed through in this way, and show that Tim's well placed and already well supported note via his showing the tulip decoration seem entirely correct. I think the most fun here is when discussions are developed with such supporting material and we all get to learn more together.
Thank you so much guys!!! :)

All the best,
Jim

[Atlantia]

Tim, Norman and Emanuel
Excellent teamwork there ;)
You've certainly made an argument for a possible eastern European origin.

I still can't help but feel that whatever they are, they are a specific type in their own right, so we should be able to find clear pictures of another example to compare them with.
They are so distinctive.

I'm still on the fence about them.
I can see merit for all of the theories proposed so far, but I think that until we find another identified example to nail them down we won't have a consensus.

I've expanded this request to other collecting forums and similarly, if anyone reading this knows for sure or can show/link to another of these for reference, then please email me at: gimmieitbaby@aol.com

Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

Would it be worth asking on the Euro side of the forums if these may be from Eastern Europe?

[Atlantia]

Tim, Emanuel and Norman.

Continuing the quest, I've tried to make or disprove the case for these being Eastern European.......

I've looked for further information on 'Shepherd axes' of Eastern Europe.
'Fokos' in Hungary, other names are: 'valaška', 'ciupaga' etc.

Wiki page "Shepherd's Axe". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd%27s_axe)

The usual form is almost like a long handled Tomahawk, often with a slightly downcurving asymetric blade. This is to allow them to be gripped on the head and used like a walking stick.
After some extensive trawling, I have found a couple of pictures of crescent shaped 'shepherds' axes'. But they usually still allow for a semi-comfortable hand grip on the blade for the above purpose.
Mine feel horrible if gripped in that way, the smaller one especially, combined with the extreme curve of the cutting edge and small size mean that even trying to find a 'comfortable handhold' to test my theory meant that I painfully scraped my hand quite a few times.


Looking through the Wiki page, it makes this point about the shape of these axes, and makes some interesting comments about their decoration (a point already of course made by Tim):

"A shepherd's axe is a light axe with a long and straight wooden shaft, often with a metal butt. The length of the shaft is usually slightly more than 1 metre. The shafts were usually engraved as their owners had plenty of time for crafting.

A small metal head-piece is sharp on one side while the other side is flat and can be used as a hammer. The head-piece is formed to fit comfortably into the hand so the shepherd's axe could be used as a walking stick.

Today's shepherd's axes are mostly decorative, some having golden or silver head-pieces (mostly it`s brass, iron, chromed iron, wood or aluminum - to be true I have never heard of any axe head made of gold or silver). Many are considered works of art (esp. those made up to the 60s by highlanders). They were skillfully stamped/adorned according to ancient tradition. The main motives were the sun, stars (whirl), comets, tree of life, flowers, trees such as fir or spruce, and various geometric designs. Some smiths used many different, elaborated stamps."


One other thing that seems to work against them being this type of axe, is the shape of the shaft hole.
All of the specifically identified 'shepherds axes' and 'walking axes' that I can find have non-circular holes. In fact most have squared off holes for obvious reasons.

However!
The wiki article also mentions that:
"In Hungary, modified axes were also used as martial weapons by Hungarian warriors in the medieval age, used for example in the 18th century in Rákóczi's War for Independence against Austrian soldiers. In the 17th and 18th century, Hungarian Kuruc leader Imre Thököly and his soldiers used shepherd's axes as weapons. Hungarian shepherds in the northern regions used it also as a tool."

I could easily see these as 18thC, could they be one of these 'modified' (weaponised?) forms mentioned above?

Sadly, the best 'paintings' of these Hungarian warriors (Imre Thököly etc) seem to show them with rather fine war-hammers. So not really much help.However, here is a diagram of one of these soldiers with a 'Fokos'
Sorry for the size, but I think that you can see the general shape and size seems to be superficially similar:

[Atlantia]

Below are the closest photgraphs that I can find of axes purportedly of this type. Similarities for sure, but I can't find anything close:

[Atlantia]

So, I'm still on the fence here.
It's only when you start searching that you realise just how widespread axes of this general type are and how subtle the differences can be. Across the world for thousands of years.

These certainly seem to share similarites with several distinct ethnographic types.

The Crescent shape and circular shaft hole are commonplace amongst Indian/Indo-Persian axes, which are also often small.
So are they Indian as Runjeet suggested?
There's certainly a compelling argument for that origin.

Are they a 'shepherds axe' or 'walking axe' from eastern Europe?
I'd have to say that on the evidence of them being uncomfortable to hold and having the circular shaft hole, I'd say no they are not.
However, are they one of the specifically weaponised versions mentioned?
Or a 'smugglers axe'......
I'd say Possibly.

Are they an obscure Arab form, such as those from Habban?
Again, there are certain similarities.



:(
It's tasking me now.

[M ELEY]

Coming in late on this one with my .2 cents. On many of these early axes, the "hammer" was in fact a counter-weight to the cutting edge. It was the same on colonial American trade axes, native American tomahawks, etc. I don't think these were strictly utility, but like the above mentioned axes, were probably both a tool and a weapon. Their thickened, bearded blades very closely resemble many boarding axes of the period sans spike.(again, a tool and in time of need, a lethal weapon) The patterning, although it could be E. Euro, strikes me as E Indian, so-called Hindi-dot pattern. I've seen somethiong like these on the old defunct tomahawks page. Perhaps I can find the link...

[Atlantia]

Coming in late on this one with my .2 cents. On many of these early axes, the "hammer" was in fact a counter-weight to the cutting edge. It was the same on colonial American trade axes, native American tomahawks, etc. I don't think these were strictly utility, but like the above mentioned axes, were probably both a tool and a weapon. Their thickened, bearded blades very closely resemble many boarding axes of the period sans spike.(again, a tool and in time of need, a lethal weapon) The patterning, although it could be E. Euro, strikes me as E Indian, so-called Hindi-dot pattern. I've seen somethiong like these on the old defunct tomahawks page. Perhaps I can find the link...


More the merrier. Thanks for coming into the discussion :)

I've taken some proper measurements:
The larger axe head is 13.5cm/10cm, Weighing (approx) 380g minus the shaft.
The smaller axe head is 10.5cm/9.25cm weighing about the same: 380g.


Just as a page 2 reminder, here they are again:

[katana]

Looking at the hammer head....2 things spring to mind. One.... efficient hammer 'faces' are very slightly domed, these are flat, secondly, there seems to be no marks/damage indicating use as a hammer.

I too believe that these are purely for balance. Below I have marked the axe heads with the centre of the shaft hole, the edge of the hammer and the back edge of the blade. The distance from the centre line to the hammer edge and the centre line to the back edge are almost identical (in ratio)for each axe. The measurements are approx. on the picture and are only to scale (so not actual dimensions), but I hope it shows better what I mean.The maker seems to have been very exacting in ensuring 'balance'. On a long shaft this would be important as imbalance would be more exagerated as the shaft is 'lengthened'.

When I first saw these axes, I immediately thought Indian. I do not think these are utilitarian. The angle of the blade (off-set, diagonal from the shaft) would not be ideal for cutting wood etc. (better to have the blade in-line with the haft) Some carpenter axes are off-set (left or right, from the centre line) but are still in-line to the shaft.

I believe the angle of the axe blade is to ensure a good cut when it is mount on a long shaft and used from horseback.....I believe that these are IMHO saddle axes.

Kind Regards David

[Tim Simmons]

These pictures might help. I know a vase of flowers is seen on many Persian and Turkic carpets but I still do not see the work on these axes as Turkish or further east.

[katana]

It seems these axes may be explained by 'cultural movement'.

The Roma (Romani) were Hindu's that originated from North India and due to historic reasons migrated and diffused into Eastern Europe and beyond. A lot of Roma resided in Hungary ...and therefore had cultural roots in India. Perhaps the axe design is indeed Indian ...but with 'local' decoration .....

Regards David

[Atlantia]

Hi Gene,
Illustration from the Chatterbox magazine March 30th 1872 of Roumanian smugglers complete with axe, obviously I can't be sure of the historical accuracy of the illustration. :shrug:
Regards,
Norman.

Did you read the transcript of the accompanying passage to that picture Norman?

"CHATTER BOX
Published for the Proprietors by W. WELLS GARDNER, 10 Paternoster Row, London. Printed by John Strangeways,] [Castle Street, Leicester Square

No. 18. March 30, 1872. Weekly—One Halfpenny.

ROUMANIAN SMUGGLERS.

ROUMANIA, otherwise called Wallachia and Moldavia, a country watered by the Danube, and not far from the Black Sea, is inhabited by a wild and lawless set of people, who have proved themselves very difficult to rule, and who are constantly changing their government.

Smuggling in this land is by no means confined to the lower classes. Even the nobles are engaged in it. They smuggle goods chiefly to and from Austria, through the wild passes of the Carpathian Mountains. The horses they employ in this trade are small, wiry, and strong; as to the appearance of the men themselves, it is certainly picturesque, their costume being a mixture of that of several nations. The hat is Hungarian, generally gaily decorated; on their shoulder is an embroidered leather strap, which indicates that its owner has once served as a soldier in the Austrian armv; the linen shirt has a Wallachian cut. and the girdle round the waist, which is richly embroidered, betrays the same nationality. The foot-gear of the men in our illustration is not Wallachian, for they always wear sandals, and our cavalier with the hatchet in his hand wears high bpots. It is a strange article which these men are going to smuggle over into Austria, and which they carry in stone pitchers—it is leeches, which are abundant in Roumania, and upon which there is a heavy export duty. It is through one of the narrow, steep passes of the Carpathian .Mountains that these smugglers are passing, wishing of course to avoid the Custom-houses. They carry other things as well as leeches, probably a good stock of tobacco; and if they succeed m keeping their booty safe they will make a large profit. Seven villages in a lonely valley among the Carpathian Mountains are famous as the abode of smugglers, and to these places the government often send an armed band of Custom-house officers, who search every house, and generally carry off rich spoil, in spite of the clever way in which the smugglers hide their contraband goods."



Interestingly the site I found this transcript on also mentions a Description of the “mountaineers” in the Carpathians from 1844.


“The mountaineers here are called Huzzulen as in Bukovina. We found two of them sitting by the fire at the inn, leaning upon their hatchets. They told us that they were never without their hatchets, that they travelled with them, danced with them, and wore them as a part of their Sunday finery. They went to church with their hatchets, but did not take them into the church. They hung them upon wooden posts outside, from which each on coming out took down his own again.”

[Atlantia]

Looking at the hammer head....2 things spring to mind. One.... efficient hammer 'faces' are very slightly domed, these are flat, secondly, there seems to be no marks/damage indicating use as a hammer.

I too believe that these are purely for balance. Below I have marked the axe heads with the centre of the shaft hole, the edge of the hammer and the back edge of the blade. The distance from the centre line to the hammer edge and the centre line to the back edge are almost identical (in ratio)for each axe. The measurements are approx. on the picture and are only to scale (so not actual dimensions), but I hope it shows better what I mean.The maker seems to have been very exacting in ensuring 'balance'. On a long shaft this would be important as imbalance would be more exagerated as the shaft is 'lengthened'.

When I first saw these axes, I immediately thought Indian. I do not think these are utilitarian. The angle of the blade (off-set, diagonal from the shaft) would not be ideal for cutting wood etc. (better to have the blade in-line with the haft) Some carpenter axes are off-set (left or right, from the centre line) but are still in-line to the shaft.

I believe the angle of the axe blade is to ensure a good cut when it is mount on a long shaft and used from horseback.....I believe that these are IMHO saddle axes.

Kind Regards David


Excellent thinking!
I've been wracking my brain, as I'm sure I had an axe with an ofset angled cutting edge before. But I've had som many over the last 25+ years I can't remember which one it was!
Both of these two has that feature, although it's only slight on the other one.
Great detective work BTW :)
Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

These pictures might help. I know a vase of flowers is seen on many Persian and Turkic carpets but I still do not see the work on these axes as Turkish or further east.

Hi Tim,

Again, excellent detective work. The similarites are undeniable.
We must be close to finding another example now!

Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

Remember, Any 'lurker' who can help, please email me at:
gimmieitbaby@aol.com

[Atlantia]

'Romulus' a Romanian member on another forum has been discussing the possible connection with E.Europe.
He has concluded:
"About the Huzzulen ("Hutsuls" in english, "Huţuli" in romanian)... You could find some more informations here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutsuls
They are not the only mountaineers in the Romanian Carpathians, but they are a distinctive group with a blurred origin. They speak a dialect of the ukrainean language mixed with romanian influences. They live in two main areas in Romania : Bukowina (Bucovina in romanian) and in Upper Moldavia (mountain part of Moldavia, opposed to Lower Moldavia which is mainly a plain and a steppe. A large part of Lower Moldavia is now The Republic of Moldavia, former Soviet Republic of Moldavia) and in Ukraine too (Ukraine include a large part of Bukowina). Very interesting is the fact that one of the areas inhabited by Hutsuls consists of 7 villages (now 8, one of those villages is new) in a remote mountain valley, exactly like in the text you posted. They are renown for their specific breed of mountain horses.
About the picture you posted, you can see in the Hutsuls page on Wikipedia a picture with a horseman that has striking similarities with one of those in your picture but the Hutsuls don't wear their hair in braided tails like the one leading the smugglers group in your picture. This custom is specific to hungarians and transylvanian romanians in the mountain regions in south-western and western Transylvania.
About the fact that that smuggler served in Austrian army, there were three border regiments formed from romanians and one regiment formed with hutsuls in the austrian army. They were asigned especially to guard the mountain borders and they were expert skirmishers trained in guerrilla-like tactics, best training for a smuggler ...
About the axes, I don't really think that they are from Transylvania (they look more like indo-persian/turkish axes), I just pointed out that the decoration pattern is similar, but I don't exclude the posibility that they could be, because there was a huge turkish influence on weapons and armor used by trasnylvanians, moldavians and wallachians from late XV century to early XIX century."

[kahnjar1]

Remember, Any 'lurker' who can help, please email me at:
gimmieitbaby@aol.com

I have already "lurked" but due to possible copyright have not "published" here. Perhaps a reference to the chapter on Axes in Elgoods Arms and Armour of Arabia might produce some comment......particularly the last section of that chapter, and the photo which appears there. I see that no one else has suggested an Arabian origin.
Stu

[Emanuel]

Nice investigative piece this thread :)

The bit about the Transylvanian smugglers is interesting.

Wish I could bring in some more points but I've got nothing except to restate the Ottoman influence.

A thought about these two axes... they look like they might have been produced by the same smith, perhaps in a series, hence their look like a "type". Romanian tools and weapons were far more fluid though. The Polish ciupaga is a much more rigid and formalized, but there aren't any real Romanian "types" for any kind of sword or tool that I know of, as the area was heavily influenced by the Ottomans, Slavs, Hungarians and Saxons. :shrug:

The original handles might have helped as wood carving can be very distinct.

Keep up the search :Thumbs up:
Emanuel

[Atlantia]

I have already "lurked" but due to possible copyright have not "published" here. Perhaps a reference to the chapter on Axes in Elgoods Arms and Armour of Arabia might produce some comment......particularly the last section of that chapter, and the photo which appears there. I see that no one else has suggested an Arabian origin.
Stu


Hi Stu,
thats it, you've got to expand and elaborate on your theory now ;)

Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

Nice investigative piece this thread :)

The bit about the Transylvanian smugglers is interesting.

Wish I could bring in some more points but I've got nothing except to restate the Ottoman influence.

A thought about these two axes... they look like they might have been produced by the same smith, perhaps in a series, hence their look like a "type". Romanian tools and weapons were far more fluid though. The Polish ciupaga is a much more rigid and formalized, but there aren't any real Romanian "types" for any kind of sword or tool that I know of, as the area was heavily influenced by the Ottomans, Slavs, Hungarians and Saxons. :shrug:

The original handles might have helped as wood carving can be very distinct.

Keep up the search :Thumbs up:
Emanuel

I still generally feel that the shafts would have been long. Based on the shape and size of the axe.
I may just go ahead and make new ones anyway. Perhaps it'll help with the 'struggle' to pin their origin down!
Well, if I can find a bloody spokeshave (nowhere in the town I work in had one today)

Thanks for your help :)

Best
Gene

[kahnjar1]

Hi Stu,
thats it, you've got to expand and elaborate on your theory now ;)

Best
Gene

Thanks Gene,
All I can do is refer to Elgood Arms and Armour of Arabia,and the comments relating to the Hadhramaut axe of which a pic appears on page 36. He describes this axe as unique to Habban in the Wahidi Sultanate of western Hadhramaut. This axe, he says, has design features including cross hatching and dots.
Allowing for the fact that these were most likely locally cast, the shape therefore would also vary slightly. The pic in Elgood shows definate resemblance to the axes Gene has.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I can see the possibility of Eastern European, but I'm struggling to see them as mere 'utility' axes.
My reasoning:
The shape of the cutting edge and narrowness of the blade doesn't make for good kindling splitting.
The smaller of the two doesn't even have a cutting edge thats parallel to the shaft (see pic below)
Despite the simplicity of the punched decoration, these are quite an elaborate piece of metalworking, far more than I would expect from a ulitity piece.

I don't know, perhaps I just hope that you are wrong on that and they are 'battle axes'.

Best
Gene
Salaams, I thought I would start with a solid reference on Maces, axes and staff weapons therefor I refer you to Islamic Arms by Anthony North; page 40 - 45.

With reference to herders weapons only today I saw on the BBC an African herder in Sudan sitting astride his donkey with his cattle herd. He was holding an axe. The Mussandam axe carrried by Shihuh is a herder weapon useful as a walking stick or against snakes... and used in the human defence it is lethal in the strike to head or other targets. There is a bigger version which will have been the big brother for serious fighting.
The weapon appears to be originally a Persian early weapon from the Luristan area. The Shihuh are a fascinating tribe with no written language indeed they seem to be one of the lost tribal groupings though said to have Persian roots. Their language is unrelated to Arabic yet they are settled in the Mussandam region at the gateway to the Gulf astride Oman and the UAE. Tribal tectonic plate movement is a hugely complex issue and it is outside my scope to suppose a link with Indian, Hungarian or other European tributaries of tribal drift and axe usage or influence except to state that "as a crucible of civilisation Persian Luristan several thousand years ago may have had a hand in it all" ! :shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

PS PHOTO ...SHIHUH WITH AXE

[Atlantia]

Salaams, I thought I would start with a solid reference on Maces, axes and staff weapons therefor I refer you to Islamic Arms by Anthony North; page 40 - 45.

With reference to herders weapons only today I saw on the BBC an African herder in Sudan sitting astride his donkey with his cattle herd. He was holding an axe. The Mussandam axe carrried by Shihuh is a herder weapon useful as a walking stick or against snakes... and used in the human defence it is lethal in the strike to head or other targets. There is a bigger version which will have been the big brother for serious fighting.
The weapon appears to be originally a Persian early weapon from the Luristan area. The Shihuh are a fascinating tribe with no written language indeed they seem to be one of the lost tribal groupings though said to have Persian roots. Their language is unrelated to Arabic yet they are settled in the Mussandam region at the gateway to the Gulf astride Oman and the UAE. Tribal tectonic plate movement is a hugely complex issue and it is outside my scope to suppose a link with Indian, Hungarian or other European tributaries of tribal drift and axe usage or influence except to state that "as a crucible of civilisation Persian Luristan several thousand years ago may have had a hand in it all" ! :shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

PS PHOTO ...SHIHUH WITH AXE


Namaste Ibrahiim ;)

I actually do have that book... somewhere..... in a box...... I think...... The V&A one right?
Does it have anything VERY close to mine? If it does, I'll go and search.

The axe in the picture with the seated chap holding it is suprisingly small. You say that they come in different sizes?
It would be interesting to ask a Shihuh user of these axes if they recognise mine!
I don't suppose that you know the gentleman in your picture and could put it to him?


I've found a picture of what appears to be an old Mussandam axe. But I can't find any pictures of the crescent headed Hadhramaut axe that Stuart referenced from Elgood (beyond the one in the aforementioned book).

The evolution of the axe is of course a story far older than recorded history.
When attempting to research my two crescent axes, the amount of references to Sagaris and pictures of ancient painted vases depicting Scythian warriors carrying them did make me smile.
But of course we are not looking so far back (even though I've added some pics of these axes below for fun).
In the great scheme of things, crescent shaped axes are widespread, but a minority.
The shape of the axes in your pictures is perhaps more familiar. The 'usual' shape for many recognised mutipurpose axes, like shepherds axes, tomahawks, even many weaponised axe forms, including european, Indian and Persian.
So I think we need to concentrate on the crescent shaped forms that are a 'match' for mine.


Do you have any further information, references or pictures relating to the Arabic Hadhramaut axe that Stu mentioned above?

Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

I'm not sure if this will help, but I've fashioned a shaft for one of the axes to show it in a more fitting style.
I've used old ash, but I don't like the feel of it. Too light!
Can anyone recommend a source for a more fitting wood to use?

[kahnjar1]

Thanks Gene for reminding us of the ORIGINAL question, which was identification of your crescent shaped axes. The items refered to by Ibrahiim are clearly not of that shape, and if I am correct are called JERZ. The axe that I refered to in Elgoods book is nothing like these, and I attach a pic of the page from his book Arms and Armour of Arabia for clarification. Hopefully the text can also be read.

NOTE TO MODERATORS: If in your opinion the attachment breaches copyright, please delete it. I believe that if original reference is quoted then things are OK?

[Atlantia]

Excellent detective work Stu.

As you say, the traditional form of Jerz axes is very different from my axes.
The Hadhramaut axe pictured shows definate similarites. It would be interesting to see if we could find other examples to clarify if they all have the asymetric downward curve.
These are indeed an interesting type. I don't think I've ever come across an axe that has both the full crescent blade and the downward curve.

This has turned into a very interesting and enlightening, if somewhat frustrating search for me! And from the amount of views, I suspect that others are interested too, so come on you lurkers!! ;)

Best
Gene

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Excellent detective work Stu.

As you say, the traditional form of Jerz axes is very different from my axes.
The Hadhramaut axe pictured shows definate similarites. It would be interesting to see if we could find other examples to clarify if they all have the asymetric downward curve.
These are indeed an interesting type. I don't think I've ever come across an axe that has both the full crescent blade and the downward curve.

This has turned into a very interesting and enlightening, if somewhat frustrating search for me! And from the amount of views, I suspect that others are interested too, so come on you lurkers!! ;)

Best
Gene
Salaams, Point on axe shape absolutely understood. It is fascinating that an axe shape in the hadramaut is so similar to one from somewhere in India. By the way I see on the footnotes of Stu .. The reference from Elgood refers to the Al Ain Museum and Dr Waleed (al ain museum Curator) excavation of exes in the eastern UAE region~ I can see the al ain Museum from my office (almost) so I shall find out if these axes are from the Shihuh. It sounds like they are from that area at least.

[Atlantia]

Any further thoughts gentlemen?

[Atlantia]

So, finally found the right dark mahogany-esq (some exotic hardwood) timber with straight enough grain to make new handles.

Here are pictures of the initial results of the first finished handle. Some polishing still needed.
Handle length about 25 1/2", overall 28".
Style is Indian, following the examples shown on Runjeets excellent site. I have used these as I am still of the opinion that Indian is the most likey origin.
It swings well and feels great at this length.

One down, one to go.

[kahnjar1]

So, finally found the right dark mahogany-esq (some exotic hardwood) timber with straight enough grain to make new handles.

Here are pictures of the initial results of the first finished handle. Some polishing still needed.
Handle length about 25 1/2", overall 28".
Style is Indian, following the examples shown on Runjeets excellent site. I have used these as I am still of the opinion that Indian is the most likey origin.
It swings well and feels great at this length.

One down, one to go.
NICE JOB GENE

[Atlantia]

NICE JOB GENE

Thanks mate :)
Makes a lot of difference having good wood to work with. The Ash was horribly soft, even though it was old.

[Atlantia]

OK, so here are the two re-hafted. Look and feel great, need some handling and waxing, but I'm pleased with the results.

[kronckew]

not sure how i missed this thread, musta been while i was moving...

the eastern european area around romania/hungary/southern poland saw a small axe known as the fokos or ciupaga, used as protection against wolves. two and four legged. originally in steel, they were later outlawed if steel, so were then made in brass or bronze. they were of walking stick length and normally had an alpine point on the end. the shafts were carved artistically and painted. these were alluded to in the 'shepard's axe' reference posted earlier by atlantia (post 37).

these are my two: the silvery one is plated brass.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/axe2.jpg
(axe 1)

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/axe1.jpg
(axe 2)

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Fokos/fokos001_DCE.jpg
(axe 3)

this one has an engraved sheet brass guard attached over the sharpened edge.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Fokos/fokos003_DCE.jpg
(axe 4)

even the brass ones were eventually out of fashion, and they were then supplied carved and painted entirely out of wood (see the shepard's axe ref), but in the same 'axe' shape. there has been a revival of steel fokos being made in hungary, tho i'm not sure how legal they are there.

http://www.berbekuczviktor.hu/bardok_elemei/nagy/bard06.jpg
(axe 5) modern steel fokos, viktor berbekucz

for our arab friend, ibrahim, (salaam aliakum) here is my small arabian axe:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/tabar/aec71209.jpg
(axe 6)

i've always been amazed at how small the axe head is. it's razor sharp by the way... and thanks for the additional information, ibrahim.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/tabar/e7ae3e6e.jpg
(axe 7)

photo archive attached 'justincase'

[Atlantia]

not sure how i missed this thread, musta been while i was moving...

the eastern european area around romania/hungary/southern poland saw a small axe known as the fokos or ciupaga, used as protection against wolves. two and four legged. originally in steel, they were later outlawed if steel, so were then made in brass or bronze. they were of walking stick length and normally had an alpine point on the end. the shafts were carved artistically and painted. these were alluded to in the 'shepard's axe' reference posted earlier by atlantia (post 37).

these are my two: the silvery one is plated brass.


this one has an engraved sheet brass guard attached over the sharpened edge.

out of fashion, and they were then supplied carved and painted entirely out of wood (see the shepard's axe ref), but in the same 'axe' shape. there has been a revival of steel fokos being made in hungary, tho i'm not sure how legal they are there.


for our arab friend, ibrahim, (salaam aliakum) here is my small arabian axe:



i've always been amazed at how small the axe head is. it's razor sharp by the way... and thanks for the additional information, ibrahim.




I see the modern 'walking axes' occasionally, but as you rightly say, most are just carved axes shaped wood now. The arabian axe is an unusual find :)
The debate on my pair contines off-line, a recent popular conclusion is Ottoman Turkish.
:shrug:
Best
Gene

[David R]

Have you considered that these axes might be Turcoman. I have found in the past that a weapon that defied identification, was eventually found to be most likely from that Central Asian people. Their location made them prone to influences from a wide number of places, India, Iran Russia and even China, and as infamous slavers they got everywhere.