A cup hilt sword for coments.

[fernando]

According to seller this is a Spanish colonial specimen ... and i have no reason to doubt it.
Made of silver are the two ferules, the quillons and knuckle guard ends, the grip longitudinal bars, the grip nails and the two cup decoration buttons.
There are vestigial signs on the blade of the classic inscription NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON ...
Wide and short ray skin covered grip, probably to lodge two fingers in the brass decorated ricasso.
On its way to my sweet home, arriving next week.
I expect the local friendly silver smith to replicate the missing grip nails.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Ok Nando! You know I cant resist Spanish Colonial, and cuphilts get me weak in the knees :) This example is really amazing, and I have never seen shagreen on anything Spanish Colonial. I feel compelled to add some observations so I must apologize in advance and hope it will not stall the thread.

This is as you have already noted, the strictly business type of cuphilt used on the frontiers of New Spain in the latter 18th century and actually probably well into the 19th. The Peninsular gentry of these regions still retained thier tradition and deep pride in thier noble heritage, and maintained thier fascination with fashions and weapons often considered obsolete elsewhere.
These heavy versions of the cuphilt were more 'arming swords' of course than rapiers, and carried double edged blades usually of hexagonal cross section which are believed to have been produced in Solingen for export to Spains New World colonies.
While it has been well established that the so called 'Spanish motto' noted on this blade, has been around far earlier than the period of these blades, c.1770s, it was indeed popularized largely by the volume of these blades that exist.

Getting to the intriguing grip on this, while it appears to be 'rayskin' which refers to the pearled rayfish, as used and well known on Oriental weapons, and even similar to Tatar swords of the 17th century (termed 'czeczuga' =small sturgeon, Ostrowski, 1979, p.232).....this may be something different.

Apparantly this fashionable covering was popularized in Europe by a master leatherworker in the court of Louis XV named Jean-Claude Galluchat (d.1774). It is noted that while possibly actual shagreen may have been used in cases, it was sometimes imitated by placing embedding seeds over untreated horse skin and covering with soft cloth, then applying pressure. The skin was then dyed from the reverse, often with green dye. This style became extremely popular with French aristocracy in the latter part of the 18th century.

I am wondering if perhaps this sword, the type known widely popular in Spains colonies in Florida and Cuba as well as South America, might have been mounted accordingly using this fashionable material. Obviously there was considerable contact between French and Spanish trade in the Gulf as well as throughout these regions in these times, so this may account for this extremely rare combination in this example.

Attached box covered in 'Galuchat', the term used for this style.

Beautiful piece Nando!!!

Best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

At last you show up, man :shrug: .
But i am learning the trick; everytime i wish you to come around, i post a cup hilt sword :eek:
Thank you so much for the treatise.
However you know how irreverent i am, daring to (try and) oppose some of your brilliant reasoning, even if it is only for sports sake ;) .
But let me first receive the sword and have a good look at it, to come back here with my humble position on the grip covering material ... among other things.
Keep well, Jim cow boy :cool: .

[Jim McDougall]

Ok ya rascal!!! You do absolutely know my weaknesses and a cuphilt will always drag me out of retirement!!!!:)
Not irreverant Nando, and I always look forward to opposition with the ideas and observations I throw out there,thats why I do it even if not totally sure of whether right or wrong, its how I learn...actually its how we all learn.
Thats why discussions are so important !

When you examine the sword we can have a better view of what the material is, and I know that it is quite likely that this might not be this galuchat material...it may indeed be actual shagreen. There was a great deal of interest in the Orient in the 18th century, and perhaps this rayskin could have been obtained in trade. I wanted to be sure that all options were out there pending your close examination. Whatever the case, this is an absolutely magnificent piece, and another important milestone in the study of these Spanish Colonial items. Nicely done!! and thank you my friend,

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

I'm right there with you, Jim and 'Nando, on these magnificent swords. Sorry to be a late-comer, have been away for a bit. What a beautiful cup-hilt! I'm always amazed at how you find these pieces, my friend. I would kill to have one (well, maybe just maim- :cool: ). I've never seen this form of grip material or patterning before on one of these. Jim, I've never heard of this practice of making fake shagreen. Fascinating process, but I wonder why they make it so complicated? Rayskin seemed common enough on other Euro pieces of the times. In any case, I'm glad you spoke of it, as I'll file the info away for future reference.
The "nails" in the grip seem very interesting to me and seem to have an oriental look to me. As Jim pointed out, I know that there was a great interest of such things during this time period. Even the flat pommel strikes me as different from the typical cup-hilt. In any case, what a fine sword!
Soooo, now we know the trick to elicit a response from Jim. Start off with a pic of a nice cup-hilt before segueing to another subject! So, it will be like 'thanks for responding, Jim. Now, your opinion on narwhale tusks used on Claimore hilts!' :D

[Jim McDougall]

Yay, Capt. Mark!!! Thank you for coming in, I thought I had as usual, sent this thread to Davey Jones locker. So I see you note that you and Nando have my mark, and draw me out of the shadows with a pretty cuphilt :)
For you, the mention of nautical or Spanish Colonial will bring you in....now if we could figure as much for the hoardes lurking out there, and what it will take to get them onboard.

What!!! narwhal tusks on claymore hilts!!! ????? Auugghhhh! off again, hoist the mainsail!!!

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi Cap'n Mark,
Thanks for coming aboard ... better late than ever ;) .

I see that the trick to bring you around is coming here to ask people their opinion on narwhale tusks used on Claimore hilts! :eek: .

Concerning how i find these pieces ... well, at specialized shops and websites; so they are not cheap at all. Each one of them costs more than a full load of powder kegs ;) .

The grip silver nails; what i find more amazing in them, is that practicaly each one of them has a different shape.
I am thinking of asking my jewelry shop owner friend to have his smith to replicate (at least some of) the missing units.

Now Jim, are these pictures good enough to figure out what the grip cover material is? I confess i am amazed at the 'asterisk' shape of the worn 'bulbs'; would this be normal in ray skin ?

I wonder, as i find it admitable, that this hilt attitude was a later embelishment to this sword but, full of silver details as it is, it certainly belonged to an owner with a position higher that the common rank and file ... don't you guys agree?

Concerning this sword's age, can't you 'make it' a bit earlier ... to come close to seller's assumption: circa 1700?

Ah, something i almost forgot to mention; atypically, the inscription on the blade, instead of having engraved half of the sentence in each face, has the full phrase in both sides, in a double row manner.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Nando,
This is the beauty of discussion, and why it means so much, at least to me, to have questions asked regarding text in my posts. I learn by researching and posting what I have learned, and in many instances my wording can be unclear. Also, often I may make comment without rechecking original sources, which in this case, applies to the hilt style on this cuphilt.

I rechecked " Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821" (Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain, 1972) where one of these 'colonial' cuphilts appears (p.73, plate 130) and is indeed shown as c.1700. In the example shown, which was owned by Harold Peterson, the knucklebow is squared rather than curved, and there are minimal differences in the quillon terminals and pommel collar. These variations are so slight that they should be deemed inconsequential, and as with most colonial weapons, the 1700 date somewhat arbitrary.

Going to the grip material, I should clarify that the term 'shagreen' was originally used for rough untanned rawhide or leather often from a horses back. By the late 17th century and into the 18th the term had become applied to the use of sharkskin or rayskin, as had become known from Oriental weapons. While sharkskin is noted along with the rayskin, they are actually noticeably different and our focus is on the rayskin (probably the pearled ray, Hypolophus Sepheri) which has calcified papillae (look like pearls or domed pustules).

In rereading material, it seems that there was an earlier practice of creating faux rayskin by embedding plant seeds in the untreated horsehide while soft and trampling upon it, creating the papillaed effect. Presumably by 'earlier' this would suggest the end of the 17th century. By latter in the 18th century the use of rayskin and dying it from the back in green dye was popularized by Galuchat as previously noted.

The 'starburst' effect on these 'pearled' features on this grip, suggest that they have had force, such as crushing, effected upon them. The absence of the domes in some places suggest that possibly, if these were created by seeds, many had fallen away during the process. Since as mentioned, this process was an 'earlier' one, this may support the late 17th c. early 18th date we are seeking.

Also, regarding the 'Spanish motto' NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON
NO ME ENVAYNES SIN HONOR
or its variations, this one listed in the Wallace Collection A641, and describing the blade as German late 17th-early 18th century. The author, Sir James Mann (1962) notes further in text that this motto occurs on blades c,1770 traded by P.Knecht in Solingen. This was a blade trading family, not makers, and presumably these were the 'dragoon' type blades I had noted earlier, and as described in Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain (op. cit.).

Since the blade is triangularly elongated, though also broadsword, it conforms more to earlier type blades, again supporting the earlier c.1700 date. It is my impression as well from the references in Wallace Collection, that the motto doublet appears in full with both lines on the blade face, rather than each line on opposite sides on the c.1770 dragoon blades.

I think these views will better support the earlier date and nature of this cuphilt which I consider a magnificent example of these outstanding and rugged examples of Spanish cuphilt from the New Spain frontiers.

Mark, as for the use of narwhal on the baskethilts, I would at this point consider such examples to be anomalies, but certainly well placed and desirable. Since this highly storied material was well known through the North Atlantic, especially with the Norse, I cannot see why it would not have been used for extremely high end examples of Scottish sword. The accompanying lore and myth associating these of course was maintained with that of the unicorn until very late times, which by that time had become more tradition than literal acceptance of myth. I'd really like to see examples of these Scottish swords with such hilts though!!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Carl M]

That is a beautiful sword! Where did you find it?

It seems to be a gray area between bilbo and rapier. The blade has a sharp taper, yet it is very broad. Speaking of bilbos, I just posted a thread that hasn't appeared yet on a bilbo I recently purchased at auction. I think it is a regimental pattern.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/yelunatic/Bilbo2-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/yelunatic/Bilbo1-2.jpg

[M ELEY]

Ahhh, the narwhale worked as planned! Actually, I really didn't intend to steer attention away from this great sword. Last comment on the claimore, though. There was a great example with apparent age in an old Man-at-Arms magazine from the 90's. Impressive piece.

Now, back to this rapier. I am amazed once again with seeing details of the nails in the hilt. Truly, their design reminds me of Japanese menuki and someone went to a lot of trouble artistically to create them. They are just beautiful and their shapes appear to represent objects, at least symbolicly, just as Japanese sword furniture would have (I used to have an old wak with fuchi/menuki showing koi eating salmon roe, lily pads, cherry blossoms, etc, with gold relief. I miss them sometimes-sigh). Fernando, I agree with you that if you wish to replace them, you may want to inlist the work of a jeweler. An incredible sword. Now that you have this one, you can just send me one of your other plainer types ( :D )

[Jim McDougall]

Yes Capt. Mark, the narwhal 'red herring' :) and it would seem the Scots would naturally have had an affinity for this horn as thier national arms are supported heraldically by flanking unicorns :)

Carl, Im really glad you posted your bilbo here! It is really a great example, and good to see these Spanish Colonial weapons becoming so well represented here. These were of course military swords, but not really a particular regimental pattern. The dates that are applied to these swords such as '1728' were simply dates referring to regulamentos (if I recall correctly) of the years 1728 and 1768 where military inspections were emplaced to record the state of units and presidios at the time. Swords with these traditionally styled hilts were in use widely and over extremely long periods of time, especially on the frontiers.

Your blade is well placed here as it corresponds nicely to Fernando's cuphilt and is also of the somewhat triangularly elongated form, yet with the typical hexagonal cross section of the later dragoon blades.

The initials N M N on the blade are not for a maker but actually would probably be an acronym for a religious invocation such as those seen on much earlier sword blades, again a tradition long held and carried forward from such sacredotal inscriptions. Examples known from earlier are i.e. N E M, = Nomen Eternis Nomen and N O M , =Nomen Omnipotentis Nomen.

While cuphilts such as Fernando's were apparantly a favored horsemans weapon, the bilbos seem to have been often associated with infantry officers of line regiments in most cases I have seen. There seem to be a number of examples from Cuba and units in the Spanish holdings in Florida and Louisiana.

The differences between rapier and bilbo as seen here are in my view purely semantical, as these are both actually 'arming swords' which reflect earlier styles of rapier in tradional forms.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Thanks a lot for your input, Gentlemen.
Jim, i am much obliged for you having focused my (and others) eyes into the (micro) composition of genuine shagreen on the grip cover of this sword.
It is indeed amazing that one thinks that the (re)source of 'prepared' shagreen appeared after actual ray (+shark) skin, whereas this method appeared afterwards.
On the other hand, while ray skin was used mainly for anti slippery purposes, original shagreen was also used for embelishment purposes, such as box and other object outer shells and also, and not less popular, for book bidings. I have read in the web a PDF article where shagreen binding was seen in 1734 in a Portuguese miniature almanach.
I have also gone into the ethimo/semantic area, learning that shagreen apparently comes from the Turc 'çagri' and refers to the horse croup, from where raw hide was originaly used for the preparation of the discussed material.
The translated term in portuguese is 'chagrem', althoug the galicism 'chagrin' is much more widely used.
Giving wings to imagination, would one find any connection between ray skin having been widely used in Japanese sword grips and the silver details of this sword reminding menuki decorations, as suggested by Mark? I will give a thought to that.
Thinking about replicating the missing silver nails, its shape diversity is so exquisite, that i hesitate before going into such adventure. I will have to see how the smith himself reacts.

[fernando]

For those with interest in more technical data ... like Chris Evans: ;)
Blade length: 82 cms.
Blade thickness at forte: 6 mm.
Blade with at forte: 34 mm.
Quillons extension: 28,5 cms.
Cup width: 13 cms.
Total length:97 cms.
Ponit of balance (from quillons): 12 cms.
Weight: 912 grs.

[Chris Evans]

For those with interest in more technical data ... like Chris Evans: ;)
Ponit of balance (from quillons): 12 cms.


Much appreciated Fernando.

Just to make sure, the POB is from the quillons and not the where the cup meets the blade?

As I said in my PM, I am very, very envious.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Much appreciated Fernando.

Just to make sure, the POB is from the quillons and not the where the cup meets the blade?

As I said in my PM, I am very, very envious.

Cheers
Chris

Yes Chris, from the quillons ... as adviced ;) .
Thanks much for your interest ... and envy :D .

[Chris Evans]

Yes Chris, from the quillons ... as adviced ;) .
Thanks much for your interest ... and envy :D .

Enjoy! :shrug:

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Now, this is what i could call a rather reasonable reconstitution of the silver rivets on the right side of the grip.
Mind you, i didn't tell the silversmith what shape the new rivets should have; i confess i wouldn't know myself.
I decided to leave it to his imagination and the result is not so bad, i would say. So far i don't regret it.

.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Handsomely and imaginatively done Nando!!!! It would seem this artisan picked up nicely on the extant geometric embellishments remaining and did a superb job of following suit.
Thank you for sharing this! You know my weakness for these!! :)

All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

An interesting faux ray display. The Japanese would sometimes do this with polished bone bits, at times even with copper sheet as the substrate. I have never gotten a clear explanation as to what the Japanese term would be for such a process.

Cheers

GC

[M ELEY]

Fernando, I sent you a PM. Again, remember me in your will! Actually, I hope you live a very long time, my friend and continue to post amazing pieces such as this. Still green with envy...

[Jim McDougall]

Captain Mark, you guys OK over there in N.C.? Unbelievable that many tornados in one day!! Everything here in Texas is on fire, but we seem to be in one place in the middle away from the rest.

Didnt mean to sidetrack....this truly is a beauty of a sword, and Fernando's collection is undisputedly world class!!!

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Hello Jim,
Sorry, was away from the forum for awhile. We were lucky that the tornados didn't touch down in our area, but many were seen in surrounding counties. We did lose power for awhile, but out of respect to those that recieved the worst of the storms, I won't complain. I've seen the news on that spreading conflagration (!) in Texas, too big to call it anything else. I do hope you, your family and the Book Mobile ( :D ) is far away from any of the trouble spots. Thank you for asking.

Please continue with the discussion on this fantastic sword...

[dana_w]

This Spanish Colonial cup hilt has a grip very similar to the one posted by fernando. Maybe these photos might be useful here for comparison.

[fernando]

Dana, i have no words !
Definitely this grip and mine were made by the same workshop ... or even the same smith; not to say both swords came out from the same origin.
Can you advance some further info on this example ... a link, a description, anything ?
Tha would be rather interesting, not to say vital, for my sword record.

[dana_w]

Dana, i have no words !
Definitely this grip and mine were made by the same workshop ... or even the same smith; not to say both swords came out from the same origin.
Can you advance some further info on this example ... a link, a description, anything ?
Tha would be rather interesting, not to say vital, for my sword record.

Hi fernando, I just knew that you'd want too see this cup hilt. I can't tell you much about it with any certainty. There are two contradictory stories and I have not been able to verify either of them. I know that it was purchased by father over ten years ago in St. Augustine Florida.

One story has it belonging to Georges Biassou, a slave who became a leader of the 1791 Haïtian Revolution. He fought with Spanish royalists against the French Revolutionary authorities in colonial Haïti. In 1795 Biassou moved to St. Augustine.

Another person has told me that they once owned the sword, and that it was purchased at a European auction house in the 90s.

I am working on the photos today. If you'd like I can post more images here when I am done along with the measurements. Maybe you and Jim can help me with the description...?

[fernando]

Thank you Dana.
I bet Jim will enjoy dissecting your sword historic provenance possibilities.
Mine was bought in a Spanish antique weapons site. But you know, this is a small world and things (swords) jump from one place to another with amazing facility.
I will be expecting further pictures and measurements of your piece.

[dana_w]

Here are the measurements, they are all approximate.

Blade length: 32 inches || 81.28 cm
Blade thickness at forte: 3/16 inches || .476 cm
Blade with at forte: 1 3/8 inches || 3.492 cm
Quillons extension: 3 1/8 inches || 7.937 cm
Cup width: 5 3/8 inches || 13.652 cm
Total length: 38 1/2 inches || 97.79 cm
Ponit of balance: about an inch from the bottom of the cup
Weight: 3 lb, 2 1/4 oz || 1.424 kg4

The cup seem to be made of iron with silver decorations.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for posting this Dana!!! It is really exciting to see another of these, and I also look forward to further details when you receive this.
As you know Fernando and I are obsessive on cuphilts :) and Cap'n Mark will be coming in as well I'm sure as soon as he gets back into port.

What is great is to see another of these curious grip types, and I will begin excavations here in the bookmobile to relocate notes etc. Here these kinds of anomalies and arms mysteries the case files are never closed...just pending.....and it really works when enthusiasts like yourself bring forth new examples and evidence. I cannot thank you enough!!!

All the very best,
Jim

[dana_w]

Here is one more photo. You can see how the silver is wrapped over the lip of the cup, and where some of it is missing on the left side of the photo.

[fernando]

Beautiful sword indeed, Dana
I am surprised with one detail ... which links to another.
Its weight is rather significant; 55% heavier than mine. Which is quite impressive, given that the overall dimensions of both are equivalent. Even your blade doesn't appear to be thicker than mine, although of a different profile. On the other hand the point of balance of yours is rather close from the guard; mine is almost 3 1/2" from the cup bottom.
We then may conclude that the cup of your sword is 'extremely' heavy, right ?
Maybe due to the bowl being made with (much) thicker iron plate, together with the weight of the multiple adornments ?
Can you check the blade ricasso inside the bowl and see if it is adorned ...something like mine, which has a brass decorated 'ferrule' ? This could indicate further familiarity in the smith style, due to being an uncommon procedure.


.

[dana_w]

You are right Fernando, the cup of this sword is 'extremely' heavy when compared to others in my collection. It is due to the thicker iron plate.

The ricasso inside the bowl is unadorned. It looks like a piece of iron split at the base to accept the actual sword blade. I will lighten one of the images so you can see it better. It is not pretty.

[Jim McDougall]

In retracing material on Fernando's sword and this exciting newly added example, I agree that the compelling similarity in style and execution of decorative motif suggests these were likely from the same workshop or location. The information suggesting the associations to the Haitian Rebellion 1791-1804 truly brings remarkable plausibility to the unique nature of these swords which seem clearly outside the typical Spanish colonial versions of the well known Spanish cuphilt.

As indicated in my research from 2011, this curious rayskin like grip material appears it may follow the Galluchat method of imitation rayskin. This being of course a French oriented process, apparently popularized in the latter 18th century, it seems likely that artisans familiar with this may well have been present in these French colonial regions.

These two examples, while crudely executed ,display the unique charm of these colonial weapons which reflect fascinating historical perspective. It seems that these are essentially 'blacksmith' grade work, but again reflecting considerable skill, and attention to details imitating the motif and forms of the period.
In your example Dana, the crudely fashioned (thus very heavy) bowl is embellished on the outside with interestingly applied fretwork, which seems intended to approximate the beautifully pierced bowls of Brescian cuphilts used by Spanish nobility of the 17th into 18th century. The scallop shell is of course well known in Spanish motif and here in rococo setting as with the smallswords of French 18th century.

It would seem that these rather ersatz appearing, roughly fabricated swords were quite likely fashioned for individuals involved in these events unfolding in Haitian regions around 1791 and probably meant for officers or those in leadership roles. While the direct association to Georges Biassou is of course interesting, though tenuous, it does seem that these two cuphilts might have been fashioned for individuals of standing in these events.

As to provenance, it does seem quite probable that the St. Augustine attribution would be likely, and Florida itself provided an outstanding source for many years for these kinds of amazingly historical arms. I well remember the Hoffman's and Norm Flayderman from the 1960s and 70s who were the primary purveyors of the times, and their catalogs still stand as key references and sources for wistful memories of those times !

I would consider that these two examples were probably fashioned by artisan (s) in Haitian regions who were probably slaves, or associated, and had acquired skills exposed to French tutelage. These swords were probably fashioned in accord with Spanish colonial influences, and around 1790-91 as discussed. It may even be considered that the interesting devices attached to the grips might be associated with the talismans and symbols associated with Vodun or West African folk religion.

[dana_w]

Thanks so much for your comments Jim!

I don't know how much credence to given to the Haitian Rebellion story, much less the association with Georges Biassou. Right now it is just an interesting anecdotal story with no supporting evidence.

I checked my notes and the gentleman who claims to have once own my sword says he purchased it from Andrew Bottomley (UK), and that it can be found in one of his mail order catalogs from the late 90s or early 2000s. I haven't manage to get my hands on the old catalogs to check. Hopefully more provenance information may be found there so I am trying.

[Jim McDougall]

You're very welcome Dana, and I appreciate the personal response.
I do remember Bottomley, and although the U.K. provenance would seem to weaken the attribution to North American regions, it does seem that these weapons were often received in trades. It was usually through this medium that many weapons such as Spanish Colonial and Civil War items ended up 'across the pond'.
It seems it was late 90s that I recall his catalogs from.

While the Haitian connection is of course entirely speculative, circumstantially it is compelling, and mostly because of the curious nature of these in comparison to the contemporary Spanish cuphilt forms attributed to the Caribbean. These can be seen in "Spanish Military Weapons of Colonial America" (Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain, 1972) and "Arms and Armour in Colonial America" , Harold Peterson.

[fernando]

... I checked my notes and the gentleman who claims to have once own my sword says he purchased it from Andrew Bottomley (UK), and that it can be found in one of his mail order catalogs from the late 90s or early 2000s. I haven't manage to get my hands on the old catalogs to check....
Don't bother looking in catalogues #7 and #8 from that period (1998 & 2000). I have both and your sword is not there.

[M ELEY]

Astounding!!! I really never expected to see another cuphilt so exacting as Fernando's, and here it is! Unfortunately, I have nothing to add to Jim and 'Nando's exceptional information and theories. I am truly fascinated by the details of these two swords, especially the decorations to the rayskin(?) grip. Still wonder if those puzzle-like pieces hold some clue to the origin- :shrug:

Spanish colonial pieces are often 'brutally' put together, like the bowl on this sword pierced by the tang. Likewise, the side quillons, with their reinforced supports are typical provincial work. What remains interesting to me is that there is also skilled decoration on the piece, as if there had been two makers? When I look at the overall piece, I sort of see what looks like a sword hiding under all of the adornments, if you know what I mean. Could this sword have been re-worked in its life-time, with a newer bowl and supported quillons added. In any case, an excellent piece that literally exudes history! I could see it being later, ca. late 18th as well.

Jim, I have never heard of the Galluchat method for false shagreening! Thanks for that bit of information. I'll do some research on it myself for future reference-

[fernando]

... I am truly fascinated by the details of these two swords, especially the decorations to the rayskin (?) grip....
The key to their familiarity, no doubt Mark.

... Still wonder if those puzzle-like pieces hold some clue to the origin ...
A challenge to experts ;)

...What remains interesting to me is that there is also skilled decoration on the piece, as if there had been two makers? ...
Like if it had a second life ? the later not so operational and more directed to ostentation ? :o

... Could this sword have been re-worked in its life-time, with a newer bowl and supported quillons added... [/B]
Or the decorations to the bowl also an addition to the original ? :o

[M ELEY]

Aaaaah! Fernando, you are correct with your rhetorical questioning, but what a puzzle it is! :eek:

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
Indeed these are a conundrum, and I think the rhetorically placed idea that the embellishment on the cup bowl is likely added on. I am inclined to follow my suggestion that these were probably Spanish cuphilts or their components obtained by Haitian artisans from Spaniards in the period noted. The silver devices on the faux rayskin seem likely to be 'charms'or amulet type devices likely from the items used in the native folk religion.
Naturally they may simply be aesthetic adornments, however it is tempting to think they were applied more symbolically.
It seems reasonable to think these two swords are of the period noted around the Haitian Rebellion, and compellingly suggest the same artisan or workshop completed them both .

Who knows, in a few years maybe somebody else will turn one up? It happened with the 'Berber' sabres; 'Black Sea yatagans' and the Cuban guabacoa anomalies.

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Sorry, I was out of town until today. Back to this fascinating cup-hilt form.

Jim, I had missed your earlier synopsis of this sword's Haitian connection, with its talismanic charms on the grip. Your theory makes sense! There were certainly very specific styles of espadas that we see throughout the colonies. The Cuban style swords, as pictured in Brinkerhoff's volume comes to mind (their distinctive strap-like bars with studs to the guard). All of the Indies undoubtedly had their own styles, much like the Brazilian cutlass that you helped identify on this forum. I do hope you are right that we might see others in the future to pin this form down.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
I missed your response, thank you so much for the kind words as always. I do recall those espadas we identified as Brazilian, and were of course probably much wider used throughout the 'Spanish Main' of the 19th c.
That was really quite a breakthrough as we had little knowledge on Spanish colonial edged weapons outside those in Mexico and the Southwest.

Interesting on these cuphilts and reading some discussion on another forum, how incredibly little these are known at large. Aside from one writer based in Spain and a brilliant arms scholar, other notes were pretty void .

I like the fact that here we are able to stay with a topic and pursue more data and examples with the goal of actually learning the history of these arms. It seems others just want a label, or wording to sell things.

I always hope more will come in on these, I really do believe these were of the same location and perhaps even workshop.

[M ELEY]

Absolutely agree to generic labeling of pieces these days, Jim. The importance of pinpointing not only adds to our knowledge, but for those that enjoy the fine details, helps us appreciate the history behind it. I have found this fact particularly with naval weapons. Many weapons that went to sea were not documented and must be labeled 'associated'. That being said, some collectors shy away from anything but weapons with absolute exacting proof of such (anchor designs, rack numbers, axe patterns used by naval) while ignoring other pieces that very likely were nautical examples, but need more research to pin them down. Sorry to divert from the sword at hand, but I think the point is this form of sword differs from its cousins for a reason and hopefully, we'll crack its code someday!

[fernando]

... That being said, some collectors shy away from anything but weapons with absolute exacting proof ...
Touché Capitão ... naval or not naval. Within such concept you have 'restricted' or 'vague' labels, like a sword of the Peninsular War or a spontoon of the American Revolution.
But you will have to recognize that a weapon full of marks and dates scores a better position in the rank of preferences; not including those which are so undoubtedly identifiable that one looks 'instead' for their perservation condition.
These two swords bear symptoms of having being in the same location (colony) and potentialy made (read hilted or even rehilted) by the same guild or even the same artisan. Their life path may (read must) have however been a different one.
My sword was in Spain when i acquired it; Dana's example was in Great Britain.
My sword has a traditional Spaniosh blade with the inscription; Dana's example is a plain rapier type one.
With these ingredients, missing precise data and giving wings to imagination,
one could design here two rather different stories.
My sword could have gone from Spain to the Colonies, be rehilted by a local smith as an added (or souvenir) value to its (Spanish) owner and return to the main land, later ending in the hands of a familiar who later sold it or gave it way.
Danas's example could have been hilted or re-hilted in the same spot but remained there, as a local field/ornament weapon, later brought to Britain for whatever reason, including commercial purposes.
Now ... how's that for an approach ? :cool:
Let me tell you guys that, nobody in the world is more zealous enthusiast of a piece's precise provenance than me ... for one :o

[Jim McDougall]

Nando, I should have more carefully worded my comment to note 'we' meaning most of us here on these forums, it sounded like I meant just Mark and myself :) oops! Quite true.......you're a super sleuth when it comes to provenance and studying developed history on these arms!!
I know...you and I have been at it for how many years now!!! ???

It is true, an item that has established pedigree in provenance, or that is well marked and referenced certainly does excel in historic value .

Thank you for reiterating the comparative differences between these two examples, which clearly were taken on different courses after leaving their original point of fabrication. Nicely summarized!!

Mark, you're spot on with your notes on the variations and undocumented instances of arms 'probably' used in maritime circumstances. We well know that to be the case on 'pirate' vessels, and do you recall our push to discover how likely it was that Scottish (and other) basket hilts were used at sea? I believe years ago Dr. Mazansky did an x-ray study on a basket hilt of late 16th century from an English shipwreck off Bermuda (part of the source material for Shakespeare's "The Tempest" if I recall) .

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

......you're a super sleuth when it comes to provenance and studying developed history on these arms!!...
Ah ... sleuth, a term i would never dreamed of :o .
Nothing like being here to improve one's english ... like stalwart and so ;).
But ... let's hear what the Capitão has to say about my fantasies :cool:

[Jim McDougall]

Ah ... sleuth, a term i would never dreamed of :o .
Nothing like being here to improve one's english ... like stalwart and so ;).
But ... let's hear what the Capitão has to say about my fantasies :cool:


kinky!!! :)

[M ELEY]

Fernando- I see your point, my friend, and certainly don't deny that a piece with provenance or a well-documented artifact always wins out. My point was simply that today's questioned piece, that might be either overlooked or even scoffed at by purists, might very well prove to be tomorrow's treasures! The story lies in the details, no doubt, and that is also where the excitement (or eternal frustration!) lies. Ultimately, one will either like the piece for what it is or not. Purists might shy away from anything but the classic Spanish/Portuguese/Italian cuphilt. Others may revel in the fascination with colonial pieces, such as the Caribbean cup-hilts. I tend to judge pieces these days based on whether I like them or not. If they don't feel right, I part with them- :shrug:
Anyway, still fascinated with both swords and their possible connection.

Jim, you have peaked my interests again in baskethilts. I've always wanted one for my collection, but could never justify such a piece in a naval collection. Your lead (which I hope to follow up on, once I get a day off!!) gives me hope again! I think Annis mentions at least one basket in his book with an association with the sea. Got to look over my notes again!

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely Mark....collectors or any kind of enthusiasts on history and weapons will have their preferences and chosen fields of study, often very selective and 'purist' , but I think the most fascinating are the anomalies and variations . There's where the real historical detection come in!

As we know on the baskethilts, the instance with the Highlander who killed Blackbeard in 1715 using his broadsword in the melee on the decks of the pirate's vessel, he was probably one of the regular troops locally who joined Maynard's naval group in this ambush.
I have found however, a couple of instances where Highland basket hilts were included among noted arms used on pirate vessels. The National Maritime Museum could not specify nor confirm such use of these on ships, but if I recall such instances could not be categorically excluded . I think you're right, Annis might have mentioned one, now Im fired up too!! :)
Off to the notes.

All the best
Jim

[M ELEY]

Hi, Jim! Here's what I found. In Annis' monumental work on sea swords (think 'officer's sword' mostly, as the National Maritime Museum was what he was referencing mostly), he mentions several broadswords with nautical connections. Only two of them from the Greenwich collection were of the Scottish/English baskethilt pattern. They were-

James Robertson-Walker's (entered naval service 1801, died 1858). His was a steel baskethilt broadsword double edged (not a backsword), with flattened bars, heart shapes, hemispherical pommel, fishskin grip. The blade marked with the Passau running wolf and orb/cross marking. The attribution wasn't rock-solid, but better than most.

The second was a doozy! Again, the attribution wasn't definite, but I'm told other works possibily support its nature. It was a baskethilt worn by John Scott, Lord Nelson's Secretary on the Victory when it sailed at Trafalgar! It was also a steel basket, larger and more ornate than the previous example, with steel bars, heart shapes, cross-shaped designs in the bars, leather-bound grip with wire, conical pommel. This sword bore the Arms of Mechlenberg, marking '165' and an unidentified cutler's proof. Annis goes on to say that this sword is 'meagerly supported' to be Scott's sea sword.

The author goes on to say the obvious. In rare circumstances, these sword types and quite a few others went to sea based on the taste, whims and style of the officers that carried them. Prior to true naval patterning, with no rules came eclectic tastes. Such swords would be 'one-off' affairs, as their general practicality could be questioned (steel baskets rusted easily, their titanic blades made them of limited use on crowded ships, etc). Annis does bring up the important point, however, of troop trnasports. Soldiers (read 'armies!') on board a ship probably carried such. It was just such an epiphany that I had when struggling over the whole 'were Span/Portuguese cuphilt swords really worn by sailors', as depicted in so many movies and books? The answer, surprisingly, was 'yes'. The Treasure Fleets had contingents of soldiers aboard every ship, thus, they wore bilbos and cuthilts. Such an argument could be used to say that any military branch riding aboard a naval transport would have been so armed. Even in the British Navy, post 1790, we see branches of the Royal Marines on the ship for disciplinary purposes, discouragement of mutiny, land raids, etc. That branch of the military carried their own swords, guns, etc.

Finally (!), we must never forget the privateers, merchant class and pirates ( :eek: ), whose fleets dwarfed even the British fleet. The men of these typle vessels carried just about anything they d#mned well pleased! So, as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to Scottish baskethilts at sea, it's a 'maybe yes or maybe no', but proving that a sword wasn't naval is just as hard as proving that it was!

[M ELEY]

Deleted...

Sorry, tried to post pic.

[dana_w]

Is there a definitive list of characteristic which separate Colonial Cup Hilts from those made in Europe. Sometimes it seems to be a “I know it when I see it” situation

Peterson's "Arms and Armour in Colonial America. 1526-1783" is not much help, and I don’t own a copy of Brinckerhoff and Chamberlain’s “Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821”, …. yet.

[Jim McDougall]

Is there a definitive list of characteristic which separate Colonial Cup Hilts from those made in Europe. Sometimes it seems to be a “I know it when I see it” situation

Peterson's "Arms and Armour in Colonial America. 1526-1783" is not much help, and I don’t own a copy of Brinckerhoff and Chamberlain’s “Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821”, …. yet.

That is a very reasonably placed question Dana, and of course as far as I know, there are no definitive or categorized descriptions which would comprise a guide on cuphilts. The Continental European forms are well described in a number of references, probably one of the best would be book by A.V.B.Norman "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820" (1980).While these are typically expensive there is I believe a reprint and interlibrary loan is another option.

The colonial examples are far less defined as they are typically roughly fashioned and rather than being the elegant, pierced steel examples or even the simpler forms on the Continent, they are often workmanlike and rugged arming swords. Instead of the thin, swift rapier blades they carry heavier arming broadsword blades.

The Continental examples will usually have a 'rompepuntas' (a folded over ridge around the rim of the cup), worked or writhen quillons and more artistically fashioned elements than the simple cups and guards of the colonials. Also inside the cup a fixture known as the 'guardopolvo' (ostensibly =dust guard) is at the aperture for the blade and surrounding it...these are not on colonial examples. The Colonial forms usually had the heavier broadsword blades, however it is known that shipments of the narrow rapier blades made in Solingen with Spanish makers names and marks did go to New Spain in some degree in the 18th century. It would seem that the traditional Spaniard gentry may have still kept the older form swords there, but I have never seen examples of them with these blades.

Keep in mind that the cuphilt form came into use at some time in the first half of the 17th century in Italy, Spain and in some degree in Germany. Often these are referred to broadly as 'Spanish cuphilts' but many, especially the piercework types, were Brescian or northern Italian. I believe much of the confusion was because many of these areas in Italy were actually Spanish provincial.
By the end of the 17th century, the cuphilt was essentially obsolete everywhere except in deeply traditional Spain . While it gradually went out of fashion even there into the 18th century, these were still favored in New Spain and there they continued to fashion the cup guards for heavy arming blades through the 18th and into the early 19th.

I think the examples shown here by Fernando and Mark are excellent in illustrating the somewhat rough, but superbly charming work seen in these remotely fashioned versions of these revered and traditional swords.

I hope this might be of some help, and to better follow the peculiarities of these colonial swords, Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain is essential.
As it has been some time since researching these, and I am relying on memory in writing this, I hope others might also add more reliable input.

[dana_w]

A friend who read my recent post offered to give/loan me a copy of of Brinckerhoff and Chamberlain’s “Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821”. WOW, Thanks "Anonymous"!

***

To summarize Jim's comments, Colonial Cup Hilts (cuphilts) are:

(A) "Typically" more roughly made & less decorative
(B) "Usually" more rugged arming swords rather than slender rapiers

You've mention elsewhere that Colonial Cup Hilts are

(C) "Normally" missing the arms in the hilt which hold the cup.

I'm off to find a copy of "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820".

[Jim McDougall]

That's fantastic Dana!!! It is an excellent reference, and effectively the only reference standing on Spanish colonial arms with other references quite esoteric and hard to find.
The guardopolvo is a plate at the base of the cup inside which surrounds the entry point of the blade and is ostensibly considered a 'dust cover', though that purpose seems tenuous and it seems more decorative. The quillons extend across the rim of the cup circumference the same as Continental types, but they are more rudimentary.
You have a PM .
Jim

[dana_w]

Sorry, I should have attributed condition (C) to "Juan J. Perez at swordforum.com . This is an exact quote:

"This sort of swords differs mainly from the peninsular civilian cup-hilts not only for their cruder manufacture and broader blades, but in the absence of the arms of the hilt that hold the cup in the original form of this sword.

However, this is not only a feature of swords from the Spanish colonies in America, but from Portuguese ones, and even from Portugal mainland itself, where this sort of cup-hilt was made regulation for cavalry units. This is always an option that should not be discarded."

I hesitate to say anything about Portugal :o

So Jim, to the list, should I add:

(D) They seldom have 'guardopolvo' (ostensibly = dust guard)

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Dana, I had forgotten Juan's remarkable studies on Spanish arms, and to be honest I did not recall the interim part of the crossguard across the inner part of the cup being absent (I need to find pics again :) but it seems the bar extends across in the ones I've seen. As far as I have known, the straight quillon guard essentially sits atop or in the top of the cup.

I do know that the continuation of the cuphilt phenomenon continued as noted into the 19th century in the colonial regions, and I have even seen 'court' type cuphilts with the traditional bowl and a vestigial crossguard across its base as a straight bar! obviously entirely redundant.

[M ELEY]

Excellent followup questions and answers. Just wanted to add the grip materials and shape can also be defining factors of the colonial types (I.e. Carribean or New World). In particular, horn grips with crisscross patterning is often seen, as are 'bulging' grips as seen on colonial espada and cuphilts.

Does anyone want to argue the 'mushroom-shaped' pommel styles as being colonial? Peterson used this one as a tip of the hat towards Spanish Main and I tend to believe him- :shrug:

[dana_w]

This is the only Spanish Colonial Cup Hilt I own that has a horn grip. As you can see the line patterns on this one run in parallel. I guess this grip could also be described at "bulging".

I'll add a "mushroom-shaped" pommel style example when I have a chance to photograph one.

The photos that I have posted here are copyright (c) 2014 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved.

[fernando]

[I]"This sort of swords differs mainly from the peninsular civilian cup-hilts not only for their cruder manufacture and broader blades, but in the absence of the arms of the hilt that hold the cup in the original form of this sword.

However, this is not only a feature of swords from the Spanish colonies in America, but from Portuguese ones, and even from Portugal mainland itself, where this sort of cup-hilt was made regulation for cavalry units. This is always an option that should not be discarded....
Absolutely right !!! One way to differentiate Portuguese from Spanish cuphilt swords when present, other than consider them genericaly Peninsular

[fernando]

...This is the only Spanish Colonial Cup Hilt I own that has a horn grip...
Why not Portuguese ? :o

[dana_w]

That is a good question Fernando. Maybe you could help me with a list that would exclude the possibility of a possible Colonial Cup Hilt being Portuguese.

I noticed that the cup on your has rivets, but not mounting hardware attached.

[fernando]

That is a good question Fernando. Maybe you could help me with a list that would exclude the possibility of a possible Colonial Cup Hilt being Portuguese.

I noticed that the cup on your has rivets, but not mounting hardware attached.

I don't have the luggage to list details to differentiate cuphilts from being Spanish, Portuguese or Colonial, Dana. I play a bit by ear. One thing i learned is that Portuguese and Spanish are often so alike that the name convenientely given by connoisseurs is Penisular ... which is not surprising, due to, during a large period in which these swords were in fashion, Portugal was under Spanish control; also neighbourhood cultural convergence and all that.
The only solid difference that i have learned is, when present, the weklding of the quillons to the bowl instead of the internal securing arms, normaly fixed by screws. Another alternative,also when present, is the mark of the smith or the language in which the eventual inscriptions in the blade are printed ... but even this is passive of failure, as swords could be made in one country (Spain) with inscriptions in the others language, either by clients demand or just for fashion.
Concerning Colonial variants, i guess they are often more 'folkloric', made and decorated in a non sophisticated or rustic manner. But as i say, i am playing by ear and basicaly depend on the seller's assumptions ... when they appear to make sense to me.
The silver rivets in mine are not for fixing the bowl but only for show off, like the trimmings in the grip.

[dana_w]

I am waiting on “Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821” before venturing to deeply into this topic, but here is what we have so far?

(A) More roughly made & less decorative
(B) More rugged arming swords rather than slender rapiers
(C) More likely to have natural grips made of horn or wood (crisscross patterning?, bulging?)
(D) More likely to have a "mushroom-shaped" pommel
(E) Typically the cup is welded to the quillons rather than mounted with internal securing arms, that are normally fixed by screws (This is also typical of Portuguese Cup Hilts)
(F) Typically missing the guardopolvo (dust guard?) where the blade penetrate through the cup

Attached are photos of a "Spanish Colonial" Cup Hilt with a "mushroom-shaped" pommel. Note that the cup is welded to the quillons via arms on the lip of the cup.

These photos are copyright (c) 2014 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved.

[M ELEY]

www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17232

Just wanted to post this to show the mushroom-style pommel, welded bars of the guard and horn checkered grips. Examples of the 4-sided checkering of grip material can be seen in Peterson's book as well as in Brinkerhoff's.

[dana_w]

www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17232

Just wanted to post this to show the mushroom-style pommel, welded bars of the guard and horn checkered grips. Examples of the 4-sided checkering of grip material can be seen in Peterson's book as well as in Brinkerhoff's.

Thanks for pointing me at your legacy post. Nice Cup Hilt! And a good example of the grip you were talking about.

[dana_w]

Yea! My copy of “Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821” , has arrived.

I would like to publicly thank the person who sent me this wonderful book, my GOOD FRIEND Miqueleter, who I met here on the forum.

Miqueleter also included some other goodies, one of which I have posted here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=171444&postcount=1

[M ELEY]

WOW! I want to be friends with Miqueleter!! I love shipwreck pieces, as they define a moment captured in time and usually under terrible (but historic) circumstances. Very nice piece!

BTW, anyone out there happen to have a copy of "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America"? I have a xerox copy of that hard-to-find manual given me by an exceptional gentleman (thanks, Jim McD!!), but would like the book.

[dana_w]

Now that I have had a chance to peruse “Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821”, I still have a question or two. On page 72, the authors use the term “Colonial Rapier” to describe a cup hilt much like the one I posted here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=171320&postcount=63

I wouldn’t have described this as a rapier. It seem more like a “broadsword”. The blade width at forte: 1 inch || 2.54 cm.

The Oxford Dictionary defines a rapier as “A thin, light, sharp-pointed sword used for thrusting”. The Dictionary goes on to say this about the origin of the word.

Early 16th century: from French rapière, from râpe 'rasp, grater' (because the perforated hilt resembles a rasp or grater).

Just how wide can a cup hilts blade be before it is no longer considered a rapier?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Dana,
Again, there are typically no set specifications per se' for classification terminology (they are more 'guidelines' ), and one of the most frustrating issues is that semantics and parlance are often at play with descriptions . The term rapier is of course associated with the thin thrusting swords such as cuphilts and swept hits and thought of in fencing and dueling. The term broadened somewhat at the opening of the 18th century (much as the blades) when these typically civilian hilts became more prevalent in military circumstances. The hilts often remained much the same but the heavier blades were 'arming' swords so vernacular terms became entwined.

The term broadsword for example is typically regarded as meaning double edged, however in the 18th century the term was often universally used for both single and double edged swords. "By the Sword" by Cohen, and "Schools and Masters of Fence",by Egerton Castle, often touch on these curious terminology conundrums .

I prefer to classify using more descriptive terms rather than the general classifications which as can be seen, are not always properly used. For the colonial cuphilts I would use probably 'Spanish colonial cuphilt' and describe the blade. Classifications using strictly categorized terms are often better used with required descriptive qualification to define variation.

[dana_w]

I prefer to classify using more descriptive terms rather than the general classifications which as can be seen, are not always properly used. For the colonial cuphilts I would use probably 'Spanish colonial cuphilt' and describe the blade. Classifications using strictly categorized terms are often better used with required descriptive qualification to define variation.

That is helpful Jim. Maybe I am trying too hard to find generally agreed upon classifications for something that has too many exceptions. The problem I run into is a cup hilt like the one shown below.

[fernando]

I would call this one a beautiful bowl cup hilt rapier ;)

[dana_w]

Thanks fernando, I am glad you like it.

I have searched in vain for the term "bowl cup hilt" being used to describe a rapier. Is that a translation of some Portuguese description.

It is true that the cup hilt of this sword is more shallow and also offset to one side. It is obviously designed for a right handed user. The cup seems to be cast with floral decorations in high relief. The pommel is decorated with a with floral pattern too. The quillons are attached to small extensions on the lip of the cup. What do you think, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian? For some reason it looks almost French to me. Maybe from some place near the Pyrenees?

The blade would seem to be one of those German imports that Jim has often mentioned.

Blade length: 36 3/16 inches || 91.916 cm
Blade thickness at forte: 3/8 inch || 0.953 cm
Blade width at forte: 5/8 inch || 1.588 cm
Quillons extension: 2 3/16 inches from cup edge on the knuckle bow side || 5.556 cm
Cup width: 4 7/16 inches where Quillon meet the cup || 11.271 cm
Total length: 42 inches || 106.68 cm
Point of balance: about 4 inches from the bottom of the cup
Weight: 1 lb, 8 1/2 oz || 0.695 kg


Photos are copyright (c) 2014 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved.

[fernando]

... I have searched in vain for the term "bowl cup hilt" being used to describe a rapier. Is that a translation of some Portuguese description ...
Yes, this is the translation for 'copos de tigela' This way you can distinguish the 'basic' bowl (tigela) from other shapes of cups (copos), like the 'margarida' (daisy-flower) or 'conchas' (shells).

,

[fernando]

... The blade would seem to be one of those German imports that Jim has often mentioned...
Certainly a German blade, possibly from the XVIII century. Can't you figure out the name between Iohannes and Solingen ?

[dana_w]

On one side it reads MORSACH and on the other MORSBACH.

JOHANNES MORSBACH SOLINGEN