Any Amazon collectors?

[Tim Simmons]

Are there any collectors of Peruvian or Brazilian Amazon Indian weapons? If so I would like your opinions please.

For many years I have wanted a club or should I say clubs from this region. I am not really talking about "Antique" though yes we all want as old as we can get. I have seen on TV recently contacted people with clubs but cannot find publications on the subject or stuff on the net. I have a book on feather work :shrug:

I have recently bought from a USA internet " Tribal art" trader, this club. Which was not a great sum of money so I do not expect too much. He assures me it is genuine, collected himself and says it is older as these things go :rolleyes:

It has yet to arrive. I can show clubs of the same size approx 23inches long, like the two East African examples I show here. The club is also the same approx width as the Trobriand island/Massim club, 3inches. The seller says it is 3/4 inch thick which is a touch more than the sword club.

If you have any information on this club and weapons from the region please do not hold back. The Amazon club is on the black background.

[Luc LEFEBVRE]

Yes... :D

[Tim Simmons]

Lovely examples, pricey :rolleyes: .

[kahnjar1]

..........my wife would object...........but nice just the same :mad:

[Berkley]

High maintenance collectibles. :D

[asomotif]

Pfew... An open door, and I am not the first to kick it in :D :D ;)

I am in the lucky position that I can get mandau's in the dining room, and Asmat shields on my bedroom wall.
But collecting AMAZONES.... No, my wife will surely object.
Besides that these Amzones have a name of having a temper. So even collecting them can involve certain risks :cool:

Than serious, I bump into feather decorations on regular basis. But clubs attributed to the amazone region. They are probably not very common.

Surinam has been dutch colonial property in the past.
Did / or do they have clubs there ?

Best regards,
Willem

[kronckew]

:) the bow on the right is strung backwards. obviously the photographer was not a horsebowman.

http://194.29.195.32/primitiivinet/pics/hunset1.jpg

[Tim Simmons]

On the serious side I have found this picture. The bearded chap with the red headress is carrying a fantastic looking spear. The club is said to be either Bora or Yagua people. How can one get these weapons?

[kronckew]

get yourself born into the tribe, that should do it. as it is likely too late for that, maybe adoption would work for you.

i'd like to know what wood they made those out of. looks like a lot of patient woodworking too.

i's suspect there must be a brazilian native arts store somewhere, but likely touristy stuff. maybe one of our brazilians has an idea?

[Tim Simmons]

Yes sure there is tourist stuff, but that fellows arms dont look like it to me.

[Tim Simmons]

Got this picture from 1918 publication. Tukano, still western Amazon but more northerly Columbia/Brazil border but not that far from Yagua.

[fearn]

No blowpipes? Considering that (reportedly) many of the tribes that used to make blowpipes have lost their skills, I'd suggest this might be a great thing to collect. Additionally, it avoids the macaw feathers and jaguar teeth which would get something confiscated under CITES.

Best,

F

[colin henshaw]

Tim

I occasionally find things from Guyana, because of the colonial connection (ex British Guiana), but almost never from Brazil. I wonder if Portugal could be a possible source ?

[Tim Simmons]

No worries here I was not expecting anying older than the last part of the 20th century. I like the big pommel, a close contact bludgeon.

[VANDOO]

MY SOURCE DRIED UP QUITE A WHILE BACK AND WAS NOT VERY PRODUCTIVE ANYWAY BUT I HAVE DABBLED A BIT IN SOUTH AMERICAN CLUBS. I WILL PUT IN A FEW PICTURES WITH WHAT INFORMATION I HAVE.
1. KAYAPO TRIBE, BRAZIL, DANCE
2.REPLICA OF AZTEC MACUAHUITL WAR CLUB WITH OBSIDIAN BLADES.
3. BORA TRIBE, PERU, RIO AMPIYACU PEBAS
4. FOUR VARIOUS AMAZON WAR CLUBS
5.KARAJA TRIBE BRAZIL, 20.5IN. LONG CLUB
6.HUAORA TRIBE HUNTER WITH CLUB, AND BLOWGUN
7.MACARA CLUB,GUIANA N. BRAZIL CLUB 25.5 X 4IN.
8. SHIPIBO KOMBO TRIBE,PERU, FULL SIZE CLUB
9. SHIPIBO KOMBO, PERU, TOURIST MODEL 21 IN LONG.
10. SHIPIBO KOMBO TRIBE,UOAYALI RIVER AREA PERU
11.YANOMANI TRIBE CLUBS
12. AZTEC REPLICA MACUAHUITL WAR CLUB

[VANDOO]

A FEW MORE AND I WILL QUIT.
1. AZTEC REPLICA OBSIDIAN BLADES
2.KARAJA TRIBE WAR CLUB
3. & 4. KAYAPO WAR CLUBS
5. LEATHER PERDIDA, EARLY FORM OF BOLO'S
6. MACANA CLUB, 11 X 2.75 IN LONG, GUIANA ,N. BRAZIL

[Tim Simmons]

Thanks for the pictures Barry. I was going to buy one of those clubs no the black background, but by the time I made my mind up, somebody else snapped it up. I was frying a Niue fish, so you win some you loose some. JusT this picture 1908 is most interesting. As specially the Brummagen/Brummagem ie Burmingham England goods. From "The Hidden Peoples of the Amazon museum of mankind, Elizabeth Carmichael 1985" at this date it is said that large tribe against tribe conflict had more or less stopped but smaller inter-tribal conflicts still happened.

[fearn]

Hi Vandoo,

Loved the pictures, but I'm not sure that the "Bolo perdido" is an early version of the bolo. I remember reading that it was a later version, and the multi-ball versions were the oldest. Either way, it's a cool weapon from the Pampas.

Best,

F

[Nathaniel]

:) the bow on the right is strung backwards. obviously the photographer was not a horsebowman.

http://194.29.195.32/primitiivinet/pics/hunset1.jpg

Yes, I noticed that too...afterwards :p

[Nathaniel]

A FEW MORE AND I WILL QUIT.
1. AZTEC REPLICA OBSIDIAN BLADES
2.KARAJA TRIBE WAR CLUB
3. & 4. KAYAPO WAR CLUBS
5. LEATHER PERDIDA, EARLY FORM OF BOLO'S
6. MACANA CLUB, 11 X 2.75 IN LONG, GUIANA ,N. BRAZIL


Obsidian lined clubs would definitely make a garly cut...some might groan when I mention the show...but the Spike TV program Deadliest Warrior featured a Aztec Jaguar warrior:

http://deadliestwarrior.wikia.com/wiki/Aztec_Jaguar

[fearn]

GROAN :D :D :D

[Nathaniel]

:p None the less it was kind of interesting seeing the program how a heavy cotton vest worked as an effective light armour :)

[fearn]

Personally, I think the Koreans did it better (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myunjebaegab). But that is off topic. Getting back on topic, why hasn't anyone talked about Francisco de Orellana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_de_Orellana) yet?

Best,

F

[Tim Simmons]

A British historian "Michael Woods" made a very fine set of TV documentaries the "Conquistadors" episode 3 is all about that amazing Amazon journey. The set is available from amazon. It really does help you understand the Amazon basin.

http://www.mytvblog.org/?p=310

[VANDOO]

THERE IS A BOOK THAT IS A CULTURAL STUDY ON THE YANOMAMO TRIBE. IT IS " THE FIERCE PEOPLE" BY NAPOLEN A. CHAGNON. IT IS AVAILABLE AND NOT EXPENSIVE. A ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDY NOT A NOVEL FULL OF ADVENTURE AND CONJECTURE BUT ENLIGHTENING AND NOT A DIFFICULT READ.
THE TRIBES MOST WRITTEN ABOUT ARE THE ONES WHO USED TO SHRINK HEADS NOTABLY THE HJIVARO /JIVARO. THERE WERE OTHER TRIBES WHO HAD THE PRACTICE AS WELL. IT SEEMES TO HAVE OCCURED ONLY IN THE AMAZON IN ECUADOUR, BRAZIL AND POSSIBLY PERU :confused: . I WOULD HAVE TO BACK TRACK AND DO A LOT OF READING TO BE SURE AND THERE ISN'T ENOUGH TIME SO TAKE THIS ONLY AS A GUIDE LINE. :rolleyes: I COULD ADD PICTURES OF SHRUNKEN HEADS ECT. BUT WILL REFRAIN AS NO DOUBT SOMEONE WOULD BE OFFENDED.
IN MY SECOND POST WITH PICTURES THE ORDER GOT SHIFTED BUT IT IS STILL EASY TO SORT IT OUT AS TO WHAT IS WHAT

[fearn]

A British historian "Michael Woods" made a very fine set of TV documentaries the "Conquistadors" episode 3 is all about that amazing Amazon journey. The set is available from amazon. It really does help you understand the Amazon basin.

http://www.mytvblog.org/?p=310

That looks neat. The Lost Cities of The Amazon on National Geographic covers similar ground, I think. It shows up on the National Geographic Channel in the US.

The story Tim and I are alluding to is Orellana's voyage down the Amazon, the first time a European had seen the place. While on the river, he encountered what he called cities, and places where settlements stretched for kilometers along the bank.

For centuries, his report was disregarded as a fantasy, but the archeologists are finding evidence in the soil (see terra preta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta) that Orellana's report may be accurate.

The implication is that the Amazon basin was once densely populated, and that our modern view of wandering tribes is actually a product of European contact. It also implies that many of the curiosities of Amazonian culture, particularly things such as curare and other drugs, may actually have been discovered by people in a largely vanished, and very unusual culture.

Speaking of which, cultural erosion continues apace in the Amazon. I read a few months ago that the tribe that supplied westerners with the first, identifiable curare preparation no longer know how to make or use it. They rely instead on western-supplied guns and food. If you happen to have Amazonian artifacts, I'd suggest curating them well. The children or grandchildren of the tribes who made them may one day want them back, when they start reclaiming their heritage and trying to find out how their ancestors did things. Collectors may inadvertently become the guardians of their cultures. We all realize that we may not be the last owner of a piece, but in this case, a piece we like today may be a cultural treasure in decades to come.

Best,

F

[Rick]

THERE IS A BOOK THAT IS A CULTURAL STUDY ON THE YANOMAMO TRIBE. IT IS " THE FIERCE PEOPLE" BY NAPOLEN A. CHAGNON. IT IS AVAILABLE AND NOT EXPENSIVE. A ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDY NOT A NOVEL FULL OF ADVENTURE AND CONJECTURE BUT ENLIGHTENING AND NOT A DIFFICULT READ.
THE TRIBES MOST WRITTEN ABOUT ARE THE ONES WHO USED TO SHRINK HEADS NOTABLY THE HJIVARO /JIVARO. THERE WERE OTHER TRIBES WHO HAD THE PRACTICE AS WELL. IT SEEMES TO HAVE OCCURED ONLY IN THE AMAZON IN ECUADOUR, BRAZIL AND POSSIBLY PERU :confused: . I WOULD HAVE TO BACK TRACK AND DO A LOT OF READING TO BE SURE AND THERE ISN'T ENOUGH TIME SO TAKE THIS ONLY AS A GUIDE LINE. :rolleyes: I COULD ADD PICTURES OF SHRUNKEN HEADS ECT. BUT WILL REFRAIN AS NO DOUBT SOMEONE WOULD BE OFFENDED.
IN MY SECOND POST WITH PICTURES THE ORDER GOT SHIFTED BUT IT IS STILL EASY TO SORT IT OUT AS TO WHAT IS WHAT

I saw and handled my first shrunken head 50 years ago . :)
It was given to a friend of mine by an older person in our neighborhood .

It is a very curious feeling holding another man's head .
An experience I will carry with me .

[Tim Simmons]

Got a couple of these coming-

http://americanindian.si.edu/searchcollections/item.aspx?irn=137227&objtype=Hunting/Fishing/Warfare&objid=Club

Thought it might be a good idea while they are still around as the real thing. 20th century like so much of all the stuff we see here.

[Titus Pullo]

Anybody seen that movie "Apocalypto"? It's a great movie.... They use real Indians and some actors from Mexico, which are basically Indians anyway. I recommend it to anyone.

[Tim Simmons]

The long one is 45 inches long and idea for keeping an arms length apart. They are not antique but they are certainly not new and have some age when I compare the the weaving with Naga pieces. The pictures are from "AMAZONIEN Indianer der Regenwalder und Savannen, Museum fur Volkerkunde Dresden 2009" collection dates in the publication span the 20th century. So I think I am in good company.

[CourseEight]

Thanks for posting these Tim! Here is the lone Amazonian piece from my collection. A friend says his father lived in Brazil and collected this mid-20th century, but it is just heresay. Closely matches the spear in your last photo I think.

[Tim Simmons]

That will be the next thing I need. In the meantime I have another club and still another to come. I have had to redo the whipping with a hemp cord for fear of loosing the woven pattern. The palm? cord that was on it was down to a few strands. There would have been hemp like cordage in the Amazon. I will bet that this was frequently done with what ever when ever needed. Nice to have one with the same pattern as in a museum book. :cool:

[Tim Simmons]

My latest Kayapo sword club, heavy 98cm long. Now I have these treasures the Brazilians with the Chinese can carry on turning the Amazon to tarmac, another 50 years and there might be a few Indian theme parks.

I took the hemp cord off and used raffia much more correct and just the same as seen in books.

[Tim Simmons]

I have picked up this really nice pole club. Not huge 71cm long the wood is surprisingly heavy for the size. It came from a Canadian collection of some really fabulous North American clubs. Obviously I did not stand a chance, you needed huge pockets to house a massive wallet and big belt plus suspenders to hold your pants up. Luckily the nasty bigger boys do not seem interested in South American stuff so I manage to slip in almost unnoticed. I am not completely sure it is Amazon regions but I am sure it is South American judging from what I have seen in varrious museums. What is funny is that is that this club is old, pretty sure its at least turn of the 19-20th century unlike my other Amazon clubs. I got it with shipping and taxes for less than any of the others. Which was rather nice. :cool: :eek:

[KuKulzA28]

I've got to say thanks for collecting these! I'm fascinated with North, Central, and South American indigenous weapons, but there just doesn't seem to be as much interest in them as antique swords, and I guess hence much less easily accessible literature. Glad you post these up, good to see these wooden poles, bats, and swords.

[Tim Simmons]

Two new friends from Brazil. They are both big clubs but it is hard to get a sence of scale from these basic pictures so I will post more when they arrive. The long sword like club is Kayapo and the big block type is Xavante which looks most interesting.

[fearn]

Cool new material, Tim.

F

[Tim Simmons]

They are here, that was quick. Very pleased to add them to my collection. The clubs were really inexpensive but the shipping costs were high, more than the cost of the clubs. Saying that the Xavante one which I especially like, to me is worth more than the money total. Lets start off with I know they are not "antique" as other weapons we collect. However they are not toys and all have been carried around by thier original owners for some time. The Xavante club is a fabulous specimen 1.875kg and I cannot resist showing it next to heavy Fiji clubs which members will be more familiar with. The Kayapo sword club is more narrow than I expected and has a small bit of damage at the handle end. I was hoping for the broader version, still to hunt down. Kayapo is a collective term. All my Kayapo clubs have similar handle ends. I suspect the differences are products of different Kayapo groups. The group of clubs look good together. My source said the long dark round club with grooves is a very nice piece of its type. Now being hard to find amonst the more modern generations of Kayapo.

[Tim Simmons]

Two more boys from Brazil. Interesting sword club. The other is a hefty 1.698KG and 97cm long, 7x6cm at the distal end. They came with labels that suggested Tapirape/Karaja from the Island of Bananal. Also similar to others I have that were labeled Karaja/Kayapo. There are subtle differences when under close inspection but whether there is identifying relevance I do not know. I would think it much like weapons from people in the Congo- the same or very similar designs and forms are seen in the various surrounding tribal groups. Interesting link help set the stage.

http://pib.socioambiental.org/en/povo/tapirape/1008

[colin henshaw]

A good looking group of clubs. Interesting to see variants in the woven grip designs, with those angular contrasting patterns that seem typical of the area.

[Tim Simmons]

New addition to the Amazon collection. It has still to arrive and I only have the one cropped picture. It is the club with the handle uppermost in the pictures. Wayana is only one group that this form may be found. The other pictures are from- the club without teeth additions

Amazonien Indianer der Regenwalder und Savannen, Museum fur Volkerkunde Dresden. Just listed as a flat club.

the other with Jaguar teeth- Arts of the Amazon- Thames and Hudson. Listed as a ceremonial club used by shaman in the ant shield ceremony.

My club has additions of Peccaries teeth. This form of club is found in the rain forest borders of the Guiana's.

This is a very interesting link that helps set the surroundings, about elusive people in this region.

http://www.kitlv-journals.nl/index.php/nwig/article/viewFile/5298/6065

[Tim Simmons]

I just thought I ought to add this comparison of iconography to what is clearly recognized as Amazonian.

[Tim Simmons]

Finally ready to show this. I know there is limited interest in this sort of thing. Just think about it? yes its not hundreds of years old but it is far from common and I have been informed of its rarity due to evangelism, let alone the small size of population. Poor versions are made for sale. A great deal of the "antique" weapons we collect are very common made in there millions but still seem to be rather expensive.
I have restored the missing tusks, thank you "weapons27" as the tusks were all damaged. Only one of the original tusks was usable after some super glue.

[T. Koch]

Wow, never seen peccary teeth used for anything before! How is the internal structure of the tooth - very much like that of a pig's, I imagine?

Mounted on the club, one can't tell the difference. You've done a good job of replacing them!

Thanks for putting it up Tim. This thread is really interesting, and I'm always excited to see you update with new stuff.


All the best, - Thor

[Tim Simmons]

I had concerns about Peccary v Feral Pig tusks. I do not know if the originals were one or the other. I have put my mind at rest as Feral Pigs have been in South America since the 16th century.

[KuKulzA28]

Finally ready to show this. I know there is limited interest in this sort of thing.
Don't worry, I'm sure there are those who are intrigued but unable to add much input. It was the same for Taiwanese aborignal knives - it's just not a collector's hot-spot so-to-speak. Nihonto, keris, Moro & Filipino, and Indo-Persian stuff is a whole 'nother story...
I for one am fascinated, but I don't have any authentic vintage/antique clubs or some immense wealth of knowledge ...I just have an old 70+ yr old set of apinaje bow and arrows, and it's Amazonian archery that I have more knowledge on.

More recently collected or not, this club is an example of their material culture, and even if it is a ceremonial-oriented object, or a warclub design no longer (if ever) used in war, it sheds light on what is, what was, and what may have been...

I did find this flat convex edged paddle-like club here at American Museum of Natural History: http://anthro.amnh.org/south

They are attributed to the Wayana - you probably knew already.


What interests me somewhat is that it resembles one of the paddle-club shapes that Walter Roth describes. Essentially Don Arp, Jr. breaks down Guianan clubs as "block", "spatulate", "paddle", and "dagger"... he is mainly drawing upon Walter Roth's work I think.
I am getting my information from here: http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1013&context=anthrotheses&sei-redir=1#search=%22Guianan%20block%20Club%22
That article has been posted on the Ethno. Arms & Armor forum before, in the macana/aputu thread.

Check page 15, the generalized shapes for the "paddle clubs" have one incomplete sketch on the right that resembles these Wayana clubs... Where-as the left-most I have seen attributed to Kali'na/Caribe and Makushi... and the centeral one I have seen in depictions of Arawaks/Lokonos.


These clubs, having two bulges and a spike remind me of an arawak club:
http://www.americanindian.si.edu/searchcollections/item.aspx?irn=209544&catids=0&areaid=26&regid=86&src=1-1&size=75&page=1
which looks relatively similar to the central sketch of paddle clubs in the Aputu article I linked to earlier...



:)

[Iain]

Finally ready to show this. I know there is limited interest in this sort of thing. Just think about it? yes its not hundreds of years old but it is far from common and I have been informed of its rarity due to evangelism, let alone the small size of population. Poor versions are made for sale. A great deal of the "antique" weapons we collect are very common made in there millions but still seem to be rather expensive.
I have restored the missing tusks, thank you "weapons27" as the tusks were all damaged. Only one of the original tusks was usable after some super glue.

Very nice restoration. I'm certainly interested in this sort of thing - I just have so little knowledge its hard to know what to say. :D I will say thank you, because threads like these end up providing more info than the rest of the Internet, particularly because the items in question are actually shown and not just written about. :)

[Tim Simmons]

Found this picture of the necklace of a Colombian Amazon Indian chief. The tusks have all been trimmed to some degree as I have had to to get the tusks to fit in the holes on the club which is really a cult item rather than a weapon. If you really needed to hit somebody, it would hurt. I am quite happy with the restoration.

[Tim Simmons]

I was emailed these two pictures of thr sort of made for sale versions that are found these days.

[Tim Simmons]

Yabahana, Rio Apaporis, E Colombia. Tusks.

[Tim Simmons]

The Brazil/south American section of my collection keeps growing with the addition of this splendid Ikpeng club. The first contact with the Ikpeng was 1960 so one cannot expect antique examples. There are signs of metal tools file? marks. Carved from a heavy dark palm wood 1.7kg. The current Ikpeng population is around 500 souls up from a post contact disease low of 50. I can only imagine that they are not the most common form of Amazon Indian club like those of the Kayapo and Karaja. This little educational film taken from youtube is pleasant to watch {as is the second part}. 3.08 minutes in two young boys pull clubs from the thatch and laughingly demonstrate there use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xafm2Edcgq8

The club has an unusual hollow carved into one side of the blade and small ridge at the very distal end on the other side. It is very comfortable in the hand. I also show it in a group of South Seas clubs. All except the Micronesian example next to the Ikpeng, are very common indeed yet command at the very least 3 times the money in the "market". They are all lighter in weight the new club is 104cm long.

[colin henshaw]

Interesting Tim, thanks for posting - your collection is certainly expanding...

[Tim Simmons]

Thanks Colin. A little bit of follow up to this new club. From, Museums fur Volkerkunde Dresden "Amazonien Indianer der Regenwalder und Savannen" Here the Ikpeng are called Txicao their language group. I am sure people will find the pictures interesting, the club is 115cm long.

[Sajen]

Amazing collection of Amazon clubs you have there Tim, congrats! :)

Regards,

Detlef

[colin henshaw]

Thought these recent finds (Amazonian club and beaded apron), would be best tacked onto Tim's thread. Northern Brazil/Southern Guyana ?

I do like those Amazon strong geometric designs...

Regards.

[KuKulzA28]

the bat looks like Kayapo weaponry to me :shrug:

I agree, some of them have very nice geometric weaving, like that one

[ashoka]

Just to show the range of size and shapes of some of these old Amazon Makana and Sapakana from Guyana/Guiana and Brazil, here are some photos of a friends collection, some nice examples pretty much showing all the forms used for bashing heads... enjoy! Stefan

[VANDOO]

WOW!!! WHAT A REMARKABLE COLLECTION SOMETHING THAT CAN ONLY HAPPEN IF YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT PLACE AND THRU MANY YEARS OF COLLECTING. THANKS FOR SHAREING :D

[ashoka]

Thanks Barry. Yes years of collecting and quite some dedication to the subject. These things in particular look good in a group. Apparantly once you have one you want them all...

[Sajen]

What a magnificent collection! Thanks to your friend and you for sharing.

Regards,

Detlef

[KuKulzA28]

I am in awe... there are so many real examples of clubs I have only seen sketches of. This is amazing.


Well, I can't possibly show that sort of volume... but, I got a Yanomamö dueling club recently. It, like most things made by them, are made of natural materials, with no decor, and relatively simple but effective. You can see them briefly in the famous "Axe fight" scene, here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnQqxDTA04Y#t=2m53s). They began fighting with roof poles, and normally would have escalated to a club duel with these wooden-sword/shortstaff style clubs... but it escalated right into an ax/machete fight.

These are incredibly rare in collections, I know of only 2, mine and the one in the American Museum of Natural History.

[VANDOO]

I WOULD THINK THE COLLECTOR WHO HAS THIS COLLECTION WOULD HAVE QUITE A LOT OF INFORMATION ON THESE WEAPONS AND COULD ANSWER MANY QUESTIONS.
I KNOW THE SHORT HOURGLASS SHAPED CLUBS SOMETIMES HAVE TRIBAL DESIGNS.
FOCUSING ON THEM.
1. DO DIFFERENT DESIGNS TELL WHICH TRIBE AND REGION THEY CAME FROM.?
2. ARE MOST OF THE TRIBES MAKEING THESE CLUBS COASTAL TRIBES OF CARIB ORIGIONS?
3. WHICH ONES ARE WAR CLUBS AND ARE SOME OF THESE CLUBS FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR TO DENOTE PRESTIGE OR RANK OF THE OWNER.?

[Tim Simmons]

Truly amazing collection. This collector must have a group of porters to carry the wallet.

[Sajen]

Want to post pictures from this Kayopo club which just ended on ebay without someone bid but think the price was ok.

[Tim Simmons]

I think the price was not too bad. For me +shipping +import tax +VAT too much for one of the more common club types.

[KuKulzA28]

I WOULD THINK THE COLLECTOR WHO HAS THIS COLLECTION WOULD HAVE QUITE A LOT OF INFORMATION ON THESE WEAPONS AND COULD ANSWER MANY QUESTIONS.
I KNOW THE SHORT HOURGLASS SHAPED CLUBS SOMETIMES HAVE TRIBAL DESIGNS.
FOCUSING ON THEM.
1. DO DIFFERENT DESIGNS TELL WHICH TRIBE AND REGION THEY CAME FROM.?
2. ARE MOST OF THE TRIBES MAKEING THESE CLUBS COASTAL TRIBES OF CARIB ORIGIONS?
3. WHICH ONES ARE WAR CLUBS AND ARE SOME OF THESE CLUBS FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR TO DENOTE PRESTIGE OR RANK OF THE OWNER.?

The hour-glass ones, you mean the Aputu?

They're mainly from the Carib and Arawak tribes. Caribs including island Carib, Kali'na, Ye'kwana, etc. and the related Makushi and other groups. The whole Guianas region had these clubs (French Guinana, Suriname, and Guyana).

I'm not sure about carvings or painting or designs denoting rank or tribal affiliation but I do know in more recent times there have been ones of poorer quality for tourism, or smaller seemingly less combat effective ones probably for dance... but all the really old ones seem at least 15-16" or a little more and made of quality hardwoods.

[Sajen]

I think the price was not too bad. For me +shipping +import tax +VAT too much for one of the more common club types.

Hello Tim,

yes understand. But it seems to have a nice patina and I have posted the pictures mainly for reference and you can see good at the pictures the original bindings at the end of the wooven grip.

Regards,

Detlef

[Tim Simmons]

This one sold very recently in Aus for a very good price. If I did not have one already I could have gone for it with all the shipping, customs duty and VAT add on. Looks as if it has a native plant juice lacquer? 80cm so a quite a bit shorter than the other one in the USA.

[Sajen]

This one sold very recently in Aus for a very good price. If I did not have one already I could have gone for it with all the shipping, customs duty and VAT add on. Looks as if it has a native plant juice lacquer? 80cm so a quite a bit shorter than the other one in the USA.

Very, very nice one. Could it be made from black wood?

Regards,

Detlef

[KuKulzA28]

Looks beautiful. I wonder how often they are lacquered... the Kayapo clubs you see today (used in protests moreso than fights now) come in a variety of finishes, roughly hewn out or finely sanded down, some look newly made and some look older.

For anyone who's interest (or just "for the record") here's (http://www.flickr.com/photos/evelynizquierdo/3249815234/) an example of Yanomami clubs from a museum in Venezuela. Seems to me, the Yanomami clubs are more roughly made than Shipibo, Kayapo, or many Guiana clubs... they're either sword-like 5-6' clubs made of palmwood, or 6'+ pool cue style staves often used in duels. I suspect the palmwood ones are more often used in war and for killing as the semi-sharp edges and material make killing easier... where-as the poles used in village duels (where opponents exchange blows on the head) is not usually lethal, but leaves nasty scars and concussions. Having said that, from my reading of Chagnon's works, it seems like in raids the Yanomami prefer to use their bows and arrows... but occasionally will use axes, machetes, and clubs in close - however a raid is considered a failure if even one of the raiders is killed by the enemy village...

[KuKulzA28]

Regarding Post #51 with the Ikpeng sword-bat

I found a video, at 3 minutes you see the kids showing two such clubs
the raised area on one side and the shallow furrow on the other is clear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TOirYOJEt4

:)

[Tim Simmons]

I took a picture of these two clubs in the Dhalem Berlin. They are from Micronesia. I cannot remember the exact Island group. I add them here just to show how similar they are to Amazon clubs.

[Tim Simmons]

From late last summer I made two purchases hoping to add to my collect but badly burnt my fingers on bad judgement. I console myself with the fact that things were a little troublesome at the time and you win some and you lose some when you gamble. However a New Year and a birthday too boot. So what about this. I am informed that it was collected by missionaries {1950s} from the Maquiritare peoples who inhabit areas of the extreme south of Venezuela and the border with Brazil, the area would have been part of the old idea of the Guyana's. Missionaries may have questionable motives but they have always been a good source of ethnographic material. 32 inches long, hard to get a good sense of it from one picture and not with similar pieces. Just have to go through a few weeks of waiting. What I do find immediately interesting is the difference in weave pattern when compared to the previous examples from much further south in this thread. When I have it I can make a more serious comparative study. In the meantime here is the item.

[VANDOO]

I LOOKED AT THE ITEM LAST NIGHT AND DECIDED TO PONDER ON IT FURTHER TODAY. GLAD TO SEE YOU GOT IT. :D
I JUST COULD NOT DETERMINE TO MY SATISFACTION IF IT WAS A WEAPON SYMBOLIC OR OTHERWISE OR SOME SORT OF IMPLEMENT. :confused: I DO BELIEVE THE INFORMATION OF AGE, LOCATION AND TRIBE AND WHO COLLECTED IT. A NICE AUTHENTIC TRIBAL NON-TOURIST ITEM. I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR ASSESMENT WHEN YOU RECEIVE IT. :cool:

[Tim Simmons]

I think I have seen pictures of other Amazon pronged weapons I will search.

I am keeping me fingers that this is a case of---- He who hesitates is lost, rather than ---- Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread. ;)

[colin henshaw]

I think I have seen pictures of other Amazon pronged weapons I will search.

I am keeping me fingers that this is a case of---- He who hesitates is lost, rather than ---- Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread. ;)


Its could be a native cigar-holder, I will see if I can dig up some pics...

[VANDOO]

I HAVE SEEN TWO SOUTH AMERICAN FORK LIKE ITEMS REFERED TO AS WEAPONS THAT WERE NOT AS WELL MADE AS YOUR EXAMPLE, I NEVER COULD MAKE UP MY MIND ON THEM EITHER. :) THE WOOD USED TO MAKE YOUR EXAMPLE APPEARS TO BE A VERY NICE DARK HEAVY RED WOOD CALLED PAU IN BRAZIL. I THINK YOU DID WELL AT THE PRICE EVEN IF IT IS NOT A WAR CLUB. IT IS HARD TO GET ANY OLDER GOOD QUALITY ITEMS FROM SOUTH AMERICA AND THE PRICES DEMANDED BY MANY DEALERS ARE USUALLY TOO HIGH FOR ME THESE DAYS.

[Tim Simmons]

Colin I know what you mean by cigar holder, The end without the prongs is slightly reminiscent of the curved ends of a cigar holder. This item is 32 inches long, the same length as the Sudan club in the center of these two Amazon clubs. So it is quite substantial and will have some weight. I have found this picture of an Amazon forked weapon. I am sure I have seen larger version but cannot find any. The Indians in this region get their dart and weapon poison from tree sap. All you would need is some sap on the prongs and you have an extremely deadly close quarter weapon. The sourcing of this poison and much more background information on the Maquiritare and surrounding peoples can be found by watching a 6 part documentary on "youtube"

The Mystery Mountain.

I cannot remember which part has the poison collecting, best watch it all. Mention is made of the dangers posed by missionaries. As soon as I have it I will be able to show with other clubs.

Thanks Barry, I hope I have done well this time.

[Tim Simmons]

Scroll down and all is reveled. I think I have been very lucky, as you can see my item has been well handled and has substance. :cool:

http://www.indian-cultures.com/cultures/yekuana-indians/

[VANDOO]

CONGRADULATIONS INDEED. SOMETIMES IT PAYS TO TAKE A LEAP AND NOT PONDER. :D THE ITEMS I HAD SEEN WERE LIKE THE TOURIST OR NEWLY MADE ONES WITH POOR WORKMANSHIP AND NO DECORATIVE FIBER WRAP. I NEVER COULD FIND ANY INFORMATION TO BE SURE THEY WERE A REAL TRIBAL OBJECT OR SOMETHING MADE UP OR A TOOL.
THIS LINK CLEARS THAT ALL UP. THE CLUB YOU HAVE IS LIKELY FOR CEREMONIE OR DANCE RATHER THAN WAR BUT THE 1950'S WAS EARLY CONTACT WITH THE OUTSIDE WORLD FOR MANY TRIBES. THAT BEING THE CASE YOUR EXAMPLE IS A GOOD OLD AUTHENTIC ONE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE FOR TRIBAL USE. THE HANDLE END APPEARS TO HAVE HAD SOME CORDS MOST LIKELY DECORATIVE IN THE PAST. THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS I WAS PONDERING IF THE PRONGS WERE STUCK IN SOMETHING AND CORDS TIED TO SOMETHING ELSE . I THOUGHT THAT ONE OUT TOO FAR :rolleyes:
HERE IS AN OLD BOOK PLATE SHOWING KALINA, CARIB WEAPONS, ECT. NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CURRENT CLUB BUT IT ADDS TO THE REFRENCE.

[VANDOO]

MY SHIP FINALLY CAME IN AND SUPRIZENLY THE CLUB WAS LOCATED ONLY 90 MILES FROM HOME AND FROM THE SAME SOURCE AS THE 3 PRONGED CLUB. IT WAS COLLECTED BY MISSONARIES IN THE 1950'S FROM THE MAQUIRITARE TRIBE ALSO KNOWN AS THE YEKUANA TRIBE. IT HAS DECORATIVE PARROT FEATHERS ATTACHED WITH A CORD AND IS IN GOOD SHAPE WITH A LABEL ATTACHED WITH COLLECTING DATA. 29.25IN. LONG.
pictures #1,2 &3
I WENT LOOKING AND FOUND ONE OF THE FORKED CLUBS I HAD SEEN QUITE A WHILE BACK AND GOT IT. IT HAS 3 PRONGS, MOST HAVE TWO PRONGS LIKE THE PICTURE OF THE DOUBBLE PRONGED YEKUANA DAGGER PICTURED ABOVE. THERE IS ALSO A SPECIMIN OF IT IN THE LARGE COLLECTION PICTURED IN THIS POST.
PICTURE #4 THREE PRONG. 43 INCHES LONG VILLAGE CARVER YEKUANA TRIBE, NAME AND PICTURE.
PICTURE #5 PERHAPS A MODERN VERSION OF CLUB #1
PIC. # 6. A 7 FOOT LONG VERSION OF THE 2 PRONGED FORM OF WEAPON.
PIC. 8 THRU 10 VARIATIONS OF TWO PRONGED CLUBS

[Tim Simmons]

That other club from the same source looks very nice. I had hoped I might get it too but I could not stretch my funds that far.

Anyway my forked club is finally here and I think it is great. As I suggested it is quite substantial and when put next to other weapons it is clearly not a toy. If your enemy traditionally went into battle wearing little more than some feathers, special body paint and a bit string tied around his doodah. Having this forked club thrust at him would really put him off. It needs a little care. When I find suitable fibers I will secure the weave and show more pictures

[VANDOO]

A VERY ATTRACTIVE FOURSOME AND FOUR DIFFERENT DESIGNS IN THE FIBER WRAPS. IT MAKES ONE WONDER HOW MANY DIFFERENT PATTERNS THERE ARE IN THE REGION AND THE MEANINGS OF EACH.

[Tim Simmons]

New picture of uncontacted peoples on the Peru Brazil border march 2014. Got this as yahoo news but not all of us will be with yahoo. So it is still out there. Clubs, where can I get one :eek: I want one :eek: I need one so badly :eek: :cool:

[VANDOO]

IT LOOKS LIKE THEY WOULD BE GLAD TO GIVE YOU THE CLUBS. IF YOU WON THE FIGHT YOU COULD EVEN KEEP THEM. :D OF COURSE THEY COULD BE FRIENDLY ITS JUST THAT THOSE NOISY HELICOPTERS INTURUPT THE NAP AND WAKE THE BABY. :rolleyes:
THE AMAZON IS ONE OF THE FEW REGIONS LEFT WHERE YOU MAY COLLECT A ETHINOGRAPHIC CLUB, SPEAR, ARROW OR POISON DART IN YOUR CARCASS. :eek:

[Tim Simmons]

I am reduced to bad picture gambling again. The risk is no more than a couple of burgers and fries with perhaps one of those horrible soft drinks burger places sell. This club is 37 inches long ans approx 3.5 inches in diameter. Plain simple clubs like this are known as Amazon weapons. The wood looks like it could do with some dressing, rather dry in these pics. When it arrives better judgment can be made. I show three clubs as a size comparison. On the left is a Shavanti Amazon club 40 inches long, diameter 3.75 inches. Centre Kayapo 38 inches long with a rectangular end 2.75 inches x 2.25 inches. On the right a Fijian club approx 37 inches long with a head diameter of approx 3 inches. You can see why I having taken a chance. Will show more in time.

[fireiceviper]

Just bought these in a lot yosterday, they both seem to be from that area (the club(spear?) and blowgun (although this could be fake!).

But the club is HUUUGE just under 2 meters, made of palmwood, the plug in the bottom is someone's stupid attempt to mount it i think. anyone have a tribe? or area?

As for the blowgun, tourist piece perhaps? made out of the same wood (palmwood) and i like the look of it, pretty complex work! someone tried to keep it all together by sticking band-aids on it.... :shrug: (look at the pictures )
This one could be fake, cuz the thatch-work doesn't look anything like the rest.

As for history off course i have none, but it was cheap; purchased in the Netherlands

[Tim Simmons]

Firstly my last item posted here turned out not to be what I was hoping.

I really like the heavy lance and I think that is a flat-pack furniture dowel stuck in the end. Can not tell much about the blowgun? from these pictures. All look genuine. Bought in the Netherlands, I would image these items are from the Guiana's the Dutch part being Suriname. I think you got a real bargain on that lance. :cool:

[fireiceviper]

It was in a lot with some "african" (tourist) spears and the reason i bought it is because i read this thread a couple of times!! it was indeed a real bargin, i got a nice Nande shield too in the same lot.

But to me its now about finding out which tribe? Surinam is a good place to start so i'll try there.

The prong in the bottom is definitely something some got from an ikea furniture kit ;)

The blowgun is a mystery to me too, i have never seen anything like it?(same lot though and same wood so could be same area).

So what happened to you last item Tim Simmons? what was it?


P.s. now i'm on the hunt for a Macana Club, man those things are beautiful!

[Tim Simmons]

:) Adding another club very similar to a Bora? club I already have. This one is a little more decorative with feathers also lacking a central ridge. Both are 60cm in length. I hope to show more when it arrives. :cool:

[fireiceviper]

So i bought another lot yesterday, it was found in a thrift store then purchased by me.

I'm not entirely sure if it's all from the same region (i dont think so!) but there is a nice bow and very nice arrows! also a wooden staff/spear made from the hardest wood i have ever seen and decorated with feathers.

Then there is a strange bowl made from i believe a palm seed husk? and also a strange wood stick (no clue) and a paddle (looks tourist to me)

[fireiceviper]

more pictures

[fireiceviper]

and more

[Tim Simmons]

I like the spear. Looks like it is very nice to have in your hands. What a great lot.

[fireiceviper]

I like the spear. Looks like it is very nice to have in your hands. What a great lot.

Thank you, it really feels great, very solid. one thing you might not directly notice in the pictures is that the bottom part of the spear is actually almost square while as you move up towards the tip the wood gets rounded.

Also i really like the fishing arrow and the blunt (for birds?) arrow although all of the arrows are missing there feathers (at the bottom).

Still no clue what the twisted piece of wood, the bowl or the paddle is

For the rest i'm thinking brazil/guyana/suriname area don't know a tribe yet but leaning more towards Surinam (like the last piece although very different/other tribe) as it was a form dutch colony and this was found in the Netherlands.

[fireiceviper]

Found a great resource for amazon weapons, its the American museum of national history database it is filled with beautiful clubs and others

Hope it can help someone http://anthro.amnh.org/south

[Tim Simmons]

Great adding to the thread. This has turned from a small inquiry into a massive thread.

My new club has arrived. Heavy for the size. The cotton decoration needed to be tidied up, very please with it.

On close inspection with a 10x loop the cotton binding originally filled the space between the handle binding with feathers and the other binding. There is the remains of a mastic that shows the imprint of the binding. This would cover a natural fissure in the wood, nothing to do with binding a broken club. The cotton is very thin and light weight.

[Tim Simmons]

The trouble with trying to restored lost cotton on these older Amazon clubs is getting a match. When you see hand spun cotton next to machine cotton, the difference is quite jarring to the eye. All my searches to buy handle spun cotton thread have been unsuccessful. All I can find is a sort of fancy art 'n' craft version

[Tim Simmons]

Finally got the right kind of hand spun raw cotton. I had to unravel one ply from the yarn and then sort of re-spin the yarn between thumbs and fore fingers. The match is near perfect through 10x loop except the colour being newer. To give the whipping some resilience, I smothered mucilage glue all over. This would be much the same as the mastic originally used. Any Amazonian native would re-bind their club as and when needed.

[Tim Simmons]

This is where my latest example come from. My example is 4cm shorter.
http://americanindian.si.edu/searchcollections/item.aspx?irn=273297&objtype=Hunting/Fishing/Warfare&objid=Club&page=2

[fireiceviper]

I realy like it!

I was at a fair today (tribal art) and saw 4 war clubs from the amazon; 2 macana's and a long broad thatched one and a ceremonial one.

I was surprised nobody knew the other names for macana though (boutou, aputu or pootoo)

[VANDOO]

PICTURES #1 THRU #6 ARE OF TWO ITEMS A CEREMONIAL SPEAR/ CLUB USUALLY CARRIED BY THE CHIEF OR PRIEST OF THE TRIBE. AND A MORE TRADITIONAL FORM OF DOUBLE ENDED CEREMONIAL SPEAR. BOTH SPEARS AROUND 6 FEET LONG OF BLACK PALM WOOD ONE COATED IN VARNISH.
THE LARGEST NUMBER OF PEOPLE FROM THE TRIBE ARE AROUND ALDEA BRAZIL. THE TRIBE IS POLITICALLY ACTIVE TODAY TRYING TO KEEP THEIR LANDS AND TO PROTECT THE TRIBE. PICTURES #7 THRU #12 TRIBAL OR SPIRITUAL LEADERS OR TUWE OF THE TRIBE ONE HOLDING A SPEAR /CLUB SIMILAR TO MINE. TRIBAL GROUPS WITH COMMON POLE CLUBS DURING A CEREMONIAL DANCE.

[VANDOO]

THE HUNI KUIN ALSO KNOWN AS KAXINAWA TRIBE WERE DISCOVERED IN 1948 AND THERE ARE AROUND 2500 IN THE TRIBE TODAY AND THEY ARE TRYING TO KEEP THEIR CULTURE AND SPIRITUAL BELIEFS. MANY AMAZON TRIBES HAVE VANISHED OR LOST THEIR CULTURES IN THE AMAZON TUWE ALSO HELPS ORGANIZE AND PROTECT THEM THRU THE ASSOCIATION.
#1. PICTURE OF SPEAR HEAD. #2. MEETING OF ASSOCIATION OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE WITH TUWE OF THE HUNI KUIN TRIBE AND DALI LAMA OF TIBET #3. CEREMONIAL DANCE AT VILLAGE.

[VANDOO]

FIRST CONTACT OCTOBER 1996 AROUND 200 MEMBERS IN TWO GROUPS TODAY. LIVE IN WESTERN AMAZON BASIN IN JAVARI VALLEY BRAZIL. THE TRIBE PREFERS TO BE CALLED DSLALA NOT THE OTHER FORIGNER NAMES FOR THEM. LARGE CLUBS AND BLOW PIPES ARE THEIR WEAPONS AND THERE HAVE BEEN VIOLENT ENCOUNTERS WITH OUTSIDERS. THE CLUB IS VERY LARGE AND HEAVY 55 INCHES LONG, THREE QUARTERS INCH DIAMETER AT BUTT END AND 2&1/2 IN. DIAMETER AT STRIKING END. THE STRIKING END IS ROUNDED IN SHAPE LIKE A BASEBALL BAT. THIS EXAMPLE WAS MADE WITH PRIMATIVE TOOLS IN THE JUNGLES COLLECTED IN THE EARLY DAYS OF CONTACT.

[VANDOO]

HERE IS A LINK TO A POST ON A NICE VARIATIATION OF A KAYAPO TRIBE, CLUB AND A COUPLE OF PICTURES FOR THE REFRENCE.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19693

[fireiceviper]

Found this in an ethnographic dealers gallery, he gave me more then a fair price for it.. collected before the 70s-80s

[VANDOO]

A VERY NICE EXAMPLE WITH ALL THE TRIBAL DECORATIONS STILL INTACT AND IN EXCELLENT SHAPE. LIKELY MADE FOR SPECIAL OCCASIONS OR CEREMONIES OR FOR A SYMBOL TO BE CARRIED BY SOMEONE OF IMPORTANCE OR BEING HONORED BY THE TRIBE. DID THEY HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON WHICH COUNTRY OR TRIBE? THANKS FOR POSTING :cool:

[Tim Simmons]

I have this information on this spear taken from " AMAZONIEN Indianer der Regenwalder und Savannen, Museums der Volkerkunde Dresden 2009 " The spear illustrated was collected from the Mundurucu. It is listed as ceremonial spear 1970. I think you have a nice thing. If kept well feathers can last centuries.

[fireiceviper]

According to the American museum of national History its from the RIKBAKTSÁ tribe in brazil. so now we have 2 tribes :shrug:


http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/databases/common/image_dup.cfm?catno=40.1%2F%205738

[Tim Simmons]

From a little research it seems that RIKBAKTSÁ is more of a culture language region rather than a specific people. Rather like the different but related peoples of the EU that speak French. This map from Wikipedia of the RIKBAKTSÁ "tribe" is in the same vicinity as the German publication so they are both correct.

[Tim Simmons]

This is my latest amazon club. From the Krikati of Maranhao state Brazil. The same state as the Ka'apor club last post. When I have it I will show more details and comparison with others.

[fireiceviper]

Looks nice, can't wait for better pictures... is the lack of a point on flat clubs a region thing?

[fireiceviper]

Also have some new arrows on the wall, the cotton string ones look more recent.

Regions unknown,

[Tim Simmons]

Nice collection.

[VANDOO]

A NICE COLLECTION INDEED. :) QUITE A NICE SELECTION OF ARROWS FROM FISHING TO STUN TYPES. IN YOUR LAST PICTURE THERE ARE 3 CLUBS ON THE WALL DO YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON THE MIDDLE ONE WITH THE NOTCHES? I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A PICTURE OF IT TO COMPARE WITH SOMETHING I HAVE THAT LOOKS SIMILAR. THANKS BARRY

[Tim Simmons]

Finally here. Very interesting sword club. Too me the timber looks rather exotic. I think I might have been very lucky that it past customs {wood with a Brazil postage mark}. Dense heavy hard wood with an unusual colour. Now the Amazon collection is growing the regional styles are starting to be apparent. The club is 93cm long and the main part is 4cm x 3cm with a two hand grip. It is rather like a heavy bokken without a curve. Not old but clearly not new either, the distal end has been it contact with the ground through use as a walking staff. As this type of material is not "antique" and little understood while market demand is low it is not expensive. I have to ask as the Krikati is some low thousands of soles, who else has one? and how common? The geometric form is curious and the precision around the pommel is nice. It has the look of a constructivist sculpture with pure form and geometric clean lines.

[fireiceviper]

@ Tim Simmons

Love The club, really has that nice heavy look to it, probably super rare (but we wont know that in lets say 50 years...) does the wood almost feel like plastic because of its density?

@ VANDOO

It is actually the one from a few posts back! but I've made some better pictures...


Edit: the pictures are in the wrong order......

[Tim Simmons]

My latest, Kayabi. It is new-ish made for festival. They can be bigger but very hard to find. The pattern is cotton and cane. The cotton is painted with a resin so it is made hard and red coloured. Even in Indian lands fights most happen just as in our world. Shown with some Melanesian clubs of the same size.

[VANDOO]

A VERY NICE ATTRACTIVE CLUB TIM. :) ALSO GREAT TO SEE A PICTURE OF A TRIBESMAN WITH ONE.
FIERCEVIPER THANKS FOR THE PICTURES OF THE SPEAR WITH THE NOTCHES THE SPEAR POINT AND PROTRUSIONS REMINDS ME OF A FORM USED BY THE KAXINAWA TRIBE AKA. HUNI KUIN FROM BRAZIL.

#1 AND #2. A CEREMONIAL CLUB OR STAFF FROM THE AMAZON 34.5 IN. LONG X 1.5 IN DIAMETER. IT HAS SIMILAR NOTCHES BUT I AM NOT SURE WHAT GROUP IT COMES FROM OR OF ITS USE.

#3 thru #6 A SHORT DANCE SPEAR KAXINAWA TRIBE 26.5 IN. LONG

[fireiceviper]

@Tim Simmons

Wow like it it! but i like the small melanesian club (new caeldonian?) more! very nice!

@Vandoo

Thanks Vandoo, very similar indeed! i'm gonna research that region more,thank you! I also found another angle I came across some pictures (of a similar style spear with the same type of feather work as mine from the surinam region (its a stock photo site so i can't copy it or post it here).

The small dance spear I've seen before but i have some doubts about it...looks a little bit crude in comparison to the rest, but i could be wrong!

[VANDOO]

THE SMALL DANCE SPEAR IS FAIRLY RECENT AND WAS MADE USING MODERN TOOLS POSSIBLY FOR TRIBAL CEREMONIES BUT LIKELY FOR SALE TO TOURISTS. ITS ACTUALLY WELL MADE FOR A SOUVENIR AND DOES HAVE SOME OF THE TRADITIONAL TRIBAL DESIGN I ASSOCIATE WITH THE KAXINAWA TRIBE. THERE IS A PICTURE OF SOME MORE OF THE TRIBES PEOPLE AND WEAPONS EARLIER IN THIS POST. I COULD BE WRONG AS OTHER TRIBES MAY MAKE THIS FORM OF SPEAR BUT SO FAR THE ONLY EXAMPLES I HAVE SEEN WERE FROM THIS TRIBE, SO ITS A GOOD PLACE TO START LOOKING.

[fireiceviper]

I know it's not really a weapon, but i thought i'd share :) I believe its from the Guyana/Surinam Area.. ( I also found another bow and arrow set, but haven't had time for pictures yet, but trust me its nice with feathers :) )

[Houkura]

Hi Folks. First post here. I found this site researching a club I purchased several months ago and figured now that I am enrolled I would share some photos of the club. From the Smithsonian website I found the club is what they call a "Shipibo Sword Club". It's quite heavy and has very sharp edges. Could cut through about anything. Very nice patina. The unusual aspect is where there is usually a sort of woven "rattan" covering on the handle this club has a native made cotton cover-probably a replacement but still pretty early. There is an old storage label from a "Bekins Moving" (an American moving company) in Albuquerque and the seller said it was in a small museum in New Mexico in the 50's. I collect Polynesian clubs and objects and a little African so this is out of my wheelhouse but it was so cheap and looked quite nice so I pulled the trigger. Any info on this club welcome. I've really enjoyed this thread and others-thanks... Sorry the photos are a little dark! I'll post one first to see if I'm doing it right...


http://postimg.org/image/ul34vovit/

[Houkura]

So-that was my first post here and I failed on the photo upload of course. Here are photos of the club... Sorry they are a bit dark-will do better next time. Incremental improvements...

[Tim Simmons]

Would like to see it but no pics so far.

[kronckew]

i see the pics. nice club. i like it...

[Sajen]

So-that was my first post here and I failed on the photo upload of course. Here are photos of the club... Sorry they are a bit dark-will do better next time. Incremental improvements...

Welcome to the forum! Nice club. :)

Regards,
Detlef

[VANDOO]

WELCOME TO THE FORUM. :)
A VERY NICE OLD EXAMPLE. MY TWO SHIPIBO CLUBS EARLY IN THIS POST WERE OF A LIGHTER SOFTER WOOD AND HAVE THE TRADITIONAL SHIPIBO TRIBAL DESIGNS ON THE BLADES. I SUSPECT MY TWO ARE MORE FOR DANCE , PRESENTATION OR TOURISTS RATHER THAN FIGHTING. THERE IS A GOOD HEAVY EXAMPLE IN THE NATURAL HISTORY MUSEUM IN NEW YORK CITY THAT HAS THE TRIBAL DESIGNS SO PERHAPS THERE WAS A PERIOD OF OVERLAP BETWEEN WEAPON AND CEREMONIAL USE. :confused:
IS THERE ANY TRACE OF TRIBAL DESIGN ON YOUR CLUB?

[Tim Simmons]

Nice, got some age . I want one.

[Houkura]

WELCOME TO THE FORUM. :)
A VERY NICE OLD EXAMPLE. MY TWO SHIPIBO CLUBS EARLY IN THIS POST WERE OF A LIGHTER SOFTER WOOD AND HAVE THE TRADITIONAL SHIPIBO TRIBAL DESIGNS ON THE BLADES. I SUSPECT MY TWO ARE MORE FOR DANCE , PRESENTATION OR TOURISTS RATHER THAN FIGHTING. THERE IS A GOOD HEAVY EXAMPLE IN THE NATURAL HISTORY MUSEUM IN NEW YORK CITY THAT HAS THE TRIBAL DESIGNS SO PERHAPS THERE WAS A PERIOD OF OVERLAP BETWEEN WEAPON AND CEREMONIAL USE. :confused:
IS THERE ANY TRACE OF TRIBAL DESIGN ON YOUR CLUB?


Thanks for the warm welcome all.

Vandoo-there is none of the tribal design on the blade. All the examples in the Smithsonian have thedesign as well-including a couple very early ones. I think it is more normal to have the design. Mine just doesn't but it still appears quite old. I've really enjoyed your posts-keep it up. This is my only South American club but maybe I will post more of my Polynesian material soon...

[KuKulzA28]

Houkura, that is a very nice club, even if not decorated... congrats!

[Gavin Nugent]

Congrats on such a fine example Houkura.

The type is its plain form is one I would be proud to display with my Amazon clubs.

Gavin

[fireiceviper]

Very nice club, don't worry about the markings some have it, some don't !

here is another example similar to yours!


http://www.nmai.si.edu/searchcollections/item.aspx?irn=209363&catids=1&cultxt=shipibo&src=1-1

[Tim Simmons]

This is my latest Amazon club. Origin Hixkaryana speaking peoples Para state Brazil and some related groups on the Brazil/Guyana border. I like to show how weapons of a size and form vary world wide so I show it with a big bully from the New Hebrides, Australia and Africa. Hixkaryana have much conflict with miners and loggers. Miner caught in Para Amazon. Like gold in Them there hills!

1998 report on violence in Para,
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/brazil/mining.htm

[Tim Simmons]

Guajajara club 98cm long so looks to be quite substantial. Nice handle but these pictures do not give you the best view of how it is woven. When I get it I can make better assessment.

[Tim Simmons]

While I wait for the arrival of this club towards the end of the month. I thought I would add this picture of the after affects of club fighting. The link puts the picture in context for those who might be interested in weapons and violence in the Amazon rain forest.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/06/10/the-yanomamo-and-the-origins-of-male-honor/

[kronckew]

so, nothing much different than the rest of the world. ;)

[Tim Simmons]

just adding my photos. It seems to have had considerable use.

[Tim Simmons]

Just received this nice Karaja sword club. Would split your skull and bones easily. Look good in a size grouping. I would like, no, need a large version.

[colin henshaw]

Just received this nice Karaja sword club. Would split your skull and bones easily. Look good in a size grouping. I would like, no, need a large version.

Fine piece with a good form. Congratulations...

[fireiceviper]

Just received this nice Karaja sword club. Would split your skull and bones easily. Look good in a size grouping. I would like, no, need a large version.

Very nice one Tim! i would love to have one with the threads on the sides! the club above it is a little bit later but! made of the right wood, and if i remember correctly cannot be exported anymore.

I also found a couple of things a nice things, a Tapirapé war club and a couple of bow and arrows from guyana/surinam. (pic 1 war club) (pic 2 bow and arrow 1) (pic 3 bow and arrow 2) (pic 4 and 5 bow and arrow 3)

[Tim Simmons]

I'm loving it. That's a really fine club. There's great stuff from the Amazon/ South America the trouble is finding it.

[VANDOO]

HERE IS A PICTURE OF A MACANA CLUB FROM GUIANA , BRAZIL. ITS NOT A VERY GOOD PICTURE BUT SHOWS AN EXAMPLE WITH A STONE CELT BLADE INSERTED.

[fireiceviper]

Found a nice spear, although i'm not sure of the exact origins. I found something similar in the Oldman catalogues, he describes it as Rio Napo. (227 cm)

[Tim Simmons]

Deep envy. :cool:

[KuKulzA28]

Very nice aputu with an axe blade in it!

Really appreciate you guys posting these up, want one but vicariously it'll be for now ;)

[VANDOO]

PICTURE #1. MACANA CLUB GUYANA OR BRAZIL.
#2. MACANA CLUB, 18TH. CENTURY, GUYANA, BRAZIL BORDER, 18.45 INCHES
OR 45.8 CM. LONG.
#3. MACANA , GUYANA OR BRAZIL
#4, #5. AND #6. IDENTIFIED AS A KAPAPO OR CARAJA CLUB, NORTH BRAZIL
, 41.5INCHES LONG.

[Tim Simmons]

I am waiting for this Kayabi club. The picture is not the best but have been informed that all is sound and okay. It is a good size 112cm. More pictures on arrival.

[VANDOO]

HERE IS A PALM WOOD SPEAR WITH A BONE TIP. IT IS SIMILAR TO SOME POSTED PREVIOUSLY ONE IS THE FIRST POST ON PAGE 2 OF THIS TOPIC.
#1. TWO METERS LONG, PALM WOOD, BONE POINT, FIBER WRAP WITH FEATHERS,BRAZIL, ARAGUAYA RIVER
TIM I LOOK FORWARD TO PICTURES OF THE NEW CLUB. :)

[Tim Simmons]

Update, not long now finally on the long journey to me. For the time being some interesting info on conflict in the early to mid 20th century.

https://pib.socioambiental.org/en/povo/kaiabi/273

[Tim Simmons]

I have it. Is nice. The only fly in the ointment is two screw hole damage where it has been mounted on a display board. I can sort that out. Made of a palm wood and stained black. 114 cm long. I wonder why, as with similar form clubs from different people of the same local, there is a carved concave curve to one side of the distal end? I suppose we will never know? I am showing it next to two Fijian clubs it illustrate the value for money Amazon clubs are. They may not have the collector desire glossy patina but there are a lot less of them.

[VANDOO]

NICE ONE TIM, I ESPECIALLY LIKE THAT THE WOVEN FIBER IS INTACT. AS TO THE CONCAVE SIDE AT THE CLUBS STRIKING END MANY TYPES OF PALM TREE HAVE A HARD OUTER PART TO THE TRUNK WITH A SOFTER INNER PART. THAT'S JUST THE OPPOSITE OF MOST HARD WOOD TREES WHICH ARE DICOTS. IF I AM CORRECT PALM TREES FALL INTO THE MONOCOT TYPE. IT COULD HAVE BEEN MADE THAT WAY TO USE FOR SCOOPING SOMETHING IF THEY USED WAR CLUBS FOR MULTI- PURPOSE TOOLS I MAY AS WELL LINK THE OTHER THREAD ON SOUTH AMERICAN CLUBS TO THIS ONE TOO.

:shrug:http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21882

HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF ANOTHER FORM OF SOUTH AMERICAN CLUB POSSIBLY FROM THE APARI OR WAYANA TRIBES. BRAZIL REGION ALONG THE PARU DE LESTE RIVER. A TYPE OF CLUB USED BY SHAMAN THE CLUB IS CALLED KAPARU.
#1. FIRST CLUB NOT MINE SIZE UNKNOWN BUT LIKELY OF SIMILAR AGE AND SIZE AS #2. .
#2, #3. MY CLUB 24 AND ONE QUARTER INCHES LONG CARVED DESIGNS BOTH SIDES, COTTON CORDS
#4. SIMILAR CLUB AND DESIGN MORE RECENT EXAMPLE WITH PIG TEETH ADDED AND PAINTED BLACK.MINE 29.5 INCHES LONG.
#5. & #6. COLLECTED FROM THE TRIBE ALONG THE PARU DE LESTE RIVER, 31 AND THREE QUARTERS INCH LONG, 6 IN. WIDE. LATE 1990'S FEATURED IN A DISPLAY AT THE SAINT LOUIS MUSEUM. I BOUGHT THE CLUB FROM THE COLLECTOR/ DEALER MR. GRIMM IN 2013. MR. GRIMM SUPPLIED QUITE A LOT OF MUSEUMS WITH THEIR COLLECTIONS AND DID SOME EXHIBITS AND AUCTIONED A LARGE AMOUNT OF SOUTH AMERICAN TRIBAL ITEMS. ARTEPRIMITIVO HAD SOME CATALOGS FULL OF A WIDE RANGE OF THE THINGS HE COLLECTED AND ARE A GOOD REFERENCE. HE WAS ROBBED AND KILLED IN BRAZIL AROUND 2014 ON HIS 93 RD. COLLECTING EXPEDITION. I LOST A FRIEND AND WE ALL LOST A TRUE EXPERT AND A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE AS WELL. HE WAS MARRIED TO A MEMBER OF THE YANAMO TRIBE AND HAD VISITED MANY VILLAGES AND TRIBES OVER THE YEARS. THE MOST DANGEROUS JUNGLES IN BRAZIL LIKE THE U.S.A. ARE THE CITIES AND THAT IS WHERE HE LOST HIS LIFE. :(

[Tim Simmons]

Barry, I do not think the hollow at the distal end is due to the pith under the hard wood of palm timber. You can see from these new pictures rather bright as the flash was on, that the hollow is within the hard wood being virtually a continuation of the main solid club. There must be some other reason for this feature? Also the strange pointy tip on the convex side. Interesting similaities between the Kayabi club and the Ikpeng club. Both made of palm wood, though they are different palm timbers. The Kayabi is a lighter brown timber and although a larger club at 1.433kg. The Ikpeng club smaller, of a dark brown to black timber is 1.628kg. Like combatants in other parts of the world. Conflicts are fought with very similar weapons of differing styles.

Interesting extract about conflict and contact.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20203741?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

The black and white aerial photo of Kayabi village was taken 1958.

[KuKulzA28]

Reminds me of the cross-section of many Dayak parangs, concave on the inside. Maybe it improves the chopping potential of the club if used to strike on a particular trajectory? After all these bladed clubs were intended to chop into the opponent rather than just bludgeon them. Cleaner bone breaks and perhaps a little cleaving into the flesh.

Shipibo and "Kayapo" clubs don't feature this - but then again that means they'll be easily used to strike on any practical swing.

:shrug:

[Tim Simmons]

Nice examples found here- http://fotoweb.pesquisakino.com:8080/Grid.fwx?archiveId=5000&SF_LASTSEARCH=%28IPTC025+contains+%28arma+indigena %29%29&SF_FIELD1_GROUP=1&SF_GROUP1_BOOLEAN=+&SF_FIELD1_MATCHTYPE=all&SF_FIELD1=borduna&SF_SEARCHINRESULT=0&doSearch=pesquisar

[Tim Simmons]

That link seems not working now, so I have saved the pictures and add them in this reply.

[colin henshaw]

That link seems not working now, so I have saved the pictures and add them in this reply.

Some interesting sculptural club forms Tim, thanks for posting. What institution is it ?

[VANDOO]

I AM GLAD TO SEE THE PICTURES POSTED SITES AND PICTURES OFTEN GO MISSING LEAVING US WITH A GAP IN FORUM POSTS. I DIDN'T GET A TRANSLATION ON THESE PICTURES BUT FROM WHAT I SAW IT APPEARS THEY ARE KAYAPO TRIBE BRAZIL. A NICE RANGE OF EXCELLENT EXAMPLES.

[Tim Simmons]

These pictures are from the; Memorial of Indigenous Peoples - Brasilia DF 2016

[Tim Simmons]

I have been lucky to acquire another Wayana club. Which prompted more searching for information on the form. Finally I used the right wording and found all I need in a dissertation from Florida University for a doctorate.

The club is known as a Kapalu carried by chief/shaman important enough to be carried on the shoulder of a minion to event of use. It is a war club but ceremonial representing awesome power not unlike nuclear weapons in our minds. The spike end is used to support the club upright in the grouned by the hammock of the chief. The real use of these and war clubs has more or less ended at the close of the 20th century. The link has so much information. The most relevant pages are 372-374 for greater learning.

The new acquisition is the dark painted example. From the shipping cost I think it is made from a soft light wood which is usual, the other example is a heavy hard wood. Lesser quality versions are made as trade items.

http://etd.fcla.edu/UF/UFE0041100/duin_r.pdf

This example is from French Guiana. This Christian mission site like has some interesting stats:

http://www.peoplegroups.org/explore/GroupDetails.aspx?peid=16344#topmenu

Yet more Stats

https://intercontinentalcry.org/indigenous-peoples/wayana/

Missionary with Wayana 1955

[Tim Simmons]

Here now and is made of a lighter weight of wood. I must research the patterns as they do have a meaning.

[Tim Simmons]

I am changing my mind on the exact function of this new addition to my Amazon collection. I have found more useful information in;

The British Museum Publication, "Unknown Amazon" 2001. Chapter 11, One Blow Scatters the Brains, Warwick Bray. Retired Professor of Latin American Archaeology at the institute of Archaeology, University College London. He has conducted field work in Colombia {including Colombia Amazonas} and Ecuador, and a specialist in the study of Pre- Columbian metalwork. HE authored "The Gold of El Dorado 1977" and co-edited "The Archaeology of Mesoamerica: Mexican and European Perspectives"

I have uploaded the relevant pages and hope I am not breaking any forum rules {if so please inform me so I can rearrange the text} Note where the page turns. The fact is that the distinction between ceremonial and war club can be blurred. Reading this fact made me look again at the new club. Perhaps it is not as light and soft wood as I first assumed. Her it is shown with a PNG Kukukuku club. The PNG club weighs 950 g and clearly a weapon. The Wayana club weighs 1.140 kg. This club is also comfortable in the hand. The old unpainted Wayana club is an unwieldy 2.005 kg and the handle is just that much smaller and carved in a shape that is not comfortable to grip for serious use. So I have changed my opinion on the latest Wayana club, it is of fighting weight being able to deliver as much brain scattering blows as many nut brown heavily patina collector must have clubs. I could show many with it. Happy happy :cool:

[VANDOO]

GOOD INFORMATION TIM. AN INTERESTING ITEM CLOSED ON EBAY A SIMILAR STYLE OF CLUB SAID TO BE FROM THE SEMINOLE TRIBE IN FLORIDA. IT IS SAID TO BE SET WITH REAL SHARK TEETH AND WOUND WITH VEGETABLE FIBERS LATE 19TH TO EARLY 20TH CENTURY. 38.7 CM. OR 15.25 INCH. THE SEMINOLE ( NOT THEIR ORIGINAL NAME) LIVED IN FLORIDA THE ATAKAPAWS IN LOUISIANA AND THE KARANKAWAS ON GALVESTON ISLAND TEXAS. NO DOUBT OTHER TRIBES LIVED ALONG THE COAST AS WELL. THE CULTURES AND CUSTOMS WERE MUCH THE SAME ALL ALONG THE GULF COAST AND ALL WERE VERY SIMILAR TO THE CARIBS. SO NO DOUBT THE CLUB FORMS HAD SIMILARITY'S AS WELL AS THE RECIPES ON HOW TO SERVE MAN MANY WERE SAID TO BE CANNIBALS. :D

[Gavin Nugent]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20766&highlight=amazon+dart

One of my artefacts on display here.

Gavin

[Tim Simmons]

Having had more time to study this new piece I am even more convinced that it is a fighting piece, as much as may be used in ceremonials. There are points to consider for this thinking.

It is stated by researchers that the line between actual violent function and ceremony is not absolute.

From the early to mid 20th century and indeed later. A Wayana village would consist of a few extended families with just enough outsiders brought in by what ever means to keep the gene pool healthy {probably not that different today}

A community without a strong social hierarchy and the need for artists to make lavish emblems of rank and distinction. A group of people with no standing army, though all males would constitute a warrior group when needed. Would not fight in a massed battle or hierarchicaly organised conflict. War would be feud and vendetta raids or ambush on individuals or small groups and possibly though I would think rare village on village. The technology and arsenal is sticks, stones, bones and what ever can be made into a weapon.

Looking at the two examples, starting with the really far too heavy tan coloured piece. The picture shows the only original peccary/boar tooth {the others were very similar but spit into too many pieces to restore} which is as taken from the porcine jaw natural and curved. This will not work as an impact weapon

Look at the teeth on the black painted club all have been ground, as no file marks can be found , to a shorter straight point which would function as an impact weapon. Sorry my pictures are not expert. This weapon could inflict nasty wounds, punctures, slashes and more. How would you like a pig tusk stuck in your head? it would be scary? hard to fight back, then just hit even harder with the wood. When all this is thought about I think it is a very uncommon find. You know where you can stick your ubiquitous, over priced Fijian Ulas, clubs and more. :eek: :cool:

[Tim Simmons]

Some more information on this type of Wayana club until the 1950s. Scroll down to read the information on item 1969.68.
http://www.horniman.ac.uk/collections/stories/guyana-collections-at-the-horniman/story-chapter/clubs

[Tim Simmons]

Found this article showing traditional clubs and guns against loggers in the Amazon. Ka'apor clubs like mine but much bigger.

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2014/09/amazon-warriors-fight-for-their-trees/100805/