Iraq Dagger

[Aurangzeb]

Hello All!

I just bought this off Therion-Arms, although it is described as berber I think it is Iraqi it looks similer to Marsh arab daggers. Comments are welcome!

Mark...

http://www.therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c731.html

[Tim Simmons]

Hello Mark, it has got that look but could also be from many other places like the horn of Africa, Yemin and so on. Nice shapes, is the handle brass? Looks like a good quality blade. Nice! :cool: :eek: Tim

[Aurangzeb]

Hello Tim!

Yes the handle is brass, and apperars to be good quality.

Mark...

[TVV]

Aurangzeb, the question about the origin of this type of daggers is one whose answer I would also like to know, and I will surely be visiting this thread often. You are quite right that the shape of the blade is indeed quite similar to the shape of the blades on Marsh Arab daggers, yet Hal from Therion also has a strong point about North Africa due to the brass work and the decoration motives on the hilt. One of the many great things about this forum is that newbies such as us could hope to find answers to questions about the origin of weapons such as this one, and I am sure someone here will know with certainty where this particular dagger came from. All I know is that I have seen at least several other examples from this type, so it must be a type of its own.
Wherever it turns out to be from, congratulations on a nice dagger that has the specific charm of old plain weapons, which may lack in decoration but were meant for serious use.
Regards,
Teodor

[Tim Simmons]

Looking again and I think you are right that it is not Berber but I do not think that it is marsh Arab though I can see why you might think so. I have a couple in the attic which I shall get down and post tomorrow. I question Berber and marsh Arab origin because the curved blade is made with an angle rather than a sweeping curve. This is seen most commonly in the horn of Africa a vast region and the Yemen. Personally I would say it was from the countries that make up the horn rather than Yemen. Tim

[Aurangzeb]

Hello Tim!

I have never seen any curved daggers from the horn, this will be my first. I thought it was just a very crude Iraqi dagger.

Mark...

[Tim Simmons]

I do not know for sure, it is just a feeling. The decoration just does not strick me as Arab. Tim

[Aurangzeb]

Hello Tim!

You do have a point about the 'X' symbols on the handle but I have seen geometric paterns on arab/mid-eastern weapons before. The end of the handle reminds me of the end on the daggers of south Iraq, only cruder than normal. I have posted a link to a dagger that used to be on Oriental arms that shows some resmblence to the blade shape on the one I just bought.

Mark...

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=184

[Aurangzeb]

Does this mean that nobody knows for sure where this mystery dagger came from? :(

[Justin]

Personally I have seen a few of these over the last year or so and I had assumed that they were shibriya variants,I have a shibriya in my collection that has a blade with the same curve instead of a recurve.

[Aurangzeb]

Hello Justin!

Interesting, I never even thought of a shabriya varient but now that you mention it the hilt does look like one.

Mark...

[Justin]

Ill see if I can get pics of my single curve shibriya up for comparison. :)

[Aurangzeb]

Thankyou Justin that whould be much appreciated!

[Aurangzeb]

Just a thought maybe it is african perhaps Libya for it shows both african and middle eastern influences, I am probably wrong. I got it today and it has both a Iraqi and North African feel to it, odd? Maybe Artzi whould know?

Mark...

[Justin]

Im also looking forward to what Artzi would have to say about these,they dont seem to make knives in that part of the world that he doesnt know about.

As promised heres the shibria that has the single curved blade:

[Aurangzeb]

Hello Justin!

It does look similer to the single curve one the system of attaching the hilt with metal pegs is very similer. And the use of geometric patterns on the sheath of your single curve. Heres hoping that Artzi will notice this thread. This dagger is a mystery jambiya or varient, can't seem to get it even pinned down to a continent, so far there is Iraq, Berber, horn of africa, Yemen , Libya, and shabriya varient. Confusing :confused: Thanks for the pictures its helping.

Mark...

[Aurangzeb]

Hello All!

I just thought that I whould Clairify my earlier post about it might being libyan. The use of brass and ''X'' shapes on the hilt seems african but the shape of the blade seems arab, sice Libya was a tradeing hub I thoght it might be from there because it combines influieneces from both places. Just a thought. Iraq is my first guess but Libya is my second. Any comments on my new yheory is welcome!

Mark...

[Justin]

I think North Africa is definately a possibility,they had a lot of 'Arab' influence especially in their weapons,but I still like my Shibriya theory :D .

[Aurangzeb]

Hello Justin !

I like the shabriya theroy to, it places it closer to Iraq. :D

[Aurangzeb]

I just noticed that the pommel looks a little like the type on a tebu dagger.

[Aurangzeb]

Now looking at it more closly it does appear to be a shabriya relative, perhaps this typ of shabriya comes from Iraq, is brass used on shabriya hilts?
Just a thought. This dagger is a mystery wrapped in an inigma! :D

Mark...

[Aurangzeb]

Hello All!

I was looking through some of the old Ebay links I saved into my computer and found one for a recurving shabriya with the same trianguler pommel and small metal ring like on mine, unfortunetly I forgot the link r elese I whould have posted it and with well over a hundred Ebay saves in my computer finding it wilkl be great amounts of trouble. Now that it is a shabriya that at least puts it on a continent and geograpical region, now to pin it to a country. Any guesses?

Mark...

[Justin]

Cant help with pinning it to a country but,I have also seen the triangular pommel and the little pommel ring on shibriyas before,and yes they did use brass on them.I have a small and fairly new one that is covered{sheath and hilt} with sheet brass,not brass scales like this one though.....

[Aurangzeb]

Perhaps it is from Jordan.

[Aurangzeb]

I guess this daggers origen will remain a mystery? :( The use of brass and 'X' shapes still seems african. Perhaps Mali, a dagger made by locals in imatation of the arab jambiya/shbariya. HELP! :D

[Hal Siegel]

Howdy folks, and thanks, Mark - I'm glad you like the dagger even though it's giving you headaches! :)

Here's a picture of the dagger in question:

http://www.therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c731.jpg

My original (and current) estimation is northern African somewhere ... the Berber guesstimate was Tom Hyle's thoughts on the origin.

I don't think it's a shabriya variation, the blade shape is really quite jambaic, and even the most extremely curved of the sabriya (nice collection!) doesn't really come close to being the same.

As to Iraq and Marsh Arab - also, I think not. Their hilts are sort of triangularish as shown in Mark's new whatsit, but the Marsh daggers really have a more dart/arrowhead shape to them rather than the clearly defined triangle.

Here's a Marsh dagger shown along with a modern stainless-steel bladed repro:

http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c512f.jpg

The blade curve/shape of the Marsh jambiya is quite similar to the blade on Mark's Mystery, but I think the pommel shape rules out Iraq in specific - although now that I look at all of these pictures together I'm certainly willing to narrow down my estimation of "nothern Africa" to eastern northern Africa (ish!) :)

[Aurangzeb]

I think in the end it will be a glorious accomplishment to pin it ot a country. :D In my opinion the fact it has a crude feel to it as opposed to other nort african daggers which seem refined, and seems to be a crude imatation of arab jambiya's with some saharan-african influences like in Mali or Mauritania. One of the reasons I say Mali is the fact that Mali had strong arab ties during it's history but seems to use brass on a lot of there weapons.

Mark...

[Aurangzeb]

Heres a link I foumd. Look at the dagger from mali half way down the page the desighns on the hilt are idententical, three lines then a "X".

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1268&highlight=west+africa

Mark...

[TVV]

Wrong thread, please delete.

[Aurangzeb]

You must have missed it it's far down on the page.

[Aurangzeb]

Just relised it shows a little Tuareg influence, just a little. :D

Mark...

[Aurangzeb]

Hello all!

I found some Tuareg silver jewlery with a similer 'X' motif on it I will post links when I find it again, but chould this really be Tuareg? I never saw a any curved Tuareg weapons so I am very confuesed. :confused: I really hope someone out there in forum land is sure where yhis came from, this is driving me crazy! :D

Mayday Mayday this thread is going down like a lead rake!

Mark...

[Aurangzeb]

A Link to a similer dagger.

http://www.natashascafe.com/html/tknives1.html

Mark...

[Aurangzeb]

Chould it be Tuareg, Malian, or Mauritanian?

I will not let this thread die easily. :D

Mark...

[Aurangzeb]

Hi All!

Found a link on Oriental-Arms with a tokouba with a similer pattern on it's hilt.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=606

Mark...

[TVV]

Hi Mark, while I cannot contribute any further to this thread, I just want to point out that one of the many fascinating things about ethnographic weapons is that some examples are hard to pin to a particular geographic region. I would guess everyone of us has in his/her possession at least one dagger that is hard to classify.
Right now it is obvious noone here can help you identify the origin of this dagger, but maybe later on some information will surface. What I like most about geographic edged weapons is that each is pretty much unique, and unlike bayonets for example, there is no textbook with patterns and models to tell you exactly where and when a certain piece was produced.

[Aurangzeb]

Hello TVV!

As iratating as it is trying to find out where this dagger came from, I will admit that because of it I learned more about the tuaregs, The Mali Empire, West Africa, and Mansa Musa. As Ali ibn Abi-Talib said "There is no whealth like knoledge, no poverty like ignorance" Also the mystery of this dagger makes it all the more facentating, one day I will find out where this dagger is from. As I find more evidence of this dagger I will post it, identifying this dagger has become my latest 'Crusade'! :D

Mark...

[Aurangzeb]

Hello All!

I spent most of today looking for more things about this dagger, I found it. I now feel beyond a resonable doubt that it has a Tuareg origen. So far I have seen a Takouba and a Telek with the exact same pattern of the "X" and line pattern. I have posted the takouba link before but heres the Telek link. I have been using Oriental-Arms as a main resource for comparisons. This chould mean that the Tuareg did/do use jambiyas. :)

Mark...

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1359

and a limk to an old thread.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000031.html

[Aurangzeb]

Here is an old thread I found the first arm dagger shown shows a similer pattern, perhaps it's origen is Egypt. Just thrownig ideas into the pool.

Mark...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=240&highlight=Sudan

[Aurangzeb]

Hello All!

On page 96 figure 56C in the book "Islamic Weapons Maghreb to Moghul" is a dagger that is identified as Palestinian and bers a resemblance some what to my dagger. I still feal North African though.

Mark...

[Tim Simmons]

Mark, I admire your spirit not accepting orthodoxy or apathy your research will pay off in time. Tim

[Aurangzeb]

Hello Tim!

Thank you for the compliment. I am of Russian/Cossack decent, my grandfather says thats why I am stubborn and determined! :D I will continue to place this to a place and post here as I do.

Mark...

[Radu Transylvanicus]

In admiration to your persuasiveness in this quest for truth here is my humble opinion for what is worth:
It clearly stands out as a crude copy of a Jambyia. That being given and the similarity with the craftsmanship of the solid brass grip "Telek" the Touareg version of the "arm dagger" and the African blades, I would say its belongs to the Touareg or at least to an Islamic black tribe of the Sub-Sahara.
I looked also at the Tirri's book but I would always be careful when considering him for the final verdict. If to consider his book take a look rather at page 54 (# 30) and 56 (# 32A) on the Touareg section instead of the so called Palestinian dagger.

Also the option of a simple "souvenir market" with no blue blood is a solid posibility :( .

[Aurangzeb]

Hello Radu!

You have a point about Tuareg or sub-Saharen africa. I am almost definatly sure it is not tourest, the blade is nice, thick, and sharp and relativly well reforged from a file and seems as a using piece. The grip is the crudest part of it.

Mark...

P.S.-Just bought a nice kindjal off Therion-Arms and will post this less "mysterious" dagger soon.

[Aurangzeb]

Chould it be from the Comoros Islands? The reason for my continuous posting is mainly to use this thread to keep trck of ideas and theoys on this Knife due to my short term memory loss problem. Also is this idea possible or just a crazy idea.

Mark...

[Aurangzeb]

Will someone tell me if my idea is possible or just crazy? :)

[Aurangzeb]

Sudan???? I found a very similer dagger on a website but I do not know if I can post a link to a item that is for sale.

Mark...

[Oriental-Arms]

Gentlemen

Sorry to come in so late, but I am afraid it is indeed a Palestinian dagger coming from the Northern parts of Israel / Palestine or south Syria. It may be mix of several daggers common to the area.

Generally the blades in daggers from the region covering Palestine, Israel, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon are divided into two main categories:

The Shyibria type with the re-curving blade (few examples shown above) which is common to the southern parts of Israel, to Jordan and to the Sinai peninsula

The Khanjar type, with the single curved blade, common to the northern parts of this region: North of Israel, South of Syria and Lebanon.

In both categories the handle will be of the standard “I” shaped, but made of whatever possible material found: wood, horn, bone, brass or any other metal, and the pommel in a variety of shapes: round, half round, triangular, slightly square and whatever the local maker had in mind when he produced the dagger.

A week ago, I have noticed in a small Israeli forum on Ethnographic weapons ( Unfortunately in Hebrew) a thread on this dagger:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/extra/19/000219.jpg


http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/extra/18/000218.jpg

It was collected in the 1973 war between Israel and Syria in a small village (Jubata el Hasheb, now in the international boundaries of Syria). The blade is in a shameful condition, the scabbard is a later scabbard of a Magdali Khanjar (this village is only 7 miles north of Magdal Shams, were the Magdali daggers were made), but the brass handle has a sticking similarity to the one posted above.

Hope this resolves the mystery

(Thanks to Mr. I. Meyuchas, who collected this dagger and was kind enough to allow me to post it here)

[Aurangzeb]

Hello Artzi!

better late than never! :D Thank you so much for resolving this mystery. I can't thank you enough.

Mark...

[Aurangzeb]

Almost forgot is this a khanjar of jambiya, or are they the same thing?

Mark...