Putting together a museum exhibit linking Java keris to Philippine kris

[Bill M]

A few months ago we had a visit from a patron and a museum curator. They were particularly impressed by the Javanese keris and the Philippine kris and asked us to put together an exhibit that will open August 15.

This has opened a fun, but challenging venue for Anne and myself. It has also made us realize that we are collecting in an area that the general public does not have a clue! FI, they got the idea that the Javanese were a "tribe" in the southern Philippines!

We realized that we need more information, maps. Where are the Philippines? Where is Java? Both in a world view and also in relationship to each other? What is the link(s) that places wavy bladed knives in both cultures?

We think we know a lot about our collections until we try to explain to interested, intelligent people who are ignorant of these cultures, but want to bring something of the beauty of these pieces of armor, spears, swords, shields, etc to the attention of the General Public. Who want to educate people about these cultures.

So we are asking your help. Opinions? How would you simply explain the basics? What would you say and how would you say it? Please realize that we are asking several questions.

A name for the exhibit? Thinking of calling it something like:
"The Elegance of Malice:" (subtitled) "From the talismans of Java to the Freedom Fighters of the Southern Philippines." (Anne's title)

This is quite and exercise in consciousness and can be a lot of fun. Very educational for us! Maybe get you to thinking about your collection and how much we take for granted that the average person knows about our objects.

[tom hyle]

Great! First off vis kris (I do not recognize any difference between the words keris and kris nor the swords, except as an internal variation of great complexity of which region is only one factor) waviness is a minor issue, relatively uncommon, and certainly not definitive. A kris is usually defined by its flared guard (gonjo ganga etc.) being a seperate piece from the blade, and with the purpose of containing the majic (of which cutting is only one aspect) in the blade for both safety reasons and to keep it enslaved/domesticated/whatever you want to call it; under control and use.
Technically kris-like swords without a seperate ganga are "iras ganga" "without ganga" and are not kris per se.
Kris per se is a very holy and magical weapon. It can only be used or carried by certain persons for certain purposes, etc. Kris-like weapons (tempius, matulis, parang this-n-that, gunong, etc.) exist throughout its range, which can be used by anyone for any purpose but handle like a kris, with its cut-n-thrust capability and its lovely forward curve.
Kris sundang ("Moro" kris) is not so different, though it is one of the largest types; there as sooooooo many types of kris.

[tom hyle]

There is a penninsular Malay form of kris sundang (Moros are a Malay group; most Malays, whether in the state of Malaysia, Philipines, Indonesia, etc. are moslems, or to say in Spainish "Moros" ie Mooroccans :o )
To the South there is a long kris called kris panjang (long kris; kris sundang may translate "warsword kris") which is often, probably falsely or exaggeratedly, associated with execution of Death sentences.
One rare type of Moro kris has a single edged often swell-tipped kampilanlike blade.
Where is Justin?

[tom hyle]

Most kris have a round- or oval-section tang, sometimes twisted. Such tang is generally viewed as speciallized for thrusting. In this regard, and well as the flared base so good for parries kris resembles the European "smallsword"
Kris sundang has a more robust (usually) rectangular-section tang, like an oceanic SE Asian cutting sword. Occasionally more modern ones (mid 20th+) have a nail-like tang a-la dha or tulwar. This seems a new and foreign influence.
Kris tangs are wedge-shaped.
Kris are meant to be removeable from their handles and other "dress" like Japanese swords are (The myth of Japanese isolation and uniqueness is highly overblown)

[tom hyle]

Moro swords (including bangkungs sometimes for instance) are sometimes bound to their handles by metal or fiber bindings that cross hooks or holes in the blade. These bindings are called asang or baca, and have long tangs themselves that are bound between the handle surface and its wrapping.
On kris sundang these are said to be to secure the ganga to the blade rather than the blade to the hilt. This does not seem correct to me though. Why the tangs? What about when they're on bangkungs? (bangkungs have no seperate ganga) other kris do not AFAIK have bacas/asangs. It is not a kris feature IMHO, but a Mindinao feature.

[tom hyle]

It is traditional with collectors in USA to speak as if the pommel on kris sundang were seperate from (and more interesting than) the handle. Usually if not always they are actually one piece of wood (etc.).

[tom hyle]

In addition to the iron ganga many kris (non-sundang) have a second, nonferous, round, drawn-on bolster that sits around the tang above the blade, below the handle (swords are spoken of in the "West" traditionally as if being worn; the point is the bottom; the pommel is the top) This ring is often jewelled and AFAIK its purpose is jewelry.

[tom hyle]

kris may be held by pinching the blade, and many have grooves for the fingers to engage. The kris becomes your finger, so to speak.

[tom hyle]

Please don't use the word malice. Death and War are mighty fine Gods. They are not about malice.

[tom hyle]

Is this the right forum? I think so, but can this thread by on the kris forum, too?

[Bill M]

Great response and good info, Tom. Let's "dumb it down" a bit for the average person. Right now they are not asking, for example, the difference in a Sulu Kris and one from Mindanao. But there are basic questions.....

Granted, a kris has a asymmetrical ganja. I have also heard it is a "cork in the bottle" to hold the Djinn/Spirit in the blade.

But, why does it look like that? Why Asymmetrical? Someone went to a LOT of work to make the ganja look like that. Why? What is the ritual where the Djinn is "invited" into the blade? How is the kris venerated? Ceremonies? Specifics? I know a little about the yearly ceremonies for Javanese (during Ramadan, would like some pictures BTW), but what about the PI Kris?

I know the answers to some of these, but I certainly have gaps (often LARGE gaps).

How did a person get qualified to be a kris holder?

When did a person decide to carry a kampilan instead of a kris? A Barong? Were barongs more regional, like Sulu, or were they carried (concealed) by a person who wanted to get in close to an enemy?

Were panabas weapons of choice for any group, or just an agricultural device that graduated to a "mop up" weapon after a battle to kill the wounded without accidentally hitting the ground with a better blade? And enforce Sharia law?

I am having a great time with this! Learning a flow, a big picture! Thanks again!

[tom hyle]

I'm a big-picture, flowing, sword-loving guy, but the Moro students and the "keris" crowd will probably, hopefully fill in a lot of details......

[Bill M]

Please don't use the word malice. Death and War are mighty fine Gods. They are not about malice.


The Curator and Executive Director like the title, but it is my decision. What would you suggest as a better overall title. I like "Elegance" but am very open.

BTW I am certainly fine with the Mods moving this thread to the Keris Forum, but this is really about much more than the kris. They are also interested in the people (PI and Java), other weapons, daily life, religion and talismans.

Most of this I see centered in a time period from about 1400-1500 until 1925-50, though I do like the picture of the keris guy on the scooter.

[tom hyle]

"Ellegance of Death?"

[tom hyle]

A bit of a pain for you, perhaps, but IMHO it should be a two-forum thread, and the keris forum would hook you up major detailed info, explanatory pictures, etc. It's not just for keris, but other tosan aji, et.

[Rick]

Hi Bill,

I'd suggest that what we are talking about here is a diaspora of the keris from its place of origin (Java) through travel and trade to the Philippines .

(see the Thai Kreis thread in the Warung)

It seems pretty likely the keris came to the Philippines with the Malays .

I'd suggest that questions about the keris be asked in the Warung and queries about the Moro kris be posted here (ethno) along with any conclusions drawn from the results of the information from both forums .

Some questions to explore might be the importance of pamor patterns in Moro krisses, and an exploration of the esoteric importance of the Moro version vs the Javanese or Malay . :shrug: :)

Here, I think, you may run into trouble with info from the Philippine side .
The Moro people were not much interested in the act of surrender .

Sadly much of this knowledge may have died with the men who were defending their faith and their lands in the 19th and early 20th centuries .

[tom hyle]

place of alleged origin (Java) This is a much-debated point, some even pointing to India for the origin of the kris.

[tom hyle]

I reiterate kris and keris are not truly two seperate forms. Kris sundang is a type of k[e]ris. In Standard Indonesian "keris" is pronounced "kris".

[tom hyle]

Here, I think, you may run into trouble with info from the Philippine side .
The Moro people were not much interested in the act of surrender . .

What do you mean "were"?

[kahnjar1]

place of alleged origin (Java) This is a much-debated point, some even pointing to India for the origin of the kris.
My two cents worth regarding origins.....Malaysia may not be the origin but the Kris figures prominantly on their National Coat of Arms, and also is used as a prominent part of the logo of Tourism Melaka, so one could assume that the Malays have some claim??

[Rick]

place of alleged origin (Java) This is a much-debated point, some even pointing to India for the origin of the kris.

Please .
Prove otherwise .

[Rick]

I reiterate kris and keris are not truly two seperate forms. Kris sundang is a type of k[e]ris. In Standard Indonesian "keris" is pronounced "kris".

We use this different spelling to make it clear which species of weapon form we are discussing, Tom .

[Rick]

What do you mean "were"?

Bud Dajo, Bud Bagsak, etc. .
Numerous other Cottas that were wiped out to the man woman and child ?
Warrior class Men, their Wives and Children ?
The people who carried these traditions ?

Mostly gone .

We digress ...

[tom hyle]

Please .
Prove otherwise .
I don't have any need to prove otherwise; I merely point out it is a far from settled matter. A simple search of these forums will show that to anyone. So you please; don't present your favored position as a settled matter.

[tom hyle]

We use this different spelling to make it clear which species of weapon form we are discussing, Tom .
And instead you thus make it obscure and confusing, creating a division that is largely invalid and that the natives of the region do not recognize. Indnesian and Malay books on kris tend to give kris sundang as a variant form like any other, for instance.

[tom hyle]

Bud Dajo, Bud Bagsak, etc. .
Numerous other Cottas that were wiped out to the man woman and child ?
Warrior class Men, their Wives and Children ?
The people who carried these traditions ?

Mostly gone .

We digress ...

You digress; I merely reply. Their descendants ain't started laying down yet, is my point.

[Bill M]

In this exhibition we are looking for links from Javanese (and Balinese) keris to PI kris.

I began studying the Javanese / Balinese keris a few years ago. I found an object of exquisite beauty and craftsmanship. I was (and still am) attracted to the spiritual nature. The blade and particularly the tang are relatively weak as a fighting piece.

It seemed much more a talisman and spiritual weapon than a battle piece.

I found it difficult to study the spiritual/religious nature of the keris. I learned, from a great teacher, about the construction, the metallurgy even the numerology, but an in depth understanding of the religious nature continues to elude me.

The Javanese keris continues to be the core of my Indonesian collection, followed by Balinese and then other areas.

A good friend Great grandfather was an American General in the PI in the late 1800s/early 190ss. In going though his effects they found three "blades" that turned out to be the genesis of my PI collection. A dagger, a kampilan and a kris (dual fuller twist core).

Here I found a massive spiritual blade that was also a combat weapon.

So we are thinking about showing the keris as having originally coming from India. There seems to be evidence to support this. Developing in Java and expanding to the other Indonesian islands -- as a talisman more than a fighting weapon. And being the genesis of the south Philippines kris and a principle weapon of these freedom fighters.

I am trying to make this as authentic as possible, but realize there is a lot of conflicting information and ideas with cadres firmly entrenched in their positions/opinions.

This exhibition is in a small museum in south Georgia. We are following an exhibit of cotton growing in the early 1900s. Boll weevils and the beginnings of mechanization. These patrons are our local audience.

The men will probably come to see the swords. The women to see the exhibits and jewel-like Javanese/Balinese keris.

This will not be an in-depth study with pages of information. Some text panels that first show world geography, then the regional geography, then pictures (like Magellan fighting for his life in the surf) and a kampilan in a case nearby.

We are not here to debate if the greneng has dha shaped carving, nor the position of the blumbangan.. Discussions like this are much more appropriate to this erudite forum, and I mean that last remark with great respect.

To me and Anne, this is a chance to refocus and reconnect with our collection of marvelous pieces. Hopefully to jump start our interest back into Indonesia and the Philippines. Our best pieces will not leave our home and vault, but maybe a few museum visitors will get a glimmer of places, people and things they have never seen before.

So from India to Indonesia to the battles of the south Philippines culminating with interviews with two PI Princesses I personally know - one from the lineage of Sultan Kuderat and the other from the lineage of Datu Utto.

I do have much larger museums asking for exhibits and this can also be a springboard for them.

So thank you all again for your help in this great project and lets keep it fun! And isn't it a major reason for being a collector to share your fun with others?

[tom hyle]

Kris tang is not weak. It is very sufficient to its purpose as a serious and deadly weapon, as in fact, and possibly at an earlier date than in Europe, an expression of what Burton called the Modern Sword; the sword for thrusting, cutting, and parrying. When you use a kris properly to fight no stress accrues across the tang, only along it. All cuts all thrusts all parries distribute the force along the tang when properly done. This is true in proper design and use of most swords worldwide, but kris is reall an epitome.
Not a weapon? What a weapon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

[tom hyle]

Oh, and please don'e ignore the Bugis. The Bugi kris is more like the Bali kris. Balinese are of native religion, not Moslems; their kris, their culture, is IMHO more "true" to the region. Is it more true to teh form? I dunno, but I gotta wonder.

[tunggulametung]

First of I think thread starter need to decide which area will be covered, the time frame and what weapon to include. From there on that will be more easy to move forward with description, photos, including putting a title to the exhibition.

Maybe you can limit by preparing a questions like:
1. Exclusive to Java & Southern Philippines or more area? (the more area the more work to do)
2. Ancient time to 50 years ago or up to recent time?
3. Exclusive to Javanese & Philippines Keris or to include other weapon? (the more weapon the more to do)
4. .... expand this as required

I also want to suggest that it is better to avoid complex description to present this to the general public. For example no need to name keris parts in the original language, like it is wise calling "metal overseath" rather than "pendok". You can surely prepare a diagram of keris parts to explain it further or even suggest a list of reading (book title) for those who wish to know more.

For keris, I think it is nice to include a map of distribution like one in Jensen's Krisdisk attached.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for keris and kris it's like football and soccer. I too have a question in mind why the Philippines kris needs to be saperated from their other brother, even to their closest cousin the Malay sundang. The modern area where it's agreed now is merely a colonial product. If it's just to differentiate, we can attribute the suggested origin like Moro kris, Sulu kris, Malay kris, Borneo kris, Javanese kris etc. I believe it's okay to call Kris or Keris according to one preference.

[tom hyle]

well said

[Bill M]

Tom, I did not mean to malign the Indonesian kris as a weapon, more to contrast it with the Moro. The Indonesian tang is small diameter and not usually well-fixed to the handle as compared to the PI / Moro kris.

This is because the handle of an Indonesian keris is made to be removed easily. I don't agree that these two weapons are anywhere near equal in a fight.

If you were in a sword fight, which one would you choose?

As far as the keris/kris question, I consider it a matter of convenience to identify the style of an Indonesian keris to the style of a Moro.

The Buginese keris are also important. My focus needs to revolve around what I have. FI I have two Buginese, while I have 62 Javanese and 23 Balinese. I also have a very few other keris.

Moro and environs, I have 71 kris. I mention these numbers to say that I have substantially more to choose from for this display. The museum patrons have never seen a keris/kris before. Don't want to confuse them with a lot of other keris styles. Big Picture.

Simple. Not going into specifics or pamor or dapor either. Just a comment or so about how a student might want a certain pattern while a merchant or military man might want a different pattern.

A few other weapons and working blades in a case with basic descriptions.


tunggulametung,
Right on with your questions and thank you so much for the diagram you posted.

As far as nomenclature, I may be best to stay with "Handle" and "scabbard" with a diagram showing native language of more specific parts for those viewers who might have an interest. Less confusing.

[tom hyle]

hmmmm....
The Indonesian kris tang is not well fixed in its handle because its current use in its culture is somewhat vestigial/ceremonial this does not comment on its use in older times. The connection is regularly updated; one almost never encounters and 18th C kris that hasn't been dressed and undressed many times, and yes, for the last 50 or 100 years with little concern for combat. This says nothing about the original mounting.
I am 5'8" 220# A malay is up to my nipple. I would in a fight prefer a sword of proper size to me. In sword using cultures swords are typically made to fit the user. This is not the only issue, of course (Moro Malays are also to my nipple in height, of course) but just to mention on thing you're not considering.
Consider that convenience and accuracy are often incompatible, re kris/keris.
I suggest at lest on Bugi kris, at least one Bali kris, at least one gunong, at least one "tempius" at least one matulis. What would be super cool is a Visayan (mounted) kris sundang. I bet some forum members might even loan you a piece or two if they can be properly assured the System won't try to steal them.
Using English terminology when speaking with English speakers is definitely best; I agree.

[apolaki]

Hello Mr. Tom Hyle,

I don't understand why you are referring to them as Moro malays because they are Filipino.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hello Mr. Tom Hyle,

I don't understand why you are referring to them as Moro malays because they are Filipino.
Hullo everybody :)

.....hmmm.... I think he is referring to their ethnic grouping, rather than their nationality. Anyway, questions on nationality would best be put to the tribes (both Muslim and non-Muslim) who now reluctantly embrace the 'Moro' label as this is a more recognizable term on the global stage, thereby increasing the chances of success in their aspirations.
Furthermore, not all Philippines tribes are of Malay stock.

Best,

[fernando]

Portuguese touched Jawa for the first time in 1512, after taking over Malaca.

We can read comments about local weapons, by period chroniclers:
(Strict translation)
Every Jaoa man, be him rich or poor, will have in his house cris and lance and dagger.
(Tomé Pires 1465-1524 or 40).

The crises (plural for cris) serve them as daggers serve for us; they bring scimitars like the Turks.
(Castanheda 1500-1559).

Concerning races:
(period terminology)
There were in Jawa gentiles and moors; the first inhabited the bush, the late inhabited the coast.
(Duarte Barbosa - 1521, among others).

From the XVI century Portuguese codice kept at Casanatence library, we can see in one of the famous water colours, that the peoples of the Kingdom of Jawa (Jaoa) were called Jaos (at least) by the portuguese.

Fernando

.

[tom hyle]

Every man of them in his house, yes, but that didn't mean, for instance, slaves, who I don't think could even dare touch a cris Unless kriss (my actual preferred spelling which I usually keep to my self) was not yet seen as holy at that time? Which I hardly suspect. Note the orientation of the handle in the picture. What does this backward orientation mean in modern times? Peace, I think.?.... Do I digress? :D
Has everyone read that parang ihlang thread? Super duper wow!!!
BTW re other Moro weapons CharlesS' latest comment/speculation about my pira is exactly spot-on correct and an impressive bit of photo analysis. :D
I can;'t reply; I can only edit; you believe whatever about where it came frrom; I reiterate I have no interest in convincing you; none at all; I have no particular belief on the origin of the kris; I objectively point out it is nhot a settloed matter. It is a mystery.
Where do I get my ideas? Natives, long-term foreigners/inmigrants to the region, swords, scholars, collectors, makers, books, internet, God. How about you?
And a slave is nbot a common man, nor may be some types oif holy men, unholy men, foreigners, etc......I don't think a slave was to carry a kris; do you? A knife, yes (a slave without a knife isn't much use to his master); a dagger or sword under at least some circumstances and tribes, but a kriss? Do you think so? What's your evidence?

[David]

I don't have any need to prove otherwise; I merely point out it is a far from settled matter. A simple search of these forums will show that to anyone. So you please; don't present your favored position as a settled matter.
I believe tha this matter is sort of like the global warming issue Tom. 98% of all scientists will tell you it's true and there are 2% trying their damnest to persuade everyone it is all nonsense.
Until you can prove to me otherwise, the keris orginated in Jawa. :)

[David]

I reiterate kris and keris are not truly two seperate forms. Kris sundang is a type of k[e]ris. In Standard Indonesian "keris" is pronounced "kris".
Actually Tom, i am not convinced that this pronounciation is exactly correct.

[David]

Technically kris-like swords without a seperate ganga are "iras ganga" "without ganga" and are not kris per se.
What gave you that idea Tom?

Kris per se is a very holy and magical weapon. It can only be used or carried by certain persons for certain purposes, etc.
The keris has been a part of the dress of Indonesian people for centuries, both the royal and elite as well as the common man. It was worn daily and a man wouldn't dream of being without it. An adult male not having at least one keris and probably several (handed down from relatives) would be a big exception in the culture.

[Jenny Ida]

Will there be any pictures or details available from this exhibit?

[tom hyle]

BTW kris is not a specialty of mine or anything, but from what I've seen available in English/on the internet/including this forum, all of the earliest archaeological evidence (which is scant) is from the mainland Asia.
Of course, it is neccessary to determine "what is kris"
Is it forward leaned blade?
forward curved blade?
the finger grips?
the guard shaped as part of the blade?
the guard shaped as part of the blade but a seperate piece of metal (seperate or true ganga)?
However, AFAIK the matter is unresolved and all responsible experts admit as much.

[VANDOO]

I SUSPECT YOU HAVE GRABBED THE TIP OF A TAIL STICKING OUT OF MURKY WATER FOR FUN AND NOW HAVE FOUND THERE IS AN ALLIGATOR ATTACHED TO IT. :D

YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK IN KEEPING THE EXHIBIT SIMPLE AS IT WILL BE MOSTLY FOR PEOPLE WHO KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE KERIS/KRIS AND WILL HAVE NO INTEREST IN LEARNING ALL ABOUT THEM. TO MOST IT WILL JUST BE A DAYS ENTERTAINMENT SO DON'T TRY TO COVER TOO MUCH. LOTS OF GOOD EXAMPLES WILL GO OVER MUCH BETTER THAN THE MOST ACCURATE AND DETAILED WRITTEN DISCOURSE. HISTORY IS GOOD IF YOU HAVE ONE OF THE NICE POSTERS OF THE MARINES ENGAGING THE MORO IT WOULD FIT IN WELL WITH A SHORT WRITTEN ACCOUNT OF THE GENERAL CONFLICT AND THAT BATTLE. GOOD PICTURES OF PEOPLE CARRYING THESE WEAPONS OR MAKING THEM AND PERHAPS A WALL MOUNTED AND STATUE KERIS HOLDER. A PICTURE OF A KERIS WITH ALL PARTS LABELED AND A PICTURE OF A KRIS ALSO LABLED PERHAPS A MAP OR TWO. A BIT ABOUT TRADITION, STORIES MAGICAL AND FACTUAL AND TALISMANS AND THE WARRIORS BELIEFS IN THEM.
THE LONG OBSCURE ROAD
THE EVOLUTION, TRADITIONS AND REGIONAL VARIATIONS OF THE KERIS/KRIS

I HAVE THOUGHT OF DOING SOMETHING SIMILAR AT MUSEUMS HERE BUT HAVE FOUND LOCAL CURATORS TO BE POLITICIANS WHO ARE NOT INTERESTED IN SUCH THINGS.

[KuKulzA28]

Wow, there is a lot of debate and information being brought up here, but I don't know if it is all directly and immediately pertinent to Bill's mission here.

I think for the average guy, it needs to be simpler. I remember when I was just learning about the keris/kris. That was only maybe 2-3 years ago...

Maybe this is more what Bill is looking for...


Hook: Start with an eye-catcher... something to get people interested
Define: What the hell is a keris/kris? Why should we care? Where is it from?
So now the people are in, they are interested, they want to know more.
Context: Who used them? What for? What time period...
Expand: Touch on the romantic, brutal, spiritual, bloody, golden heydays of the keris... give a little bit about its economic, political, social, spiritual, and combative backgrounds... stuff that'll interest anyone.
Now the people are eager to know more about the history. Not only the keris and how it developed but also the people, their culture, when their history intersects with Islam, then with Westerners, and the modern-day...
History: Follow the path of the keris, from Java (as far as we know) to the Malaysian areas and Bangsamoro
In-depth: Highlight specific case studies of keris... Javanese, Balinese, Moro... that way you can give your audience an in-depth look at more specific examples... highlight similarities and differences between the various case studies... maybe even attach a personal story to each kris if you can find its provenance and the story of its original owner... a Javanese prince? a Moro datu?
Now people are thinking wow... I didn't even know about Java or the Moros... I didn't even know about kris! I want one! Where can I get more books on them?!
Today: It's not all old-bones and dusty history, it's still very much alive!!! Elaborate on how the keris/kris is still very much part of the cultures in maritime SE Asia and how some aspects of it are in the past, and others still very much alive. How the pandays/empus of today make them and how in some ways it is a dying art... but forever a powerful symbol in the Malay world.

..and that way you have accomplished your mission... you have drawn them in, given them a decent amount of information in a simple way, and gotten them interested in the objects and thus the cultures...

following this style of template/guideline, you keris gurus can fill in your knowledge... don't overwhelm your audience all at once! Don't get into the intricacies, esoteric details, or obscure names that only keris experts would know!


...and prices on kris will continue to sky-rocket! :p :rolleyes: :D





I hope you all take this positively... it's just all too often I see experts inundating others with their knowledge - too much water drowns a plant, too little starves it, but enough causes it to have the energy and the stimuli to keep growing and expanding it's root network...

make it a simple, organized, logic progression that will take the museum-visitor by the hand and lead him/her on a journey that will leave him/her more knowledgeable, having new appreciation, and tantalized and wanting to know more!

[David]

BTW kris is not a specialty of mine or anything, but from what I've seen available in English/on the internet/including this forum, all of the earliest archaeological evidence (which is scant) is from the mainland Asia.
Of course, it is neccessary to determine "what is kris"
Is it forward leaned blade?
forward curved blade?
the finger grips?
the guard shaped as part of the blade?
the guard shaped as part of the blade but a seperate piece of metal (seperate or true ganga)?
However, AFAIK the matter is unresolved and all responsible experts admit as much.
You might want to get off the internet Tom and try a few good, more in depth, books on the subject. I can name you a few if you are truly interested. While they are not perfect either, the internet has a way of recycling quite a bit of false information on the subject and only provide a very small snippet of information, good or bad.
Again, most scholars place the origins of the keris as we know it in Jawa. Most do not consider it unresolved, but i do agree that all would be wise to keep and open mind to any new evidence that might surface in the future. Did this form develop from some previous blade that we would not necessarily recognize as a keris. Well sure, the Javanese people did not invent the concept of the dagger. But there is no evidence to my knowledge of anything resembling the specific form of a keris existing in any part of Asia prior to the emergence of the keris in Java. When the archaeologists dig one up in India or Tibet or whereever i'd be more than happy to consider it.
Also it is the idea of the gonjo that is necessary for a blade to be a keris. Yes Tom, gonjo iras blades are considered "real" keris. Further, the term "gonjo iras" does not mean "without gonjo" as you suggested early in this thead. It means the the gonjo and blade are "one". So you can see from this that the idea of the gonjo continues even if it is not a separate piece from the blade. :)

[tom hyle]

I'm told repeatedly that iras gongo translates "without" a gonjgo (anyone have an actual literal translation of the words for us?), but yes, as I think I said, it does indeed actually mean without a SEPERATE gongo; ie with an integral gonga, or as you say "blade and gonjo are one". Same thing.
The archaeological evidence from India is AFAIK in the form of very old sculptures depicting double-edged forward-curved daggers. This is why I said we must ask first "what is kriss?" but also if kris (as such, defined in tight terms with the elephant the seperate but blade-section guard etc whatever) is from Java (for which I've seen no evidence, but just a lot of repeated declaring), then that does not invalidate the discussion and relation of daggers such as the Hindoo ones that may be ancestral to kris without yet being kris per se. It would be silly to discuss the falchion while denying the relevance of the sax. Now when it comes to Thailand and mainland Malaysia there may be more direct archaeological evidence (ie actual blades).
As in many debates in many feilds I find there are those who declare that things are a certain way, but who seem to ignore evidence or twist definitions to do so. If you boil it down to "the Java kris is from Java" then yeah, the Java kris is from Java, but if you really want to explore where the form originates rather than defining kris per se by Java kris features and then proceeding in a circle, the matter is a bit less clear.
I came back to check out this particularly fascinating thread because I was reading the top 10 wierd swords thread and someone had commented on the kris as noncombative, BTW; I was going to refer that person to this tread, but since I'm now replying to it, that should bring it to the top anyway. My comments on the deadliness of kriss herein are, I think, pretty elucidatory :)