Knife with interesting markings - Ebay

[Ferguson]

Ended this morning. I lost out, hopefully to one of my friends here.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=220761724057&si=qKtb5kFBi2%252FFSSojgy7jzlO%252F8pA%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDWX%3AIT

What do you think? Interesting looking knife.
Steve

[David]

Well doesn't that triangle with the sun mark this one as Katipunan?

[Dimasalang]

Wow! Very nice. Wish you won this one. Excellent sunface on the blade and scabbard. Not to many you see of these.

[Rick]

Katipunan symbols .
Is it of the era though ??
Hmmmmm .

I'm more curious about the trumpets with a 3 .
The three stars in the sun triangle ?

[Robert]

The sun and triangle symbol was a common enough even being used on stamps, see picture below. Like Rick I'm interested in the trumpet emblem with the 3 in it. As of yet I have not been able to find any information on this particular emblem but I'm still looking. I have been told though that it is not Filipino in origin.

Robert

[Rick]

Not 3rd Infantry .
They were formed in 1917 . :shrug:

[Battara]

I saw this and (besides the lack of bling) the badge threw me off. I wonder if this is a composite piece, as in the badge was added later by a GI or even later.

[Ferguson]

Good discussion! The badge could have been added by anyone, at any time. The 3rd U.S. Cavalry served in the Philippine American War, but I have no idea what their insignia was. Badge aside, could the bolo have come from the early 1900s?
Steve

[David]

The 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment was formed in 1846 and probably did serve in the Philippines, though the Wiki article on them has a hole in it for that period. You will notice though that their insignia does indeed include a trumpet and the number 3.
They were nicknamed "The Brave Rifles" and their motto is "Blood and Steel".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3d_Armored_Cavalry_Regiment_(United_States)

[David]

This is their current insignia, but i am certain that the design would have been different back then, though it still probably maintained the same elements like the bugle.

[David]

Also the symbol on the reverse side from the triangle and sun looks like a cavalry flag, does it not?

[Battara]

The sun and triangle symbol was a common enough even being used on stamps, see picture below.
Now on the subject of the triangle, this stamp shows the emblem of the 1st PI Republic. I think the blade is authentic, but the rest altered?

[Rick]

Also the symbol on the reverse side from the triangle and sun looks like a cavalry flag, does it not?

Very much like a Guidon, David . :)
The trumpet insignia on the scabbard looks old fashioned; perhaps a holdover from the Civil War ?

[David]

Now on the subject of the triangle, this stamp shows the emblem of the 1st PI Republic. I think the blade is authentic, but the rest altered?
Probably not fair to say that the rest is not "authentic". It looks to me (and of course with not real provenance who is to say for sure) that this is a PI blade that fell into the hands of a 3rd cavalry soldier who then made it his own with the additions. Maybe it was a battle score. Maybe it was a gift or trade. Maybe he just bought it as a remembrance of the time, but i still read that as a very "authentic" piece of history. :)

[Ferguson]

A little more research reveals that the "looped horn" or bugle is the symbol for a "Field Musician" (bugler). The 3 could mean 3rd U.S. Infantry, Artillery, or Cavalry. All served in the Philippine American war. :shrug: I haven't found a definitive example of the insignia yet.

Steve

[Spunjer]

There's a sun face/triangle on the scabbard as well, so yeah, i'm pretty sure everything is original with the piece. Also remember, the bugle/No. 3 combo could represent a spanish unit..

[Battara]

David, I don't disagree that this is a battlefield pick up. What I meant was that the badge was later added altering the piece. It is a Civil War form of badge that was used in later wars, like the PI/American War.

I apologize for any confusion.

[Dimasalang]

Agree with Ron. The Bugler badge could of been from a Spanish unit. Possibly captured from a Spanish unit during the 1st or 2nd phase of the 1896 Revolution. Also, many Spanish soldiers stayed in the Philippines after the revolution and switched sides to fight under Aguinaldos military against the Americans.
And if the bugler emblem can be traced back to be American, it could of been captured from an American unit as well. Obviously, many soldiers on all sides were capturing and saving military artifacts from one another.

I would like to think the emblem was captured from the enemy and used as the owners "anting anting". Well, at least that is the story I would tell people. :D

[Rick]

For me the engraved Guidon raises questions; sadly it lacks a number .

Are these not traditionally cavalry flags ? :shrug:

[David]

Are these not traditionally cavalry flags ? :shrug:
Yes, i believe they are...
http://www.google.com/search?q=cavalry+flag&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=AimdTYn2JMmcgQf0gc2KBw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CCoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1431&bih=692

[Robert]

I have searched the net for hours now trying to find any information on the insignia that is attached to the scabbard of this very interesting bolo and all that I have found is that it does not match any that I can find, American or Spanish. Here are a few pictures that show a Spanish button and the insignias used by the U.S. during the Civil War and the Indian Wars as well as the one used during the Spanish American war. They all show a single horn or crossed rifles not the double horns shown on the scabbard above. If anyone has any information showing the insignia on the above scabbard and when it was used and who it was used by please post it as this is driving me nutz.:o :confused: :(

Robert

[Dimasalang]

I believe we found a match. :)

Insignia of Spanish Light Infantry unit during the same era as the 1896 Revolution and the Span-Am War.

http://www.agmohio.com/images_LR/LR6240601cwc.jpg
http://www.agmohio.com/images_LR/LR12180601a.jpg
http://www.agmohio.com/images_LR/LR12190601a.jpg

Complements of William Combs website.
http://www.agmohio.com/LRuniformshome.htm

[Spunjer]

;)
I forgot about bill combs....

[Ferguson]

Good job Dimasalang!
Steve

[Rick]

All right then ........... great find !
This begs the question .

Who captured what here ? :confused:

[carlos]

Interisting knife :D , Fortunatelly I was the winner of the auction ( I,m sorry Steve ). When I saw the knife thought inmediatelly in the symbols of the blade, the hilt ( maybe from a bayonet or a saber ) and the sheath with the 3 ( I had sawn some shields similarsin a uniforms ).
When I received I put more pictures.
Thanks all for the comments
best regards
carlos

[Ferguson]

Congratulations Carlos! That's wonderful. Glad you got it. :)

Let us know how you like it, and what you think of it.

Steve

[Rick]

We hate speculation, but I still wonder,

Is this a Philippine piece with captured insignia; or is it a Spanish captured piece remarked with Guidon and unit emblem ?

Obviously the knife is Katipunan; but whose hands did it finally wind up in ?
I'm guessing Spanish along with David .

Is the sheath original to the piece?
There is an interesting lug at the pommel end; almost as if it was made for a sheath with a pommel strap . :shrug:

[Robert]

Carlos, My congratulations for your acquiring this VERY interesting piece for your collection.!!! If I had more money to spend you would not have gotten off so cheap. :D Just kidding, I am very happy for you on being able to obtain this unique item. Myself I do not think the hilt was from another weapon but was purposely made for this knife.
Rick, It is hard to say which way this went. As Dimasalang has suggested the insignia could have been captured from the Spanish and then used as a personnel "anting anting" or the other way around with the knife being captured by the Spanish and then personalized by who ever was in possession of it at that point in time. As for the lug at the end of the pommel that is a common trait for knives from Luzon and I do believe that this sheath is original to the knife.
Dimasalang, Thank you so much for identifying this insignia (it was driving me nutz) as being Spanish in origin. The closest I could find was the button that I posted above but not the badge itself.

Robert

[carlos]

Is possible that hilt was made with a pistol gun hilt? some similar like this...
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/01-trubia-1.pdf
best regards
carlos

[Robert]

Hello Carlos, I believe by looking at the pictures that Steve posted of the bolo that the hilt is one solid piece. The revolver you show has slab grips, two separate pieces with the frame in between. I don't think I have ever seen a hand gun or with a solid hilt like this one before but there are millions of things I haven't seen yet.:D I'm hoping that when this arrives you will find the hilt is made of buffalo horn.
Again my congratulation.

Robert