Keris Betok on Ebay

[mykeris]

Dear friends,
What do you think of this keris, ended listing recently on ebay? Could it be a fake one? Thanks in advance, mykeris.

[David]

Well of course it could be fake. I doubt very much that we could possibly reach any conclusion based solely on these photographs. I notice quite a lot of these coming though ePray on a regular basis. Sometimes they list them as new, sometimes not. Sorting out the difference without the experience and hands-on examination is only guess work IMO. :shrug: :)
Did it sell BTW?

[mykeris]

taken David.tq

[mykeris]

just checking, is the genuine one heavy or lighter? tq

[A. G. Maisey]

I will very seldom commit myself on the basis of a photo viewed on a computer screen, however I am prepared to commit myself here.

This keris is most definitely not an old keris.

[mykeris]

Noted and thanks Alan, excellent opinion. Mykeris.

[PenangsangII]

I am wondering about it too.... is the genuine old ones lighter or heavier.... I've seen very light weight and thin bladed jalak buda but it was found in South Sulawesi (dressed Javanese). It seemed quite old probably more than 300 yrs old. But still I am quite skeptical whether it was a genuine blade or not. Please enlighten.

[A. G. Maisey]

There's a lot more to it than just being light or heavy, Penangsang.

I've focussed on archaic blades for many years, and have a fairly good collection of them, however, I will not post photos of my personal keris, so I'm sorry, but I cannot give examples.

With this particular one I know through personal experience exactly what I am looking at, and this is because of a combination of factors, factors that I am not prepared to expand upon here.

Still, it is only an opinion, and everybody is entitled to their own.

[PenangsangII]

Many thanks Alan.

There are many betok and jalak buda (even Sombro) keris currently in the market including on line. Some web sites even guarantee such kerises as genuinely of Kadiri, Jenggala or Singhasari tangguh.

Like David's term "Eprey", I am very cautious when buying on-line.

[A. G. Maisey]

Well, all this current fixation with tangguh is understandable. When its all said and done, its opinion, and anybody can have an opinion.

But there is a difference between an informed opinion and an uninformed opinion.

There is also a difference between truth and deliberate misrepresentation.

How we buy is always a balance of how much we know personally, and how much we can trust the people we buy from. Probably some things from unknown sellers on Ebay are OK, but I've never been brave enough to take the gamble. What happens if I make a mistake? Then I'm stuck with something I don't want and cannot sell ---if I sell it and it becomes associated with me I lose a lot more than just a few $$$.

I did buy a keris off Ebay once, but it was one I had sold some years before. I knew it.

Regular dealers who sell from a site should be trustworthy, but regrettably not all are. Maybe their honesty depends upon whether you're a recognised friend of the dealer, or just another dumb beginner who isn't yet out of kindergarten.

With tangguh, I feel that if somebody quotes a tangguh in a sales speil it would be quite legitimate for a prospective buyer to ask the seller exactly what the specific indicators are that have allowed him to form the opinion that the item is, for instance, Majapahit. As I said, there is opinion and informed opinion. An informed opinion should be able to be supported.

[David]

Like David's term "Eprey", I am very cautious when buying on-line.
The term i used Penangsang, was ePray, and i would never claim that one as my own. Your term, ePrey, implies something completely different, yet just as true about eBay. I think i like your term better. ;) :)

[mykeris]

Appreciate if Alan could just a little bit analyze the shortcomings of this blade as compared to the so called genuine budo. Thanks in advance.mykeris.Photo: exctracted from Ebay. Note: I had a similar blade purchased from ebay long time ago (quite pricely) and sold it to one Indonesian Keris Collector who claimed it to be a genuine blade. It was heavy with deteriorating blade like one shown in pic. Really confused me. p/s: Penangsang: TQ.

[A. G. Maisey]

Sorry, but I'm not going to do that.

Let's just say that I know exactly where this originated and exactly what it has experienced since.

I've given an opinion on this, and that's where it stops.

[mykeris]

TQ.

[mykeris]

[QUOTE=David]The term i used Penangsang, was ePray, and i would never claim that one as my own. Your term, ePrey, implies something completely different, yet just as true about eBay. I think i like your term better. ;) :)[/QUOTE

Good to stay neutral which I used to, I would advise not to offend other true on-line sellers.

[David]

[QUOTE=David]The term i used Penangsang, was ePray, and i would never claim that one as my own. Your term, ePrey, implies something completely different, yet just as true about eBay. I think i like your term better. ;) :)[/QUOTE

Good to stay neutral which I used to, I would advise not to offend other true on-line sellers.
Thanks for the advice MyKeris, but I think that any "true on-line seller" (which i assume you mean to say honest on-liner seller) is obviously not the type of seller i refer to in the use of this terminology. These honest sellers are well aware that they are surrounded by a peer group that very often actively attempts to deceive prospective bidders and buyers. And so they do indeed prey on bidders and the bidders do at time need to pray themselves. To act on the assumption that any seller is telling you the whole truth, even if they are, will no doubt lead to many disappointing purchases. So the buyer must always beware in on-line auctions like eBay.
The honest dealers know who they are and have nothing to fear. I have in no way insulted them. The dishonest dealers i have no care for and as the old saying goes, "If the shoe fits, wear it". :)

[mykeris]

Loud & clear, David. Rgrds, Mykeris :)
On the second thought, what is wrong with this keris David? Is it contradicting the standard buda form or fake material or .....somethig else? Some awesome faking samples would be good to see. Pls advise me, thanks in advance. :)

[Rick]

Loud & clear, David. Rgrds, Mykeris :)
On the second thought, what is wrong with this keris David? Is it contradicting the standard buda form or fake material or .....somethig else? Some awesome faking samples would be good to see. Pls advise me, thanks in advance. :)

The problem is that by discussing the whys and hows the Forger is educated right along with the Members . :(

[David]

Loud & clear, David. Rgrds, Mykeris :)
On the second thought, what is wrong with this keris David? Is it contradicting the standard buda form or fake material or .....somethig else? Some awesome faking samples would be good to see. Pls advise me, thanks in advance. :)
I can only refer you back to my original answer to you in post #2.
I have made no claims in regards to the authenticity of this particular keris buda, nor am i about to, so i have nothing to advise you on. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Precisely Rick.

I know of one family in East Jawa that has been producing intentional forgeries of fake keris buda and other archaic forms, for at least thirty years. I say "family" because it was originally one man, but I have heard that his son began working with the father a couple of years ago.

These forgeries are excellent, and I have been stung once.

Going back a few years keris buda were not particularly valuable and not particularly sought after, however, that is now very, very different. A good, genuine keris buda will bring a very heavy price indeed. We're not talking small money here, we are talking very serious money. But only for the real thing.

In some areas it is best to keep information to oneself.

[Battara]

That is the sad thing. First it was fake katanas on eprey. Then fake Moro kris and gunong (and many are). Now fake older keris. Sad really..... :rolleyes:

[Rick]

Thank you Alan .

This area is a land best ventured into well armed with true knowledge, not heresay from a public forum .

[A. G. Maisey]

Battara, keris that purport to be what they are not have been around forever.

Long before either you or I were born.

Museums and noted, published collections have their share of them.

Its taken me most of my life to reach a point where I'm fairly confident I can pick a pretender, but let me emphasise that "fairly confident" . I can be fooled, exactly the same as virtually all the really well known, big-name people have been fooled, including the biggest, most influential and most knowledgeable.

We need to be pretty careful where keris are concerned. One reason why I will not buy on photos from somebody I do not know. Its hard enough to know what you've got when its in your hand, often almost impossible when its not --- unless you have some prior knowledge or experience.

[Alam Shah]

The problem is that by discussing the whys and hows the Forger is educated right along with the Members . :(Precisely, why some members are reluctant to impart knowledge or indicators regarding identifying forgeries in an open forum. This type of info is best kept in private discussions..

I was told that part of the reason why a keris betok, buda might be highly sought after, may be due to its supposedly having properties suitable to be used as a 'keris tindih', sort of a 'suppressant' keris to keep negative vibes from other kerises in check. Whether it is true or not, that's another story..

[A. G. Maisey]

Like many things in the keris belief system, Shahrial, if you believe it, its true.

[mykeris]

'big-name people have been fooled, including the biggest, most influential and most knowledgeable.'

Yes, you and I could be fooled too. Note: How sure are you on your budas, Alan? It could be fooled again! :)

[A. G. Maisey]

I bought my first keris buda in about 1970 or 1972.

I started to study them seriously in about 1980.

Apart from experience in handling both genuine and non-genuine KB's I have put together a fairly comprehensive file on KB's, including the indicators for falsification and the indicators for genuine, and the people who are known in the trade for either presenting or creating falsifications of KB's.

Yes, I could be fooled again, but not easily, and not in negatives, but only in positives. What I mean by this is that a KB could be presented to me that I mistook for genuine, when in fact it was not, however, a KB that I identified as not genuine I would be very confident was not genuine.

[mykeris]

Noted and Thanks Alan. Well said. Regards, Mykeris.

[PenangsangII]

for somebody who is technically very less knowledgeable like me, the other option would be "tayuh" by very respectable "penayuh" esp on blade that I suspect as fake or even new very well made keris (artificially aged).

But then again, some dealers manage to imbue "isian" by getting helps from some kyai or bomoh :rolleyes: :(

[mykeris]

My dear Penangsang, Identification through tayuhan is something very very subjective to me, no doubt is right at times but always fall a victim to somebody else.. I would still prefer the logical way of what Alan is doing via research with concrete sampling.

However, Alan could have overlooked at something that he has never encountered before which few people did. Thus, opinion differs. Most of his samples are of deteriorated blades as a result of being buried underground hundreds of years ago. My question is: What happen to those Keris Budos which never experienced the 'ruin' and passed down with special care?. Would the blade look something horrible, 'cripple' like what Alan and I is keeping or just as smooth as it was. Could it be light in weight or how the wesi look like?

I would not swallow everything what Alan said unless he represents the Indonesian majority. However, my personal opinion is: it is still very very safe to absorb Alan's opinion due to his excellent findings and links to distinguished people of keris in Indonesia.

At the same time, I will keep my options open. :)

[PenangsangII]

thks mykeris, ofcourse in determining the authenticity of a keris we should thoroughly inspect the physical aspect of the blade ist... Tayuh is a totally different method and objective altogether.

I even encountered a newly made koden from madura, but when it was tayuhed, it admitted origin back in demak era..... ,-)

[David]

MyKeris, you seem to to be deeply invested in convincing us that this is indeed an authentic Keris Buda. Is this keris now yours or are you looking to obtain it. Perhaps instead of pushing for members here to explain why they believe it is not authentic you could point out the aspects of this blade that seem to have you convinced that it is authentic.
Of course, much better photographs with extreme close-ups would probably aid in such a discussion.

"I would not swallow everything what Alan said unless he represents the Indonesian majority."
I'm not at all sure what this is supposed to mean. In a world that is as subjective as the keris world is, what exactly is an "Indonesian majority" and why does it matter in this instance? Are you suggesting a coalition of keris experts from across the entire archipelago (representatives from Malaysian as well of course) would come to some majority of agreement on anything to do with keris. Or are you speaking of a majority of the Indonesians represented only on this board? Or perhaps we could poll the entire populous of Indonesia on this keris buda and see what they all think. ;) :)

[mykeris]

Noted and Thank you, have a nice weekend. Rgrds, Mykeris.. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

I was tempted to put up a post on the vagaries of tayuh yesterday, Penangsang.

Then I thought better of it.

But you've opened this, so here is a little bit more.

My daughter's brother in law is very, very kejawen. A few years ago his wife passed away, and at the same time he retired from work. At this point he became very interested in keris, and began to acquire some. He only keeps keris that have a spirit in them, and that spirit must be either a pangeran or a kyai. He determines this by sleeping with the keris under his pillow and he knows from the dream he has if the keris has a spirit and what it is. Some of his keris are brand new, but they still have a spirit in them. According to him the spirit was already in the iron before the keris was made. He has been marginalised in the family because everybody thinks he is no longer all there.

Additional to this.

Over many years I have seen a number of keris that had been subjected to tayuh by noted and respected people associated with the Kraton Surakarta. All had some isi. Again, some of these keris were recent productions, usually from Madura. On the one occasion when I had the opportunity to question the man who did the actual dreaming, I was told the same thing:- yes, the keris is new, but the iron is very ancient and has life --- the isi was already in the iron before the keris was made.

There are many beliefs associated with keris. For somebody who believes, these things are real.

But if you don't believe, don't argue or try to convince otherwise, just accept that the other person believes, and walk away.

[GIO]

Just a short comment.
Have you noted that all keris claimed to be old (XVII cent.- or even before!) offered over the web are without any sign of rust ?
This is very interesting, considering that even recently-made keris have sometimes small signs of rust

[David]

Just a short comment.
Have you noted that all keris claimed to be old (XVII cent.- or even before!) offered over the web are without any sign of rust ?
This is very interesting, considering that even recently-made keris have sometimes small signs of rust
I don't know GIO, i have keris that are 17th century and much earlier that have no obvious signs of rust. It's all about the maintenance. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, correct David.

It all depends on how the blade has been looked after.

[GIO]

Yes, that's true, but isn't it suspicious that ALL antique blades have been carefully looked after ?

[A. G. Maisey]

They haven't.

But if I had an old rusty keris that I wanted to sell, I'd clean it and stain it before I offered it for sale.

Everybody in the whole world who understands the beginning of anything about keris will do the same.

It is the correct thing to do with a keris:- you clean them and stain them.

So maybe the maintenance has been done regularly over a period of years, maybe it has only been done once , just before it was offered for sale, but whenever it has been done, it will result in a keris appearing with no rust on the blade.

[GIO]

Yes,OK, I agree

[Krikor]

Hello gentlemen I received last week this infamous Keris Betok from ebay, it is thick and heavy. As it looks under close examination it looks old, it is hard to tell how old, there are dark brown heavy aged patinas. You all are wright there is nothing close then able having it in your hand to look at very closely and to feel it. The jury is still out, if it is the real McCoy that would be bonus to my collection. Sometimes there will be a reward one who takes the leap of fate.

[David]

Hello gentlemen I received last week this infamous Keris Betok from ebay, it is thick and heavy. As it looks under close examination it looks old, it is hard to tell how old, there are dark brown heavy aged patinas. You all are wright there is nothing close then able having it in your hand to look at very closely and to feel it. The jury is still out, if it is the real McCoy that would be bonus to my collection. Sometimes there will be a reward one who takes the leap of fate.
There may not be a consensus on this keris Krikor, but i would hardly say that the jury is still out.
Welcome to the forum BTW.
:)