cultures moderation tips for keris lovers [Archive]

purwacarita

1st September 2005, 12:22 PM

Thankx for your (culturic?) tips. It is the fact that most people in Indonesia buy keris to acquire the isoteric properties inside, rather than to have the physical keris itself. Most of them still think of keris dealers are from sacred, sincere communities and that what makes them, ...gullible. I've been very concerned but I don't want you guys think I have vendetta against any dealers. For a value of Rp.10mil (or more), people will want the best keris with the best isoteric properties feasible, and for the same reason people will want to say their keris have all the properties required.:o Yes Ian, it is around the same value.

Here's my first tip.:rolleyes:

Ask the question to the dealer, "Why the keris is mahar-ed at some value of money, instead of anything else?"

You can understand the meaning of mahar in cases like,
- the bearer realizing the perishing energy of his keris and knew that you're the only one who could reverse the process, but he thinks you are not willing to help unless the keris is yours. So the bearer tells you that he will give to you if you promise to take care of the problem.

- the bearer is in deep social trouble and you are the one who could help him. So resentfully you tell him that your favor will cost him his keris.

- the bearer is about to die without successors and you are whom he will entrust his keris with. So the bearer give it to you after he takes your oath.

- you are competing with your brother to acquire a divine keris of your master, and your master performs contests to decide who will be descended the keris.

- you envy the beauty of keris belongs to your brother, your master knows it and promise to give his if only you could accomplish certain tasks, like completing your current level of internal martial art.

- the bearer just give away his keris to you for free as he knows how insanely you love keris, and you politely give something in return, but all you have in your pocket is money of small buck.

- some other things I'll add later.

The bottom line is that mahar is not (the other more polite) language of money. It is a pre-conditions met before you can have what you want, and in many cases the requirement is your commitment. So when the keris is mahar-ed at certain amount of money, it is not mahar-ed at all. It is just for sale :D ...where common-sense public business policies applies.

nechesh

1st September 2005, 10:19 PM

For a value of Rp.10mil (or more), people will want the best keris with the best isoteric properties feasible, and for the same reason people will want to say their keris have all the properties required.:o

Just a reality check here. For $1000 USD it is perhaps reasonable to expect the "best keris" that has been NEWLY made in Madura.And i will state this again, some of the finest keris ever crafted are being made TODAY. As for esoteric (i assume this is the word you intend :)) properties though, such a keris would probably have none. :( But fine old keris pusaka such as of the quality which Boedhi Adhitya has been speaking of (which would better qualify for the term "best keris") can cost TENS of thousands of dollars. Some are even worth $100,000 or more. So when someone allows themselves to believe they are receiving a keris of this quality for merely $1000 they are really only fooling themselves. But this is how con men work. They convince you that you are receiving an impossible deal and in a sense, it is the buyers own greed which allows him to believe such a thing is possible. Deep inside he knows better. If a deal seems impossible it probably is. ;)
Now, this doesn't mean that you can't build a very nice collection of nice old keris at a much lower cost. They won't be royal court pieces that belonged to prince so-and-so, but IMO that doesn't necessarily mean they will be void of esoteric properties. I will not argue Boedhi Adhitya's position because i think he is absolutely right from the perspective from which he speaks, but i believe that the concept of keris pusaka exists on a different level outside of the royal courts and that many keris conceived for the more common folk were made to carry esoteric energies as well. Once more, it goes back to the old adage, "Buy the keris, not the story". Your inner being will tell you whether or not a keris is right for you, no dukkuns involved (though i must admit i do like the incense :D )

Alam Shah

3rd September 2005, 02:49 AM

I love aromatic incense as well. Not for my kerises but for for myself. :D
It has uplifting properties and can influence and change moods...

Rick and Nechesh are right, "Buy the keris and not the story".
The story is a bonus, good for story-telling with friends.

purwacarita

3rd September 2005, 03:49 AM

Newbees got themselves cheated in fact by those who they respect as trustworthy. As because trustworthy people knew how much money they could make by fooling one's belief who does not possess adequate comprehension of their culture, and then left their victims financially hurt, degraded faith and got pessimistic towards their own traditions.:o Very harmful to culture, no?

Yes necesh, you are possibly right when keris is looked from money value perspective, and probably not. Moeny value perspective is not all about keris. What I meant when I first start this thread is to gather culturic perspectives from different cultures, and the "buy the keris, not the story" thing sounds more realistic than culturic.

And as a cultured person, it is my duty oh, :p my pleasure to contribute and shed light to those newbees, not because I have excessive knowledge so I can spare some little.

Well, cultured Indonesia keris devotees, ...your tips, please?!

Culture could not be built based on deception of money making machine. Second tip.:rolleyes:

Keris is a symbol of something. Ask question to yourself,"What in you will be symbolized by your dreamy keris?"

In doing so, you will not mistakenly acquire keris to symbolize unnecessary things of yours like,
- your wealth, because your money already show its perfectly.
- your health, because your diet already show it perfectly also.
- your status, because your tax is the best symbol of it.
- your greed or arrogance, because your attitude reflects that better.
- your power, over what?
- your lust, ...be rational, it does not have to be symbolized.
- etc.

nechesh

3rd September 2005, 06:52 AM

Sorry purwacarita, i was not looking at keris from the money perspective, just trying to make folks realize that $1000 USD is a drop in the bucket towards the cost of a truly fine old keris pusaka. Certainly there may be other ways to obtain such a keris that does not demand money, but realistically, that is the most common way keris change hands these days. Yes, there is a great deal more to the keris than it's material value.
Perhaps you can be a little more direct with us. What, for instance, does the keris represent in YOUR life?
I don't believe i or anyone was debating that the "culture could not be built based on deception of money making machine." You began this thread by talking about a friend who was ripped off by an unscrupuous dealer. I think then it was you who brought money into this discussion. :) If you are looking for "culturic perspectives" then i think you need to get a bit more specific and define exactly what you are looking for. "Buy the keris, not the story" is a direct response to your original posting. I guess i don't really know what you mean by "culturic perspectives from different cultures".

You wrote: "And as a cultured person, it is my duty oh, my pleasure to contribute and shed light to those newbees, not because I have excessive knowledge so I can spare some little."

This would be nice, i always like a bit of light shed. I realize there are difficulties in the languages and i commend you for you skills so far, but frankly i have found your posts somewhat cryptic, as if you are not quite saying what it is you really want to say about keris. If you have knowledge, please share it. :)

purwacarita

3rd September 2005, 11:19 AM

What, for instance, does the keris represent in YOUR life?
Hi nechesh. Patience, ...a few tips are coming. Yet I'm not the only keris devotee in this forum, however you seem to understand the "cryptic drop in the bucket" culture of Indonesia keris.

nechesh

3rd September 2005, 04:48 PM

Yes Purwacarita, i understand the " 'cryptic drop in the bucket' culture of Indonesia keris" quite well, but frankly, in my experience (at least as it applies to contributions on this forum) it never amounts to anything other than a lot of hot air. :rolleyes: I trust that in this example it will not be the case. :)
"Indonesian keris devotees" such as our brother Boedhi Adhitya have already written quite clearly and eloquently of the subject of modern mysticism and the keris, so perhaps it is your turn to reveal your "tips" more clearly. You say it is your " duty oh, (your) pleasure to contribute and shed light to those newbees" , but right now your sun seems to be covered in the clouds. ;)

Rick

3rd September 2005, 04:51 PM

I'm getting deja vu all over again . :D
We have been down this road so many times in the years that I have been moderating here .

So while we are waiting for answers I thought I'd share this new keris with you all .
Yes , from Madura .
I don't collect keris to accrue power , but I do believe that ALL fine works of art regardless of culture are prayers in and of themselves and that they are expressions of the divine nature of man .

nechesh

3rd September 2005, 05:20 PM

Well Rick, as i said in perhaps a few more words in e-mail, WOOF!! :D
This is a fine example of the high technical quality of work which is available from modern keris makers and your comment that "ALL fine works of art regardless of culture are prayers in and of themselves and that they are expressions of the divine nature of man." is well taken.
The pamor control on this piece is exquisite and the beauty of it certainly inspires and reflects a bit of the divine in us all. :)

Mick

3rd September 2005, 06:10 PM

Rick

Excellent piece. There are very few pamor pendoks out there. Whoever made this ensamble is keeping the art of pamor work up to it's highest standard.

Alam Shah

4th September 2005, 03:00 AM

Hi Rick,

Love the pendok more than the keris pamor. Beautiful...btw, where did you get yours? :D

Rick

4th September 2005, 03:25 AM

From the Postman . ;) :D

purwacarita

6th September 2005, 06:46 AM

Hi Rick. It is beautiful fine keris, ...a few hundred years from now it will be beautiful fine old keris. Seems like the maker made it with intention to reflect its own era rather than chemically corrode the blade to make it looks old for dojo vu. Beautiful and honest keris. :)

Certainly there may be other ways to obtain such a keris that does not demand money, but realistically, that is the most common way keris change hands these days.
Hi nechesh. I'm glad that Indonesia keris have fans abroad whose keris change hands by money. I don't have problem with that. But in Indonesia, it could only be done without forgetting the culture. Culture is still the reason why Indonesian acquires keris, sorry, it is not the money. Such stories told when exchanging the keris is not a bonus after all, and surprisingly is most common told by those who considered trustworthy, so when it's phoney, it's destructible to the culture. Like discussing how the Greeks took advantage of Trojan culture to a victory. It feels creepy to say that the Trojan horse is most common worth the plunder, and still I don't think it's right to conclude to "I fear the Greeks even when they bring gifts" thing. I don't know the latin, but I believe it is the right translation. Well, ...as so many uncountable cities and so many uncountable horses, it will be the challenge to burn the mysterious men in the horses before the horses taken into the cities. For example, keris dapur Jaran Guyang luk 7 is said good for sex driving energy source, and so whoever needs for sex drive should acquire it. Or unyeng Asmaradana in handle that said good for polygamy. What an intention of the mpu, who supposed to have a straight spiritual path. :D It's not easy to put right this wide spread misconceptions besides above dapur and unyeng may symbolize other sacred meanings. So the dapur and unyeng are better sacrificed to be meant as the misconception, except that it only in most mild sarcastic gurindam to be read, need more sex drive, huh? Settle down yourself before you're settled down, by death, AIDS, or anything bad you deserve, as the blade will loaded with spirit of transquality. Very constructive. :D

The sun never covered in the clouds, it always shine upon anything in its solar system. The earth rotates and the night blames the sun of running out. When earth covered with cloud of prejudice, please look if you have ignited incense in your mind whose smoke blocks your view to the sun. The third sun is coming from another galaxy.:rolleyes: It's already the third! See? :D

How complicated will you classify keris? More complicated means that you will make yourself difficult to find your dreamy keris.

It is not a challenge to others who has different classifications. Please understand that it is because we are plural that makes the richess of our country.

I classify keris according to my group as follows,
- kadutan, is to see keris as weapon
- pusaka, is to see keris as historical property
- pertimi, is to see keris as spiritual property

The 3 classifications are overlapping one another. You need to make a priority list of the 3 as they are not hierarchical. For example, kadutan is your highest priority, than you should look for properties that will construct a dreamy weapon of your life, inspect for blade metal materials, etc. But once the keris is made, and keep you accompanied for tens of years, it has had historical properties, or it may have saved your life, then it becomes pusaka.

Or when pusaka is the highest in your priority list, then ask yourself, whose history will you treasure with keris, or is it really important if you treasure the history of the President of RI by acquiring his keris for your ego, ...of perdikan? :rolleyes:

It is said that if the bearer is committed to something, the spirit of his commitment would induce his keris, though the keris is only either pusaka or kadutan. The induced energy when sealed by the priest could make it lasts longer or stronger. The induced keris is called pertimi. It is the spirit of commitment of the bearer what is in keris, not his soul, and that commitment should be paid by the same commitment of the next bearer under term of mahar, to keep the spirit alive. And the spirit in keris will also influence your spirit, and your spirit will influence your life. In some martial groups, this spiritual keris is then upgraded to supranatural keris, but the keris is still called pertimi.

If pertimi is your first priority, you should look for places where priests could raise spirit of ordinary non-martial men to perform a show which they will be immuned to blade, in full view of public.

In martial world, keris is also gurindam over a remark of remembrance. To remind you of your commitment, or to remind you how vulnerable you are inspite of your mighty virtues. The Bugiswise has it also, to remind the bearer away from thapeler or thalaso. I think that culture will be established after many searches within, but I don't mind if you will take mine, choose which part you like as you consider will make yours stronger. Take it, it's free. :):D

nechesh

6th September 2005, 12:00 PM

PURWACARITA WROTE: I'm glad that Indonesia keris have fans abroad whose keris change hands by money. I don't have problem with that. But in Indonesia, it could only be done without forgetting the culture. Culture is still the reason why Indonesian acquires keris, sorry, it is not the money.

I am afraid you have misunderstood me, my friend. No where do i suggest that the REASON people in Indonesia acquire keris is money. I am not suggesting that the culture is forgotten and that keris in Indonesia are merely a commodity these days. Still, it is the METHOD by which most people, even in Indonesia, acquire their keris. I do understand the term mahar (dowery) and that within the culture many Indonesians will also accept certain responsiblities that come with the ownership of certain keris. Money, BTW, is nothing more than a representation of energy to be exchanged. There is nothing intrinsically evil about it. It represents the hard work of the person who holds it and can be used to obtain things they want or need in life. It represents the hard work they did to acquire it (in most cases ;) ). Regardless of mahar, i believe it is still the most common way people acquire keris these days, even in Indonesia. I brought up the money issue originally because of your statement that people in Indonesia expect the "best" keris for $1000USD. I know for a fact that Indonesian collectors (for lack of a better word) often pay far more (in money) than that for what might be termed the "best" keris. This isn't meant to imply that they value the keris only for it's monetary value.

Purwacarita, could you also please define the terms perdikan and gurindam? Thanks.
BTW, thanks also for the lesson in astronomy. :rolleyes:

purwacarita

8th September 2005, 01:12 PM

Hi nechesh. You said you understand the 'cryptic drop in the bucket' culture of Indonesia keris" quite well, ...friend. :rolleyes: ;) :)

Rick

8th September 2005, 02:36 PM

Hi Purwacarita , thank you for your complimentary comments , let's take the new keris I purchased as an example .
I bought it because it is a beautiful example of a kadutan . When I pass and it goes to my Son it will then be kadutan/pusaka , yes ?

Now another question ; if I had the resources to comission a keris with certain esoteric properties made by one of the last empus in Jawa capable of doing this and he requested money from me then I have indeed 'purchased' the keris , no ?

nechesh

8th September 2005, 10:22 PM

Hi nechesh. You said you understand the 'cryptic drop in the bucket' culture of Indonesia keris" quite well, ...friend. :rolleyes: ;) :)

So.....does that mean you are NOT going to answer my simple question about the definition of the terms you have used? :rolleyes:

purwacarita

10th September 2005, 10:52 AM

Hi Rick. Your kadutan not necessarily become pusaka of your son, unless you tell your son the experience you've through with the kadutan and how your kadutan became so useful for you and how you love and treasure it as pusaka. If you don't pass the message, your pusaka becomes kadutan of your son. If your son does not respect your message, it is not a pusaka of his.

No priest will sell esoteric properties. You can only buy new kadutan, or antique keris which its historical and spiritual properties had been lost or neglected. ...But if the empu could make it pertimi and ask the money from you, I hope my explanation to nechesh can answer it perfectly.

Why chopped liver? Now go back to what, stabbed wall? :)

Hi nechesh. I am afraid you have misunderstood me, my friend. :rolleyes: Until today for so many years I have lived in Indonesia as the citizen, there are still many things about Indonesia miss my understanding, as you know, Indonesia is rich of cultures. I can not understand them all and so I hope I could learn some from you in this forum. :)

Besides, though you are not admit your last posts of money perspectives, for once again your newer post reflected that perfectly. Well, ...there is nothing wrong with it because you are from culture of capitalism. Capitalism is not bad, it most results positively to freedom, independence etc. Mahar culture at the other hand most results to loyalty, commitment, etc.

If you notice there different of these 2 cultures in keris. Capitalism will need the guy work for money before he can buy keris. Mahar will need the guy commitment after the keris is given. So keris in capitalism will require the result of ones in the past(CE:money), while keris in mahar will require the result of ones in the future(CE:discipline, responsibility, loyalty, hard-work, etc). Keris in capitalism will make the bearer usually get more self confidence, while keris in mahar may make the bearer schizoprenic. Maybe you can moderate 2 cultures to gain the best method of acquiring keris.

Buying and Selling is trade of both ones outcome of the past. Mahar is trade of ones outcome in the future and other in the present.

purwacarita

10th September 2005, 02:31 PM

I can't believe I'm the only Indonesian posting. Are you still there enjoy reading or you are afraid to disagree my dynamic posts? :)

Rick

10th September 2005, 04:38 PM

Hi Purwacarita , thank you for explaining to me the questions I have asked of you .

As for the 'chopped liver' business it was a self deprecating joke on my part which Andrew and Mark picked up on and they had a little fun changing my avatar . Afterwards I changed it back to the original Moro kris interpretation which is supposed to express the dynamic energy inherent in the weapon . :)

I am not sure why our other Indonesian Members have not responded to your posts ; I certainly hope they will . I also hope that it is OK for non Indonesians to participate in this thread as well . ;) :)

nechesh

10th September 2005, 05:18 PM

Purwacarita, i am a little confused at this point. You began this thread with a story about a fellow Indonesian who obtained a keris that was "mahared" at Rp, 10 mil.(approx. $1000 USD). This seems to be a common practice in Indonesia as i have been on many websites from the area that SELL keris this way with the PRICE labelled as "mahar". I am aware that there are no doubt still Indonesians who may be fortunate enough to recieve a keris as pusaka from a relative, but is this truly the most COMMON way in which keris change hands TODAY in Indonesia or is it more likely to occur as it did with your friend in the story?
BTW, the use of a local currency to obtain goods is not an invention of Capitalism. Communist and Socialist countries also use currency and even so-called primitive cultures commonly found particular items (shells, beads, etc.) which served as a form of money. On a purely idealistic level i do tend to agree with you that "Capitalism is not bad, it most results positively to freedom, independence etc. Mahar culture at the other hand most results to loyalty, commitment, etc." , but in practice i am not convinced it actually works out that way. And with great respect to the long histories and cultures of the Indonesian people you are CURRENTLY living in a very Capitalistic society. People are people after all, and whether they are capable of maintaining any commitment to the spirit and nature of the keris they have obtained is probably more determined by their personal understanding of "Will" than the manner in which they obtained their keris. From where i sit it is basically impossible for me to receive a keris through mahar. I am therefore forced into using money to obtain my keris. This is not, believe me, because of any great love or appreciation for the system of Capitalism. Yet when i receive a keris i do my best to pay respect to it an try to determine the "will" of the blade, if any. If i understand you correctly it is your stance that a keris which is sold for money no longer holds any esorteric properties. If that is your belief i have personally found it to be untrue. Many bought keris still resonate strongly and i don't need psychics, dukkuns or Coggins machines to prove it to me. :)
I am still really interested in your definitions of the terms perdikan and gurindam. It can only be helpful to the points you are trying to make if we understand all your words. :)

Rick

10th September 2005, 08:07 PM

Purwacarita , in rereading this thread I find that at least three people (keris enthusiasts) from your area have responded to your post .

Perhaps they have said all they wish on this subject .

Now I must ask , if your views on the nature and transferrence of keris from one person to another is not about money at all ; why then is your avatar money itself ?
I must admit to being as confused about this as you must be about my "Kris stabbing a wall" .

Battara

11th September 2005, 06:23 AM

First on Rick's keris - W :eek: :eek: :eek: W! Amazing, I would love to have a puppy like that - W :D :D F!

Secondly, if you need, I am a minister and I will willingly pray/bless your keris' for you (very small fee :D ).

rasdan

11th September 2005, 07:11 AM

Hi Rick,

I am down right curious about the manufacturing technique of your pendok. Can u please explain how it is or how do u think it is made? Is that really pamor?? :eek:

Rick

11th September 2005, 03:00 PM

Hi Rasdan it is pamor , you can see the pattern on the inside of the pendok also . I was told that this was made in the traditonal way then beaten by hand at working heat into a thin sheet (there are no rolling mills in Maduran villages) . The flat sheet is then cut into a fan-like shape and hot formed over a sangklon ( a pendok mandrel ) The real skill comes in the welding of the finished product . :)
All in all a very labor intensive project . :eek:

Rick

11th September 2005, 06:50 PM

Secondly, if you need, I am a minister and I will willingly pray/bless your keris' for you (very small fee :D ).

Now Battara , must I quote scripture to you . ;) :D :D

rasdan

12th September 2005, 04:08 AM

Wow!!!.. awesome man.. simply awesome.. I wont sell the pendok for $300 (not to mention the blade) if i'm the tukang. Phew.. It had been a hell of a work there..

Boedhi Adhitya

12th September 2005, 09:11 AM

Perdikan = A free-tax land which was given by the king to his vassal/servant, not necessarilly of noble origin, mostly caused by a remarkable service that had been done by the servant. The leader of perdikan usually called "Ki Ageng", ex. Ki Ageng Pengging was a leader of The Perdikan of Pengging, near Boyolali, Central Java.
Gurindam= A form of two-couplets poem in old malays letter.

Wish would help Nechesh on understanding Mr. Purwacarita's posts :)

I agree with Mr Purwacarita that MOST Indonesians who seek keris, wish a "spiritual benefit" or "magical things" in keris rather than it's artistic form and beauty, while they themselves are unable to "feel" this benefit/things. Then they run to someone who, they believe, as having this capability. Thus, they are subjected to fraud. Just like inexperienced people seek for diamonds will end up in imitation ones. For those who seek ONLY spiritual or magical benefit, I would suggest them to seek true jimat/amulet/talisman like "rajah".

I personally DO NOT believe that someone, which own, for example, an old keris with udan mas pamor will become rich without doing nothing. I DO believe that he might be slightly richer if he sold his keris :D

Mahar would be translated as dowry in English. This would happen only when a keris has became someone's identity, just like USA with stars and stripes flag. USA would never sold their flag to other country and invented new flag as a replacement, would they? BUT, sometimes, the keris's owner just need some cash, and have to sold his "flag". Then, the "mahar" term would be used to "cover-up" his shame. Some dukuns would also use this term and connecting it to the magical properties, which will not "attach" to the keris if the keris is bought, and thus the Mahar shouldn't be bargained. Anyway, who's the one who have a heart to bargain the dowry he would give to his lovely bridge? :D I personally never give a damn to this term, because de facto, it is "PRICE" and "MONEY" and I DO bargain for it. I would seek keris anywhere, even from the dukuns, as long as it meets my standards, fairly priced, and not a stolen ones. Good keris not necessarily belongs to a prince or court's families. In fact, today's Jogjakarta's princes who love kerises have bought some of their kerises from commoners, and they, like other keris lovers, are in constant seek for good and fairly priced pieces. I've personally found good kerises in Beringharjo traditional market which were underpriced by the sellers. (And I've met some dukuns buying cheap kerises there also :D ). Only a little keris dealers would judge kerises properly, even if they handle kerises everyday for years. Why? Because they do it for money, and didn't pay attention to what they have. They would put a high price on most demanded keris. This demand, since belong to most Indonesian who didn't "understand" their own heritage, would only misleading.

Keris has became commodities in Java. "Keris hunters" will go to villages, buying kerises, spearheads, swords, drawer/cupboard, lamps, or anything else look "old" from villagers. The "keris hunters" then would go to the nearest bigger/district city and bring his "quarries" to the "wholesaler" and sell it in bulk. The "wholesaler" then sorting the keris qualities, clean it, put it in the sheaths and handles and give them the "appropriate" price (or mahar, if you like it) and then sale it to other "wholesaler" or "customers", or "dukuns", anyones who wish to buy it. If you lucky enough, you might "intercept" the "keris hunter" before he meets the "wholesaler", and pick a good keris in very low price :D

(Hi)story of the blade, for me personally, isn't important part and never became my consideration on selecting kerises. This story is hard to verify. In fact, the blade has told his own story, e.g. the heavily corroded blade was abandoned for years, "worn-out" blade caused by etching with minor corrosion means the blade was well maintained for generations (something that should be appreciated), a good, original sheath with Tayuman handle usually belongs to at least a middle-class, keris-literrate owner (proper shaped sheath and tayuman handle were very expensive, and judging "proper" match and shape need a lot of experiences. Good keris with good sheath and handle were, and always, a luxury). Beauty and properly executed, would be the most important point since it shows the empu's mastery on the art. Empu's mastery on the blades will never fade away, whether the blade is inherited, "mahar-ed" or "priced/bought". When the blade was made by the master empu, then, anything else would follow, wouldn't they ? :) It's a very simple and rational conclusion, IMHO.

Good trustworthy elders are hard to find, and they never advertise themselves. All elders I've met do not make a living from kerises, and not a dukuns / paranormal / shamans. They just keris devotees. They only discuss the art, never the story.

Tim Simmons

12th September 2005, 10:06 AM

Money,money,money in a rich mans world :p Even the spirits are graded by wealth. Very interesting. Tim

purwacarita

12th September 2005, 02:12 PM

Hi nechesh. Keris is mahar-ed for some commitments and sold for some price. It is sad to still see the hypocritical of seller who sells but said mahar-s. Perdikan is old language, sancrete or palwa, I don't know, that means independence. I think it is mistakenly attributed to context tax-free to regions, which in old time, it is said that free tax region was gifted a perdikan keris as a symbol that the region is tax free. And some people today still believe that if they are gifted keris from authoritive person, like the President, it means that they don't have to pay tax again. :D Gurindam is non spoken message usually uses things or symbols to express it.

Hi Rick. My avatar to remind me of glow of simple metal which easily misunderstood as esoteric properties. Stabbed wall is about the same context with chopped liver.

Hi Boedhi. Nice to read your post again, though many I would disagree. I appreciate you for honesty. :)

Next sun. :rolleyes:

How would you define esoteric / tuah?

Keris made by empu Gandring is said to have bad esoteric properties as it takes many victims, including the first bearer and the maker himself. By understanding that the esoteric is the conduced spirit of the bearer, and that keris is made to the spiritual intention of the maker. It is impossible that keris is so called having bad esoteric properties. Because,
- Empu Gandring would want the keris esoteric properties influenced the first bearer, Ken Arok, to kill himself.
- The esoteric property, if any (from the intention of the maker), failed to stop the ambition of Ken Arok to use any ways including cruel ones, to fulfil his ambition to become a king. If any esoteric, it would have been intentionally used to breach the skin of Tunggul Ametung who said to mastered high internal martial art, rather than to help Ken Arok to become king.

A few time a go, a TV programme, Dunia Lain, hosted by Harry Pantja showed a man who looked like casting mantra to a keris, suddenly the keris looked like become heavier, he put then the keris into a glass. The keris started to swing slowly, then more dynamicly, until the glass went down and the keris stopped swinging. Though the host did not explain if the keris was possessed by some jin, souls as the esoteric, I felt the it was meant that way. I want to disagree because,
- The bearer hand was shaking heavily when holding the keris in vertical position, but he could easily put the blade into the glass. The gravity of the soul only worked when the keris was held vertically, mana mungkin?
- The swing stopped just about the glass fallen to ground. If the soul inside really swing the keris, after the glass fell, it will slowly still swing.
Because of those, I think that what showed was not souls esoteric keris, but just keris that manipulated by practitioner who had mastered some prana energy.

And so, I devide esoteric properties as follows
- if the keris could make bearer remember his commitments, though the spirit is not yet induced and thus he will keep doing as his commitments

- if the keris is already induced by the spirit of the bearer
- if the induced keris is blessed by priest
- if the blessed keris is blessed by god

Esoteric also called yoni. You might wonder where the lingga is. Some will say,
- lingga is the soul that inhabitated the keris, just like a man, who has soul inside the spirit. It is what cause life, soul and spirit, inspite of sexual things of penis and vagina. This theory is a failure as good pertimi is used to drive away ghosts in house and give peaceful atmosphere
- lingga is the material things surrounded the keris, CE: offering, oil, etc
- lingga is the blessing by priest or god

nechesh

12th September 2005, 03:22 PM

Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for your clear and concise explanations. As usual you have shed some light on a very complex subject. And thank you for the definitions as well. :) Your words make a lot of sense to me.
Purwacarita, it seems to me that the man making his keris cut grass for the TV cameras is more likely using slight-of-hand or some other stage magic technique than the more esorteric explanation that he has mastered some prana energy. ;) He is most probably a chalatan, not a holy man. IMO dogs can be made to do "tricks", but keris should not. :)
I am curious about your use of the terms Yoni and Lingam (lingga). These are Hindu terms of Sanskrit origin with rather particular meaning. They refer specifically to the venerated symbols of the female (goddess) and male (god, specifically Siva) genitialia as it applies to the Hindu religion. From what source are you making your adaptations of these concepts to the keris? I am not saying one way or another is i believe this application is correct, but i would be interested to know what you base it on. I do find the use of the term Yoni to mean "esorteric" a bit vague.

purwacarita

13th September 2005, 06:41 AM

Hi nechesh. I don't think it was a stage magic technique as it was performed in kraton Surakarta, but I don't care if the guy in the show had mastered the prana or not, nor if he was a magician. The show was intended to be understood as soul inhabited keris and it is very convincing for those who does not understand. I meant to say that the show was not soul inhabited keris and disprove any supertitious belief of it.

Yoni and Lingga are sourced in that religion, only you'll have to guess which one. In my understanding, it is not a genital symbol of sex of feminine and masculine, but rather a symbol of creation of life as union of soul, spirit & body. Others can have their own values over my post and feel free to disagree. And nechesh, I did not imply either that esoteric keris will lose its esoteric properties when bought (instead of mahar).

Gurindam still practised behind the scene in marriage before the blessing. The groom likely to give to bride's parents mahar, usually gold or money, and spiritual things like holy books. This is not read as the groom intention to buy the bride with such things as the payment, but to be read as the commitment of the groom to do the best to financially and spiritually support the bride and the children, in the future. Parents will receive the mahar and give it to the bride. This is to be read that the commitment shall be subject to responsibility to the bride. :D I think it's quite different in capitalistic situation where marriage concerns financial achievement of the groom.

The difference of these 2 marriages is the risk taken. Under mahar, the couple will face great risks in the future as what they have in present is nothing but their commitment (and love :o ). Under capitalism, the risk is minimized, which is the good thing. The bad thing is that people tend to value anything with money. People are people though marriage for mahar still use local currencies and marriage for sale may not. But people will ask, who or what do you love? or do you really love me or my beautiful car? :rolleyes:

The original keris culture is that also, isn't? We can adapt to capitalism where culture shifts, but we can't forget who we are. ;) I don't oppose you who sell keris for living, but you'll respected if you are honest and sincere. :)

Boedhi Adhitya

13th September 2005, 09:26 AM

I believe the Empu Gandring and Ken Arok legend was picked from "Serat Pararaton" (= Para Ratu, Cronicle of the Kings), which was written nearly 400 years after the actual incident happened ( Ken Arok / Singasari reign). It is, certainly, hard to verify, even at the time when the book was written. Some experts even interpret this "Empu Gandring" story as a symbolic languages (or gurindam, as Mr. Purwacarita define) depicting the "magnificent" struggle for power in Singasari between the families. But IF only this legend was TRUE, those who knew the legend would understood that the keris had not been finished by Mpu Gandring, which then caused Ken Arok, who've been waiting for a long time, to became very angry, grabbed the keris, and killed the empu himself. It was, actually, the blessing ceremony which had not been done. Mpu Gandring himself had warn Arok that the keris was fiery and full of anger when he came to took the keris. The curse which was spelled by Gandring while he was dying, would be the "blessing ceremony" then.
Making keris is an art, technically and spiritually, and can not being done in rush and anxious circumstance. The fact that Ken Arok was a well-known leader of robbers, would also influenced the "spiritual circumstance" of Mpu Gandring. Imagine this : How would you fell if Osama bin Laden commisioned a keris to you, if you an empu ? Your feeling or "spiritual circumstance" then would changed considerably and being easily absorbed to the keris you make, and nothing you can do about it. You have at least two options then : Stop working, which would only make the keris-making process delayed while the feeling still "haunt" you. Not to mention Mr "O" who may get angry for waiting too long. Or refuse the commision, which may cause Mr "O" send you a suicide bomber :eek: Same situation might also apply to Gandring, and thus, it is easily understood then, why his keris so fiery and full of anger, even before Gandring cursed it.

I do agree with Mr. Purwacarita, it is almost impossible for empu, especially Master Empu, to "cast" bad intention in his keris. It was a "mishap" that made a bad keris. This might be technically or spiritually when the empu lost his concentration. Any disturbances which make the master empu angry, in doubt, anxious, annoyed, sad or any "bad feeling" would easily seep into the keris. Just like a composer when he compose a song. While a composer use a song as a media to express his idea, feeling, or wishes and a painter use the brush's strokes and colors, an empu choose the iron, pamor and others on a keris to serve this purpose. You may choose a song as "your song", or a painting which "describe" your feeling. You may also choose a keris to reflect your wishes, 'ideal character/personality' you wish to achive, your ideal 'way of life' or ambitions you wish to achieve(= 'Da Flag'). Then, the keris may serves as a 'remembrance', as every time you see your keris, you will remember of your wishes and gives you a "power/motivation" to achive it.(=Da Nationalism). Selling this kind of keris then would be felt very humiliating to the owners. Sometimes, on a very good pusaka, "the power" is so intense, that any "keris-illiterate" who see it would also overwhelmed by this kind of "unseen/spoken power". Just like any listener would be overwhelmed by a good song likes, said, Bohemian Rhapsody. This explanation, however, only explain the esoteric things from exoteric point of view. (perhaps an "exo-esoteric" explanation :D ) The real esoteric would also involve the empu's prayer/blessing.

Then, it is very easy to understand that the keris for a soldier would not match the wishes of a farmer. A merchant should not wear a keris intended for a king. Why ? Because his costumers want to be king also. Two king in one shop would only ended up in a war :D Mahar-ed or bought, it will not make a lot of differences in this kind of "esoteric". It may also easily understood that "the old fashioned" Javanese would very reluctant to show his pusaka keris to a stranger, which may also show his ambitions, which is considered as unpolite in Javanese culture. It is also speculated that many good pusaka's ganja was changed on purpose with "ganja wulung" (=black ganja, that is, without pamor) to hide the ambition of the wearer/owner. (Yes, it is very possible to do an "educated guessing" on keris' pamor and dapur, only by looking the ganja on a sheathed keris. An expert may reach 80-90% accuracy. With ganja wulung, only dapur could be predicted, certainly).

Making keris technically, also took a lot of care and concentration. So, if you had a technically perfect keris, it would be almost always guarantee you a good concentration of the maker, which may also connected to "good spiritual circumstances". It may also always guarantee you profits, if you bought it on a fair price :D

"Yoni" jargon to describe the unseen "esoteric" things, IMHO, would be a "recent" invention. "Serat Centhini" which was written in 19 cent. did not use this terminology (it describe the meaning of ricikan and dapur though). It was said that Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat, a Surakarta's court prince and also a respected keris expert, who introduced this terminology. (Unfortunately, Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat had passed away) He did not, as I recall (remember please, I have a short memories), explain the Lingga. IMHO, the "yoni" term would resembles the "Yin" side in Taoism( or Daoism, a more approriate spelling), while Lingga is the "Yang" side, the "seen" quality, and thus, the blade itself or exoteric things. Today in Java, Yoni terminology usually use on every "unseen" or "spiritual/spirit" qualities which reside on something, not limited to the female genital symbol where it was originated.
I do aware that some spirit/energy things may reside on kerises. I also aware that some of them reside on my collections. While I'm aware of their presence, once again, it is not my main concern/consideration on selecting kerises. Until today, we live happily and peacefully ;) Serat Centhini warned "be careful on selecting keris. The pamor/iron may bring you a good luck or a bad luck." It did not warn about the spirit or even wrote about it, as I recall.
One of the elders warn me :"Just like other traditional arts like wayang (shadow puppet) or Gamelan, the keris standards, as a classic Javanese art, had been set. Anyone who seeks other standards would only get lost." Perhaps, it is only a Javanese "chauvinistic" point of view :)

Yes, Tim. It is sad to say that almost all about money. It is a fact of live :( Money may not buy everything, it only able to buy 99% things in this world :p

nechesh

13th September 2005, 10:50 PM

Boedhi Adhitya, thank you once again for shedding light and answering questions that others seem unable to answer. I have found your input on both this thread and the forum in general to be invaluable. :)
Purwacarita, i am not sure where you have gotten you ideas about marriage "under capitalism", but i can assure you that at least here in the USA the average couple still marries for love of one another, not money or possessions. What ever gave you the impression that "it's quite different in capitalistic situation where marriage concerns financial achievement of the groom." Gee, if that were the case i would never have been able to find my beautiful, loving wife. :D Yes, there are certainly cultural differences between here and Indonesia, but i am concerned that you seem determined to push forth the differences you perceive rather than the similarities. Like many North Americans my wife and i began our marriage with love and commitment to walk the path of life together...and very little else. I think perhaps you have watched too many episodes of "Desperate Housewives" or some such TV show. :D Fortunately, even so called reality television does not reflect the actual lives of real people. :)

Mark

13th September 2005, 11:41 PM

Well, its hardly unheard of to marry for money, particularly in a capitalist society .... :rolleyes:

Alam Shah

14th September 2005, 12:50 AM

From the Postman . ;) :DOh! I thought it came from heaven...:D. Some of mine came from the Customs Office. ;)

nechesh

14th September 2005, 01:34 AM

Well Mark, of course, you are right, it certainly is done, both here and abroad. But the romantic in me will continue to believe that true love is still alive, even here in in the greed-driven morass that is capitalistic America. :rolleyes:
:D
Unfortunately there are greedy people everywhere, regardless of the economic or political system of the country in which they live. Even in Indonesia as is evident from the sad story with which Purwacarita started this post. However, that does not make it the endemic nature of an entire people. :)

Rick

14th September 2005, 02:31 AM

Oh! I thought it came from heaven...:D. Some of mine came from the Customs Office. ;)

I'm sorry Alam Shah; I'd rather not mention sources in the forum .
Not meaning to be disrespectful , just discreet . ;) :)

John

14th September 2005, 04:39 AM

Boedhi, as always it has been such pleasure to read your posts. I like your wisdom and humour as well as the wealth of information you've took the time to share.

Purwacarita, what is important is the willingness to share and put things on the table and whilst views may be varied or relative, it's good to see what you've to say. No expert knows everything. Your mention on mahar does strike some cord and I've witnessed it practised a couple of times in my vicinity...

Rick, I guess your keris flew from down under? :D

Rick

14th September 2005, 04:14 PM

Rick, I guess your keris flew from down under? :D

John , the postman may have delivered it to me but in my eyes it came from heaven as Alam Shah has said .

We all know heaven is from above . ;) :D

John

15th September 2005, 02:03 AM

Very well applied Rick, from down under to from up above.

Andrew

15th September 2005, 02:56 AM

lol. :D

purwacarita

23rd September 2005, 04:13 PM

Hi Boedhi. Gurindam is not stories of symbolic language, it is an unspoken unwritten message contained gift. Because of unspoken and unwritten, the message is delivered using symbols in the gift. But I'd love to read how gurindam could be a form of 2 couplets poem in old malayan letter.

Is it like ...
- no keris, no hantus
- no keris, no commitment
- no money, no keris
- ...or no woman, no cry. :)
???

Well, Boedhi. It is not about who is correct or incorrect but about diversity in the horizon, it does not mean we have to go to the same school to get it right, because we don't. :)

I have told differently that ganja wulung is not to hide the ambition of the bearer, but to hide the identity of the bearer, because the identity of the bearer is symbolized in the ganja.
The blade itself is a balanced of 3 symbols at sor-soran, it can be balance between heaven, family, communities, etc. and the blade length symbolized 3 stages of human life, childhood, pubescense, maturity. There is another blade that symbolize the 4th stage, oldness, when people start their retirement and some of them opt to choose to withdraw themselves to woods to live as hermits. The tang position closer to gandik symbolizes the bearer to always closer to what the gandik symbolize(CE:certain god). The pamor is read as symbol of commitment, non-pamor is read as peace. The peksi is read altogether with the bowing blade as control of the bearer to stay straight though life is not as wanted. The luk represents orientation to meru, the straight blade represents steady fire. Ganja is the identity of the bearer uplifts sor-soran, symbolizes bearer must uplift and balance between 3 things that symbolized at sor-soran. Sounds like another sun. :rolleyes:

I don't think yoni describes esoteric, the recent invention shall be esoteric which decribes yoni. I hope you agree that keris is originally Hindhu weapon (of SEAsia?), and so it is nice to hear what Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat, but with all do respects, I think that he would not deepen his knowledge to the original source of Hindhu. Besides, Lingga Yoni, I think, does not concern with unseen and seen things, they are symbols of junction of 2 different energies.

Hi nechesh. The idea, for certain reasons can't be generalized in all actual lives of real people, unless those desperate people honestly admit and say, alright honey, I marry you for your money. :)

purwacarita

25th September 2005, 11:13 AM

In addition, Lingga Yoni is a part of philosophy ruabhineda, which says there are always 2 different kind in all things where Lingga Yoni implies only to 2 different kinds which complement each other. In context of keris, I think Lingga Yoni describes the complemental 2 energies within. Some says that the union of Lingga Yoni creates life, perhaps that's why this symbol also used in genital/sex.

nechesh

25th September 2005, 02:53 PM

Purwacarita, you seem to have a somewhat reversed way of looking at this, but in the end, perhaps we both have a similar understanding. :)
The Yoni IS a repesentation of the genitalia (sex organ) which obviously symbolized energies that are greater than the organ itself. The symbol is not used in "sex/genitals" as you suggest.
That is to say that the "map" should not be confused for the "territory". Yoni has had a particular meaning for a very long time. To suddenly change that meaning can be very confusing for proper understanding. Yoni is a symbol, and therefore the "map", or at least a character on the map. You seem to be using the word to embody the thing itself. For me it does not work. :)

Boedhi Adhitya

28th September 2005, 07:03 AM

Hi Purwacarita,
I apologize for 'misinterpreting' the gurindam terminology. I heard about gurindam a long time ago somewhere in my elementary/junior high school. http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sastra_Melayu confirm me that it is a form of old malay poet, the famous one is 'Gurindam Dua Belas' by Raja Ali Haji from Riau, Sumatera (1865). A good reading.
I believe, having the same understanding / interpretation on the words being used in communication (oral or written) would be very important. Thus, I accept the definiton of Gurindam as 'an unspoken unwritten message contained gift' exclusively when I'm reading your post. My Javanese neighbours seems confused when I asked them about gurindam :D Perhaps I'm asking the wrong men. Balinese would be more approriate, perhaps ?
Yoni or esoteric or tuah, wheter it is genital or not, fertility or birth, doesn't matter for such an ignorant people like me, as long as it has (in my humble opinion only) 'almost' the same meaning, that is, in this contex, 'the unseen/symbolic/energy' or what ever, but not something we can touch physically with our bare hand, like the blade itself.

I agree with you, that it is not about correct or incorrect, right or wrong. Keris cultures are fulfilled with many different customs/believe from many ethnic groups, islands and nation. Some kerises that are considered 'bad' and unprefered in certain group might be the most sought-after by others. Arbitrating this two different point-of-view would be the best 'cultural tips' for any keris dealers :D And certainly, we shouldn't go to the same school. We might choose Harvard, MIT, or Leiden University. But for now, I choose Mix Martial Art school :D

In the end, keris is a very subjective matters. Every keris lovers would have their own motivation on collecting kerises and have their own 'interpretation' about his keris(-es), and surely nothing wrong with it. But please remember, this should be kept as 'private domain'. Insisting our own interpretation to the 'public domain' would only result in disastrous discussion. On this subject, I quote Serat Centhini for "Javanese taste" cultural tips : "Poma Wekasingsun, lamun ana ingkang nyulayani, atuten kemawon, gerejegan tan ana perlune, becik ngalah ing basa sethitik, malah oleh bathi, tur nora kemruwuk.." (Serat Centhini, Vol. 2) which might mean "Remember my words, if someone argue on you (about keris), just follow his opinions, uneeded arguing better be avoided. It is much better to just comply with his words, then you may get advantages, and not clamorous.."

Last but not least, thank you for your another suns. It really makes my day brighter ;)

best regards,

boedhi adhitya

marto suwignyo

28th September 2005, 10:34 AM

Pak Boedi, your remarks on the difficulty you were having with Purwacarita`s use of the word "gurindam" make me very relieved. I have been thinking that perhaps I was the only one who could not reconcile the word as used by Purwacarita, with the meaning of the word as I understand it.

The reason your Javanese friends are looking blank when you ask them about the word is that it is not, to the best of my knowledge, a Javanese word . I think it may have a literary usage somewhere, but it is certain that it is never going to be heard in a conversational context in either Indonesian or Javanese.

My understanding of the word was as a you put it, but when I looked in a dictionary I found that it also means:- "an aphorism in two lines". "Aphorism" I understand to mean a short, very expressive observation.

I think I agree with you, that Purwacarita has given the word "gurindam" a particular meaning that does not appear to agree with the generally understood meaning of the word, so when he uses it we had best bear in mind the meaning he is attempting to convey with this word.

As for the use of the word "yoni", not very long ago I seem to recall explaining the use of this word. I accept that the use of language can change and words can at different times convey different meanings, but this continual fixation on "yoni" in a sexual context seems to me to be just a little extreme.

Pak Purwacarita, could you oblige an ignorant old man by telling us a little about the philosophy of "ruabhineda"?

I am unfamiliar with this word, and it seems, from what you have already said, that I really show know something about it. Perhaps senile decay is setting in a little earlier than I would wish.

I must admit, I am finding your unique views on keris related matters to be fascinating reading.

purwacarita

28th September 2005, 12:20 PM

Hi Boedhi. You don't need to apologize, :) I'm open to accept definition/understanding of others. I hope you don't think of me as arguing your post because it only speaks of my understanding of a little piece of Bali view, which you imply your view to nechesh as mine. Thanx for the link, I guess my gurindam is not what Malayan said afterall.

...And with respect to Serat Centini and so, ...bla bla bla, I won't follow wrong opinions, I won't argue it either, ...but I'll post what I think is right (though possibly it is wrong). Right or wrong, it is still my country, but when it's wrong, I won't be ignorant not to tell what I think is right albeit the decision is not mine. I'll decide only for me. :)

Hi nechesh. It's fine with me if that'll be your view. I can live with that. :D In my understanding, it is obvious that lingga yoni reserves greater meaning that genital and it has its place in the ruabhineda for quite a long time.

Hi Rick. The maker is mpu Jeno, isn't it?

~Ing ngarso sing tuladha, ing madya mbangun karsa, tut wuri handayani. :)

purwacarita

28th September 2005, 12:37 PM

Hi Marto. I was told that gurindam is used since Singasari and Sriwijaya. I have posted the story. I'm quite surprised that it sounds strange to you all. :)

I'll add later, I got to go right now. :)

~Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani :)

nechesh

28th September 2005, 10:49 PM

Hi Purwacarita. I am trying very hard to understand you, but our ideas seem to be missing each other somehow. :o I understand that communicating in English must be very difficult for you though your English is certainly better than my Indonesian :) , but still, i am having continued problems with not only your use of what i thought as commonly understood words (i.e.Yoni/Lingga) but also what i thought were Indonesian words, many of which i am unable to find in any Indonesian/English dictionary. So i will be the second one (the first being one of your own countrymen) to ask you for the definition of "ruabhineda". Also, since the large majority of us do not speak your language, i would kindly request that if you use it that you please translate it. Understand that i have emense respect for your culture and sincerely welcome your imput and that of other Indonesians in these dicussions on keris. Your imput is vital to our understanding of both keris in context of Indonesia today and your culture in general. But twice you have written "~Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani :) "
Can you (or anyone) please translate so that we might better understand each other. If it is a statement that is only made for the benefit of your fellow countrymen, then i respectfully request that you make it to them directly in private messages, not on this open forum.
I wrote in my previous post: "The Yoni IS a repesentation of the genitalia (sex organ) which obviously symbolized energies that are greater than the organ itself."
You responded to me by writing: "Hi nechesh. It's fine with me if that'll be your view. I can live with that. In my understanding, it is obvious that lingga yoni reserves greater meaning that genital and it has its place in the ruabhineda for quite a long time."
Frankly i am confused and cannot tell whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. How is my understanding different than yours? :confused:
I would NEVER argue your right to post the things you believe are right, but while i understand and have great respect for those who can silently hold true to the things they believe and not challenge those who they think are mistaken or misguided, i am not so sure such a philosophy would be a good idea in the context of a place of learning such as this forum. If i, or anyone, were to let remarks they feel are questionable go unchallenged it would only encourge forumites who didn't know any better to accept them as truths and misinformation would spread. This has happened far too often in the keris world. Even books by well respected scholars in the field have given birth to much erroneous information which many collectors hold to to this day. Just because it is in a book doesn't make it true. ;) I admittedly do not know enough about all you say to tell you you are wrong. But i do know enough to question the things you say. :) You asked a while back where your fellow countrymen were in these discussions, but when they speak up and disagree with you you seem to treat them with disrespect. Who should i believe as a seeker of truth about keris (and a few other things ;) ). When i question them the answers come more easily and make more sense (and jive with what little i already know). When i question you i get misunderstanding, sarcasm and what i sense as a general distain for my culture (please tell me i am wrong?). Please help me understand this. :confused:

marto suwignyo

29th September 2005, 12:02 AM

Pak Purwacarita, I regret that I have been misunderstood.

Your story is not at all strange. I think I have heard this story in one form or another previously, and I understand the ideas perfectly. Similarly, I understand the idea and practice of a gesture or action carrying an unspoken message. You and I both know that this is a part of Javanese culture and society, and anybody who lives in Javanese society needs to know how to read the message, and how to use the action to carry the message.

My only problem was with your use of the word "gurindam". However, after lengthy thought on this matter, I think I can see how it would be possible use the word as you have used it.

I do not in any way question your right to use language as you see fit. I regret that I was insufficiently astute to immediately understand your meaning. The fault was in my lack of sensitivity, not in your usage of language.

nechesh

29th September 2005, 01:56 AM

Thanks Marto for coming foward to clear up this misunderstanding. It certainly is good to know that there is some understanding between countrymen here and it lessens the confusion for me at least to know that the two of you are in agreement on at least this single word "gurindam".
But i am afraid my issues here go further than this single word and i hope we can all come to a clearer understanding of each other soon. This doesn't mean we all need to agree, just understand. ;) :)

purwacarita

30th September 2005, 12:36 PM

Nechesh, you worte You asked a while back where your fellow countrymen were in these discussions, but when they speak up and disagree with you you seem to treat them with disrespect. I'm sorry that my post was read that way I guess I'm not good enough to use English language or maybe I often used English words which read politely by coutrymen (like me), but read disrespect by Englishmen. If you can quote specifically which part I sound like that, please do so so I can fix that. I won't edit my post, but will post the clarification. I hope it works for you and for the countrymen.

Your understanding of Yoni is diffenrent from mine. I understand it NOT as a representation of sex organ and I have posted on ruabhineda but you seem to skip it.

The words Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani in my modest understanding will read the ideal philosophy of life, where if we are in front of things or if we feel superior of more powerful than others, we should give constructive examples through our daily deeds. If we are among others or in community, we shall share our constructive spirit (not soul). If we are behind the scene we shall be the driving force to motivate others to contructiveness. I hope I'm not wrong.

About gurindam, thanx to Boedhi I have another understanding. My last understanding is as I posted that it is a gift with symbols of an unspeakable message, while the message is usually unspeakable, it is usually sarcastic in order to echo the message in bearer's mind. But having gurindam said in poem like the Malayan's, I think that I could be wrong in putting the name gurindam to call the gift. Perhaps the correct one is that gurindam is the sarcastic method of message delivery where keris, poem, gift etc are only the media. Thus I think in Malayan gurindam version in poem, the poem itself is not gurindam, but by reading it, ones will remember something like his duty or commitment, and so the poem serves the purpose as gurindam. A mild sarcastic message to us in order to remember our duty/commitment. There, I think it's better.

~Hing ngarsa sung tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani. :) It's now a gurindam. :)

sigit subagio

15th October 2005, 03:33 AM

Pak Purwa, Sigit will please to ask Pak Purwa to tell what means it:-

Ing ngarso sing tuladha ing madya mbangun karsa tut wuri handayani.

Sigit very ashame and embaras because to ask this because Sigit Jawa pribumi and from Jember and parent from Matesih but Sigit no can Krama Inggil and already to ask to other people much and they not can understand also.

Please Pak Purwa can to write this with ngoko or with Bahasa Indonesia.

Please Pak Purwa no to write the filsafat however to write the word with ngoko or Bahasa Indonesia.

Please to forgive Sigit for stupid and for no good education because Sigit to cause Pak Purwa very much problem and difficult.

Sigit say one thousand time thank you to Pak Purwa for Pak Purwa understand and help.

My respect

Sigit.

ariel

16th October 2005, 04:08 AM

I am usually trying to stay away from the Kris issues: it is far too complicated and specialized area of weaponry and I know far too little about it to utter anything intelligent.
But what we are talking about here is not tangible aspects of an intricately and beautifully shaped piece of metal (blade)and some organic material on top (handle), but some mystical and supernatural things.

Yes, I know, we are supposed to be sensitive to other peoples' beliefs but the last time I looked outside, it still was 21st century. We can and should learn cultural aspects of the weapons we collect including the local lore, but out of curiosity: does anybody around here seriously and rationally believe in "esoteric properties' and "mystical powers" of this lovely weapon?
If the answer is in the positive, I'll be requesting an application form for the Flat Earth Society.

BluErf

16th October 2005, 05:09 AM

Whoa, a lot of good discussion has transpired since I last looked at this post in early September. :) It was a really informative look into the concept of 'Mahar' and more in the Javanese context. I'll just be 'sponging' off this thread. :) Thank you.

Hi Rick. The maker is mpu Jeno, isn't it?

The keris blade doesn't quite look like Empu Jeno's style, and also, I thought Empu Jeno would dress his kerises in Yogyakarta sheath and handle?

nechesh

16th October 2005, 06:42 AM

Kiai Carita

16th October 2005, 10:34 AM

Pak Purwa, Sigit will please to ask Pak Purwa to tell what means it:-Ing ngarso sing tuladha ing madya mbangun karsa tut wuri handayani.
.

Happy Ramadhan to you who are fasting,
and salaams to all,

Sorry to interupt the discussion but as we wait for Pak Purwa I think that I might be able to support the respected members of this discussion who hold the opinion that a gurindam is a form of Malay literature and a type of pantun. In traditional Jawa the term gurindam is not used. Traditional Malay poetry follows a strict form and the umbrella term pantun is used to describe the verses. Often the first two lines are merely opening rhymes for the last two lines:

Berburu ke padang datar
Mendapat rusa belang kaki
Berguru kepalang ajar
Bagai bunga kembang tak jadi

Hunt in the flat grass-land
Get a stag with speckled feet
Study unwhole-heartedly
Like a flower failing to bloom.

Yoni in keris terms was indeed introduced by the Solo Prince. I believe it is a confusing term and was accepted because it seemed right and was introduced by a Prince. If you must use the term yoni it should refer to th ganja, the lingga the wilah. However after walisanga Islamized keris these terms were no longer used in Jawa. Yoni was introduced by the Solo Prince to refer to the esoteric properties of the keris in a seminar in the 1980's and it is documented in EK Harsrinuksmo.

Ing ngarso sun (not sing) tulada, ing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani...

Is also a modern Jawa motto. It was thought up by Ki Hadjar Dewantara as the motto for teachers in Taman Siswa schools. Ki Hadjar himself was educated in Europe in around WWI and worked as a teacher in a Montessori school and was familiar with Steiner too. He came back to Indonesia to become the father of modern Indonesian education. A pity many of his principles are no longer followed. The motto means: In front I lead, in the midst I motivate, from behind I energise.

I also disagree that most Indonesians buy keris for their esoteric properties. I collect keris for their individual merit, the beauty and the workmanship, and the story the individual keris inherently brings with it as an artefact and this is what I learned from my father and his friends so has been going on for generations.

Warmest salaams to all,

KC

ariel

16th October 2005, 02:19 PM

First of all Ariel, there is a great deal of misunderstanding as to what magickal and mystical properties actually are. It's really hard to have a discussion about these things when we don't have a common definition of what we are talking about. If you choose to believe that the unseen world is non-existent i for one don't have any problem with that. Perhaps electricity, magnetism, gravity and even air itself also don't really exist because we can not see them. ;) Try reading a bit of modern physics if your interested in some deep mystic thought. :)
This doesn't really seem to be the proper forum to get into a debate as to whether or not such things exist. But to answer you question i suggest you pick up your application for your local branch of the Flat Earth Society. :D
To have my computer work, I need to connect it to the electrical outlet and if it falls off the desk it ends on the floor but not on the ceiling. Composition of air, its pressure and movement are easily measurable and you may try to hold your breath for a while or dive in your own bathtub to get a final proof of the air's existence. Where is the evidence that magic is real? I have recently read that 25% of Americans believe that the Sun rotates around the Earth .. Seems to me that Galileo died in vain...
As to the propriety of discussing such things on this Forum, I disagree. I have no problem with anybody maintaining his personal religious and occult beliefs. The minute these beliefs are expressed in connection with weapons (the topic of this Forum), they become a fair game for questioning. You would not hesitate to call me on the carpet if I posted here my personal belief that Shamshirs originally came from Nicaragua.

Rick

16th October 2005, 03:54 PM

You would not hesitate to call me on the carpet if I posted here my personal belief that Shamshirs originally came from Nicaragua.

You mean they didn't !?! :D :D

Seriously Ariel , swords and mysticism are historically and inextricably entwined throughout most Eastern and many Western cultures ; the cruciform shape of the European sword of the 12th and 13 century crusaders for example representing the sword as an implement of God's will ; Thulfiqar and the religious significance of the bifurcated blade to Muslims .

Nowhere is this mysticism more evident than in the keris .
I can see no problem with letting keris enthusiasts hash this subject out in the forum providing they do so in a polite and civilised manner .
I would however very much like to see this discourse continue in English because it is the 'lingua franca' of this forum .

I agree with you that we are getting somewhat mired in this thread and I think it is due mostly to language differences and interpretation .

The EEW forum is a buffet of sorts ; when passing through the line if you find a particular dish unappealing then don't put it on your plate . :)

nechesh

16th October 2005, 04:22 PM

My point Ariel is that you are "calling to the carpet" beliefs which are a matter of faith, not science. The measurement of the scientific phenomenon which you mention is all fine and good, but you must also remember that scientist have a way of developing methods of measurement that fit into the answers they are seeking. Probably why the answers keep changing as science continually develops "better" methods of measurement.(i just found out yesterday that Mt. Everest is actually 14 ft. shorter than previously thought :eek: ). So tell me, does sub-atomic material take the form of a particle or a wave? All depends on how you look at it. :)
Where is the evidence that magic is real? I don't need any. That's part of what faith is all about. My personal experiences are my own. I know what i know and don't need to qualify it by the scientfic methods of others. But i have had my own experiences with the unseen world which equal your experience with your computer's electric problems and picking it up off the floor after a fall.(i.e. they are very real to me) :) I have no great need, however, to prove them to you or anyone else for that matter. While i would have little problem calling ones science to the carpet, i would personally think twice before calling ones faith there.

Tim Simmons

16th October 2005, 04:36 PM

Talking about magic and weapons. That Wavooka chap who came up with the ghost dance and ghost shirts, there is a good illustration of magic found wanting in the face of science, or does or did his magic not count. Just a thought . Tim

nechesh

16th October 2005, 04:50 PM

BTW, thanks Kiai for adding a bit more depth and understanding to this discussion in a clear and forthright manner. I greatly appreciate your citing of the sources of certain phrases and beliefs as well, allowing us to put these things into time frames and better understand their meanings and significance.

rahman

17th October 2005, 01:59 AM

Berburu ke padang datar
Mendapat rusa belang kaki
Berguru kepalang ajar
Bagai bunga kembang tak jadi

Pak Kiyai

I'm afraid you just gave an excellent example of a pantun. A gurindam is a two-line rhyme. Pls see here: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules.php?op=modload&name=Subjects&file=index&req=viewpage&pageid=22

Emanuel

17th October 2005, 03:53 AM

Greetings,

I have been reading this thread with great interest, as (for me) it answers numerous questions about the keris, specifically about the shape. What makes them all so different, what causes their uniqueness, what defines them? Mostly what is their purpose?

So far, it is my understanding that the dapur and pamor are representative of many qualities inherant to the keris bearer. History, identity, personality, dreams, desires, passions, all of these are forged within the fabric of the keris? To me, the words of all the members here knowledgeable of the Indonesian/Javanese/Malay culture indicate that keris can be read much as Japanese/Chinese calligraphy is read. That the very act or writing -in this case crafting the keris- can tell everything about the maker, the bearer, and perhaps even the reader. I gather that all these properties are also extended to the ukiran, warangka, and the pendok.
To Sirs. Purwacarita, Marto, Nechesh, Boedhi and Sigit, is the keris so wholly symbolic of your culture(s), that it sums up its phylosophies and beliefs, its poetry and history? Was (is) the keris meant to represent all of one man's past, present and future, and is that why it was(is) such a private-intimate affair?

Is my understanding the least bit correct?
Regards,
Manolo

Boedhi Adhitya

17th October 2005, 04:52 AM

Hi, Ariel. Welcome aboard on 'keris forum' :)

Mysticism vs science is a very tought matter, and will never end in one final conclusion. Just like discussing the God's existence. It is philosophers' "play ground". I do respect your doubtful and skeptic opinion on mystcism. Today's world is fulfilled with materialism and positivism point of view which eventually gave advance to the science and human civilization. (some, will argue that it is nature destruction and certainly not an advancement).

Good philosopher would aware of limitation of science. It rely heavily on observation of phenomenon. An 'observation' would heavily rely on '5 senses'. Thus, blind men would observe the world quite different and make their own understanding on it. Red or blue, dark or light, have no meaning for them. And none of playboy's playmates is beauty/sexy. In fact, they may have their own understanding on 'sexy' :) Thus, modern science would see all unobserved phenomenon as unexist, while it is not necessarily true. Radiation, will never exist in science until Marie Curie, accidentally, observed the phenomenon. Thank's to her, today, it is "exist", with the help of radiation detector/geiger counter. Without this "help", radiation will be "unexist" until someone get sick, and in the old days, people would gave offering. Other limitation to science is "the phenomenon should be repeatable". Unrepeatable phenomenon would be seen as "random/accidential".

Quoting Tanpoaran on "Sangkan Paraning Dumadi" (which unfortunately, I believe, only Javanese could read it :( ), "Belief needs no evidence. Once the evidence is observable, it should no longer called belief. It's a fact. If it is a fact, it does exist whether you believe it or not". For many of us, mysticism would only be a belief / faith. But for some, it could be a fact of life. I know someone who has control the fire using his heirloom spear while his neighbour's house on fire. Other is immersing his 'Kebo lajer' keris on a pail of water and bath his cows with it to cure it. It's all work, and no science could explain. For them, it is a fact, no matter what science said. IMHO, those who believe in God would easily accept a "miracle". For them, life itself is a miracle. Those who didn't, would see miracle as "random / accidential happens". For me personally, nothing so 'weird' about it, just like a 'miracleous' pimple just pop-up in the morning :D Miracles happens every days. I would not "exagerrated" the keris' mysticism, and Ariel, someone, do believe it seriously (and try to rationalized it) ;)

Dear Mr. Manolo, I believe you have a quite good understanding ;). But please remember, this understanding only apply if the owner/bearer "match" it on purpose. Thus, while you may read the keris' purpose as it intended by the maker, you shouldn't 'expand/attributed' this understanding to the collector who own the keris just for the sake of beauty. But traditionally, match or not, you should treat the keris with respect 'as if' it is a match to the owner. To determine which one really 'match' the owner, you should pay close attention on how the owner treat his kerises, eg. which one he really prized of, proud of or love. Even so, this methods not always correct, especially today :D

Western approach would be to "control, dominate or overcome", while Eastern approach would always "seek in harmonies / balance". Understanding and giving some respect on this different approachs would "ease" our cultural understanding. Just my personal thought :)

Last but not least, happy ramadhan too Pak Kiai Carita and all of you who are fasting.

best regards.