Ivory Silver Swassa Barong

[Battara]

Greetings folks!

I just got this piece from Ashokaarts. The pommel is junggayan ivory with cord wrapping beneath. The punto sleeve is made of silver with a swaasa bottom. No laminations that I can see (etched). A smaller piece, but nice one.

Enjoy :D

[Robert]

Hello Jose, Yes a VERY nice one indeed!! Congratulations. Did it come with a scabbard? If not I can't wait to see the one you will probably make for it.

Robert

[Rick]

Sha-Weet !! :D

[Battara]

Thanks guys - no it did not come with a scabbard but I do plan to make one this year. Will post when done.

[kino]

No laminations that I can see (etched). A smaller piece, but nice one.

You've etched it already?? I'm surprised to hear that it's lacking a laminated blade. The hilt points it to an older piece.
What are the dimensions??

It's definitely a beauty....Big UP to you Jose!!!!

[CharlesS]

Goooorgeeeeez Jose!!! Looking forward to seeing it. Now you can stop lamenting over the one I have that is practically a twin.

[Battara]

Kino, I took another look at it and may etch it again - there may be laminations in it after all.

Dimensions: the whole thing is 20 3/4 inches long and the blade is 12 3/4 inches long.

Charles it is the same size as your great piece.

[Sajen]

Congrats Jose, beautiful Barong!

Detlef

[Battara]

Thank you folks. Just re-polished and re-etched and still no lamination. I think there were some problems with the original heat treatment and this may have done something to the lamination. :( Just a thought.

Still it is indeed an early piece and I like the ivory, silver, and swassa. :)

[Battara]

Another recent thought - on some very high end pieces the emphasis was on the hilt and not the blade, meaning a plain blade. My ivory kampilan has this feature and I have seen ivory and silver kris with plain or nearly plain blades. I believe Cato talks about this as well.

[mross]

Another recent thought - on some very high end pieces the emphasis was on the hilt and not the blade, meaning a plain blade. My ivory kampilan has this feature and I have seen ivory and silver kris with plain or nearly plain blades. I believe Cato talks about this as well.

I'll go along with that, I also have a KP that fit's that description.

[Battara]

I'll go along with that, I also have a KP that fit's that description.
KP? :confused:

[mross]

sorry, KP = Kampilan

[Battara]

Is your kampilan a status piece as well?

[mross]

Is your kampilan a status piece as well?
Yes, whalebone.

[Battara]

Yes, that makes sense. Nice. I had a whalebone one too (sold it for my ivory kampilan) and it did not have a laminated blade either.

The other problem with this barong is that it does not have much of a temper line either.

[VANDOO]

CONGRADULATIONS JOSE YOU HAVE COMPLETED THE MORO TRIFECTA. 1. IVORY KRIS 2. IVORY KAMPILLIAN 3. IVORY BARONG. :D YOU LUCKY VARMIT. :cool:

[ThePepperSkull]

I love suasa (Second only to my affinity for silver); it's such a gorgeous metal to work with. That red hue is just beautiful.

I wonder, do you think the suasa part of the Punto was a later addition to this piece or was the inclusion of two metals on the hilt part of the original piece?

[David]

CONGRADULATIONS JOSE YOU HAVE COMPLETED THE MORO TRIFECTA. 1. IVORY KRIS 2. IVORY KAMPILLIAN 3. IVORY BARONG. :D YOU LUCKY VARMIT. :cool:
Isn't there an Olympic Gold Medal for that? :p :D

[Battara]

I wonder, do you think the suasa part of the Punto was a later addition to this piece or was the inclusion of two metals on the hilt part of the original piece?
I do believe that this was original to the piece. If it was added later, it was done early.

Thanks guys - trifecta - good for us here in Kentucky. :D I'm pleased. I am researching and designing the scabbard as we speak.

[mross]

I have a theory on these status pieces. This is just a theory, with no way to prove it one way or another. I believe the status pieces that do not show laminations are made with imported steel. Imported steel does not have to be folded to make it suitable for use, it already is ready to be forged to shape. Here is my line of reasoning. Status pieces are by definition commissioned by someone of high status, which usually coincides with wealth. I find it hard to believe that you would spend all that money on the handle and then take no consideration of the blade. I do not know how these where used but if they where drawn and shown about people are going to see the blade. Plus if things do go bad and you need to use it, you don’t want a blade that will not perform. So the use of imported steel would be another indicator of status, as very few could afford it if they could get it.
Comments, opinions?

[Battara]

Another possibility. Had not thought of that. May be similar to the unlaminated blades made by Chinese smiths in the Philippines.

[Dimasalang]

I also have my own theory of "status pieces" and why they typically do not have laminated blades. I have one non-laminated status piece(Kampilan) that is excessively large...it is very long, blade at the tip is large, and it is way to heavy for slashing...the balance is way off. Now-a-days in this day and age, laminations on a blade are seen as works of art and we now admire them...many fail to realize during that time a laminated blade was not for decoration but was specifically designed that way to last through battles; blade strength and balance took top priority over the looks of nice laminations. Non-laminated blades were essentially uniform with a much larger variety of looks to choose from, plus the fact you can shine them...can't really make a laminated blade shine. As my status piece has shown to have some type of brass mixed in to give off a golden look and hue to the blade. Having a laminated blade on a status piece may have been, not over kill, but to ordinary and typical for a piece that was meant for ceremony and decoration; and to them a laminated blade may have been considered impractical for that use. Even though the handles, scabbards, engravings, and shapes on some laminated weapons may have been elaborately designed; the laminated blades had a purpose, and that was strength above all else...so to me laminations were not mainly used as a decorative part of a weapon.
But thats just my opinion of the limited knowledge I have now. :shrug:

[Battara]

You have a good point as well. Laminations would be unnecessary for many status pieces, although my ivory inlay barong does have laminations as well as my silver hilted kris.

[Dimasalang]

You have a good point as well. Laminations would be unnecessary for many status pieces, although my ivory inlay barong does have laminations as well as my silver hilted kris.

Oh no doubt many status pieces also had laminated blades since it would look more traditional as well... I jus think the ones that don't were more likely for show. But I'm sure there were other exceptions also for weapons with no laminations that were stilled used for fighting.

[VANDOO]

THOUGH SOME HIGH STATUS WEAPONS WERE CUSTOM MADE AS SUCH THERE WAS ANOTHER WAY THEY CAME TO BE.
I HAVE PROVENANCE ON ONE KRIS WHICH IN ITS ORIGINAL STATE WAS NOT FOR STATUS BUT USED IN BATTLE BY THE FAMILY HEAD IN HIS YOUTH. LATER WHEN THE FAMILY HAD PROSPERED AND HAD PLENTY OF WEALTH THE ELDER TOOK HIS KRIS AND HAD IT UPGRADED TO A STATUS SWORD WITH IVORY, SILVER AND THE WORKS. SO HE STILL HAD HIS OLD BATTLE SWORD BLADE AND NOW ALTHOUGH IT WAS NO LONGER FOR BATTLE IT SHOWED HIS STATUS AND WEALTH. THE MORO ALSO HELD WEAPONS IN HIGH REGARD SOMEWHAT LIKE THE KERIS IS CONSIDERED A FAMILY PUSAKA BY THE MALAY AND INDONESIAN PEOPLE.

[Battara]

That was very helpful Vandoo, Dimasalang, and Mross. I think my barong was made this way for one already a datu (same with my ivory kampilan).

[kino]

Or maybe the blades were replaced with the mono steel variety. Sort of like selling the baka-baka, or other silver/ gold fittings, but in reverse, sell the nice laminated blades, replace it with mono steel and hide it in the scabbards.

I dont' believe that a datu would intentionally comission a non-laminated blade, I think that the blade would be just as important as the hilt. The datu would have to show the blade off, just as we do now as collectors.
Scenario: Datu Itom along with his posse bearing his ivory and silver hilted(insert weapon here), goes to visit Datu Puti's kotta. After all the nods, handshakes and baby kissing, they both retire to Datu Puti's crib. Datu Itom then unsheaths his (your choice), and shows off the nice twist core pattern, highly laminated blade. What does Datu Puti say.. :cool: . If it sported a non-laminated blade.... :eek:
I've had 3 whale bone kamps pass thru and all of them had laminated blades. I have also seen ~5 with laminated blades. Same with my barung blades with chinese characters- they all have laminated blades.

My theory is they have been replaced or maybe of post 1930's manufacture.

[mross]

Why is it that many think laminated blades are superior to mono-steel? They look much prettier and I whole heartily agree. I personally love the way they look, but it is an aesthetic thing and has nothing to do with functionality. Laminated blades come about because the steel used to make them has many impurities in it. The steel is folded to drive out these impurities making it suitable for sword making. Users of blades are not interested in how pretty they look but in how they perform. Prior to modern steel making methods this folding process was one of only a few ways to get quality steel. It is my theory that the polishing to show the laminations and other personalities of the steel where done as a form of advertising. The buyer could see the laminations and other activities and new that it was well made. Did they understand the metallurgy behind this? Probably not, but experienced told them that if a blade had these qualities it was a good blade that you could bet your life on. Because they did. If you take a couple of ball bearings (I’m using ball bearings because of the mention in the balisong thread) and forge to shape and heat treat it correctly it will perform as well if not better then any laminated blade. Please note the important concept here is heat treat correctly. The best steel in the world can be made useless if not heat treated correctly. As a side note a ball bearings most likely will be 52100. There is a very informative DVD by Ed Fowler on the high performance knife using this steel. I seriously doubt that many laminated blades would withstand the tests he put the blades through.

[VANDOO]

A BIG MACHINE IN A FORIGN COUNTRY MAKES STEEL BLADES AND EXPORTS THEM TO A COUNTRY THAT STILL MAKES BLADES AT THE FORGE BY HAND. WHEN THIS MONO STEEL IS FIRST SEEN EVERYONE IS IMPRESSED AND THE SALESMEN SELL AND TRADE LOTS OF THEM. THE TRADER PRESENTS A FANCY WEAPON TO THE DATU AS A SELLING POINT TO ATTRACT OTHERS TO HIS GOODS.
LATER IT IS LEARNED THAT A MACHINE MAKES THESE BLADES NOT A SMITH OR EMPU AND NO HANDS ON RITUAL HAS BEEN PERFORMED SO THERE IS NO SPIRIT OR MAGIC IN THE BLADE. THOSE WHO WORKED AND STILL WORK AT FORGEING BLADES WERE ATTRIBUTED TO HAVE SOME MAGICAL SKILLS THAT HAD OFTEN BEEN PASSED DOWN FOR GENERATIONS. SO JUST AS A SAMURAI WANTED A SWORD FROM A MASTER WHO WAS FAMOUS AND IN DEMAND IT IS LIKELY A DATU FELT THE SAME WAY.
THE PATTERNS STARTED BECAUSE OF THE NATURAL PROCESS OF USING SMALLER BITS OF METAL AND FOLDING THEM TOGETHER BUT SOME FOUND WAYS TO CONTROL AND DEVELOP PATTERNS. I HAVE NOT READ OF ANY POWERS ATTRIBUTED TO CERTIAN PATTERNS IN PHILIPPINE KRIS BLADES BUT HAVE LITTLE DOUBT THAT THERE WERE SOME JUST AS THERE ARE WITH THE INDONESIAN KERIS. THESE PATTERNS ARE A PLEASURE TO LOOK AT AND SHOW THE SKILL OF THE MAKER BUT I THINK THERE WAS MORE MEANING TO THEM THAN JUST LOOKING PRETTY THAT HAS BEEN LOST.
AS MENTIONED ABOVE SOME OF THE MONO STEEL DATU WEAPONS WERE MADE BY FORIGNERS WHO WANTED TO IMPRESS THE LOCAL DATU BY GIVING HIM A FANCY WEAPON TO HELP GAIN THE INSIDE TRACK FOR TRADE.
SO EVEN IF A MONO STEEL BLADE MAY BE AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN A HAND FORGED PATTERENED BLADE THERE WERE MAGICAL, TRADITIONAL AND SPIRITUAL REASONS TO WANT A WEAPON MADE IN THE OLD WAYS.
THIS IS ALL CONJECTURE BASED ON LOGIC BUT TO MY KNOWLEGE THERE IS NO WRITTEN PROOF SO THINK OF IT AS AN INTERESTING STORY NOT PROVEN FACT. :rolleyes:

[mross]

Blades made from mono-steel are still forged. So I guess I'm missing the point? :confused:

[ThePepperSkull]

I must be missing the point as well... Said foreign traders could have sold/given the datus or the swordsmiths steel billet blanks as oppposed to making a blade beforehand. This way, the forging process would still theoretically take place by the Moro Panday.

Also, I'm not convinced on Vandoo's argument because chinese-smith-made barong blades were often commissioned. I don't know if said foreign blademakers would have had the same forging traditions and rituals as the native Moro Panday. I doubt it though.

[Rick]

Also, I'm not convinced on Vandoo's argument because chinese-smith-made barong blades were often commissioned.

Hold on thar .. :D

How did we come to this conclusion ??? :confused:

[ThePepperSkull]

Sorry, I should have explained.

Often times a barong will have a chinese symbol stamped onto it near the base of the blade which, according to Cato (I think. It could have been from another source), means it was made by a chinese bladesmith.

Here's an example of a Barung blade made from a chinese smith:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=90552&postcount=29

[VANDOO]

IF THE BLADE HAS A CHINESE STAMP AND CAME COMPLETE AND WAS ALREADY A FINISHED BLADE PERHAPS A COMPLETE WEAPON. IN SUCH A CASE NO FORGEING WOULD BE REQUIRED LOCALLY AND IT WOULD GO STRAIGHT TO RETAIL.
IF A SHEET OF FINISHED STEEL WAS READY TO CUT TO SHAPE AND PUT ON EDGES AND FINISH THIS CAN BE DONE BY STOCK REMOVAL, AGAIN FORGEING IS NOT NECESSARY.
PERHAPS NAILS, BALL BEARINGS OR CAR PARTS WERE USED OR THE TRADERS BROUGHT THE LOCAL SMITH SOME BILLITS THEN LOCALS WOULD DO THE FORGEING AND IF THERE WERE ANY MAGICAL OR SPIRITUAL CEREMONIES THEY COULD BE PERFORMED PROPERLY.
I FEEL ITS DIFFERENT IF THESE CEREMONIES ARE PREFORMED DURING FORGEING PERHAPS ADDING A SPIDER OR SNAKE POISON OR SOME OTHER MATERIAL WITH MAGICAL PROPERTIES. I SUPPOSE A SHAMAN OR PRIEST COULD BLESS A WEAPON IMPORTED FROM CHINA OR ELSEWHERE BUT IT WOULD NOT FOLLOW THE OLD TRADITIONS.
I AM NOT SAYING A FACTORY MONO STEEL BLADE IS NOT BETTER BUT THAT OF THE TWO I WOULD PREFER A TRADITIONALLY MADE BLADE.
A DATU MIGHT HAVE WANTED A LARGE SUPPLY OF WEAPONS FOR HIS WARRIORS AND LOCAL SMITHS COULD NOT SUPPLY THEM AS QUICKLY OR AS CHEAP AS TRADERS. IT IS LIKELY A DATU OR MORO WARRIOR COULD GET A GOOD BLADE CHEAPER FROM CHINA OR OTHER PLACES BECAUSE THEY BROUGHT THEM IN BY THE BOAT LOAD JUST LIKE TODAY IN AMERICA. I HAVE NOT FOUND PHILIPPINE BLADES WITH CHINESE MARKS TO BE COMMON AND HAVE SEEN MANY MORE WITH NO MARKS. :confused:

THATS THE BEST I CAN DO AT EXPLAINING MY THOUGHTS I AM NOT REALLY TRYING TO MAKE A POINT JUST EXPRESSING MY THINKING ON IT. :shrug:

[Rick]

Sorry, I should have explained.

Often times a barong will have a chinese symbol stamped onto it near the base of the blade which, according to Cato (I think. It could have been from another source), means it was made by a chinese bladesmith.

Here's an example of a Barung blade made from a chinese smith:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=90552&postcount=29

Yes, I am quite familiar with the Chinese blades; I question whether they were really meant to be high status or some just ended up in nice dress .

I have seen these blades on lesser-than-datu-quality barungs . :shrug:
Anyway, we digress .........

[mross]

Ok, VANDOO, I think I see where you are coming from. However I was not discussing imported blades or stock removal. Stock removal requires a lot of grinding, which usually means electricity to power the grinders (the concept of stock removal by hand hurts just to think about). On the other hand to forge a blade only requires a hole in the ground, a source of moving air, something to hit with, something to hit against. The smith still forges the blade, the mono-steel just requires less work. Mono-steel sources could be imported billets, ball bearings, leaf springs just about anything really, though the most common are leaf springs and ball bearings. There is even a smith who is making a sword from an old toilet snake.

[Bill]

I think Vandoo has made some good points. Trade blades were listed on European manifests. I believe I was reading about Wallace & he mentions a large shipment of leaf shaped blades for trade in Celebes; in a ship he is hitching a ride from. I'd guess the Chinese would do the same.

I don't know if this is just by chance or not. I've got some Maguindanao kris that, when stained, have a beautiful marble like pattern. I also have some Maranao kris that are mono steel. By the file work, dress, I figure that both groups produced the swords around 1900. Earlier & later pieces of both groups vary in use of metals. So I assume the Maranao has a good source for mono steel, where the Maguindanao were collecting from multiple sources; at this particular point in time.

[Rick]

Ok, VANDOO, I think I see where you are coming from. However I was not discussing imported blades or stock removal. Stock removal requires a lot of grinding, which usually means electricity to power the grinders (the concept of stock removal by hand hurts just to think about). On the other hand to forge a blade only requires a hole in the ground, a source of moving air, something to hit with, something to hit against. The smith still forges the blade, the mono-steel just requires less work. Mono-steel sources could be imported billets, ball bearings, leaf springs just about anything really, though the most common are leaf springs and ball bearings. There is even a smith who is making a sword from an old toilet snake.

There was an awful lot of stock removal involved in making even the hand forged Moro blades. kris and barung.
An industrious apprentice with a file can accomplish quite a lot .

[Battara]

I still think that sometimes the cost of the hilt material was so great that the blade did not need to be laminated and thus cheaper to forge in some cases. I do consider however some of the wonderful and thoughtful arguments that many of you have forwarded - some very good points.

For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum.

[Dimasalang]

A lot of great points in this thread!

I like the idea of mono steel blades being cheaper for a Datu to finance a army of Moro warriors. Just like what is being done in todays military...cheapest bidder gets the contract. Not saying mono steel is inferior, as they are forged as well, just that they are easier, faster, and cheaper to press out. And as mentioned previously, master bladesmiths making laminated blades also had to be spiritual beings...these added mystical spells quite possibly were extra options. Something poor Moro warriors couldn't possibly afford. :D

I also like the idea of a dressed up mono steel blade being more of a advertising piece. Since most of these were very rare, maybe they were just hopped up to show off to Datus and/or for other cheap buyers to show how great these mono steel blades looked.

[mross]

There was an awful lot of stock removal involved in making even the hand forged Moro blades. kris and barung.
An industrious apprentice with a file can accomplish quite a lot .

Clean up yes, but there is a HUGE difference in stock removal to shape and forge to shape and clean up. By the way files are more of a modern tool, in the old days they used a draw knife.

[hideyoshi]

Or maybe the blades were replaced with the mono steel variety. Sort of like selling the baka-baka, or other silver/ gold fittings, but in reverse, sell the nice laminated blades, replace it with mono steel and hide it in the scabbards.

I dont' believe that a datu would intentionally comission a non-laminated blade, I think that the blade would be just as important as the hilt. The datu would have to show the blade off, just as we do now as collectors.
Scenario: Datu Itom along with his posse bearing his ivory and silver hilted(insert weapon here), goes to visit Datu Puti's kotta. After all the nods, handshakes and baby kissing, they both retire to Datu Puti's crib. Datu Itom then unsheaths his (your choice), and shows off the nice twist core pattern, highly laminated blade. What does Datu Puti say.. :cool: . If it sported a non-laminated blade.... :eek:
I've had 3 whale bone kamps pass thru and all of them had laminated blades. I have also seen ~5 with laminated blades. Same with my barung blades with chinese characters- they all have laminated blades.

My theory is they have been replaced or maybe of post 1930's manufacture.


I am with you Kino. A lot of this Moro aristocrats like to show off their status on expensively ornamented swords that's including the blade. My thought when I fist saw it at the seller's web site that the blade might be a later replacement. Not that somethings wrong with it. Only my tought.

[hideyoshi]

I still think that sometimes the cost of the hilt material was so great that the blade did not need to be laminated and thus cheaper to forge in some cases. I do consider however some of the wonderful and thoughtful arguments that many of you have forwarded - some very good points.

For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum.


Battara, I could be wrong, but I had seen a few examples of this type of barong blades but none of them were mono. I think the blade on your example was not etched.
Here are my two barongs.

[VANDOO]

STOCK REMOVAL HAS PROBABLY BEEN AROUND AS LONG AS FORGEING AS FAR AS METAL WORK GOES. THE FLAKEING OF STONE TOOLS IS A FORM OF STOCK REMOVAL :D
LARGE AND VARIOUS SIZE AND GRITS OF STONES HAVE BEEN USED SINCE THE STONE AGE AND ARE STILL USED. I SUSPECT THE FIRST MODERNIZATION IN THE PROCESS TO BE THE FOOT OPERATED GRINDING WHEEL AND I SUSPECT IT GOES BACK A LONG WAY. HERE IS A PICTURE OF THE TYPE CIR. 1800.
TYPES OF SMALL SAWS ALSO FOOT OPERATED WERE USES IN JADE AND STONE CARVING IN ANCIENT TIMES AND MAY HAVE BEEN USED IN METAL WORK AS WELL?. THE NEED FOR ELECTRICITY DOES NOT EFFECT THE ABILITY OF PRIMITACE SOCIETYS ABILITY TO TURN OUT SOME REMARKABLE CRAFTS. INDEED I HAVE SEEN FOOT 0PERATED LATHES, GRINDING WHEELS, POTTERS WHEELS AND OTHER PRIMATIVE MACHINES STILL IN USE IN MANY COUNTRYS TODAY.

[Battara]

Battara, I could be wrong, but I had seen a few examples of this type of barong blades but none of them were mono. I think the blade on your example was not etched.
Here are my two barongs.
HI Hideyoshi. I believe that the example is etched due to the darkness of the steel. But that is another issue.

You have some really nice barong blades there with nice lamination (would love to see the whole barongs if you don't mind posting them).

Here is a barong that I made the pommel and replaced 75% of the missing brass inlay. Very similar to yours, except after I polished and re-etched the blade, there were no laminations in the blade (the piece belonged to a former member here Ian). Below are the pictures. (I also made the scabbard):

[hideyoshi]

Here's another example from VVV's collection, you can almost see the lamination on the blade. Only four of this type of blades i have seen so far, 3 are highly laminated, the one from metropolitan museum is by far the best. Old moro blades tend to fade laminition due to age/time, re-etching the blade will place the laminations back.

[kino]

For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum.

I think this blade has its pattern hidden. Even if GC Stone etched this blade before he gave it away , the lamination lines would be obscured by over 70 yrs of storage, and I highly doubt that the museum would etch it.

[Battara]

Since it seems that we will not agree with the sultan barong, let us go back to the other issue. It seems that there are some datu pieces that have laminations and some that don't.

As I have said I do have a datu barong (and a datu Mandaya knife) for example that has laminations. However, I have several examples and seen other examples that do not and they support the notion mentioned by Cato that some datu/nobility pieces sport none laminated blades.

The reason is up for debate as we all have demonstrated here in this post.

[Battara]

Well took a break from other people's work and finally made a scabbard for this barong. Here are the pictures.

Enjoy! :D

BTW - I repolished and etched the blade - some interesting patterns there as you can see.