Help with Identification please [Archive] - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

A. G. Maisey

28th August 2010, 04:18 AM

My response is interpolated:-

Interesting posts.
I have at my disposal (listed in ease of obtainability in NZ):

pineapple syrup (canned pineapple slices in syrup)
YOU CAN FORGET THIS.
WHAT YOU NEED IS PINEAPPLE JUICE.I'M IN AUSTRALIA AND I USE GOLDEN CIRCLE, WHICH USED TO EXPORT TO NZ.GOLDEN CIRCLE IS NOW OWNED BY HIENZ FOODS A US COMPANY, YOU MIGHT LIKE TO RING THEM AND ASK IF PINEAPPLE JUICE IS AVAILABLE IN NZ

malt and white vinegar
CHEAPEST WHITE VINEGAR IS OK.
IF ITS A BIT TOO ACIDIC, WHICH YOU CAN GAUGE BY THE SPEED WITH WHICH IT REMOVES RUST, YOU CAN ADD A BIT OF WATER TO DILUTE IT

cooking tamarind solution
NEVER USED IT ON KERIS
BUT ITS ACIDIC AND WOULD WORK AS WOULD ANY OTHER MILDLY ACIDIC LIQUID
I HAVE USED PINEAPPLE JUICE FOR YEARS AND I LIKE IT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW LONG YOU LEAVE THE BLADE IN THE J8ICE YOU WILL NEVER DAMAGE IT.

methylated spirits (denatured alcohol)
METHO IS NOT A REAL GOOD DEGREASER
YOU SHOULD ALSO BE ABLE TO BUY MINERAL TURPENTINE (TURPS) ITS PRETTY HARD TO PAINT WITH ENAMELS IF DON'T HAVE TURPS.
BUT AS I'VE ALREADY SAID:- ALL YOU REALLY NEED IS DISHWASH, AND YOU CAN GET THAT ANYWHERE

kerosene
FORGET KERO

isopropyl alcohol (70% solution)
NEVER HEARD OF IT

I feel a potential project coming on. I'll have a look for posts on cleaning and depending on availability of time try and use from the above ingredients to clean up the blade.
Any pointers greatly appreciated.
THIS SUBJECT HAS BEEN ADDRESSED MANY TIMES IN THIS FORUM
ITS A DEAD SIMPLE JOB AND ONLY NEEDS DEAD SIMPLE MATERIALS AND PROCEDURES.

A. G. Maisey

28th August 2010, 04:20 AM

It came up OK didn't it Rick?

A. G. Maisey

28th August 2010, 06:10 AM

This is a pic of a Bali blade that has been in pineapple juice for about a week. It has been taken out most days and scrubbed with an old toothbrush, the hard bits of rust have been picked off with an old file ground to a point, it has been scrubbed with sink cleaner, steel wool, and a scotchbrite pad.

The pic was taken today after it had been removed from the pineapple juice and just rinsed off with water.

As you can see, the pamor has started to come up, and for some people this would be an adequate finish. I will give it a couple more days of soaking, then I'll hit with lime juice and arsenic, and the end result will be that the ferric material will be a lot darker, however, if you don't like handling arsenic, or cannot obtain it, this finish would be a whole lot better than the red-rust all-over finish it had before I started.

Ignore the blade shape, its distorted because I took it at an angle so the pamor could be seen.

Rick

28th August 2010, 03:43 PM

It came up OK didn't it Rick?

Hi Alan,
There wasn't much contrast to begin with; but yes, it did come up a bit .

kai

30th August 2010, 01:02 AM

I have at my disposal (listed in ease of obtainability in NZ):

Look at the corner for exotic fruit juice in large supermarkets (most likely available in tetrapacks). However, make sure to get pure juice rather than diluted stuff with added sugar, etc. (100% juice from concentrate is ok IME.)

This juice still contains a lot of fruit particles but can be utilized as is for cleaning purposes. Filtering doesn't work - if you let a pack stand for a long time, you can decant maybe 2/3 of the volume as reasonably clear juice. I'm not convinced that this extra effort really helps the arsenic restaining though...

Regards,
Kai

imas560

30th August 2010, 01:14 AM

Out shopping today and found the following on special.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/juice.jpg

Rick

30th August 2010, 01:35 AM

Looks good .
Got something the right size to soak the blade in ?

imas560

30th August 2010, 02:28 AM

A suspension immersion tube has been playing on my mind.
Was thinking of cutting the top straight off one of the packs and suspending the keris (with the handle wrapped in cling wrap/gladwrap, I've been poring over posts) but that might be a waste of pineapple juice. Am going to hunt around for a couple of clear plastic drink bottles that'll just take the blade. Maybe cut the bottom off one and the top off the other, sleeve them together, couple of clear plastic bags (one in the other), fill with juice and see what happens. Oh and sellotape coz it's always useful.
The handle is on very tight so am not wanting to separate at the moment.

Rick

30th August 2010, 03:27 AM

I don't know where you live; but if you have a discount store that sells cheap art glass like our TJ Maxx, or Marshall's you can sometimes find inexpensive glass vases with a deep V shape that can be got cheaply . ;)

There is also PVC pipe with a cap glued on one end . :)

A. G. Maisey

30th August 2010, 10:34 AM

Yeah, that Golden Circle is what I use. For many years it was not possible to buy it without added sugar, and that's what I used for a very long time. Works just as well, but in hot weather the mold forms up on the surface quicker.

If you can find one, a wall paper trough is the best soak utensil I know of.

Rick's suggestion of pvc pipe with caps glued on works well too--- but once you glue the caps on you cut it in half lengthwise.4"X2" square section pipe is the best.

If all else fails all you need do is make a long narrow box out of corrugated cardboard and line it with plactic. That black garden plastic is good, but a couple plastic garbage bags will work OK too.

BigG

30th August 2010, 11:10 AM

I am inclined to use a canned M'sian product of pure pineapple juice that is easily found here in S'pore. Cant remember the brand though, failing which theres always freshly squeezed lime juice, that would be good too.

When I am terribly short of time... as is often the case... I have tried using a dishwashing paste that contains lemon or lime extracts... dont know whether you have it where you are... brand name Axion... add in some water to soften the paste up and slather a layer of it on the blade... wait for for a while.. longer for a deeper cleansing action... anything from 1/2 hour to an hour or more... then a good scrub with a toothbrush under running water would clean away grease & much rust. But be aware that it would whiten the blade...

For a cheap container you may wish to consider slitting lengthwise one half of one of those huge coke, pet bottles. Then rest in on something stable..

imas560

30th August 2010, 11:05 PM

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I'll keep an eye out for the items when I'm next at the shops. I have the kit just about ready to start and will take photos to post.
I'll try and make from items readily available around the house.

A. G. Maisey

31st August 2010, 01:34 PM

You cannot properly clean a blade unless you remove the hilt.

That is the first thing you must do.

Its a very easy thing to do, you just heat the sorsoran gently and let the heat build up while you work the hilt backwards and forth to free it. The technique has been mentioned in this Forum a number of times.A candle or small kerosene lamp is probably the best thing to use for this.

It is easy. It is essential.

If you do not want to do this, you had best forget about pineapple juice and soaking. You can do a partial clean by repeatedly brushing with lime juice or lemon juice. It does not do anything like a decent job, but at least it is better that the high probability of damage to hilt or mendak by trying to clean using the soak method, with the hilt attached.

imas560

31st August 2010, 11:08 PM

I read in a couple of posts about heating with a blowtorch but I'll give the candle a go. Also spotted a couple of posts dealing with a hilt that had been glued but I hope it won't come to that.

I am planning on the following process:
1. remove hilt
2. degrease
3. soak in juice
then daily (well as close to daily as possible)
4. scrub with toothbrush
5. re-soak
repeat till blade cleaned
6. lime juice and arsenic (optional depending on obtaining arsenic)
7. oil
8. re-hilt

What is a good indicator that a blade has been sufficiently cleaned to treat with lime and arsenic?
How frequently to change out the juice?
Also posts mention keris oil, where can this be sourced? and what is it's closest readily available equivalent?
Many thanks

Rick

31st August 2010, 11:47 PM

Light Mineral Oil is what it's called in the US .
Can be scented with a bit cendana (sandlewood) oil .

Pure Sandalwood is nigh impossible to get these days and is very expensive .

A. G. Maisey

1st September 2010, 01:42 AM

Yes, I have mentioned a couple of times that I use a gas torch, but I have never recommended this for use, because if you're new at this game, it is too difficult to control. A candle or a small kero lamp is never ever going to damage the blade through too much heat.Others may also have mentioned a torch, but maybe they have the experience to gauge the correct amount of heat. Its not a good tool for somebody without experience to use.

Apart from the daily scrubbing with a toothbrush you also need to pick any little bits of hard rust off with a sharp metal tool. A saddler's awl is good, so is an old three sided file ground to a point.

Depending on how rusty the blade is you can also scrub with steel wool and sink cleaner during the cleaning period.

When you consider the blade to be clean, you need to scrub with steel wool and sink cleaner to get it white, before you begin to stain it. If you cannot get arsenic, and you're satisfied with the result out of the pineapple juice, then obviously you don't whiten the blade.If you decide to leave the blade as is out of the juice, you need to ensure that you get every last trace of juice off that blade, dry it immediately and then dry with a hair dryer.Spray with WD40 and allow to stand over night.

You'll easily see when its clean, because there will be no rust left on it. None at all.

You don't need to change the juice. In hot weather it will grow a fungus on top, which stinks and is unsightly, but this can just be lifted off and thrown away. In cool weather it will stay clear of fungus.

As Rick has said, sandalwood oil is not easy to get and is expensive. Sandalwood is the smell of the traditional oil. In Jawa this is added to a coconut oil base. In fact, other oils are also used, and the coconut oil used in Jawa is not necessarily ideal as a base. The best protection will be afforded by a good gun oil. Light machine oil is also OK. If you can find an alternate lifestyle shop/ hippy shop or even a health food store, you'll find that they probably sell essential oils. You may find sandalwood there, or some other acceptable oil such as jasmin or rose, you can mix one of these essential oils with medicinal parrafin, and that will give you an acceptable keris oil.Essential oils are used in aroma therapy, and in Australia you can find an acceptable oil almost anywhere, even in small country towns.You don't need much of the essential oil to give the parrafin a decent smell.

I always wrap a freshly cleaned,stained, oiled blade in plastic. This will give protection against deterioration for a very long time.

BigG

1st September 2010, 06:20 AM

I used Wahl brand light machine oil. It is odourless and colourless. It is a brand generally associated with hair clippers. To this, I would blend in my own mix of floral scent... i guess this is easier found here in my back of the woods... but essential oils use in aromatherapy.. like Mr Maisey has said, workswell too.

You may consider using a mix of something sweet and floral like jasmine, rose etc and cut it wth a bit of something citrusy.. This is to prevent the overpowering presence of the floral note.

Once you mix these oils they should generally dissolve together... if not just leave it to collect at the base of the container as it will still transmit is fragrance to the rest of the oil. use only the top clear portion when oiling your keris.. hope this wld help...

rgds

PenangsangII

3rd September 2010, 04:34 AM

to play it safe, in order to remove the hilt that is attached to the pesi using damar/jabung etc, just soak the entire hilt in boiled water.... in less than 3 minutes, normally the hilt can easily be removed.

And to clean the blade safely, just soak it in water (best is pure water coming down from waterfall or spring water...) mix with fresh pineapple cubes (pineapple skin is better) and mengkudu (Morinda Citrifolia). This is traditional method practised by Javanese living in Malaysia.

A. G. Maisey

3rd September 2010, 04:59 AM

That's playing it safe?

Interesting approach.

PenangsangII

3rd September 2010, 05:05 AM

That's playing it safe?

Interesting approach.

Playing it safe in the sense that this way the blade meets minimum contact to heat, torch etc.... I know that this way, the hilt could be ruined or damaged, but the main issue is to preserve the keris blade, not the dress....

and in my limited experience, never once I damaged the hilt removed this way..

David

3rd September 2010, 05:40 AM

to play it safe, in order to remove the hilt that is attached to the pesi using damar/jabung etc, just soak the entire hilt in boiled water.... in less than 3 minutes, normally the hilt can easily be removed.

:eek: Wow...that seems really excessive to me. It is pretty sure to do damage to the finish of the hilt i would think. Sure the blade is the most important element, but i see no reason to endanger a nice hilt in this manner. The heat required to loosen a blade is not nearly as dangerous to the blade.

BigG

3rd September 2010, 06:34 AM

:eek: Wow...that seems really excessive to me.

Gentlemen, Its all a matter of perspective. The method described by Penangsang is pretty much in used in M'sia & S'pore... I cant speak for Indonesia as I am not certain about the practices ther. But the main objective is to save the blade... & especially the peksi.

As I have writtn elsewhere here, the Malay perspective of the value & the strength of the keris resides in the peksi. The peksi & the blade needs to be protected above all else. On top of that, being in Malaysia and S'pore, getting access to excellent qlty hilts, whether newly made or antique is farmore relatively easier.

Thus, a combination of all this factors wld make the method decribed by Penangsang not seen to excessive at all and in fact to be very apt. So its a matter of context.

Another example is the placement of the hilts. When a hilt is not properly oriented when received & when they are unable to be removed by all other methods... I have known many serious collectors to have made the decision to destroy the hilt by hacking it off in order to save the blade, protect the peksi and ensure that the hilt is placed in the correct orientation rather then leaving it be. Again its a mtter of context. Blade & peksi first... hilts... to many collectors here is secondary...

A. G. Maisey

3rd September 2010, 09:21 AM

The advice I have already given is based upon this:-

I have in excess of 55 years collecting, buying, selling, making, restoring keris.

Apart from what I have taught myself, I have learnt Javanese methods of restoration from several mranggis, including two who were in my employ for many years. One of these men was the son, and grandson of mranggis.

I have learnt other aspects of keris manufacture and restoration from several blade makers.

I have also made a very large number of damascus and carbon steel blades and was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for a number of years.

The way in which heat can damage a blade is by heating it to a point where the temper will be drawn. The area of the blade that is heated to remove a hilt is almost never heat treated in a keris blade, thus there is no temper to draw.

The heat generated by a candle or a small kerosene lamp is not sufficient to damage a blade in any way at all.It is not possible to raise the temperature of a blade to the point where temper can be drawn, by use of a candle or kerosene lamp.

Hilt to blade can be secured by rust, cloth, hair, damar, jabung, or shellac, or in some cases a modern glue or epoxy resin.

Boiling water may soften jabung if the wax content is sufficiently high, but it will have no effect on rust, damar, shellac or epoxy resin.

Boiling water will cause cloth to expand at approximately the same rate that it causes wood to expand, because of this there is a risk of splitting the wood in the hilt.

That risk of splitting applies in all cases as soon as the hilt enters the boiling water.

If the hilt does not split, depending upon the finish that has been applied to the hilt, it will possibly need refinishing.

In my most humble opinion the practice here related of immersing a complete hilt into boiling water in order to remove it from a blade is most certainly barbaric and verges upon idiocy.

I accept what has been related , that this is common practice in Singapore and Malaysia, and this being the case, it tells me all I need to know about the professionalism and skill of the people who engage in this practice.

Regrettably Big G I must disagree with you that this is a matter of perspective.

It is not.

It is a matter of professional standards.

The dominant professional standard to be applied in the restoration of any keris is to proceed in a way that will cause no damage to the keris. No damage to blade. No damage to hilt. No damage to mendak. No damage to any part of the keris.

The profession involved is the profession of the m'ranggi, and this has had a long and continuous history in Jawa.

I would most sincerely suggest that the people who currently subscribe to the boiling water philosophy would be doing themselves and their clients a very great service by seeking out some instruction from true professionals in this field of keris restoration.

BigG

3rd September 2010, 09:58 AM

Thank you for the reiteration, yet again, of the vast experience that you have in the field. I accept that not many amongst us here can hope to claim to have the vastness of experience that you do. However mr Maisey, your views, perspective and practices on the matter and its origins are just one of many. The context that you practice and espouse those views is yet again different from our own.

That the views and underlying basis for those views do not match yours is, whether you accept it or not, a matter of fact. That you would denigrate them because it doesnt quite fit in into your own comfort level saddens me. but I do hope that you would be more mindful of using the terms that you have in refering to us in the way that you have.

In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed. Not everyone do this, but many do.

There is a rich seam of untapped knowledge in terms of practices that are based on matters of practicality and customs amongs the collectors here that are unknown by many forumers. Many are not motivated to share but some are... What penangsang have done in making us aware of one of the practicalities of the collectors here should be applauded. It may not to the liking and may astound many, but it was shared in the spirit of openness. It is sad that his views have been treated in the way that it has been.

Jussi M.

3rd September 2010, 11:18 AM

Greetings,

Sorry to jump in like this but I feel compelled to and in the following I´ll explain why.

In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed. Not everyone do this, but many do.

There is a rich seam of untapped knowledge in terms of practices that are based on matters of practicality and customs amongs the collectors here that are unknown by many forumers. Many are not motivated to share but some are... What penangsang have done in making us aware of one of the practicalities of the collectors here should be applauded. It may not to the liking and may astound many, but it was shared in the spirit of openness.
Yes, it is true that there is variance to methods used to maintain and restore a keris and it´s dress within different areas and groups of people associated with the keris. That is OK, each to his own, and all that. Yes, it is wonderful that knowledge is shared – is that not the very reason for the existence of this forum? Yes, it is true that - and I quote - "In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed." That is true also BUT, and this is a big but, all here do not share this view. In fact to many - myself included - the dress is also of utmost importance, sometimes even more so than the actual blade itself regardless of how heretic that may appear to others.

Most people here like myself are ignorant and participate in order to learn - to ask those with more experience what and what not to do in order to not mess things up. Think about the possible consequences that may result if someone ignorant who has bought a keris for it´s dress decides to clean and re-stain it´s blade and decides to follow PenangsangII´s advise:

(emphasis added)
to play it safe, in order to remove the hilt that is attached to the pesi using damar/jabung etc, just soak the entire hilt in boiled water.... in less than 3 minutes, normally the hilt can easily be removed.

And to clean the blade safely, just soak it in water (best is pure water coming down from waterfall or spring water...) mix with fresh pineapple cubes (pineapple skin is better) and mengkudu (Morinda Citrifolia). This is traditional method practised by Javanese living in Malaysia.
It is clear that the above statement is made with the best of intentions but it stems from a frame in which dress is seen as something disposable. Yet for many collectors dress matters. Thus it is of utmost importance to address the pros and cons when describing these things here as people´s values differ. For someone like me thus the proposed method is not safe but a very likely guarantee to end up in the most saddest of conditions.

One should always remember the audience one is addressing. Little knowledge is dangerous if it is not understood where it stems from and what it´s implications are. Reflected against this background I feel that Mr. Maisey´s commentary on this boiling the hilt-practice within the frame of this international collectors forum was to a point if - pun intended - admittedly a bit pointy. For me personally the dress with all it´s components parts are alike culturally and artistically appreciable as is the actual blade itself. Other peoples mileage may – and does – vary, and that is why these "other people" should always be kept in mind when addressing procedures such as the proposed method of removing the hilt on an international forum such as this.

Thanks,

J.

A. G. Maisey

3rd September 2010, 12:18 PM

Big G, I have read and understood this most recent post of yours, the one prior to it, and the post of Penangsang.

The comments I have made to date I personally consider to be very restrained,and in no way criticism of an unfair nature, which of course is the meaning of "denigrate". In light of the recommendations made, even though made in good faith, I consider that I have been overly polite and quite delicate in my comments.

Most certainly I have criticised the methods which are apparently employed in Singapore and Malaysia, by those entrusted with the preservation of the creations of their ancestors. However, this criticism is no way unfair. The methods described by Penangsang, and supported by yourself are methods which will cause damage, they are not methods which can be used in full assurance that no damage will result to a hilt.

Perhaps sometimes immersion in boiling water will assist in freeing a hilt from a pesi, but at what cost?

Penangsang has mentioned that he has used boiling water a number of times without damage to the hilt. I would suggest two things, firstly he has been lucky, and secondly that if he followed exactly the process he advised in his post, it is probable that the hilt could have been removed without the application of any kind of heat, but just by the application of a little professional skill.

Not only can these methods not be relied upon not to damage a hilt, but they can most certainly be relied upon to create an increased level of risk of breakage of the pesi where that pesi is heavily rusted and is being retained in the hilt by rust.This risk will be multiplied where the hilt is of ivory, bone or horn. rather than wood. Then of course, we have the tayuman situation, and old tayuman hilts are not low cost disposables.

The judicious use of heat will loosen any pesi , whether it has been retained by rust, jabung or anything else.

Boiling water will not be effective in all cases, but can be relied upon to raise the level of risk of a broken pesi, as well as a split hilt.

If one has no concern as to whether the hilt is damaged, and the pesi is broken, by all means immerse the hilt in boiling water.

However, if one wishes to free the hilt without breaking the pesi and with no damage to the hilt, then one should learn how to use heat to do this.

I most certainly accept that the methods I have recommended are not the only methods, however, they are methods used in Central Jawa by people with a great deal more experience than I have, in some cases by people who can count generations of their forebears as mranggis before them.The methods I have recommended are well tested, and they do work, not only that, but used correctly they do not ever result in damage to any part of the keris.

What I have stated here is not opinion.

It is demonstrable fact.

BigG

3rd September 2010, 02:51 PM

Firstly let me state that I agree that the dress of the keris is of equal importance to the blade of the keris. I have personally never used the boiling method and have been careful to inform ay craftsmen who would restore pieces that I own to not employ this method. I personally value the asthetics of the dress as much as I do the blade. The pcs that I have shared wth here and would share more in the future, wld attest to this... But what I am stating here is the fact, that this method is employed by many, not all... but many as a means of removing a hilt. And I have given the forumers the rationale of why this method is being employed by many in this particular region...

And that rationale in my opinion is bcos of the inordinate importance that is given by them to the blade as well as the peksi as oppose to the dress, especially the hilt. The other rationale to this is because of the relative ease in which a hilt can be replace here... new or antique... I have endeavoured to inform the forumers here, newbies & veterans alike that there is an alternative but it is chosen as a result of the specific context of the situation found here. That this method is found to be shocking or unacceptable should not detract from the fact that it exist and is being employed. I accept that it is unacceptable to many in the forum... It is also something that would not be resorted to by many here, including myself... but that it exist, and is considered valid by peope for the reasons that I have mentioned should also be made known.

Be critical of this method if you feel needful to by all means... Explain the contextual rationale behind it to make the forumers understand why this may not be something that they should consider, by all means... but surely by any standard of decorum... labelling a member's effort at disclosing what he applies and intend to share in good faith as an act of barbarism & idiocy would be far from what wld be considered as restrained. We may disagree about what is being said, we should endeavour to tamper its impact and we should if we believe that we know better... but we should not maligned these views the way that it has been done here...

As we Malays would say it;
"Orang berbudi kita berbahasa"...
As they are civil so are we courteous. ..

Lets reciprocate ideas and views sounded off in good faith in the manner that it deserves...

David

3rd September 2010, 04:10 PM

Gentlemen, please allow me to state my views here.
We have here a new collector seeking advice on methods of cleaning and restoration. I think that it is important that we consider when we give advise in such a case that the new and relatively uninformed collector may well try a method when it is suggested to him. I personally would feel remiss if i did not stand up and yell loudly from the hilltop if i were to see someone suggest a methodology which i felt could be dangerous or damaging to any part of a keris. I think that for the most part we all consider the blade to take a prime position of importance when we deal with the keris. However, i also believe that the vast majority of collectors on this forum are also interested in preserving dress, especially antique dress, and most particularly well crafted dress whenever possible. I am also not completely convinced that it is always the Malay's notion that the dress is unimportant compared to the blade. I can't, for instance, see any of our Malay collectors using this boiling water method on their favorite antique keris tajong. Neither am i convinced that well carved antique tajong hilt are at all easy to replace, even for those who live in the region and i might be wrong, but whenever i have seen tajong presented the emphasis of importance always seems to be on the dress, not the blade.
I don't think that anyone is dismissing the actuality of this practice of boiling hilts as one that it commonly done. We are simply remarking on the fact that commonly done or not, it is not a good idea. To present such a method to an impressionable new collect is also not a good idea, especially when methods have already been presented that have been proven to work and not damage any part of the keris.
I am not sure that i would use the words that Mr. Maisey has in describing this practice, however, i would not argue with his viewpoint either. Many things throughout history have been accepted by certain facet of society, but that did not make them necessarily good ideas. If you would allow an admittedly extreme example, it was once considered necessary,right and proper for a woman to throw herself (or be thrown) upon her husbands funeral pyre (sati) in Hindu culture. That it was condoned, that it was a fact, didn't make it a good idea.
I suggest that we proceed with caution here in this discussion. I do not believe it is anyone's intention to dismiss or insult the practices of any person or group of people here so i trust that we can all remain civil and calm. I see nothing wrong with discussing different ideas and method used for anything keris related on this forum, but i also think that it is most important that we make clear the possible dangers that some of these methods might hold, especially for impressionable new collectors seeking the best and lest invasive methods of restoration. Not to do so would be irresponsible :)

A. G. Maisey

3rd September 2010, 04:21 PM

Big G, I thank you for your further explanation.

The situation as it applies in Singapore and Malaysia is now much more clear to me. Perhaps if something like this had been written initially you may have been able to avoid taking umbrage at my most civil and restrained comments.

My comments were most certainly critical, and were intended to be.

To offer advice such this to people with little experience or knowledge could result in severe loss for such people.Apparently you concur with this point of view, as you now advise us that you do not subscribe to the boiling water philosophy.

May I suggest that you swallow your bile and re-read my post that has seemingly caused you such offence?

To assist you in this I quote here the words to which you seem to object:-

In my most humble opinion the practice here related of immersing a complete hilt into boiling water in order to remove it from a blade is most certainly barbaric and verges upon idiocy.

Please take note:-

I have given my opinion that the act of immersing a hilt into boiling water is an act that I consider to be barbaric and verging upon idiocy.

I have not said that Penangsang's effort at relating this act was one of barbarism and near idiocy; in fact, I offer Penangsang my sincere thanks for providing me with this information, as it permits me to form an opinion of the level of professionalism that is to be found in respect of keris restoration in Singapore and Malaysia.

However, although I appreciate this invaluable gain in knowledge, I repeat that to offer such advice to the inexperienced is more than a little irresponsible.

There is a very great difference between describing an act as barbaric and verging upon idiocy, and describing the recounting of that act as barbaric and verging upon idiocy.

I'm sure that when you have reread and understood what I have written you will be able to appreciate this difference.

Now, to address your little gem of wisdom, which seems to imply that I may have been discourteous.

Big G, I always endeavor to be as polite as is possible when I write in this forum. In this present exchange I have not varied from this approach. I have restrained myself from saying what I would like to say about this boiling water business, and I have directed my very restrained criticism at the act itself. My remarks in respect of those who engage in this practice have been limited to offering some advice, which, as with all advice, they are free to accept or reject as they see fit:-

I would most sincerely suggest that the people who currently subscribe to the boiling water philosophy would be doing themselves and their clients a very great service by seeking out some instruction from true professionals in this field of keris restoration.

I most earnestly request that you read only the words I have written, rather than to imagine that which I have not written.

In order to demonstrate that I bear you no ill will because of your misrepresentation of my comments, I will terminate my involvement in this exchange at this point. Should you have anything to add, please do so in confidence that I will not respond to any further of your posts in this matter.

BigG

3rd September 2010, 05:43 PM

Mr Maisey... I fully understand what it is that you had said and the intended manner of its saying...

As a Malay would put it, I truly understand what has been written "yang tersurat" and what is implied behind it "yang tersirat". I end this exchange with you with a gift of a Pantun (Traditional Malay quatrain)...

Tumbuh di rimba si daun palas
Gugur di hutan berbelas-belas
Kata hamba kata beralas
Kata tuan duri berhias

By the woods the leaves a-twining
Green grown their tendrils a-winding
My words... are words a-soothing
Thy own.. barbed and wounding

Rgds..

Alam Shah

3rd September 2010, 06:13 PM

Dear friends, I live in Singapore and have never used the boiling water treatment. Most of my fellow collectors here, do not subscribe to this treatment, as well, although we are aware of it. :)

Personally, I value the few old hilts that I have and would prefer to use other techniques of hilt removal to prevent damage to them. Hilts are easily replaced but in the olden days, they are highly prized item, normally made of selected quality materials, with certain attributes to them. From a cultural aspect, it does represents something that if understood, one would value it.

Currently I do have a piece which I have difficulty removing. A Sumatran keris (http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p56026159.html), with what I believe to be a rhino hilt. Any suggestions on what course of action I should take?

David

3rd September 2010, 07:42 PM

Shahrial, thank you for providing different perspective from the Singapore keris community.
I nice and unusual hilt you have there. I certainly don't think you would want to destroy it for the sake of the blade. ;)
I presume you have already tried applying heat to the blade as has been described in this thread? I know sometimes it takes much persistence an repetition.

Rick

3rd September 2010, 08:18 PM

The heat also needs some time to penetrate up the pesi and stay there; especially if you are trying to melt/soften a substance . :)

Yes, I'd say that's Rhino .

A. G. Maisey

4th September 2010, 01:00 AM

Thank you Shahrial for your further clarification of the place that the technique of boiling a hilt free of the pesi occupies in your part of the world. I can now understand that this is far from being a generally utilised practice, and it seems that perhaps it may be used by only a very few people. It is comforting to know that the practice is not as widespread as it initially appeared to be.

This keris that you have shown a photo of will very likely take an extended period of time before it gives up its hilt. I have encountered several cases where I have needed to heat and reheat over a long time before the hilt finally came free. In all cases the hilt materials were other than wood; one was ivory, a couple were horn, one was probably rhino horn, and one was very similar to the hilt on your keris.

In a couple of these instances, when the hilt finally did come free the pesi was only about as thick as a darning needle, inside the hole in the hilt there were layers of rust. When a pesi is as badly rusted as these were it is very easy to break , so you need to proceed very carefully and do not overdo the twisting action, rather apply very little twisting force, and try to pull the hilt free by gripping the blade with your left hand and pushing your thumbs against one another.

In other instances I have found that perhaps half the length of the pesi has turned completely into rust.

I would suggest that you heat the sorsoran, combined with gentle twisting and pulling action, every day or so, over an extended period of time. Be patient with it, it doesn't matter if it takes several months before it comes free, but the repeated heating and cooling with loosen any bond over time. If you grip the blade about halfway down, and apply heat to the sorsoran, when the blade gets too hot to hold, that's the time when you stop, you set it aside until it cools a little and then repeat, probably about 15 or 20 minutes at a time is sufficient to work at it. Then come back to it again the following day.

The silver (?) cover on the gonjo should not be a problem, but of course you will ensure that no direct heat is applied to it.

kai

4th September 2010, 01:13 AM

Hello Shahrial,

Currently I do have a piece which I have difficulty removing. A Sumatran keris (http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p56026159.html), with what I believe to be a rhino hilt. Any suggestions on what course of action I should take?
Yes, most definitely: Please send it over to me.... :o :rolleyes:

How many times (and how long) have you tried the heating cycle?

Regards,
Kai

kai

4th September 2010, 01:27 AM

Alan beat me to it. The blade looks very healthy and I do hope that the pesi is in a good condition but playing it safe it certainly the way to go.

When a pesi is as badly rusted as these were it is very easy to break , so you need to proceed very carefully and do not overdo the twisting action, rather apply very little twisting force, and try to pull the hilt free by gripping the blade with your left hand and pushing your thumbs against one another.
Just to emphasize: Utilizing the thumbs gives much better control than pulling with the arms.

If you grip the blade about halfway down, and apply heat to the sorsoran, when the blade gets too hot to hold, that's the time when you stop, you set it aside until it cools a little and then repeat, probably about 15 or 20 minutes at a time is sufficient to work at it. Then come back to it again the following day.

The silver (?) cover on the gonjo should not be a problem, but of course you will ensure that no direct heat is applied to it.
I'd also prefer to shield the hulu from radiating heat by holding it with a padded glove (kitchen ware).

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey

4th September 2010, 01:41 AM

Kai, I usually hold the hilt in my hand, this way you can feel how hot its getting. If you use a candle or a small kerosene lamp there is in fact very little radiated heat. I'm not as cautious as I advise others to be, I use a propane torch held in a vice, and pass the blade through the flame, even doing it this way and holding the hilt in my bare hand, there is very little radiated heat. I don't like to isolate myself from the hilt and the blade by using gloves, if you can feel them you know exactly how much heat is going into the keris, and where it is going.

Alam Shah

4th September 2010, 11:59 AM

I presume you have already tried applying heat to the blade as has been described in this thread? I know sometimes it takes much persistence an repetition.Believe me, I've tried.. I usually use the candle technique, safest method yet.. then I'll put it in between a phone book, and gently try to twist the hilt.. This is my hardest hilt yet.. :( :)

A. G. Maisey

4th September 2010, 12:40 PM

Alam Shah, going back a few years I had a pedang that took me about a year to get the hilt off.

I bought it in Solo, and I wanted to get it stained there before I brought it home. I worked on it for the time I was there, probably about a month, and it did not shift even a little bit. I kept working on it when I got home, not every day, but whenever I had time and remembered.

It was a pedang, so it had a square section tang, not a round tang, that meant it could only be very slightly worked side to side while it was being pulled.

It took me months and months to get it free, and when it finally did come out of the hilt, at least half the tang was left in the hilt in the form of rust.

In my experience, the heating/cooling treatment will always free a tang, but it takes time. You just keep working at it and don't lose patience.

I once saw Pak Parman work on a hilt every single day for 6 weeks, using a candle for heat, at the end of the six weeks it was just beginning to move.

Alam Shah

4th September 2010, 12:42 PM

The heat also needs some time to penetrate up the pesi and stay there; especially if you are trying to melt/soften a substance . :)

Yes, I'd say that's Rhino .Thanks, point noted. It took me a while to identify it as rhino.. and it takes ages to convince friends.. When Michael Marlow (VVV), was in Singapore, we met at MAG, Adni was also skeptical but Kai Wee was somewhat convinced.. ;)

Alam Shah

4th September 2010, 01:23 PM

.. I would suggest that you heat the sorsoran, combined with gentle twisting and pulling action, every day or so, over an extended period of time. Be patient with it, it doesn't matter if it takes several months before it comes free, but the repeated heating and cooling with loosen any bond over time. If you grip the blade about halfway down, and apply heat to the sorsoran, when the blade gets too hot to hold, that's the time when you stop, you set it aside until it cools a little and then repeat, probably about 15 or 20 minutes at a time is sufficient to work at it. Then come back to it again the following day.Hi Alan,
Thank you for the detailed advice.. I'll proceed as suggested.. :)
Sometimes, half the fun is trying to do thing ourselves. I've a friend whom while trying to remove an old bugis hilt, broke the pesi into 3 parts.. with only half an inch left. Although it can get fixed.. the damage is done.

Alam Shah

4th September 2010, 01:30 PM

Hello Shahrial,

Yes, most definitely: Please send it over to me.... :o :rolleyes:

How many times (and how long) have you tried the heating cycle?

Regards,
KaiYeah Kai, as far as I can remember, you already have this blade form.. :D I've tried at least 10 times, over a period of one year.. I've done as what Alan explained.. with one hand holding the blade to feel if it's too hot.. sometimes I use a piece of cloth, so that I can heat the blade a little hotter.. normally, 3 cycles..

Alam Shah

4th September 2010, 04:42 PM

Alam Shah, going back a few years I had a pedang that took me about a year to get the hilt off.
..

It took me months and months to get it free, and when it finally did come out of the hilt, at least half the tang was left in the hilt in the form of rust.

In my experience, the heating/cooling treatment will always free a tang, but it takes time. You just keep working at it and don't lose patience...
So, I reckon it's normal then. Since I'm the current custodian, I'll normally take my time working on it.. Sometimes giving it some thought, to conserve or restore..

A. G. Maisey

4th September 2010, 09:09 PM

That can often be the question, Alam Shah:- conserve or restore?

Sometimes it may be more wise to leave the problem for somebody else to fix in another 50 years or so.

Regarding your friend's pesi that broke. It is entirely possible that it had rusted through in any case. If you could see the white of un-rusted steel in the separation, OK, it broke. But if you could not, it was possibly rusted through.

As long as there is some part of the pesi left it is easy to repair, and the shortened or more slender pesi is only evidence of age.This is a standard, expected part of maintenance in Jawa.

Even when the pesi is completely broken off and no part of it is left, it can be repaired, although at that point the blade has lost its integrity.

kai

5th September 2010, 03:01 AM

Hello Shahrial,

Yeah Kai, as far as I can remember, you already have this blade form.. :D
That's comparing a noble breed with a mundane work horse... ;) (in any case that's the beauty of handmade pieces - you can always find an excuse why you have to add something to any given collection... :p )

I'd also try to hold the temperature for a slightly longer time in this case (expecting the pesi to be glued with damar). BTW, any signs of rust build-up where the pesi enters the hilt if you can get a peek?

Regards,
Kai

kai

5th September 2010, 03:04 AM

Hello Shahrial,

Thanks, point noted. It took me a while to identify it as rhino.. and it takes ages to convince friends.. When Michael Marlow (VVV), was in Singapore, we met at MAG, Adni was also skeptical but Kai Wee was somewhat convinced.. ;)
I'm certainly with you. Actually your pics are among the most convincing I have seen so far for SEA hilts claimed to be rhino horn - the diagnostic structure can well be seen at the "head/face" (next time turn the hilt or the digicam to avoid reflections of the flash at the pertinent area). Needless to say, most "suspect" hilts prove to be (often albino) water buffalo horn upon microscopic examination...

Regards,
Kai

imas560

5th September 2010, 07:08 AM

Hello all,
Today being Father's Day in N.Z. I was given a free allotment in the space time continuum to "go play with your blades". So have embarked on step 1 of cleaning up my newly acquired keris. I have confirmed the sororan area from the details picture at Paul's Keris page.
http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/details.jpg
The hilt is on very tight (no movement).
I setup with my candle and keris. I wrapped the handle with a bit of towel rag just in case flame/heat got too close as this is my first time.
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/kerishiltremoval002.jpg
I got the candle going and then played the flame along the sororan area.
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/kerishiltremoval003.jpg
I did encounter a slight problem, there were a couple of spots on the blade (nearer to the handle) where the flame was drawn to the blade and I had to move the blade away quickly.
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/kerishiltremoval006.jpg
I applied the candle heat until the blade got warm where I was holding it. The blade near the handle did get hotter than a warm to the touch level. I let it cool and then re-applied heat but not as long as the first attempt.
Two attempts was enough for today.
The handle had slightly freed up in a sideways direction but no perceptible movement in a direction away from the blade.

Alam Shah

5th September 2010, 12:54 PM

Good effort imas560.. :) sometimes I use kitchen aluminium foil on the hilt.. better than a piece of cloth, which is a fire hazard, imho.. ;)

A. G. Maisey

5th September 2010, 02:17 PM

I suggest that you grip the blade with your bare hand about halfway along its length.

I also suggest that you lose the cloth , it is entirely, absolutely, 100% not necessary, and is as Alam Shah says, a fire risk.

Grip the hilt with your bare hand; the hilt does not need any protection from anything, because the flame is not going to go anywhere near it, mainly because you are not going to burn your hand, are you?

Play the candle flame over the entire sorsoran area and alternate the sides of the blade that you heat.

You will feel the hilt becoming a little warm, and you will feel the blade becoming quite warm; when the blade is uncomfortable to hold in your bare hand, stop heating it.

The heat in the blade will continue to travel up the pesi.

Using a piece of old rag so that you can grip the blade without burning your hand or cutting it, grip the heated area firmly and gently try twisting the hilt, do not force it; as you twist you also need to exert a gentle force to pull it away from the blade, if you press your two thumbs together you can better control this force.

It only takes a few minutes for the blade to get too hot to hold, and it only takes a few more minutes for it to cool down, so you can repeat this procedure a few times.

If you don't move it during the first day's session, or second day's session, you just keep on trying until you do.

This is not a real old keris, and you should not have too much difficulty with it.

PenangsangII

6th September 2010, 03:16 AM

Dear All,

i was away during the weekend, so was unable to reply a few entries "condemning" my favored method in removing stuck up keris hilts.

Like BigG said earlier, soaking in boiled water is the method prescribed in Malaysian keris community (i believe including Singapore). I'm surprised that Alam Shah didnt know about it, and only practised the so-called "professional" method, i.e heating method.

I dont know what "professional" really means here, but I guess it must have come from the current era mranggis and keris collectors. But boiling method is prescribed by the elders in Malaysian keris community. Malaysian keris culture has not evolve much since Majapahit/Malaka era, compare to Indonesian counterparts esp in Jawa. You can assume whatever I wanted to tell here.

its fine if anyone dosnt agree with the boiling method, but denigrating the practice of certain respected people in the keris community as "excessive" or "close to idiocy" is totally uncalled for.... totally out of the way of the keris... and by the person/s who doesnt/dont know the philosophy of the keris....

Its also fine if anyone treats keris as mere collection, but to me it much more. Its a way of life. and that's a very big difference.

Just like BigG had said earlier, the blade is EVERYTHING... and by putting the blade into "uncomfortable" situation, i.e. direct contact to flame, I can also call this practice "close to idiocy"... in the perspective of Malaysian keris community............ see, its actually from what perspective we look into things....

If heating method is a demonstrable fact, so is boiling method. I would like to ask, the so-called professional or very senior and knowledgable collectors ( i mean collectors... not a users...), have you tried using boiling method before calling it as unfrenly to keris care taking? I tried both ways before, that is why I stand by what I said earlier.

Rick

6th September 2010, 03:43 AM

Very good then; we have different methods of removal; one may pick the method one likes .

Yes ? :)

There are many ways to skin a cat ; no ?

We'll move on now ....

A. G. Maisey

6th September 2010, 04:21 AM

I thank you most sincerely for your further post , Penangsang.

I have learnt much from that which you have written.

I hope you will continue to provide such revealing information.

David

6th September 2010, 06:09 AM

As Rick has pointed out, both these methods have been rather fully described and people (both collectors and "users" of keris) can now make an intelligent decision as to which method they believe will do the least possible damage to their keris. Personally i have tried and been fully successful with the heating method, but i have never tried the boiling water method. However, it is not necessary for me to whack my finger with a hammer to know that it will hurt and probably make my finger bleed.
It confuses me a bit that Penangang would consider a small candle flame on a blade an "uncomfortable situation" considering that the blade is born out of a forge fire much hotter than that. Of course, i am not a professional or even a very knowledgeable collector, but i actually do indeed use keris in my daily ritual practice. So i do not treat my keris as a "mere collection" either.
Penangang, you should also read Shahrial's post more carefully. He did not say that he was unaware of the boiling method. He said that indeed he was, but that he didn't use it himself and added that "Most of my fellow collectors here, do not subscribe to this treatment, as well, although we are aware of it".

PenangsangII

6th September 2010, 07:37 AM

Thanks David for your further comments....

The "digdaya" or yoni of the keris is imbued after the completion of the keris, although the process may take as early as the empu doing his tapa brata before he actually hold his hammer..... imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner. Most of us have the "keris tindih" to defuse this situation, but how about new collectors or even senior collectors who dont have in their possession the "ampuh" keris tindih or "pelapik". I tried to refrain discussing this subject earlier in the forum, as many forumers here dont believe in such a thing.

And I dont understand why do you have to speak up for Shahrial... yes I do understand what he was saying.... But to claim that one DID hear or know about "boiling method" than claimed DIDNOT know anybody who did it (whilst BigG rightfully wrote its generally acceptable in Malaysia & S'pore) is preposterous. Even when the hilt removal is handled by "tukang sarung" in the Peninsular, believe you me, big chances are, they would use the boiling method. I am not sure whether Shahrial is speaking on behalf of all collectors in S'pore or not, but the fact BigG mentioned its a normal practice in Singapore, reaffirms my belief it is a normal method in the Peninsular (Malaysia & Singapore)

In short, my advise on the hilt removal method is out of concern for the blade itself (after the heat exposure you'll have to clean the carbon smut on the blade surface, sometime painstakingly as i have learned before), and because of my concern to the yoni. There is no way my intention is to mislead fellow forumers, or cause unnecessary debate of wrong or right. Both can be wrong, and both can be right.

Jussi M.

6th September 2010, 10:20 AM

Popcorn, anyone?
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/images/2008/02/24/popcorn_2.gif

A. G. Maisey

6th September 2010, 03:02 PM

Thank you again Penangsang for providing such a wonderful post for us.

I had determined that I was not going to involve myself any further in these exchanges, principally because of what I consider to be an insensitive approach to matters that really have no place in a public online Forum.However, I feel that Penangsang's most recent post does need to be addressed in order to clarify several matters for those amongst us who may not be quite so advanced in the spiritual aspects of the keris as Penangsang apparently considers himself to be.

For those of you who may be silently recoiling from the possibility that I intend to discuss the concept of yoni openly, please relax. I do not intend to open this matter to discussion, but merely to provide an understanding of the area into which we have ventured.

Penangsang has used two words that we usually only hear in a face to face situation where discussion is between close friends:- yoni, and digdaya.

Both of these words are Javanese. In this context the meaning of yoni refers to something having a magical power. The meaning of digdaya is for something to be invulnerable because of magical or supernatural power.

These words do not have the same meaning. In fact, they do not even have a similar meaning.

The power of yoni is transferable when the keris is correctly matched to its custodian, however digdaya is invulnerability that is possessed by virtue of magical or supernatural power. It may be that the tuah that has been generated by the yoni is a tuah that is capable of providing invulnerability, but very often the tuah of a keris has absolutely nothing at all to do with invulnerability, it could be concerned with profit in business, or ease of social relationships, or facility in attracting women, or any one of many other fortuitous powers.

The concept of yoni refers to an element, or factor that is the essence linking the maker of a keris with the tuah of a keris.Yoni is not a spirit nor a djin nor an identifiable thing, it is a power, or a mysterious force that fixes the tuah.

The tuah is essentially a talismanic power, and it cannot exist unless the custodian of the keris has belief that it does exist.Tuah is always a good and a positive force, but it can only exist where the keris is correctly matched to the custodian.

The strength of the yoni is linked in turn to the devoutness and the mystical knowledge of maker of the keris. Since such knowledge can only be possessed by an Mpu, this dictates that any keris which may be considered to possess yoni must be the product of an Mpu.

This theory, or hypothesis is a relatively recent one that has been popularised by an ahli keris from Solo, B.P.H. Sumodiningrat, a noble from the Karaton Surakarta.

Inherrent in this theory there is no suggestion that the tuah of a keris is directly linked to God, however there is the belief that by virtue of his devoutness and his fasting and meditation, the Mpu draws close to God.

The belief in the yoni of a keris is an element of the Javanese belief system that surrounds the keris and has its roots in Kejawen and the revival of Javanese culture which took place during the Kartosuro period. It is an attractive theory to those who are followers of Sufic mysticism, and by virtue of this the belief in the yoni theory has spread widely throughout keris bearing cultures in a very short period of time.

When we consider whether or not a keris may possess yoni there is one over-riding requirement that must be fulfilled before all others:- the keris must be the product of an Mpu. In other words the physical quality of the keris must be consistent with the product of an Mpu.

This is probably about as far as I am prepared to go in this matter.

As I have already commented, discussion of yoni is a very sensitive subject that should only be carried out in private in a face to face situation, and between trusted friends with similar levels of knowledge. It is not a subject for open or public discussion and must not be openly discussed with those who are not yet sufficiently mature to understand the implications.

What I have written above is what I have been taught. It may vary from the beliefs held by others, however, my teachers were located in Solo, and were of the same social group as the man who caused the concept of yoni to become popular.

David

6th September 2010, 05:20 PM

Thank you Penang for bringing the subject of yoni to the forefront, even though i do fully understand and agree with Mr. Maisey that such discussions can only go so far in an open forum such as this. I have no concerns about the general discussion of spiritual matters in regards to keris however, even if some of our membership may not believe in these aspects, since it is in my mind intrinsic to the subject of the keris itself. I would also like to thank Mr. Maisey for his detailed, yet restained, paragraphs on the subject of yoni and digdaya. Very informative without going "too far" i think. ;) :)
And I dont understand why do you have to speak up for Shahrial... yes I do understand what he was saying.... But to claim that one DID hear or know about "boiling method" than claimed DIDNOT know anybody who did it (whilst BigG rightfully wrote its generally acceptable in Malaysia & S'pore) is preposterous.
Now, in regards to what you have written above, the obvious answer is because even after a second reading (i can only assume that you read Shahrial's remarks again when i pointed you to them) you still don't seem to have fully understood them. Please read them one more time since he did NOT claim that he didn't know anybody who uses the boiling method. What he DID write was that MOST of his fellow collectors do not use this method. This very clearly implies that SOME of them, how ever few, indeed DO use that method. I am making a special point of this only because i believe it is absolutely imperative that we ALL carefully read the comments of our fellow members before we respond to them, especially if we are to call those comments "preposterous". That is just common respect.

Henk

6th September 2010, 08:30 PM

David

6th September 2010, 11:21 PM

It should also be pointed out that this keris of Imas is almost certainly not an mpu made blade and therefore has no yoni to be concerned with. I dare say the the vast majority of keris in our collections also are not mpu made.
I also agree with Henk that immersing the hilt in boiling water subjects the blade to a very similar discomfort that applying a candle flame to it will. Seems 6 of one and half a dozen of another as far as the blade is concerned. :shrug:

A. G. Maisey

6th September 2010, 11:51 PM

There is probably one other thing that I should mention while I'm on this subject, and that is the idea of "isi".

The word isi in Javanese means contents, or insides, or to be filled with. Its a pretty useful word, and it is not restricted to keris usage. For instance , if you're using the toilet, and somebody tries to open the door, you just yell "ISI!" and they go away.

Isi is not a mystical word.

But when we use it in reference to a keris it does refer to a mystical element. An element that beginners and children often confuse with the concept of tuah.This is understandable, because both tuah and isi are ideas about a mystical force within the keris.

Unlike tuah, isi can exist in any keris. It does not come from the Mpu, as tuah does. It might be inherent in the iron before the keris is even made, it might be due to an occurrence during forging, it might be caused by some event during its life, it might be purposely introduced by magical practice. Isi can enter a keris from a multitude of sources.

Again, unlike tuah, it is not always a positive power, but can also be negative, and unlike tuah it is not selective in whom it affects.

Isi is a universal force that in fact has no form, but it usually assumes the form of something either terrible or good, to permit it to be perceived by a person.

However, even if a keris does have isi, no matter how powerful that isi may be, it will not necessarily affect everybody. If a person has sufficient spiritual or mystical strength of the right type, isi will not affect that person. Isi should never have any effect upon an Mpu, a pandai keris, a mranggi, or a devout person. Isi can affect a person who is weak, or who is incomplete. Such a person can sometimes gain the strength to resist isi by meditation, fasting, and prayer.

So, here we have the difference between the two mystical elements that can exist in a keris.

There is the tuah, that is purposely brought into the blade by the Mpu who made it, and the tuah is fixed in place by the power of the yoni.

Then there is the isi, which is not brought into the blade by the Mpu, and is not fixed in place by the yoni.

The tuah is invariably positive, but requires the keris to be matched to the right custodian, and that custodian must believe that the tuah is present and active on his behalf.

The isi is a natural, or an accidental or an intentional placement of a mystical power into the keris.

The isi is not necessarily a positive force, but can also be distinctly evil, it is not selective in its effects but can affect anybody lacking the spiritual power to resist it.

Tuah can exist in any keris that has been made correctly to incorporate this talismanic power, however the yoni can only exist in a keris that has been made by an Mpu to contain tuah, and the power of this tuah is fixed by the yoni.

Isi can exist in any keris.

Kai, in light of the above, I feel that perhaps you may already have the answer to your question, however, if it is not yet clear, please let me proceed.

The keris as a whole is a personality. It may or may not contain tuah, and it may or may not contain isi. But the keris is only a personality if it is believed to be so by the custodian.

If the custodian is correctly matched to the keris, and believes that the tuah is active on his behalf, every action he takes involving that keris will be a positive action from the perspective of the keris, and the tuah will remain with the keris and with the custodian of the keris as long as it is believed in.

However, isi is not so controllable, nor predictable. Isi may or may not like the heat of a candle flame. But isi may or may not like a million other things as well, and there is no way to know what that isi may find objectionable or pleasant except by the practice of tayuh, or mystical divination, usually through dreaming.

However, if we disturb the isi, we may find out too late that something we did caused that isi to become a little uncomfortable.Then we may have to pay.

In the whole of this element of the belief system there is also the human element.

If the custodian of the keris believes in tuah it is real, but selective.

If the custodian of the keris believes in isi, it is real, but non-selective.

Where the custodian of a keris has some doubt about his spiritual ability to resist the force of a possible isi, then he is well advised to entrust any work to be done on his keris to a person who does possess this spiritual ability. This is the role of the mranggi.

All of the above is as I have been taught, and is only a repetition of those teachings.

Nothing here necessarily represents my personal opinions.

Rick

7th September 2010, 01:52 AM

That is interesting, especially concerning our conversations about the weather here of late, Alan .

PenangsangII

7th September 2010, 02:44 AM

Thank you Alan, for giving us a view in the spirit world of keris. The way you explained it, makes it for me, and i hope other forum members, very understandable. Talking about this subject should be face tot face indeed and is very personal. But we all know about the existing of this subject and the spirit world of keris.

Forgive my ingnorance and i have no intention to offend anybody, but, as Penangsang stated,
imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner.
Is putting a beloved one in boiling water less cruel? I'm sure when i do that, he or she won't be smiling to me either.

And to talk about the material, boiling water will give more damage to the hilt.
I used the method once on a keris given to me by a friend. A madura keris with a wooden Solo ukiran, glued to the pesi. I wanted to exchange the wooden Solo ukiran for an old bone Madura ukiran, so i used boiling water.
The Solo ukiran became worthless. The wood cracked and the lacquer became grey and got loose from the wood. A waste of a re-usable Solo ukiran. Here in Europe replacing a keris dress is very hard. That's, I think, the most important reason we prefer to preserve and restore the dress of a keris.

Henk,

It is the Jejeran that is exposed to the boiled water. Compare that with direct flame to the blade????

and Alan is right, the discussion about digdaya or yoni or anything about keris spiritualism should be done in personal manner. Or if anyone wish to continue the discussion, please feel free to create another thread. I agree to to most of Alan posts re mysticism, the meaning of yoni, but beg to differ about digdaya. I will not continue the discussion here, nor open another thread on keris spiritualism, but I promise whenever possible I will give my comments accordingly if anyone starts the thread.

Thank you, it has been enlightening experience here in this thread.

David

7th September 2010, 03:16 AM

Thank you Alan for clearing up this terminology in a clear and concise manner. This has been a very informative thread indeed. :)

PenangsangII

7th September 2010, 03:16 AM

and yes, Alan's last post prettily summed up everything about keris spiritualism/mysticism. Very good general overview, thus my advice to be cautious all the times on how to treat one's keris.

For those who believe and practice keris bearing as a "package" or those who have experience in this matter, my concerns does not apply.

I am concerned to those do not believe, or do not have the knowledge in handling keris as a package, thus suffer in later days (not necessarily him the keris bearer, it could be the surrounding people that he cares about, or later generations.

imas560

10th September 2010, 03:57 AM

Hello all,
Just an update for the 5th day. Have dispensed with rag and went for ali foil (thanks Alam Shah).
Have managed to heat most days. Discernible movement around blade axis but no movement away from the blade.

A. G. Maisey

10th September 2010, 04:33 AM

Imas, could you please describe exactly how you are carrying out this procedure?

Where do you grip the blade?

How hot do you get the blade? If this has been glued in place with an epoxy resin like Araldite, you are going to have to get the tang to above 100C before the bond will be weak enough to pull apart. Araldite begins to soften at about 60C, but you need to get it to probably around 120C before you have a very weak bond. If it held with jabung, it does not need to get quite as hot; jabung is made from a natural resin and wax, once the wax content starts to soften the bond weakens.Shellac has a slightly higher melt point If it is held by tension on cloth, or hair, the tang needs to get hot enough to cause the material to start to smolder

How long do you heat and twist/pull at each heating attempt? When I have a difficult hilt I usually work at it for about 15-20 minutes at a time.

Do you alternate the sides of the blade to which you are applying heat?

I note that you have opted to use aluminium foil. Can you feel the hilt warming through the foil?

How much pressure do you apply when you try to pull the hilt away from the blade?

A keris of this age and type should not be at all difficult to remove the hilt. Five days is the sort of effort that is required from an ivory hilt that the tang has rusted into.

imas560

10th September 2010, 03:01 PM

Hello Mr. Maisey,
to try and separate the hilt from blade I grip the blade approx 1 hand width down the blade, enough space that with my right hand I am hard up against the edge of the hilt with thumbs almost fully extended.
I alternate the 2 sides of the blade heating, approx 3 fingers length (50mm/2") along the sororan area closest to the hilt. I only heat for as long as it takes the blade to warm my left hand on the blade.
I generally heat and cool for a maximum of 10 minutes at a time.
I don't feel much heat coming through the foil. I find that when my left hand is warm the sororan area closest to the hilt is getting almost too hot to comfortably touch.
I'm not using too much pressure, am using the guideline from one of the posts of using the strength of the thumbs alone to dictate the force. Am using mainly wrist strength for sideways movement (i.e. no forearm strength).
I'm using a gradual increase in force (i.e. no abrupt wrenching/application of torque).
I have noticed an almost burnt tobacco smell that still lingers long after the blade has cooled.

A. G. Maisey

10th September 2010, 11:57 PM

Thanks for that Imas.

I suspect that you are not getting the blade nearly hot enough.

I suggest that you hold the blade with your bare hand about halfway along the blade; when the blade gets too hot to hold, stop heating. By "too hot to hold", I mean that if you hold it any longer you're probably going to finish up with a sore hand. You do not stop heating when the blade only gets warm. If a blade is fixed with either jabung or shellac, the level of heat required will cause the jabung or shellac to bubble from around the base of the hilt, or mendak if one is fitted.

When you grip the blade to work the hilt back and forth and to press it off the blade with thumb pressure, you need to use a lump of old rag to grip the blade, if you do not, you will burn your hand, or cut it. It is possible to exert quite a lot of force by pushing your thumbs together, so if this is how you are doing it, the force should be sufficient.

If you feel that your hands are perhaps not strong enough, you can use folded newspaper to protect the blade, and clamp it into a vice. By "folded newspaper" I do not mean one or two sheets, I mean half an inch or so of tightly compacted paper on each side of the blade.

Ten minutes may or may not be long enough, you need to judge the heat by feeling it, and I've told you how to do that. The time is not critical. The regimen of repeated heating and cooling over a period of days is only resorted to with a hilt that is very difficult to remove, and we normally only find these on quite old keris. The most difficult hilts I have had to work with were ivory on old Sumatra keris. These were all very difficult and took a long time to release. Jawa and Madura hilts I have never encountered any real problems with, they normally let go at the first attempt.

If I were doing this hilt of yours, I would not use foil, however, if you feel that it gives you more confidence to use, by all means do so, however, I suggest that you limit the foil cover to only the bottom part of the hilt, so that your bare hand will grip the bare wood, and you can feel the heat through it. This is a small hilt, you do not want it to get too hot, you cannot feel how hot it gets if you cover it.

To return to the subject of heat.
When we heat treat steel to harden it, we take the temperature to a cherry red, this equates to around 700degrees centigrade. That is hot. It will burn right through your skin and flesh. When the steel is hot we cool it suddenly by plunging into oil or water. After this the steel is hard, but it will break easily, so to make it able to be used we draw some of the hardness out of it. To do this we gently heat the steel again until it shows a colour on the polished surface of straw or blue, or what ever colour we need for the purpose that the blade will be put to. You can see this colour change effect if you sharpen a chisel on a grind stone, if the chisel edge starts to go blue you'd better dip it in water immediately, or you'll have a soft chisel.

OK, so you can see that to get steel hot enough to make it soft, you've got to get it very hot. To get a blade hot enough to make it soft you need to leave it sitting in a working fire for a length of time. It is totally impossible to make steel hot enough to soften it in even the slightest degree with a candle.

Additionally, a keris blade is usually only hardened at most up to about three quarters of its length, it is not usually hardened at all in the area of the sorsoran.

A keris blade is made of iron and steel, the steel is a thin wafer inserted between two layers of iron, even if you get the outside of the blade very hot, the steel core of the blade will not be as hot as the outside of the blade. Steel contains carbon and that allows it to be hardened. Iron does not contain carbon, and cannot be hardened. You can heat iron all day long, plunge it into water, and it will still be soft.

It is impossible for you to do any damage at all to your blade by heating it with a candle.

imas560

11th September 2010, 12:35 AM

Hello Mr. Maisey,
I appreciate the advice and your taking the time to step me through the process.
I'll shorten up the ali foil on the hilt (was using it to protect the hilt from any damage I might inadvertently do with the candle flame).
I'll let the candle play longer on the blade to build up the heat so I can feel the heat with the hand I hold the hilt with.
Am finding the project very interesting and appreciate everyone's input/pointers.

A. G. Maisey

11th September 2010, 01:41 AM

Imas, you will find that once you've done this two or three times its very, very easy, and this drawn out experience you're having at the moment will be like a bad memory.

The hand that holds the hilt will tell you if it is getting too hot.

The hand that holds the blade will tell you if it is not hot enough.

imas560

16th September 2010, 06:08 AM

Hello,
bit the bullet today and after heating up the sorsoran area used a bit more force with a semi corkscrew action and the handle came off.
Was tightly attached with yarn and rag.
Before proceeding to the de-greasing stage I have a couple of questions:
Best way to remove the yarn and rag?
Can the yarn and rag be reused?
Would dearly like to keep the keris with it's components I received it with as much as possible
Many thanks

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris005.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris006.jpg

A. G. Maisey

16th September 2010, 08:42 AM

Just pull it off and throw it away. Its rubbish.

When you refit the hilt you will use knitting wool.

imas560

16th September 2010, 10:54 AM

Thanks Mr. Maisey.
Next step is the degrease which hopefully will happen this weekend.
Also have started inquiries about obtainability of arsenic.

David

16th September 2010, 12:38 PM

Can the yarn and rag be reused?
Would dearly like to keep the keris with it's components I received it with as much as possible
While i can understand your desire to preserve all the parts you received with your keris i agree that in this case this material is rubbish.It always seemed to be a matter of respect to the keris to give it some new wrapping when refitting everything after cleaning. Sorta like putting on clean undies after a shower. :)
But along that same desire to preserve, i had a couple of instances where the wrap was human hair and i have kept the remnants of those wraps in a little box. I know i'm crazy, but it just seemed too personal to part with. :shrug: :)

Jussi M.

16th September 2010, 12:55 PM

Sorta like putting on clean undies after a shower. :)
I just turn them around :D

To get back in topic, I look forward to see how this proceeds.

Thanks for sharing this.

J.

imas560

26th September 2010, 02:37 AM

Hello all,
spent a while trying to get an immersion suspension tube setup and finally managed to get 3 drink bottles glued together without leaks. So can now proceed with the degrease stage. I had a look in the local Asian Supermarket for some of the items mentioned (i.e. Axion dishwash liquid) but to no avail.
I used the following advice “I usually do it in the kitchen sink with warm water, dishwash liquid and soft toothbrush, then I rinse off and dry thoroughly before putting into the juice.”
I assembled the following items
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris26Sept10004.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris26Sept10008.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris26Sept10009.jpg

I then ran the water and immersed the keris in the soapy warm water.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris26Sept10010.jpg

I then gave the keris a good scrubbing with the toothbrush, there was quite a bit of surface rust on the peksi(?)

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris26Sept10013.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris26Sept10014.jpg

I then proceeded to dry the keris with some towel rag

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris26Sept10015.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris26Sept10016.jpg

And now it should be ready for step 3.

imas560

26th September 2010, 02:48 AM

Hello all,
I have created an immersion suspension tube from 3 clear plastic drink bottles and Selley's All Clear Sealant. The clear plastic tubes will enable me to take pictures showing the in process effect of the juice on the blade.
The tube is sitting in a clear plastic container just in case a leak develops.
The keris fits into the tube and can be covered entirely by juice, I especially wanted the peksi covered as it appeared to have the most rust.
The amount of juice used was around 1.7 litres, the length of the keris is approx 18" (45cm). I noticed after the first couple of hours a kind of settling effect on the juice with the top 3" (7cm) noticeably more transparent.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris26Sept10018.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris26Sept10020.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris26Sept10021.jpg

Marcokeris

26th September 2010, 05:41 AM

Imas, if i do like this inside home my wife ask for divorce :)

imas560

26th September 2010, 06:14 AM

Hello Marcokeris,
words have been exchanged and assurances (well...lies) given that "it won't take long"

Marcokeris

26th September 2010, 08:58 AM

Hello Marcokeris,
words have been exchanged and assurances (well...lies) given that "it won't take long"
:)

kronckew

26th September 2010, 09:08 AM

:D the word 'long' is relative. couple of weeks isn't 'long'.

Sajen

26th September 2010, 10:52 AM

Thank's for sharing your work! And good luck for your wedlock! :D :D

imas560

26th September 2010, 11:14 AM

Thanks
it's the fungus on the pineapple juice I'm looking forward to

A. G. Maisey

26th September 2010, 02:03 PM

I strongly recommend that you put the job outside, however it probably won't get too bad, because you're using a tube arrangement, rather than a trough, so there is less area of juice exposed to the air, additionally, the fungus only grows when its warm, and your weather is not real warm at the moment.

Rick

26th September 2010, 03:22 PM

Mate, you do not want that solution spilled in the house after about a week . :eek:

Sajen

26th September 2010, 03:27 PM

When I clean blades I do it in basement.

imas560

28th September 2010, 11:07 PM

Left the keris blade in the pineapple juice solution for a couple of days
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris29Sept10004.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris29Sept10005.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris29Sept10006.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris29Sept10013.jpg

imas560

28th September 2010, 11:09 PM

Then brushed with a toothbrush under warm running water

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris29Sept10016.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris29Sept10017.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris29Sept10018.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris29Sept10019.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris29Sept10020.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris29Sept10021.jpg

And then the keris blade was transferred back to the pineapple juice solution

imas560

28th September 2010, 11:15 PM

When I put the keris blade back in the juice I poured the juice into another container and then re-poured into the tube to mix the juice solution up. Should I do this?
Any pointers on dealing with the rust in the tungkekan(?) and along the peksi(?)?

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris29Sept10022.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris29Sept10023.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris29Sept10024.jpg

A. G. Maisey

28th September 2010, 11:32 PM

As to pouring the juice in and out of containers, I feel it is neither positive nor negative. I use wall paper troughs to clean in, and just leave the juice there until the job is done, if the fungus forms on top I just scoop it off and throw it away.

The hard rust in the joint between blade and gonjo will very probably never go, the only truly effective way to fix this is to remove the gonjo, clean the joint area, and reset the gonjo with epoxy resin mixed with iron filings in between blade and gonjo. This has been the preferred method of blade preservation with very old blades since epoxy resin became available, and it prevents further deterioration. I would not suggest that you did this, it is a job for somebody with the necessary skills and experience.

However I do strongly suggest that you use a sharp tool to pick the rust out from between blade and gonjo --- this does not need to be a perfect clean up job, just get the worst of it off the top --- and also all over the blade in the the pits and pockets where it will appear. I use a three sided file ground to a radiused point, a small pocket knife, and a saddlers awl to do this mechanical cleaning. I use a 2.5X machinists loupe during this mechanical cleaning process.

By the look of this blade you will probably get an acceptable result straight from the pineapple juice. After you think that you have it about as clean as you can get it, give it a final soak in the pineapple juice, then just rinse thoroughly and dry thoroughly, spray with WD40 and allow to drain over night. It won't be a perfect stain job, but it will be OK, and it will avoid the necessity for arsenic, and the difficult part of the process.

imas560

29th September 2010, 09:51 PM

Took the keris blade from the juice

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris30Sept10001.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris30Sept10002.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris30Sept10003.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris30Sept10004.jpg

imas560

29th September 2010, 09:55 PM

Scrubbed under running water, the blade pattern (pamor?) really starting to show and under light...so is the rust. I had a go at a small bit of rust and required a bit of work to remove. Will soak and scrub for another couple of days before getting in to the rust removal on the weekend.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris30Sept10006.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris30Sept10007.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris30Sept10009.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/imas560/KerisClean/keris30Sept10010.jpg

A. G. Maisey

29th September 2010, 11:47 PM

You do not do the rust picking away in one big slap.

You do it every time you take the blade out of the juice.

Once you remove a speck of rust, it will probably show again several times after you take the blade from the juice, so you clean it off every time you take the blade out of the juice and rinse and brush it. Eventually the rust no longer appears.

The process only takes a few minutes, its no big deal.

cedric Le Dauphin

3rd October 2010, 11:43 AM

Hi everyone

I know I drop in a little late in the conversation, but it took me a while to through all the posting ;)

Some of the forum mates know that I love keris and that my favourite subject is keris handles.

I don't want to blow on the ashes, but please do not immerge handles in boiling waters. It’s a waste. That is understood and the subject seems to gather everybody approving.

But something aroused in my mind that hasn't been mentioned in this posting.

Alan talked, very well by the way, about the isi, yoni, and digdaya.
Such things, that I believe in, are rarely talk and I understand it.
But nobody ever mention the relation between the handle and the blade. I know that the Malaysians don't give the same importance to the blade and to the handle (except in some rare cases and in the patan influenced area) but I would like to hear of the other keris lovers and pengukir.
Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?

Regards, Cedric

A. G. Maisey

3rd October 2010, 10:11 PM

That is a thoughtful question Cedric, however, I feel that if meaningful discussion is to flow from your question, you need to narrow the focus a little and define the geographic location, and the period, to which you wish the question to apply.

In other words:- where and when?

PenangsangII

4th October 2010, 11:41 AM

Dear Cedric,

Actually Malaysians also put same importance to the keris hilts though not as much as the blade. Then again, it all depends on why we collect keris in the first place? If the purpose is "isian", then of course the way the collector's concerned perspective would vary, say compare to those collecting keris for the sake of the love of artistic objects. This also may vary depending on personal experience, gurus (if any) and peers.

Some of the Malaysian keris philosophy was adopted from the Bugis perspective, where not too long ago (even in 20th C), keris handls are attached to the blades permanently using traditional resins (mixture of damar, kemenyan, melati flower and a needle). This mixture has everything to do with esoteric requirement, and handles fixed like this, according to Bugis tradition, are not to be removed if the pamossa (isian?/yoni?/power etc..) is to be retained. Even when the keris is due to cleaning (Muharram /Maulud /Hari Raya Haji), only the blade is to be immersed in the cleaning solution. The hilt (and the watingan) is to be let dry.

As I also collect Bugis and pattani pieces beside Jawanese, I treat them according to the keris's origins... for a Bugis keris, I treat it like a Bugis would, and that also goes to the Pattani and Jawanese pieces.

cedric Le Dauphin

4th October 2010, 06:36 PM

Hi everyone

Thanks for the answers

Alan I would suggest first java before second half of the 19th century.

regards

A. G. Maisey

4th October 2010, 10:08 PM

Cedric, in his "History of Java", Raffles wrote something to the effect that at the time he was there the place of the keris in Javanese society was similar to the place of the small sword in European society, 50 years earlier. Raffles came to Jawa in 1811 or 1812.

So, if we're talking 50 years earlier, we're talking around 1750, we need to remember that the Court of Mataram moved from Kartasura to Surakarta in 1745. The Kartasura era was a troubled one, the period between the death of Sultan Agung and the establishment of Karatsura was continual turmoil, Sultan Agung's reign was characterised by war and expansion, Mataram itself was established in a fashion not dissimilar to a Mafia takeover, prior to Mataram we had Pajang which again was not really rooted in peaceful legitimacy, before Pajang , Demak which replaced Majapahit following the internal tensions that had weakened the power of this once mighty kingdom. As we all know, Demak was Islamic, and as a part of Islam's gentle insinuation into Javanese society, the keris was adopted as Islam's own.

To attempt to understand the original place of the keris in Javanese society, we need to go back to at least Majapahit, and we need to try to understand the place of the keris as a whole within that society, before we can begin to understand the place of a component part of that keris.

If we consider the hilt of the keris in Islamic Jawa, I would suggest that the hilt has no role other than to complete the dress.

Consider:- the maker of a keris blade can an mpu, in which case he is a cultural descendant of the same common ancestor as the rulers of Jawa, and he has the power to create a symbolically and magically charged cultural artifact; if he is not an mpu, he is at least a pande, or a craftsman.

On the other hand, the maker of a hilt is a tukang, "tukang jejeran", in other words a tradesman. Tradesmen are not engaged in the production of magically, or symbolically charged artifacts, they simply do a job for money.

To find a time in Jawa when the role of the hilt of a keris can be interpreted in terms other than utilitarian, we need to go back a very long way in time, and we need to gain an understanding not only of Javanese society at that time, but of the underlying values of societies within Maritime South East Asia.

Cedric, I could waffle on and provide several thousand words of ideas, hypotheses and unsupported rumours, but I cannot provide a single, solid supportable comment in answer to what I understand the core intent of your question to be. If you do indeed have an intense interest in this question, you may come to some understanding of the matter if you are prepared to immerse yourself in a study of the society of early Jawa, and of other more primitive societies in Maritime SE Asia in more recent times.

I cannot give you the answer you seek.

Sajen

5th October 2010, 12:31 AM

In general this will be correct but what is with the so called Gana hilts? I have seen some which are attributed to Java.

In case to Bugis Kerdas hilts I want to remember to this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10454

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey

5th October 2010, 12:53 AM

Detlef, Cedric asked for clarification of the role of the hilt in respect of Javanese keris, and he nominated the period prior to +/-1850.

Now you ask "--- what is with ---Gana hilts---?"

Why limit the question to only this hilt style?

We can find many hilt forms in the Javanese keris that are continuations of pre-Islamic Javanese traditions, and we can hypothesize in respect of these hilt forms until the cows come home, but to provide a definitive, supportable response to a clear, concise question is a different matter altogether.

If the point of this exercise is to be a parade of all the hypotheses that float around Javanese hilt forms, then let us declare the party open.

If the point of the exercise is to be to provide a solid, supportable response to a very worthwhile question, then perhaps somebody amongst us can provide the answers that I cannot.

Sajen

5th October 2010, 01:32 AM

If we consider the hilt of the keris in Islamic Jawa, I would suggest that the hilt has no role other than to complete the dress.

Maybe I have understand something wrong ( please have in mind that english isn't my native language) but in my understanding (what I have learned, read and have been told) have a Gana hilt a other role than only to complete the dress. But I might be wrong by this. :shrug:

A. G. Maisey

5th October 2010, 01:57 AM

Sajen

5th October 2010, 02:06 AM

Understand and taken! :)

A. G. Maisey

5th October 2010, 02:18 AM

As an after thought, I feel it might be helpful, Detlef, if you were to define exactly what you consider to be a "gana" hilt.

Bearing in mind the several quite different meanings of the word "gana" in Modern Javanese, the meaning in Old Javanese, and the meaning according to the Hindu belief system, plus the fact that I have never heard this word used in Central Jawa as a descriptor for a keris hilt type, I am just a little curious as to exactly what you, and some other people regard as the essential characteristics of a gana hilt, and why.

Exactly where do we first find the term "gana hilt" used to refer to a Javanese hilt form ?

Sajen

5th October 2010, 02:27 AM

Since it is in Germany already early morning i will think about and will try to answer later. BTW, I don't know the translation of the javanese word gana.

A. G. Maisey

5th October 2010, 02:52 AM

David

5th October 2010, 04:19 AM

Detlef, you have possibly heard and read the same, or similar things to those that I have heard and read. However, I have the character defect that I do not believe everything I read or am told. I want a lot more than somebody's personal, or group, belief that something is so. Most particularly where keris beliefs come into play, I want a lot more than 20th. century Javanese belief, or imaginative hypotheses constructed to suit a personal hobby horse.

All the ideas and stories are interesting, and in the right context can provide the foundations for congenial conversation. But after the conversation is finished, nothing has been substantiated, and all the big questions are still left standing with no supported answers.

There are at least two ways that we can approach the subject that Cedric has raised:- we can pull out all our interesting stories and ideas, or we can attempt to provide solid, supported answers. I've probably heard most of the interesting stories, so these don't hold much interest for me, but I would really appreciate some solid supportable answers, because in spite of a great deal of searching, I have yet to find these answers.
Frankly Alan, while i quite understand your position here, many of us do not personally have your experience or access to all the "ideas and stories" in regards to this question. Ideas and stories can be more than a foundation for congenial conversation. They can sometimes feed hypothesis or spark theories and can lead us on to further discovery. Then sometimes they just lead us only to dead ends. But i see no reason to quash discussion here simply because the answers might remain unsubstantiated or because you have already heard all the stories. My only disclaimer here is that when we speak from a place of folklore it cannot be held up as absolute fact. It is what it is and must be examined and valued as such. But i think at this point we are probably all aware that there are many aspects of the keris that will always remain somewhat unsubstantiated to some extent.

A. G. Maisey

5th October 2010, 05:43 AM

David, I am not attempting to quash discussion.

If there is a group consensus that the ideas, stories and unsubstantiated hypotheses are a valuable contribution to keris knowledge, then by all means let those who consider this to be so bring forth those ideas and stories.

Personally I feel that there are already far too many fairy stories about the keris floating around. We can call these fairy stories folk tales, or myths, or legends but they do not bring us any closer to an answer to Cedric's question. Had his question been phrased differently, we may have had room to move and we could dragged out all the quaint and interesting yarns we've heard and entertained one another with them, but that was not what Cedric asked for:-

"--- the relation between the handle and the blade. ---
Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?"

and then following my prompt, he specified a time and place.

An opinion is a view or judgement that one has formed about something.

It can be an informed opinion, in which case we should be able to substantiate it, or it can be an uninformed opinion, when we are unable to substantiate it.

I have little time for unsubstantiated opinion. I do have several "good ideas" in relation to the form and cultural significance of keris hilts, but at present I cannot produce support for these "good ideas" so they will remain unstated. If I ever do state them, they will be stated with some semblance of logical supporting evidence.

But that's only me, if others wish to present unsubstantiated opinion that is always their prerogative.

In the terms of Cedric's question, I am unable to present him with an opinion which I can support.

I repeat:-

I am not attempting to quash discussion.

In fact I have already provided a couple of questions which , in light of past experience, should generate discussion. Who knows, we might even get a replay of the beautiful Durga hilt discussions.

asomotif

5th October 2010, 11:56 AM

dishwash liquid and soft toothbrush
Interesting choice to take your wifes toothbrush.
Did she get angry ? :D

Thanks for posting your pictures of this process. Always nive to see how others proceed. And interesting to see a simple thread about a madura bring-back keris loosing itself in deep extensive discussions. (not disrespect intended)

Small blades i often just put in the kitchen in a large beerglass.
Other larger items I place outside of the house.

Good luck with the project.

As for the relation of the keris blade and handle.
I once read a "story" that the hilt should not be removed to far from the blade and/or that the blade should not be without a handle too long.
Those stories belong in the unsubstantiated category as far as I am concerned.
It is out of respect that I will not leave a blade without "dress"too long. but not out of fear or believe.

Best regards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey

5th October 2010, 01:15 PM

Between 1975 and about the year 2000, I was told by three separate, very knowledgeable and respected keris people living in Central Jawa that as a man is to a woman, so is the warangka to the wilahan, and that as a hat is to a man, so is the jejeran to the wilahan. The hat --- sorry, jejeran --- simply completes the dress.

That's a nice little story to help get things going.

Last quarter of the 20th century. Central Jawa --- one person in Jogja in 1975, the other two in Solo, a little later.

Do we really accept this as the way in which things were seen in Jawa during the Majapahit era? I rather think not. My feeling is that somewhere along the way, something sort of got misplaced.

If we want stories, we now have two, one from Willem, one from me.

Maybe there are some more interesting little stories out there?

Or just maybe somebody has been able to get back into the old literature and the records from pre-Demak a little further than I have. Or maybe somebody has been able to unearth some Balinese beliefs. Or maybe somebody has surveyed the overarching commonalities of cultural foundations in Maritime SE Asia, and by logical analysis provide us with a supportable hypothesis.

Whatever maybe out there let's bring it out and let it see daylight. Let's see what we can add to true knowledge in this respect.

Sajen

6th October 2010, 03:21 PM

Thanks Detlef.

In Modern Javanese 'gana' has a number of meanings:- a share of property, something in the form of something, a fetus, a bee, larva, pupa, a cloud, a little statue of a living thing, a god with an elephant head (Ganesha).

In Old Javanese it can mean a group, or friends, or helpers, or a group of minor deities, or Ganesha himself, or a division of the military.

In formal Hindu belief "gana" also has a number of meanings, but usually it is an abbreviation of "gana- devatas'' which can be understood as "troops of deities", that is, deities who usually appear as classes of deities who attend Siwa and are under the command of Ganesha, thus the connection of Ganesha:Ganapati:Gana (Ganapati=Lord of the Ganas).

See how confusing these things can become?

Hello Alan,

the red marked is what I understand before by the word gana. My understanding of a gana hilt is a natural grown piece wood (or other material, for example akar bahar) which use the natural knots without a lot of carving to show an anthropomorphic figure. And it is told in many books (of course without any proof) that handles like this have a function as jimat.

Kind regards,

Detlef

imas560

8th October 2010, 02:03 AM

Hello asomotif,
she was bearing up pretty well till she caught me using the toothbrush to scoop off the goopy fungus. That stuff is nasty.

A. G. Maisey

8th October 2010, 04:47 AM

David

8th October 2010, 05:52 AM

I see your concern here Alan and i am wondering the same. I think Detlef also questions this terminology since in his post raising this question he refers to them as "so called" Gana hilts, showing some doubt of the terminology. However i think this is a separate concern from the original question, which is, does this type of hilt that we are calling "gana hilts" (as described by Detlef in his last post) hold any kind of power or purpose in any traditional cultural context beyond merely completing the dress?

A. G. Maisey

8th October 2010, 06:08 AM

Yes David, agreed.

A completely different question to that raised by Cedric.

Here is Cedric's original question:-

"---But nobody ever mention the relation between the handle and the blade. ---
Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?---"

which is most certainly very different to the question raised by Imas, which began this thread:-

"---I bought a keris recently but am not sure of origin.
I've had a look in van Zonneveld and a search in the posts.
Any help in identifying would be greatly appreciated---"

The nature of threads in our discussions does seem to wander all over the ship, so now we have this additional question which is this:-

When did the term "Gana Hilt" first appear in print as the name for this naturally occurring form used as a hilt?

If you feel that discussion is becoming too diverse, perhaps in your capacity as moderator you may care to isolate each of the several topics that have been addressed in this thread, together with their relevant posts, and start new threads with them?

David

8th October 2010, 01:30 PM

Nope, i don't feel the discussion is becoming too diverse at all and your question is indeed valid. I fully understand the nature of of threads in these discussions at this point. I just don't want to see this tangent obscure Sajen and Imas question before we have had a chance to explore it more. There is certainly room for everyone's questions here... :)

Sajen

8th October 2010, 03:05 PM

Thanks for your response Detlef.

Yes, I think that your idea of a "gana" hilt is about as most people who use the term understand it.

However, when was this term first used for these hilts?

The earliest use of the term "gana" that I can find is in Martin Kerner's keris grip book that was published in 1996. I cannot find the term used to refer to this type of hilt, prior to this. Because Martin was rather relaxed in his attitude towards providing references for his information, I have no alternative at the moment but to assume that this term is a product of Martin's inventive imagination. However, Martin also uses the term to refer to a hilt made of ceramic, and that can hardly be a naturally occurring form, so just exactly what did Martin have in mind as the attributes of this particular hilt form?

I am aware that the term is used by some people who contribute to discussion in this forum, but I do not know where else it appears in print.

Detlef, since you are aware of the presence of this terminology in many books, other than in Martin Kerner's keris grip book, could I trouble you to name those books, and the date of publication?

My present feeling is that we could well have another situation similar to the intensely interesting Durga terminology on our hands.

Alan,

first of all I have to note that David is correct by his assumption that I used the term "so called gana hilts" intentional. And that I write "in many books" have been a little bit hastily, sorry.
I think that you are most probable correct that Kerner used first time the term "gana hilt". So only other books apart from Kerner's publications ( 1. Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen; 2000, 2. Keris-Griffe aus dem malayischen Archipel, Museum Rietberg Zürich, 1996) used the term gana hilt are 1. Kris Gli Invincibili from Vanna & Mario Ghiringhhelli, 1991 , 2. The Invicible Krises II, Vanna Ghiringhelli, 2007 and 3. Poignees de Kriss, Petit chefs-d' oeuvre d' Indonesie, Jean Greffioz, 2009. (So far I know)
So I think that it is most probable that this authors assumed the term from Kerner. Since Jean is also member of this forum he can maybe enlighten us if this is in case by his own publication.
So I am in analogy with your observation the the first use of the term "gana hilt" in print appears in Kerners books.
Maybe Pak Ganja like to jump in the discussion and can tell us if he have any presentiment of the term in use in old Java.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen

8th October 2010, 03:10 PM

A. G. Maisey

8th October 2010, 11:12 PM

Thanks David, and thank you Detlef for your clarification.

Martin was a fine gentleman --- at least in my estimation --- and a very likable an intelligent person, but he did have a very active imagination.

In fact, I do not know of any formal name for these naturally occurring forms that are used as keris hilts. Admittedly, I've never seen many of them in Jawa, in fact, I've never seen many of them, period.

It may be that in the current era collector cliques there is some sort of accepted name for this type of hilt, but what I'd like to know is if there is a formal name that goes back a few years, say prior to WWII. I'll see if I can make some enquiries.

David

8th October 2010, 11:20 PM

Alan, you say that you haven't seen many of these so-called "gana" hilts. Would you say that of the ones you have seen that there are a few with some age to them, or are the hilts themselves a fairly recent phenomenon?

A. G. Maisey

9th October 2010, 01:49 AM

The very few hilts I have seen like this have all been old, with good patina. I've never seen a recent one.

Jean

10th October 2010, 09:58 AM

Alan,

I think that you are most probable correct that Kerner used first time the term "gana hilt". So only other books apart from Kerner's publications ( 1. Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen; 2000, 2. Keris-Griffe aus dem malayischen Archipel, Museum Rietberg Zürich, 1996) used the term gana hilt are 1. Kris Gli Invincibili from Vanna & Mario Ghiringhhelli, 1991 , 2. The Invicible Krises II, Vanna Ghiringhelli, 2007 and 3. Poignees de Kriss, Petit chefs-d' oeuvre d' Indonesie, Jean Greffioz, 2009. (So far I know)
So I think that it is most probable that this authors assumed the term from Kerner. Since Jean is also member of this forum he can maybe enlighten us if this is in case by his own publication.
So I am in analogy with your observation the the first use of the term "gana hilt" in print appears in Kerners books.
Maybe Pak Ganja like to jump in the discussion and can tell us if he have any presentiment of the term in use in old Java.

Regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,
I am not at home now but confirm that I used the books from Martin Kerner and Vana Ghiringhelli as my sources, but also Tammens Volume 3 and the Ensiklopedi Keris if I am correct (sorry I can check it here). I bought this hilt from a very knowledgeable selller from your country and he described it in the same way.
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey

10th October 2010, 11:08 AM

Jean

10th October 2010, 11:47 AM

Hello Alan,
Thanks, I forgot the book from Solyom and probably others. The book from Huyser is well-known and should be available with some Dutch members. I would like to mention that some gana hilts seem to originate from Sumatra like my second specimen, this particular one was probably not fitted on a keris originally since the peksi hole has a rectangular shape and the section of the hilt is not round (longer than wide).
Best regards
Jean

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Thanks for your input Jean.

I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris".

As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity.

guwaya

10th October 2010, 12:05 PM

Thanks for your input Jean.

I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris".

As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity.

He refers to a comparison with J.G.Huyser, Het vervaardigen van krissen, Nederlandsch Indie oud en niew, 1916-17, 1, pp.235-236, 547-561, 1917-18,2, pp.26-37, 102-114, 326-336,357-366,411-417,439-447. This is pretty comprehensive reference, but we cannot know exactly what the reference provides without looking at it. Does anybody have access to this source?

Garrett will be spending a few days with me in couple of weeks, I'll ask him where he first heard this term.

Hello A. G. Maisey, Hello to the Forum:

Here the citate from:
J.G.Huyse:, Het vervaardigen van krissen, Nederlandsch Indie oud en niew, 1917-18, 2, p. 33:

"................... door Dr. Hazeu beschreven als een menschelijk wezen "men zou zeggen een pas geboren kindje n hurkende houding, met narr boven bijna pits toeloopend hoofd, de gebogen armen stijf onder de kin en onnatuurlijk lange voeten en teenen. In vorm en houding gelijkt het sterk op enkele van die steenen 'leloehoer-beelden", die men hier en daar in adgelegen hoeken van West-Java aantreft, van 't zgn. Padjadjaran-type. De sporen van boreh, waarmee 't zeker-vaak besmeerd is, zijn nog zichtbaar. Sommigen beweren, dat zulke beeldjes ook wel 'gana-gana' heten. Volgens anderen is er eigenlijk verschil tusschen oendooek en 'gana'; een oendoek zou uitsluitend een zeepaardje, een 'gana' daarentegen een mensch of kind, 'kebo', 'sapi' of kip voorstellingen. ........................... ."

I hope this is of service for all and this is a wonderfull sample for my former promotion for old or older literature. As I must recognize - and this I declare without any aim to step on somebodies feet - it seems, that still most present so-called 'keris'-lovers read this critism but are still focused on to the popular picture books - naturally, its fare more compfortable. :D :)

Regards,
guwaya

A. G. Maisey

10th October 2010, 01:11 PM

Thank you Guwaya.

Here is what google translator makes of this:-

by Dr.. Hazeu described as a human being "one would say a newborn baby n squatting position, with jesters over almost ring-shaped head, the curved arms tight under the chin and unnaturally long feet and toes. In form and attitude resembles strongly to some of the stones 'leloehoer images, which here and there in the corner of West Java adgelegen encounter, van' t called Padjadjaran type. The traces of boreh, which it certainly is-often smeared, are still visible. Some claim that such figurines called "gana-gana 'called. Others argue oendooek difference between fact and 'gana', one would only oendoek a seahorse, a 'gana' hand man or a child, 'Kebo', 'sapi' performances or chicken. .

I'm afraid that what I read here does not provide me with any sort of solid evidence that this "gana" or "gana-gana" is a legitimate usage. It seems that what is reported here is rather confusing. Can you clarify and substantiate?

Thanks.

I agree completely that older literature does contain much valuable information, however some of us do not have access to sources in the European languages, not only because of the physical absence of the publication, but also because of the inability to read Dutch, German, French & etc.

guwaya

10th October 2010, 02:29 PM

[/QUOTE]

"I'm afraid that what I read here does not provide me with any sort of solid evidence that this "gana" or "gana-gana" is a legitimate usage ...... "

I agree completely that there is no real evidence that the term 'gana' is a legitime usage and under the the scholary view - I for myself - in scientific essays would prefer to describe such hilts as "natural grown hilts in abstract forms associated with .......". For myself I never heard the term 'gana' used by Javanese persons. Anyway, the articel from Huyser shows, that the term 'gana' was known in1917/1918.

"...... European languages, not only because of the physical absence of the publication, but also because of the inability to read Dutch, German, French & etc."

Naturally many people cannot speek or read a lot of languages but this literature exsists and if somebody wants to research seriously he has to find a way to arrange it, otherwise there will be a great lack in reseaches - just think about the articles and books written in Javanese or Indonesian. The sources are possible to get as - I can order copies in the Australia library and other states have the same system.

Nobody can expect that foreign researchers who are working deep and seriously translate their results into English - too many faults might happen in the translation which could leed to misunderstandings not wanted by the writer. There is a lot of old literature - important literature - about ethnographic studies in generell written in Dutch, German, French, Portugiese and other languages due to the fact that these countries have a long history. Literary research - a difficult and time eating matter, a full time job. So, the people prefer to take the easy literature (unfortunately uncritically) and I am nearly sure that in 20 years the serious informations among collectors are lost - sadly lost.

Thank you

Sajen

10th October 2010, 06:36 PM

Hello Detlef,
I am not at home now but confirm that I used the books from Martin Kerner and Vana Ghiringhelli as my sources, but also Tammens Volume 3 and the Ensiklopedi Keris if I am correct (sorry I can check it here). I bought this hilt from a very knowledgeable selller from your country and he described it in the same way.
Best regards
Jean

Hello Jean,

thank you for clarification. By Tammens Vol. 3 and in the Ensiklopedi Keris I can't find a direction to Gana hilts at a quick look.

Best regards,

Detlef

Sajen

10th October 2010, 07:36 PM

I have to apologize for my imperfect research of first usage from term Gana. This may depend on that I don't take enough time for my research. I have had Solyom in my hands but don't see the pictured hilt at page 35.
What is very important to note: Huyser write on page 32 that Dr. Groneman in his studies about the keris observed that in the keraton of Jogya are keris hilts carried which are called Gana.

I quote: "Dr. Groneman vermeldt in zijn studie over de kris, dat in den Kraton van Djokja grepen worden getragen in mensch- of diergestalte, in den vorm van een djagoengkolf (d.i. mais). of van bloemen, die gana genoemd worden, of ook wel boomwortels zooals bij. op No. 25, die de menschelijke gestalte weergeven."

I am not very used to read netherlands but I try a free translation:
"Dr. Groneman described in his studies about the kris that in the Keraton of Jogya keris hilts are carried in human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers (here I am unsure if it is the correct way of tranlation) which are called Gana, carved from tree roots, look at Pic. No. 25, which are showing a human figure."

This translation may have some imprecision but I am sure that the esthesia will be correct.

So the first usage of the term "Gana" in matters of keris hilts in written dokuments seems to go back to Dr. Groneman i.e. the years between 1910-1913.

So it seems that the "so called keris-lovers" thoroughly able to do a good research! :D :D :D

Regards,

Detlef

Henk

10th October 2010, 07:55 PM

Detlef,

A good translation. Well done. Of course, for the critical Dutch among us the translation could be refined, but the green line is a correct translation.

Sajen

10th October 2010, 08:06 PM

Detlef,

A good translation. Well done. Of course, for the critical Dutch among us the translation could be refined, but the green line is a correct translation.

Hello Henk,

thank you! :) :)

A. G. Maisey

10th October 2010, 10:59 PM

This discussion is developing into the type of thing that interests me. Thank you gentlemen for your input.

Detlef, you have given us a translation that Henk, who is apparently a native speaker of Dutch, has told us is a good translation:-

"Dr. Groneman described in his studies about the kris that in the Keraton of Jogya keris hilts are carried in human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers (here I am unsure if it is the correct way of tranlation) which are called Gana, carved from tree roots, look at Pic. No. 25, which are showing a human figure."

If I run the relevant words through an online translator I get:-

"Dr. Groneman mentions in his study of the keris that is in the Yogya Kraton handles carried in human or animal figure, in the form of a djagoengkolf (ie corn). or flowers, which are called Gana, also known as with tree roots. at No. 25, which show the human form. "

I think that the online translator comes fairly close in sense to your translation, so we can probably accept that you have translated the sense of the passage adequately.

However, in the recent publication of Groneman in English, the translation has significant variation:-

" In the Kraton of Jogjakata --- they carry ukiran in the shape of humans and animals, of djagung (corn-) cobs or flowers, called gana, as well as some made from tree roots resembling the human form."

What interests me is this:- your quote is a report of Groneman's original writing, note "--- Dr. Groneman mentions in his study---" , it is not the original words written by Groneman.

In your translation, and in the online translation of this passage, it can be taken that a particular form of hilt is identified that is known as the gana form, that is:-

"--- human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers --- which are called Gana, carved from tree roots---"

and

"--- human or animal figure, in the form of a djagoengkolf (ie corn). or flowers, which are called Gana, also known as with tree roots ---"

However, if we look at the translation done by Peter Richardus of Leiden, and Timothy Rogers of Oxford, we find that the passage is given quite a different meaning, in that the hilts in the form of humans, animals , flowers and cobs of corn are called "gana", and " --- as well as some made from tree roots resembling the human form." which are not given any name.

I believe that we can accept that the English edition of Groneman was sourced from Groneman's original writings, however, I will put that question to Tim today and ask him for a clarification of the source used, and the reliability of the translation.

This is a vital distinction, and indicates to me that perhaps everybody who has followed on from Groneman has sourced from the publication that you have used, and as a result people have been calling these naturally occurring root-form hilts by the name intended for a different form for a very long time.

I don't know about you people, but I really do find this sort of thing to be of intense interest.

A. G. Maisey

10th October 2010, 11:33 PM

Thank you for your input to this discussion, Guwaya.

The word "gana" does occur in Modern Javanese , so it is not a term invented by bules, but the question is this:- is it correctly applied to this naturally occurring root-form hilt?

In light of the post I have just now made, I am currently in some doubt that it is correctly applied.

If we accept the Richardus/Rogers translation, obviously the current belief that it applies to the naturally occurring root-form hilt is just plain wrong.

At the moment it looks to me like Mr. Huyser made an error that has been repeated ever since.

The problem of information contained in varying languages is certainly a real one, and it is one of the functions of academia to co-relate these varying sources and make them intelligible to the world community. This is one of the reasons for a community of academics to exist, and it justifies the expenditure of the broader community on their upkeep.

What academics produce is then able to be examined by those of us who are not academics, and when this academically produced work is examined by people from the broader community, who come from a variety of disciplines, it is only natural that questions will be asked that may not have occurred to the original translator, or reporter.

Academics by nature are researchers, and where adequate funds are available, specialist academics who are specialist researchers , can be employed. Where specialist researchers cannot be employed, then the academic community as a whole becomes the researcher for the general community, as a whole. The results of research can then be subjected to analysis.

I am not an academic, and have never had the slightest desire to be, nor to become one. My own discipline is audit, and that involves the very close examination of data and the application of logical examination and analysis to that data. This process almost invariably results in the formation of questions.

This is what I do. I ask questions. It is not my job to construct the answers, I construct the questions, and then I put those questions to specialists in the various fields involved in the enquiry.

If the right question is asked, the right answer will be provided, if it currently exists.

When I apply myself to matters to do with the keris, I adopt the same approach. It is difficult for me to approach the matter in any other way, as this is simply the application of my professional skills to a different field.

Sajen

10th October 2010, 11:57 PM

This discussion is developing into the type of thing that interests me. Thank you gentlemen for your input.

Jean, you have given us a translation that Henk, who is apparently a native speaker of Dutch, has told us is a good translation:-

Only for correctness, not Jean has translated the text, it have been my humble self who have done it. :)

Detlef

A. G. Maisey

11th October 2010, 12:03 AM

Thank you Detlef, and my apologies.

This error has been corrected.

guwaya

11th October 2010, 09:33 AM

This discussion is developing into the type of thing that interests me. Thank you gentlemen for your input.

However, in the recent publication of Groneman in English, the translation has significant variation:-

" In the Kraton of Jogjakata --- they carry ukiran in the shape of humans and animals, of djagung (corn-) cobs or flowers, called gana, as well as some made from tree roots resembling the human form."

What interests me is this:- your quote is a report of Groneman's original writing, note "--- Dr. Groneman mentions in his study---" , it is not the original words written by Groneman.

In your translation, and in the online translation of this passage, it can be taken that a particular form of hilt is identified that is known as the gana form, that is:-

"--- human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers --- which are called Gana, carved from tree roots---"

and

"--- human or animal figure, in the form of a djagoengkolf (ie corn). or flowers, which are called Gana, also known as with tree roots ---"

However, if we look at the translation done by Peter Richardus of Leiden, and Timothy Rogers of Oxford, we find that the passage is given quite a different meaning, in that the hilts in the form of humans, animals , flowers and cobs of corn are called "gana", and " --- as well as some made from tree roots resembling the human form." which are not given any name.

I believe that we can accept that the English edition of Groneman was sourced from Groneman's original writings, however, I will put that question to Tim today and ask him for a clarification of the source used, and the reliability of the translation.

This is a vital distinction, and indicates to me that perhaps everybody who has followed on from Groneman has sourced from the publication that you have used, and as a result people have been calling these naturally occurring root-form hilts by the name intended for a different form for a very long time.

I don't know about you people, but I really do find this sort of thing to be of intense interest.

A. G. Maisey:

If I understand it correct, you are interested into getting the original version of Groneman's statement - here it i.

It is taken from the original periodical: International Archiv für Ethnographie Bd. XIX, p. 180. Leiden 1910.

Here are the continuing essays about "Der Kris der Javanen" which were later published in book-form. The original text is in German language and here's the citate:

"Im kraton von Jogjakarta tragen die panakawan (dienende junge Edelleute, Pagen) wenn sie mit entblöstem Oberkörper und Federn versehenem Haarschmuck, ohne Kopftuch (semut gatet) erscheinen, ukiran in Form menschlicher und tierischer Gestalten, in Form von djagung (Mais-)Kolben oder Blumen. die gana genannt werden, wie auch einige dem menschlichen Bilde gleichende Baumwurzen."

This is the original citate from Gronemans statement - I will mail this first and then try to do an exact translation.

Regards

guwaya

11th October 2010, 10:19 AM

[/QUOTE]
Here now the closest translation I am able to do:

In the keraton of Yogyakarta, the panakawan (serving peers, pages), if they appear with bare upper part of the body and feather performed hair-decoration without headscarf (semut gatut), are wearing ukiran of the form of human and animistic gestalt, in the design of jagung (maize-) Kolben or flowers which are called gana, as well as some tree-roots resembling the human figure.

The translation is a bit bumpy but I prefered to leave it as litterally as possible.

Regards

A. G. Maisey

11th October 2010, 11:45 AM

Thank you very much Guwaya.

You have illustrated beautifully what I had begun to suspect, that is, that the source of the name "gana" being applied to these tree root natural forms has been the incorrect quotation in Huyser.

Your translation agrees in the crucial part with the Richardus/ Rogers translation, so I now believe that there can be no doubt that the application of the name "gana" to the natural tree root hilt form is incorrect. We do not know if there ever has been a specific name for this form.

Apart from clarifying an error that has been ongoing for a very long time, this little exercise has demonstrated that the use of sources other than an original to provide a quotation is fraught with danger. I can think of any number of such cases in books that deal with the keris, and I am certain that the same problem would occur in other fields.

We must always go to the original.

kai

11th October 2010, 11:55 AM

Just to add a comment regarding the correct translation of Groneman's original:
... ukiran in Form menschlicher und tierischer Gestalten, in Form von djagung (Mais-)Kolben oder Blumen, die gana genannt werden, wie auch einige dem menschlichen Bilde gleichende Baumwurzen.
In German, two different meanings seem to be possible and I have a really tough time to decide which may be the intended one.

Interpretation 1:
ukiran of human and animal form,
(ukiran) of jagung form (corn cobs or flowers called gana), and
also some tree roots resembling a human figure.

This may be the intended meaning but it would be only unequivocal if Groneman had completed the enumeration:
(ukiran) of human form (made from tree roots naturally resembling a human figure).
I feel Groneman avoided this more tedious writing for stylistic reasons but grammatically this is not correct (neither with nor without repeating the word ukiran).

Interpretation 2:
ukiran of the form of human and animal, and
ukiran of the form of jagung (corn) cobs or flowers which are called gana (as is also true for some tree-roots resembling a human figure).

For this interpretation there is the crucial "and" missing: In German, one would have expected a "sowie" for stylistic reasons. A word can go missing in print but in this case it doesn't appear to be a printer's error since there's no punctuation mark (i. e. comma) in front of an "und" or "sowie" in German. Still, it could be an enumeration of just 2 alternatives separated only with an ideosyncratic comma...

What are the Dutch grammar rules for enumerations since this was Groneman's language?

BTW, is the tree of life interpretation for the corn cob hilt type undisputed?

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey

11th October 2010, 01:05 PM

Thanks for that additional input Kai.

In the interpretations of both Guwaya and Richardus/Rogers there is a clear separation between two groups of hilt forms:-

group 1 is the human + animal + corn + flower motifs, and all these motifs are known as the "gana" form

group 2 is the form from tree roots resembling the human form.

You have raised a doubt in respect of both these translations by identifying a deficiency in grammar. However, I believe that Guwaya is also a native speaker of German, and he seemed not to note this possibility of an alternate interpretation.

Earlier today I emailed Tim Rogers with several questions in respect of this translation, the answers to which, I believe will put the cap on this matter. When I receive a response I will advise.

As for corn-cob = gunungan, that might be another good question for investigation. When and where did this association first get aired?

guwaya

11th October 2010, 01:07 PM

Just to add a comment regarding the correct translation of Groneman's original:

In German, two different meanings seem to be possible and I have a really tough time to decide which may be the intended one.

Interpretation 1:
ukiran of human and animal form,
(ukiran) of jagung form (corn cobs or flowers called gana), and
also some tree roots resembling a human figure.

This may be the intended meaning but it would be only unequivocal if Groneman had completed the enumeration:
(ukiran) of human form (made from tree roots naturally resembling a human figure).
I feel Groneman avoided this more tedious writing for stylistic reasons but grammatically this is not correct (neither with nor without repeating the word ukiran).

Interpretation 2:
ukiran of the form of human and animal, and
ukiran of the form of jagung (corn) cobs or flowers which are called gana (as is also true for some tree-roots resembling a human figure).

For this interpretation there is the crucial "and" missing: In German, one would have expected a "sowie" for stylistic reasons. A word can go missing in print but in this case it doesn't appear to be a printer's error since there's no punctuation mark (i. e. comma) in front of an "und" or "sowie" in German. Still, it could be an enumeration of just 2 alternatives separated only with an ideosyncratic comma...

What are the Dutch grammar rules for enumerations since this was Groneman's language?

BTW, is the tree of life interpretation for the corn cob hilt type undisputed?

Regards,
Kai

Hello,

I think you are correct - even if reading just fluently in German there could be two interpretation:

There are ukiran in form of jagung or flowers which are called gana

1. and additional there are ukiran made from tree-roots resembling the human figure (seperately from gana).

2. as well as ukiran made from tree-roots resembling the human figure (also called gana)

Anyway, I think, just because Gronemans motherlanguage seemed to have been Dutch it makes no sense to study the dutch grammer for clearing the general question here. It will not be possible to come to a 100% verified conclusion and only an assumption based on the different languages could be made which possibly could have leed to a misunderstanding. I am myself a Groneman fan but nobody is perfect and grammer mistakes are easily done - if they were done - who knows?! And who wants to decide this - after which criteria?

It seems that the use of gana is only to read at Groneman (the others took it from Groneman) and that it is not confirmed by other researchers upon own researches. If this is the fact, the use of the term gana will always have to be used with a questionmark or with the hint to Groneman's reference.

Regards

A. G. Maisey

11th October 2010, 01:11 PM

Thank you Guwaya.

It seems we can have an alternate interpretation.

Let's see what sort of answer I get back to my questions.

And here is the online translation:-

"In the Kraton of Jogjakarta who have panakawan (serving young noblemen, pages) if they Bared chest and feathered hair ornaments, without a headscarf appear (Gatete semut) ukiran in the form of human and animal figures, in the form of djagung (corn) ear or flowers. the gana be called, as well as some of the human image resembling tree Wurzen."

which seems to come down on the side of Richardus/Rogers, and Guwaya's original tranalation.

David

11th October 2010, 01:49 PM

In the interpretations of both Guwaya and Richardus/Rogers there is a clear separation between two groups of hilt forms:-

group 1 is the human + animal + corn + flower motifs, and all these motifs are known as the "gana" form

group 2 is the form from tree roots resembling the human form.
Actually Alan, from the translations i am reading here i would say that there a are three distinct groups being discussed. There is a comma to seperate each group, at least in everyones translations. First after the human/animal hits, then the corn or flower hilts also called gana, as well as some tree-roots resembling the human figure.
That seems like three groups to me and the natural root hilts seem to have been mistakenly lumped in with the corn/flower hilts known as gana.

:shrug:

A. G. Maisey

11th October 2010, 09:36 PM

Yes David, I agree with you, it could be read the way you are reading it.

Apparently in the original, it can also be read as Kai and Guwaya have suggested, in another way, which includes the root form hilts as gana.

I have not the smallest understanding of German, I can only look at the translations, so possibly this has now become a job for a professional translator.

The reason I say this is because on the two occasions in the past where I was involved in a legal matters which hinged on translations I discovered that a professional translator does not look at a single passage out of the context of an entire work written by the same person. In judging the intended meaning of a passage, or even a word, the professional will not necessarily stick strictly with a grammatically correct reading, but will take account of the manner in which the writer expresses himself.

I have had a response from Tim, who has advised me that Peter Richardus did the translation from the original German text, and that he (Tim) checked Peter's English and any passages about which he had doubts, back to the original German. It would seem that this translation has full integrity and perhaps may be able to accepted as correct. However, Tim has undertaken to do further checking, and he will get back to me when the matter is beyond doubt.

Henk

11th October 2010, 10:32 PM

Gentlemen,

A very interesting discussion developed after the translation made by Detlef. A rather good translation that matched very well with the translation Alan made with the online translator. But i understand the confusion and misunderstanding that appeared.

I'm Dutch and that makes me a native speaker. I will try to translate literally this part.

"Dr. Groneman vermeldt in zijn studie over de kris, dat in den Kraton van Djokja grepen worden gedragen in mensch- of diergestalte, in den vorm van een djagoengkolf (d.i. mais). of van bloemen, die gana genoemd worden, of ook wel boomwortels zooals bijv. op No. 25, die de menschelijke gestalte weergeven."

Dr. Groneman reports in his study about the keris, that in the Kraton of Djokja ukirans are carried in human- or animalshape, in the shape of a djagoengcob (this is maize). or flowers, wich are called gana, or also from treeroots like for instance on number 25, that reproduce the human shape.

As i read and interpret the Dutch part David made the right conclusion.
1 human- or animalshape
2 djagoengcob (this is maize). or flowers, gana
3 treeroots that reproduce the human shape

A. G. Maisey

11th October 2010, 10:55 PM

Thank you Henk.

I have no problem with accepting three divisions, or two divisions, or in fact any number of divisions, I do have a problem with accepting universal inclusion.

The crux of the matter is whether the word "gana" can refer to the naturally occurring tree root hilts. From what I've seen so far, I don't think it can, but Kai has raised a valid possibility, and this has been endorsed by Guwaya.

I have referred the text back to one of the original translators, and he has undertaken to carry out further checking.

Hopefully we will be able to resolve this area of doubt.

kai

12th October 2010, 12:10 AM

Hello Alan,

In the interpretations of both Guwaya and Richardus/Rogers there is a clear separation between two groups of hilt forms:-

group 1 is the human + animal + corn + flower motifs, and all these motifs are known as the "gana" form
This is definitely wrong (based on German grammar):
The human and animal forms cannot be associated with the name gana.

BTW, corn cob or flower are alternative descriptions for something perceived by Groneman as a single hilt type (he utilized "or" rather than "and"). I assume flowers refer to the more florally carved examples of this "corn cob" hilt type.

As for corn-cob = gunungan, that might be another good question for investigation. When and where did this association first get aired?
Ok, well after the 15th century, for sure. :)

I'll let someone else start a seperate thread on this topic though...

Regards,
Kai

kai

12th October 2010, 12:39 AM

Hello Guwaya,

There are ukiran in form of jagung or flowers which are called gana
Just to add a bit of confusion for all of us: It is possible that gana only refers to flowers. As stated above, Groneman treats them together with corn cobs as a single hilt type though.

Anyway, I think, just because Gronemans motherlanguage seemed to have been Dutch it makes no sense to study the dutch grammer for clearing the general question here. It will not be possible to come to a 100% verified conclusion and only an assumption based on the different languages could be made which possibly could have leed to a misunderstanding
Yes, there definitely is some ambiguity in the cited text and we won't be able to resolve the intended meaning with certainty. By analyzing Groneman's publications for writing style, etc. as well as taking contemporary Dutch and German grammar into account, we may be able to define probabilities for the intended meaning but IMHO we won't be able to resolve the question for sure.

It seems that the use of gana is only to read at Groneman (the others took it from Groneman) and that it is not confirmed by other researchers upon own researches. If this is the fact, the use of the term gana will always have to be used with a questionmark or with the hint to Groneman's reference.
Yes, I agree: Unless we find an additional early field report, it seems best to just stop utilizing the word gana since it's meaning at the early 20th c. Yogya keraton is ambiguous and hasn't been independently verified, anyway.

I am myself a Groneman fan but nobody is perfect and grammer mistakes are easily done - if they were done - who knows?! And who wants to decide this - after which criteria?
There is something at odds here, grammatically. Just for fun, I'll check back with linguists to verify.

Regards,
Kai

Sajen

12th October 2010, 12:50 AM

Thank you Detlef, and my apologies.

This error has been corrected.

Nothing to apologize! :)

BTW, I have read the original german text posted by guwaya again and again and think to be sure that Groneman write about three different hilt/ukiran forms:

1. ukiran in form of human or animal shape
2. ukiran in form of corn cobs or flowers (called gana)
3. ukiran from tree roots resemble the human shape

since he has done a enumeration following the german grammar in my humble opinion. So I am with Henk who read the netherlands text in the same manner.

Detlef

A. G. Maisey

12th October 2010, 01:14 AM

Kai, as I have already said, I know nothing of German, thus I can only understand what is written in English.

If you tell us that in German what has been written is difficult to be be certain of, if Guwaya recognises that it can be read in a couple of different ways, if Detlef needs to read the same text several times to come to a clear understanding, and if David can find an alternative understanding in the English translation, with which I agree, I really do think that our attempts to clarify this matter have gone well beyond our abilities. I consider that this has become a job for a certified translator, not a linguist, that is to my understanding a separate field again, but a translator, preferably one who specialises in legal translations.

Hopefully when I get complete feedback from Tim Rogers and through him from Peter Richardus, we may have something that we can accept without confusion.

Hopefully.

Edit

It has occurred to me that my "--- not a linguist---" above could be misunderstood as a rejection.

Its not.

I feel that at this point any expert opinion must carry more weight than our opinions, however in accordance with my understanding, and my understanding could be in error, a linguist is one who studies one or more languages and can specialise in a particular aspect of language, whereas a translator is one who reproduces in a language other than the original, the intent of the writer in the original language.

This is why I keep harping on the "certified translator" theme.

Kai, if you have access to relevant linguists, I am certain that we would welcome their opinions.

kai

12th October 2010, 07:53 AM

And here is the online translation:-

"In the Kraton of Jogjakarta who have panakawan (serving young noblemen, pages) if they Bared chest and feathered hair ornaments, without a headscarf appear (Gatete semut) ukiran in the form of human and animal figures, in the form of djagung (corn) ear or flowers. the gana be called, as well as some of the human image resembling tree Wurzen."

which seems to come down on the side of Richardus/Rogers, and Guwaya's original tranalation.
Nah, garbled and missing words, etc. :rolleyes:

I guess we can agree that automatic translations will only help to muddle waters in cases where native speakers are struggling to dissect a complicated text.

Not wanting to be too pedantic - just to avoid misconceptions.

Regards,
Kai

kai

12th October 2010, 08:14 AM

Hello David,

from the translations i am reading here i would say that there a are three distinct groups being discussed. There is a comma to seperate each group, at least in everyones translations.
The use of a comma is different in German and English and in this case just doesn't help to solve the issue (it's necessary to seperate this part of the sentence: "die gana genannt werden").

Regards,
Kai

kai

12th October 2010, 08:25 AM

Hello Alan,

on the two occasions in the past where I was involved in a legal matters which hinged on translations I discovered that a professional translator does not look at a single passage out of the context of an entire work written by the same person. In judging the intended meaning of a passage, or even a word, the professional will not necessarily stick strictly with a grammatically correct reading, but will take account of the manner in which the writer expresses himself.
Yes, but unless Groneman can be shown to always utilize the same stylistic "trick" this will only help to establish probabilities of what he meant to write rather than a clear case for any of the possibilities.

BTW, in this case, the sentences preceeding and following the one under discussion don't seem to bear any relevance to clear up his passing remark on the word gana, does it?

Regards,
Kai

kai

12th October 2010, 08:30 AM

Hello Henk,

"Dr. Groneman vermeldt in zijn studie over de kris, dat in den Kraton van Djokja grepen worden gedragen in mensch- of diergestalte, in den vorm van een djagoengkolf (d.i. mais). of van bloemen, die gana genoemd worden, of ook wel boomwortels zooals bijv. op No. 25, die de menschelijke gestalte weergeven."

Dr. Groneman reports in his study about the keris, that in the Kraton of Djokja ukirans are carried in human- or animalshape, in the shape of a djagoengcob (this is maize). or flowers, wich are called gana, or also from treeroots like for instance on number 25, that reproduce the human shape.

Thanks! However, since this is a secondary source (and a loose translation of Groneman's account), this won't help to decide on the original meaning.

Just to see a keris again with this thread: Could you possibly post a pic of Figure 25, please? :)

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey

12th October 2010, 08:55 AM

guwaya

12th October 2010, 09:48 AM

Kai, I'm not prepared to discuss, nor to debate the professional skills of accredited or sworn translators.

This is not my area of expertise. My skills are concerned with identifying a deficiency and seeking the right advice from the right person to correct that deficiency. In this case there would appear to be a deficiency in the original text produced by Gronemann. This text was probably produced in the late 19th century, or early 20th century, so what we need is a translator, or perhaps as you suggest, a linguist who is skilled in understanding the idiosyncrasies of the German language during that period of time. We need a professional who can swear that his translation does reflect the intent of the writer.

Now, I have no idea at all how a translator is able to do this, but I have seen them get up in a court of law and so swear, and I have seen that sworn evidence accepted by all concerned.

In this matter there is only one thing to be clarified, I believe, and that is this:-

did Groneman intend the word "gana" to be applied to root-form hilts ?

Yes?

No?

or

Maybe?

That's all we need to know to put this matter to sleep.

I have already made enquiries that I hope will give us a definite result, but I am sure that we would welcome any contribution to the resolution of this question that you may be able to bring to the table.

I support A. G. Maisey's proposal to put the matter to sleep, otherwise this theme will be "discussed" in best German (and Dutch?) tradition for the next weeks without a result and with loosing the red wire. A "Maybe" should be enough for the moment and I like to stop here with a hint to my formerly made statement:

"It seems that the use of gana is only to read at Groneman (the others took it from Groneman) and" - independently from the exact translation of Gronemn's statement - the use of gana "is not confirmed by other researchers upon own researches. If this is the fact, the use of the term gana will always have to be used with a questionmark or with the hint to Groneman's reference."

Thanks

A. G. Maisey

12th October 2010, 10:56 AM

I agree Guwaya, that currently we have a "maybe" situation, but all avenues of enquiry have not yet been exhausted. I have contacted one of the original translators for the English edition of Groneman, and he has undertaken to pursue this matter. Kai has suggested that he may be able to obtain an opinion from one or more linguists. Then there are the other avenues of enquiry that have not yet been mentioned. I feel that eventually we will obtain a definite answer to this question.

But for the time being, yes, its a "maybe".

Sajen

12th October 2010, 05:18 PM

Just to see a keris again with this thread: Could you possibly post a pic of Figure 25, please? :)

Hello Kai,
go to # 146, there you'll find the picture! ;)

Regards,

Detlef

Henk

12th October 2010, 07:31 PM

I read the German part wich is the original statement of dr. Groneman.
The German part is identical to the translated part in Dutch. I speak, write and understand the German language very well.

In my opinion we have not a maybe but a definitive no. Dr. Groneman did not intend the word "gana" to be applied to root-form hilts in this part of his statement.

But....... the citate of J.G. Huyse is refering to something that has the look of leloehoer-statues called gana-gana where gana is refering to the representing of the human shape. But the citate doesn't mention a hilt from treeroot.

A. G. Maisey

21st October 2010, 10:18 PM

I previously advised that I had requested assistance in the gaining of clarification of Groneman's text, from one of the original translators into English.

This translator is Timothy Rogers of Oxford. He has conducted a thorough investigation of this troublesome passage, in both the German and Dutch versions, including consultation with a professional translator in German and Dutch, and he has provided me with the following findings:-

1)--- the original German is grammatically flawed and is ambiguous

2)--- it is possible for the word "gana" to refer to all the hilt types mentioned, or to only one hilt type, possibly only to the type mentioned as flowers.

3)--- an interpretation is often a matter of taking a decision in respect of the most likely probability.

4)--- the most likely probability in this case is that the word "gana" in this passage refers to both corn cobs and flowers, and does not refer to humans, animals, nor hilts made from tree roots resembling humans.

5)--- both the Huyser version of this text, and the English version of the text favour the interpretation that "gana" refers only to the corn cob/flower type of hilt.

6)--- it is likely that because of the grammatically flawed German this passage has previously been misunderstood and the name "gana" has been erroneously applied to the hilts made from tree roots resembling the human form.

I believe the findings as reported by Tim Rogers endorse the opinions of Kai and Guwaya, in respect of the ambiguity of the original German text, but they have provided the perspective of a professional point of view in respect of intended meaning.

Based upon this, I am of the opinion that the name "gana" has been used in error for a very long time. Dr. Groneman's misunderstood text has seen this name applied to hilts of various materials that have been formed by nature, rather than by man. In fact, Dr. Groneman's initial reference was only to hilts coming from tree roots, and which resembled the human form. He did not intend the name "gana" to be applied to this type of hilt.

Dr. Groneman's text can no longer be employed as legitimisation for the erroneous use of this term"gana".