Metal wrapped javanese hilt

[Sajen]

I want to show you a rare javanese metal wrapped hilt I buy some time ago from a member of this forum. The metal isn't pure silver, I think that it is german silver. The core is some sort of resin. The seller told me that the hilt is from Cirebon, can someone confirm this. The pictures from the seller are very good so I use them and hope it's ok like this.
Every comment is welcome and I hope that someone can show a similar hilt for comparison.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

The metal isn't pure silver, I think that it is german silver.
Awesome and unusual hilt. I don't know if a Solo style yudowinatan hilt would come from Cirebon though. :shrug:
Just and FYI, despite the name German Silver or Nickel Silver as it is also known actually contains no silver at all. It is generally composed of copper, nickel and zinc.

[David]

I toned this up a bit so that you can see the core a bit better.

[Sajen]

Awesome and unusual hilt. I don't know if a Solo style yudowinatan hilt would come from Cirebon though. :shrug:
Just and FYI, despite the name German Silver or Nickel Silver as it is also known actually contains no silver at all. It is generally composed of copper, nickel and zinc.


Thank you David for comment and brighten up the picture, the core is better to seen now. I am aware that there is no silver contain in German Silver but it's as well possible that the metal is a low silver alloy, I am unsure by this since I haven't test it until now.
The yudowinatan style of the hilt and the information from the seller that it come from Cirebon have been the reason why I post this hilt here. Without his information I would be sure that it is a hilt from Central Java, i.e. Solo. But I know that the seller have a very good knowledge and hope he see this thread and will be able to explain his conclusion. So the discussion is open for all to determine the origin of this hilt since I am not aware to have seen a similar hilt somewhere until now.

Regards,

Detlef

[Gustav]

Hallo Sajen,

in the new Groneman, page 25, there is a depiction of keris with completely silver covered sheath and hilt, I also have seen keris with very similar sarung for sell in Netherlands.

[Sajen]

Just found this old thread with a keris equipped with a similar hilt:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5888

[Sajen]

Hallo Sajen,

in the new Groneman, page 25, there is a depiction of keris with completely silver covered sheath and hilt, I also have seen keris with very similar sarung for sell in Netherlands.

Hello Gustav,

thank you for the hint. Yes, the hilt is very similar and the assumption that my hilt is Solonese more probable. I hope that the seller join in and will explain why he think that it is from Cirebon.

Regards,

Detlef

[Marcokeris]

I like a lot this hit. I don't think it comes from a Cirebon area. IMO: Solo
Very nice hit (i don't have one like this)

[Sajen]

I like a lot this hit. I don't think it comes from a Cirebon area. IMO: Solo
Very nice hit (i don't have one like this)

Thank you Marco, you are the third who vote for Solo.

Regards,

Detlef

[tunggulametung]

Hello guys,

First off, happy new year to all!

Nice thread. Detlef, if you allow me, I will throw my answer later as I want to hear what other said without interruption from my end. The more opinion the better. Anyhow, in the future should my personal opinion is what you after (I know you want to hear what other said in this thread), you know I'm just an email away ;) And thank you for the kind word Detlef, but I will say my knowledge is insufficient (I'm often lost) :o, and that's why I'm here to study because I know I can learn from far more experienced members or simply drooling over fine acquisition like what you usually post.

My answer will be quite simple and merely based on personal observation. But sorry I'm afraid I cannot academically confirm like be very very very sure of, just the reason and some opinions :)

All the best in 2011!

[Sajen]

Hello guys,

First off, happy new year to all!

Nice thread. Detlef, if you allow me, I will throw my answer later as I want to hear what other said without interruption from my end. The more opinion the better. Anyhow, in the future should my personal opinion is what you after (I know you want to hear what other said in this thread), you know I'm just an email away ;) And thank you for the kind word Detlef, but I will say my knowledge is insufficient (I'm often lost) :o, and that's why I'm here to study because I know I can learn from far more experienced members or simply drooling over fine acquisition like what you usually post.

My answer will be quite simple and merely based on personal observation. But sorry I'm afraid I cannot academically confirm like be very very very sure of, just the reason and some opinions :)

All the best in 2011!


Hello Chandra,

thank you for jumping in! :) Of course I know that I can write you by e-mail but like you suggest correct I want to hear other opinion also and it was a temporary suggestion to post the hilt for discussion. :)

So let us wait to hear other opinion until you post yours.

Also from me to you and all others a very good year 2011,

Detlef

[Jean]

I hope that Alan will be able to comment on the probable origin of this hilt?
I don't remember to have seen a similar piece in Solo or elsewhere.
Attached are the pictures of a Cirebon hilt made from silver alloy on a resin core (bought in 1995 in Jakarta, semi old I think).
Best regards and happy New Year to all!
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

I've come across a number of this style of hilt over the years, some very old, some of middle age, some quite recent. Anybody I've ever asked about them has said "North Coast Jawa".

[Sajen]

I've come across a number of this style of hilt over the years, some very old, some of middle age, some quite recent. Anybody I've ever asked about them has said "North Coast Jawa".

Thank you Alan, so it seems that Chandra is correct to appoint the origin of this hilt to Cirebon. As well the conclusion from Jean seems to confirm this.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

Thank you Alan, so it seems that Chandra is correct to appoint the origin of this hilt to Cirebon. As well the conclusion from Jean seems to confirm this.

Regards,

Detlef
Detlef, i might be mistaken, but i think that Alan might only be referring to the example that Jean has shown, not the one that you began the thread with.
:shrug:

[Sajen]

Detlef, i might be mistaken, but i think that Alan might only be referring to the example that Jean has shown, not the one that you began the thread with.
:shrug:

Now, when you write this I am unsure as well! :shrug:
Maybe Alan will be so kind to rectify this. :)

[Gustav]

Alan,

Jasper/Mas Pirngadie writes, the Surakarta hilt form comes from Paisisiran (page 210 abowe: (...)terwijl de Soesoehoenan van Soerakarta de oekirran Pasisirran zou hebben aangenomen.).

Is there some truth behinde this?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I was referring to Jean's hilt.

I have not read J&P. It is supposedly reliable, however, this hilt form shown at the beginning of this thread is definitely a Central Jawa form, very probably Surakarta.

It appears somewhat distorted on my screen and very miniscule variations in hilt forms of this general type can indicate different things.

In my experience this is most definitely a Central Javanese form, but I have no idea at all where it might have been made.

[Battara]

I must admit that I like these hilts. I love the chasing work on these. :)

I will also add from a metals standpoint that I feel that these would be made of thin sheet silver, which would be much softer than white metal or "German silver", and thus easier to work and more detail can be added.

[Sajen]

Thank you Alan for clarification. The hilt is approximate 9 cm (3,5 inch) high so it is not significant small but dainty worked.

Jose, i will test it the next days but I don't think that there is a silver contingent inside my hilt.

Regards,

Detlef

[PenangsangII]

the carving looks Cirebon to me though the overall hilt pakem conform Solonese. The mendak also looks like meniran Cirebon...

[Gustav]

This thread seems to become more and more weird - a classic of its kind :shrug:

[David]

the carving looks Cirebon to me though the overall hilt pakem conform Solonese. The mendak also looks like meniran Cirebon...
You have confused me Penangsang....which hilt are you commenting on? Sajen's original posting has no mendak, but it seems to be the one where the "overall hilt pakem conform Solonese". It is Jean's example that has a mendak and this one looks much more clearly Cirebon to me. :confused: :shrug:

[Sajen]

the carving looks Cirebon to me though the overall hilt pakem conform Solonese. The mendak also looks like meniran Cirebon...


I am confused as well! :shrug: Same reason like by David. Please can you explain from which hilt you are "speaking"?

Regards,

Detlef

[PenangsangII]

I am confused as well... that's the problem surfing the internet using small gadjet like a hand phone :) :)

aplogy everyone...got mixed up with the 2 great pictures.... yup, the first one is Solonese pakem but the metal works could have been Cirebon, as its often to see Cirebonese hilts wrapped in silver carved works.

The second one is of of course pesisiran type, most probably Cirebon or Banten. The mendak on the seco0nd hilt is meniran Cirebon type I think...

[Jean]

Dear friends, :)
Sorry to have been the source of so many confusions, it was not intentional but only to show another type of Javanese metal hilt on resin core and possibly from the same origin as the one from Sajen. May be some of you were distracted by the New Year festivities? :D
Best regards
Jean

[David]

Dear friends, :)
Sorry to have been the source of so many confusions, it was not intentional but only to show another type of Javanese metal hilt on resin core and possibly from the same origin as the one from Sajen. May be some of you were distracted by the New Year festivities? :D
Best regards
Jean
Hey Jean, i do not believe you are the source of confusion here so no need to apologize. Your entry in this thread is quite logical and applicable to the question... :)

[tunggulametung]

Hello guys, I guess I owe this following post and it is due. I've been exchanging some PMs with Detlef much earlier but here it goes.

This hilt is coming from a Cirebonese friend from whom I obtain some unique pieces, he said it is collected there and I have no doubt about his integrity.

I've seen few examples which is said coming from the area but unfortunately never as eleborate. Other than the shape which is attributed to Surakarta, the material, the build and artistic might give a good direction to Sunda, please refer to (easier to find) golok example from the region.

By mentioning Cirebon, I would suggest that we think of Sunda as a whole, i.e. Kuningan, Bandung, Ciamis, Sukabumi, Pandeglang, Serang, Cianjur, Sumedang, etc. and even the western approximate of Central Java.

I attached some old photos from KILTV online collection to show that by the late 1800s it seems that nunggak semi hilts is rather a standard for Sundanese aristocrates (most of the name confirm they are Sundanese ethnically i.e. not Javanese expatriate by Dutch appointment). If you browse more it is apperent that it is the same case with estern part of Java other than some people who prefer to carry local style on the occasion (East Java, Madura).

I could be wrong but I doubt nunggak semi is unique to Mataram in the past. To the more extreme way of thinking, can anyone prove that it is born over there? Then we learn that Islam teaching start from coastal regions (pesisiran) so could it be Banten? Cirebon? Tegal? Pekalongan? Demak? Jepara? Tuban? Gresik? When was it born? as early as 14 c.? 15c.? 16c.? older? much older? Has anybody worn it once in the street market of Trowulan of Gajah Mada time? Or only after Pajang era? Or is it imported (and/or modified) to Java from Sumatra (Pasai)? I doubt other than Syarif Hidayatullah (Sunan Gunung Jati) and people of his time who live long enough to witness the shift of Hindu to Islam (Majapahit to Mataram) can answer this.

If we brought it to modern time, it is now a 'standard' style, loosly and wrongly, nationwide. On the following pesisiran performace [clip] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJkR2VKgEXY) , the attire, the dance, the music, everything says Sundanese, but not the keris. It has travelled as far as Brunei Darussalam on formal pose and become one of the most popular government souvenir for foreign guests other than Balinese keris.

Of course I can be wrong on this and I'm always eager to learn something new :)

[tunggulametung]

More pictures... Raden Adipati Wira with his amazing collection and (once mine) carved horn hilt which is said coming from Cirebon (or surrounding :D).

[Sajen]

Hello Chandra,

thank you very much for your detailed post and the very interesting pictures. :)
I will describe my hilt as a Cirebon yudowinatan hilt. ;)

What catch my eyes are the collection from Raden Adipati Wira. The keris he wear in the first picture and is shown at the second picture in the middle again. The wrongko is typical Cirebon/Tegal but the handle is normally attributed to Sumatra/Kariman Djawa. Also the wrongko at the fourth picture on the left side is in the form of Palembang sheaths but it is not the first time that I have heard that this for is also common for Cirebon. This all shows again that the affinity between Java/Cirebon and Sumatra is very very close.

Thank you again and kind regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, there are a number of planar hilt forms, and the differences between them are very, very slight, one really needs to be a tukang jejeran with a family background in the craft to reliably differentiate between the various forms.

The Surakarta yudowinatan form is only one of many of the Surakarta planar hilt forms, but one thing is absolutely certain:- we cannot call this metal hilt "yudowinatan", because of its non-conforming cecekan --- apart from anything else.

In spite of Tunggalametung's interesting offering of photographs, I am afraid that I am unable to move from my opinion that this hilt form is a Central Javanese form, and very probably Surakarta --- but I am not saying here that it was made in Surakarta.

I base my seeming inflexibility on the fact that a photograph in the absence of context does not really demonstrate very much.

If we knew the time, place and circumstances of these photos, we may be able to use what we can see as some sort of evidence of something, but when we take into account the somewhat convoluted dress rules surrounding what was and what was not acceptable in defined circumstances we really are facing a probably insurmountable puzzle.

With all things Javanese there is a difficulty in interpreting anything that is seen, or heard, that can only be overcome with a complete understanding of the circumstances surrounding that which is seen or heard.

[Sajen]

Hello Alan,

you are right, I have used the term yudowinatan a little bit frivolous, maybe because it was used before in this thread. I am aware that there a lot different planar handle forms from Surakarta (such as: yudowinatan, canteng, dan longok and others). I have a small collection of different planar handle and when you see them side by side you can see they are different but I am not able to name them. Alongside there are also planar handle from East Java and Banyumasan with the same style. Maybe it will be nice to start one day a own thread about the different planar handle styles.

So I try to couch my description of this handle new: "A metal wrapped planar Central Javanese (most probable Surakarta) handle likely made in Cirebon."

Best regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, I am not out to start any sort of controversy in respect of origin of this hilt, I am only putting forward for consideration that which I can see.

In respect of the form, there is no doubt at all that it is a Central Javanese form, however, design and execution of detail do vary from what we are used to seeing in a Surakarta hilt.

What catches my eye with the execution is the combination of embossing and engraving. The engraving is remarkable similar to the style that we often find in old Banyumas pendoks. Very different to both Surakarta and Ngayogyakarta, and nothing at all like the workmanship that can positively be associated with the North Coast.

The embossing is fine, and again, nothing like what we are used to seeing from the North Coast.

Bearing in mind the fact that Banyumas did in fact use a planar hilt form, I feel that this is a point of origin that does bear some consideration.

[Sajen]

Detlef, I am not out to start any sort of controversy in respect of origin of this hilt, I am only putting forward for consideration that which I can see.


I am far away to think like this and I welcome your comment! :)

[Sajen]

In respect of the form, there is no doubt at all that it is a Central Javanese form, however, design and execution of detail do vary from what we are used to seeing in a Surakarta hilt.

What catches my eye with the execution is the combination of embossing and engraving. The engraving is remarkable similar to the style that we often find in old Banyumas pendoks. Very different to both Surakarta and Ngayogyakarta, and nothing at all like the workmanship that can positively be associated with the North Coast.

The embossing is fine, and again, nothing like what we are used to seeing from the North Coast.

Bearing in mind the fact that Banyumas did in fact use a planar hilt form, I feel that this is a point of origin that does bear some consideration.

Hello Alan,

thank you very much for this comment. Since I know that you have seen so much more than I am and have a very good eye for the different styles seems this to be a very good hint for the origin of this hilt. And we know that the ways a keris or parts of it (here a hilt) has gone in it's life can be long it isn't very surprising that this hilt is collect at the North Coast of Java in my opinion, isn't it?

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Where things are collected, most especially keris, cannot be taken as an indication at all of where they were made.

Extreme examples are the keris and pedang and dagger blades that were shipped as items of trade from Jawa to places as far removed as Sri Lanka and India, in the 15th century.

Less extreme examples are the keris blades that have been made in various centers of production since the 18th century and sold in various places right across maritime SE Asia.

What applies to blades can equally apply to items of dress.

[tunggulametung]

I think we can be sure that this particular hilt is collected in Cirebon but as Alan suggested, it might be coming from somewhere else even it is equally possible to be made over there. Banyumas is notable for their silverwork? keris perabot so that might be highly possible as well. The western approximate of modern day Central Java has both influences from Javanese/Sundanese culture. I attached a map so those who isn't familiar with the region might understand what we are talking in here. The question is then once Sunda region is Islamized, what hilt are they wear at wedding and other ceremonies? Raksasa hilt? not likely. Stylized hilt? Maybe, in the 17-19 c. They might keep it as pusaka, or still being made as personal keris hilt, but for public gathering? Those KILTV photos shows a little how nunggak semi hilt is popular in Sunda as early as 19 c. Detlef, I must say I'm not sure where it is made, it might be as far as Banten to Surakarta, so I'm sorry you might consider to change the hilt naming once again ;) :D

Don't forget we have pesisiran Jawa Demam examples as well as Bebondolan and its old style wide gayaman, so influences stretch from Sumatra to Bali; so what make Central Java influence not possible in this case.

I don't know how to put it in English but:
Sometime unavailability is not because it is not existed but because it is not know :D

my two cents opinion :)

[Sajen]

Detlef, I must say I'm not sure where it is made, it might be as far as Banten to Surakarta, so I'm sorry you might consider to change the hilt naming once again ;) :D



Dear Chandra,

tidak ada masalah! (no problem) :D :D

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

Interesting post .....
I would start with trying to determine when and where that type of grip was created. That would give me a clue as to whether it was Soenda or Djawa in origin and whether one culture influenced the other in producing this style.

One musn't forget, as many would argue, that at some time in the past Tatar Soenda south of Mt. Merapi, extended to the western banks of the river Progo (thereby easily taking in Banjoemas).
BTW ..... Banjoemasan is not hard to understand by someone who is fluent in Basa Soenda, which may point to some sort of 'cross-pollination'.

Best,

[A. G. Maisey]

To my knowledge Banyumas was not renowned for silver-work, nor for any other metal work, however old Banyumas pendoks do show a particular type of engraving that is very similar to that which can be seen on this hilt. I've seen the occasional old Jogja hilt with similar work too, but I have never seen it on old Surakarta items, nor on items that were recognised as coming from other areas.

Quite frankly, if this hilt were in my possession I would not give more than two minutes thought to it.

It is an old metal covered hilt in a Central Javanese style.

To me, that would be the end of the story.

To go further is simply too difficult and far too full of hypotheticals to be of any worth at all.

In respect of the form of this hilt, in a broad sense it is undeniably Surakarta, however this form has been copied in other areas --- usually badly --- and a lot of experience is needed to take a good guess at where a less than well executed one of these hilts might have actually been made.

The origin of this specific form of the planar hilt dates back to the partition of Jawa, however, the origins of the planar hilt style are lost in time, and planar hilts clearly existed even before the implosion of Majapahit, not only for keris, but for other weapons and tools as well.It is simply a very practical shape for a handle.

[tunggulametung]

.....old Banyumas pendoks do show a particular type of engraving that is very similar to that which can be seen on this hilt.

.... I've seen the occasional old Jogja hilt with similar work too, but I have never seen it on old Surakarta items, nor on items that were recognised as coming from other areas.

Now you seems very sure that it is Central Java (where form, I'm agree speaking from modern understanding), you mention at first 'no idea at all where it might have been made' then 'very probable Surakarta' (even you note that you are not speaking that it was made in Surakarta) then somehow you associate it with Banyumas given remarkable similar engraving style-and that is very different from Surakarta and Ngayogyakarta. I'm sorry but if you have another two minutes could you please elaborate how such engraving can be positively associated with Banyumas? I thought Banyumas style are more notable for their embossing so I must be wrong in this case so I hope you don't mind to spend another minute or two to enlighten me on how to differentiate Banyumas style pendoks from their Surakarta counterpart in their engraving technique or is it the quality of workmanship that qualify, material or the decoration?

On the occasional jogja hilt with similar work that you refer, is it the work (technique etc), material, decoration or are you try to explain something else in here? Or is it simply Putri Kinurung jogja hilt?

Within my perception nunggak semi hilt is nothing alien in Sunda society (you might want to find some internet photos on some royal Sunda museum collection of Cirebon and Sumedang to illustrate this), and I'm not just speaking about modern day collector who collect just about everything in here. If decoration is important, I can show a very simple hilt where there's no distinct scroll work, mega mendung motif etc needed by a Sundanese to express his work. On the other hand, I can not see how the decoration on Detlef's hilt can be associated with Central Java (other than the overall shape which we all agree) as we in Central Java are crazy about how neat and delicate the cecekan (patra) is etc, a feature usually even missing in Sunda region. I also remember the decoration on the back of the hilt somewhere in a Sundanese sword metal sheath, but I can't remember which piece until now as I've handle quite a few of these. Further the material is not something preferred in Central Java where things, traditionally, doesn't move much from wood or ivory. This is not the case with Sunda. We witness how parallel the West and East Java in terms of hilt variation and examples has been shown by both regions, including the core-metal technique. Also not to forget that many Sunda hilt has a low grade silver or mamas selut which is often poorly done (and very distinct from Surakarta selut), the material is nothing but similar to those I understand as Banyumas pendok.

Thank you in advance for your time.

[A. G. Maisey]

Tunggulametung, I am not in the slightest degree interested in getting into a debate with you, nor anybody else, on where this particular hilt may have been made.

I believe I have made that amply clear in all of my posts.

I just don't care where anybody may attribute the thing to in respect of where it was made, or where it may have been worn.

I have made comments based upon my experience, and I am not about to get into giving tuition on how to tell the difference between Jogja work, Solo work and Banyumas work. Anybody who has regularly handled old pendok from these locations can tell at a glance, anybody who has not will need to look in another direction than me for the necessary education.

I have provided my opinion, accept it, or reject it, I simply do not care.

I suggest you may care to read my post #40 again, and try to understand what I have written.It appears your inability to gain a clear understanding of what I have written is causing you to believe I am interested in engaging in some sort of debate.

I am not.

[tunggulametung]

Tunggulametung, I am not in the slightest degree interested in getting into a debate with you, nor anybody else, on where this particular hilt may have been made.
I'm sorry if you perceive that way but also not my intention. We are here to discuss.

Have a good day :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, that was the way I read your post, but if you say that your intention was not to debate the matter, fair enough, my comment is withdrawn.

However, my position is still the same, in simple terms:-

1)-- the form of this hilt is Central Javanese.

2)-- this form has been associated with Central Jawa since at least the mid- 1700's ( see Jensen)

3)-- it is the Central Javanese form that follows Surakarta form

4)-- it may have been made anywhere

5)-- the line engraving, ( or perhaps the correct term may be incising, as the technique used does not involve cutting, and equally does not involve the embossing process, but rather is carried out by inscribing a line into the surface of the metal with a blunt tool that is pressed and drawn), is similar to that used on old Banyumas pendok; I have not seen this technique used on metal work associated with Surakarta, nor have I seen it on work that can be clearly identified as coming from other areas, but I have seen a few examples on old Jogja pendoks.

6)-- I am not putting forward an opinion on where this hilt may have been made, nor am I putting forward an opinion where it may have been worn, nor am I providing a hypothesis on the conditions under which it may have been worn. I have made a number of comments that are based upon my personal experience, and the opinion given relates to the similarity of workmanship in this hilt with the workmanship to be found in old Banyumas pendok, it also relates to the form of the hilt.

Do not interpret these very limited opinions to construe more than they are intended to construe.

[tunggulametung]

Well yes it is a discussion forum and not a debate forum but debate or let say argument is integral part of discussion so often we don't realize however it is an important aspect to build a good discussion ;)

Great, thank you for your reply. I guess it is because from how I learn Banyumas pendok usually come in emboss work and attribute more engrave/incise to Surakarta (other than emboss) but be sure I'm telling the truth when I'm saying often lost on how they differ even though I have handle many Central Java pendoks (not that regularly though). I don't count Jogja on this statement because most of the time I'm confidence I can tell when it is Jogja.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, Solo work is certainly engraved, even though we mostly see Solo embossed pendoks, these are made for Solo, not made in Solo, the reason being purely economic, as even the lowest priced Solo engraved pendok is quite expensive.

I suspect that we're possibly getting a little bit of confusion in terminology here Tunggulametung. The Banyumas technique that I have referred to as "engraved", or "incised", you may well be thinking of in terms of "embossed".

I have seen all three of these techniques carried out. Engraving uses gravers --- little chisels --- driven by hand and hammer. Embossing uses punches driven by hammer. The Banyumas technique uses a blunt scriber that is drawn over the face of the metal and leaves a line, it does not remove metal, but leaves an impressed line.To my knowledge this technique has not been used commercially for a very long time.

However, all of this is neither here nor there:- the work on the hilt looks like Banyumas pendok work, no matter how it was done. The embossing in the cecekan panel has obviously been executed by a different technique, and it is not this work that is under discussion, but the ornamentation on the planes.

[David]

Just a word or two here on the subject gentlemen. As i see it we are clearly here to "discuss". For me at least the word "debate" implies a more aggressive approach as in debate the debater is generally trying his best to WIN his argument. I see no necessity for such a "victory" in our discussions on these boards. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

My point exactly David. I agree wholeheartedly.

I read Tunggulametung's post # 41 as being presented in the style of debate, he assured me that my interpretation was incorrect, and I accept his assurance.

[tunggulametung]

Thanks David, it is clear that I need to learn how to compose a better English sentences when seeking for answer/confirmation in a discussion board ;) Again not my intention to debate or win my argument although it may sounded in such a way, I might don't realize it the time I compose my post. I apologize to Alan and all the readers should they might sounded harsh in the way they were presented.

A note for Alan:
I suspect that we're possibly getting a little bit of confusion in terminology here Tunggulametung. The Banyumas technique that I have referred to as "engraved", or "incised", you may well be thinking of in terms of "embossed".

No I understand how they differ. I'm trying to say in my previous post that I learn the way Banyumas pendok done were more in emboss and not engraved/incised but chances I get mixed with Surakarta pendok as there are many times when I can not tell how they differ. But perhaps we should save that for another discussion as we are here to discuss a hilt ;)

Anyway, just like Alan, I think I have note down all things I know and should anybody want to suggest his opinion shall this thread back to the subject as it was first intended by the thread starter :)

Thank you

[A. G. Maisey]

I know that this thread is about a hilt, but it seems that we have been drawn into discussion of the different types of techniques that have been used to make pendok coming from differing locations.

I hope that the accompanying photos, although not of particularly good quality, will be adequate to illustrate the differences we have been talking about.

Photo 'A' is of four old Banyumas pendok that have had the motif applied by what I shall call incising; 'B' is a close up of one of those pendok. The technique was demonstrated to me perhaps 20 years ago by a craftsman who was well known within the keris trade and almost unknown outside the trade, a man who was the descendant of a line of craftsmen who had worked in the keris trade in Yogyakarta:- Bp. Pawirodihardjo, AKA Pak Walijo. He also identified this pendok style as Banyumas. The ones shown are poor examples of low quality, and in some cases have had the curve at the top flattened, so that they could be fitted to Surakarta wrongkos. Pak Walijo passed away some years ago, but his legacy will be with us for a long time to come.

Photo 'C' is a fair quality embossed Banyumas pendok in silver, 'D' is a close up.

Photo 'E' is a new Surakarta pendok with engraved motif, 'F' is a close up.

Photo 'G' is a Yogyakarta pendok with incised motif, 'H' is a close up.

The Banyumas pendok form, as explained to me by Pak Walijo, is similar to the Surakarta form but has a curved top and in some cases a lis (collar) fitted to that curved top.

I most earnestly hope that these photos clarify what I have been trying to explain.

[tunggulametung]

Spot on! Example C is what I'm trying to explain in my previous post. That collar type might be one of the good hint then. Thank you for providing the examples I know I can learn from you! :)

I should have look more into example A (this is where I mixed), but just to share a view (as how you mention they are often made for Surkarta), I know for once they are supplied from Jogja (recent made) but that just one time experience and may not the case in the past or all the time and if I remember correct that is one with flat/angled opening (not curved).

Thanks again.

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm not all that sure that a lis can be taken as a definite Banyumas origin indicator, as Madura and North Coast pendok also are sometimes found with lis.

The relationship between Banyumas and Solo pendok is that old Banyumas pendok have often been squared off at the top so that they can be used on a Solo wrongko.

Most affordable recently made pendok come from Imogiri, and are embossed. They are supplied in all styles and sold wherever keris are sold.

[tunggulametung]

I'm not all that sure that a lis can be taken as a definite Banyumas origin indicator, as Madura and North Coast pendok also are sometimes found with lis.

Yes I'm aware of that. Thank you for your note :)

[Sajen]

Thank you all very much for this very interesting discussion! :)