Question about a Dha

[kino]

I picked up this "Asian Sword", (sellers description), over the weekend at an antique show. I searched Mark Bowditch's D.R.A. ,for a similar looking example, found similar type of pommels but with different shaped blade and almost same type blade with diffferent hilts.
Is this a Shan dha? it has these engravings on the blade that one might find on a tourist piece. I believe this one is fairly old judging by the patina on the copper hilt. Anyone want to take a stab at the age?
Thanks in advance. :)

[Nathaniel]

Kino

Interesting piece. The makers mark on the blade is a new one I have not seen before! You should add this one to the thread on dha/ daab makers marks!

I'll let Mark, Andrew or someone else speak of the type. I'm not sure. Interesting though that the hilt is copper? Not something you see all that often. Maybe just the patina as there are several alloys in SEA. Thanks for sharing!

Great find!

[Gavin Nugent]

A beautiful piece, congrats Kino. I like the blade very much.
Whilst the hilt may appear copper to you, I think you will find it is tarnished silver. I have several Dha that were of this hue and they are silver. it appears many silvers from these regions go this colour, I am guessing something to do with the smelting process of the alloys and the inpurities they mix with the base metal.

Congrats again.

Gav

[Nathaniel]

The decoration on the blade reminds me of these two pieces:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3789

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3776

[kino]

Thanks guys.
Tarnished silver alloy... Well when I get home this evening I will
have to pay close attention to the material. Maybe polish a small
section.
Thanks for the link showing similar decorations.

[Andrew]

Nice sword. Thai, probably early 20th c., in my opinion.

I do not necessarily disagree with Gav that the handle material may well be a silver alloy. However, I'd lean more towards some other alloy--perhaps a type of brass (copper/zinc).

Andrew

[Battara]

According to the patina I see, I would say brass or, more likely, copper.

[Gavin Nugent]

According to the patina I see, I would say brass or, more likely, copper.

Copper patina;

Here is an example of Thai silver showing a copper patina. These are the hilts of the large Namphee steel swords or unusual form.
Note the one of the left is still in the original patina, the one on the right was the same but now cleaned.

Good luck.

Gav

[Andrew]

Different alloys will patina differently, Gav. :shrug: :)

[Battara]

Right Andrew - on the money!

I can tell that if the middle one has silver, it is a very low silver, but I would say most likely it is brass.

The one on the left is low silver (if any silver) or perhaps nickel silver (no silver content) with perhaps a low silver pommel.

The one on the right seems to have silver content.

Again: different alloys = different patinas.

[Andrew]

Jose, the right and left handles shown by Gav are a matched set--the right one has been cleaned.

I see what he is talking about--the patina on the left example sure does have a "coppery" tone.

Again, it's going to be quite hard to definitively determine the metal just from the patina (not to mention the fact we're all only looking a pictures on a computer monitor).

However, having said that (and having handled hundreds of examples from the region) I would say that the patina in the original example looks more like a brass alloy than a silver alloy. :shrug:

[Gavin Nugent]

Another view...just never got around to finishing the job.

Gav

[Andrew]

Gav, does the handle of the cleaned sword look like the silver has some color to it? I wonder if that might not be a silver/copper alloy, which would account for the reddish-brown color of the patina.

I have some silver Thai swords of similar design where the silver patina turned a really nice, rich, lustrous midnight blue. A smalll polished area looked purely silver, but there is clearly an alloy metal there that caused a rather atypical patina color.

BTW, those two swords must be very troubling for you to keep track of--let me know if you want me to hold them for you. ;)

[Battara]

Well most silver is an alloy of some copper. However, if there is a slight reddish hue, then there may be more copper in it making it a lower silver content.

Good point on the patina - tarnish may turn brown on silver, especially the more copper it has.

[Gavin Nugent]

Gav, does the handle of the cleaned sword look like the silver has some color to it? I wonder if that might not be a silver/copper alloy, which would account for the reddish-brown color of the patina.

I have some silver Thai swords of similar design where the silver patina turned a really nice, rich, lustrous midnight blue. A smalll polished area looked purely silver, but there is clearly an alloy metal there that caused a rather atypical patina color.

BTW, those two swords must be very troubling for you to keep track of--let me know if you want me to hold them for you. ;)

Hi Andrew,

The silver handles actually have a blue colour to them in my eye, I'll find some natural lighting conditions to show it better. The same blue hue is seen in the blades too.
All the low laying areas carry a blue patina. I'll have a good look at the uncleaned pieces tonight and advise of any noticable attributes with in the brown colour.

Some times they are hard and troubling to keep track of and please know you are more than welcome to hold them if you ever visit Brisbane :D

Gav

[Nathaniel]

This Thai short polearm I have has a curious red/brown on the silver ferrule...I don't know if it is a stain...or a natural patina/tarnish...

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/lofu6379/sword%20copper%20silver%20fittings/DSC_5583.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/lofu6379/sword%20copper%20silver%20fittings/DSC_5586.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/lofu6379/sword%20copper%20silver%20fittings/DSC_5598.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/lofu6379/sword%20copper%20silver%20fittings/DSC_5597.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/lofu6379/sword%20copper%20silver%20fittings/DSC_5596.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/lofu6379/sword%20copper%20silver%20fittings/DSC_5585.jpg

[Nathaniel]

Gav, does the handle of the cleaned sword look like the silver has some color to it? I wonder if that might not be a silver/copper alloy, which would account for the reddish-brown color of the patina.

I have some silver Thai swords of similar design where the silver patina turned a really nice, rich, lustrous midnight blue. A smalll polished area looked purely silver, but there is clearly an alloy metal there that caused a rather atypical patina color.

BTW, those two swords must be very troubling for you to keep track of--let me know if you want me to hold them for you. ;)

Yes, I've definitely seen different patina's on Thai silver....I remember too seeing some antique silver jewelry that was a surprising dark midnight blue hue! Love to see some pictures of those beautiful midnight blues :P

[Nathaniel]

Hi Andrew,

The silver handles actually have a blue colour to them in my eye, I'll find some natural lighting conditions to show it better. The same blue hue is seen in the blades too.
All the low laying areas carry a blue patina. I'll have a good look at the uncleaned pieces tonight and advise of any noticable attributes with in the brown colour.

Some times they are hard and troubling to keep track of and please know you are more than welcome to hold them if you ever visit Brisbane :D

Gav

The blades though are blue for another reason though :D Very interesting...would love to see that captured in a good light as well!

[Battara]

Nathaniel, those areas look like silver tarnish. The purer the silver, the bluer the tarnish will be.

The problem is that the purer the silver, the softer it is and thus less durable, so copper is added in different amounts to strengthen the silver and make it more durable.

[Nathaniel]

Nathaniel, those areas look like silver tarnish. The purer the silver, the bluer the tarnish will be.

The problem is that the purer the silver, the softer it is and thus less durable, so copper is added in different amounts to strengthen the silver and make it more durable.

Cool Jose :cool: Thanks for the education in metallurgy...so much I have to learn! Love it. :p

[kino]

Nice sword. Thai, probably early 20th c., in my opinion.

I do not necessarily disagree with Gav that the handle material may well be a silver alloy. However, I'd lean more towards some other alloy--perhaps a type of brass (copper/zinc).

Andrew


Andrew, Thanks.

I have not had the time to look over or polish the hilt. This weekend I will have some time to do it and I will update on what I find.


Nathaniel, thanks for the additional info.

[Andrew]

Yes, I've definitely seen different patina's on Thai silver....I remember too seeing some antique silver jewelry that was a surprising dark midnight blue hue! Love to see some pictures of those beautiful midnight blues :P

Nathaniel, I have three swords with a very deep, blue patina. Don't have access to pics of the best one, however.

Here are pics from the HOS exhibition in Macau of my other two. Interstingly, in the light used to photograph them, the patina doesn't look blue--rather it looks quite brown in the one, and you can see hints of brown in the other (which, btw, has a handle very similar to Gav's beautiful matched set).

I think the vagaries of lighting, photography and computer monitor settings/quality are going to significantly affect our ability to really appreciate color and patina. No substitute for actually handling these... :shrug:

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/220-ayw15a.jpg
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/254-mib10.jpg

[Battara]

Again not unusual. Silver patinas range from blue, yellow, brown, black.

[Andrew]

Agreed. However, the top one with the brown-looking patina in that photo is actually a dark blue patina in the hand!

Just pointing out that pics on the web aren't always helpful... :)

[Nathaniel]

Nathaniel, I have three swords with a very deep, blue patina. Don't have access to pics of the best one, however.

Here are pics from the HOS exhibition in Macau of my other two. Interstingly, in the light used to photograph them, the patina doesn't look blue--rather it looks quite brown in the one, and you can see hints of brown in the other (which, btw, has a handle very similar to Gav's beautiful matched set).

I think the vagaries of lighting, photography and computer monitor settings/quality are going to significantly affect our ability to really appreciate color and patina. No substitute for actually handling these... :shrug:

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/220-ayw15a.jpg
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/254-mib10.jpg

Thanks Andrew :) Even though it doesn't show in the picture I can easily picture. I remember how surprised I was to see the definite blue hue of my auntie's antique jewelery. I never took a picture of them though...it would be interesting sometime to do that to see if I could get the blue to show up in a photo! Thanks for sharing.
:D

[Nathaniel]

Andrew, Thanks.

I have not had the time to look over or polish the hilt. This weekend I will have some time to do it and I will update on what I find.


Nathaniel, thanks for the additional info.

I'm kind of torn...maybe just clean up a small spot...I like the patina regardless of what metal alloy it is....I know several Thai collectors comment how westerners like to clean up things too much.

[Nathaniel]

One interesting motif on your handle is the flower....you also see one in the two swords Gavin pictured and also this most recent sword on OA: http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=4565

[tom hyle]

Nathaniel; wow! How long is that naginatoid? Beauty!

[Nathaniel]

Nathaniel; wow! How long is that naginatoid? Beauty!

Hello Tom

Which sword? Kino's seems to have about a 20 inch blade. None are mine :)

[Andrew]

I believe Tom is talking about the short pole arm of yours in post #16.

You know, the one you want to sell to me? ;)

[Nathaniel]

I believe Tom is talking about the short pole arm of yours in post #16.

You know, the one you want to sell to me? ;)

Oh my bad! Tom, the stats of Andrew's pole arm he's letting me take care of ;) are:

Blade = 32cm (12.6 inches)

Total length = 76cm (30 inches)