ARABIAN SPEARS-HAS ANYONE SEEN THESE?

[kahnjar1]

In his book Arms and Armour of Arabia, Elgood illustrates spears used on the Arabian Peninsula. Has anyone seen these, or better still actually got any in their collection? We see many spears on the Forum, from Africa, and other places, but I do not recall ever seeing any described as being from Arabia.

[thinreadline]

The problem is that he doesnt provide any clear illustrations, one hazy photo and one somewhat indistinct painting . The descriptions in many cases are very detailed but each seems to describe something completely different . References to lances up to 25 feet long seem astonishing and a bit unlikely to me .. what would be the point ( forgive the pun ) of such an unwieldy weapon . However I have been inspired by your post to check through my lances / spears to see if any match any of the descriptions .

[A.alnakkas]

hello gents!

http://www.geh.org/ar/strip63/m198803560014.jpg can this help?

this maybe http://hbfimmigrants.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=photographs&action=print&thread=103 :D

[Nathaniel]

hello gents!

http://www.geh.org/ar/strip63/m198803560014.jpg can this help?

this maybe http://hbfimmigrants.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=photographs&action=print&thread=103 :D

Fantastic collection of old photos!!! It's wonderful to see. Thanks for sharing!!!

[kahnjar1]

:o :o Sorry my mistake as to source. Not Elgood, but from an exhibition at the King Faisal Center in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Pic attached describes the spears as being called SHILFA and from the Najd Region of Saudi Arabia.
Mounting is described as bamboo sticks.
..................so I guess the original question remains. Has anyone seen these or have any in their collection?
Thanks to those who have replied re the Lance, but not quite what I was trying to find out about, though interesting just the same.
Regards Stu

[Steve]

Stu,
I've attached some additional photos of Bedouin spears, although they look more like a lance to me.
As previously mentioned it appears bamboo is the preferred haft.
The caption for the photo of the spear head by itself says that " this is not typical, most spear points are more conical and elongated in form". From the other illustrations I guess he is saying that the bedouin spear head usually has a long metal cyclinder running from it into the haft.
This may be a means of identifying these spears. I'm not a spear man but it could be useful information.
Steve

[kahnjar1]

Thanks Steve. The guy on the horse, I would say, has a lance rather than a spear. I like the saddle gun though :) That group of spears you have shown does not look like those in the earlier pic from the exhibition in Riyadh. Is there a caption with the group you show?
Stu

[Steve]

Caption reads " Typical of Bedouin spears, this range of examples displays the conical and elongated form of the head and the blunted shape of the spike, for sticking into the ground, at the other end".

They look reasonably easy to identify?
Steve

[estcrh]

A few images of Bedouin lances.

Hi resolution images.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/55/4f/25/554f255fed1c828c642dfcb60d6aa122.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/32/7d/71/327d7181328488419b8c554070df65ee.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/77/f6/48/77f64819dfc09e571407e76a6530cf89.jpg

[colin henshaw]

Great images, thanks for posting. Arabian spears/lances have always been a bit of an enigma. These images (from the Jordan area ?) show the distinctive form of head with that metal "sleeve". :)

[estcrh]

Great images, thanks for posting. Arabian spears/lances have always been a bit of an enigma. These images (from the Jordan area ?) show the distinctive form of head with that metal "sleeve". :)
Colin, I am sure that there are more examples out there, just as I am sure that some people have these in their collections without knowing what they are. Some more images would be helpful, most are blurred or not detailed enough to learn anything from.

[Iain]

I have a feeling these may get misidentified as Indian at times. That would be initial reaction without the photo evidence of where they are actually from! :)

[colin henshaw]

:o :o Sorry my mistake as to source. Not Elgood, but from an exhibition at the King Faisal Center in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Pic attached describes the spears as being called SHILFA and from the Najd Region of Saudi Arabia.
Mounting is described as bamboo sticks.
..................so I guess the original question remains. Has anyone seen these or have any in their collection?
Thanks to those who have replied re the Lance, but not quite what I was trying to find out about, though interesting just the same.
Regards Stu

An observation - I'm fairly sure the blade on the spear at the far right of this image is from Somalia. ie. the image with the red background.

[estcrh]

An observation - I'm fairly sure the blade on the spear at the far right of this image is from Somalia. ie. the image with the red background.

Colin, the one with the arrow, it does look distinctly different than the rest.

[colin henshaw]

Colin, the one with the arrow, it does look distinctly different than the rest.

Yes, that the one...

[Iain]

Yes, that the one...

It is, typical for the region and a similar style can be found in Ethiopia as well I believe.

[David R]

Does anyone else think this one is a re-purposed Qama/Kindjal blade?

[Roland_M]

Does anyone else think this one is a re-purposed Qama/Kindjal blade?


Yes, this makes sense in my opinion. The other lance heads have a central rib for stiffening but this example has two fullers, which makes no sense on a lance head. The lower end of this lance head is another indication.

Roland

[weapons 27]

I think I have a spearhead that corresponds to your photos ..
iron measuring 22cm long and 48cm with sleeve

[David R]

That sleeve at the base looks a very good way of converting another blade into a spearhead. Looking at the photos above make me wonder if this one started life as a dagger.

[estcrh]

Does anyone else think this one is a re-purposed Qama/Kindjal blade?

What about this one.

[estcrh]

I think I have a spearhead that corresponds to your photos ..
iron measuring 22cm long and 48cm with sleeveLooks like a match to me.

[A.alnakkas]

I think I have a spearhead that corresponds to your photos ..
iron measuring 22cm long and 48cm with sleeve

This is one in my collection. Some have copper or bronze inlay or slots on the shaft.

[rickystl]

Although my primary interest is Ethno firearms, I enjoy reading these Threads and always learn something. And sometimes I get a surprise.........

Steve: Thanks so much for the photo showing a Ottoman style Knee Pistol suspended from a belt in typical "ready" fashion. Best original pic I've seen.

Estcrh: Thank you for the original pic showing the warrior in the middle with a brace of pistols being carried in a typical Ottoman style double bucket/holster.

Thank you again gentlemen. I can add these photos to my gun library.

It seems the spear/lance was one of the oldest, most widely used weapons in history, dating back to the stone age.

Rick.

[Iain]

This is one in my collection. Some have copper or bronze inlay or slots on the shaft.

Nice example. What are the dimensions? Could you perhaps photograph it next to a saif? One of the hardest things I find with spears is to get a sense of the scale of the heads.

PS: Clean it up! :p

[estcrh]

Although my primary interest is Ethno firearms, I enjoy reading these Threads and always learn something. And sometimes I get a surprise.........

Steve: Thanks so much for the photo showing a Ottoman style Knee Pistol suspended from a belt in typical "ready" fashion. Best original pic I've seen.

Estcrh: Thank you for the original pic showing the warrior in the middle with a brace of pistols being carried in a typical Ottoman style double bucket/holster.

Thank you again gentlemen. I can add these photos to my gun library.

It seems the spear/lance was one of the oldest, most widely used weapons in history, dating back to the stone age.

Rick.

Rick, Colin Henshaw originally posted the photo of the knee pistol on another thread, he said it was from "Traditional Crafts of Saudi Arabia" by John Topham, 1982. There is a mention of both the lances/spears of the Bedouin and their firearms.

[estcrh]

This is one in my collection. Some have copper or bronze inlay or slots on the shaft.
Another nice example.

[estcrh]

Estcrh: Thank you for the original pic showing the warrior in the middle with a brace of pistols being carried in a typical Ottoman style double bucket/holster.

Rick, here is one more example.

[LJ]

In my ignorance, I catalogued this as being from Kafiristan, because of the way the base is 'stepped' - which looks similar to a Kafiri dagger. So, now I know better !

Unfortunately, the wooden shaft is not original, it looks like it has been put on by a collector.

Is there any definite information about the distribution of these spears in Saudi Arabia ?

[estcrh]

In my ignorance, I catalogued this as being from Kafiristan, because of the way the base is 'stepped' - which looks similar to a Kafiri dagger. So, now I know better !

Unfortunately, the wooden shaft is not original, it looks like it has been put on by a collector.

Is there any definite information about the distribution of these spears in Saudi Arabia ?

Another nice example. If these are mainly a bedouin weapon then distribution would have been much wider than just Saudi Arabia, I believe that the bedouin were all over the Middle East/North Africa.

[rickystl]

Estcrh: You are the gift that keeps on giving!! LOL :D Thank you. Great pic!!
Rick.

[estcrh]

Estcrh: You are the gift that keeps on giving!! LOL :D Thank you. Great pic!!
Rick.
Rick, one more, have you seen this one?

[Richard G]

I would surmise that the extreme length of these spears accounts for their rarity these days. If you no longer have a use for one it would be nothing but a liability. Even todays collectors who would dearly love tp possess one might have difficulty accomodating a 25 ft spear.
Regards
Richard

[Kubur]

Rick, one more, have you seen this one?

Estcrh
Your photographs are amazing!!Thanks
:)

[rickystl]

Estcrh: NO!! I have not seen this one either. Thank you sooooo much. WOW!
It not only shows the two pistols in the bucket/holster, but also the blunderbuss knee pistol in the right hand. Super pic!! Thank you again.
Rick.

[kahnjar1]

I would surmise that the extreme length of these spears accounts for their rarity these days. If you no longer have a use for one it would be nothing but a liability. Even todays collectors who would dearly love tp possess one might have difficulty accomodating a 25 ft spear.
Regards
Richard
Don't forget that the long version is a Lance rather than a spear.
When I started this thread 5 years ago, there was very little discussion, but now after all this time we are starting to get information. Thank you all who have contributed.
Stu

[estcrh]

I would surmise that the extreme length of these spears accounts for their rarity these days. If you no longer have a use for one it would be nothing but a liability. Even todays collectors who would dearly love tp possess one might have difficulty accomodating a 25 ft spear.
Regards
Richard
Richard, while these lances were extremely long, from looking at the available images I think (could be wrong) they were more in the range of 10 ft to 15 ft max. The Bedouin look to be around 5ft+, the lances look to be twice or at most three times the height of the Bedouin. Maybe someone here has seen one in person and can add some additional info about the length of the Bedouin lances/spears.

[estcrh]

A few more images, these are from the World's Columbian Exposition,
Chicago, May 1, 1893 - October 31, 1893.

ARAB SPEARMAN OF THE WILD EAST SHOW - The visit of the Bedouins to Chicago in 1893 was attended with many sorrows, and if the Caucasian fares ill on the desert, the Arabs might well complain that they had no better fortune in the Caucasian country. It was not until the latter days of the Fair that the Bedouins settled with their Wild East safely in that paradise of ethnology, the Midway Plaisance; and though they often figured in the newspapers, it was because of attachments by the Sheriff rather than any popular favor that they evoked. The counter-attraction of the Cowboys, Mexicans, Cossacks, Bedouins, and military under Buffalo Bill, guided by excellent managerial ability, left the Bedouins in the shadows of obscurity and indifference. Nobody, however, who paid twenty-five cents to see these Arabs failed to secure valuable instruction. The patron learned that the Bedouin is at least a peaceable shepherd, of perhaps better temper than the Sicilians or Calabrians now so familiar in America; and if the reader study the figures of horses and riders in the engraving, he will espy the absence of savagery in their attitude. The Bedouin always bears the lance, as it is here seen, and his manner of holding or trailing it usually announces his tribe. He can hurl his lance with good aim, and it is his real weapon, though he usually carries both a bad horse-pistol and a rusty sword. These Bedouins called themselves Syrians.

IN THE BEDOUIN ENCAMPMENT - Nearly or quite the last western feature on the south side of Midway Plaisance, as the visitor left that boulevard and entered Cottage Grove avenue, a mile from the Fair, was a stockade in which a Wild East entertainment was offered, similar in nature to the Oriental features of Buffalo Bill's Wild West, at Sixty-fourth street. The engraving shows a company of performers seated on their handsome steeds, and caparisoned for battle and pillage. A camel is also seen in the rear. The tents, shanties, and stockade of the troop may be noted, showing many resemblances to the out-door performances at Buffalo Bill's. In front of the encampment, on a small platform, a man who blew a small shrill pipe, a young woman who danced or postured, and a young man who accompanied her in the dance, performed before the open Plaisance,with a view of introducing visitors to the troupe, and piquing public curiosity. The evolutions of the spearman and their sham battles were attractive to lovers of the turf, and not unpleasant spectacles to the masses. The troupe began operations at Sixteenth street, moved to Garfield Park, west of the city, and finally landed safely on the Plaisance, but its members left the city vowing to roast the first Chicagoan they met in the desert.

[estcrh]

ARABIA PICTURED FOR CHILDREN, BY SAMUEL M. ZWEMER AND AMY E. ZWEMER, 1902.


ARAB RIDERS WITH LANCES.

The Bedouin are divided into many tribes and clans. Some of them are friendly to each other but nearly all are at war with one another all the year round. Robbery and murder are very frequent. Every one goes armed with a long spear or with a gun, and many carry a war club and a sword as well. The largest Arab tribes and the wealthiest are the Anaeze and the Shommar. They have many fine horses.

In the picture you see a group of them armed with their long spears. The spear of the leader is ornamented with a tuft of ostrich feathers; these spears are often over twelve feet long and have a sharp steel lance at the end. The Arabs are fond of games, especially galloping their horses and playing at war. They are very skillful riders and kind to their steeds; they do not spend much time in grooming them and they never use a whip and seldom a bit. Their bridle is like our halter strap, and the horse is so well trained that he needs no iron bit in his mouth.

[estcrh]

A couple more examples.

[broadaxe]

The Bedouin lance/spear is regarded as 'holy grail' by collectors of Arabian weapons in Israel. Yes, they were widespread in all the Middle East. The group photo with three people was taken south to Jerusalem - it is quite famous, I have a framed print. The horseman with the very long lance was photographed with the Jordan river behind him, Beit-She'an area.
The photo here is from a public collections, with firm references, 2ft long.

[estcrh]

The photo here is from a public collections, with firm references, 2ft long.
A little bit diferent than the others shown here.

[kronckew]

on a historical note, these were in serious use at least until 1902:

Riyadh-Al-Bathaa-Masmak-Fortress...This was the citadel in the heart of Old Riyadh that King Abdul Aziz took in January 1902 to regain control of the city. During the raid one of the future king's companions heaved a spear at the door with such force that the head is still lodged in the doorway ... The fortress is built of dried mud. It is now used as a museum honouring Abdul Aziz.

i've seen it, sadly the tip broke off & remains in the door. the rest of the lance & head is elsewhere, didn't see it. i had no time to tour the fort as i had to pick up my re-entry visa for the UK & catch a plane back to dammam.

the fort & the door: spearpoint is just right of the X brace on the sally door inset in the main gate door itself. :