black sea yataghan

[Miyamoto]

Hi to everyone!

I've found that forum just today and I'm impressed.
I'm from Slovenia (central Europe) and I'm a collector of mostly japanese blades, but I like also all other quality blades... Unfortuantelly I'm not (yet) an expert on the other that field of collecting.

Personally I think that the Black sea style blade is the most sugestible and why not, the most beautiful shape of blade ever created (well exept nihonto blades, naturally)
Do you agree?
Have any in your collection?
If so, I'd really appreciate to see the fotos!

I have just that one. What do you think about it?
I'd like to buy another of thoose, so I like to have a pair to cross them over the wall. What are approximately the value for such pieces nowadays?

[wolviex]

Hello and welcome to this Forum :). We all are impressed of knowledge you can find here.

I can't say anything about yataghans, Ariel is one of the members with great knowledge about these weapons, but here you can find some old threads with discussions about them :)


http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002118.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001960.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002445.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002445.html

Link 5 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31)

[Miyamoto]

Hi Wolviex,

Thanks a lot!

WOW! Tha was some interensting reading... Great discussion! :)

[fearn]

Hi Miyamoto,

Welcome! I'm surprised that the moderators haven't said anything, but we don't give appraisals here.

Otherwise, the black sea yataghans have been a topic of much discussion, as you've found out. It will be interesting to see what Ariel has to say.

F

[ariel]

Well, it's nice to enjoy the status of the "authority in the field", even though my only contribution to it was a short visit to the Askeri Muze in Istanbul and posting here what the local people knew for a long, long time.....
This is a strange weapon. It is so decorative that it is almost useless as a fighting implement. It reminds me of African swords: too artistic to be of real use. Not for nothing did Lazes use large kindjals as well.
Lazes are descendants of the Byzanthinians who established the Trabzon Empire in 1241 under the leadership of the grandsons of Andronicus I and were (and still are!) called Romei. They were conquered by the Ottomans in 1461 and were converted to Islam (likely, voluntarily, since the Ottoman Turks were remarkably liberal about religious beliefs of their subjects). Nevertheless, Lazes did not enjoy great reputation.
I'd like to cite some info from the book of G.E. Vvedensky "The Janissaries" (St. Petersburg, 2003). In it he cites a book "The history of the Janissaries corps" published in Moscow in 1987 (it was translated, but he never mentioned the original). To be fully politically correct, I would like to say that I do not want to insult anybody. Please, do not kill the messenger.

" It was against the law to recruit Trabzonians into the Janissari units.This is why: not only the depravity of Trabzonians exceeds anything imaginable, not a single Zaim or Sipakhi among them ever exhibited any bravery or gallantry. They committed only deception and evil".
Sultan Selim I ruled in Trabzon between 1512 to 1520 and, according to his own experience, ordered to recruit them into the Janissari units as informers to prevent rebellions.
" The Trabzonians are evil people,deceivers by nature. As soon as one of them enters, it becomes impossible for 4-5 janissaries to get together. With time, their lying nature became obvious and well known and the very name Laz caused just laughter"
As a matter of fact, people who could swindle the entire Ottoman Empire must have been a fine breed: kind of Good Soldier Svejk with luxurious moustaches and a fez. Next time I go to Turkey, I shall do my best to go to Trabzon and have a glass of Yeni Raki with a local smuggler!

[ham]

Gentlemen,

I take strong exception to the preceding response. Due perhaps to a lack of actual knowledge, it completely diverges from the discussion of a little-known type of weapon, and instead revels in the banalities of ethnic slurs-- despite disclaimers to the contrary, it is not in the slightest germane to the question, nor is it appropriate to this forum, particularly in response to the earnest query of a new member. I think Ariel owes the Forum, and its multiethnic membership, an apology.
The Black Sea yatagan is a fine piece of design work which is entirely effective for its purpose-- i.e., a close-range cutting weapon. It's popularity shows a distinctly high correlation among warlike peoples who, for a variety of reasons, tended to do battle on foot rather than horseback.
It is eminently suited to the drawcut, for which the saber was used extensively in the Iranian and Ottoman empires by mounted troops; here we have the next degree of development: a simpler weapon to produce than a saber, the compactness and curvature of which required a far shorter arc to swing. This was capable of delivering blows with devastating effect-- even on foot. This should be apparent to anyone who has had the opportunity to swing one of these swords (rather than attempting to thrust with it.) Further, its thickness allowed it to cut through even the heavy goathair cloaks worn throughout Eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus.
Regarding raki: a forum member once said, de gustibus non est disputandum... a phrase which in this case is best translated as "there is no accounting for taste"-- IMHO if one hasn't tried Tekir Dag, one hasn't truly had raki.

Sincerely,

Ham

[ariel]

I did not intend to offend anybody and just cited some information from a respectable book dedicated to the history of the Ottoman military system. The accounts of the ancient travellers and the local lore are germane to our discussions with full understanding that some may be just prejuduces and slurs. If anybody got offended by these quotations, I readily and immediately apologize although I was not their author.
Black Sea Yataghan (or Laz Bicagi) is one of my favourites, but it is far too fancy for real fights: its point is too thin and bendable, its curvature makes no sense (except from purely esthetic point of view) and requires incredibly bulky scabbard, its balance is atrocious (second only to Flyssa), and its pommel does not allow for wrist movements. It is neither a cavalry weapon nor a close encounter infantry blade. No swordsman in his right mind would choose it if a Kindjal or Shashka were available. But... it is beautiful, no doubt about it!
As to raki.... Ham, sorry to disappoint you, but no Turkish Raki or its Greek equvalent, Ouzo, can compare to Lebanese Arak from Zahle.

[Ahriman]

..?
I mean, how thin is "too thin"? 1-2mm at the foible is absolutely enough (in my experience, at least) for cleaving through meat and thinner bones without bending... and if you do a little calculation, you'll see that most european cutting blades (sorry for always using them as examples) have a thickness at about that at the foible, even as they were needed to face rigid plate defense. After all, why would it be called "foible"? :)
Balance: I didn't have a chance to wield one so far, but I don't think that it'd have a worse balance than my training swords... 50cm from the quillon for a 110cm "blade", overall weight being 12 kg... It strenghtens the wrist quite well... after that, anything lighter or better balanced will feel like feathers. And I think that a more forward balance point will do better for slashes, just as in the case of machetes.
When I was practising in a gladiator school as a dimacheris (two-sworder), I used almost exactly the same blade shape, with forward balance... They were good for me.

Pommel: A question has arised in me. Isn't it possible that they used the same "thumb grip" as the europeans? I mean, there are a few cuts (zwerchau and krumphau) where you "turn" the hilt with 90° in your hands, so the long edge is to the left, while the short is to the right.
In the case of yataghans, it would place the point to the "outside" and the edge to the "inside".
The question came from the posted picture. It looks like that the hilt is wider in the "wrong" direction... so it would be comfortable if you grip it in the thumb grip... so with extended arms the blade would be paralell to the ground. This way, you could use it either for cutting or thursting... try doing a few zwerchauen with it... it would make descending cuts more difficult, but not impossible, while making ascending cuts easier and faster, and making it possible to use the zwerch, which can instantly stop a descending cut while killing the opponent...
And you could use it for bashing thrusts aside. Imagine a low or central straight thrust coming towards you for sake of simplicity. If you make a wipe with the blade, you'll have the point at about the groin of the attacker. A little upward wrist move... Btw, this is almost the krumphau. And you can take out most strikes with it.

Sorry for the long post, I could tell you the same in about 2-3 sentences in my native language... If you can't understand, I can shot a few videos showing my idea. Or if I'm talking absolute idiotisms, or something that is well-known already, tell me, and shoot me down. :D

[Rivkin]

Dear All,

I have no objections to Ariel's citations - indeed when reading ancient and not so ancient sources one finds rather generalized depictions of nations. I'm not the most very sensitive man. There are two points I would like to emphasize here. Laz is a western georgian subethnicity. Laz language is very similar to megrelian (margali). As all western georgian kingdoms, Trabzon empire was founded under the heavy influence and colonization of greeks. During its existance it declared its origins to be the roman empire, and therefore was often called the same way everyone from Greece to Anatolia was called now and then - awlad-al Rum, Rumla etc.

Concerning the military capabilities they were recruited into mamluk core, in less numbers than megrels per se, but mostly due to the fact that megrels paid tributes in slaves to surrounding muslim kingdoms and their princes, Dadiani were known for pathological cruelty and slave trade. However, Laz traditionally have been recruited by Ottoman navy.

There are 4 georgian tribes that fell under the rule of islamic - mesh', laz, fedaryn (captives in iran) and parts of adjars. Laz have been the first, and they are the most islamized and assilimilated (turkisized) nation. Today most of them identify themselves as turks.

Concerning "deception and evil". Among some people (in particular eastern georgians), megrels in general are called ... "jews". The perception is that they are smarter than neighbors and traditionally, rather than joining up cavalry units, they act as spies, informants, torturers and assasins. Late Beria was a megrel (even through Stalin preferred Guria), and so were many of middleeastern dictators - Ali-Bey, Ibrahim-Bey, Murad-Bey. Among megrels themselves such depiction oftenly is not considered to be something shameful, despite two other things to which they traditionally tie themselves - mamluk service and the navy.

Concerning Laz I did hear such depictions indeed. I also heard (in masses) anecdotes about Laz in which they were portrayd as a nation of mafia, song-writing and dumbness. Laz themselves, on the contrary, often believe to possess superior bravery and viciousness in comparison with turks.

If you want my personal view, these generalized depictions have really not much to do with the reality, but knowing them in the historical context can be rather interesting, since in old times jobs were given to people based on perception of their race, rather than on individual abilities (and btw this did not change much).

[Tim Simmons]

I am surprised this has not been brought to attention earlier. This picture is from. "Islamic Weapons, Maghrib to Moghul" by Anthony C Tirri, in this book the weapon is attributed to Algeria/Egypt. I think he is correct as the leatherwork is so clearly North African. Some way from the Black Sea I think? Tim

[ariel]

Tim:
This peculiar sword had been variously attributed to N. Africa and even Indonesia (By Hermann Historica, no less!).
However, the Askeri Muze in Istanbul has several of them and the curator there told me that it was a well known Ottoman sword called Laz Bicagi.
Second, look at the picture:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31&highlight=black
No doubt what it is!
I agree that the forte looks just like Algerian Flyssa and the leatherwork like a Sudanese Gile, but.... This is a classic example of a mistaken identity; it teaches us that superficial similarities do not establish provenance.
Ahriman:
I handled quite a lot of them. The point is very, very thin, almost needle-like and I saw several with bent points.
The forked pommels break easily (see the original picture in this thread). Also, the horns protrude so much that wrist bending is almost impossible: worse than tulwars with oversized dish pommels. As a former fencer (foil and saber), I could not wield it with ease no matter what kind of grip I used. On the other hand, since these swords were primarily "pirate" type weapons (that's what Lazes did on top of smuggling) they were sure scary! As a psychological warfare these swords were great but technologically they were less than adequate.

[Tim Simmons]

How right you are. What a shame Mr Tirri should get something like this so wrong. Those pictures show wonderfull plain working weapons, thanks Tim.

[Rivkin]

The first time I saw this guy I thought "what a weird manding/sudanese sabre" :)

[Mark]

How right you are. What a shame Mr Tirri should get something like this so wrong. Those pictures show wonderfull plain working weapons, thanks Tim.

Tony supports his N. African provenance theory with a number of features from a number of pieces, so its not really unsupported in terms or argument (he gave a very interesting talk on it at the EEWRS dinner a couple years back). His position is, as Ariel points out, the subject of debate, and certainly based on empirical observation and deduction rather than historical or local information.

There are some ways to reconcile the two, for example taking into account that Ottoman troops may have brought it with them to places like Egypt during the Ottoman Empire period, or influence going the other way via trade or population movement. I think one unanswered question is how far back the style goes, which is always an interesting question to me, as it can open up possiblities of cross-cultural influence, or exclude others that would have post-dated the earliest appearance of the style (for example in this case, if it predates Ottoman presence in N. Africa).

[Rivkin]

I was told that this weapon is specifically associated with Laz pirates.

[Mark]

Please remember that this thread is about the sword, not the history of ethnic groups in Asia Minor.

I am following the thread closely, and be advised that if the Laz "issue" gets out of hand (as it has once before) I am going to drop a hammer on all involved. The editorializing has really reached the limits of permissible discussion here, and bans will be issued if necessary.

The Moderogre

[Rivkin]

..., its thickness allowed it to cut through even the heavy goathair cloaks worn throughout Eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus.

You mean burka ? I was taught that burka was mainly worn as a protection against arrows... It was somewhat effective against cuts due to the fact that burka is usually a few sizes bigger than the one who wears it.

Concerning the use of laz bicaqi I always thought it was basically a maritime, boarding weapon...

[ham]

Gentlemen,

A colleague at the EEWRS meeting kindly lent me the printed material which Mr. Tirri passed out in support of his proposed North African attribution to this type of sword shortly after it took place. It has been a while but as I recall, Tirri's arguments were based upon 2 points: a formal relationship between the Black Sea yatagan and the flyssa (he argued that one was derived from the other, I think it was that the yatagan came from the flyssa), failing to note that both are just provincial developments off the yataghan which likely occurred coevally, one in North Africa and the other in the Transcaucasus. Secondly, he compared the decorative characteristics which generally appear on flyssas with those on a particular Black Sea yatagan in his possession-- the only one I've ever seen with such designs-- it almost certainly was decorated in North Africa. This was a more defensible point that his first, however his conclusion was marred by the fact that he could produce but a single example in support of it. As Mark says however, the range of the Ottoman military was considerable; this type of sword could easily have found its way from Eastern Anatolia to the African Provinces. In any case, Tirri deserves credit for his research as well as for putting forth an original thesis.

Ariel, regarding your observations above:

"I handled quite a lot of them. The point is very, very thin, almost needle-like and I saw several with bent points.
The forked pommels break easily (see the original picture in this thread). Also, the horns protrude so much that wrist bending is almost impossible: worse than tulwars with oversized dish pommels. As a former fencer (foil and saber), I could not wield it with ease no matter what kind of grip I used. On the other hand, since these swords were primarily "pirate" type weapons (that's what Lazes did on top of smuggling) they were sure scary! As a psychological warfare these swords were great but technologically they were less than adequate."

In the simplest terms, you are comparing apples and oranges. If, as you say, your practical experience with edged weapons is limited to fencing-- a sport so highly conventionalized that any beginner knows it is remote even from the use of rapier and smallsword whence it derives, and one designed for use with very specific equipment NOT intended for cutting-- then any pronouncement you make on the use of weapons other than the foil or saber, i.e. the Black Sea yatagan, the tulwar, or for that matter anything designed for use with the drawcut is, regretably, invalid.
Relative rigidity in the wrist was key to the effective use of these weapons, which is why their pommels were prominent in one way or another. The stroke was accomplished primarily with the shoulder and elbow in a quick drawing motion across the body-- Stone mentions this under his entry on shamshirs, pg. 550. Having done much of his research in situ over a century ago, Stone was fortunate enough to witness many of these weapons in actual use-- and while those days have passed, we can benefit from his observations as well as those of others who were able to do so. I often wonder why students and collectors so rarely do.
As far as broken ears and bent tips, who can say whether these come from use or misuse over time? Concrete, little boys, adults after one too many beers, and power tools are the recognized nemeses of old swords, you know.

Rivkin-- Yes, I was referring to the burka, a singularly impermeable and exceptionally warm, if generally odiferous, garment.

Sincerely,

Ham

[Ahriman]

I was just about to write about that "sport" thing Ham mentioned... so now, I won't. :)
Just one thing. We, hungarians, used mostly sabers, especially after 1500. One of our warrior-poets, Balint Balassi, who died from a leg-removing nice little cannonball, had a gothic gauntlet recordedly. Gothic gauntlets don't really allow much wrist movement, just up and down and rotation. And of course, a bit sideway movement, but very little, especially if worn with vambraces. Later gauntlets allowed even less sideway movement.
And yet, Balassi was a sabre-user, and a good one, if the records are true. :)

Ham, is there anything worth considering in my crazy theory, or is it just another piece of my idiotism?

[ham]

Ahriman,

Not idiotic at all, sounds quite consistent with the use of the saber in Eastern Europe. Why not experiment a bit in honor of Balassi and let us know. But you'd best hurry, his birthday is next week!

Sincerely,

Ham

[Aqtai]

Tony supports his N. African provenance theory with a number of features from a number of pieces, so its not really unsupported in terms or argument (he gave a very interesting talk on it at the EEWRS dinner a couple years back). His position is, as Ariel points out, the subject of debate, and certainly based on empirical observation and deduction rather than historical or local information.

There are some ways to reconcile the two, for example taking into account that Ottoman troops may have brought it with them to places like Egypt during the Ottoman Empire period, or influence going the other way via trade or population movement. I think one unanswered question is how far back the style goes, which is always an interesting question to me, as it can open up possiblities of cross-cultural influence, or exclude others that would have post-dated the earliest appearance of the style (for example in this case, if it predates Ottoman presence in N. Africa).

This makes sense to me. Many of the best Ottoman troops in the 18th and early 19th century were "irregular" units who used their own traditional weapons and clothing. I wouldn't be surbrised if Laz units were stationed in Egypt or North Africa. After all Muhammad Ali Pasha who was Ottoman Governer of Egypt in the early 19th century and went on to become virtual dictator of Egypt, started his career as an officer in an Albanian "irregular" Unit, and he relied heavily on his fellow "Arna'ut" during his rise to power. On a another completetly unrelated (and slightly daft) side issue, that sword does bear a striking resemblence to the Ancient Egyptian khopesh...

[Mark]

On a another completetly unrelated (and slightly daft) side issue, that sword does bear a striking resemblence to the Ancient Egyptian khopesh...

Actually, I think that very point was raised in an early discussion of black sea yataghans on the old UBB forum. I don't think anyone ran with it, but I do see the similarity (except for the pommel).

[ariel]

Ham,
The only thing I can advise you is to get a full-size Laz Bicagi and try to wield it in any way you wish (sa long as it is far from your nose...). After that do the same with kinjal and shashka.
Then you will understand.
BTW, was gauntlet sword (see above) reminescent of Pata?

[Ahriman]

I have an idea, Ariel. Send me pictures, good, close pictures of a simple black sea yataghan with quite exact sizes. As both my ex and current girlfriend, and my best friend, and me myself like the shape, I'll have to make one soon.
So I'll make the sword by the sent parameters soon after receiving them. And sharpen it fully, of course. And do a little test-cutting, both with hacking cuts and with draw cuts on a nice big piece of meat. If I can cut down to the upper area of the bone with the draw-cut, and if I can repeat it three times, we won. If not, then choose any simple, undecorated piece of armour, I'll make it for free. But if we won, I'll hand over the sword to my ex-girlfriend... and if even she can cut down to the bone (not into it, she's rather weak nowadays), we'll get the original sword. Deal? :D
BTW, test-cutting on meat is a very good thing. It won't dull your blades much, and you'll have an idea of their cutting power. I could almost behead a hog with one strike with my old dopplehander. A dead hog, of course. Mostly dieing from sickness, so it was free prey to our blades. :)
("Almost" means that I mostly use zornhauen with huge swords... so the lying hog's skull's lower area stopped the cut after travelling several inches in it after getting in from almost the back. The spine was cleaved through anyway.)

BTW, I think it bears more similarity with the greek version. Lighter blade, though. And it's similar to a few acinaces' as well.

[Rivkin]

ISo I'll make the sword by the sent parameters soon after receiving them. And sharpen it fully, of course. And do a little test-cutting, both with hacking cuts and with draw cuts on a nice big piece of meat. If I can cut down to the upper area of the bone with the draw-cut, and if I can repeat it three times, we won...BTW, test-cutting on meat is a very good thing. It won't dull your blades much, and you'll have an idea of their cutting power. I could almost behead a hog with one strike with my old dopplehander. A dead hog, of course.

A good and thin metal string or lancet will cut meat far better than any hand and a half sword... Does not mean they are good weapons.

[ariel]

Ahriman,
Dead hogs do not strike back (ex-girlfriends and, especially, ex-wives, do).
I'll make you another deal: make yourself a copy of Laz Bicagi including the horned pommel; I'll get a shashka and we fence. Whoever wins, takes the opponent to the ER.
Trust me, the range of movements for Laz Bicagi is so limited and awkward, I'll be the driver at the end....
I tried just now to strike a tree branch (very thin, of course) with it . The curvature is so crazy that I couldn't judge the distance and the horned pommel got tangled in my sleeve. It is just not a very good weapon, although it is very show-y and exotic.
If we think about it, there are very few basic forms of fighting blades all over the world. Just from experience people of different cultures ended up with similar ideas: curved for slashing, straight for stabbing ,recurved for extra slashing force and some stabbing etc. Laz Bichagi stands unique and for a good reason.

[Miyamoto]

WOOW!

I went out fishing a couple of days and look here what an interesting debate we have! :D

Thank you guys for sharing information!

Geographikal origin: I think, after reading all that opinions and after seeing all that evidences that it has to be Ottoman Black Sea region, intended for ship boarding.

Power: I'm a kendo and iaido student and I own a black sea yathagan, so I can tell you from the first hand. It is really terrbile to handle, just believe Ariel and me. Not balanced, difficult to draw from scabbard, difficult to yudge the distance, ecc. Give me a katana (or even a Wakizashi) and I'll be able to kill almost instantly the bastard who'd be so stupidly brave to challenge me. Metaforically speaking, I intend. :D

ORIGINS: It is really unapropried for combat either from horse or ground. I think that it originated from classic yatagan, wich from my point of view is verry unapropriate for close combat in small crowded areas like a ship would be with all that balustrades, railings, cords, masts ecc. They just added a curvature to enhance the rebounding, recoiling action of the weapon against various obsatcles. Just think of a combat in a small corridor... With an ordinary yathagan will stick to the wall and the warrior instantly killed. For fighting in areas full of obstacles a weapon has to have different point compatred to a classic yataghan, so the warrior could make stabbing actions also. Just think for a moment that you are in a middle of combat on sea and tha you have to cut a rope avoidng to hit the mast? With all other longlike weapons would be nearly impossible. All the facts supports the piracy proposal of that weapon. Another fact supporting that teory is that it is a verry rare weapon. Limited usage - limited production. Kinjals I think were to heavy and also the combat style, wich take a lot of space were inapropriate for ship boarding. The shashka being a cavalry rather long sword was also unapropriate.


Another thing: Some of them really could be north african origin. Look, being used by sailors, and beeing so apropriate for naval boardings it makes a perfect weapon for such purpose, wich was maybe copied in shape by local smiths in the ports around the whole meditteranean area. The knopesh (a verry different usage, more like a sickle) and especially the flissa (what it has rally in common???) have really nothing to do with it.

About pommel: The two horned pommel has obviously a purpose. I think that it derives from classic yataghan pommel. Thoose tho horns, from my point of view, is also an extreme close cobat solution for attacking the eyes of an enemy wich has came too close for slashing or stabbing him.

So we have here, what i think, a perfect boarding weapon in all of its aspects. (wich is obviously extremly unapropriate for all other kinds of usage)

Regarding my previous topic: I'd really wanto to buy another one with or without the scabbard. Ariel? ;)

[Miyamoto]

Well, that's only my deductions, any comments?

[ariel]

The blade geographically closest to Laz Bicagi is Surmene knife (town of Surmene close to Trabzon).
There were two interesting offerings on ebay recently.
First, this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6571480362&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Please notice swelling of the middle section of the scabbard: just the same idea as Laz Bicagi in the original post

Second, a couple of knives with typical multifullered Surmene blades. The single scabbard is rather neat: just like some Chinese weapons or a pair of Persian swords in Topkapi.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6568852871&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

[Jeff D]

Hi All,

I brought up this old thread because I might have some new data. I recently bought this lovely Black Sea yataghan from a fellow forumite. It has a Gregorian date of 1888 on it as well as a Islamic date. 1888 converts to the Hijri date of 1305 or 1306. As can be seen the 1 and the 0 are typical Arabic numbers but the 3 and the 5/6 appear unusual. Is this a local variation that might help place its origin?

All the Best
Jeff

[Zifir]

Hi,

The arabic date seems to me as 1303 which can be correctly converted as 1885-1886.

However, from 1840 onwards the Ottomans started to use a second calendar which was called the Rumi calendar. The basic aim was to use a calendar which was compatible with the European calendar. Anyway, if your date is a Rumi date, then its Gregorian equivalent is 1887-1888.

best,

[Jeff D]

Thank you Zfir !!!

I know the Ottomans switched to a Julian (Solar) Moslem calender in the early part of the 19th century (to try to correlate with the Julian Gregorian European calendar) but I had no idea what it was called or if it was close to the Hijri (lunar) calandar.

The number 3 is unusal here, is this script used in any particular portion of the Ottoman empire?

Thank you again
Jeff

[Zifir]

The unusual style of the number '3' in the date may have something to do with workmanship. Because, the same is true for the Gregorian date 1888 on the sword. Very weird 8's indeed :D I think the same think is valid for the numbers in the Hijri date.

[Jeff D]

Thank you again Zifir,

I am a little confused. Is the Arabic number three used here common? I am used to seeing it written as below.

You are right about the 8's I actually found the Islamic date first and it took a while to figure out that the 8's made a Gregorian date :D Duh :D

All the best
Jeff

[Zifir]

In hand writing, the numbers 2 and 3 have slightly different forms. I attached two examples, the first one is 9240 and the second one is 33,600. You can see how the numbers 2 and 3 in handwriting are different than their printed forms. I hope this helps.

Best,

[Jeff D]

Hi Zifir,

Yes this does help. Essentially, this "written" script of 3 could come from any where the Rumi calendar, was used. Unfortunately it doesn't particularly add anything to what has already been noted on the origin of the Black Sea yataghan.

Thank you once again it is great to have your imput.

Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

It is amazing how long this discussion of these 'Black Sea' yataghans has continued, especially the 'controversy' over thier origins. The evidence for origin in North Africa consists of the single example presented in Mr. Tirri's book, which as mentioned, was discussed at the talk presented by him several years ago. This theory was supported by a caption in a Michael German catalog from London, which had suggested a North African origin without corroborating support, as well as an entry from I believe a Russian book suggesting the same.

I began studying these curious yataghans in 1996 when I acquired my first example. Back then these were actually considered relatively rare, and there was considerable speculation about them. I discovered that they had been shown in the equally rare German publication "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Seifert, a prominant German arms scholar, in 1962. They were identified there as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans, and in subsequent communications with the author I found that his attribution had derived from a scholarly article written in 1941 and presented by the Danish Arms and Armour Society. References for this article derived further from a Hungarian arms scholar who had travelled in regions of the Black Sea, Caucusus etc. in the latter 19th century. These weapons were provenanced from Turkish regions c.1850's, and I did confirm thier presence and dates collected in the museum listed in communications with that museum.
After several years of confirming this data, communications with various authors and scholars, in later years these weapons were confirmed in museums in Istanbul by Lee Jones, then of course, the ultimate confirmation by Ariel in his discovery and positive identification to the Laz group.
It seems more than dozens of these have now entered collections, most associated with those found in regions described near Trans-Caucasian regions including Trebizon, Erlikan and the Caucusus.
I was also present at the forementioned talk given by Mr. Tirri in Baltimore, which was indeed very well presented. My only question was...if this sword form originated in North Africa....why was there only one left.....with all the others migrating to the regions near the Black Sea?
While the evidence supporting North African origin is admittedly compelling since it does resemble a flyssa, I am more drawn to the evidence that I discovered in the years I have researched these. I think that with the movement of Ottoman mercenaries from these regions to North Africa, an example of these being subsequently decorated there with flyssa type motif is quite plausible.

Yet the debate will undoubtedly continue.:)
Best regards,
Jim

[Jeff D]

It is amazing how long this discussion of these 'Black Sea' yataghans has continued, especially the 'controversy' over thier origins. The evidence for origin in North Africa consists of the single example presented in Mr. Tirri's book, which as mentioned, was discussed at the talk presented by him several years ago. This theory was supported by a caption in a Michael German catalog from London, which had suggested a North African origin without corroborating support, as well as an entry from I believe a Russian book suggesting the same.

I began studying these curious yataghans in 1996 when I acquired my first example. Back then these were actually considered relatively rare, and there was considerable speculation about them. I discovered that they had been shown in the equally rare German publication "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Seifert, a prominant German arms scholar, in 1962. They were identified there as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans, and in subsequent communications with the author I found that his attribution had derived from a scholarly article written in 1941 and presented by the Danish Arms and Armour Society. References for this article derived further from a Hungarian arms scholar who had travelled in regions of the Black Sea, Caucusus etc. in the latter 19th century. These weapons were provenanced from Turkish regions c.1850's, and I did confirm thier presence and dates collected in the museum listed in communications with that museum.
After several years of confirming this data, communications with various authors and scholars, in later years these weapons were confirmed in museums in Istanbul by Lee Jones, then of course, the ultimate confirmation by Ariel in his discovery and positive identification to the Laz group.
It seems more than dozens of these have now entered collections, most associated with those found in regions described near Trans-Caucasian regions including Trebizon, Erlikan and the Caucusus.
I was also present at the forementioned talk given by Mr. Tirri in Baltimore, which was indeed very well presented. My only question was...if this sword form originated in North Africa....why was there only one left.....with all the others migrating to the regions near the Black Sea?
While the evidence supporting North African origin is admittedly compelling since it does resemble a flyssa, I am more drawn to the evidence that I discovered in the years I have researched these. I think that with the movement of Ottoman mercenaries from these regions to North Africa, an example of these being subsequently decorated there with flyssa type motif is quite plausible.

Yet the debate will undoubtedly continue.:)
Best regards,
Jim

Thank you Jim,

Sorry about my slow response, I did try to respond a couple times before taking off to the islands for the last month where we have no internet. I was able to get some much required reading done and unfortunetly was unable to find much on the Rumi calendar. I was able to find that the Ottoman calendar based on the sun cycle was called the Maliye calendar and that the later part of 1303 Maliye was infact 1888 Gregorian.
I think my recent yataghan therefore supports your and the other's conclusion to the Ottoman Black Sea origin for these weapons. The Ottomans were pretty much out of North Africa by this time.

Thanks again for the references
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jeff,
Nicely done, thanks very much for the additional information and support!
:)
All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Here is a little more on this topic. This just ended on e-bay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140029461755&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Fcgiurl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.co m%252Fws%252F%26fkr%3D1%26from%3DR8%26satitle%3D14 0029461755%2509%26category0%3D%26fvi%3D1
Anybody recognize the style of dress?

I will post the card below for posterity.

All the best
Jeff

[ariel]

I think you got it!
The boy on the left is holding BSY (Laz Bicagi) vertically and the one in the middle seems to have the same one stuck under the belt: only handle is visible).
Too bad the pic is small! Perhaps, we can contact the buyer and offer him a deal: he will send us larger views and we shall tell him where it is from . Not a bad deal for him, I think :)

[Rick]

Is this any improvement ?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/joeconrad/Turkish-yataghan.jpg

[Mark]

I looks to me that all of that central group are holding laz bicagi, except the fellow whose crotch is bisected by the upright one. They seem to be children, in fact. This might explain the "baby" laz bicagi that one sees.

[Yannis]

The dresses and the music instrument of the musicians and dancers group it is Pontic, a Greek minority of Turkey. But maybe it could be worn from another ethnic group too.

[ariel]

Here are Ajarians: next-door neighbours of Minghrelians ( Georgian Laz)
http://www.answers.com/topic/ajarians

[Zifir]

http://www.karalahana.com/english/archive/music.html

I think it's the same picture...

[Zifir]

And here is another one..

[Yannis]

I just add 2 pictures of Pontic or Pontian people to see the similarities. But I have never heard that this yataghan was their weapon. They used bitsaqs and kinjals

[Yannis]

Well, after all these years that we are looking for clues about Black Sea yataghan, I feel quit stupid I didn’t look closer to my culture!
The pictures of Zifir are very clear. If they lived in Trabzon (Trebizond or Trapezus) they must be Pontians. Or Lazs, but no Ajarians.

[ariel]

And here is another one..
This is the best one.
But, honestly, we are seeing 3 variants of the same picture!
The color one was heavily photoshopped, though.
Trabzon is clearly indicated as the locality.
Laz!

[Jeff D]

Well Done Guys!!

I think we can clearly place the Laz with this weapon.


Jeff

[Rivkin]

The dress and musical instruments are common to Western Georgians and all other Pontic nations, including Greeks; I would guess these can be Greeks, but I would think Laz is a more likely option. Finally, the border between Georgia and Turkey, which separates Laz and Adjari was established in bloody wars, therefore there is really nothing historic about "adjarian/laz" boundaries - the language they speak is similar and belongs to the western georgian family, however Laz are typically identifying themselves as Turks and nothing else, and Ajarians are identifying themselves mostly as "muslim georgians". There are also some "georgian" colonists in Trabzon, who speak mainstream georgian and came there relatively recently, but their dress is quite different.

[eftihis]

I have a new nice photo on the subject, a photo of three Pontic Greek guerillas, and one of them has a black sea yataghan.
The problem is that the photo is on a book, i scanned it, but cannot ommit the text arround the photo, so that the photo will be with little enough pixel to post it and be visible.
If someone more technologically advanged can help, i can send him the photo to make it the appropriate size.

[Ian]

Eftihis:

You have a PM ;)

Ian.

I have a new nice photo on the subject, a photo of three Pontic Greek guerillas, and one of them has a black sea yataghan.
The problem is that the photo is on a book, i scanned it, but cannot ommit the text arround the photo, so that the photo will be with little enough pixel to post it and be visible.
If someone more technologically advanged can help, i can send him the photo to make it the appropriate size.

[ariel]

I am adding another thread on Black Sea yataghans ( Laz Bicagi, Karadeniz Yataghan.
Andrew wanted to pool them for a "Classic" some time ago.
Andrew, here they are, ready to be pooled.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002625.html

[Ian]

Here is the picture from eftihis.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v48/Igreaves/eftihis.jpg

[erlikhan]

Interesting picture. Is it something like a theatrical composition or a real warrior group ? I wonder ,because the guy on right has a Caucassian style flintlock pistol and a flintlock rifle(the guy on left as well),but the sitting guy holds a later model rifle and is equipped with its ammunitions. If it is a 1880s, 1890s or 1900s picture, I wonder if flintlocks of such an old technology, even older than percussions really continued to be functional so late in some parts of Turkey.

The long Trabzon kindjal the sitting guy wears is very nice. Meanwhile the guy on his right holds a b.s.y. hilt, but I think the scabbard form shows that its blade is not a classical b.s.y but a different form? :confused:

[Andrew]

I am adding another thread on Black Sea yataghans ( Laz Bicagi, Karadeniz Yataghan.
Andrew wanted to pool them for a "Classic" some time ago.
Andrew, here they are, ready to be pooled.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002625.html

Thanks, Ariel. Got your PM, also.

I'll link this to the "Classics".

[Mark]

Speaking of classic threads, I nominate "Shaver Kool" I & II, and "Ultimate Kampilan (aka 'Look out, Charlie!')." :D

[Jim McDougall]

This thread, or for that matter the research and discussion, on these most esoteric edged weapon examples, is indeed classic! :) I know that I have researched them intermittantly since I acquired my first example in 1996. I had seen them illustrated many years before in the 1962 reference "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Seifert, captioned as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. Later, I found another reference to these in a 1941 article published in Denmark which listed these as Kurdish-Armenian and illustrated examples in a Danish museum provenanced c.1857 to Trebizond.

Years later Mr.Seifert told me he once had one of these with strange markings but no longer had it. I wish I could have seen those markings!!

The Danish article had noted that these were no longer used and seem to have become obsolete for many years, many being found in out buildings etc.
It seems they had a working life from around mid 19th c. to the early 20th at the latest. With what has been discovered since the important examples Ariel reported in Istanbul is most revealing. I must admit that the complexities involving in understanding the ethnic groups and minorities in these regions are perplexing, but extremely fascinating. The history involved in these regions representing so much cultural diffusion is extremely difficult, if not virtually impossible, for anyone not deeply involved in ethnic study. It is not hard to understand how specific attribution to a particular group would be difficult at best, however it does seem these weapons were indeed from the Black Sea region.It is rewarding to see that the Trebizond attribution is well placed, and corroborates the provenance found in the early research (the data for the 1941 article seems to derive from that of a Hungarian narrative c.1896).

In research I also discovered that examples of these swords were among holdings in museums in Tblisi, Georgia and it would seem that the Laz associations with Georgia and the Minghrelians would well substantiate such presence. The evidence of these weapons being used by the Pontic Greeks substantiates the Trebizond provenance since this is the region, on the Black Sea coast of Turkey occupied by these people. Since the Laz also occupy these regions the use of the form by both groups seems clear.

It would be interesting since we have discovered the proper provenance of these swords/yataghans/knives (whichever) that we return to studying the curious 'horned' pommel, its meaning? purpose? It has been suggested that of course the Turkish crescent was symbolized; that it was a fertility symbol deriving from early tribal symbolism; even that it was to serve as a gunrest in firing for accuracy. Not all of these interesting examples have the 'horned hilt' and some vary in degree....with this, the study of variants would be interesting, but as we know, speculative.

As for the blades, the distinctive needle point remains in question, and its similarity to that of the flyssa draws significant attention ( as seen in the North African associations). Seifert in his book does show the flyssa parallel to one of these, and the parallel is seen elsewhere as well. While the similarity in the bellied blades and needle point is clear, the association is not. These weapons are both latecomers in their forms, and neither provenance much before the 19th century (the flyssa well established by 1827, the BSY uncertain but likely c.1840's).

It is worthy of note that Erlikan has described these Black Sea swords as associated with the Tatars of the Crimea...this feature on Crimean sabres has been well established...the Greek colonies in Crimea are also well established...and the connection between those colonies and the Pontic Greeks in Trebizon seems given. Perhaps the point of the Tatar sabres influenced the point of these recurved sabres of Trebizond.

It would be interesting to discover more on the association between the BSY, flyssa and Tatar sabres and these distinct points.

Also the symbolism or purpose of the horned hilt.

We have discovered a lot on these! Lets learn more !! :)

All the best,
Jim


P.S. Shaver Kool, you're goin' down :)

[eftihis]

Erlikhan,
Interesting observation! I do not know the names of these people and the exact date of the photo. The photo is from a book regarding the Pontic Greek guerilla war and uprooting from Pontos during 1920s. It could be a photo from a group that was using whatever they had, or it could be an older studio photo. The description states "Greek guerillas from Trabzon area" However, it could be possible that the photo is older than the 20s, and the wealthiest and more respectfull person which sits in the middle had the means or the authority for the more modern weapon (he also has nicer knifes) and the other were standing withwhatever they had there. MAybe they were all guerillas latter and this is an earlier photo.
Recently, they were on sale on ebay other photos of Pontic Greeks which i attach below.
The first has a date 1898, and the weapons reflect the mix of that era of change! A Martini rifle together with a flintlock pistol.
The second photo shows for sure guerillas on the countryside (their names on the back of the photo) and the weapons are more modern. Nice trabzon kamas always thought!

[TVV]

Wonderful photos, Eftihis. Since some of these photos are studio photos I wonder if some of the archaic flintlock weapons were included there for the purpose of additional decoration? 1898 really is late for flintlock pistols, and the man pictured obviously has access to modern firearms as evidenced by the Martini rifle. Maybe he thought that a pistol with silver decorated butt will enhance his picture more than an unadorned revolver?

[erlikhan]

Eftihis, in 1920s, fllintlock weapons should be too out of age, just antique pieces even then. They are unpractical and risky to depend on against armed enemies. 1898 sounds more logical,..perhaps.. But studio or countryside, if these are original pictures of period warriors, I don't think these though guys would like to look funny and ridiculous at all. If they preferred to get pictured with flintlocks, it means it was not very odd for their environment. So we can accept flintlocks continued in use upto the last of 19th c. in some far parts of Turkey. I had watched some documentary films from 1921, showing workers in Turkish armory workshops, repairing,sharpening and preparing yataghans to equip soldiers, collected from civilians and brought there in big bunches, any kind of,from ordinary horn hilts to ivory ones at least 40-50 years old in 1921, as well as modern bayonets and swords in Turko-Greek war. Perhaps some examples of a very high limit of shortage,poverty and "whatever they had" as you say.

[RSWORD]

Let me draw your attention to one small detail in the photo that Eftihis so kindly provided. The blade in that example, while sheathed, is obviously not as dramatically curved as one often finds. Notice the lack of the large swell in the center of the scabbard. I believe this to be a variant with typically split horn hilt but fairly regular saber style blade. I once had a similar example which had the typical Black Sea Yat handle but a saber blade with shallow curvature but typical fullering often found on these examples. So, interesting that you have 2 distinct Black Sea Yat blade profiles, greatly recurved and saber style with little curvature yet both with same handle.

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding Rick!!!
These photos are great, and as you have observed that these had variations. As I mentioned in my most recent post, there are a number of types from the same general regions, and it would be great to see illustrations of them. There are examples of these extremely recurved blades with sabre type hilts and vice versa.

As I mentioned I am hoping that we might consider the horned hilt in discussion. B.I.had mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that a distinguished member of the board of the Askeri Museum in Istanbul had completed a map detailing regional locations of many of the variations.
It would be most interesting to know details of that map!

All the best,
Jim

[Tatyana Dianova]

Today I've got a new book "Edged Weapons in the Collection of the Russian Museum of Ethnography" and found there a couple of interesting examples. The first one was aquired during the museum expedition to Tashkent, Uzbekistan in 1934 and is attributed to Kazakhs. The origin of other 2 is unknown.

[ham]

That is a beautifully photographed album but its content is severely lacking in terms of accuracy.
As to the "Black Sea Yatagan" per se, it is interesting that these weapons migrated about as they did, however this should not be taken as an indicator of origin.

Ham

[Yannis]

More on this legend sword. This photo shows the Pontian ancestors of a Greek family, around 1900. Look the hilt

[Mark]

You can definitely see the curve of the blade and the pudgey scabbard, as well.

[ariel]

Erlikhan,
Interesting observation! I do not know the names of these people and the exact date of the photo. The photo is from a book regarding the Pontic Greek guerilla war and uprooting from Pontos during 1920s. It could be a photo from a group that was using whatever they had, or it could be an older studio photo. The description states "Greek guerillas from Trabzon area" However, it could be possible that the photo is older than the 20s, and the wealthiest and more respectfull person which sits in the middle had the means or the authority for the more modern weapon (he also has nicer knifes) and the other were standing withwhatever they had there. MAybe they were all guerillas latter and this is an earlier photo.
Recently, they were on sale on ebay other photos of Pontic Greeks which i attach below.
The first has a date 1898, and the weapons reflect the mix of that era of change! A Martini rifle together with a flintlock pistol.
The second photo shows for sure guerillas on the countryside (their names on the back of the photo) and the weapons are more modern. Nice trabzon kamas always thought!

Artzi has a new Kindjal on his site and has graciously gave me permission to reference it here. He even put a " Not for sale" sign for the duration of our discussions.
Many thanks!
OK, here it is :
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2883
This is a typical South Caucasian/North Turkish kindjal, usually attributed to Minghrelians,Gurians etc. As Eftihis shows , these kindjals were also worn by Pontian Greeks, and earlier posts ( Erlikhan?) had a picture of a Laz family displaying similar weapons.
What is so specific about them? Square pommel and relatively blunt tip.
But the interesting part for our discussion is the scabbard, ie leatherwork.
Tirri in his book noticed similarities between the leatherwork on Laz Bicagi's scabbards and Danagil knives. This was one of his main arguments in attributing the BSY not to the Black Sea area, but to North Africa.
But here we have a typical Caucasian weapon, kindjal, from a very defined area, North Turkey, with the same leatherwork. That is yet another argument in favor of ( already well established) Caucasian provenance of Laz Bicagi. Interestingly, Artzi's example has it leatherwork dyed green; exactly the color used on most Laz Bicagis ( see, for example, post by Tim on this thread and dated Oct. 12, 2005)
Once again, thanks to Artzi for his help.

[CourseEight]

Thanks so much for you commentary on this! I saw it on his site but was waiting for it to sell before asking about it. What with my own BS Yatagan (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5722), I am very interested in the origins of Tirri's in particular. I do have a question though. Earlier in this thread I think it is mentioned that the similarity between African leather work and that of Tirri's yatagan could be explained by Laz pirates traveling to N. Africa, and perhaps incorporating local decoration. This would also explain the relative rarity of this sort of leather work on this particular weapon type. My question is, why could this new kinjal not also be an example of this sort of cross-culturalization? I gather from your post that this leatherwork appearing on kinjal is also uncommon to see, and surely such a weapon could have travelled just as the BS yatagan.

Of course this is rather playing the devil's advocate, and begs the question: How does one actually prove that this leather work is in fact Causcasian, and not a direct influence from N. Africa? How many weapons, or must it appear on items that would not possibly have travelled?

Your continued posting of your expertise is invaluable to those of us who are far less studied, and greatly appreciated!

--Radleigh

[Jim McDougall]

I agree Radleigh, Ariels expertise is indeed much appreciated, and I have often been impressed by his continued research on this transcaucasian mystery weapon. My own research on the Black Sea yataghan began about 1995 when I obtained my first example. I was extremely excited as it did appear to be an extremely rare form, and only mentioned (and illustrated) in very obscure references.Most of my research was secondary, spent in reconfirming provenance of the weapons in the early article from 1941 (Denmark) and contacting Gerhard Seifert, the author of the 1962 "Schwert Degen Sabel" who surprisingly told me that the information from his book on these 'Kurdish/Armenian yataghans' as he captioned it, was obtained from the author of the 1941 article.
Through the years, more examples surfaced, and by the time I encountered Tony Tirri in Baltimore (just prior to publication of his book) I was pretty much astounded by the fact that he based his theory of North African origin on these by a single example, which did indeed reflect compelling similarities to African weapons.

There is a long and interesting trail of posts and threads on these fascinating weapons, which has been even more fascinating to me as added to my own research of years prior to these forum references and Tirri's book. I think Ariel did indeed prove conclusively the origins of the BSY, which was extremely exciting for me when my own conclusions were validated.

It is not often that a mysterious ethnographic edged weapon with such a vaguely represented past has its ancestry so plausibly revealed, especially given the intense diffusion of these weapons in times of diaspora and geopolitical flux. It is times like these and with these kind of results that I am reminded of why we all band together in our serious study of these weapons to resolve errors often found in published material, and properly preserve the true history of these weapons.

Thanks again Ariel for the tenacity and continued research supporting the findings on these fascinating weapons!

All very best regards,
Jim

[CourseEight]

Hi Jim! Thanks for your response. I don;t want to misrepresent what I'm asking here. I think based only on what's on the forum it is clear that, as a form, the BS yatagan is a Caucasian weapon. I'm more interested specifically in Tirri's one example, and why it (and mine, and this kindjal) have such decoration as to think they are N. African. I guess my question is whether it is more likely that this mode of decoration developed indeppendently as a rare form of decoration in the Causcuses, or whether it developed because of N. African influence, or whether these weapons originated in the Caucuses and were decorated in N. Africa.

By no means am I suggesting Ariel's (or your) attribution as to the origin of this weapon as a type is incorrect. I'm just trying to determine if there is a real reasaon for the orginal source of the confusion.

Thanks for all you do here as well, to be sure!

--Radleigh

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Radleigh,
I didn't mean to sound as if there was any negative connotation in your post, which there was decidely not, I simply wanted to concur with your very positive comments on Ariel and his observations.

I very much like your very well placed questions in trying to find the possible explanations for the similarities in decoration and if there are identifiable links to support such influences. This is one of the key elements of the serious study of ethnographic weapons and thier development as well as thier diffusion and influence.
Thank you for the very kind words, and please do maintain asking these kinds of questions on weapons as they appear here on the forum. This is the kind of approach I always hope for as weapons are posted. I look forward to hearing answers from those here who are known to be highly knowledgable on weapons of these regions.

All the best,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gentlemen,

I have, over the years, read about your Black See yataghan, and I have started to wonder, when is a yatagan a yatagan and when is it a yatagan?

The yatagan blades seem to be more and more artistic, so could you please give a clear definition of what such a blade looks like.

[Jim McDougall]

Very good observation Jens, the term 'yataghan' on these swords is somewhat misapplied, and it seems that the application of the term derives from the 1941 article where these were identified as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. Obviously the term itself seems to have a quite general use in some cases, as for example, the 'Salawar yataghan' which actually refers to the 'Khyber knife' . These typically huge knives are of course actually short swords, with a huge butcher knife blade shape with has nothing remotely to do with the forward curved yataghan blade.

As is so often the case, terminology in the study of ethnographic weapons is confounding, to say the least!

It should be noted that these 'Black Sea yataghans' with horned hilts, have blades that sometimes deviate from the most common needle point, recurved blades to heavier and slightly curved blades. For that matter, the horned hilt is also not always present as the examples sometimes have an almost kindjhal like pommel.

All best regards,
Jim

[ariel]

OK, guys, many thanks for the compliments, but they are misplaced.
The Black Sea origin of the BSY was known to many ( Artzi, for sure!) well before my trip to Istanbul. The presence of similar specimens in the Askeri Muze was also mentioned by others.
My only "contribution" was asking a young curator there the local name for it, and reporting here that it was Laz Bicagi. Beyond that, I added zilch to the issue.
As to the term "yataghan", it also comes from the origin: "Black Sea Yataghan" is a literal translation of "Karadeniz Yataghan". Astvatsaturyan in her book "Turkish weapons" shows a gorgeous example with ivory handle ( BTW, more "ear-like" than the usual horns) from the collection of the State Historical Museum. The caption reads (in exact translation) " Yataghan of original form". I already had a short fistfight with a non-Russian enthusiast who wanted to announce an Earth-shattering theory that this type of sword was in fact an "Ur" yataghan, based on the literal translation of the word "original". In fact, Russians use the word "original'nyi" to indicate " unusual".
As the mouse said after barking at the cat and frightening it into immediate retreat " It is nice to know foreign languages" :D

BTW, can the moderators permanently attach a picture of Artzi's kindjal to this thread? Hope he does not mind.

[Oriental-Arms]

Photos attached:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/items/83/002883/ph-0.jpg

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/items/83/002883/ph-3.jpg

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/items/83/002883/ph-4.jpg

[ariel]

Dear Artzi,
You are a prince!

[Jim McDougall]

Artzi, thank you very much for posting this extremely impressive kindjhal, which indeed shows the green leather as seen on the large elliptical scabbards sometimes seen on the BSY scabbards. Please excuse the inadvertant omission of your research into these interesting weapons in my previous comments. Naturally your position on these was indeed well known on these many years before Ariels visit to Istanbul, and I was remiss in not mentioning Lee's notes on the weapon from his own visit to Istanbul.

Ariel, I appreciate your notes bringing this to my attention, as well as your very gentlemanly modesty. My compliments were meant to address more specifically your attention to the continued pursuit of resolution concerning the many questions pertaining to these mysterious swords.
I would like to thank you additionally for the explanation of how the term 'yataghan' came to be applied to these as well. Your attention to detail is very much appreciated, as I wondered the same thing that Jens had noted.

All very best regards,
Jim

[gp]

Hello and welcome to this Forum :). We all are impressed of knowledge you can find here.

I can't say anything about yataghans, Ariel is one of the members with great knowledge about these weapons, but here you can find some old threads with discussions about them :)


http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002118.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001960.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002445.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002445.html

Link 5 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31)

Is there a possibility that one of the mods can add a link to the Above ones 2118, 1960, 2445 as the give an error message

[Ian]

gp,

The old UBB forum was hacked and is now defunct. Those threads are lost.

Ian

[Lee]

You can still see some of the old UBB threads courtesy of the internet Archive's Wayback Machine.

Enter one of the URLs above on this page at http://wayback.archive.org/ and it will indicate what backup copies exist. Click the link and there it will be!

The original files were corrupted by some scumbag appending a extortion routine at the end of each file. They exist in deep quarantine and while it appeared possible to clean them using a text editor, I hesitate to try to repair them, as would I find all the contagion?

But the Wayback Machine can help you today.

[gp]

thnx a lot Gents !