17thC relic Rapier saved?

[Atlantia]

I'll let the pictures speak for themselves.
Opinions are welcomed of course. As would be info and dating ;) Looks early to me.
Blade seems like it might clean up to a reasonable level.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/Battlestar_Atlantia/SDC10738.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/Battlestar_Atlantia/SDC10741.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/Battlestar_Atlantia/SDC10749.jpg

[fernando]

Hi Gene,
Lovely relic; is it yours?
Don't you have Norman's book?
Let's ask Jim if he agrees this has a pommel #60 ... or the likes of it? :o
A hilt not distant to #84?
Definitely a sword from the first half XVII century?
As if i knew something about these things :eek:
Anyway, if you struggle a bit, i can accept it as gift :D .
Fernando

[Atlantia]

Hi Gene,
Lovely relic; is it yours?
Don't you have Norman's book?
Let's ask Jim if he agrees this has a pommel #60 ... or the likes of it? :o
A hilt not distant to #84?
Definitely a sword from the first half XVII century?
As if i knew something about these things :eek:
Anyway, if you struggle a bit, i can accept it as gift :D .
Fernando


Hello Buddy.
Yes its mine, bought it today.
Don't have access to my limited books at the moment
But I don't have 'Normans' :(
Where to start on the conservation/cleaning?

[fernando]

... Where to start on the conservation/cleaning?...
No where ;) .
Maybe (maybe) some inocuous conservation stuff; something innocent like olive oil?
Let's see other member's opinion :cool: .

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Fernando!!! :)

Nicely done Gene! This appears to be closest to hilt #55, which is a cuphilt rapier with alternating quillons probably Continental, N. European c. 1625-40
("The Rapier & the Smallsword 1460-1820", A.V.B.Norman, N.Y. 1980).
It appears that similar hilts were also produced in Toledo about the same period notably by Tomas Aiala. There is great similarity in hilts in these periods following popular fashion, so often it is hard to categorize with definition.

I would proceed with great care and reservation in conserving this piece, and most important is stabilizing any active rust. The patination is pretty solid and trying to work into it would not only compromise the integrity of the sword, but its value, potential damage notwithstanding.

[celtan]

Je concur avec Ferdinand...


... I can accept it as a gift!

: )

Yep, early 17th C. The pommel seems intended to really balance the weapon, thus its the Real McCoy.

Olive Oil works, yet will darken metal.

Yo

Hi Gene,
Lovely relic; is it yours?
Don't you have Norman's book?
Let's ask Jim if he agrees this has a pommel #60 ... or the likes of it? :o
A hilt not distant to #84?
Definitely a sword from the first half XVII century?
As if i knew something about these things :eek:
Anyway, if you struggle a bit, i can accept it as gift :D .
Fernando

[Matchlock]

Hi Gene,

This is a German type so-called Pappenheimer Rapier, Thirty Years War, ca. 1630; there are examples known that are dated 1632 on the blade.

A very similiar in perfect condition and retaining its original sheath was sold from the famous Henk L. Visser collection, Bonhams, London, 27 Nov 2007, and now is in the collection of a friend of mine. Please see attachments.

When cleaning the very delicate blade please note that there must be a fine central ridge visible all the way down almost to the tip.
For a start, please use olive oil together with 240 grain sandpaper and work your way down to 600 or 800 grains for the final finish, always with a thick layer of olive oil between the iron and the paper. :)

Please also note that the pommel and hilt were originally blackened; I would therefore suggest to confine your cleaning action to the blade and just blacken the hilt and pommel by tannin which you should get in any drug store; leave it to dry for two or three days, then put a thick layer of olive oil on both the blackened parts and the cleaned blade and let the whole dry for ca. 6 weeks. You will then get a best possibly recovered and patinated surface, and a conserved one as well; the dried olive oil will stay there and prevent the fingers from getting thru onto the iron surface.

I, and I am sure I am not the only one here, would love to see some pics of the result! ;)

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Some 17th century portraits of the famous Gottfried Heinrich Graf von Pappenheim (Central Franconia, Bavaria) after whom these rapiers that he ordered for his troup are named.

In the first portrait you can see such a rapier at his side.
m

[Jim McDougall]

pappenheimer! cool!!

[Philip]

....for instance, in the kitchen. Just tonight I made this wonderful little appetizer of sliced Japanese "momotaro" tomatoes sprinkled with chopped fresh basil and some crumbled chevre, and drizzled-over with some Greek olive oil. Oink!

For de-rusting and stabilizing corroded surfaces without compromising the patina, I like to use a brand of penetrating oil called "Break-Free" which is popular with firearms enthusiasts since it loosens superficial rust and does a great job of lubricating and preserving without harming finishes such as bluing, parkerizing, or browning (the latter being a form of oxydation which is a cousin to the natural patina on old iron and steel surfaces such as your rapier).

I tend to eschew the use of sandpaper of all kinds when preservation of a dark patina is an issue, in favor of
1. Small brushes with fine brass and stainless-steel bristles, these are about the size of the ones you brush your teeth with.
2. Steel wool in various grades in the medium-to-fine range (2 to 00)
3. Picks and scrapers made of hard non-metallic materials (in Japan, deer antler is the traditional material for the tools used on corroded iron tsubas and sword-tangs. The reason that antler is so favored is that it's hard enough to flake rust away yet won't expose bare metal which is a no-no for tsubas and tangs.
4. Stainless steel dental picks -- use only in the deepest pits or otherwise inaccessible areas such as between blade and guard.
These are listed in "mild to aggressive" order. The first two are the mainstays, with the oil they will take off most of the surface rust one normally encounters and yet when used gently and judiciously, the hard patina underneath will be preserved. The second two work best in "lunar-landscape" areas. Gentle but persistent prodding with the tools does the trick, until the active rust is flaked off the affected area.

When the surface is where you want it to be, you can clean all the accumulated oil and residue off with something like WD-40 and a succession of clean rags until the cloth is more or less unsullied with gunk and rust, and then follow up with a non-greasy preservative like Renaissance Wax. The beauty of the Break-Free is that repeated applications during the time you've been working on the piece will enable the molecules of the oil to really sink in to the pores of the metal (that's why it's such a good lube for things like semi-auto firearms whose working parts are subject to lots of friction). The Renaissance Wax is an effective surface protector that won't get your hands all dirty when you're playing with your toys, and more importantly, won't stain the wallpaper or the backing of your display cabinet if you like to hang them up for all to admire...

[Hotspur]

Why olive oil, specifically if one can please explain? Extra virgin or not?

Forgive me if I read it as something perhaps just trendy, or someone once had great results with simply an oil that happened to be at hand.

Olive oil has been recomended in the past for leather care and I question that,as it gets rancid. I guess this is not an issue if the metal is then going to be cleaned and if oiled regularly, not an issue with it going rancid and getting gummy.

For polishing/sanding work as well, I would question the use of such a heavy viscosity as any olive oil I am familiar with, as lighter oils (or solvents, or water) will float the debris more easily and not plug as heavier oils will.

Enlighten me to the virtues of olive oil. I guess that is as simply I can ask.

Cordially

GC

[Martin Lubojacky]

Hello,
I consider sensitive cleaning and preservation as crucial in cold arms collecting, nevertheless I am not experienced too much and I would like to learn as much as possible. Until now I was informed WD 40 could be sometimes too much agresive (continuing to dissolve deep rust even after the finished preservation) in comparision with other oils like e.g. Konkord.

As far as after aclening preservation is concerned, when I discussed with "museum people", they recommend in certain cases tanin (even if the iron is clened up after this tanating), and for finshing special silicon oil or restoration wax... If I may ask - olive oil is traditional preservation surfactant ?

[fernando]

Hi Gene, what a lucky lad you are ;) .
A pappenheimer, no less :cool: .
And off to the beauty parlour with it :eek: .

Fernando

[fernando]

Philip's appetizer recipe sounds delicious but, naturally due to my origin's influence, a generous drizzle of olive oil on boiled (dried) cod fish and potatoes, makes it the dish of Gods ;) .
I take it for myself that, cleaning an old rusty sword, blade and hilt, unless done by a professional restorer, is always an adventure.
I hear that olive oil was already used by Romans in their blades. Evidently, despite their mighty possibilities, tey didn't have at hand all this derusting and conservation paraphernalia that we find nowadays.
Searching in the Forum for the term 'olive oil', one can find quite a few threads where this resource is used or adviced.
I have used olive oil in a couple pole arms and swords (after being adviced) and it looks fine. Naturaly i am talking about conservation and patination; the said weapons, although being early items, had no active rust to deal with.
I admit olive oil may have its inconveniences; maybe not so hazardous that we can't leave with. Well, we even eat it :eek: .
This not meanning that modern stuffs are not better, by all means. More a question of those who fancy following the line of tradition; old weapons, old systems ... old fashion look :cool: .
Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Good grief!!! You guys and all this culinary stuff make my baloney sandwich look pretty pedestrian!!! :)

Thank you so much Michael for your always excellent additions of contemporary artwork, which really add dimension to the weapons we are studying.......and 'Pappenheimer' ..nicely done!!! That one really flew by us on the radar!!!! :)

All the best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

Why olive oil, specifically if one can please explain? Extra virgin or not?

Forgive me if I read it as something perhaps just trendy, or someone once had great results with simply an oil that happened to be at hand.

Olive oil has been recomended in the past for leather care and I question that,as it gets rancid. I guess this is not an issue if the metal is then going to be cleaned and if oiled regularly, not an issue with it going rancid and getting gummy.

For polishing/sanding work as well, I would question the use of such a heavy viscosity as any olive oil I am familiar with, as lighter oils (or solvents, or water) will float the debris more easily and not plug as heavier oils will.

Enlighten me to the virtues of olive oil. I guess that is as simply I can ask.

Cordially

GC


Hi Hotspur,

Olive oil is the so-called tree oil (German Baumöl) that is mentioned in 17th century armory books as the optimal means of cleaning, together with Schmirgel (sand), and preserving iron surfaces, be it armor or arms. Olive oil is the yellowish patina on untouched surfaces of antique arms; if you clean it off you will get a perfectly preserved milky white iron surface with no rust.

I have been using it in my almost 40 years of conservation practice and will stick to it as it is the historic recipe and has proved to work just fine. During the cleaning process you will get no scratches on the iron surface, nor an unnatural shine afterwards.

Best,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Hotspur,

Olive oil is the so-called tree oil (German Baumöl) that is mentioned in 17th century armory books as the optimal means of cleaning, together with Schmirgel (sand), and preserving iron surfaces, be it armor or arms. Olive oil is the yellowish patina on untouched surfaces of antique arms; if you clean it off you will get a perfectly preserved milky white iron surface with no rust.

I have been using it in my almost 40 years of conservation practice and will stick to it as it is the historic recipe and has proved to work just fine. During the cleaning process you will get no scratches on the iron surface, nor an unnatural shine afterwards.

Best,
Michael

Beautifully said Michael!!!! I forgot that you had once told me about olive oil being used on these early weapons.

[Matchlock]

Beautifully said Michael!!!! I forgot that you had once told me about olive oil being used on these early weapons.


Hi Grandmaster Jim,

You must be kidding, my friend. :)
Are you going to tell me that your master mind actually forgot something? You know I will do anything for you but I won't believe that ... ;) (after Jim Steinman and Meat Loaf) :rolleyes:

Thank you so much,
and with all my very best wishes,
Michael

[Atlantia]

Hi All!

Nando,
Well, I've not actually used olive oil before (apart from cooking of course)
I'll have to buy some tomorrow :)

Jim,
Thanks for the research, it kinda confirms my thoughts. Well, I thought 1620-30, but a few years later is still fine really.

Manolo,
Thanks :)
To be honest I think the pommel is my favourite bit! Its such a beauty!

Michael,
Thank you for your research. To be honest (and without looking through my books which I don't have access to at the moment) I didn't think it was 'quite' a pappenheimer, so thats a most pleasant suprise!
The 'Bonhams' sword is an absolute beauty! Would that I could happen across one of that quality :(
I will try olive oil/silicon carbide paper, I can honestly say I'd never have thought of using olive oil to lubricate the paper.
I will certainly show off the results. :)

Philip,
Some great tips there! Especially the deer antler. I completely approve, they drop off naturally, and are great to work with. I'll have to fabricate a few 'tools' from some offcuts, as I'm actually working a piece to make a hilt at the moment.
I didn't know it was a traditional tool for Japanese Tsuba/metalworkers

Hotspur,
Well, I've not used it before either, but sounds like its worth a try. :)

Martin,
I'e always used aerosol penetrating oils as they hopefully WILL sink into the pits and stabilise the rust. I've never had a problem with them loosening deep rust like an acid though.

Nando,
That this fine weapon should have ended up like this is just horrible.
I don't think any beauty parlour could do much... but I do have some hopes.
Its a bit like watching England in the world cup, there will probobly be some sweat and tears, fingers crossed, prayers whispered... but in the end, mostly just a sad realisation of what 'might have been' :(

[Matchlock]

Hi Gene,

Thanks so much for appreciating our fellow contributions!
It really does one so good being both confirmed and enabled to inform you on the treasure you landed! ;)
Of course it's all up to you to make the best out of that rare acquisition.

Having been a regular subscriber to all the relevant auction houses for more than 30 years worldwide, I continuously see thousands of pieces going thru the international market each year. Given the fact that the result price of the piece in discussion I posted didn't bash you off too hard, please let me know whenever you're ready to hit. I would then love giving you a hint on future chances.
I will sent you a private message. :cool:

May I give you a fair warning about using silicone though:
It will be final, with no chance whatsoever to get it off - that's what in my mind most people tend to neglect ... :(

The choice is all up to you anyways, so good luck - and I really look forward to seeing the pics.

Best,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Grandmaster Jim,

You must be kidding, my friend. :)
Are you going to tell me that your master mind actually forgot something? You know I will do anything for you but I won't believe that ... ;) (after Jim Steinman and Meat Loaf) :rolleyes:

Thank you so much,
and with all my very best wishes,
Michael



Michael, the scope of your awareness is amazing!!! "Bat outa hell"!!!! outstanding stuff :) Thank you so much!

Gene, as Michael has noted, thank you for taking the time to personally acknowledge the comments made by all of us, a very nice touch and very much appreciated. You are a true gentleman Sir!!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Matchlock]

My dear Honored Gentleman Jim,

Again nobody could have possibly summarized it nearly as well as you did! ;)

We've always felt like strong brother bats ready to get outa hell, and danm' it didn't we?! :cool: Thankin' you so much for makin' me blush one more time, my big boss and dear friend out there on Route 66,
and with all my heartfelt greetings from far off Lower Bavaria:
Yours truly,
Michael, Mike, Mikey, Mickey, Mikhail, Miguel, Michel, Michl (Bavarian!) :cool:

[fernando]

So it's MICHL ;) .
Why you never told us ? :mad:
Nando

[Matchlock]

Sorry, Fernando, for keeping my Bavarian nickname secret for so long! :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

After discussing Gene's Pappenheimer with my sword collecting friend I must ask whether the blade is one edged. If that is so, and telling by the hilt, it seems that ca. 1645 (late Thirty Years War) would be a more accurate date.

Best,
Michael

[katana]

Great thread Gentlemen :cool: .

Nice one Gene.....I love 'relic' pieces..... :cool:

Have you decided to what extent, you are going to clean this ? I would certainly consider (if it was mine) making a wooden handle (in 2 halves) and fixing with a wire wrap. No adhesive....so that the handle is not permanently fixed and could be removed without damage to the tang.

All the best
David

Oh by the way, hows your 'other' aquisition doing.....( the two legged, two armed type .... I mean :) )

[fernando]

...Oh by the way, hows your 'other' aquisition doing.....( the two legged, two armed type .... I mean :) )

:eek: :eek: :eek:

.

[katana]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

.

Hi 'Nando :) ,
I still remember when I was a 'new' father.....my 'acquistions' needed constant cleaning.....surprised they never rusted with all the 'moisture' they produced (and 'stored' in their nappies ) ....and as I recall the only state of 'preservation' required was my own 'sanity' after all the late night ...and very early morning feeding and nappy changes :D

Regards David

[fernando]

David, young lad ;)
Your'e lucky that, in your time, nappies were already disposable, wehereas in mine, they had to be washed :eek: .
Best
Fernando

[celtan]

Forgot Mikhail..!


Back in the 48s, everytime I went to any of those fast food places where they announce your name through speakers, they kept mangling my name: From lordly and dignified Manuel, to ManuAl, Menhuel, Minguel etc..

So I ended up adopting Michael as a less troublesome alternative.

It got to the point when those who I lunched with ended up calling me Michael (et al) instead of my wonderful name, which BTW, they knew well..!

Could it be that the name Michael is more popular than Manuel..?

Nah ! Silly thought..!

: )

BTW, when _we_ use Olive Oil to preserve muskets, the barrel ends up becoming dark after a while, and it doesn't lighten its shade at all.

There are a couple forumites that are converse withthe methods to dismount and repair hilts, it would be very interesting to do a thread on te subject.

LBNL Did I understand than Nando became a Dad? Or is this figuratively speaking, on account of the new toy?

Best

superM


My dear Honored Gentleman Jim,

Again nobody could have possibly summarized it nearly as well as you did! ;)

We've always felt like strong brother bats ready to get outa hell, and danm' it didn't we?! :cool: Thankin' you so much for makin' me blush one more time, my big boss and dear friend out there on Route 66,
and with all my heartfelt greetings from far off Lower Bavaria:
Yours truly,
Michael, Mike, Mikey, Mickey, Miguel, Michel, Michl (Bavarian!) :cool:

[Matchlock]

Hi SuperManuel,

(I certainly won't go corrupting your both lordly and heavenly name! ;)

You are perfectly right - how could I forget Mikhail? So I edited that post right away and added that version. Hope for your greatful forgiveness for this one time ... :o

Yeah, a thread on dismantling rapiers sounds like a great idea but I am afraid I am not the chosen one to do that. I never dismantle pommels or wire bindings. When they have obviously been together for hundreds of years that would seem a sacrilege to me. Leave untouched objects just the way they have been handed down to us, that's always been my credo.

Best,
Mikhail

[Philip]

I heard some very disturbing words here, such as "remove the pommel". PLEASE DON'T! Conceivably, there will be a situation sometime in which a pommel has to be taken off, I've had to do it in my restoration practice, but I can see that this is not the time for it since a gentleman has previously given a wonderful suggestion -- if you want to put a handle on this hilt to make the piece "complete", then simply install two shaped pieces of wood with the leather and wire overlay in period style. The wooden halves can be held together with houselhold glue or some simple adhesive to make the thing easy to handle during subsequent leather- and wire-work, but should not be glued directly to the tang in case a subsequent owner wants to remove it.

The peening of the tang into the "mushroom" over the pommel, and the subsequent rusting and patination of the surface, is a testament to the time that has passed since the sword was last fitted-up. This historical record will be destroyed if the tang is filed or ground to allow the pommel to slide off. There is also the issue of having enough metal protruding from the pommel when the hilt is eventually re-assembled, let's just not go there for now. It is possible to patinate a newly re-peened tang but the results, though better than bare metal, are never as satisfying as that which has seen the passage of centuries. For this reason, I am also loathe to clean sword tangs down to bare metal (the Japanese are truly anal-retentive about this and de-rusting a tang down to bare iron will destroy the value of a blade in their eyes). Remove active corrosion but leave the patina intact. Blades get cleaned, polished, sharpened, refinished during their working lives, but the tang tends to remain undisturbed in the hilt and the signs of age that are evident in this area should remain if at all possible.

[fernando]

... Did I understand than Nando became a Dad? Or is this figuratively speaking, on account of the new toy? ...

i meant the real thing, but that was 32 years ago :)

[celtan]

Well. Belated congrats nonetheless..!

:D

i meant the real thing, but that was 32 years ago :)

[fernando]

This not being the case but, is there no tolerance for screw pommels?
If not, i confess i am a sinner :o . I had this cup hilted sword with both easily unscrewable knuckle guard fixation and pommel. I culdn't resist the temptation to dismount them, to better discern the maker's marks on the ricasso.
The result was positive on the mark visualization, and no visible harm occurred with the hilt patina :cool:
Fernando

[celtan]

Hi Philip,

Never fear, that's not_exactly_ what I had in mind. I agree with everything you said.

OTOH, I have obtained several swords with ruined grip covers and wiring which don't seem to ever have had a preened tang. I suspect the hilt is held together by some type of internal metal hook coupled to expansion of the guard. That's the specific example I should have provided.

I owned a rare Danish Hussard Saber which I had to let go, because I hated the sight of its crumbling leather grip and broken/loose grip wires. I also own a swedish naval saber, lovely in its simplicity and form, but everytime I hold it in my hand, the wire is further damaged. LBNL, I have a huge swedish M1831 saber, which I wanted to use on 18th C Historical reenactments, showing the same problem. I also have a strange english shortsword, found in Westminster's House of Commons after a Luftwaffe attack, which has its fish-skin grip cover crumbling away. All very sad pictures to me, I wish I could fix them.

The following pics have nothing to do with my swords, just the type of grips I was writing about.

:(

Cheers

merelyM

:(



I heard some very disturbing words here, such as "remove the pommel". PLEASE DON'T! Conceivably, there will be a situation sometime in which a pommel has to be taken off, I've had to do it in my restoration practice, but I can see that this is not the time for it since a gentleman has previously given a wonderful suggestion -- if you want to put a handle on this hilt to make the piece "complete", then simply install two shaped pieces of wood with the leather and wire overlay in period style. The wooden halves can be held together with houselhold glue or some simple adhesive to make the thing easy to handle during subsequent leather- and wire-work, but should not be glued directly to the tang in case a subsequent owner wants to remove it.

The peening of the tang into the "mushroom" over the pommel, and the subsequent rusting and patination of the surface, is a testament to the time that has passed since the sword was last fitted-up. This historical record will be destroyed if the tang is filed or ground to allow the pommel to slide off. There is also the issue of having enough metal protruding from the pommel when the hilt is eventually re-assembled, let's just not go there for now. It is possible to patinate a newly re-peened tang but the results, though better than bare metal, are never as satisfying as that which has seen the passage of centuries. For this reason, I am also loathe to clean sword tangs down to bare metal (the Japanese are truly anal-retentive about this and de-rusting a tang down to bare iron will destroy the value of a blade in their eyes). Remove active corrosion but leave the patina intact. Blades get cleaned, polished, sharpened, refinished during their working lives, but the tang tends to remain undisturbed in the hilt and the signs of age that are evident in this area should remain if at all possible.

[celtan]

Albricias, Don Fernando,


I do that routinely to my nazi daggers, and I understand its a common procedure with threaded pommels.

Best

M


This not being the case but, is there no tolerance for screw pommels?
If not, i confess i am a sinner :o . I had this hilt with both easily unscrewable knuckle guard fixation and pommel. I culdn't resist the temptation to dismount them, to better discern the maker's marks on the ricasso.
The result was positive on the mark visualization, and no visible harm occurred with the hilt patina :cool:
Fernando

[Atlantia]

Hello Gentlemen, let me answer in turn (and huge thanks to all)


Michael,
Thank you for you kind words and advice.
The silicon is 'silicon carbide paper' (wet and dry) so just to even out the rust really.
the Blade is double edged (definately) although it may have been accentuated by surface loss, the blade is sharp almost all the way up.

Jim,
Thank you, but we all just follow your lead sir :o

David,
I really don't know to be truthful. :shrug:
Whatever happens, I need to clean the loose rust off, and conserve it. If I keep it I would do exactly as you say with the handle, but to be honest, I usually find that I can't keep relics for long, I find the condition 'issues' niggle away at me.
As for baby Alex, he is still keeping us awake at nights, but he's doing well and is an absolute joy. Thank you for asking :D

Manuel

David meant me, I became a dad 6 months ago for the first time.

Philip,
Never fear, I don't see any need to remove the pommel from this sword.

Nando,
A father 32 years ago? Is he sleeping through the night yet? :rolleyes:
-After 6 months the sleep depravation seems endless.

[fernando]

Hi Gene

... A father 32 years ago? Is he sleeping through the night yet? :rolleyes:
-After 6 months the sleep depravation seems endless.

It is a she; a pets Vet.
Sleeping through? always :) . I can count with my (five) fingers the nights Katia made us loose.
She was (is) a gift of the Gods ;) .
'Nando

[Atlantia]

Hi Gene



It is a she; a pets Vet.
Sleeping through? always :) . I can count with my (five) fingers the nights Katia made us loose.
She was (is) a gift of the Gods ;) .
'Nando

LOL, she certainly was a little angel then!
Alex is a total blessing, just hard on my sleep. :D

[Philip]

Of course, my prior comments on pommel removal were penned with peened-over tangs in mind. If the hilt is held by threaded nuts, then there's no problem with taking off and replacing the components, providing the nuts can be unscrewed without encountering the vexing problem of threads frozen by deep-seated corrosion. You will probably have to improvise your own wrench or spanner if the nut isn't of a size or shape that can be gripped with commonly-available tools. Some pommel nuts are recessed, and are turned via split slots, visible on either side of the threaded bolt which is the end of the tang. A large, wide screwdriver thick enough to fit the slots will do the trick, once the center portion is filed out to clear the tang. Similar split nuts are sometimes encountered on the wooden slab grips of bayonets, cutlasses, and fascine knives (the French were fond of this type of attachment) so you may need to modify a variety of screwdriver sizes to fit these. I like the old-fashioned English-style joiners' or cabinetmakers' screwdrivers, their blades are beefy and well-tempered, and the bulbous wood handles are very ergonomic. Besides, the flattened area at the base of the shank is ideal for attaching a wrench to, so you can generate some awesome torque to back out a stubborn nut or screw.

[Hotspur]

Hi Hotspur,

Olive oil is the so-called tree oil (German Baumöl) that is mentioned in 17th century armory books as the optimal means of cleaning, together with Schmirgel (sand), and preserving iron surfaces, be it armor or arms. Olive oil is the yellowish patina on untouched surfaces of antique arms; if you clean it off you will get a perfectly preserved milky white iron surface with no rust.

I have been using it in my almost 40 years of conservation practice and will stick to it as it is the historic recipe and has proved to work just fine. During the cleaning process you will get no scratches on the iron surface, nor an unnatural shine afterwards.

Best,
Michael
Thanks, for the followup and explanation. I certainly didn't mean this to be a hit and run, nor derail a topic entirely with my own experiences. While I don't deny old recipes and tradition may have a place in use of maintenance, the materials have been updated with little difference in results. The amount of shine is certainly adjustable with any abrasives and sand or soil is just that. Oil is generally just as variable but my wonder about the viscosity and real worth of maintaining olive oil as a grail makes me sceptical that it is just tradition and a very subjective method of continuing it in modern conservation.

I recently received an item that was cleaned and conserved simply with soft cloths and paste wax. While it was minimally invasive of its then current state, what that left after a decade or so was simply cloaking dirt and even rust which continued to progress. My point, I guess is that the heavier viscosity of olive oil and any remaining "wax" is simply adding to patina instead of simple cleaning and more serious conservation.

Thanks for the reply

GC

[Dmitry]

Did you finish your conservation?
Perhaps we can see the results?

[Dmitry]

Also, I've searched 'tannin' and couldn't find any pharmacy products. Would anyone care to elaborate on it?

[fernando]

Search for "Tannic acid".
Contained in red whine, coffe, tea, spinach, etc
The formula is C76H52O46.
The other day, a museum restorer also adviced this stuff.
It is found, over here, in traditional drug stores.
Certainly acquirable in the Internet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannic_acid

[Dmitry]

Thank you. I know what a tannic acid is. I was hoping it was available as a commercial product.The easiest way for me to obtain it is probably to brew some strong tea. Perhaps that's what I should do, and try it on an iron nail.

[Dmitry]

Found this -
http://www.homebrewit.com/aisle/p/6300B

[fernando]

Good that you found it.
I was already thinking of how to get some, over here, and send it to you.

[Dmitry]

Good that you found it.
I was already thinking of how to get some, over here, and send it to you.

Thanks! I'm thinking some strong-brewed tea would have the same effect. Will try it tonight on a musket barrel bracket that I f..ed up by over-cleaning it badly.
Will take some photos 'before and after'.

[Atlantia]

Dmitry/Gentlemen.
Its just been sat with WD40 on it to protect it while I decide what to do next.

[Dmitry]

For what it's worth, I wouldn't call this sword a Pappenheimer. The hilt is quite English in style and construction, at least to these green eyes.