Pesh Kabz or ?? Tks for help

[Dom]

Good day Gentlemen
sorry if I'm almost absent, but countries visited aren't too much offering internet connections facilities ... ;)

in Isfahan (Iran) I got this knife, but difficulty to identifiy it
your precious help is required, thanks per anticipation

à +

Dom

[fernando]

A very nice looking item Dom,
Nice steel, nice marks.
Not a pesh kabz, i would say.
With that peculiar blade point ... would it actualy be a weapon ? :confused: .
Certainly the experts will ID this piece.
I will hopefuly expect so.
Fernando

[Lew]

It looks Afghan to me but I have a big problem with tip it is totally non functional and it even looks like it was pinned on? The steel looks acid etch to me also.

[Atlantia]

I like it a lot.
It almost looks to me like a european piece that has been altered to have the 'ring splitter' added, making it more like a similarly 'armed' persian kard.
I also agree with Lew that my first impression of the patterning was 'added'.
Also, is that a 'frog button' on the scabbard?

[Henk]

Although it is not my field at all, i like this one very much. Don't know how this kind of dagger is called but the tip is certainly for piercing armor.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2942

Found this one on oriental arms. As far as I know they don't have problems with placing the link here.

Nice find.

[fernando]

... but the tip is certainly for piercing armor. ...
Nah. not the same thing :o

-

[Dom]

Good Day
thanks a lot to every body for the collaboration
from my side I may add some comments
presently, I'm in Aleppo (Syria) and yesterday I met a Syrian friend, blacksmith, specialist in restoration of islamic blades, Rimon from Damascus for those knows him
- the item is a "composit"
1) blade is oldest than the grip, may be XVII or XVIIIth
2) the scabbard, looks XIXth
3) the blade is without contest "JOAR" not "acid etch"
4) the "tip" may be have been added century ago, but at evidence, not recently

the general impression is a weapon for "action" not for "display" and definitively not a "tourist trap" :p

today, we are on way to Damascus, may be some discovert ??
and to leave some knifes to be refurbished
and then we will reach Cairo - Egypt, in 4 or 5 days
where any one should visit us, are welcome, I will be their guide inside the souks ;)

à +

Dom

[Henk]

Nah. not the same thing :o

-

Fernando, it is not the same thing, but the tip has the same meaning.

[Gavin Nugent]

It is the thrird such hilt of this construction that I have seen in the last 12 months and all appeared to have very nice age to them. All were Kards with scabbards that enveloped the hilt. I am sure I have images on file of one because I wanted to buy it for my personal collections. One scabbard was basic timber and old leather and the one I wanted was a scabbard of unusual form in that it was silver with Niello script on the reverse, I will try to find it as perhaps the script will offer a better indication of origins.

Gav

[Lew]

Good Day
thanks a lot to every body for the collaboration
from my side I may add some comments
presently, I'm in Aleppo (Syria) and yesterday I met a Syrian friend, blacksmith, specialist in restoration of islamic blades, Rimon from Damascus for those knows him
- the item is a "composit"
1) blade is oldest than the grip, may be XVII or XVIIIth
2) the scabbard, looks XIXth
3) the blade is without contest "JOAR" not "acid etch"
4) the "tip" may be have been added century ago, but at evidence, not recently

the general impression is a weapon for "action" not for "display" and definitively not a "tourist trap" :p
today, we are on way to Damascus, may be some discovert ??
and to leave some knifes to be refurbished
and then we will reach Cairo - Egypt, in 4 or 5 days
where any one should visit us, are welcome, I will be their guide inside the souks ;)

à +

Dom


Dom

What does JOAR mean? I really do not think this is wootz and I not think this is laminated steel. Can you post a close up picture of the spine of the blade I am looking for signs of lamination along the back of the blade. Before I started collecting antiques I spent time at many Damascus steel forging seminars and this blade just does not look right to me?

[fernando]

Fernando, it is not the same thing, but the tip has the same meaning.

Certainly Henk,
I meant efectiveness.
This one looks (to me) more like a decorative addition :o .

[Lew]

Here is something interesting concerning Joar.

http://books.google.com/books?id=XgcAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=JOAR+steel&source=bl&ots=PfyDDDpUZ-&sig=kcSM1kMRokKXhNO4o8g-HpfnLI4&hl=en&ei=n3ZVTPDPMIL68AaevID_BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=JOAR%20steel&f=false

[Henk]

Certainly Henk,
I meant efectiveness.
This one looks (to me) more like a decorative addition :o .

Fernando,
You could be very right. As i mentioned before it isn't my field at all. I remembered seeing such tips before. ;)

[olikara]

Dom

What does JOAR mean?

Lew,
I think Dom means 'Jauhar'.

Nidhi

[Lew]

Lew,
I think Dom means 'Jauhar'.

Nidhi

Nidhi

Jauhar is described as this?

All over India, the earliest dated 510 ce. Women sometimes suffered immolation before their husbands’ expected death in battle, in which case the burning was called jauhar

[katana]

Hi Nidhi,
'Jauhar' seems to mean a form of ritual suicide......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jauhar

I think the spelling may be Jawhar....

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3DE2wSgUpYEJ:www.kuwaitembassy-russia.com/islamic.html+Jawhar+blade&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Picture caption on the left hand side


....Or possibly Johar....

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?p=681778

Regards David

[Rick]

Here is something interesting concerning Joar.

http://books.google.com/books?id=XgcAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=JOAR+steel&source=bl&ots=PfyDDDpUZ-&sig=kcSM1kMRokKXhNO4o8g-HpfnLI4&hl=en&ei=n3ZVTPDPMIL68AaevID_BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=JOAR%20steel&f=false

I think Lew may have hit upon it .

If I'm seeing the blade correctly it looks as if the pattern material is laid on a steel core . :shrug:

The pattern is way too random and complex to be a faked surface IMO .

[Dom]

Dom

What does JOAR mean?
there is no fixed spelling in European letter fot transposition of Arabic word (writing) to European word
only the pronunciation of national alphabet make a difference
e.i. "Joar" in French should be writing ; Djouar
but we are not here to play with .. semantic :p
when it's pronounced in Arabic the sound is near to
- JO'AR -

it's not with me, but in Paris,
in the Saudi book concerning Islamic blades, very good explanation of "Joar" ... Djouar, "Jauar" "Jawhar"

arrived in Cairo today :p

à +

Dom

ps/ I get an other "Joar", but contemporary fabrication, purchased from a blacksmith (reputed) in Bukhara - Uzbekistan ... pics soon

[Tatyana Dianova]

Here is another kard from the same family. The handle is decorated with copper, messing, dark horn, walrus (?) ivory. The blade is pretty heavy and thick (6 mm). OAL 42 cm.
I have found the similar style dagger from the North Afghanistan in the collection of Kurt Gull (Hermann Rudolph "Der Turkmenenschmuck"). It is second from the top.
Dom, maybe you can read the cartouche?

[kai]

Hello Dom,

This is not wootz but I bet an etch will prove this to be several rows of twist core - nice catch, for sure!

With the Afghan/Usbek? attribution it would be not too surprising to see these more often during the last years, I guess...

Regards,
Kai

[ariel]

I checked a Russian book by V.N. Popenko " Cold Steel. Encyclopedic Dictionary" ( ugly translation, but as close to the original as I could, for the sake of precision)
Here is a picture of an identical one, illustrated as a typical example of a Turkmen one. Second from the top.
Hope it helps.

[Dom]

Dom, maybe you can read the cartouche?BIG BIG Thanks Tatyana, to have found an identification for my knife
unfortunately, the cartouche will remain (for me) illegible
it's too much damaged to read something :(

à +

Dom

[Dom]

This is not wootz but I bet an etch will prove this to be several rows of twist core Hi Kai

AN ETCH :confused: :eek: :confused:

this knife it's not an item of "Cour" either for parade or display,
not luxurious at all :p
it looks much more a weapon for honest warrior, no more

how spent time (and money) by etching ...
even the thickness of the blade (at back) ?? by engravings at the size of a hair

the pictures have been took with a "macro numeric function"
this increases wrongly the size of blade
the real dimensions are
46 cm overall
blade 29,50 cm only
without heel 8cm and 4,50cm for the tip
the blade is from 4,50cm to 3,50cm wide
and, from 0,50 cm to 0,30 cm thickness
your etches ;) less than a 1/10mm

no offence, but your interesting suggestion seems a bit random, no? :o

with my best regards

à +

Dom

[Dom]

Here is a picture of an identical one, illustrated as a typical example of a Turkmen one. Second from the top.
Hope it helps.Thank you "ariel"
you are confirm that, where I found it, at Ispahan's - Central Asia, it was coming from not too far :D

all the best

à +

Dom

[kai]

Hello Dom,

That's certainly a decent enough size for a knife.

I guess you misunderstood me: I was not proposing that the pattern was "faked" by wax "artwork" and acid etching.

IMHO this kard isn't made from wootz steel (I reckon that this is what "joar" specifically refers to in the Near/Middle East, isn't it?). However, I am positive that this is a really nice pattern-welded blade: it obviously has several rows of twistcore (often referred to as "turkish ribbon" but I don't know the Arabic name for this pattern).


this knife it's not an item of "Cour" either for parade or display,
not luxurious at all :p
it looks much more a weapon for honest warrior, no more
Well, it certainly was also a piece of pride for his owners (judging from the decorated hilt, etc.). And since twistcore is a bit weaker than randomly pattern-welded steel and a lot of effort and skill is needed to craft such a "turkish ribbon" blade, I feel certain to assume that the pattern was meant to be visible/shown. I don't know which type of etching would have traditionally been done on pattern-welded blades in central Asia to reveal the pattern but would guess that they utilized the same routine as with wootz blades. However, for keeping the pattern visible the owner would hardly need more than continue utilizing the knife and cut a fruit once in a while...

I don't know wether you can find someone in Cairo who could give this blade an etch (and is knowlegdeable enough to trust with working on an antique blade). If not, I'm quite sure that you can do this yourself: Thoroughly clean the blade with hot water and a strong detergent (a hard toothbrush and toothpaste or kitchen cleaning powder/cream may help to get gunk out of crevices), wipe the still hot (and wet) blade with a lime fruit (or rather cut it several times to work both sides at once), rinse with plenty of water (I prefer hot diluted vinegar), flick fluid off the blade (when working outside) and wipe off remaining moisture with an well-oiled rag; thoroughly dry with a hair dryer. If the contrast is not strong enough when rinsing, try another cleaning and etching cycle or two...

Before starting the whole process it's advisable to protect the hilt as much as feasible - a bit of wax and some sticky tape usually does the job.

Regards,
Kai

[delor]

Kai, you're right. I was just going to post the same remark.

I have made a few contrast enhancements on the photo. One can clearly see :
- twisted pattern
- welding lines

This is obviously a nice pattern welded blade. Would really like to see it re-etched !

[kai]

Any news, Dom?

This is how it will look like... :)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=66243&stc=1

Regards,
Kai

[Dom]

Any news, Dom?

This is how it will look like... :)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=66243&stc=1

Regards,
KaiHi "kai"
no to much time to do the manipulation, and now we are in Paris
in Damascus, the blade has been cleaned, and I took 2 pic's
- one for the surface
- one for the thikness
the specialist told me that, it was à nice "johar" ??

definitely, it's not the type of wootz what the picture from "Oriental-Arms" shown

I bought from Boukhara (Uzbekistan) a knife, with the same wootz steel,
it's a new made production, and I didn't be very impressed, just to come back with a "souvenir"
I will prepare a post about it

à +

Dom

[delor]

Might be a multi bar pattern welded damascus, certainly not wootz steel.
Seing the photos of the whole blade makes me wonder whether it might be some fake etched pattern. The details look real but the whole think doesn't feel right.Should definitly be cleaned end re-etched on a small sample part.

[Dom]

It looks Afghan to me but I have a big problem with tip it is totally non functional and it even looks like it was pinned on? The steel looks acid etch to me also.Hi Lew
to clarify for you, "the tip totally non functional" as you point of view
if the tip who chocked you, has been added on my "Pesh Kabz"
I found a "Wootz Kard" probably Circa 1800 with that type of tip, to pierce mailcoat ...
tip not added, the blade was forged like that (beautiful wootz) :D

ps/pictures issued from "Akaal Arms" catalog

Best Regards

à +

Dom

[ALEX]

Lew wins :p These tips are different structurally, one on Persian Kard is meant for reinforcement/piercing, the other has a decorative purpose and was not meant to pierce anything hard/metal. Dom, please do not try, it'll snap below the tip:-)

[Lew]

Hi Dom

You are correct the example shown at the bottom was forged as an integral part of the tip with the proper taper and and shape which is like a flattened triangle.

The one you have seems round and eckhorned shaped with a rivet through it. This could have been a later repair.
:shrug: