Unusual shape Chinese?? Spear/ Polearm

[Nathaniel]

Now that this piece is sold, I was wondering what people's thoughts are on this spear/ polearm?

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=4184

The blade shape is not one I've seen before.

The engraving/etch on the blade looks similar to Vietnamese.

The silver collar reminds me of Thai/ Burmese, etc

Any thoughts????

[Nathaniel]

Anyone????

[Iain]

Seems more Thai/Burmese to me. As you noted the collar in particular. The form isn't that much of a stress of the slightly curved dha bladed pole arms I've seen before from Thailand.

Here's a shot I found quickly on google of a bunch of Thai pole arms. http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/image/36570994/original

Blades aren't visible but some of them look rather straight and could fit the bill.

Overall I like the piece a lot, a pity these often have the shaft cut.

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Nathaniel,

Since our previous conversations I've delved a little further and I now have seen another complete example and its context with other Thai arms. After viewing this piece, I am convinced this is Thai, not Chinese.

Hard to call it a spear in the pure sense as I couldn't imagine this type of weapon to be thrown, there is just no symetrical balance to it, so perhaps a 'pike' is a more apt name.
In line with a pike, I see these as a thrusting weapon or to be dug in to the ground to brace against an onslaught, one that may be quite effective in numbers against an Elephant with that thick weighted head?

Gav

[Nathaniel]

Hi Nathaniel,

Since our previous conversations I've delved a little further and I now have seen another complete example and its context with other Thai arms. After viewing this piece, I am convinced this is Thai, not Chinese.

Hard to call it a spear in the pure sense as I couldn't imagine this type of weapon to be thrown, there is just no symetrical balance to it, so perhaps a 'pike' is a more apt name.
In line with a pike, I see these as a thrusting weapon or to be dug in to the ground to brace against an onslaught, one that may be quite effective in numbers against an Elephant with that thick weighted head?

Gav

Thanks guys for chiming in....non quite sure it's Thai....definitely not standard among the common pantheon of Thai polearms. Even though the collection you are talking about Gavin was pictured with other Thai polearms, no one is clear though that it's Thai...there are some examples I've seen of Thai & Burmese polearms which have a knife like blade (ie sharp only on one side)...some symmetrical some not...and I've been told their influence is from southern China....still none of them have this unique shape:confused: Can anyone think of other examples of polearms that are more knife blade shape like???

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Nathaniel,

The collection spoken of speaks to me as a whole, more as Thai in full context and it also coincides with other spears and polearms known in the same vein that are definately Thai. In particular, although not unique to Thailand, materials used such as the type of bamboo shafts and types of collars are good pointers. Even a number of the longest and highest end examples I have seen of quality Thai spears are on sturdy rather unrefined looking bamboo shafts. What I have also noted though and more so in Iain's link provided, is that these pieces in the Palace museum seen to have more refined timber shafts and a standardised type of collar :shrug: ..maybe a regional thing, maybe a military thing, maybe a royal thing???
IMHO only, the consistancy of design traits at this point in time, along with similar blade stylings seen in the context of the collection, points to this region for me.
As Spears of SEA are a rather unexplored, I for one would love to see more work done on the subject....if the weren't so expensive to ship I'd be buying more, I love them long pointy SEA spears ;-)

Gav

[Emanuel]

Hello,

Some time ago a gentleman on another forum posted an identical pole-arm along with a collection of Thai spears. He had purchased all of them in Thailand but could not recognize this blade style in the usual patterns. It came with a scabbard, which I thought was very similar to Indonesian tombak scabbards. This may, of course, just be a case of similar functional solutions than anything else.

Emanuel

[Peter Dekker]

The engraved features on the blade remind me of Vietnamese weapons.

The overall shape is unlike any Chinese, Vietnamese or Thai weapons I've seen so far but the style and workmanship of its decoration certaintly points to the region around Vietnam.

-Peter

[Gavin Nugent]

Welcome Peter, great to see you here :-)

Gav

[Peter Dekker]

Hi,

Glad to be here too! I registered years ago but my account never seemed to work properly, there was something wrong with the permissions. I decided to give it another try today and suddenly noticed it works.

P.S. I got something of you here to wrap. There was some interesting stuff under the wrap, a piece of paper with characters. I'll send pics later, my laptop is currently out for repair so I don't have access to my other mail accounts.

-Peter

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi,

P.S. I got something of you here to wrap. There was some interesting stuff under the wrap, a piece of paper with characters. I'll send pics later, my laptop is currently out for repair so I don't have access to my other mail accounts.

-Peter

Great news Peter, thanks! Is this the first grip or second grip?

Nathaniel, can you post your better images for all to view, they do from memory show more detail....it may help others solve the riddle???

Gav

[Nathaniel]

Thanks for the post guys :) Glad to have the conversation going. Peter, I'm glad to hear you agree too with my thoughts on the Vietnamese style engraving. Gavin, I agree...it would be great if there was some more literature on SEA pole weapons.

Here are some of the first pictures I took, Gavin...not the best..little dark:


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/lofu6379/Hok%20Bpee%20Gai/DSC_0164-1.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/lofu6379/Hok%20Bpee%20Gai/DSC_0172-1.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/lofu6379/Hok%20Bpee%20Gai/DSC_0179.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/lofu6379/Hok%20Bpee%20Gai/DSC_0180.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/lofu6379/Hok%20Bpee%20Gai/DSC_0166-1.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/lofu6379/Hok%20Bpee%20Gai/DSC_0167-1.jpg

[Gavin Nugent]

Certainly Vietnam from the detailed images...I've been lucky enough to obtain a complete example a few years ago, complete with the armourers chop seal clearly stamped in the blade, although it has the more classical thick steel and ring collar.