Unusual Balkan? Dagger

[Atlantia]

Thought you gentlemen might like to see this one. I'm assuming its balkan, but the handle has an almost caucus look to it. Scabbard has a leather cover which if you look closely you can see the outlines of the steel mounts top and bottom through the leather:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/Battlestar_Atlantia/IM000439.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/Battlestar_Atlantia/IM000440.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/Battlestar_Atlantia/IM000443.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/Battlestar_Atlantia/IM000436.jpg

[Lew]

This does not strike me as Balkin seems Greek maybe Crete? Still I really like it.

Congrats

[Atlantia]

This does not strike me as Balkin seems Greek maybe Crete? Still I really like it.

Congrats
Hi Lew
Thanks mate, I do like it :)
The handle shape has me puzzled a bit. I'd even considered Russian.
Best
Gene

[Devadatta]

Hello,

100% not Russian

I also think that's Cretan

[Atlantia]

Hello,

100% not Russian

I also think that's Cretan

LOL, I did say I'd 'considered' it ;)
But why Crete? Isn't the hilt form wrong?

[Lew]

Actually this is not from crete looking at the small studs on the hilt and that tiny brass sleeve by the choil I think this could be Bosnian?

[Dmitry]

Just a small correction - it's knife, not a dagger. :)

[Rick]

:confused:

[Atlantia]

Just a small correction - it's knife, not a dagger. :)

Potato, potAto ;)

[Atlantia]

:confused:
Hi Rick,
Where's that one hail from?
Is anyone an aficionado of the extended 'Bichaq' family's finer nuances around here?

[Rick]

Hi, it's purported to be Bosnian IIRC .
Note the metal studs . :shrug:

My only Bichaq . :o

A nice link on this :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4817&highlight=bichaq

[Atlantia]

Hi Rick,
We're kinda back to where I started with it :confused: Balkan (possibly) but the hilt is of a type I've not seen on these.
The ones in the thread you linky'd are not quite the same......
Any thoughts?
You have a nice example there, love the hilt shape.

[Dmitry]

Potato, potAto ;)

There's no difference between a knife and a dagger then...

[Atlantia]

There's no difference between a knife and a dagger then...

Well, for sure the vast majority of daggers are knives, and some knives are daggers ;)

Dictionary definitions seem fairly similar:
'Short pointed knife: a short pointed knife used as a weapon' (Encarta)
'Stabbing weapon with short pointed and edged blade' (Oxford)

Obviously the item in question IS a knife, but to me it goes without saying that it's a dagger also.
So either designation is technically correct in my view.

[eftihis]

Hallo friends,
As you can see from the photos bellow, this is a Greek knife. (not from Crete, but from mainland Greece).
These are fairly common knifes made untill recently, yet this kind of handle is atypical, (maybe a makers experiment or a creative inovation inspired from balkan "kamas".)
The first knife in the group photo has exactry the same design on blade as the one we are discussing. (photo n5)
The metal studs decoration exists in bosnian knifes, but is a simple kind of decoration that was obviously used in other places, like is happening with other simple kind of designs, like circles with dots etc...
The 6th photo has a stamped manufacturers name who is "Pourikas Larissa".
"Pourikas" is the makers name and "Larissa" the main city of the Thessalia area in the middle part of Greece. And searching the makers name in this city's telephone directory, it came out as "Pourikas E. cutting tools" ... Propably the maker's son or grandson.
In the 7th photo, the "Made in Greece" inscription is self explanatory...
Finally, the 8th photo has an example with the the date 1934 on it.
Judging from the scabbard, i would say that your knife was made after the war, arround 1950s-1960s.
Regards to all!

[Dmitry]

Well, for sure the vast majority of daggers are knives, and some knives are daggers ;)

Dictionary definitions seem fairly similar:
'Short pointed knife: a short pointed knife used as a weapon' (Encarta)
'Stabbing weapon with short pointed and edged blade' (Oxford)

Obviously the item in question IS a knife, but to me it goes without saying that it's a dagger also.
So either designation is technically correct in my view.

This "piece" has one cutting edge. Therefore it is a knife, not a dagger.

[Atlantia]

Eftihis
Thank you :) Thats a nice selection that you have there.
The top one in your pictures (with the same blade) also shares the steel top and bottom to the scabbard that mine has. Is it possible that some of yours started out with leather covers too?

[eftihis]

Hi Atlantia, the ones i have, have all their original scabbards. (They look to have the same age as the knife), and it seems that this was the way they made them. But ofcourse a customer can ask a knife maker to make something different if he likes.

[Atlantia]

This "piece" has one cutting edge. Therefore it is a knife, not a dagger.

Many daggers are single edged, how is that relevant?
If it's purpose is also or solely to be used as a stabbing weapon, then it fits the criteria. Like a Kard, or a Tanto, or a Choora etc.
Also, if you really feel the need to re-open this symantics debate, would you mind starting a thread of your own so as to not derail this one.
I'll be happy to offer my opinion there. :)

[Atlantia]

Hi Atlantia, the ones i have, have all their original scabbards. (They look to have the same age as the knife), and it seems that this was the way they made them. But ofcourse a customer can ask a knife maker to make something different if he likes.

You can see why the hilt totally threw me off of the scent here ;)
Is it possible that it represents a specific area of manufacture, or do you think it is definately just an 'oddity' with no great relevance?
Thanks again for your help :)
Also Kudos to Lew, who nailed it straight off and Devadatta who came in close with Crete.

[eftihis]

I dont know if it is oddity, but i know is not the majority...
But in Greece as in Balkans also, we had the variations of "kinjal" type handle in many designs.

[Atlantia]

I dont know if it is oddity, but i know is not the majority...
But in Greece as in Balkans also, we had the variations of "kinjal" type handle in many designs.

Those are great! I love the fish emblem too.
Well, that explains the caucus style hilt.
Brilliant, thanks again :)

Do these have a specific name in Greek?

Also.... The leather of the scabbard has a distincly WW2 'feel' to it... if that makes any sense? It feels 'about that age', also the belt loop is about 6cm, like it was to fit a wide 'army' style belt.
Do you think that there is any chance that this could be from that era?

[eftihis]

We call them "ka'mas".
"ka'ma" is the word for one, "κa'mas" the plural.

[Atlantia]

We call them "kamas"
Brilliant! :D

[Rick]

Hi Rick,
We're kinda back to where I started with it :confused: Balkan (possibly) but the hilt is of a type I've not seen on these.
The ones in the thread you linky'd are not quite the same......
Any thoughts?
You have a nice example there, love the hilt shape.

See post #23 :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4817&highlight=bichaq
I think these are close enough, no ?


Ask the poster . :shrug:

[kronckew]

greece is of course part of the balkans....

Countries which are geographically fully located within the Balkan peninsula:

* Albania
* Bosnia and Herzegovina
* Bulgaria
* Greece
* Kosovo
* Macedonia
* Montenegro

Countries which are significantly located on the peninsula:

* Serbia (Central Serbia, partially Belgrade region; comprises around 2/3 of country's territory)
* Croatia (around 1/2 of overall territory)
* Slovenia (around 1/3 of overall territory)

Countries which are located mostly outside the peninsula:

* Romania (6% of its territory, comprising Northern Dobruja)
* Turkey (3% of its territory, comprising Eastern Thrace)
* Italy (small part around the city of Trieste)

[libra]

greece is of course part of the balkans....

Countries which are geographically fully located within the Balkan peninsula:

* Albania
* Bosnia and Herzegovina
* Bulgaria
* Greece
* Kosovo
* Macedonia
* Montenegro


Hi kronckew!
I would want to make a correction to your post my friend!
MACEDONIA is part of Greece and not οther country.They is a error that becomes very often.
The country that you mean is FYROM According UN,NATO and European Union!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FYROM
Thank you! :)

[Dmitry]

Many daggers are single edged, how is that relevant?


No single-edged daggers come to my mind at the moment. :shrug:

[eftihis]

Hi Kronckew, Greece is of course part of the Balkans, but do not make the assumption that countries and nations that exist in the same geographical area have necessary the same culture and characteristics.
Its like i am saying that US citizens and Mexicans are all "Americans".
Without making a lond speech, i want to say that countries of the Balkans share a common history being inside the same empires (Byzantine, Turkish and some of them Venetian), but there many differences especially when we come in the case of Greece, which being at the end of Balkan peninsula has great influences and a way of life affected by the Mediterranean sea, and by different historical circumstances. Our language is very different from the Slavic that many neigbors share, and also our culture and history.
So not all Greek things fit in the Balkan family, and not all Balkan things relate to Greece.

[kronckew]

of course the different countries and regions in the balkans have differing customs, artefacts and cultural histories some of which some areas share with others and some that are not. that's why they have different countries, languages, etc., even the names and sovereignty of some areas are disputed, but geographically they are all balkan, which is what i referred to. any current political differences are not germane to these older artefacts. some of the names we call the areas by may not have even existed at the time the topic's knife was made.

the knives of the whole area do seem, at least to my untutored eyes, to have certain similarities in basic shape, eared grips, etc and even in more details, that would not be found in south east asia. most of the area from istanbul to vienna was trod by the turkish armies at one point or another, and their edged weapons do seem to have affected local design standards, tho somewhat softened by the local non-turkish cultures...

ah, well, i think i'll head downstairs and sharpen my qama, and my texan bowie, it's american (maybe mexican, maybe US). ;)

p.s. - don't forget the canadians, they are americans too!

[eftihis]

Dear kronckew,
Thanks for accomodating our sensitivities!
I agree with all that you say, and indeed we share common designs because of common Turkish occupation.
And we fought in our war of revolution with Turkish weapons, just as Afgans fought Russians with AK-47.
The whole isssue comes from the fact that we Greeks feel that we have a lot of differences with our Balkan neighbors, and so we just dont like to be included in one group together with them, without first clarifying our differences!!! :)

[kronckew]

Greeks have always been prickly and get a tad disgruntled when other groups have tried to knock you down. you are still here. they aren't.

https://grhomeboy.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/spartans_tomb.jpg

Ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε
κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.

"Dic, hospes Spartae nos te hic vidisse iacentes,
Dum sanctis patriae legibus obsequimur."

Go tell the Spartans, thou who passeth by,
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie

i have borrowed that line to use in my signature on other fora, along with Μολὼν λαβέ ;).

greece is the fountainhead of western civilization and culture.

[Atlantia]

Hallo friends,
As you can see from the photos bellow, this is a Greek knife. (not from Crete, but from mainland Greece).
These are fairly common knifes made untill recently, yet this kind of handle is atypical, (maybe a makers experiment or a creative inovation inspired from balkan "kamas".)
The first knife in the group photo has exactry the same design on blade as the one we are discussing. (photo n5)
The metal studs decoration exists in bosnian knifes, but is a simple kind of decoration that was obviously used in other places, like is happening with other simple kind of designs, like circles with dots etc...
The 6th photo has a stamped manufacturers name who is "Pourikas Larissa".
"Pourikas" is the makers name and "Larissa" the main city of the Thessalia area in the middle part of Greece. And searching the makers name in this city's telephone directory, it came out as "Pourikas E. cutting tools" ... Propably the maker's son or grandson.
In the 7th photo, the "Made in Greece" inscription is self explanatory...
Finally, the 8th photo has an example with the the date 1934 on it.
Judging from the scabbard, i would say that your knife was made after the war, arround 1950s-1960s.
Regards to all!

Hello again Eftihis,

I've been considering your collection, and a question occurred to me.
What is the length range of the ones you have pictured? The proportions seem a little different from mine and I'm curious.
Thanks
Gene