Malay (?) keris from Ebay

[Gustav]

Dear All,

this one just ended on Ebay. It interested me, becouse I have never seen a Malay(?) sandang walikat sheet. Also the hilt form (Hulu Burung Serindit (?)) is not often seen.

The blade seems to be in very good condition (if it is old).

[Gustav]

The hilt and sheath (Not so much patina?).

[Marcokeris]

:) very good...i like a lot the hit, but also sarong and the blade seem nice (pamor tritik?)

[A. G. Maisey]

I could be much more certain of my following comments were I to have this keris in my hand, however, here are my immediate impressions:-

1)--- blade is very recent Madura

2)--- hilt is recent Madura production

3)--- scabbard is an old one that has been reshaped to a sandang walikat form, and the piece of horn added to the top to allow perfect fitting of a blade that does not belong with this scabbard.

This appears to be a recent, high class and deliberate attempt to decieve.

[Rick]

Hi Alan, the clues that triggered your impressions ; would you care to elaborate for our edification ? :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Blade:- if it looks like a duck, it is a duck, and I've seen thousands of this particular breed of duck. This is not an exaggeration.

Handle:- I've seen this hilt motif in new hilts from Madura, and it looks like Sumenep work, but I'm not nearly so certain of this as I am of the blade; it could probably come from anywhere where good quality carving is still done.

Scabbard:- I've seen the horn glued to the top of the wrongko to ensure good fit a few times, but never on anything old; the actual wood itself looks oldish, it may not have originally been a keris scabbard, but something else; the ivory buntut is perfect and obviously new, normally they're patinated and with a crack or two.

As always when looking at pics, I could be wrong --- but overall I don't think I am. I tend to automatically distrust anything I have not seen before, and I've never seen anything at all like this. With all the keris I have seen and handled, I should have, if it is a genuine type.

[DAHenkel]

This keris is Peninsular. Almost certainly Terengganu and probably dating to the 40's or 50's. The hilt is known as a hulu burung serindit. The pamor of the blade is gigi hiu (shark's tooth). Sheath is made from angsana wood with a tanduk seladang (wild buffalo horn) throat. Hilt appears to be gigi (walrus ivory) but could be elephant. The sheath is extraordinary - I've seen more than a few of the so called "sandang walaikat" sheaths from Teregganu but all have been sundangs. This is the first normal keris I've seen with a s/w sheath. That said, I've seen maybe 3 or 4 examples of this hilt form and dozens of the pendokok in Terengganu examples. The blade also, while unusual in quality is not beyond the capability of the Malay pandai.

Note also that the keris was offered with two other better than average Peninsular pieces. A panjang with a typical Peninsular blade and another keris that appears to be an old Bugis example but with a classic Peninsular hilt.

Sorry Alan, all due respect but this is no more Madurese than I am. ;)

[David]

This keris is Peninsular. Almost certainly Terengganu and probably dating to the 40's or 50's. The hilt is known as a hulu burung serindit. The pamor of the blade is gigi hiu (shark's tooth). Sheath is made from angsana wood with a tanduk seladang (wild buffalo horn) throat. Hilt appears to be gigi (walrus ivory) but could be elephant. The sheath is extraordinary - I've seen more than a few of the so called "sandang walaikat" sheaths from Teregganu but all have been sundangs. This is the first normal keris I've seen with a s/w sheath. That said, I've seen maybe 3 or 4 examples of this hilt form and dozens of the pendokok in Terengganu examples. The blade also, while unusual in quality is not beyond the capability of the Malay pandai.

Note also that the keris was offered with two other better than average Peninsular pieces. A panjang with a typical Peninsular blade and another keris that appears to be an old Bugis example but with a classic Peninsular hilt.

Sorry Alan, all due respect but this is no more Madurese than I am. ;)
Hi Dave, it's nice to know that you are still lurking around here. :)
It's nice to get your perspective as someone deeply involved in Peninsula keris. I was also wondering about Alan's assessment, but frankly both you and he know more than i do so i wait to hear opinions. I also thought this was Peninsula work as well as i have never seen anything with this much Peninsula style coming out of Madura, but Alan has seen soooo much more of what comes out of Madura so i don't want to second guess him. :shrug:

[Gustav]

Three more pics of the Hulu.

[Sajen]

I think that the rare hilt form and the rare sheat have been the reason that this keris reach such a high price. The hilt material seems to be from hippo ivory (see the attached picture, the black spots along a line are clearly to seen). This is also the reason why this hilt don't show to much patina since this material keep long time the white surface.

[Marcokeris]

I think that the rare hilt form and the rare sheat have been the reason that this keris reach such a high price. The hilt material seems to be from hippo ivory (see the attached picture, the black spots along a line are clearly to seen). This is also the reason why this hilt don't show to much patina since this material keep long time the white surface.
Another very nice parrot hit.
This is one i don't have in my collection...( in Indonesia is very difficult to find this Malay hit) :shrug:

[Gustav]

Hilt is the same. I just had difficulties to upload this picture, Sajen managed it.

An old thread about this form: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=459&highlight=burung+hulu

[Sajen]

Another very nice parrot hit.
This is one i don't have in my collection...( in Indonesia is very difficult to find this Malay hit) :shrug:


Marco, this hilt is from the keris in question, unfortunately not mine.

[Marcokeris]

Sorry Gustav and Sajen you are right :o
This kind of hit is also possible to see in mrs. Ghiringhelli work (arts of asia). Also in mr. Sharhum Yub's book (keris & other short weapons) there is this kind of hit.... and in many other works (mr. C. Le Dauphin, mr. Kerner M, mr Harsrinuksmo B, ...)

[asomotif]

This one is depicted in David van duuren's "the Keris" and can be found on the website of the tropenmuseum under nr 3583.
+ picture comparing the two

[A. G. Maisey]

Welcome back Dave!

We haven't seen you for a long time, and it so good to hear you voicing your opinions again.

I really appreciate your input on this keris, because without it, I would not have taken the trouble to track down the original listing and the photos shown in it. The copied images that are published here are probably as good as copied images can be, but the originals in ebay are much more clear, and have given me an improved perspective.

In this keris there is one really outstanding feature, and that is the method in which the pamor has been worked, the topographic relief of the pamor, and the presentation of the blade.

This working method and treatment is so common in Madura blades as to be almost a copyrighted trade mark.
To produce pamor of this type, the maker needs very considerable experience in producing heavily surface manipulated pamor. He needs years of experience, and he needs to have produced many blades with exactly this same type of pamor as the one we see in this blade under discussion.

This blade has very well executed pamor. The man who made this blade had made many more of exactly the same pamor. This one was not his first, and it was not a one off.

This being the case, I believe it would be reasonable to expect that somewhere, at some time, over the last 50 odd years I would have seen a similar blade, or photograph of a blade, that was able to be attributed to a region other than Madura, but I have not. All blades of this type and quality that I have ever seen were indisputably produced in Madura, or by Madura craftsmen working in another area.

Admittedly, my on-the-ground experience is mostly in Jawa, Madura and Bali. I freely admit that my practical knowledge in keris from other areas is deficient. Because of this deficiency, I cannot argue against the possibility that this blade comes from the Peninsula, but from the available images I am absolutely immovable in my opinion that I am looking at a type of forge work, bench work, and surface preparation, with which I am extremely familiar, and that is Madura work.

If we wish to place it in the Peninsula, perhaps the first thing we should do is to try to place it within a period, and then to identify the makers working during that period who were capable of the production of this pamor. It is possible that this could be the production of a Madura maker working in another area. I stress "possible".

I do not have particularly detailed knowledge of Peninsula makers, but I have seen photographs of blades produced in the Peninsula during the last 50 years or so, and I have yet to see any work that even approaches the quality of this blade.

Fifty years takes us back to mid-20th century.

I doubt that any keris making was being done in the Peninsula in the period between about 1940 and 1950.

But whoever made this blade had been producing blades with similar pamor and of similar quality for a long time. So that takes us back to pre-1940.

I am under the impression that pre-1940 Peninsula blades were not given heavy treatment with sulphur and salt, but I believe that it is clear from the images that this blade is both recent --- note the clear file marks --- and heavily etched and stained to display topographic relief :- both traits that are the norm in Madura and Javanese blades, but I understand, extremely rare in Peninsula blades. In fact, respected people with much more knowledge than I have in the keris of the Peninsula have assured me that this practice is virtually unknown to the Peninsula keris.

So, if it was not produced in the Peninsula during the last 50 years, and it displays characteristics that are usually associated with keris produced in Madura and Jawa, but not usually associated with keris produced in the Peninsula in the period prior to 1940, then where do we think it might have been produced?

Either pre-1940 blades produced in the Peninsula were heavily etched to give topographic relief, and then stained with arsenic, a proposition that appears to be in conflict with the established wisdom, or this blade was produced in a place other than the Peninsula, and very likely at a date considerably later than 1940.

Dave, you tell us that it is most definitely not a Madura blade.

I thank you for your opinion, and I respect that opinion as it has been produced by your experience in a particular sphere, a sphere in which I have very limited experience.

However, my opinion remains that this blade does display characteristics that mark it as the production of a Madura craftsman, and I base that opinion upon my own experience in this same sphere which I believe gave this blade birth.

Dave, I do not seek your agreement, and I have absolutely no wish to try to change your opinion, I merely want much more convincing argument from you to assist in the alteration of my own opinion.



There is one small matter that I feel we must clarify:-

At no time have I claimed that this entire keris was a Madura production.

I only claim the blade as Madura.

I am of the opinion that the scabbard is not original to this blade and has been fitted with a new ivory buntut in the not too far distant past, and that the horn strip along the top of the scabbard has been added to it to permit the neat fitting of a blade to a scabbard with a mouth too big for this blade. This is not incompatible with the origin of this scabbard being originally for a larger blade. Dave mentions that he has seen this type of scabbard used for large Malay keris, and so have I, but never for a normal size keris.

Further to this matter of the horn strip. Consider for a moment if this could have been fitted without the use of modern adhesives, especially with such a neat joint. In the scabbards that I have handled that have used this method of a horn strip glued to the top of the wrongko to conceal a large wrongko mouth, all have dated from very recent times; I have never seen this method used in an older blade fitting. This piece of horn is not a very old addition to this scabbard. And the buntut has recently been put in place.

I have already said that I am uncertain of origin of the hilt.
In about 1993 I was offered a hilt that could have been the exact mate of this one, except that it did not have red eyes. I was offered this hilt in Sumenep, and it was newly carved by a Madura carver. The material was elephant ivory.

I believe the material in the hilt under discussion is also elephant ivory, as in the Ebay images, the underlying matrix typical of elephant ivory can be clearly seen; the black dotted line in this hilt is probably the nerve canal, I have elephant ivory hilts which display this same characteristic.

Over the years I have seen other hilts of this same design, but of lesser quality, all coming from Madura. However, I am more than willing to accept that this hilt under discussion could have been carved elsewhere, as this particular expression of the form is not originally Madurese. I am also more than willing to accept that this is an old hilt. My immediate impression was that this was a recently produced hilt, however the much more clear images in the Ebay listing have permitted me to revise this opinion.
One thing is certain, the pendongkok is most definitely not from Jawa or Madura.

I don't really like theorizing much, but I am going to put forward a possible theory for this particular keris. I believe that it is probable that this blade was produced in Madura, possibly to special order, it was taken to either the Peninsula or Singapore, and fitted with the ivory hilt and old scabbard. I believe the pendongkok to be a very recent piece of work, probably made specifically for this hilt. I doubt that the mating would have been done in Jawa, because keris of this type do not attract particularly high prices on the Javanese market, additionally, the type of pendongkok used is not seen in Jawa. If I had to back anywhere as a point of assemblage of this keris, it would be Singapore.

But I'm only playing the "theory game" here, so other nominations for the point of assembly might be quite entertaining.

Here is a link to the original ebay listing. The images here are quite clear and informative:-


http://cgi.ebay.com/Fine-early-Indonesian-Kris-One-of-the-finest-Pamor_W0QQitemZ150420398383QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAsia n_Antiques?hash=item2305c1212f

[Sajen]

Here is a picture from a german site how to identify different sorts of ivory. The picture shows a cross-section through a hippo tooth.

[BluErf]

The pendoko is classic Terengganu style. The buntut style is also Northern Malay Peninsula. The hilt form is also in classic Terengganu style, not at all uncommon. I would say the keris is not likely assembled in Singapore, but in Northern Malay Peninsula where all the craftsmen for these parts reside.

The main sheath is really unusual, so is the horn fitting at the mouth, so I have no comments for that.

The blade does look N. Malay Peninsula (in fact, Terengganu) to me. So does the pamor. There are a number of N. Malay Peninsula blades with such pamor. In fact, it is one of the few pamor types found on N. Malay Peninsula blades. Perhaps there was a transfer of technique/technology at some point in time from Madura/elsewhere to N. Malay Peninsula. If this blade were to be presented to keris collectors in the N. Malay Peninsula, I don't think it would be identified as an unusual keris.

But of course, we can never be sure if such kerises were made elsewhere and exported to N. Malay Peninsula. After all, people move, trade moves. :)

I think the sharing of opinions is good and provides fresh perspective to examine things we see commonly and have come to accept without questioning.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your input on this Kai Wee.

The reason I mentioned Singapore is because I've seen a lot of newly made pendongkok of this style used on keris that were supposedly assembled in Singapore.

Of course, I cannot know where it was put together, I can only draw on my limited experience and knowledge in this area and draw conclusions.

These conclusions can always be wrong. One of the reasons why I don't like theorising, you can finish up with egg all over your face.

Still, for me, there is really only one issue here, and that is blade origin.

If I took this blade and mixed it with a couple of hundred current era Madura blades, neither I, nor any other person who is familiar with the keris trade in Jawa, would or could distinguish this blade from the rest of the Madura blades. It would fit right in with the rest of the blades, and become invisible.

I know for a fact that since the late 1980's Madura makers have produced Bugis and Peninsula style blades both on a speculative basis and on a special order basis. The ones I have seen that were produced on special order were faultless in respect of form, only the difference in material and working technique/ presentation, gave them away.

The horn addition to the wrongko is a recent practice, it is not possible unless modern glues are used, and I have seen several keris fitted to wrongkos with this addition that did originate in Singapore.

I'm probably wrong, but from where I sit, using only that which I know to be true, and lacking the detailed knowledge of you and Dave, and some other people, this keris says "Singapore" to me, even though it is stylistically N.E. Peninsula.

In respect of the hilt, quite frankly, I am uncertain where this hilt originates. I've seen various attributions in published works, you tell me its classic Trengganu. I had an email and a phone call just this morning from two people whose opinions I must respect who gave two different locations for origin. All the hilts using this motif, but in marginally different interpretations, that I have handled, were Madura.

I'm prepared to believe anything that anybody tells me in respect of this hilt origin, until there is some really solid evidence that nails origin to one particular geographic location.

But for the purposes of discussion in this thread, lets just accept that it is classic Trengganu.

In respect of the pamor.

You tell me that to you it looks N. Malay.

I cannot argue with that, but to me it looks absolutely classic current era Madura. Maybe if I had it in my hand I could note differences that would tell me it was not CE Madura, but working only on the published images, this blade would disappear if mixed with a number of other similar Madura blades.

And CE Madura blades are present in quite a lot of recently put together keris that have been presented as old and original Peninsula.

[BluErf]

This thread is interesting. Reminds me of the Malaysia-Indonesia dispute over who invented certain common food recipe. :) I think cultural, political and trade cross-links in this archipelago can make things really confusing after a while.

[A. G. Maisey]

I couldn't agree more, Kai Wee.

When you read the history of the empus (Silsilah Empu Tanah Jawa) you find mention of various of them wandering all over the place.

Then you've got all those Bugis traders and the people they carried with them, including Australian Aboriginal people back to Sulawesi.

Then there's the trade that from Majapahit times reached as far as Southern India.

The modern country borders are a false construct. I personally like to think of this entire area as maritime south east Asia.

[David]

Well, you all probably know that i don't tend to post images of my blades on this forum all too often, but this question really is interesting to me and i feel the need to post this one to help us reach a better understanding on this subject. I have always assumed that this blade was from the peninsula. The man i got it from is an old collector who collected it many years back, i believe in the late 60s or early 70s. It indeed has topographical relief, though not as pronounced as this first example. I did not photograph it to excentuate the relief, but i think you can see it clearly in the photos.
So what do we all think the origin of this keris is? Peninsula or Madura? :shrug:

[A. G. Maisey]

Not at all like any Madura blade I've ever seen, David, also the cross section is Bugis.Pamor is not Madura in either construction or execution.

I do not know exactly where it is from, but in my experience, not Madura.

[BluErf]

This has to be Terengganu. All parts of it. :) Almost a brother to one of my kerises, except that the blade is a sepokal.

[Gustav]

just for comparison.

[David]

Thank you Alan and Kai Wee for your responses. Terengganu is where i had thought this keris was from, but when Alan expressed that respected people on this subject had suggested to him that this kind of topographic relief pamor is virtually unknown from this area it raised a serious question with me about it's origin. Ultimately where it is from would not effect my liking for this keris, but it is an important piece of information that i would like to have correct about any keris i own if possible. :)

[Gustav]

File marks seem also to be not unusual, becouse of the resharpening praktice.

[David]

File marks seem also to be not unusual, becouse of the resharpening praktice.
I am not aware of any resharpening practice. Can you elaborate?

[Gustav]

As I understand it, in bugis influenced regions some value is put also on the sharpness of the edges, so the blades were sometimes resharpened. I mean, I can see some resharpening (or file) work also on your blade.

Anybody please correct me, if this is wrong.

[Gustav]

Has anybody seen this one alive? Is this a documentated sundang? If yes, what about the age of fittings? It seems to have a sheath mouth from other material.

The other one (excuse me please for using your picture, VVV) also.

[David]

As I understand it, in bugis influenced regions some value is put also on the sharpness of the edges, so the blades were sometimes resharpened. I mean, I can see some resharpening (or file) work also on your blade.

Anybody please correct me, if this is wrong.
I could be wrong, but i think any file marks that may be visible were part of the origin shaping of this keris. :shrug:

[Gustav]

You are most probably wright, David. :) The edges on greneng and kembang kacang are not really worn; this keris never needed resharpening, becouse it's probably very near to the original condition. What was my point, is the possibility of a visible file work on a non-Madura piece.

I ask me, if the sheath of the "initial" keris, if it's something older, would be not to small for any sundang at the mouth (maybe not for a sundang patrem :) ), the keris in it should be not to large (32,3 cm length from Ebay description).

Of course the sheath could be reshaped at the mouth and shortened (it would be the answer for the possibly new buntut), and this must leave signs. Are they visible on this sheath?

I suppose, it would be less complicated to make a new sheath then recarve a sundang sheath to this size.

[BluErf]

The horn strip at the mouth of the scabbard is a commonly seen occurrence for Malay sundangs in the 'sandang walikat' sheaths.

[Gustav]

Is this an older praktice? How are they fitted to the wood?

[A. G. Maisey]

You've given some valuable information here Kai Wee.

Until I read your post I had a somewhat different idea regarding the horn strip at a scabbard's mouth.

I have not seen nearly as many Malay sundangs as you would have seen, but I have seen more than a few.

I have never seen this horn strip at the mouth of a sundang scabbard.

All the Malay sundangs I have seen have been very old, and most have been in the collection of one old time collector.

I've come across the horn strip a few times, and invariably it has been an addition that permitted a blade to be fitted neatly to a scabbard that had not been made specifically for it.

In all the cases I have seen, that horn strip was fitted with a modern adhesive. That adhesive appeared to be two part epoxy resin in most cases, but I have also seen what appeared to be a super glue, probably Alteco, and what appeared to be a modern wood glue, PVA.

I have never seen a horn strip attached with the traditional fish based glue that was used in SE Asia, nor with shellac, nor with a natural resin, damar.

So, when you tell us that this horn strip often appears at the mouth of a sundang scabbard, do you mean that you have seen it on old, obviously original scabbards, or is it something that is frequently done in modern times to achieve a neat fit, as is the case with keris scabbards for normal sized keris?

If you have seen it used on old, obviously original scabbards, have you been able to identify the adhesive, and method of attachment that was used?

It occurs to me that if this was an old-time practice used for ornamentation, rather than for concealment of an ill-fitting scabbard mouth, a bond with fish glue could be obtained by inletting tongues carved to the base of a thick piece of horn, and these tongues let into the top of the wrongko. If this was done, we could expect to see some old scabbards where the horn strip has been lost, exposing the hole for the tongue. I've never seen this, but you may have, and if you have, this would verify that this horn strip addition did exist prior to the advent of moderrn adhesives.

EDIT

I've noted that you specifically mention sundangs in sandang walikat scabbards..
I've never seen these, but apparently you have seen a considerable number, and Dave Henkel also mentions that they are not uncommon.
Just how frequently could we expect to encounter sundang in sandang walikat?

Are they common, or would we see perhaps ten normal scabbards for one sandang walikat?

Can you quantify frequency of occurrence of the sundang sandang walikat?

[rasdan]

G'day Alan,

I dont know much about this, but i had attached pictures of a sundang that i used to have- with a sandang walikat sheath. The mouth have horn fittings that seems to be is original. The sheath is made from one piece drilled wood. The tip of the scabbard is horn, but is a bit damaged. I added the thread bindings to cover the defect. Everything appears to be more or less reasonably old. How old, i'm not sure.

The sheath is very slim fitting to the blade as opposed to the newer version where the tukangs will normally make it thicker to probably to reduce the risk of puncturing the wood. I didn't check the type of glue used on this particular sheath.

Many of the sundangs i've seen here in Malaysia have this sort of sheath. But, my guess is the style is not very old. The hilt and the silverwork of this particular one is a replacement as the original one is badly damaged.

The second picture that i attached is a sundang in the KL Museum of Natural History. The third one is from the same museum, but appears to have a newer sheath.

In many "reconditoned" bugis keris sheath, the addition of a strip of horn to the sheath mouth is definitely to hide the refitting of the blade to a different sheath, but in the case of the sundang, i would presume that the addition of horn to the sheath mouth is to reinforce it since sena is too soft to be shaped as a sheath mouth properly. However, i cant say when this practice started.

[PenangsangII]

IMHO, Gustav's keris blade is recent Maduran made dressed in antique hulu, and repaired sheath - classic case of a seller meant to jack up his commodity. David's blade also look quite recent, I think peninsula made and aged less than 50 yrs.... but then its only an opinion....

[Gustav]

Dear PenangsangII,

may I ask you, what do you mean by repaired sheath: the buntut replacement, or complete reshaping down to this small size at the mouth and overall?

Your remark about David's keris rises again the question about the blade produktion in Peninsula during the 20 century. If you have knowledge about this subject, could you please share some of it?

Regards

[David]

Your remark about David's keris rises again the question about the blade produktion in Peninsula during the 20 century. If you have knowledge about this subject, could you please share some of it?
Well the blade was collected by someone i know personally in the USA about 40 years ago and i don't think it was new then. I had thought it was probably 20th century, but pre WW2. I also don't know the specifics of keris production on the Peninsula. Perhaps Dave H., Kai Wee or Shahrial know more about that. :shrug:

[BluErf]

G'day Alan,

All the Malay sundangs I have seen that came in sandang walikat sheaths (the other alternative sheath type for Malay sundang is the more regular rectanglar sampir sheath type) had the horn strip. They come from all sorts of sources, some auction house, some internet websites, ebay, and in person.

I do not examine by what method the horn strips are attached to the sheath, but they mostly look aesthetically complete (i.e. not added on as an afterthought).

I was looking through my archives of photos and managed to pull out 2 examples.

[BluErf]

Alan,

I have never seen a Malay sundang in sandang walikat sheath without the horn strip. Are you able to provide pictures of one such specimen? (More examples would of course be better).

Thanks.

[BluErf]

Oh forgetful me!!! How could I forget the recent sundang that went on ebay that was helpfully 'deconstructed' by age. :)

I was interested in this piece until irrational bidding took over and I gave up.

[Gustav]

BluErf, there is a remark about this at the end of Alan's post, under EDIT. As I understand it, there was a confusion between "normal" sheaths and Sandang Walikat.

Regarding at least the keris of David, I remember what Alan has said in a thread some time ago (from my memory): it is possible, that a keris, preserved under ideal conditions, outside of SE Asia, would look like made in recent past.

[BluErf]

Malay sundangs are pretty rare as a category (about as rare as cotengs, I reckon). I think I have probably only seen around a dozen or so. I think more than half are in sandang walikat sheaths.

[BluErf]

Wow, we have gathered 8 examples of Malay sundangs in 1 thread! That's quite a feat! :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Rasdan and Kai Wee.

Kai Wee, to answer your question on whether I can supply a photo of a sundang that is in sandang walikat (SW) scabbard without the horn strip.

No, I cannot, as I do not own one. I know of several in somebody else's collection, but this gentleman has always refused permission to photograph anything in his collection --- I hate to think what the response might be if I asked for permission to publish a photo on the internet.

However, there is a photo of a sundang together with its SW scabbard in Gardner.This scabbard appears not to have the horn strip.

But further discussion on this matter is probably unnecessary, as the exploded photo has answered my question completely, and the answer is that the horn strip is not a horn strip, it is a horn collar, and using that technique of jointing as shown in post 42, fixing with fish glue would be possible.

So I believe that we have established conclusively that the use of a horn collar on Malay sandang walikat scabbards used for sundang was possible prior to the advent of modern adhesives.

Of course, it would be very nice to get confirmation in some form that this collar was actually used prior to WWII.

We've diverged quite considerably from the original direction of enquiry here, but this direction we are headed in is of some interest, so I'm going to continue down this track for a little while, not to offer answers , but to raise questions that people who are closer to, and have greater interest in sundangs than I do, might like to pursue.

Stone and Gardner are the two earliest writers I can think of who mention Malay sundang (sondang). Clifford also mentions sundang, but I don't think I've got a copy of the paper concerned, and I am uncertain if there are illustrations.

Both Stone and Gardner seem not to differentiate between the sundang and the Moro keris. Speaking for myself, and not being expert in this field, I can see very little difference between the two, yes, some differences in dress, but essentially the same blade.

In Stone a page of "Moro keris" is shown. I cannot guess how many, if any, are Malay --- maybe none, as Stone gives specific locations of origin, but many of the weapons illustrated do not have scabbards.

In Gardner there is one sundang illustrated, and that has a sandang walikat scabbard that appears not to have the horn collar.

I do have one other reference that might be useful. I have quite a lot of UK dealers catalogues that cover the period 1955 to about 1990. In these catalogues there are a number of sundang/Moro keris shown. The vast bulk of these weapons are without scabbards. Where a scabbard is present it is not a SW.

This absence of scabbards for sundang/Moro keris seems to bear out something I read somewhere --- people with an interest in this field can possibly advise of the source. It went something like this:- "Moro keris are mostly found without the scabbard because the scabbards were discarded during combat".

Possibly a similar thing occurred with the Malay sundang?

Possibly most of, if not all scabbards that we currently see on Moro keris and sundangs are relatively recent replacements? Say, within the last 80 to 100 years?

Now I want to return to the core question:-

is the scabbard for the keris shown in post #1 of this thread original to the blade, or is it an old scabbard that has been adapted for use with a more recent blade?

Based upon what I can see in the photographs, and upon what I have seen in physical examples, it was my opinion that the replacement buntut, and the horn strip at the mouth of this scabbard were certain indicators that this was a scabbard that had been altered to accept a blade other than the one for which it was made.

Dave Henkel has stated that he has never seen a keris of normal size fitted with this type of scabbard.

Nobody else has come forward and advised of the existence of any other examples of this type of scabbard fitted to a normal size keris.

This keris in this SW scabbard is clearly an anomaly.

In my experience, where we find a keris that is a "one off" , or that deviates from the norm in any way, that keris needs to be looked at with the deepest suspicion. We should never forget that keris of all types come from very traditional, very hierarchically structured societies. In these societies people avoid variation from the norm.

Based upon the foregoing, I believe that at this point, the weight of evidence is heavily in favour of the scabbard shown post #1 of this thread being a scabbard that has been altered to accept a blade other than the one for which it was made.


I would be prepared to retreat from this opinion if we could establish that the horn "strip" shown in the photograph is not a horn strip, but in fact is a horn collar, and the mouth of the scabbard is an adequate fit to the blade, further, that the scabbard has not been shortened and this shortening covered with a buntut.

Regretably we are working from photographs, and the evidence that we need to establish the authenticity of this scabbard cannot be obtained --- unless this keris fell into the hands of one of our members, in which case we can have a complete and detailed examination carried out, and I might be able to reverse my opinion.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

Both Stone and Gardner seem not to differentiate between the sundang and the Moro keris. Speaking for myself, and not being expert in this field, I can see very little difference between the two, yes, some differences in dress, but essentially the same blade.
A lot of Malay keris sundang come with what seems to be a genuine Moro blade. Obviously, there was a lot of trade going on. Some of these could also have been crafted in centers with strong Moro influence like Brunei.

Some Malay sundang come with locally forged blades though since they appear to be outside the traditions of any Moro group. (Stylistically, Moro kris seem to be somewhat less cohesive than most keris. I'd posit that "pakem" were less of an issue than at Indonesian courts.)


In Stone a page of "Moro keris" is shown. I cannot guess how many, if any, are Malay
I'll try to have a look later.


This absence of scabbards for sundang/Moro keris seems to bear out something I read somewhere --- people with an interest in this field can possibly advise of the source. It went something like this:- "Moro keris are mostly found without the scabbard because the scabbards were discarded during combat".
Probably left behind before an organized battle rather than discarded but obviously the colonial soldiers mainly cared for the swords and often weren't in a position to search for any missing bits at leisure, anyway. There also appear to be simple makeshift scabbards for taking a kris on a campaign while leaving the valuable original scabbard at home.


Possibly most of, if not all scabbards that we currently see on Moro keris and sundangs are relatively recent replacements? Say, within the last 80 to 100 years?
There are quite a few antique scabbards for both Moro and Malay sundang around but obviously, as in other keris, later replacements are common. There is a larger proportion of sundang than regular keris coming without scabbards and most of this can probably be attributed to the huge amount of battlefield pickups during the early US colonial period (throw in some European colonial trophies, too).

OTOH, a noticeable percentage of pieces in foreign collections does come from later trade (and raids) and includes a genuine scabbard. Since many but status pieces come with fairly undecorated scabbards, we also have to account for later losses due to displays of "naked" swords.

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

A peninsular blade with similar kind of topographic pamor is depicted in "Den Indonesiske kris" by Karsten Sejr Jensen, on page 181 (and on page 201 a sundang in sandang walikat sheath with horn buntut and sheath mouth).

(I think it is for certain now, blades with topographic pamor are occuring not only in Madura.)

[Hartadi]

1)--- blade is very recent Madura

2)--- hilt is recent Madura production

This appears to be a recent, high class and deliberate attempt to decieve.[/QUOTE]

Hi Alan, can you please advise how did you define the blade is recent Madura ? is that way to say the blade is newly made or it was made in Madura (place)? cause I know some mpu also made kerisses in Jogjakarta and others..

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, so do I.

This blade is not Central Javanese work.

I don't think I want to comment further in this matter.

I have stated my opinion.

It is of no moment to me if my opinion is accepted or not, and I am unable to alter my opinion in the physical absence of the keris itself.

I've already given a lot of my time to this thread, and the thread as it has developed has diverged into matters that really do not interest me in even the slightest degree.

[PenangsangII]

A peninsular blade with similar kind of topographic pamor is depicted in "Den Indonesiske kris" by Karsten Sejr Jensen, on page 181 (and on page 201 a sundang in sandang walikat sheath with horn buntut and sheath mouth).

(I think it is for certain now, blades with topographic pamor are occuring not only in Madura.)

Yup... this one is certainly northern peninsula, but your earlier example was recent though no body can really be sure its so called maduran's origin....

[Gustav]

Oncemore; if the blade is in good state of preservation, it is hardly possible to see the age, and this is the case regarding some keris from older collections in Europe and USA.

I think, everybody here is able to have and write down he's opinion. This is a discussion forum. Very probably the most experienced person in case of keris from Peninsula, who has give an opinion here, is DAHenkel. His oppinion was, the kris is from 40 or 50-ties, a Peninsula blade (post #7).

Well, the keris finally arrived. Both hilt and buntut have a fine patina, which stays absolutely hidden if you try to pfotograph it. The wood of the sheath is old, has a beautiful grain, old is also the horn collar. In my oppinion, when I see this keris in my hand, there are no new or recent parts in this ensemble.

The photographs from the seller are very good indeed, so only the missing view - the mouth of the sheath.

Thank you all very much.

[Sajen]

See I correct that the horn collar is set in up of the sheat and enfolded the wood? So the blade sitting in the wood?

[Gustav]

Yes, it's wright.

[A. G. Maisey]

In my post #6 I said this:-

As always when looking at pics, I could be wrong --- but overall I don't think I am.


These most recent images posted by Gustav provide an entirely different perspective.

What I have said in previous posts is incorrect.

I was wrong.

I think this underlines what I have frequently said, that it is very difficult to appraise a keris from photographs, especially photographs on a computer screen.

It also underlines just how important it is to see the top of the ganja.

I no longer believe that this keris was made in Madura, but there are most definitely elements of Madura craftsmanship inherrent in this blade. How they got there is anybody's guess.