Old File Bladed shibriya for comment

[Atlantia]

Quite a rough thing but seems to have good age (well for one of these!)
Blade is clearly a file, good thick and sharp, with a central spine.
Scabbard and hilt have been recently polished to a high shine sadly, but good patina in recesses.
Unusual hilt shape, any thoughts?
Hilt is Horn with silver sheet covering. Central sheet has niello decoration.
Must add, might no keep it, so throwing it open for comments before I make a final decision on its fate!

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/Battlestar_Atlantia/IM000153-1.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/Battlestar_Atlantia/IM000156-2.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/Battlestar_Atlantia/IM000158-1.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/Battlestar_Atlantia/IM000152.jpg

[Atlantia]

Bump! No comments?

[spiral]

I think at least with the one made from a file we know there more likely "real" Rather than the the mild steel, place marked & dated tourist examples we so often see.

Hilt shape looks fairly common to me? at least both the ones Ive kept are that shape. Ones made from a file as well. The others silver & nielo scabbard & hilt. Ive only erver had 4 or 5 of these, the others had " single peaked" tops rather than the double peak.

I think the lanyard type ring should be on the front not the back though?

Ill do photos of mine in the morning, for you to compare.

Spiral

[Atlantia]

Brilliant! Cheers Spiral :)

[spiral]

Here we go....

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/001-17.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/0022-4.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/003-15.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/004-13.jpg

The brass one has a lovely & unusual almst luminescant light lime green shade to its horn grip, which the photos dont realy capture.

There interesting pieces I think?

Spiral

[Atlantia]

Thanks Spiral, thats a really nice pair you have there!
I see what you mean about the lanyard ring, I'll flip that round.
Strange I've not seen these 'twin horned' ones before.
Whats the significance of the different hilt (compared with the standard touristy ones that are so common)?

These file blades are interesting, I take it they pre-date WW2 (before leaf springs and other better materials became commonplace)?

Nice to have two so different examples too, which do you prefer?

Best
Gene

[spiral]

Thanks Gene!

I have no idea of the relevance of different tops. Artzi or someone else from the middle east might know?

The silver & nielo one is nice but I prefer the file one, I suspect it is older & has a more user feel to it to me.

Spiral

[broadaxe]

Here is my input: as spiral said, the ring is usually at front. It is not for a lanyard but rather for a small lucky charm, most popuplar was a blue glass bead on a fine chain or leather thong.
When sheet metal hilts are in concern, the scabbard is mostly made of the same material.
The "twin peak" or thumb rest pommel is not very common, but also not scarce. I would date these file blades to in between the Wold Wars.
The niello work is simple but very uncommon to this type of arm. It indicates circassian (highly improbable due to the form) and armenian (most probable) work.

[Atlantia]

Spiral.

I can't decide between your two! They are both really nice.
:)


Broadaxe.

Thanks for the info :D
But Armenian?? I thought this shape of blade was exclusive to Jordan/Syria?
Am I about to get an education here? :confused:

Best
Gene

[TVV]

Spiral.

I can't decide between your two! They are both really nice.
:)


Broadaxe.

Thanks for the info :D
But Armenian?? I thought this shape of blade was exclusive to Jordan/Syria?
Am I about to get an education here? :confused:

Best
Gene

There were many Circassian refugees to Syria and Jordan, who fled there during and after the wars with Russia in the mid 19th century.

Regards,
Teodor

[broadaxe]

Armenians came to the middle east as refugees and there is a famous weapon shop in Amman, led by an Armenian silversmiths family. They use Armenian motifs and methods over the local weapons.
Circassian (Adyga) families were brought by the Ottoman Turks into the middle east during the 1870's to serve as border guards, they kept their traditional weapons, the khma and sha-squa.

[spiral]

Thank you Broadaxe, fascinating info!

On my file bladed one, there are also 2 rings on the scabbard as well as the belt loop, i always assumed these were either for added ties to the belt or so it could be attached to a baldric or shoulder belt, I know am wondering if the would have been for added decorations as well?

Also is it possible to estimate the Armenian style niello one? I was told it was collected in Egyption territory by a British serviceman along with an old sword & kukri in around 1947? But have no evidence to support or refute it.

Have you any examples to share? Would be nice to see others. ;)

Spiral

[broadaxe]

Thank you Broadaxe, fascinating info! not a problem, we are here to share.
On my file bladed one, there are also 2 rings on the scabbard as well as the belt loop, i always assumed these were either for added ties to the belt or so it could be attached to a baldric or shoulder belt, I know am wondering if the would have been for added decorations as well? From what I know, the things vary. You can find them both or just seperated, while you can also find more side rings, up to 3 pairs (= 6 rings a lot). I believe this gave way to flexibility in affixing the knife, as some folks used leather belt, some used woven baldric (on the waists like a belt, across the shoulder reserved only for swords here) and some laced the knife permanently into their batlle harness.

Also is it possible to estimate the Armenian style niello one? If you talk about the one entirely cladded in nielloed silver it goes towards the higher end of shabriyas . I was told it was collected in Egyption territory by a British serviceman along with an old sword & kukri in around 1947? But have no evidence to support or refute it. It is possible, could be the Sinai desert. The enire region was a large battlefield during the fall of WWI. Kukries are to be found, although rarely, becauuse there were three British/Indian batallions involved. The type of the sword would have been a great source of further information. Just remember that after WWI there was the Arab revolt of 1936-9, then WWII which put some less stress over that region (minor battles), but from 1947 to 1949 the whole place was in flames due our Independence War.
Have you any examples to share? Would be nice to see others. ;) I do not collect them but occasionaly own one or two, just because the local interest. I handled, though, maybe hundreds of all kinds and conditions. Posting now a photo of the last one I traded off about a month ago, will take photos of two other which are for a keep. BTW, that particular shape is to be found only in Jordan, Israel and the Sinai.
Spiral

The shabriya in my photo is an old one with a good blade (not from a file though), hilt is horn and the most thing is wrapped in thin silver sheet.

[spiral]

Thanks Broadaxe, by estimate I did mean the date but thank for the other information anyway. Due to forum rules can I suggest you delete the other estimate?

Fascinating stuff, the sword was a 18th centry european blade in a handle that appeared made of of military radio or rader type fittings & silver wire.

Sadley I no longer have it.

Thanks for the photo, look forward to the others, I guess the horn would be goat?

Thanks for the information on these type of knives, it is great to know more about them.

Spiral

[broadaxe]

An older sword blade fitted with a makeshift handle of salvaged material at hand - sounds exactly period Bedouin-like.
The grip material on that silver shabriya is sheep horn. Goat, sheep and sometimes bovine horn grips are to be found, unless it is fitted with sheet metal over wooden core. Interesting enough, post WWII shabriyas somtimes have plastic grips, taken from military junk - I had one large shabriya with a file blade and black dense plastic grip sometimes ago. The finest, older shabriyas had ivory-like grips, made of heavy camel bones; these are realy hard to encounter, less than 1%.

[Atlantia]

This is indeed a great thread, bravo gentlemen.

[spiral]

Definatly a great thread Gene!

Thank you again for the information Broadaxe. Ive seen so little info about these generaly.

Re-reading it I see the Armenian comment was about Genes silver piece not mine. Does that mean mine is more likly Circassion in style perhaps?

What are the earliest known examples of these? Ive wondered if the shape was derived from the tip of French Yataghan bayonets? Is anything known about the origins of the Shibriya?

Spiral

[broadaxe]

Definatly a great thread Gene!

Thank you again for the information Broadaxe. Ive seen so little info about these generaly.

Re-reading it I see the Armenian comment was about Genes silver piece not mine. Does that mean mine is more likly Circassion in style perhaps?

What are the earliest known examples of these? Ive wondered if the shape was derived from the tip of French Yataghan bayonets? Is anything known about the origins of the Shibriya?

Spiral

No, no. I was referring to your piece. Atlantia's is a strange hybrid. Again, Circassians did not produce local style weapons. The history of the shabriya is obscure and yet to be researched thoroughly. The earliest I'm aware of are from the late 19th century.

[broadaxe]

Here you go, longer one is 33cm overall. Though I got each one on different time and occasion (one has been imported from USA via ebay...) they are very much alike.

[Atlantia]

Atlantia's is a strange hybrid.

Be about right for me then! ;)

[Warren McQ]

Here are a couple that I've picked up recently.
I Believe that the bone handle one could be pre WW2 and I think the other is a 1964 dated tourist model.

[spiral]

Ahhh! Thanks again Broadaxe for the clarification & also the pics of the bone examples. Interesting to see the blade shape varients.

Intresting bone top on that piece Warren, I havent seen the that shape before.

Spiral

[broadaxe]

Indeed, Warren's bone handled specimen is rare, the three-pronged pommel is less common but this is the first I see with a bone handle. I think, though, its sheath has been made later, in the 1950's & onwards fashion.

[spiral]

Heres the oldest pictures Ive found so far of Bedouin with Shabria, there from1921. It would be nice to see other old ones if anyone has them?

spiral


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/shibrya.jpg


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/shibrya1.jpg

[stephen wood]

...isn't that Auda Abu Tayi of the Howeitat?

[ariel]

The first picture is, IMHO, not of a Beduin. Look at the so-called " peot", longish braided hair in front of his ears. Also, the corners of his beard are not trimmed or shaved. And then, you will have to trust me, this is not an Arab face: this is an Ashkenazi Orthodox Jew dressed like a Beduin. Likely, a guard from one of the early Israeli kibbutzim. Romantic era.....

[spiral]

...isn't that Auda Abu Tayi of the Howeitat?

I had it listed as a Bedouin cheif, but a quick search on the name you provided "Auda Abu Tayi" confirms it is indeed the leader of the rebelion.

You may well be correct Ariel,thanks for sharing your thoughts!

But sadley I wouldnt know enough of the subject to know.

The photo was titled a Bedouin warrier from the Beni Hassan tribe? :shrug:


Spiral

[Atlantia]

Heres the oldest pictures Ive found so far of Bedouin with Shabria, there from1921. It would be nice to see other old ones if anyone has them?

spiral


Hi Spiral,
Great pictures, is this chap wearing a Shabria I can't see a 'charm loop'? His sword looks like it might be a Turkish capture?

http://imagecache6.allposters.com/LRG/27/2742/TZRND00Z.jpg

[broadaxe]

The first picture is, IMHO, not of a Beduin. Look at the so-called " peot", longish braided hair in front of his ears. Also, the corners of his beard are not trimmed or shaved. And then, you will have to trust me, this is not an Arab face: this is an Ashkenazi Orthodox Jew dressed like a Beduin. Likely, a guard from one of the early Israeli kibbutzim. Romantic era.....

Although might be true, I must argue that: "peot" are NOT to be braided but curled, twisted or laid flat and there are always two. This guy has at least three. It was not uncommon for bedouins of the Saudi desert to have braided long hair, up to the eve of WWII (appr.). I agree the face do not belong to a pure southern bedouin, he could have been of other ancestry. As for early jewish guards - those tend to blend Russian/Caucassian garments with local beduin. This fashion took place (roughly) from 1870 to 1939.

[spiral]

Hi Spiral,
Great pictures, is this chap wearing a Shabria I can't see a 'charm loop'? His sword looks like it might be a Turkish capture?



Hi Gene, yes its definatly a Shabria, charm ring an all. ;)

Spiral

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/shib.jpg

[Atlantia]

Hi Gene, yes its definatly a Shabria, charm ring an all. ;)

Spiral

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/shib.jpg

Hi Mate
No I meant I couldn't find a pic as good as the two you posted.... Does the one I posted have a charm link?
(the sepia toned one)

[spiral]

Hi Mate
No I meant I couldn't find a pic as good as the two you posted.... Does the one I posted have a charm link?
(the sepia toned one)

Sorry, I misunderstood, well Ive blown your photo up & the grip certanly looks like a shabriya!

There also appears to be a hole where a link could be fitted.

I wonder how old the photo is? I wonder when Bedouin stopped using Matchlocks?

spiral

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/shibri.jpg

[Atlantia]

Sorry, I misunderstood, well Ive blown your photo up & the grip certanly looks like a shabriya!

There also appears to be a hole where a link could be fitted.

I wonder how old the photo is? I wonder when Bedouin stopped using Matchlocks?

spiral

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/shibri.jpg


Oh yes :)
I know nothing about the Bedouin, especially the origins of their weapons, so I wondered from looking at his gun and sword, if this photo (like many of that era) was somewhat staged?

[broadaxe]

Nice photo of the late King Hussein of Jordan (here very young):

[Dom]

It would be nice to see other old ones if anyone has them?
Hi spiral
here you'll found every thing in pic's;
-Shabria
- Beduin, and not Ashkenazi Orthodox Jew dressed like a Beduin :p
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11899&highlight=shabriya

enjoy :D

à +

Dom

[Warren McQ]

Thanks Much, Could you share more of your impression of this knife and the three pronged pommel ?
I'd like to know what it all means and about the era in which it was made.
Thanks Much,
Warren in Arizona

Indeed, Warren's bone handled specimen is rare, the three-pronged pommel is less common but this is the first I see with a bone handle. I think, though, its sheath has been made later, in the 1950's & onwards fashion.

[spiral]

Thanks Dom, id missed that thread somehow, interesting pictures!

Thanks Broadaxe for the Kings photo!

spiral