Mandau pommel representation?

[migueldiaz]

hello all!

i've just finished reading sellato's hornbill and dragon (courtesy of a friend). there's a lot of pics of the mandau in there but the book didn't say what the pommel figure represents.

i've just browsed the articles in this forum but i didn't come across any info as to what the pommel is supposed to depict.

was there a consensus already among experts on the mandau as to what it is, and if yes, what would it be? (e.g., would it be the dragon dog, aso, for instance).

thanks in advance for any answer :)

the pic below is from oriental-arms of course ...

[Mytribalworld]

hello all!

i've just finished reading sellato's hornbill and dragon (courtesy of a friend). there's a lot of pics of the mandau in there but the book didn't say what the pommel figure represents.

i've just browsed the articles in this forum but i didn't come across any info as to what the pommel is supposed to depict.

was there a consensus already among experts on the mandau as to what it is, and if yes, what would it be? (e.g., would it be the dragon dog, aso, for instance).

thanks in advance for any answer :)

the pic below is from oriental-arms of course ...


Hi,

not an easy question to aswer, course in my opinion there's nothing such as " The mandauhilt" . the variations are enourmous due to cultural influences, migrations, wars, etc. actually the mandauhilt is built up from a complex mix of mostly leech motifs, dog/dragon motifs and human/spirit faces.
The overall shape is ( at least in my opinon) not fitting into an dragon,dog or animal head. If we may believe the old work of Hein , the mandauhilt is built up from 3 faces above eachother and indeed that is in many cases recongnizable,but mostly on mandaus from the south east part of Borneo.
Iban ( and a whole lot of other related tribes) carve a whole other mix of scrolls, dragons, nippels etc etc and their variations seems quite endless.

For explanation of these motifs you have to think a little the Dayak way.
The surrounding world is filled by spirits and to frigthen the bad ones and cheer the good onesyou can use several motifs. These motifs are on their way related mostly to symbols of power and strength like, deerhorn,hair,blood

In many cases the hilt has a spirit/human face what is so positioned that it sees forward when the mandau is in the scabbard.You see all over Borneo such faces sometimes very stylistic and totally faded.
According to Heppel ( read also Iban art) these faces represent the spirit of a trophy head.

there are however also totally ( quite scarce) undecorated mandauhilts, "Islamic" mandauhilts with flowermotifs, double headed mandauhilts , etc. etc etc.

I will see if I can find time to picture some hilts in my collection,

best regards,

Arjan

[Maurice]

Lorenz, what an outstanding question!
And Arjan gave an outstanding answer!

The only thing I could add is that I hope there will be time for Arjan taking images of his collection mandauhilts!
Maybe we could start a thread such as the parang face gallery from Michael, but then with different variants of mandauhilts, all over Borneo (face or no face).

But first find out if there is some animo for it, because the reactions on some threads of fabulous blades (of which much could be said) are very low lately.......or am I mistaken?????

Kind Regards,
Maurice

[migueldiaz]

Hi, not an easy question to aswer, xxx I will see if I can find time to picture some hilts in my collectionArjan, many thanks for your answer :)

As Maurice also mentioned, it's awesome. Thus, your comments are truly much appreciated.

After reading your comments, I'm beginning to think that perhaps the reason why Bernard Sellato (author of Hornbill and Dragon) did not attempt to explain the symbolism of the mandau hilt was precisely because it was a difficult subject.

We also hope that at your convenience, you can post pics from your collection.

Thanks again for your remarks ...

[Henk]

Lorenz, what an outstanding question!
And Arjan gave an outstanding answer!

The only thing I could add is that I hope there will be time for Arjan taking images of his collection mandauhilts!
Maybe we could start a thread such as the parang face gallery from Michael, but then with different variants of mandauhilts, all over Borneo (face or no face).

But first find out if there is some animo for it, because the reactions on some threads of fabulous blades (of which much could be said) are very low lately.......or am I mistaken?????

Kind Regards,
Maurice

Maurice,

I think this can become a wonderful and interesting thread.
I hope Arjan can find some time to make some pictures of his collection. It would be nice if he could add also the tribe and the place of origin to the hilts. I surely hope that next to Arjan other knowledgeable members will follow with their hilts.

Migueldiaz,

Thank you for starting this thread.

[asomotif]

Pfew....

I am glad that Arjan already replied.
That was exactely what I wanted to write :D ;)

But seriously. The global shape of mandau hilts, in my opnion, is largely dictated by the shape of the antler from which it is cut/carved.

There are various shapes, but in most cases they are following the natural shape of the antler of the sambar deer.

Probably the various tribes will have their own names for different mandau hilt shapes. But in this respect I would like to recommend "the Womans Warpath" by Traude Gavin.
This is a book about textiles / Pua and Miss Gavin points out the fact that in our western minds we often want designs to be depicting something.
So if a design is called "centipede" or "leech" design, we start searching this design for features that resemble a cetipede or leech.
While in certain cases realting to Pua/textiles, the name of the design is just a name, because the woman wanted to give a certain design a recognisable name in order to be able to discuss it or to recall or reproduce it.

Take for instance a "stanley knife" in our culture.
The knife does not look like a person called stanley.
But with this name we all know what type/shape and function we are talking about.

In mandau hilts, we often see that the protruding ends of the hilt ar hollow and decorated with fangs. IMHO most probably to depict an ASO/Dragon.
But to take such a hilt and than decide that it depicts a dragon will probably be to easy.

Anyway, a veryinteresting thread. Thank you Miguel for starting it.
I would like to join Maurice in his hope that somemore forumites wil join the discussion and contribute with odd or scarce examples of hilts.

BTW, of course we already have a very large number of pictures on this fourm with quite scarce and rare mandau hilts.
Lets do our best to add some more :)

Best regards,
Willem

[migueldiaz]

Migueldiaz, Thank you for starting this thread.Thanks too, Henk. And I do hope that with the heads of forumites put together, but still attached to the shoulders though :D ;) the 'mystery' of the mandau hilt's design would be lifted a little.

This is a book about textiles / Pua and Miss Gavin points out the fact that in our western minds we often want designs to be depicting something ...Thanks too Willem for your further elaboration on the subject. And I think it's a very good point you mentioned, among others -- taking the proper perspective (the various tribes' own viewpoint), would be key in understanding better the subject matter.

I am now browsing Quer Durch Borneo (http://ia331337.us.archive.org/2/items/querdurchborneo17383gut/17383-h/17383-h.htm). Per some of the pics I saw in there (below), I've now come to the conclusion that, (a) these folks really know how to make swords, and (b) I was born into the wrong tribe ;) :)

[Battara]

(b) I was born into the wrong tribe ;) :)
Oh..I don't know about that. The Philippines has a long tradition of great carving as well. Take a look sometime at the okir tombstones of the Sulu islands. And then there are the Maranao building carvings in okir.

I don't know if you are a Tagalog, but at one time we may have had such artwork too.

I also noticed in the pictures there were women that looked like they were doing a version of tinikling dance. Truly they are cousins to Filipinos. :)

[migueldiaz]

Oh..I don't know about that. The Philippines has a long tradition of great carving as well. Take a look sometime at the okir tombstones of the Sulu islands. And then there are the Maranao building carvings in okir.

I don't know if you are a Tagalog, but at one time we may have had such artwork too.

I also noticed in the pictures there were women that looked like they were doing a version of tinikling dance. Truly they are cousins to Filipinos. :)Hey Battara, I was just being cute when I said I was born into the wrong tribe :)

That remark of mine is supposed to refer (tongue in cheek) to the pic where we see two men, very relaxed, while being attended to by their sweethearts.

Each region in southeast Asia is of course known for their own unique (but interrelated) culture. And each can be very proud of his/her heritage.

And a little off-topic, yes I am a Tagalog (Batangas on my mother's side and Pampanga-Nueva Ecija on the paternal side) ... and as a Filipino I am very proud of the history and culture of the country :)

Back to the topic ... as you also mentioned the links amongst the various southeast Asian ethnolinguistic groups are very intimate.

Again, I'd like to cite as evidence linguistics -- the Philippine word for headhunting or raiding or warfare (i.e., kayaw, pronounced kah-yao, the last syllable rhymes with cow) is almost the same throughout the region (Taiwan, Phils., Malaysia, Indonesia, etc., i.e., the Austronesian world), as we can see in this excerpt from a paper (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/27051321/Microsoft-PowerPoint---Formosan-Philippine-morphosyntactic-differences):

*maN-: PAn or PMP??-II

Blust (1999: 68, footnote 14): “Prominent examples include Puyuma [Taiwan aborigine] /mangayaw/ ‘to hunt heads’, a form which is synchronically unanalyzable, but is seen to have a historical prefix *maN- by comparison with Isneg ['Igorot'/ Phils.] /kayaw/ ‘headhunting’: /ma-ngayaw/ ‘to hunt heads’, Western Bukidnon Manobo [Mindanao, Phils.]/kayew/ ‘be in readiness of fight, be in array’: /me-ngayew/ ‘a raider’: /pe-ngayew/ ‘to raid a house or village in order to kill someone’, Kayan (Uma Juman dialect) [Borneo, Indonesia portion] /kayo/ ‘post-harvest ceremony for the ritual purification of weapons’: /ngayo/ ‘go to war, hunt heads’, Iban [Sarawak, Malaysia] /kayau/ ‘raiding, war, foray because of a feud, head- hunting’: /ngayau/ ‘make war on, go on a foray’, and POc [proto-Oceanic] *panako ‘steal’, a form which is synchronically unanalyzable in many Oc [Oceanic] languages, but which is seen to have a historical prefix *paN- by comparison with Aklanon [Panay Is., Phils.] /takaw/ ‘steal’: /pa-nakw/ ‘theft’ or Toba Batak [northern Sumatra] /tangko/ ‘theft’: /pa-nangko/ ‘thief’.”

*maN-: PAn or PMP??-III ␣ Isnag / Isneg [northern Luzon, Phils.]

(a) ŋáyaw ‘headhunting’ (Rudy Barlaan, pers. comm. 2008)

(b) agngangáyaw (< ag-CV-ngáyaw): ‘the time of headhunting’ (Vanoverbergh 1972)

Bugkalot / Ilongot [northern Luzon, Phils.] (Liao 2008)

(a) sit (t)a ŋáyo(v)an: one Lig headhunting; ‘a group of people going for headhunting in one place’ [Belance, Quirino, Aurora]

(b) ŋáyo(v)ɨn=dɨ=ydɨ no: buvat. headhunt=Gen.3p=Nom.3p Lcv tomorrow ‘They will headhunt against them tomorrow.’
The above dump is a bit jumbled but in essence, kayaw is almost the same word with the same meaning in Malaysia and Indonesia (i.e., in Borneo).

Which leads us back to the mandau and its hilt form, as it relates to headhunting, which headhunting activity was not unique to Borneo, but was widely practiced in the southeast Asia portion of Austronesia.

Thus when I posed the query as to the possible representation of the mandau hilt, I was also thinking of its possible explanatory power to the hilt forms of the wider formerly-headhunting Austronesian world :)

PS - Does anybody know the root word or meaning of the Bornean word, Ngaju? Perhaps it's also related to ngayaw (verb form of the noun kayaw).

[Battara]

Oh....I misunderstood....glad to hear it (I am Tagalog on my father's side).:o

BTW - thank you for the wonderful pictures. :D

[migueldiaz]

Oh....I misunderstood....glad to hear it (I am Tagalog on my father's side).My writing was the one not clear :o ... and good to know that your ancestors too were Luzon river-dwellers, i.e., taga-ilog (from the river/s) :)

[Maurice]

It would be nice if he could add also the tribe and the place of origin to the hilts.
Henk that is a nice idea, but also a hard one to find...
I posted these images already in another thread, but I think they belong in this one also.
Here an Iban hilt and an Iban warrior with a similar one.

[Battara]

My writing was the one not clear :o ... and good to know that your ancestors too were Luzon river-dwellers, i.e., taga-ilog (from the river/s) :)
Hey that goes with my other ancestors on my mother's side - Irish (+Scots and Cherokee) - RIVER DANCERS! :D

[migueldiaz]

Hey that goes with my other ancestors on my mother's side - Irish (+Scots and Cherokee) - RIVER DANCERS! :DCool! :)

On the subject of headhunting which is intimately linked with the device used (i.e., the sword), I found this nice summary (http://www.seasite.niu.edu/crossroads/russell/headhunting.htm) on the beliefs and interpretations surrounding the "activity" --

HEAD-HUNTING IN SOUTHEAST ASIA

Before 200-350 A.D., headhunting appears to have had a nearly continuous distribution in most of Southeast Asia and Melanesia. In the Philippines, for example, headhunting was widespread among both lowland and highland Filipinos when the Spanish arrived and established a colony in the archipelago in the mid-1500s. By the turn of the 20th century, headhunting was still practiced only by a minority of small ethnolinguistic groups (sometimes called ‘tribes’) in Burma (Myanmar), Assam in India, the northern Philippine mountains, highland Melanesia, and Kalimantan in Indonesia. Colonial rule in Southeast Asia had all but wiped the practice out by 1930.

While the anthropological literature on headhunting is vast, one can condense the interpretations into five major interpretive frameworks, each one echoing the prevailing theoretical trends in anthropology at the time they were written. These five views are summarized below (drawing in part on the references below):

1. Colonial View – European colonial powers from the 1500s to 1800s were not used to the ritualized violence associated with headhunting in Southeast Asia and understood little about its connection to indigenous cosmology, agricultural and human fertility and religious power. Instead, their own conceptions of morality and ‘proper’ ways to engage in violence accepted face-to-face combat as the ‘manly’ way to wage war or solve territorial battles. Southeast Asians, on the other hand, were perceived by European colonial administrators as bloodthirsty savages in dire need of ‘civilized’ influence. Headhunting was conducted in the region by stealth—a form of ‘surprise’ attack. As a result, headhunting victims often were innocent children and women as well as men since fulfilling the religious, emotional or vengeance goals of tribal Southeast Asians did not require one to distinguish one kind of victim as more worthy than another. In contrast, patriarchal European military men considered women and children unacceptable targets of warfare because they were considered ‘helpless’. Other differences included the way in which ‘heads’ were ritually displayed in public—an affront to European sensitivities about the dead.

These differences enabled Europeans to justify ‘differential’ policies of social and military control in areas where headhunting was endemic, compared to areas where it did not exist.

2. Religious View – Anthropologists and scholar-colonial administrators working in upland Burma and Assam were among the first to recognize that headhunting was not just about violence, revenge, or savagery. Ethnographers like J.P. Mills and Christoph von Fò rer-Haimendorf noted that cosmology among upland Southeast Asian groups had much to do with the practice of headhunting. By displaying a victim’s head in public and treating it through ritual purification, one could conceivably be recruiting the soul of the enemy into an ally. The spirit of such allies could then be considered part of your ancestral spirit group – and aid or support your ancestral spirits in the afterlife. Since the afterlife in what was known as the ‘skyworld’ resembled life on this earth, with spirits feasting, raiding, growing crops, etc., a beheaded victim’s spirit could also be considered as a recruit to your ancestors’ warrior or ‘army’ in the skyworld. At the very least, they could not become the enemies of your ancestors after death.

3. Structural/Cosmological View – Robert McKinley’s study of ethnographic documents on headhunting in Southeast Asia is the first major ‘regional’ synthesis. While acknowledging early interpretations such as (2) above, he makes several critical points on data from insular Southeast Asia. First, killing one’s enemies means ‘victory’, but acquiring human heads confers the mystical benefits. Second, the ceremonies surrounding the victim’s head are what enable its’ spirit to become a friend, guardian, and benefactor. Third, headhunting is not solely about violence: it is part of a sophisticated mythological, ritual and cosmological worldview (see McKinley, op. cit., pp. 95-97).

Following the structuralist approach of Claude Levi-Strauss, Robert McKinley notes that headhunting poses a contradiction for indigenous Southeast Asian cosmology. On the one hand, indigenous Southeast Asian cosmology was oriented toward an upstream-downstream geography that fit well with their preferred settlement locations along rivers. Their cosmology consisted of a basic three-layered world: the skyworld (the abode of spirits, culture heroes, and gods), this world (the realm of their village settlements and of true humans), and the underworld (the realm of spirits and deities responsible for, among other things, agricultural and human fertility). Gods, goddesses, culture heroes and spirits of various sorts moved between these realms. In myths, culture heroes go on ‘long journeys’ to visit exotic, dangerous places to acquire magical powers and knowledge, much like headhunters made dangerous journeys upstream or downstream to ‘foreign’ places to conduct their violent raids. Indigenous cosmology equated such journeys with travel into remote areas populated by ‘aliens’, enemies or spirits, in contrast to their own village world populated by humans. The contradiction was that in real travel and journeys, ‘other’ villages were populated by creatures that looked human and seemed to be thriving or living just like one’s own ‘people’, but by cosmological definition could not be. Hence, perhaps they were perceived as ‘semi-human’. The rituals of headhunting and the focus on taking the head of someone from another village, according to structural analysis, helped resolve the contradiction in the following way.

By taking the head rather than some other part of the body back to one’s own village, warriors could incorporate the ‘enemy’ or ‘semi-human’ spirit into their own community of ‘humans’. Often, they gave the head a new name and treated it in ways that were friendly so as to persuade the spirit to join their community. The reason why the head (rather than some other part of the body) was chosen by Southeast Asians as the appropriate representational part of the victim is because the head contains the ‘face’. Faces are overt symbols of the individual as a social person. Furthermore, as noted in the rituals and myths of Southeast Asian tribal peoples who practiced headhunting until early in this century, the gods instructed them to take heads as a beneficent virtue that would enable them to increase the fertility of crops, humans, and to acquire other blessings from the ancestral and other sacred beings of the skyworld.

4. Emotions and the Life Cycle View – In 1968, Michelle Rosaldo began fieldwork among the Ilongot peoples of the northern Philippines. As anthropology graduate students from Harvard University, she and her husband Renato hoped to do a study of headhunting that would further the structuralist/religious views described above and provide new insights based on the fact that Ilongot had ceased headhunting only in early decades of the 20th century. Nine months into their fieldwork they realized that 65 of 70 adult men over the age of 20 years had taken at least one head. Surprised that headhunting was still of recent vintage, Michelle Rosaldo set out to find how such an otherwise ‘peaceful’ and friendly group of people could have engaged in such violent acts and how they explained it. In her conversations with Ilongot, she found no support for the explanations above. Ilongot did not say they hunted heads in order to recruit enemy souls into their ancestors’ armies in the skyworld, nor did they do it to turn ‘enemies’ into ‘friends’ and therefore resolve a structural/cosmological contradiction. In fact, they said they did not even bring the heads of their victims back to their home settlements. What they did say was that it was part of an emotional feeling: men said they took heads when they had a ‘heavy heart’ or felt angry or strong pressures.

Michelle Rosaldo returned to study the Ilongot in 1974, determined to study in more detail how personal and affective life is socially constructed and to understand how even common explanations (or ‘discourse’) requires an interpretive account. She focused on two indigenous Ilongot terms: liget (translated as ‘angry’ as opposed to passive, dull or fearful—hence ‘passion’ or creative energy); and beya (translated as ‘knowledge’, or that which controls one’s passion and emotions). Young men explained that headhunting gave them the right to gain the spirit of the beheaded victim, which then allowed them to wear hornbill earrings and have respect among their elders. It also enabled them to ask a woman to marry them. Her subsequent thorough investigations of the life cycle for men and women among Ilongot revealed that men have more passion than women as a result of their broader range of experiences and travel to distant places. In order to tame their passion, or ‘effectiveness’, taking another individual’s head quiets their spirit and restlessness, hence allowing knowledge and maturity to gain control and grow. The spirits of the victims remain with their killers and are harmless; they have nothing to do with fertility or prosperity. But the act of killing itself serves to excite envy and admiration among other youths, to increase one’s reputation among the elders, and enables one to attract a wife.

5. Ideological View – In many parts of contemporary Southeast Asia, headhunting is a part of the past preserved in narrative form. In some areas, headhunting rituals continue with a wooden substitute for a real human head, attempts to achieve the cosmological benefits of agricultural fertility outlined by Robert McKinley (above) without the violence long since outlawed by national laws. Among the Northern Kankana-ey of highland Luzon, for example, the dongtoy ritual is a headhunting rite still held every ten years or so (with a substitute head) in order to ensure the fertility of the rice crop.

Janet Hoskins conducted anthropological research on this topic in Sumba, Indonesia, and found that even on one island headhunting varied in practice and meaning. In East Sumba, headhunting reveals an ‘ideology of encompassment’, wherein heads were used as tokens of territorial conquest in battles between nobles. In West Sumba, headhunting rites display an ‘ideology of vendetta’ and were acts of revenge between equals. Today, the traditions of past headhunting also are constructed and understood in different ways in these two areas. In East Sumba, headhunting is a symbol of their history and their past; their defiance against colonial Dutch outsiders. In West Sumba, headhunting is a heritage that symbolizes and expresses local desires for some degree of autonomy vis-a-vis the modern nation of Indonesia. Hence, as a ritual and cosmological complex, headhunting has taken on different political meanings for different peoples, either as a symbol of popular resistance to outside control in the past (e.g., the heroic tradition of East Sumba), or as a symbol of contemporary desires and resistance to outside control today (West Sumba).

These five different views of headhunting are not irreconcilable, but speak to the very different experiences that Southeast Asian tribal peoples have had in different periods. As McKinley notes about headhunting in the past: "Although the headhunter on a raid was a treacherous and indiscriminate killer of men, women and children, there were at least some human as well as technological limits to the brutality of the system. His wars were waged in the mystical upstream and downstream regions against people who could provide links with the eternal powers of the gods and ancestors." The downfall, or limitation, was that "Outsiders could be fitted into this scheme only through violence."

In contemporary Southeast Asia, headhunting acquires a role which, as Hoskins (p.246) observes, "uses its rhetoric to raid the past for an imagery of fearless confrontations and enduring loyalties to traditional lands. These confrontations can now concern issues of local autonomy, and the preservation of tradition against the encroachments of church and state." And so while headhunting as a violent tradition and ritual or emotional complex has disappeared for the most part, it remains a vital part of the imagery of Southeast Asian peoples who practiced it until early in this century.

Primary References:

1. Robert McKinley, 1976 "Human and Proud of It! A Structural Treatment of Headhunting Rites and the Social Definition of Enemies". IN: Studies in Borneo Societies: Social Process and Anthropological Explanation, ed. G. N. Appell. Special Report No. 12. DeKalb, IL: Center for Southeast Asian Studies, Northern Illinois University.

2. Michelle Z. Rosaldo, 1980 Knowledge and Passion: Ilongot Notions of Self and Social Life. New York: Cambridge University Press.

3. Janet Hoskins, 1996 "The Heritage of Headhunting: History, Ideology, and Violence on Sumba, 1890-1990". IN: Headhunting and the Social Imagination in Southeast Asia, ed. Janet Hoskins. Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press.

Recommended Film: Bontoc Eulogy.

[A. G. Maisey]

Hornbill and Dragon (ISBN 979 8112 00 8) and Iban Art-sexual selection and severed heads-(ISBN 10 9054500050 ---additional ISBN's exist) have both been previously mentioned in this thread.

Hornbill and Dragon has a number of plates of hilts and names the tribe of origin.

Iban Art gives a very comprehensive explanation of the culture of and reasons for, the taking of heads.

Those with an interest in this topic would gain much from a reading of both books.

[migueldiaz]

Those with an interest in this topic would gain much from a reading of both books.Thanks! :)

Below are some of the pics amongst the very many, in Hornbill and Dragon (I'll add the captions later):

[migueldiaz]

More hilts:

[migueldiaz]

Some more hilts:

[migueldiaz]

More:

[migueldiaz]

Another batch, and in the book the pics were prefaced with "Such sophisticated pieces are not produced any longer":

[migueldiaz]

Yet another batch:

[Henk]

Wow! The book Hornbill and Dragon is a great wannahave. Unfortunately out of reach for common people like me. Is it somewhere on the internet so that we can make a print of it and make the book by ourself?

[A. G. Maisey]

I just been shocked!!!

I had a look in BOOKFINDER for Sellato's book.

I bought mine as a remainder in Bali some years back. At the time there were a heap of them unsold in a corner of the book store that used to be up on the 3rd floor of the Mata Hari department store in Kuta. I bought one.Forget what it cost, but it wasn't much.

Now I understand I should have bought all of them. If I had, I'd be driving around in a new Lexus next week.

[asomotif]

I had a look in BOOKFINDER for Sellato's book.

Yes, you should have bought all of them a few years back.
I bought mine 11 years ago in KK for 160 ringgit.
that was NLG 80,- which now translates to Eur 36,- :)

[David]

I just been shocked!!!

I had a look in BOOKFINDER for Sellato's book.

I bought mine as a remainder in Bali some years back. At the time there were a heap of them unsold in a corner of the book store that used to be up on the 3rd floor of the Mata Hari department store in Kuta. I bought one.Forget what it cost, but it wasn't much.

Now I understand I should have bought all of them. If I had, I'd be driving around in a new Lexus next week.
Yep, i checked out the same thing myself. The cheapest edition there was over $700 USD! :eek:

[migueldiaz]

The book was published by Elf Aquitaine (Indonesia & Malaysia office) in 1989. Elf merged with Total earlier. Maybe we should petition Total to reprint the book ...

The book is about 90% pics by the way, and all are great pics. But the text part is as engaging also.

Will post more pics related to the mandau and other blades.

PS - Thanks again to the good friend who lent me his copy :)

[migueldiaz]

In one of the black and white pics above, we notice that the tang is twisted or mangled. Would anybody know why is that? For better grip against the hilt perhaps? Thanks.

[migueldiaz]

[Dear Admin, I tried replacing the pics in my above post nos. 16, 17, 18, and 19 with ones with captions (per below). But the system won't allow me anymore. Thus, can we please just delete said post nos. 16 to 19? Thanks!]

[migueldiaz]

Reposted, with captions:

[migueldiaz]

Another set reposted, this time with captions ...

[migueldiaz]

Borneo's ethnolinguistic map:

[migueldiaz]

Some more pics ...

[Mytribalworld]

here some more handles....

[migueldiaz]

mandaukudi, nice set! thanks.

here's some more from the dragon and hornbill book:

[migueldiaz]

another set:

[migueldiaz]

last set:

[migueldiaz]

but wait, there's more ... ok this is really the final :)

[VANDOO]

THIS IS THE KIND OF POST I LIKE :D LOTS OF PICTURES OF EXAMPLES AND FORMS AS WELL AS INFORMATION AND IN SOME CASES IDENTIFICATION AS TO TRIBE. THIS MAKES FOR A GOOD REFRENCE FROM WHICH TO LEARN AND TO COMPARE OUR ITEMS TO FOR A POSSIBLE I.D.
I WILL ADD SOME PICTURES I HAVE ON FILE OF VARIOUS AND UNIQUE FORMS. FIRST THE FORM I REFER TO AS FORKED POMMEL FORMS THE ONLY ONE PICTURED SO FAR IN THIS POST WAS I.D. AS KENYAH BUT I HAVE NO IDEA IF THESE WILL BE FROM THE SAME TRIBE.
THERE WILL BE A PICTURE OF TWO HANDLES ONE WOOD AND ONE ANTLER SAID TO BE FROM THE BUSANG. AND ANOTHER PICTURE WITH TWO HANDLES SAID TO BE KAYAN.

[VANDOO]

HERE ARE A FEW MORE UNUSUAL MANDAU HANDLE FORMS FROM THE FILES. FEEL FREE TO PLACE AN I.D. AS TO TRIBE ON ANY YOU CAN. :D
ONE OF THE HANDLES LOOKS MORE BATAK STYLE BUT HAD A MANDAU BLADE AND THEY WERE IN THE AREA. THE HANDLE WITH SKULLS AND A SNAKE HEAD MAY OR MAY NOT BE DAYAK WORK BUT DID HAVE A MANDAU BLADE AND WAS REPRESENTED AS DAYAK. IT IS UNUSUAL BUT MAY BE A MORE RECENT MADE FOR TOURISTS ITEM OR THE REAL DEAL?. I PERSONALLY THINK ITS LIKELY WW2 OR MORE RECENT. SOME FINE HANDLES ARE STILL CARVED TODAY BUT SOME ARE FROM BALI OR OTHER AREAS NO DOUBT AND WITHOUT PROVENANCE OR THE ITEM IN HAND ITS OFTEN VERY DIFFICULT TO TELL. THESE ARE POSTED BECAUSE THEY ARE UNUSUAL OR FINE WORKMANSHIP OR BOTH.

[VANDOO]

A FEW MORE AND I WILL STOP :D , ONE HANDLE APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN CARVED OUT OF GREEN HORN WHICH IS SOMETIMES SEEN ON OTHER WEAPONS MOSTLY EUROPEAN, PERSIAN AND INDIAN. ONE PICTURE HAS TWO HANDLES ONE BUSANG AND ONE KENYAH.

[asomotif]

Recent addition / example of a hilt with malay/muslim influences / floral motifs

[David]

A FEW MORE AND I WILL STOP :D , ONE HANDLE APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN CARVED OUT OF GREEN HORN WHICH IS SOMETIMES SEEN ON OTHER WEAPONS MOSTLY EUROPEAN, PERSIAN AND INDIAN. ONE PICTURE HAS TWO HANDLES ONE BUSANG AND ONE KENYAH.
Gee Barry, i was going to post one of mine and suddenly there it was in your post. Amazing! ;) :D

[VANDOO]

SORRY ABOUT THAT DAVID, :D
THE BAD NEWS IS I BEAT YOU TO IT, THE GOOD NEWS IS YOU OWN ONE THAT I CONSIDER UNUSUAL AND SUPER COOL. CONGRADULATIONS!! :cool:
A SECOND PICTURE WITH MORE INFORMATION ON YOUR MANDAU WOULDN'T BE OUT OF PLACE HERE.
I AM ESPECIALLY CURIOUS ABOUT THE HILT THAT APPEARS TO BE GREEN HORN.

[asomotif]

A SECOND PICTURE WITH MORE INFORMATION ON YOUR MANDAU WOULDN'T BE OUT OF PLACE HERE.
And a picture of the blade would be nice to. :)
This hilt is very unusual. Makes me think of Bayu handles, but the base of the blade does not look Bayu to me.

Best regards,
Willem

[migueldiaz]

More images, from the book Iban Art, by Heppell et al. --

[migueldiaz]

Some more, from the same book ...

[migueldiaz]

Another one, from the same book --

[migueldiaz]

Another set, from same book --

[migueldiaz]

Second to the last, from same book --

[migueldiaz]

Last set from the said book --

[Mytribalworld]

Last set from the said book --

Not To temper the enthousiasme but what suprises me that nobody seems to notiche that a lot of these photo's have been still unther authorslaw.. :(

[migueldiaz]

Not To temper the enthousiasme but what suprises me that nobody seems to notiche that a lot of these photo's have been still unther authorslaw.. :(Hello Arjan,

Thanks for the comments.

In case you are referring to the propriety of posting photos from books, copyrighted material can actually be circulated in the Internet and elsewhere under the fair use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) concept --

Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as for commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship ...

In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

- the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

- the nature of the copyrighted work;

- the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

- the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
In my humble opinion thus, the posting of the pics from books in this forum in general, and in this thread in particular, fall under such rule.

This is just my two cents, and hope others can share their opinion, too. And a legal opinion would certainly be most welcome, also, as all of us here for sure are mindful of these things :)

Best regards.

[kai]

Hello Arjan,

AFAIK, comparing pics for ethnographic (academic) discussions is covered by the "fair use" policy (exempt from copyright).

Regards,
Kai

[Mytribalworld]

Hello Arjan,

Thanks for the comments.

In case you are referring to the propriety of posting photos from books, copyrighted material can actually be circulated in the Internet and elsewhere under the fair use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) concept --

Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as for commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship ...

In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

- the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

- the nature of the copyrighted work;

- the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

- the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
In my humble opinion thus, the posting of the pics from books in this forum in general, and in this thread in particular, fall under such rule.

This is just my two cents, and hope others can share their opinion, too. And a legal opinion would certainly be most welcome, also, as all of us here for sure are mindful of these things :)

Best regards.


Hi Miguel.

Maybe you are rigth but I think its very close to the laws borders then.
This forum is a public forum and is free to watch for everyone.

The free share is mostly for use in non public areas.

regards, Arjan

[VANDOO]

I PERSONALLY DON'T FEEL GUILTY OR THAT I AM STEALING ANYTHING FROM THE AUTHORS. INDEED IT JUST MAKES ME WISH I COULD OWN ONE OF THESE BOOKS. I HAVE TRIED TO OBTAIN A COPY OF HORNBILL AND DRAGON FOR MANY YEARS NOW AND AS THE PRICE IS NOW OUT OF MY RANGE MUST BE CONTENT TO SEE SUCH PICTURES AS COME UP ON THE FORUM. PERHAPS SOMEDAY THERE WILL BE A REPRINT AT A PRICE THOSE OF US WITH LIMITED CASH CAN AFFORD.
THE DOWN SIDE IS NOW I SEE PICTURES FROM ANOTHER BOOK I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE, I WILL NOW LOOK IT UP TO SEE IF IT IS AVAILABLE AND IN MY PRICE RANGE. SO IN A WAY THIS IS FREE ADVERTIZING FOR THESE BOOKS TO AN AUDIENCE WHO WILL BE LIKELY TO WANT TO BUY THE BOOKS. SO I CONSIDER IT A POSITIVE THING. :D

[migueldiaz]

Hi Miguel. Maybe you are rigth but I think its very close to the laws borders then. This forum is a public forum and is free to watch for everyone. The free share is mostly for use in non public areas. regards, ArjanHello Arjan, thanks for the comments! :)

And thanks again for bringing up this important topic on copyrighted materials vis-a-vis their sharing publicly.

Setting aside the legalities for the moment, I think one other (and perhaps even more important) aspect is the test of good faith.

Long story short, all of the members in this forum when they cite info or post photos of others' works do so in good faith (that is, without any malice aforethought). Hence we all pass this aspect with flying colors :)

Back to the technical aspect, and this is just my understanding -- the sharing and use of copyrighted materials under the fair use concept may and usually involve their public broadcasting.

Kindly note please that the use of copyrighted materials under fair use is for "criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship".

Once again, this is just my own interpretation of the principle, as we've actually tackled this point in the past in this forum. Hence I took the time then to study the matter.

I PERSONALLY DON'T FEEL GUILTY OR THAT I AM STEALING ANYTHING FROM THE AUTHORS. INDEED IT JUST MAKES ME WISH I COULD OWN ONE OF THESE BOOKS. I HAVE TRIED TO OBTAIN A COPY OF HORNBILL AND DRAGON FOR MANY YEARS NOW AND AS THE PRICE IS NOW OUT OF MY RANGE MUST BE CONTENT TO SEE SUCH PICTURES AS COME UP ON THE FORUM. PERHAPS SOMEDAY THERE WILL BE A REPRINT AT A PRICE THOSE OF US WITH LIMITED CASH CAN AFFORD.
THE DOWN SIDE IS NOW I SEE PICTURES FROM ANOTHER BOOK I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE, I WILL NOW LOOK IT UP TO SEE IF IT IS AVAILABLE AND IN MY PRICE RANGE. SO IN A WAY THIS IS FREE ADVERTIZING FOR THESE BOOKS TO AN AUDIENCE WHO WILL BE LIKELY TO WANT TO BUY THE BOOKS. SO I CONSIDER IT A POSITIVE THING. :DVandoo, I think you hit the nail right in the head, once again :)

Of the four guidelines of fair use, I think the 4th criteria ("the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work") is the most important to the person whose work is being reproduced.

And precisely when portions of an author's work is posted in forums, talked about in blogs, passed along in Facebook, etc., then the potential market increases, and the value per se of the work rises.

So Vandoo, it's the author who should feel guilty if he or she gets free publicity and yet you and I don't get anything out of it ;) :D

Some day I plan to write a book on Phil. weapons.

And I'd be the happiest person on earth if many people will post pics in forums from my book, or somebody will quote a block of text from the same, among other means of spreading the info that such a book actually exists and it was made by mister so and so :)

But that's just me, but I have a feeling that other would-be authors would share this sentiment.

Truly this is a very relevant topic, and I personally thank Arjan once again for bringing this up.

Best wishes to all ...

[Mytribalworld]

Hello Arjan, thanks for the comments! :)

And thanks again for bringing up this important topic on copyrighted materials vis-a-vis their sharing publicly.

Setting aside the legalities for the moment, I think one other (and perhaps even more important) aspect is the test of good faith.

Long story short, all of the members in this forum when they cite info or post photos of others' works do so in good faith (that is, without any malice aforethought). Hence we all pass this aspect with flying colors :)

Back to the technical aspect, and this is just my understanding -- the sharing and use of copyrighted materials under the fair use concept may and usually involve their public broadcasting.

Kindly note please that the use of copyrighted materials under fair use is for "criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship".

Once again, this is just my own interpretation of the principle, as we've actually tackled this point in the past in this forum. Hence I took the time then to study the matter.

Vandoo, I think you hit the nail right in the head, once again :)

Of the four guidelines of fair use, I think the 4th criteria ("the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work") is the most important to the person whose work is being reproduced.

And precisely when portions of an author's work is posted in forums, talked about in blogs, passed along in Facebook, etc., then the potential market increases, and the value per se of the work rises.

So Vandoo, it's the author who should feel guilty if he or she gets free publicity and yet you and I don't get anything out of it ;) :D

Some day I plan to write a book on Phil. weapons.

And I'd be the happiest person on earth if many people will post pics in forums from my book, or somebody will quote a block of text from the same, among other means of spreading the info that such a book actually exists and it was made by mister so and so :)

But that's just me, but I have a feeling that other would-be authors would share this sentiment.

Truly this is a very relevant topic, and I personally thank Arjan once again for bringing this up.

Best wishes to all ...


Hi Miquel,

The rigth answer in these cases will be anywhere in the mid I think. Copyrigth material is always a grey area and certainly in these modern times its getting at least "old Fashioned"

Of course I believe in the good trust of all forumities but realize also that write a book about a specific subject mostly cost money and slurps an enourmous lot of time.
Funny that just today a bill comes in here from our royal museum for the publication of just 4 photo's and that only cost me 180 euro.
I think the other museum that I contacted will als charge me also something for their pics.

I mostly not childish with sharing info but I don't think we speak about "fair share" if someone pays hunderds of euro's while other just copy and paste ( print)

On the other way its indeed impossible to discuss an object without sharing pics so I think when its a kind of limited use a writer wouldn't care.
But take care that we not list complete bookchapters online, it would temper the authors enthousiasme ;)

[migueldiaz]

Hi Miquel,

The rigth answer in these cases will be anywhere in the mid I think. Copyrigth material is always a grey area and certainly in these modern times its getting at least "old Fashioned"

Of course I believe in the good trust of all forumities but realize also that write a book about a specific subject mostly cost money and slurps an enourmous lot of time.
Funny that just today a bill comes in here from our royal museum for the publication of just 4 photo's and that only cost me 180 euro.
I think the other museum that I contacted will als charge me also something for their pics.

I mostly not childish with sharing info but I don't think we speak about "fair share" if someone pays hunderds of euro's while other just copy and paste ( print)

On the other way its indeed impossible to discuss an object without sharing pics so I think when its a kind of limited use a writer wouldn't care.
But take care that we not list complete bookchapters online, it would temper the authors enthousiasme ;)Thanks for the comments, Arjan. And all of your points are well taken! :)

On another matter, me and my wife plan to go to Spain, perhaps around September. And we plan to visit the Leiden museum to check out the southeast Asian items there. Do they allow photographing of the display?

Also, would there be other Dutch museums aside from Leiden where a good collection of Philippine or Bornean and Indonesian artifacts can be seen?

Thanks in advance and best wishes!

[Mytribalworld]

Thanks for the comments, Arjan. And all of your points are well taken! :)

On another matter, me and my wife plan to go to Spain, perhaps around September. And we plan to visit the Leiden museum to check out the southeast Asian items there. Do they allow photographing of the display?

Also, would there be other Dutch museums aside from Leiden where a good collection of Philippine or Bornean and Indonesian artifacts can be seen?

Thanks in advance and best wishes!


I believe that you are free to take pics in the museum.

You should see the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam also , but keep in mind that both museums have only highlights in their permanent exebition.
certainly worth to see, but to give an "Mandau example" Leiden show 1 mandau in their permanent exebition and thats not even the most attractive one ( from around 1940 or so and a gift to Tom Harrisson)

The whole exebition however gives a good idea of the total ethnograhpical treasures in Indonesia.

For Phillippine stuff you will not find much, its better to visit the Spanish museums for that.

here the sites: www.tropenmuseum.nl
www.rmv.nl


another small but nice museum is Nusantara in the very nice City of Delft here the site http://www.nusantara-delft.nl/en

[Maurice]

Here a link to my online photo-album of the images I made in the Tropenmuseum some time ago....(not all that sharp, cause it is hard to take sharp pictures in a museum, with the lights and the glass).

http://picasaweb.google.nl/mbloebaum/TropenmuseumExpoIndonesia?authkey=Gv1sRgCO2tqf_Nyr qVugE&fgl=true&pli=1#

Arjan is right, not much moro stuff to be seen! :-(
But all the museums mentioned are worth visiting!

Maurice

[migueldiaz]

You should see the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam also ... For Phillippine stuff you will not find much, its better to visit the Spanish museums for that. here the sites: www.tropenmuseum.nl www.rmv.nl ... another small but nice museum is Nusantara in the very nice City of Delft here the site http://www.nusantara-delft.nl/enArjan, many thanks once again! I appreciate it. :) Nusantara is closed at the moment according to their website ... hope it opens by Sept.

Here a link to my online photo-album of the images I made in the Tropenmuseum some time ago....(not all that sharp, cause it is hard to take sharp pictures in a museum, with the lights and the glass).Maurice, many thanks also for the pics as well as for the comments :)

[Andrew]

My considered legal opinion is that the posting of photos and/or published works on this forum for non-commercial purposes is, indeed, "fair use". Credit for authorship, owner or copyright holder should be provided, of course, and reproduction of entire works is something to avoid.

Let's try not to get mired in legal discussions which are tangential to the topic at hand--ethnographic weapons. :cool:

Andrew

[David]

Thanks Andrew. :)

[migueldiaz]

Thanks, too, Andrew for the clarification :)

[Mytribalworld]

Thanks, too, Andrew for the clarification :)

Yeah, me too thanks Andrew ! :D