Lance head ?? Indo Persian? Seller stated African

[katana]

Hi
bought what I believe to be a lance head. The seller thought African, if it is, I have never seen anything like it. Although I have seen facetted sockets on a few African spears , I have never seen one with a very thick, diamond section blade. I think India is more likely, skillfully hand forged with forged 'fullering' ......seems to be designed for 'armour piercing'. The head is 'too good' to 'throw', so perhaps a hand held stabbing spear. It has good patination and would not be surprised if this is 18th C.
The reddish stripe (socket) is not clearly visible to the naked eye . I only noticed it on the photo's :shrug:

Has anyone any ideas or comments please, thank you

Regards David

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[Royston]

David

Can't give you an definitive origin but I tend to agree with you about it not being African.
It looks as though it is designed to punch through mail or armour, so India would be my bet, unless it's European ?

Regards
Roy

[mahratt]

I think, it most likely India. Not Europe. I have a similar spear from the central India.

[Battara]

I'm with Mahratt, I think it is Indian, especially with the 3 sided blade.

[Rick]

How about a Lance Head ?
Looks more like that than a Spear, IMO . :shrug:
The (metuk; Java.) meaning the base of the point; shows a similar Eastern influence common to the area . :shrug:

[mahratt]

You are certainly right! Lans Head. I translate in "translit" so in advance I apologize for weight of errors :)

[Rick]

You are certainly right! Lans Head. I translate in "translit" so in advance I apologize for weight of errors :)

Not a problem . :)
I understood .

I just see a similarity in the 'Metuk', or base ; to many Indo-Malay spears . :)

Simply an uneducated observation on my part . :) ;)

Rick

[katana]

Thank you Gentlemen for your replies :) ,

So generally agreed possibly Indian. Rick your suggestion of a SEA is interesting....for some reason I wondered if this was from Southern India which have weapon features that have influenced / have been influenced by SEA.

Hi Battara,
although the pictures give the impression that the head is 3 sided, it is in fact 4 sided, a diamond shaped cross section. Max width viewed from above is 30mm (1 1/4") ....viewed from side max width is 16mm ( 5/8" )

The red 'band' on the socket is only just noticeable in certain lighting conditions. It seems to 'bleed through' the very dark stablised patina. Not obvious is the very tip is slightly bent and blunted. I do not believe this was 'abuse', but combat damage the overall patina is the same as with the rest of the head and socket.
This damage is consistant with great impact force....perhaps again suggesting a cavalry lance.

One of the 'fullers' out of the 4 is slightly longer. It seems that it has a impressed stamp, which is too worn / corroded to see but, the outline of its 'border' seems almost rectangular 4mm x3mm slightly above that (and centrally) there is a small faded 'something'....under magnification these two combined almost appear to be a crown but like looking at clouds and making out shapes, the more you try to 'see' ....the more the mind 'creates'. :shrug:

Any ideas as to the red 'band' :shrug: thank you

Kind Regards David


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[Rick]

There is a red painted band just above the ferrule of my Parang Nabur/Barbary Pirate sword .
Just information to throw in there . :shrug:

Are you sure this is hand forged ?

It almost looks cast from what I can see . :confused:

[Tim Simmons]

The other end of a spear????

[katana]

It almost looks cast from what I can see . :confused:


Hi Rick :) ,
could you please explain what you mean by 'cast' .....and why you think this item is made from it, thanks.

David

[Rick]

Let's see some more detailed pictures of the faceted socket please . :)

It looks so uniform from your pix . :shrug:

No waves in the surface; thick ... :shrug:

[katana]

Hi Rick :) ,
I will try and get clearer close-ups and post them.

Using a loupe I have been checking the surface to clues for the type of construction ....and discovered, what I think, is small amounts of silver koftgari designs. Near impossible to photograph clearly but evidence of stripes, a chevron and circles with small rays (sun ?).

Now I have a problem, take the risk of removing the very old patina to reveal the remaining koftgari (good idea if a lot of it remains)....or leave as is ???

Regards David

[Rick]

By all means ....

Leave as is ! ;)

From your pictures it just looks so uniform; no waves, lumps etc. :confused:

[katana]

Hi Rick,
when you mentioned 'cast' ....I originally assumed you meant 'crucible steel. Weapons and tools were made from cast and were often marked 'warranted cast steel' as a sign of the quality of metal.

Now, I understand ...what you meant by cast was mould (mold ;) ) 'formed' .

All I can say is the surface is covered in 'micro pitting' caused by corrosion and not bubbles form during casting. The 'fullering' seems forged although under high magnification I can see some fine scratches, in line with the fullers...possibly grinding/file marks to 'tidy them up'.

The socket is only hollow for 2/3 of its length the remaining third nearest the head is solid. Which again suggests to me that this design is to sustain 'hard impact'. ie the shaft end fitted into the socket would be flat (spreading the impact force) usually it would be pointed. The best analogy would be stiletto heels on a wooden floor compared to 'flat' shoes.....not that I've worn 'stiletto's recently :D

The koftgari also strongly suggests that this was not a 'throw away' item, so throwing spear is very unlikely......surely it has to be a lance head ???

I must admit I am 'itching' to find out what is hidden below the black stabilised rust layer (is there a name for this :confused: ) but do not want to remove 'the age' from the piece. What if I carefully clean one of the facets of the blade ??? leaving the other 3 'natural' . If there is a lot of the koftgari surviving below this layer, it would give more information ....but would it de-value the piece ???

All opinions gratefully received

Regards David

[Tim Simmons]

David, is there any way you can show the marks on this piece. A picture, rubbing or just copy then to a piece of paper. I am most interested to see. I have been doing some digging. The red paint is also interesting.

[katana]

Hi Tim,
thanks for your interest. Heres a drawn picture



Kind Regards David

[Tim Simmons]

Interesting. Could it be just engraving? Are they like Indian symbols? The placing and minimalism does not remind me of Idian work. I could see some similarity to Adinkra symbols? It might even be a piece of iron in a ritual context? The red paint might have some relavance?

[katana]

Hi Tim,
the dark rust stablised patination covers around 98% of the surface, I decided to use a nylon type 'washing up' scourer to clean the surrounding area..... using a lot of water and gentle pressure.

This has nearly entirely removed the design :( , the design was a dull/shiny silver colour. I am convinced that this was the remains of koftgari which due to corrosion had 'lifted' from the steel and was held in 'suspension' in the stablised patina. I had sucessfully removed some of this layer....but in doing so had also removed much of the 'noticeable' koftgari :( :o

The 'sun' sign was only around 3mm in size and was very precise , as were the surviving lines.

Still, believing that it was indeed koftgari and the taking into account that this piece might be circa 18th C. I have concluded that the steel may be of quality ....perhaps even wootz (although I'm not holding my breath). I have decided to clean the 'head' and try an etch.

I am leaving the socket, as is, at the moment....until I can find out the relevance of the red ring.

All the best,

Kind Regards David

PS. I have found the 'remains' of another identical 'sun' sign next to the edge, just below one of the fullers

[katana]

The saga continues....after further cleaning I have found faint flower motifs, decorated borders and other very fine design detailing in varying amounts. The sides of the head have symmetrical designs (either side of the midrib), so where some of the designs are worn on one side of the blade they are sometimes evident on the other.

At first glance they seem to be acid etched but am almost certain that they are the remaining imprints of the koftgari which has 'marked' the steel. Perhaps these are caused by the remaining silver particles or some sort of electrolytic action between the silver and steel :shrug:

Of what I can make out the designs are definately India.

The steel does appear to be possibly wootz, the difficulty is due to the remaining designs which give the 'appearance' of 'patterning'.

On older pieces was koftgari mainly used on quality steel such as wootz ? Should I clean and polish a window and etch ? All comments and opinions apreciated, thank you

Regards David

[katana]

Below is a picture of a Khanda hilt, the Koftgari designs are very similar to the visible 'ghosting' marks I can see in the spear head.

Would these designs be common to certain areas of India, or groups or are they fairly common ?

Regards David


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[dketch]

Originally Posted by katana

Yours seems very similar to something I have .....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=lance

Regards David



Wow! David, your spear top looks almost identical in shape and size to the one I bought. Do you think my pike was built in the same area or timeframe as the one you have? If so, any idea as to when / where it was made?

VERY interesting....

- Doug