Moro Spear

[Gavin Nugent]

I have secured this wonderful old Moro spear for my collections and with the vendors permission can bring these images to light until I can recieve, clean and provide my own images.
Through communications with Maurice, Lee and others ;) you know who you are, I am bringing this forth to somewhat help further cement identification on Moro spears.

So when is a spear a spear, a budiak a budiak, a budiak a spear etc etc.
Attached are both links to Lees discussion and Maurice's discussion along with images of the example secured.

The spear is complete, the head is twistcore as is clearly seen, the head also has a fair bit of script to one side and also what appear to be talismanic markings. The collar has yet to be identified as to wether it is silver or bronze, I suspect bronze if consistant with the butt. the butt retains both the fitting and double rings.

As the vendor has indicated to me, this belonged to a Master Gunnery Sergeant in the US Marine Corps and served in WWII. This to me again points to the Sulu regions unless further details come to hand.

Normally I probably wouldn't run one of these down but I thought it was worthy of being display here with the 'Pershing' Kampalin, that, the completeness and the script is what sold it for me.

When one considers Chinese martial applications of the spear, men who mastered the spear where considered cool under fire and never hand sweaty palms. One application was to hold the spear base and thrust it through the other hand like a bullet through a barrel. It I was to draw this paralell, would the Moro warriors have had cloth bound through the butt rings and their hands much like a Keris or Kampalin that has cloth remaining to the hilts?

I hope you enjoy the images as much as I have.

Gav

Lee's http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12538
Maurice's http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11670

[Maurice]

Gav,

A box of moro budiaks/spears had been opened on the forum.


I also would like to know the exact differences between budiaks and spears or whatever to call them, mostly with reference of old books, articles.
I always assumed that any moro spear's name was budiak.
But it seems, as Battara stated in one of the other mails, that it need to have that chiseled area to be called a budiak. Or did I misunderstood?

I can't wait seeing this blade cleaned!
Wonder if we could read what the text is saying....
Absolutely a great addition to your Pershing kampilan, and they would be an attractive display for sure.

Maurice

[Gavin Nugent]

Gav,

A box of moro budiaks/spears had been opened on the forum.


I also would like to know the exact differences between budiaks and spears or whatever to call them, mostly with reference of old books, articles.
I always assumed that any moro spear's name was budiak.
But it seems, as Battara stated in one of the other mails, that it need to have that chiseled area to be called a budiak. Or did I misunderstood?

I can't wait seeing this blade cleaned!
Wonder if we could read what the text is saying....
Absolutely a great addition to your Pershing kampilan, and they would be an attractive display for sure.

Maurice

Thats a long box to fit them all in Maurice.

I finally took the plunge after you got the other one that has been discussed ;)

Kinda wish I had a light pen and board here, I'd trace over the script to present it and see what it read...just have to wait.

I'm really keen to see what a fully complete piece feels like in the hand and also if anyone can provide feedback on the rings and if cloth was attached like their other weapons of war...

I got the shock of my life last week too, during Alex's B'day party, Rose was giving many guests the grand tour of arms, not a bad job of it either, as she notes to me often, "I know way more than I should" about the swords but has no reservations to more items like this appearing...should I be worried or what :eek: I think there must be a honey can I have coming soon....

Gav

[Rick]

Hi Gav,

Try rubbing a bit of flour into the markings; that should make them more legible .

I've never seen one of these with inscriptions or marks .

Should clean up nicely .
Nice score .

[Sajen]

Hi Gav,

very nice and complete twist core budiak. Would be nice to see it with cleaned and etched blade. I am curious what the inscription saying.

[Rick]

" When one considers Chinese martial applications of the spear, men who mastered the spear where considered cool under fire and never hand sweaty palms. One application was to hold the spear base and thrust it through the other hand like a bullet through a barrel. It I was to draw this paralell, would the Moro warriors have had cloth bound through the butt rings and their hands much like a Keris or Kampalin that has cloth remaining to the hilts?"

Wouldn't one have to drop his Taming in order to fight succesfully in this manner ?

Spears on the ground .

[CharlesS]

According to Stone the budiak's distinction is the chieselled panel/s that give the spear blade within a spear blade effect.

But do we all agree with that?

Regardless, this is a fantastic example and should clean up dramatically.

[Battara]

I would agree with Stone's so far. Twistcores seem to come in budiak and non-budiak styles. There has been some speculation that the butts with loops like these had rope at the end for retrieval.

A clean up, nice polish, and etching would really bring this nice piece out.

Congratulations! :)

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Gav,

Try rubbing a bit of flour into the markings; that should make them more legible .

I've never seen one of these with inscriptions or marks .

Should clean up nicely .
Nice score .

Thanks Rick and a great suggestion, once in hand I'll do so.

Hi Gav,

very nice and complete twist core budiak. Would be nice to see it with cleaned and etched blade. I am curious what the inscription saying.

Thank you Detlef, I am sure the expertise here will eventually solve the translation mystery when I provide better images upon receipt of the spear in a few weeks.



Wouldn't one have to drop his Taming in order to fight succesfully in this manner

Spears on the ground .

Indeed, indeed Rick, though it begs me to ask, other than staged fighting such as this, would a warrior have a weapon of choice and use it to the death were applicable, I only ask as there have been numerous documented accounts of the barong and keris single handedly used to dispatch US soldiers in the day. The dramatic portrayals to not mention that they swapped and changed weapons in life and death combat.....they Moro warrior simply had a weapon of choice, faced off and that was that???

According to Stone the budiak's distinction is the chieselled panel/s that give the spear blade within a spear blade effect.

But do we all agree with that?

Regardless, this is a fantastic example and should clean up dramatically.

Thanks Charles. I tend to agree with the Budiak being having sectioned heads as being discussed in the other links but then I look at this one and although not sectioned the same as Maurice and Lee's, it does appear to be scalloped out over the twistcore section and not being a full elipticatal cross section....Mysteries I am not fully versed in hence my question...what is what and when it it what...

I would agree with Stone's so far. Twistcores seem to come in budiak and non-budiak styles. There has been some speculation that the butts with loops like these had rope at the end for retrieval.

A clean up, nice polish, and etching would really bring this nice piece out.

Congratulations! :)

Thanks Battara.

I look forward to adding to this in a few weeks, my early Christmas present to myself.

Gav

[Rick]

" Indeed, indeed Rick, though it begs me to ask, other than staged fighting such as this, would a warrior have a weapon of choice and use it to the death were applicable, I only ask as there have been numerous documented accounts of the barong and keris single handedly used to dispatch US soldiers in the day. The dramatic portrayals to not mention that they swapped and changed weapons in life and death combat.....they Moro warrior simply had a weapon of choice, faced off and that was that???"

I think we can all agree that this was a weapon not meant to be thrown once and picked up after the fight .

Except ...
During the attacks on the cottas all manner of weapons were hurled at the American forces as they closed in .
I have a hard time accepting that spears like these were thrown away once unless in desperation .

One Warrior in this picture carries a Kris .

[Battara]

I would certainly wonder if this were the reason for so many different kinds of butts ( :D ).

[Lee]

This is an amazing spear, surely the largest and longest I have seen and a fantastic find - and so wonderfully complete!

I will be interested to learn if the inscription can be deciphered. Hopefully there is some useful information there, but I had the thought - without the expertise to back it up - that these engravings might possibly also be 'nonsense' Arabic such as was sometimes seen in European Renaissance arms.

[David]

This is an amazing spear, surely the largest and longest I have seen and a fantastic find - and so wonderfully complete!

I will be interested to learn if the inscription can be deciphered. Hopefully there is some useful information there, but I had the thought - without the expertise to back it up - that these engravings might possibly also be 'nonsense' Arabic such as was sometimes seen in European Renaissance arms.
Well i think that there is a good chance that these markings are talismanic and magickal in intention. It may not be Arabic letters at all. If it is it certainly would be in the Arabic language. If it appears nonsensical to us it won't be because it is nonsense. :)

[Battara]

Yeah, I kind of agree. Seen a lot of talismanic "Arabic" from Indonesia and Philippines. This does not look like true Arabic IMHO, but I may be wrong (my Arabic is nearly non-existent).

[Bill M]

One of my Moro spears
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5973&highlight=Moro+Spear

and a Mandaya
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7941&highlight=mandaya

[Gavin Nugent]

The spear arrived today and it is a beautiful piece in the hand and can certainly be applied in the martial manner of Chinese spears even if the head maybe considered a little heavy.
The twist core section is hollow ground/forged and there is a very subtle medial ridge within this section so can it be considered a Budiak???

Images and further detail in a few weeks.

Nice spears Bill.


Gav

[Battara]

Not quite Gav. It needs the deep chiseling and the right profile to be a budiak.

[Gavin Nugent]

Here are some of the finer details of the twistcore head. I found a little time this morning to give it the once over and a quick etch.

Can the script be read? Or is it just gobbledygook?

Gav

[Battara]

Very nice pattern! :D

Now all we need is someone who can either read Arabic and/or Jawi.........

[Lee]

That cleaned up beautifully! I think this is going to turn out to be a readable inscription.

[Maurice]

Congratulations Gav,

how beautifull the pattern is!

Just back from holiday and now etching blades allready! Good to be back home...:D

Maurice

[Gavin Nugent]

Battara, Lee, Maurice, thanks :)

Who within the community can I turn to for possible translations?

thanks

Gav

[Battara]

Your welcome! :D

Well for Arabic I noticed Dom does a great job. For Jawi.......well........er.......um.........perhaps someone on the keris forum? :shrug:

[Gavin Nugent]

Your welcome! :D

Well for Arabic I noticed Dom does a great job. For Jawi.......well........er.......um.........perhaps someone on the keris forum? :shrug:

Thanks Battara. I looked at the Jawi written language today and I think you are correct in saying that is what it is. I'll spend some time this week trying to make sense of it but I can't feel but help our Keris comrades may be able to offer some help with a translation but their forum is for Keris only....

Gav

[VANDOO]

DANGER CONJECTURE AHEAD :eek:
I SUSPECT DURING COMBAT BETWEEN MOROS THE SPEAR WOULD HAVE BEEN USED INITIALLY BUT IF IT BECAME TOO CLOSE AND CROWDED TO USE MAY HAVE BEEN THROWN OR DROPPED AS IN THE PICTURE AND THEN THEY CLOSED WITH SWORDS.

WHEN FACEING FORIGN TROOPS WITH GUNS PERHAPS THEY RUSHED OUT AND THREW ALL SPEARS AT THE ENEMY AND THEN RAN LIKE HECK TO TRY AND CLOSE WHILE THE ENEMY DUCKED AND COULDN'T BRING THE GUNS TO BEAR. THE MORO WERE NOT THE TYPE TO THROW THEIR SPEARS AND RUN OFF BUT AGAINST GUNS SHEILDS WERE NO GOOD AND GETTING INTO RANGE WITH SPEAR OR SWORD BEFORE BEING SHOT WAS THE PROBLEM. A MORO MAY HAVE FIGURED IF WE WIN AND I LIVE I WILL GET MY SPEAR BACK IF WE DON'T IT WON'T MATTER AS I WILL HAVE NO FURTHER NEED FOR IT.

CONGRADULATIONS ON FINDING ONE OF THESE MONSTER LARGE SIZE MORO SPEARS THEY ARE FEW AND FAR IN BETWEEN. I LUCKED OUT BACK IN THE EARLY 1980'S AND GOT ONE OF THEM IT SURE WAS HARD TO GET HOME WITH IT AS IT WOULDN'T FIT IN THE CAR. :D

[Sajen]

Very, very nice spear! :) Hope that someone will be able to translate the inscription.

[RSWORD]

This twistcore is very well forged. Notice that there are no faults in the steel. So often with twistcore you have forging flaws that show through but this one is very clean. Very attractive pattern!

[carlitobrigante]

wow, stunning spear. Looks sensational after the etch. congrats

[Jentayu]

Its Jawi. Its quite difficult to decipher the words but it looks like the last two words are names of two "Dato" or "chieftains".

"......Dato Jamil ......kan (verb) Dato' Hasim". I guess Jawi expert can put more light into this.

[Gavin Nugent]

Its Jawi. Its quite difficult to decipher the words but it looks like the last two words are names of two "Dato" or "chieftains".

"......Dato Jamil ......kan (verb) Dato' Hasim". I guess Jawi expert can put more light into this.

Outstanding and thank you Jentayu, this wonderful start is greatly appreciated.

Hopefully another can complete the mystery....though if not I will try to find the time to show this to the linguistics dept of the QLD Uni and perhaps there is someone there who can read it all...again Jentayu, fantastic!!!

Looking at the Wiki Jawi link it appears this angle for translation maybe more suitable :shrug:


Gav

[Nathaniel]

(Whistling!!!) Wow, what a looker! :D

[Dom]

Your welcome! :D

Well for Arabic I noticed Dom does a great job. For Jawi.......well........er.......um.........perhaps someone on the keris forum? :shrug:Hi
sorry for delays about our intervention, we were travelling
indeed, better to found someone with "Jawi" knowledge,
because, the mention on the blade, it's not in Arabic :shrug:

best regards

à +

Dom

[Rick]

DANGER CONJECTURE AHEAD :eek:
I SUSPECT DURING COMBAT BETWEEN MOROS THE SPEAR WOULD HAVE BEEN USED INITIALLY BUT IF IT BECAME TOO CLOSE AND CROWDED TO USE MAY HAVE BEEN THROWN OR DROPPED AS IN THE PICTURE AND THEN THEY CLOSED WITH SWORDS.

WHEN FACEING FORIGN TROOPS WITH GUNS PERHAPS THEY RUSHED OUT AND THREW ALL SPEARS AT THE ENEMY AND THEN RAN LIKE HECK TO TRY AND CLOSE WHILE THE ENEMY DUCKED AND COULDN'T BRING THE GUNS TO BEAR. THE MORO WERE NOT THE TYPE TO THROW THEIR SPEARS AND RUN OFF BUT AGAINST GUNS SHEILDS WERE NO GOOD AND GETTING INTO RANGE WITH SPEAR OR SWORD BEFORE BEING SHOT WAS THE PROBLEM. A MORO MAY HAVE FIGURED IF WE WIN AND I LIVE I WILL GET MY SPEAR BACK IF WE DON'T IT WON'T MATTER AS I WILL HAVE NO FURTHER NEED FOR IT.

CONGRADULATIONS ON FINDING ONE OF THESE MONSTER LARGE SIZE MORO SPEARS THEY ARE FEW AND FAR IN BETWEEN. I LUCKED OUT BACK IN THE EARLY 1980'S AND GOT ONE OF THEM IT SURE WAS HARD TO GET HOME WITH IT AS IT WOULDN'T FIT IN THE CAR. :D

As I understand it warfare with the Muslim tribes was either ambuscade, raid, or attacks on Cottas where Moros had gathered for common defense/last stand .

I find myself wondering if this spear is more a symbol of alliance between two leaders of tribes with a common interest in driving the Infidel from the Moro Lands . :shrug:


Pure speculation:

[Gavin Nugent]

As I understand it warfare with the Muslim tribes was either ambuscade, raid, or attacks on Cottas where Moros had gathered for common defense/last stand .

I find myself wondering if this spear is more a symbol of alliance between two leaders of tribes with a common interest in driving the Infidel from the Moro Lands . :shrug:


Pure speculation:

Rick,

Since Jentayu has offered a partial translation that notes two Datu names, I too would speculate this spear is a presentaion piece from one Datu to another Datu, be it gift in appreciation or from one father to another in time of sibling bonding or perhaps as a symbol of alliance.
I hope when the script is fully translated it may capture more of the reasons for this. I have asked one university at this point in time who have referred me to another and I'll just keeping doing this until complete...though it is my hope the community here will stop the suspense.

Gav

[BigG]

Outstanding and thank you Jentayu, this wonderful start is greatly appreciated.

Hopefully another can complete the mystery....though if not I will try to find the time to show this to the linguistics dept of the QLD Uni and perhaps there is someone there who can read it all...again Jentayu, fantastic!!!

Looking at the Wiki Jawi link it appears this angle for translation maybe more suitable :shrug:


Gav
5 of the first letterings on the second line from the right has the equivalent of the consonant sounds of (N-K-R) (K-N) it could thus be read as "nukar-kan" ie "to change"... or " to replace ".

Therefore the 2nd line might read "nukarkan datu Hashim" ie "to replace datu Hashim"

I cnt make out the 1st half of the top line from the right... but the 2nd half reads as datu (Jamil)?... so it can read from the 2nd half onwards from the top to the bottom as "Datu Jamil(?) nukarkan Datu Hashim" or "Datu Jamil(?) to replace (or) has replaced Datu Hashim"... please verify this with an expert though...

[Gavin Nugent]

BigG!!! Outstanding!!! Thank you!!!

This new dimension, although as you suggest BigG, awaiting expert assesment, in the context you noted certainly adds a wonderful historical apect to this spear!
It seems like a changing of the guard to to speak....and for it to me marked on the twistcore spear head...this really must have been important...this really is getting interesting.

THANK YOU

Gav

[BigG]

glad to help... but really get an expert verification as even tho much of the languages of the philipines are dialects of Malay... it is not exactly like the Standard Malay I know...

[Gavin Nugent]

glad to help... but really get an expert verification as even tho much of the languages of the philipines are dialects of Malay... it is not exactly like the Standard Malay I know...

Will do for sure BigG, I know I am as others are currently looking for confirmation on Jentayu and your work.
Greatly appreciated, I don't think this is seen very often on Moro weaponry.
Completed work will be published when it comes to light...

Gav

[Reichsritter]

The spear arrived today and it is a beautiful piece in the hand and can certainly be applied in the martial manner of Chinese spears even if the head maybe considered a little heavy.
The twist core section is hollow ground/forged and there is a very subtle medial ridge within this section so can it be considered a Budiak???

Images and further detail in a few weeks.

Nice spears Bill.


Gav


Hi Gav-

The local dialect (Tausug) for spear in Sulu is Budjak

[Spunjer]

Lol, i had a feeling you'd pop out here sooner or later, reichsritter... how are ya?

[Reichsritter]

Lol, i had a feeling you'd pop out here sooner or later, reichsritter... how are ya?


Maayo man ko migo
:)

I was drawn in some interesting topic in the European Armory for a while (ato ko didto hehe)....just noticed this nice Budjak with interesting Jawi inscription. Will try to look at these people in the Tarsila :)

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Gav-

The local dialect (Tausug) for spear in Sulu is Budjak

Hi Reichsritter,

Thank you for further insight and I am glad you are well.

Seeking further clarity on the subject of filipino spears;
Budjak = Budiak = spear and there is no naming difference between a chiseled example such as Lee's or Maurice's found in the links at the start and this one presented?
I hope you weaken enough to share anything else you can about the Budjak and the inscription.

regards

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

Here is a notion, fanciful too..let me have my dreams for a moment :D

With the translation that has been offered, could the word Jamil actually be Amil as in Datu Amil from the Sulu regions noted in Fultons work?
Finding such note worthy script on a spear or any Moro weapon for that matter must have a great importance and Amil was of the new school of thought were others were considered old school, perhaps a change that was note worthy enough to show on a spear and the spear being the king of weapons....let the dream stay for a minute before you all come firing in... :p

Gav

[Reichsritter]

Hi Reichsritter,

Thank you for further insight and I am glad you are well.

Seeking further clarity on the subject of filipino spears;
Budjak = Budiak = spear and there is no naming difference between a chiseled example such as Lee's or Maurice's found in the links at the start and this one presented?
I hope you weaken enough to share anything else you can about the Budjak and the inscription.

regards

Gavin


Hi Gav-

No distinction, all spear for a Tausug is called Budjak. What I am intrigue here if who is Datu Jamil and Hashim in Sulu Genealogy. Im crossing my fingers that I can pinpoint who they are and what generation they lived.

By the way, it appears to me that Datu Hashim is an heir of Datu Jamil. The title was passed and maybe perhaps a responsiblity.

"Jamil" (meaning handsome) I think was more common name rather that Amil


:)

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Gav-

No distinction, all spear for a Tausug is called Budjak. What I am intrigue here if who is Datu Jamil and Hashim in Sulu Genealogy. Im crossing my fingers that I can pinpoint who they are and what generation they lived.

By the way, it appears to me that Datu Hashim is an heir of Datu Jamil. The title was passed and maybe perhaps a responsiblity.

"Jamil" (meaning handsome) I think was more common name rather that Amil


:)

Hi Reichritter,

You obviously have very good resources. I would hazard a guess that you start with the WWII era and work back as this was from the estate of a Naval Gunnery SGT who was in the area in WWII...I hope that helps.

Gav

[Reichsritter]

Hi Reichritter,

You obviously have very good resources. I would hazard a guess that you start with the WWII era and work back as this was from the estate of a Naval Gunnery SGT who was in the area in WWII...I hope that helps.

Gav


Hi Gav-

It could be before WWII, but I'm looking far earlier. Things like these (including Kalis & Barung ) are heirlooms passed from generations together with the titles usually inherited by the eldest son. Remember, they practiced the traditional law of primogeniture.

[eric45]

very nice piece.
Eric

[BigG]

...could the word Jamil actually be Amil ...

Gav

not likely... the Jawi letter that came after the Jawi spelling of Datu' in the first line is the letter JHIM that creates the equivalent of the romanise consonant sound made by the letter "J"... as in "Jug, Jiggle, Joe". For the word to be Amil... the first Jawi letter has to be a different and distinctively written one. That is the Jawi letter of "ALIF"... That letter is not present there...

[Battara]

I would also propose that this piece is definitely pre-WWII, even perhaps pre-1900.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks BigG, Battara,

Here is the ole warrior restored.

Both sides of the blade now cleaned, collar and butt cap also cleaned and the wood oiled.... came up a quite nice :) :cool:

The collar looks to be Suassa with the brass/gold/copper tones :shrug: The Butt fitting retains a green patina after a very good clean.

Seeing how well it came up, given the time, I might just get in to that Yanyuedao.

Gav

[David]

Oh stop it Gav, you're killin' me! ;) :D
That sure is a beauty alright. Maybe the sweetest Moro spear i've seen. :)

[BigG]

Excellent restoration work. Outstanding budiak ths...

[Battara]

Wonderful piece! Looking like brass sleeve and butt to me.........

Nice work! Old warrior back to its former glory. :)

[Sajen]

Congratulations for this beauty and the very good restore work! :)

[Gavin Nugent]

Oh stop it Gav, you're killin' me! ;) :D
That sure is a beauty alright. Maybe the sweetest Moro spear i've seen. :)

Oh come on David :o , just one more..... ;) Battara, BigG, Sajen, turned out better than I imagined.

Gav

[Battara]

Yes, definitely brass sleeve. Say if you ever throw it in the trash, let me know so that I can come by and unburden you. :D

[tunggulametung]

Since Bangsa Moro is great sailor, I think this hook on the butt cap is useful for spearfishing (still practiced in Indonesia). The rope can be secured to the collar to like on Lee's example. Just an idea.

Two of the pictures come from here (http://news-independent.blogspot.com/2008/03/berita-foto-pemburuan-ikan-paus.html)

[David]

I don't believe that this was ever intended for spear fishing. The spearhead is all wrong and would not be efficient for keeping the catch on the spear. :shrug:

[tunggulametung]

As for the translation, I can't help much. We need to limit which language is most likely used here. Tausug? Yakan? Maguindanao? Maranao? what else is probable? I don't speak any of these languages nor within knowledge how differ the vocabulary, I understand that some if not many of them are interchangeable, even to Malay but I believe there are times when they are greatly differ.

I believe when we are speaking about older days, spelling is not really matter, the most important is how they sound and how someone can give meaning to that sound. So if we are looking for the translation on dictionary, we have to try on more than one word for greater possibilities. And of course getting it translated by someone who speak the language is better because they can translate it not only word by word but by the whole idea. Sorry can't express it in shorter word :o.

I generally agree with Big if we speak from Malay point of view as I will go here, these might be far from valid (given the language differences above) but I'll just try here to give a perspective. On the first line, first letter is unreadable to me (but might be significant). I don't read any "datu", only "tu" which can be a shorter form of "untuk" (for), next maybe "kami" (us), then "hasil" (result/in return-exchange for), on the second line I speculate it will be "nakar kan datu hasim" because I will put "waw" (u) after "nun" (n) if I want to go "nukarkan" (to exchange) but again spelling doesn't matter anyway ... google says "nakar" is pearl in tagalog? maybe close/similarities with languages down south? "kan" sound familiar, common suffix in malay, also shorther form of "akan" (will be) etc.. but I believe have different meaning in Moro Land. This is my best try, I hope someone who speak the language can translate it, would be exciting to know what it read in the end. Sorry if I read the Jawi in error I'm not fluent. Congrats for this outstanding budiak (or whatever the original owner call it)! :)

[tunggulametung]

I don't believe that this was ever intended for spear fishing. The spearhead is all wrong and would not be efficient for keeping the catch on the spear. :shrug:Me too. I agree about the shape of the head, it is too fancy as well. But ritual and belief system sometime goes beyond that. I just try to go outside of the box and think. So how about water/boat fight? I think I read somewhere that Bangsa Moro is a good fighter both on land and water?

[tunggulametung]

Sorry, two letter Kaf (K) on the first line should read Ain :o

[Gavin Nugent]

Me too. I agree about the shape of the head, it is too fancy as well. But ritual and belief system sometime goes beyond that. I just try to go outside of the box and think. So how about water/boat fight? I think I read somewhere that Bangsa Moro is a good fighter both on land and water?

Hi Tunggulametung,

Thank you for showing the hunting images.

After seeing these it is apparent to me that the pole of these spears are just not strong enough to support hunting of even a smaller sea creature.
The ones pictured are far thicker and are shafts of harpoons that pull off after the head impacts...see the ropes are attached to the iron ends in the whale.
What you note about a boat fight however does hold my interest as you would certainly want your spear back to throw again as chances are boats may never actually come together in these conflicts but always keep a distance.
Thanks too for the translation notations provided in the image.

Gav

[Rick]

I read once in one of Hurley's books (I believe) that the sea raiders had smaller spears which could be thrown by the handfull when approaching another vessel in order to keep the enemy crew disorganised until boarding .

Not so sure about the usefulness of a full sized spear on a fighting Prau . :shrug: :confused:

If you look closely at the hafts of the harpoons shown in the pictures you'll notice they are quite long (12 foot plus) and thick .

[tunggulametung]

How about the possible usage on jungle trap?

[David]

How about the possible usage on jungle trap?
I had always assumed that these were battle weapons, not hunting spears.
:shrug:

[Jentayu]

Thanks Pak Tunggulametung. It is indeed quite difficult to decipher those words and alphabets. More so when some of the alphabets and the way they were written lack visibility and accuracy. What we can do is to read it or make assumptions as close to the "normal" words that we normally understood it from malay language written in Jawi. Here is my view of the words....

[tunggulametung]

Thanks abang Jentayu, it really help me in shaping my second thought.

So I bring my self one more time here (to revise) my earlier post (I promise to stop after another post :D, unless I'm coming with something difinite). It goes something like:

Kaaklanal/Kaakanal/Kaakanad/Kaaknal tuk Hamsal
Nakarkan Datuk Hasim

bold=almost sure
maybe something like:
given/trusted to Hamsal after saving/to guard Datuk Hasim? (wild wild guess)

alternatively ofcourse there are two Datus, Hamsal and Hasim as mentioned before, or one Datu: Hasim, giving over/excanging over something

I believe we're close in term of how it sound, just need kind assistance from someone who can associate it into something meaningful.

Anyway, thanks for the space and being patience with my posts ;) :D

[BigG]

I had always assumed that these were battle weapons, not hunting spears.
:shrug:

I tend to agree wth David on this. It seems that this is simply far too specific in its design to be a hunting implement. The sheer exuberance of the form, in terms of its overall look, its heft and the width and ruggedness of the blade gives me the impression that budiaks, and this one in particular, as meant to be used as a weapon. It may of course have the added significance of being embellished with messages and used as a gift, status symbol or as a personal or clan totem thingy, but really, i just find it hard to see this as anything other then an implement of war.

My own thoughts on this is that budiaks in general and this one in parricular is used as a stabbing & thrusting weapon in the manner in which spears are employed by hoplites in classical greek era. Thus the featuremat the end maybe a used as a counterbalance to allow for the weapon to be held straight n level one handed while hiding behind a circular shield as we habe seen in many black & white moro photos. In fact pretth much alike to how a Spartan or Athenian hoplite would have stood in a phalanx.

[tunggulametung]

I had always assumed that these were battle weapons, not hunting spears.
:shrug:

Maybe not necesarily animal trap, but trap for the infidels? I mean in the war time like forum member Vandoo mentioned in another thread-if I remember correctly, we don't really care how ornate our spear anymore, we'll use anything we can use (with optimism that we'll get it later). Also I remember on another thread seeing mandau for woodworking (something collectors won't even dare to think of). I saw on tv it is use to clearing bush on their way to the river for spearfishing (recent date program)-that precious arowana fish in 'modern world' :eek:, I think they are lucky, must be yummy need to taste one before I die. You know, they are not in war everyday. I believe in the past, other then Keris/Kalis, most all of these weapon from the archipelago are likely "working tools" in certain degree. Keris/Kalis (with spiritual imbued belief) might saw special treatment since the beginning (eg. not going to see woodworking), especially as a defend weapon (this would covers defend from animal attack for example). Kampilan, I remember to learn was datu piece, but seems unreasonable, might be noble alright, and have some ceremonial/status at some extent.

Back to the spear, because they are facing someone with better arm/bullets, they need to keep a distance, so trap sound like a good solution, so at least they have two stages of attack (read: chances) rather than one, or fly for another strategy (I think they are more straight forward no?). If not use on the water (with long rope attached), I suggest it is use as a trap somehow, maybe with shorther rope or without rope at all. I read somewhere on the net, they set up lances inside bamboo barrel for better accuracy. :shrug: thanks, just two cents :)

------------
I think it still valid to add on my last post :p

Brother Big, that's probable, but in my opinion the wire end design must have other purpose other than counter weight.

PS. at some degree Moro Kris was still a 'defend weapon' in relation with Spanish/American forces at that time, in my opinion they never thought their kalis are different from other keris as how we devide it in this forum, it's just kalis, sundang, keris...same thing only with their unique identity.

Thanks again

[BigG]

I read once in one of Hurley's books (I believe) that the sea raiders had smaller spears which could be thrown by the handful...

I would agree with this. The spear that we see here is not meant to be used as a missile weapon. It could not be thrown well as the general build & design that we see here would not allow it to fly well and true to the target. Although if pressed by the circumstances of battle one would take ones chances I guess.

A throwing spear would have to be generally light enough to be thrown to a considerable distance. It is design with a its centre of gravity towards the spearhead to allow it to reach its target with its business end first especially in a plunging throw. In straight & level throw it must be able to keep to an even and relatively flat trajectory to hit its target quickly without fizzling away too much of its kinetic energy.

Lastly, I would guess that it must be light enough that a single warrior/legionnaire/what have you to throw off a couple in battle to keep it nice and lively for the enemy.

[BigG]

Just a thought. Standard Malay, or at the very least, the standard Malay that is used in which ever timeline this budiak is from, is usually used for formal messages when writing down agreements, commendations, appeals or perhaps inscribing a formal gift. Standard Malay, was a lingua franca within the whole of the archipelago used even by the western powers in official dealings various local chieftains & potentates. Thus if we assume that this is a substantive gift from, and , to or for an important personage, then it is probable that standard Malay instead of a local dialect would be used.

[VANDOO]

IN A OLD POST ON THESE EXTRA LARGE MORO SPEARS I HAD PUT FORWARD THE POSSIBILITY THAT THESE COULD HAVE SERVED IN THE PROTECTION OF THE COTTA. THEY WOULD BE VERY EFFECTIVE WHEN USED FROM THE TOP OF A WALL OR IN AN AREA WHERE THE ENEMY HAD TO APROACH THRU A RESTRICTED AREA. THE LEGNTH WOULD HAVE BEEN A BIG ADVANTAGE IN SUCH A CASE. PERHAPS A CORD COULD BE ATTACHED AND THE SPEAR RETRIEVED FROM A WALL AS WELL. A TEAM OF TWO WOULD BE BEST ONE TO THROW AND THE OTHER TO MANAGE THE ROPE. IF A STRIKE WAS MADE BOTH WOULD PULL TO GET THE SPEAR BACK OR PERHAPS TO DRAG THE ENEMY INTO CLOSER RANGE FOR OTHERS TO FINISH.
MORE CONJECTURE BUT A POSSIBILITY AS SIMULAR THINGS INCLUDING ROPES WERE USED DEFENDING PRIMATIVE FORTIFICATIONS IN MANY AREAS OF THE WORLD.
A VERY LUCKY ADDITION TO YOUR COLLECTION THE FORCE IS STRONG FOR YOU :D

[migueldiaz]

I believe we're close in term of how it sound, just need kind assistance from someone who can associate it into something meaningful.Tunggulametung, thank you for the translation. It's very interesting. As we say here in Manila, "salamat" :)

Eariler, I've asked two Filipino Muslim friends here in the Philippines to help in the translation. One is in the university, and the other is based in Mindanao. But I have not heard from them -- looks like they are having a hard time.

But with your translation, I don't think we need to wait for their comments. Thus, salamat once again. Best wishes.

[Battara]

Great points - these were actually lances not throwing spears.

I chime in with Lorenze in saying salamat for the hard work in translating.

[Gavin Nugent]

Great developments guys,

Tunggulametung, Big G, thank you for the translation teachings and notations added to the images and thank you to everyone who has taken an interest in trying to solve the mystery script on this blade.

Lorenz, the images shown in museum Lee's thread are nothing short of superb, the trip you made and the photos you took are invaluable and I have not forgotten images for you either. Of particular interest were the iron butt ends as seen on spears from other countries along with the example similar to Maurice's spear and even a blade shape similar to mine, it seems this museum has every option/angle covered...nice to see the Chinese polearms too.

Would it help further if I posted further images of the script from another angle?

thanks to all and may the force be with you too ;-)

[Gavin Nugent]

A little bump from the past.

I have turned up no more on this piece or an exacting translation but have on the Kampilan...more on that later.

Curious to know if anyone else following leads are able to offer anything further?

Gav

[mohd]

Hi Gavin and all the forum members,

I think the forum members especially Jentayu and Tunggulametung had already done great job in translating the scripts written on the blade of the Bangsamoro spear.
Anyhow I just want to contribute some little info that might be useful in addition to their works.
I don't know any of the Bangsamoro language (i.e. Bajau, Tausug, Illanun etc).
Anyhow the Bangsamoro language basically has a very strong resemblance with the Malay language (i.e. we shared words such as keris, golok, pisau, tumpul, sumbing, kota, batu, kerbau etc).
Even we Malay always consider the Bangsamoro as Malay of the Philippines.

Okay, let's proceed with the transliteration of the text written on the blade of the Bangsamoro spear.

The first line appear as بــجــاﻻن دتــوﺀ كــمــيــد
Or it might be بــجــاﻻن دتــوﺀ كــمــيـــل
It's transliteration is bjalan dtu' kmid or bjalan dtu' kmil.
In the current Malay spelling it should appear as bejalan Datu' Kamid or bejalan Datu' Kamil.
I only understand the words Datu' Kamid or Datu' Kamil who must be the name of a royal family or a ruler somewhere in Southern Philippines.
The words bejalan do carry meaning in Malay (i.e. walking) anyhow IMVHO it doesn't really relevance in this very particular phrase.
Bejalan might has a totally different meaning in the Bangsamoro language.
One thing, I prefer the first transliteration just because IMVHO the name of Kamid is more longer and widely used compare to Kamil which I consider as rather new in usage in South East Asia.

بـ ± b (i.e. it must be alphabet بـ ± b because alphabet تـ ± t, ثـ ± th, نـ ± n and يـ ± i very seldom to meet with the alphabet ـجـ ± j in Malay language group phonetically)
ـجـ ± j (i.e. it must be ـجـ ± j because it is more in the usage compare to ـحـ ± h and ـخـ ± kh in Malay language group)
ـا ± a
ﻻ‎ ± la
ن ± n (i.e. this alphabet ن ± n must be at the end of the word because it is just not right phonetically to have alphabet د ± d as the last one in any words in Malay language group)

د ± d (i.e. this alphabet د ± d must be the first alphabet of a new word in this particular text)
تـ ± t
ـو ± u
ﺀ ± ' datu' (i.e. rulers title) and datuk (grandfather) or bala' (i.e. disaster) and balak (i.e. logwood)]

كـ ± k
ـمـ ± m
ـيـ ± i
ـد ± d or ـل ± l (i.e. the alphabet actually looks more like ـل ± l but historically we seldom found name Kamil used among South East Asian Muslim during those olden days; personally I believe the alphabet is actually ـد ± d)

The second line appear as نــاكــر كــن دتــوﺀ حــاســم
Or it might be نــاكــد كــن دتــوﺀ حــاســم
It's transliteration is nakr kn dtu' hasm or nakd kn dtu' hasm.
In the current Malay spelling it should appear as nakarkan Datu' Hasim or nakadkan Datu' Hasim.
I only understand the words Datu' Hasim who must be of another royal family or a ruler in the Southern Philippines.
The words nakarkan or nakadkan do not carry meaning in Malay.

نـ ± n
ـا ± a (i.e. alphabet نـ ± n at the beginning of any word can not be written alone by itself; it must be followed by another alphabet)
كـ ± k
ـر ± r or ـد ± d (i.e. IMVHO here the writing of alphabet ـر ± r looks very closely similar to alphabet ـد ± d).

كـ ± k
ـن ± n

د ± d
تـ ± t
ـو ± u
ﺀ ± ' (i.e. kindly ref to my explanation on the same alphabet above)

حـ ± h
ـا ± a
سـ ± s
ـم ± m

In summary it seems the text is letting us know that the particular Bangsamoro spear in your custody was actualy got something to do with the life and the deed of two royal families or rulars somewhere in Southern Philippines by the name Datu' Kamid or Datu' Kamil and Datu' Hasim.
So sorry, this little info which I can offer you here, Gavin :o
It still has to be referred to any Bangsamoro language expert regarding the actual meaning of the text.

mohd

[tom hyle]

I've seen this same butt treatment on Chinese pole arms, and often with a flat ribbon attached. It even closely resembles a feature common on Tibetan phurbas (ritual spears)

[Gavin Nugent]

Mohd,

Thank you very much for your time and interest in offering your insight in to the writings found on this spear and adding to the wonderful works already provided by Jentayu and Tunggulametung, it is greatly appreciated and I know you spent quite a lot of your personal time doing so.

My thanks :)

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

A little extra detail from the estate this spear came from.

Master Gunnery Sergeant George Pelletiere, US Marine Corps who fought in the Battle of Guadalcanal during WWII.

Whilst he may not have obtained this during service, the ship could have passed through the Philippines??? And his position, he could certainly find space within the ships hull...equally he could have bought or obtained this stateside at any time in his life....

Some food for thought.

Gav

[Rick]

Master Gunny ?
I'd figure he was in the service before the war; possibly a Lifer, former China Marine as they used to call 'em .

Reckon they were assigned to the Philippines too .

[Gavin Nugent]

Master Gunny ?
I'd figure he was in the service before the war; possibly a Lifer, former China Marine as they used to call 'em .

Reckon they were assigned to the Philippines too .

Indeed Rick, likely a lifer.

How does one obtain military records to follow his service trail through the South Pacific?

[Rick]

Possibly Wayne could help you mate .
I believe he is ex-USN .
Wayne ?

If the man is real; his service record must be somewhere . :shrug:
Happy hunting . ;)

[rickystl]

I have more interest in firearms than blades. But, I just had to follow this thread. What an interesting thread. What a great spear!!! Wonderful piece. And, great job of cleaning. It's amazing what you can find under a heavy layer of patina :D Again, congratulations. Rick.