Basket hilted swords

[Cathey]

Hi guys

My first love has always been the basket hilted sword. I do not post very often as I have little spare time working hard to pay for my collecting habit. However, between Jim McDougall and my husband’s insistence I thought I should make more of an effort. I would like to start a thread devoted to Basket hilted swords. Note I have not said Scottish as there is a fine line between the Scottish and British basket, often it is difficult to say with any certainly which is which. I have attempted to start a thread on this subject ton other forums however there has been little interest, so here goes.

I currently have 20 Basket hilted swords in my ranging in age from mid 16th century to the end of the reign of Queen Victoria, which is supposed to be my cut off date.

Reference material, from my library:
SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND, BEZDEK, Richard H. Not bad general reference.
SCOTTISH WEAPONS & FORTIFICATIONS 1100-1800, CALDWELL, David H. (again general)
HIGHLAND DRESS, ARMS AND ORNAMENT, CAMPBELL, Lord Archibald
SCOTTISH SWORDS FROM THE BATTLEFIELD AT CULLODEN, CAMPBELL, Lord Archibald
Scottish Arms and Armour (Shire Collections) (Paperback) by Fergus Cannan (more a history book)
SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 – 1784, DARLING, Anthony D.
WEAPONS OF THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS Historical Arms Series No.33, DARLING, Anthony D.
Ancient scottish Weapons a series of ddrawings by the late james drummond
THE SCOTTISH DIRK Historical Arms Series No 26 Paperback Second Printing 1993 Museum Restoration Service, FORMAN, James D.
BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS, MAZANSKY (C.) (Probably the best reference book to come on the market).
BATTLE WEAPONS OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION, NEUMANN, George G. (excellent general reference to early British Swords)
EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution. OAKESHOTT, Ewart
SCOTTISH SWORDS AND DIRKS an illustrated reference guide to Scottish Edged Weapons, WALLACE, John
SCOTTISH ARMS MAKERS. A biographical dictionary of makers of firearms, edged weapons and armour working in Scotland from the 15th Century to 1870, WHITELAW, Charles E.
Scottish Sword 1600-1945: An Illustrated History (Paperback), WITHERS, Harvey J.S. (great pictures)
THE SWORDS AND THE SORROWS. An exhibition to commemorate the Jacobite rising of 1745 and the battle of Culloden 1746.

If any one can recommend anything not on this list let us know.

A friend of ours the Baron of Earlshall is writing what will be the definitive work on early basket hilted swords. It will be several large volumes and stop at the end of the 1700 hundreds (18th Century).

Now for a basket hilt to start this thread:

Date Circa 1540 - 1560 (16th-17th Century)
Nationality British
Over Length Overall 36 ¼ “(87.6 cm)
Blade length blade 32” (81.6 cm)
Hilt widest point The hilt is 6 ¼ “(16 cm).

Description BASKET HILT British backsword. Three segments of the guard (each comprised of three vertical bars) are linked by two small junction plates. The upper tips insert into the large, hollow Spherical pommel. The holes into which they insert have been enlarged to allow restoration of the grip and tang button. The grip is a replacement as is the tang. The thin single edged blade is contemporary with the hilt.

General Remarks
This sword was also used by Scots in the English Civil War. A similar example was excavated on the site of Basing House which was destroyed in 1645 and another recovered from under the Mary Rose in 1545.

The Baron of Earshall has requested pictures of this sword for his book and believes it to be English c.1540-50.

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi Cathey,

Nice sword, and great thread!

I swear your thread gives me a sense of deja vu - if the date you had joined wasn't this last October, I'd be certain I had seen this thread a couple years ago. Anyway, as I had just today tracked down a couple pictures of my own to send to someone here, I'll happily share my own (and lone!) example:

Scottish Basket Hilted Broadsword
Marked to 42nd Regiment of Foot (Black Watch)
Date: ca. 1790-1800
OAL: (approx.) 38 1/2 inches
Blade length: (approx.) inches 32 3/8



http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3759/p9050135.jpg

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8039/p9050136.jpg

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1579/p9050143q.jpg

[Cathey]

Hi LaEspadaAncha

Very nice sword, I have not seen a pattern sword actually marked to the 42nd before. Now you have me thinking abaout the black watch I will post the first of three that I have.

Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Nationality Scottish Black Watch 42nd Highland Regiment

English basket-hilted backsword A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, older straight single edged fullered blade marked FARARA. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an ?) with special button, wire bound leather grip.

If anyone can work out what is on the pommel I would be very grateful. I think they are numbers.

Cheers Cathey

[celtan]

Beautiful sword. I know there are a couple Black Watch swords around here, captured in 1797. I believe one is in Government hands, and out of reach for mere mortals, but I think I might have seen it once. There might be another in private hands, I'll check if its still around and hasn't left via the EB way. If I find it, I'll post some pics.

Best

M

Hi LaEspadaAncha

Very nice sword, I have not seen a pattern sword actually marked to the 42nd before. Now you have me thinking abaout the black watch I will post the first of three that I have.

Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Nationality Scottish Black Watch 42nd Highland Regiment

English basket-hilted backsword A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, older straight single edged fullered blade marked FARARA. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an ?) with special button, wire bound leather grip.

If anyone can work out what is on the pommel I would be very grateful. I think they are numbers.

Cheers Cathey

[Jim McDougall]

Cathey and Chris thank you so much!!!! This is absolutely wonderful, I've been hoping to get something going on Scottish basket hilts, and you both come in with Black Watch examples!!!!! :) Magnificent examples both, and Cathey, thank you for the comprehensive and detailed bibliography on the subject.
Its great to know that another book on Scottish baskethilts is in process, and this is long awaited, especially on those developmental styles up until the '45. Naturally after that and the proscription, most baskethilts fell into the military classification. As noted, the Mazansky reference is probably one of the most comprehensive resources on typology to date.

Cathey, thank you for sharing the outstanding example of these very early basket hilts. There has always been a great deal of confusion concerning the development of the Scottish baskethilt, and I think Claude Blair has done a great job on clarifying much of it in his work in the David Caldwell book.
Naturally much of the nonsense that was once held, such as the ancestry of the baskethilt deriving from the schiavona of the Dalmatians in Venice, which arose in the romanticized notions of some early collectors, has been put to rest.

One thing I would really like to learn more on, and hopefully we can develop here, is perspective on the symbolism often imbued in the work in these Scottish hilts. Whitelaw was probably the first to suggest that Jacobite symbols were covertly emplaced in the piercings and styling in these hilts, and to my knowledge this subject has not been approached in any depth since.

I recall years ago the subject intrigued me, and I set out on a course trying to discover more on this esoteric symbolism. One of the most interesting to me at the time was that of the heart shaped piercings in the saltires of the hilts. I contacted a number of sources including Professor Zygulski in Poland and Mr. Blair himself, and while they considered the subject interesting, conceded it had not been sufficiently researched to comment. As my search continued even Dr. Mazansky, whose notably important book was in progress at the time, pointed out that his interest was more in classification and typology.

Some time ago there were some discussions brought up concerning Jacobite symbols, one being the five point star, but stalled far before productive ideas gained impetus. The subject has since been dormant to the best of my knowledge.
I am hoping that here might look into the development of the Scottish hilts, the styling and forms as well as the symbolism I have mentioned.

With these outstanding examples of these Black Watch baskethilts, it is interesting to consider the profound influence of the heirloom Scottish hilts to the swords used by this incredibly important Scottish regiment.

The military swords in the 1750-70 period were typically produced in England by makers such as Jeffries and Drury in Birmingham if memory serves, and were faithfully designed with Scottish style baskethilts, as seen with the example shown by Cathey, but clearly with heirloom blade as seen with ANDREA FERARA markings. If I am not mistaken, these type hilts were often attributed to the Black Watch, as her excellent example supports.

Manolo, absolutely fascinating to hear of these Black Watch baskethilts there!!! I hope you can find more on them. It seems this regiment was quite represented in the America's, and it would be great to know more on thier presence there in San Juan....it seems I once saw an article about them in Georgia (USA).

It should be noted that during the 18th century, the basket hilt sword was favored for the cavalry, and prevalent with dragoon regiments such as the Royal North British Dragoons (who became known as the Royal Scots Greys).
An interesting feature on many of these hilts is an oval aperture in the hilt which is still debated as to its purpose.

The outstanding example of Black Watch baskethilt that Chris has shared here with regimentally marked hilt, appears to be a heirloom sword, which is a distinct rarity considering the confiscation of weapons after the '45. There is a lot of history here!

It is important to note that the name 'Black Watch' has nothing to do with dark colored tartans or any of those type associations. In the parlance of the times, the term 'black' referred to semantics such as hidden, covert or unknown, and this unit evolved essentially from secret police type groups within the clans. This same application is seen in the term 'skean dubh' for the small knife hidden traditionally in the Highlander stocking. The term 'dubh' in Gaelic = black, literally, but again meant hidden or unseen...skean= knife.
It is said that after the treachery at Glencoe, where Highlanders who had laid down thier arms in a visit were slain, that a small knife kept them armed even after thier regular arms were surrendered.

Thank you again Cathey and Chris!!!!! Fantastic thread and examples!!!

All the very best,
Jim

[Cathey]

Time to post another one

Type of Weapon BASKET-HILT
Date Circa 1714-1750 (18th Century)
Nationality English/Scottish Grenadier Company
Over Length Overall 101.5 cm
Blade length blade 87cm
Blade widest point Width 4cm at widest point near hilt.
Marks, etc Mark on Sword blade, possibly German trade mark.

Description BASKET-HILT English-Scottish 1714-1750 Brass hilted backsword, makers mark and British broad arrow signifying government property on both sides of blade. English Dragoon, plain tapering single edged blade. The open “S” design was adopted for brass-hilted horseman’s swords. This one has a three-quarter basket and a modified ovoid pommel. The quillon is omitted, but the counter guard’s bar bend out on both corners to protect the hand in that area. Its straight single edged blade has a 23.5 cm false edge and a 64 cm fuller.

General Remarks
Note: In the lately discovered regimental History of the Queens Own Hussars (7th Light dragoons) by C.R.B. Barrett and published in tow volumes in 1914, this type of sword is stated to have been used by that regiment, but at a date no later than 1714.

Cheers Cathey

[Jim McDougall]

Cathey, this brass basket hilt is pretty fantastic!
I really like the professional format in which you present these, and its great to have them shared here as references, it really is very much appreciated.

I think the period you propose is quite accurate.Interestingly Anthony Darling in 1974 noted that British brass hilted cavalry swords are rarely seen, but then curiously notes that the 3rd Kings Own Regiment of Dragoons had them (not necessarily of this type). I agree with the grenadier assessment you note, and would think of this as an English rather than Scottish basket hilt.

While Mazansky is great in assigning classifications, there is little information added in order to accomplish any pertinant research other than noting his classification numerals for identification. It would be helpful if the black and white photos noted whether the hilts are brass or not, as with the examples of this hilt shown. The book overall is outstanding as a reference for typology of basket type hilts, but for that aspect alone, and I really look forward to a reference on basket hilts with some attention to symbolism and historical details.

The interesting blade marking certainly suggests a Solingen blade, and this 'anchor' type mark is closely associated with devices like this in merchants marks, as well as makers marks of the late 16th through the 17th century. Despite these cross and orb, anchor, cross and patibulum type devices being associated with certain makers it is believed many became simply ornamental as talismanic marks or of course implied quality.

Where is the arrow marking situated?

Again Cathey thank you so much for these outstanding posts!!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Rikkn]

Here is one for you Cathey :D ..... This one was a prop for the 60's British T.V. series " The Avenger " ( hung on the wall of John Steeds office ).

[Rikkn]

Added picture - didn't work first time.

[Rikkn]

Trying again.....

[Cathey]

Hi Rikkn

Appears to be a copy of an early swept hilt rapier, not a basket hilt.

Cheers Cathey

[Jim McDougall]

Here is one for you Cathey :D ..... This one was a prop for the 60's British T.V. series " The Avenger " ( hung on the wall of John Steeds office ).

Hey man, who can remember the 60's!!!??? :)
Really though, gotta love the drapery rod quillon terminals.
Thanks Rikkn,

All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

Yep. Gotta remember the cool, leather clad Emma Peel...

Hey, kids got memories too!

: )

BTW, the lasso-guard sword looks too nicely designed for such an uninspiring crossguard/quillions.

M

Hey man, who can remember the 60's!!!??? :)
Really though, gotta love the drapery rod quillon terminals.
Thanks Rikkn,

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

... BTW, the lasso-guard sword looks too nicely designed for such an uninspiring crossguard/quillions...


En absoluto :eek: .

[Jim McDougall]

Well observed Manolo and Nando!
Good example of a rapier fabricated 'by the numbers'!!! and as Cathey notes, not a basket hilt......which would have followed different blueprints .:)
And yeah, I can see Emma Peel vaguely through the purple haze!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Mark Deyer]

Hi,
Here,s my contribution a 1731 dated one recently picked up from the family any info on it would be helpful.the inside of the cross gaurd is coverd in a black pitch type material and it is evident that it once covered the out side of the hilt as well the all is original,only thing ever done to it it has a old tape repair to the bottom of the scabbard.
Thanks Mark

[Jim McDougall]

Mark, this is an absolutely magnificent example of a mid 18th century British dragoon basket hilt! Welcome to the forum, and thank you so much not only for the grand entrance with this beauty! but for reviving this fascinating old thread.

The late Anthony Darling wrote his venerable article on these, "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword" in 1974 ("Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting" Vol 7, #3) and on p.86 (fig 7 group) is one which is remarkably similar to yours. This is regarded as an Anglo-Irish hilt type with a horizontal bar bisecting the arms of the basket, and these are believed to have been English made. The absence of the looping bars at the base of the basket seem another indicator of this classification.

Dr. Cyril Mazansky , "British Basket Hilted Cavalry Swords" (2005) classifies the pommel type as 'tall bun' (type IID) and on p75, the group of hilts in F1 seem to follow closely the basic design. These are again English dragoon hilts.

Darling (op.cit.) notes that while many of these dragon hilts were made in London and Birmingham, some were also produced in Glasgow and Stirling, which were garrison towns. The ring around the base of the pommel seems to suggest mid 18th around 1750s, and most examples of this period have this feature. It is noted that the British dragoon hilts were quite sturdier than the Scottish hilts, and of course plain without piercings and other motif.

I am not sure on the '45' which seems scratched into the scabbard throat. It does not seem to correspond to regimental numerals often seen (i.e. 42 was the Black Watch, 42nd Foot). Darling indicates this particular type hilt as seen on yours is in his opinion one the finest forms of these dragoon hilts, and these were apparently associated with the 6th Inniskillings (Heavy dragoons).

May we know more on the blade, length, any markings please . How is the 1731 date attributed?

Fantastic piece!!!!


All best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Mark, this is an absolutely magnificent example of a mid 18th century British dragoon basket hilt! Welcome to the forum, and thank you so much not only for the grand entrance with this beauty! but for reviving this fascinating old thread.

The late Anthony Darling wrote his venerable article on these, "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword" in 1974 ("Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting" Vol 7, #3) and on p.86 (fig 7 group) is one which is remarkably similar to yours. This is regarded as an Anglo-Irish hilt type with a horizontal bar bisecting the arms of the basket, and these are believed to have been English made. The absence of the looping bars at the base of the basket seem another indicator of this classification.

Dr. Cyril Mazansky , "British Basket Hilted Cavalry Swords" (2005) classifies the pommel type as 'tall bun' (type IID) and on p75, the group of hilts in F1 seem to follow closely the basic design. These are again English dragoon hilts.

Darling (op.cit.) notes that while many of these dragon hilts were made in London and Birmingham, some were also produced in Glasgow and Stirling, which were garrison towns. The ring around the base of the pommel seems to suggest mid 18th around 1750s, and most examples of this period have this feature. It is noted that the British dragoon hilts were quite sturdier than the Scottish hilts, and of course plain without piercings and other motif.

I am not sure on the '45' which seems scratched into the scabbard throat. It does not seem to correspond to regimental numerals often seen (i.e. 42 was the Black Watch, 42nd Foot). Darling indicates this particular type hilt as seen on yours is in his opinion one the finest forms of these dragoon hilts, and these were apparently associated with the 6th Inniskillings (Heavy dragoons).

May we know more on the blade, length, any markings please . How is the 1731 date attributed?

Fantastic piece!!!!


All best regards,
Jim


Salaams Jim, Lovely subject by Cathey! Perhaps this 45 is a reference to this Wikepedia historical page Quote''The Jacobite rising of 1745, often referred to as "The 'Forty-Five", was the attempt by Charles Edward Stuart to regain the British throne for the exiled House of Stuart, and recreate an absolute monarchy in the Kingdom of Great Britain[citation needed]. The rising occurred during the War of the Austrian Succession when most of the British Army was on the European continent. Charles Edward Stuart, commonly known as "Bonnie Prince Charlie" or "the Young Pretender," sailed to Scotland and raised the Jacobite standard at Glenfinnan in the Scottish Highlands, where he was supported by a gathering of Highland clansmen. The march south began with an initial victory at Prestonpans near Edinburgh. The Jacobite army, now in bold spirits, marched onwards to Carlisle, over the border in England. When it reached Derby, some British divisions were recalled from the Continent and the Jacobite army retreated north to Inverness where the last battle on Scottish soil took place on a nearby moor at Culloden. The Battle of Culloden ended with the final defeat of the Jacobite cause, and with Charles Edward Stuart fleeing with a price on his head. His wanderings in the northwest Highlands and Islands of Scotland in the summer months of 1746, before finally sailing to permanent exile in France, have become an era of Scottish history that is steeped in romance.'' Unquote.


See Below ..."The Battle of Culloden" by David Morier from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Culloden

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Ibrahiim, outstanding coverage on the Scottish Rebellion of 1745, the '45', and that had crossed my mind. While it would be tempting to presume this kind of patriotic imbuement, it does not fall into place with the nature of the sword, nor its placement, though I would not suggest spurious placement. Numbers placed in similar manner and in various locations may be inventory or issue related numbers, most of which remain unclear and outside most recorded explanations.
These kinds of swords were used by dragoon troopers in British regiments after Scottish subjugation, and while many were of course Scottish, it does not seem likely such a marker would have been in place on one of these swords.

I had forgotten to add to my earlier post that many forms of these English made basket hilts often had a feature within the arms and saltires of the structure an oval ring which has become generally held to be for use in holding the reins, and these are accordingly regarded as horsemans swords.
The absence of this feature does not preclude its use as a cavalry sword, but I wanted to include that detail for general reference.

[stephen wood]

Do you think this is one of the military pattern swords? It is marked "No. 16" on the hilt.

[A Senefelder]

Salaams Jim, Lovely subject by Cathey! Perhaps this 45 is a reference to this Wikepedia historical page Quote''The Jacobite rising of 1745, often referred to as "The 'Forty-Five", was the attempt by Charles Edward Stuart to regain the British throne for the exiled House of Stuart, and recreate an absolute monarchy in the Kingdom of Great Britain[citation needed]. The rising occurred during the War of the Austrian Succession when most of the British Army was on the European continent. Charles Edward Stuart, commonly known as "Bonnie Prince Charlie" or "the Young Pretender," sailed to Scotland and raised the Jacobite standard at Glenfinnan in the Scottish Highlands, where he was supported by a gathering of Highland clansmen. The march south began with an initial victory at Prestonpans near Edinburgh. The Jacobite army, now in bold spirits, marched onwards to Carlisle, over the border in England. When it reached Derby, some British divisions were recalled from the Continent and the Jacobite army retreated north to Inverness where the last battle on Scottish soil took place on a nearby moor at Culloden. The Battle of Culloden ended with the final defeat of the Jacobite cause, and with Charles Edward Stuart fleeing with a price on his head. His wanderings in the northwest Highlands and Islands of Scotland in the summer months of 1746, before finally sailing to permanent exile in France, have become an era of Scottish history that is steeped in romance.'' Unquote.

This is my understanding as well. My great uncle Max was president of the clan Maclean here in America when I was young and this is what he explained to me which sincs up with all that I've read since. It better be it's incorporated into a tattoo of the clans history I have.

[E.B. Erickson]

I'm a bit late posting here, but that's because I teach at an international school in Thailand but my sword collection is in storage in the US and is inaccessible for photography. Last week I was going through a box of old vacation photos and discovered a forgotten cache of pictures of many of my swords. This week I began scanning them and plan on posting a couple each day or two to this thread.

So first up is a Scottish basket ca. 1680.
38" de blade, with twin short fullers at the forte,and a shallow moderately wide fuller extending down the blade for about 8".
The basket is of flat ribbon construction, with the unusual feature of an oval panel on the side knucklebows; there is an oval panel on the front knucklebow as well.

More to come! --ElJay

[E.B. Erickson]

Scottish brass basket from the first half of the 1700s.
36" se blade with triple fullers, stamped on the left side with sickle marks and 3 dots at the end of the sickle's arcs.
Very large pommel to balance the blade, otherwise typical construction for one of these.
Grip is leather covered, bound with brass wire and Turk's head knots. I think that the leather is probably a restoration, but it looks OK.

--ElJay

[E.B. Erickson]

Scottish, ca 1680
33" de blade with central fuller engraved "ELVIEGO SAHAGUN". There's an indistinct circular stamp at the end of the fuller.
Basket construction is normal, but the smith elected to cut small rectangular slots in the pommel to receive the ends of the hilt. This is a feature usually seen on earlier ribbonhilts.
Grip has some wormholes and is covered in old hard leather.

[E.B. Erickson]

English hilt based on a heart shaped guard pierced with scrollwork.
Blade 35" se, with the typical narrow and wide fullering.
Grip is shagreen bound with copper wire

[E.B. Erickson]

Typical English munition grade military basket, probably ca. 1650 or earlier. The hilt has a few traces of engraved decoration.
34" de blade, signed in the fullers "ANDRIA FERARA".
Grip is a modern replacement, but is well done.

[E.B. Erickson]

English, ca 1700. Hit of thin bars with fleur de lis (?), hearts, and "hooks" (I don't know what else to call them).
34" de blade, inscribed in the fuller "IESU MARIA".
Grip is sharkskin, bound with a broken copper wire, finished at each end with gilt ferrules.
Mazansky p. 175 has a hilt that's essentially a twin to this one.

[E.B. Erickson]

English, ca. 1750 (?)
34" se blade with narrow back fuller. The blade bears a few traces of etching.
The grip is of rayskin bound with copper wire, and is a restoration that I did myself.
Mazansky p.144-145 shows similar hilts.

[E.B. Erickson]

English, last half of the 1700s.
34" se blade with wide and narrow fullers, has been shortened as the fuller runs through the tip.
The basket is semi symmetrical, with 3 scroll ended bars to each side, but those on the right are larger and have connecting bars. The hilt is of very robust construction, and is finished and done so well that I think that this is an officer's sword.

[E.B. Erickson]

English, last half of the 1700s.
36" earlier de blade of flattened hexagon section, stamped at the forte with 3 groups of pellet marks.
Grip is shagreen bound with copper wire.
Mazansky p. 207 depicts similar hilts.
Years ago I found an old "Museum of Historical Arms" catalog from 1964, and this sword was illustrated and up for sale. Price back then? $65.

[E.B. Erickson]

English, last half of the 1700s.
36" se blade with wide and narrow fullers, stamped "GILL".
Oval paneled hilt with oval rein opening on the left.
Shagreen covered grip bound with copper wire.
The detachable forward guard is a modern restoration.

[E.B. Erickson]

Scottish "Turcael", probably first half of the 1700s.
33" curved se blade with triple fullers, stamped "ANDRIA FERARA".
Shagreen grip covering and binding is one of my restorations that is done over the original (?) wood core. I had the sword disassembled to repair some broken hilt elements, and decided to recover the grip as long as things were already apart. The woolen tassel that can be seen under the pommel is original (?).

[Will M]

Great regripping job. Where do you source your fishskin. I can get ray but the finer fishskin I have yet to find.

[E.B. Erickson]

Hello Will,
By "shagreen" I mean rayskin. I just purchased a rayskin and used the section with the smallest denticles so it would approximate sharkskin.

I don't have a permanent source for sharkskin. I have picked up old dilapidated sharkskin covered scabbards on eBay, and once got an almost complete very old dogfish (dogfish is the correct species for Brit/Scots grips) skin. The only problem with the dogfish is that there are spots that have decomposed, and you can't tell until you try to recover a grip. The decomposed spots sort of dissolve when they get wet!

--ElJay

[Will M]

I too have rayskin but it's the dogfish I need. I believe they are similar to a small shark.
I don't believe any of the sword manufacturers would sell any as they want the business of doing the whole job, but shipping a sword to and from the UK is cost prohibitive.
Possibly to patch a spot one could use a thin layer epoxy putty and sprinkle on tiny beads and push them in to adhere. After dye it black.

[Cathey]

Beak Nose Basket Hilt Sword

Nationality Scottish
Date Circa 1600
Maker/Retailer Blade possible by Stamm Clemens Soligen?
Overall Length 38 3/8” 97.4 cm
Blade length 32 ¾” 83.3 cm
Blade widest point 2” 5.1 cm
Hilt widest point 6 ½” 16.7 cm
Inside grip length 3 ¾” 9.7 cm
Marks, etc. Two Crescent moons back to back

Description
Early Scottish Ribbon Hilted "Beak Nose" Broad Sword. The large Iron hilt forged from broad Iron bars and Large circular plates, with deep engraved line borders and circles. Large bun shaped pommel with button top. The grip of fruit wood and cut with spiral fluting, there are some cracks in the wood. Wide blade of 2" with five narrow fullers of various lengths, halfway down the blade is the blade makers stamp attributed to Stamm Clemens of Solingen. Blade length is 32 ¾".

Mark has been attributed to Clemens Stamm Soligen 1580-1610 by the late dealer Terrance Porter who sold this sword in 2001.

References:
DUFTY, Arthur Richard EUROPEAN SWORDS AND DAGGERS IN THE TOWER OF LONDON Published Her Majesty's stationary office 1968.13cplate 107
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp138-139 231.S & 232.S

I have another basket in my collection that also has the back to back crescent moons, however whilst similar in design they are not identical to this one.

I know there is a hand and a half sword in the Tower of London also bearing this mark, but I have been unable to confidently attribute either version to a particular maker and would be grateful for any other views on this subject and the opportunity to see other examples of European swords with this distinctive mark.

Cheers
Cathey and Rex

[E.B. Erickson]

Cathey - nice ribbonhilt! Yours is in way better condition than most, and it's got a good blade, too. Thanks for posting it!

Will - Dogfish is in fact a species of shark. I still have some of the old dogfish skin left; do you want me to send you a piece? If so, let me know how big a section you need and I'll see if I've got enough left for your purposes.

--ElJay

[Iain]

The sword with three fullers is more or less identical to the crescents found on blades common to African broadswords, kaskara and takouba. This version of the mark is typically later (19th century) than the more well formed crescent faces as seen in the sword on the left. A few examples attached.

So I am quite interested what comes out of this topic. :) Following with interest...

[Will M]

ElJay pm sent.

[Cathey]

Hi Iain

You are quite correct about the similarly as many Kaskara’s often have earlier European blades including those featuring the double moons. A number of those you have featured are probably German circa 1700 looking at the quality. The feel and sping of the metal will generally give you an indication of whether this is a locally forged blade or a European addition.

The sword attached hear and referred to in my previous post traditionally has this exact blade with this hilt as featured in NEWMAN, G.G. Swords and Blades of the American Revolution pp150, plate 265.s. Actually I am yet to see an example of this particular pattern which is quite distinctive with any other blade; however I have seen this exact blade on a number of other basket hilts of the same period.

Sword details
BASKET HILT Irish Dragoons Broadsword circa 1745
Nationality Irish – British Cavalry
Overall Length 107 cm (42.1 inches)
Blade length 90 cm (35.4 inches)
Blade widest point 4.8 cm (1 7/8 inches)
Marks, etc back to back crescent moons

BASKET HILT Irish Dragoons Broadsword circa 1745 this variation often called the “Irish Hilt” because of use by some British Regiments in the Irish Establishment in particular the 6th Inniskilling. It has a three-quarter basket hilt comprised of broad vertical bars joined by a middle horizontal strap. Broadsword, early double-edged blade bears two central fullers & crescent engraving.

General Remarks
The 6th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards were raised in 1689 to fight for King William III. The Regiment left Ireland in 1708 and did not return for 100 years fighting in the 1715 rebellion in Scotland were in Flanders and fought at Fontenoy in 1745, later at Waterloo in 1815 and Balaclava in the Crimea in 1854.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND pp 284
GARDNER, R. E. Small Arms makers Pp 368
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS pp66 nm
MAZANSKY (C.) British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology Of Basket-Type Sword Hilts. Pp229 Fig VIII4
NEWMAN, G.G. Swords and Blades of the American Revolution pp150, plate 265.s
Wallis & Wallis Sale No 473 5-6/5/04 Plate 5 lot 1341 Pp51


Cheers

Cathey and Rex

[Iain]

Hi Iain

You are quite correct about the similarly as many Kaskara’s often have earlier European blades including those featuring the double moons. A number of those you have featured are probably German circa 1700 looking at the quality. The feel and sping of the metal will generally give you an indication of whether this is a locally forged blade or a European addition.

The sword attached hear and referred to in my previous post traditionally has this exact blade with this hilt as featured in NEWMAN, G.G. Swords and Blades of the American Revolution pp150, plate 265.s. Actually I am yet to see an example of this particular pattern which is quite distinctive with any other blade; however I have seen this exact blade on a number of other basket hilts of the same period.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

Hi Cathey,

Thanks for the additional references. All very correct, a couple of the blades I showed are 18th century. The puzzle for collectors like myself on the ethnographic side has always been tracking down the crescents applied in Europe and associated makers as opposed to the habit of African smiths applying similar stamps after the fact so to speak.

I have to admit the form of the crescents show in this pattern I have more or less considered non-European due to the differences with the more elaborate crescents often seen. But I am quite happy to be shown to be wrong! I have always considered that quite a few of these blades turning up in basket hilts were 20th century combinations taken from kaskara/takouba (I am not trying to insinuate yours is).

So once again, thanks for the references!

[E.B. Erickson]

Regarding the African blade connection, I too have always assumed that these were later blades mounted in old hilts. However, last week Czerny's had an auction, which I viewed last night, and so I attach photos of lot 186. It's basically a twin to Cathey's, and I am now asking myself, is it reasonable to think that a collector or dealer in times past started a production line of this type of sword (Cathey's and the Czerny's examples aren't the only ones I've seen over the years)? I am starting to think that a more reasonable answer is that these are not composite swords, but were made this way for a cavalry regiment back in the 1700s.

Sorry about the fuzzy shot of the moon marks; I started from a tiny little thumbnail photo!

--ElJay

[E.B. Erickson]

More baskets of an English origin.

Grenadiers (?) half basket, 1750 (?)
30" curved se blade with single narrow back fuller.
This sword, although fairly pitted, is all original and does not appear to have ever been taken apart. The grip wire and wrap are long gone, but the ferrules remain. In spite of the pitting, there are traces of S HARVEY stamped on the flat of the blade.

[E.B. Erickson]

Another probable Grenadier's hanger, ca. 1750.
27" se blade, with single narrow back fuller, stamped with the running fox and SH as used by the Harvey swordmakers.
Grip is sharkskin wrapped with brass wire; ferrules are brass as well.
The guard base is an open heart, and this sword retains what appears to be it's original heavy leather liner.

[E.B. Erickson]

English/Scottish composed of rounded bars, arranged to form a basket of trellis form.
32" se blade, narrow and wide fullers, spuriously etched in the wide fullers during the 1700s with ANDRIA FERARA and various orb and cross marks.
Grip is sharkskin with gilt wires and Turk's heads (some wires missing).
The original scabbard is present.
The velvet liner is I think a later restoration.

[Iain]

Regarding the African blade connection, I too have always assumed that these were later blades mounted in old hilts. However, last week Czerny's had an auction, which I viewed last night, and so I attach photos of lot 186. It's basically a twin to Cathey's, and I am now asking myself, is it reasonable to think that a collector or dealer in times past started a production line of this type of sword (Cathey's and the Czerny's examples aren't the only ones I've seen over the years)? I am starting to think that a more reasonable answer is that these are not composite swords, but were made this way for a cavalry regiment back in the 1700s.

Sorry about the fuzzy shot of the moon marks; I started from a tiny little thumbnail photo!

--ElJay

I hope nobody feels I've derailed this thread by bringing up the African aspect. :)

Here's a couple larger images of the Czerny sword. It really does seem a twin.

[Will M]

I was quite leery of this one at Czerny's, the grip has no covering and is wood with red/brown and black as is the finish on the remainder of the sword.
Only recent rust is red/brown and it's not rust.
It very much looks like red primer with black paint applied and since then worn down.
I may be mistaken but I have never seen this colouring on a sword.

[Jim McDougall]

A fascinating topic, and Cathey as always presents superb examples along with outstanding support and documentation.

With the 'crescent moon' anomalies I would like to add my own notes and I pretty much concur with Eljay toward possible explanations.

As far as I have known, and I spent several hours going through Gyngell, Lenciewicz, Neumann, et al, there are no examples I can find of paired crescent moons at fuller terminus on European blades. It seems I saw one blade with something like it but not in the fuller aligned configuration.

The 'man in the moon' or crescent with face device seems to have derived from perhaps cosmologically oriented occult motif in Spain in mid to late 16th c. These figures also became somewhat allegorical in various themed configurations. Most often they were grouped with other devices and punzones to certain makers. The practice of course was adopted by Solingen by the 17th c.

The inclusion in this thread of the 'North African' connection is well placed as German trade blades using these kinds of marks became the prototype for copies of these applied by native artisans. Briggs (1965, p.88) states, "...I have seen no Tuareg weapon with half moon marks which I felt were surely European". This was in reference to the application of these half moons to blades with three fullers positioned much in the manner of the shown examples in this thread.
In his 'Records of the Medieval Sword' , Oakeshott describes the cases where many kaskara brought back from the Sudan after Omdurman had their blades removed to be remounted in hilts of various vintage, often medieval .
It does seem possible that this might be the scenario described by Eljay. I know that I have an old Indian pata which has a triple fullered kaskara type blade with cosmological motif as often seen on these bringbacks.

I know that Solingen is believed to have produced blades in the Mahdist period and probably post Omdurman specifically for export to entrepots in North Africa, and we have long tried to determine if perhaps these might have been stamped with these moons there. Thus far no evidence has been found as far as I have known. It is also known that the moon stamping was done in native centers as Briggs notes applications over many of the thuluth type motif blades.

I think that it should be considered that these blades could be German trade blades which might have been in kaskara (much as in suggestion by Iain).

I think the exception might well be the ribbon hilt with the broadsword blade with the fullers on each side near hilt flanking the central three. If ever there was a strong case for European use of paired moons on an early broadsword blade this would be it! Those moons look very European.

Regarding the 1745 example, what puzzles me is that I had always thought that 18th century British cavalry favored 'backsword' or single edged blades. That would be another question regarding this blade with strangely degenerated looking moons (as the case with the North African 'dukari').
Naturally it might be argued that officers often carried ancestral blades however, but the North African possibility is a consideration .

[E.B. Erickson]

And now for a few baskets from the continent.

Probably German, ca 1600.
32" curved se blade with single wide fuller, stamped with a mark on the left side.
Grip is a replacement that I need to replace one day, and the pommel may be a replacement as well.
Although of nice form, this is a crude munition grade basket of fairly hefty construction. There is a small curved hilt element missing on the left side of the hilt.

[E.B. Erickson]

German, also ca.1600
37" straight se blade with a single moderately wide fuller, stamped with a heart and cross on the left side. The heart/cross stamp has been tentatively identified as an Italian bladesmith's mark.
While the basket itself is typical, the long straight quillions are unusual, and I've only seen one other hilt of this type with quillions like these. The base of the guard consists of two solid shells, the left one with a thumbring attached.
This sword is in excavated and cleaned condition. The forward quillion is modern, and several pieces of the guard have been repaired. The leather covered grip is one of my restorations.

[E.B. Erickson]

German. I've seen these hilts dated from the 1550s up to about 1600.
41" straight de blade with a short central fuller in which is engraved IOHANNES.
Interesting hilt form that may have inspired Schiavonas. The oval members pierced with a slot defy identification, although I have heard a few hypotheses put forward (one of them x-rated).
The wire bound grip is one of my restorations, but the ferrules are original.

I first came across this sword in the early 1990s, when a collector that I knew got it out of a European collection. My aquaintance brought it to me because the grip was gone, and he wanted a replacement. The sword was covered in old, black, thick lacquer, which I suspect was used as a preservative in an old arsenal. The lacquer was to be removed as well. Where the lacquer resisted moisture and stuck firmly to the steel, the steel is nicely preserved, but where moisture penetrated the lacquer, some moderately deep pitting is present. So in the photos you can see areas of pitting, and right next door is a virtually pristine section of metal.

[cornelistromp]

@ Jim nice to see you back here :-)

@ E.B. Erickson
wow, nice
Iam still looking for one of those.
this type of basket hilt from the third quarter of the 16C, is extremely beautiful and extremely rare, there are only a few known to me.


the most beautiful I know of, is auctioned at Bonhams;

A Composite North German Basket-Hilted Sword
Sold for £2,640 (€3,602) inc. premium


Auction 14956: Fine Antique Arms & Armour from the Henk L. Visser Collection 28 Nov 2007 13:00 GMT

also pictures of two others from the same auction, the left sword was for a period in my collection, the inner guard is formed as a fleur de lis.

best,

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

A fascinating topic, and Cathey as always presents superb examples along with outstanding support and documentation.

With the 'crescent moon' anomalies I would like to add my own notes and I pretty much concur with Eljay toward possible explanations.

As far as I have known, and I spent several hours going through Gyngell, Lenciewicz, Neumann, et al, there are no examples I can find of paired crescent moons at fuller terminus on European blades. It seems I saw one blade with something like it but not in the fuller aligned configuration.

The 'man in the moon' or crescent with face device seems to have derived from perhaps cosmologically oriented occult motif in Spain in mid to late 16th c. These figures also became somewhat allegorical in various themed configurations. Most often they were grouped with other devices and punzones to certain makers. The practice of course was adopted by Solingen by the 17th c.

The inclusion in this thread of the 'North African' connection is well placed as German trade blades using these kinds of marks became the prototype for copies of these applied by native artisans. Briggs (1965, p.88) states, "...I have seen no Tuareg weapon with half moon marks which I felt were surely European". This was in reference to the application of these half moons to blades with three fullers positioned much in the manner of the shown examples in this thread.
In his 'Records of the Medieval Sword' , Oakeshott describes the cases where many kaskara brought back from the Sudan after Omdurman had their blades removed to be remounted in hilts of various vintage, often medieval .
It does seem possible that this might be the scenario described by Eljay. I know that I have an old Indian pata which has a triple fullered kaskara type blade with cosmological motif as often seen on these bringbacks.

I know that Solingen is believed to have produced blades in the Mahdist period and probably post Omdurman specifically for export to entrepots in North Africa, and we have long tried to determine if perhaps these might have been stamped with these moons there. Thus far no evidence has been found as far as I have known. It is also known that the moon stamping was done in native centers as Briggs notes applications over many of the thuluth type motif blades.

I think that it should be considered that these blades could be German trade blades which might have been in kaskara (much as in suggestion by Iain).

I think the exception might well be the ribbon hilt with the broadsword blade with the fullers on each side near hilt flanking the central three. If ever there was a strong case for European use of paired moons on an early broadsword blade this would be it! Those moons look very European.

Regarding the 1745 example, what puzzles me is that I had always thought that 18th century British cavalry favored 'backsword' or single edged blades. That would be another question regarding this blade with strangely degenerated looking moons (as the case with the North African 'dukari').
Naturally it might be argued that officers often carried ancestral blades however, but the North African possibility is a consideration .


Salaams Jim, This is a great example of our huge library resource being better than much of what is out there...almost .. In researching I found your comments in earlier forums most interesting...and of course what brilliant resources you have aboard the Bookmobile :) !!! and how great it is to see you back..

I was puzzled at first in seeing this blade with a basket hilt and wondered what the connotations were in trying to solve the equation... I need not have bothered as your explanation hits the mark...A straight forward blade from Sudan but made in Solingen brought home and reworked onto a basket hilt... My recollection of blade marks puts the original European stamp type with Peter Munich in Toledo?:....Then the mark moved to Solingen ....(I refer to your own thread on blade marks). On its way it would have been given the Dukari treatment...then the basket rehilt..

The European moons are quite different to the North African style which appear to be Islamic in the Dukari fashion... The European moons, however, had another connotation which seems to be anti Papal.

Hats off to all the other contributors of this excellent group of articles and the superb examples shown. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :)

[Lee]

These trade blades, as well as the ones with the etched sun, moon and stars, were quite widely distributed and may turn up in locally mounted swords from most any place that did not have a significant local blade making industry. There is another basket hilt with facing (away) half-moons that have been over-engraved to make them into thistles illustrated in the Park Lane Arms Fair catalog for 1996 in an article by the noted Scottish sword collector, the Baron of Earlshall (attached below).

I fell into one trap in my early collecting days when I bought a fine old Mexican / Spanish colonial espada ancha with engraved astral figures. A few months later I saw the same engravings in a book on a blade mounted as a kaskara and became convinced that my sword - as I was also told by a noted dealer at the time (1973) - was a made-up fake. I had no concept of the 'trade blade' back then. Years later I bought Brinkerhoff & Chamberlain in the same dealer's shop and there discovered that my treasure was exactly that. Fortunately I still had it. I have also seen other trade blades of a different form in both Moroccan nimchas and early American sabers.

The opposite trap is, of course, ever present and these trade blades do not offer much confirmation as to the source of the whole sword and so hilt elements must be very carefully scrutinized.

[ulfberth]

Cathey and EB, those are magnificent swords !
And Jim it so nice to read you again !!

Here is a german military sword with a basket hilt from the second part of the 16th century.
Provenance: it belonged to a group associated with the former Imperial seat at Schloss Ambras, Tyrol. The rapier and small sword Norman 1980 p. 151.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[ulfberth]

better format this time

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Jasper, and Ibrahiim and Ulfberth thank you so very much for the kind words!
These swords and the topics of trade blades, markings and their incorporation into many forms of ethnographic swords brings back many years of memories in research. Lee, the anecdote you share here of course brings back wonderful memories as well, and well illustrates how the conundrum of trade blades and their use in so many forms through many generations.

The term conundrum applies as these blades often took on new identities as they were refurbished into various mounts though their long and often quite eventful lives. While it is often tempting to regard blades in seemingly incongruent context as fakes or contrivances, in ethnographic circumstances most often 'recycling' reached elaborate dimensions, and these assembled pieces were honest 'working' weapons.

The very reason this forum, the European Armoury ,was formed as an extension to the Ethnographic Forum was to address the need to better understand European and other blade sources which constantly were present in ethnographic contexts. Very often these somewhat separate fields became emphatically combined.

In the case of this thread and the fascinating basket hilt topic, the digression to blades as present of some of these basket hilts is often key to proper identification and assessment of examples. This is the case with blades often found in kaskara as discussed, and occasionally there are other anomalies which must be evaluated in the same manner.

Getting back to the main topic, I would like to note that much as Lee has described in his anecdote, though the blade discussed seems to be a later example of course than this very early hilt, there can be other reasons for its presence in context. During the British Raj in India there seems to have been instances of examples of quite early swords being proudly worn by Indian officers and ranking individuals in native regiments. I can recall a photo for example of a ranking Indian officer c. 1890s holding an 18th century Scottish basket hilt. It seems this was not a singular case, and while admittedly tenous, I include the scenario only as observation for consideration.
There were a number of notable Scottish and Irish regiments in India in these times, and the idea of their officers having ancestral swords of considerable vintage does not seem unreasonable.

Incidentally, I have owned for many years, an Indian pata with very old gauntlet hilt......its blade, as pointed out to me in later years was distinctly a kaskara blade with the characteristic triple central fullers and astral themed motif much as seen illustrated on examples in Briggs.

[cornelistromp]

Cathey and EB, those are magnificent swords !
And Jim it so nice to read you again !!

Here is a german military sword with a basket hilt from the second part of the 16th century.
Provenance: it belonged to a group associated with the former Imperial seat at Schloss Ambras, Tyrol. The rapier and small sword Norman 1980 p. 151.

Kind regards

Ulfberth



Hi Dirk,

it is not a basket hilt to my standards, but defenately a very interesting and beautiful sword.
how is the transition from hexagonal to hollow(?) diamond shaped?
same as on the pictures?
I know 2 other swords with the same type of inlay also around 1570-1580.

see attachement.

best,
Jasper

[ulfberth]

Hi Dirk,

it is not a basket hilt to my standards, but defenately a very interesting and beautiful sword.
how is the transition from hexagonal to hollow(?) diamond shaped?
same as on the pictures?
I know 2 other swords with the same type of inlay also around 1570-1580.

see attachement.

best,
Jasper

Hi Jasper,

the blade looks identical in shape like the one in your pictures, its 4,5 cm wide at the crossguard and 92 cm long, the inlay in the middle is a bit different and it is definitely of hexagonal hollow shape.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[E.B. Erickson]

Here's some additional thoughts on the Irish 3/4 baskets like Cathey's.

They do exist with other blade types. The one in Mazansky shows but a single fuller, so not likely to be one of the Trade blades, as they all have triple fullers right up to the hilt. And on the first page of this thread is a sword posted by Mark Deyer - same basket as Cathey's, bun shaped pommel, and has what I would bet is a se blade with the narrow and wide fullering. I may be wrong about that, but one thing is sure, Mark's blade is a lot narrower than the one in Cathey's hilt.

This Irish style hilt also exists in full basket versions; see the attached photo.

--ElJay

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here's some additional thoughts on the Irish 3/4 baskets like Cathey's.

They do exist with other blade types. The one in Mazansky shows but a single fuller, so not likely to be one of the Trade blades, as they all have triple fullers right up to the hilt. And on the first page of this thread is a sword posted by Mark Deyer - same basket as Cathey's, bun shaped pommel, and has what I would bet is a se blade with the narrow and wide fullering. I may be wrong about that, but one thing is sure, Mark's blade is a lot narrower than the one in Cathey's hilt.

This Irish style hilt also exists in full basket versions; see the attached photo.

--ElJay


Salaams Eljay, Sir, I am a beginner to the world of this type of hilt however I am interested in the Irish Basket Hilt and where such hilts were manufactured... Am I right in thinking that this is only a terminology and that there was no actual Irish Basket but that the Scottish Basket was simply sometimes referred to as Irish. (depending on how much Drambuii was consumed) :)
I am especially interested in the Shotley Bridge Swordmaker and wondered if they made a lot of Baskets for remounts and or for blades from there... I note the running Fox and SH on an earlier post related to the Shotley maker.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Cathey]

Hi Eljay and welcome Ibrahiim

Eljay you are correct, when it comes to hilt construction, actually there has been one posted on this site in the past. However, it is the pommel that sets the so called Irish hilt apart and I am, yet to find an example complete with this pommel and a different blade. Although like everything there is sure to be one out there somewhere. I have attached a picture of the previous sword posted on this forum, sadly can’t see the blade so I hope Mark Deyer who posted this sword originally in July 2013 will share with us a picture of the blade.

When I refer to the pommel you will note that both the example you posted and Mark’s have the typical English bun pommel. The swords reputedly with an Irish connection have a more Scottish style of pommel, quite distinctive. It is this combination that I am yet to find with a different blade.

I was also thinking about our tendency to refer to many early swords as being composite in a negative light. In reality with Germany, Italy and Spain being famous for their production of blades particularly from circa 1500-1700, most extremely original swords would fit in the composite category. For example almost all Scottish basket hilts had imported blades, the Scott’s made great hilts but appear to have had little appetite for making blades when you could order excellent quality from Germany or simply take one off a dead Englishman and have it re-hilted.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Cathey]

With the very early baskets there is certainly been some research to suggest that origins between Scottish, Irish and English are very blurred. There is a particularly good article written on the Sword hilts of the Border Reivers which I will attach, not sure how well it will come up in Jpeg.

When it comes to Shotley bridge this is an interesting area and there are two small books available that deal specifically with Shotley Bridge. They are:
BYGATE, John G The Hollow Blade - The german swordmakers of shotley bridge SC 74 pp.
RICHARDSON, David The Swordmakers of Shotley Bridge, PB Northern History Booklet No: 37, 67pp.

Welcome to a fascinating area of sword history. The basket hilt has a certain amount of romance attached to it, but the variety and the fact that examples can also be attributed to Europe make it particularly interesting area of study. If only swords could talk we would know so much more.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex.

[Cathey]

Hi Will

Actually I think lot 186 at Czerny’s recent sale is correct. Looking at the way they photograph things I think the strange colour is just the way they have cleaned up there photo’s on the black background. If I lighten it up it looks pretty similar to mine, which also has evidence of a dark stain to the leather that is largely worn off. The sword was passed in so it is probably still available at the low reserve. If I didn’t have a good example already I would probably have go at this one.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[E.B. Erickson]

Cathey - OK, I now understand what you meant: the hilt construction plus the pommel type is only seen with the broad triple fullered blade. I am in agreement with that. The only exception could be the one illustrated in Mazansky.

Ibrahim - The term Irish hilt does not really refer to anything specific historically. Back in the 16-1700s it appears to have been used as a generic reference to basket hilts. Nowdays, it seems to be identified with a particular style of baskethilt construction as seen in the examples shown in this thread.

--Eljay

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Iain

You are quite correct about the similarly as many Kaskara’s often have earlier European blades including those featuring the double moons. A number of those you have featured are probably German circa 1700 looking at the quality. The feel and sping of the metal will generally give you an indication of whether this is a locally forged blade or a European addition.

The sword attached hear and referred to in my previous post traditionally has this exact blade with this hilt as featured in NEWMAN, G.G. Swords and Blades of the American Revolution pp150, plate 265.s. Actually I am yet to see an example of this particular pattern which is quite distinctive with any other blade; however I have seen this exact blade on a number of other basket hilts of the same period.

Sword details
BASKET HILT Irish Dragoons Broadsword circa 1745
Nationality Irish – British Cavalry
Overall Length 107 cm (42.1 inches)
Blade length 90 cm (35.4 inches)
Blade widest point 4.8 cm (1 7/8 inches)
Marks, etc back to back crescent moons

BASKET HILT Irish Dragoons Broadsword circa 1745 this variation often called the “Irish Hilt” because of use by some British Regiments in the Irish Establishment in particular the 6th Inniskilling. It has a three-quarter basket hilt comprised of broad vertical bars joined by a middle horizontal strap. Broadsword, early double-edged blade bears two central fullers & crescent engraving.

General Remarks
The 6th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards were raised in 1689 to fight for King William III. The Regiment left Ireland in 1708 and did not return for 100 years fighting in the 1715 rebellion in Scotland were in Flanders and fought at Fontenoy in 1745, later at Waterloo in 1815 and Balaclava in the Crimea in 1854.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND pp 284
GARDNER, R. E. Small Arms makers Pp 368
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS pp66 nm
MAZANSKY (C.) British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology Of Basket-Type Sword Hilts. Pp229 Fig VIII4
NEWMAN, G.G. Swords and Blades of the American Revolution pp150, plate 265.s
Wallis & Wallis Sale No 473 5-6/5/04 Plate 5 lot 1341 Pp51


Cheers

Cathey and Rex



Excellent detail. The 'Anglo-Irish' hilt in post #36, c.1745 is virtually identical to the one posted in "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword" by Anthony Darling (Vol. 7, #3, pp.79-96, 1974) in fig.7abc (p.86). Here the author notes that this style hilt was indeed associated with the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons noting the period as c.1740.
While the term 'Irish hilt' was often used collectively to describe 'Highland' basket hilts (Darling, ibid. p.84; Blair, 1962,p.86) these particular hilts, though distinctly British.....were termed Anglo-Irish for the connection to these Irish dragoon units.

In the example seen in Darling, the blade is 34", double edged and has one central fuller.
The Neumann example (265.S) is again identical hilt, but with two central fullers, and a note that a crescent engraving was present, but not otherwise specified.

In all the references I have seen on Scottish basket hilts, which includes most of those listed in these posts, the only triple fuller configurations have flutes on either side at the forte..much as seen with the c.1600 example with paired moons presumed Stamm Clemens.
While Stamm according to Gyngell (p.41) and Lenciewicz (p.66) show him using crescent moons, they were presumably among other marks and these were typically at the forte in those times.

As Iain has noted in post #38, the blade on the 'Irish' hilt dragoon c.1745 as well as images of the Czerny's example, are compellingly like blades used on kaskara (as well as takouba) in Africa from mid to latter 19th century. In actuality, the degenerated and stylized nature of the moons compares to many of these blades often termed 'masri' and the moons termed 'dukari'. These blades were indeed often German imports in the latter years of the 19th century, though may have come in earlier. Native armourers began making their own blades with this fuller configuration and the marks were strategically placed near the fuller terminals and believed to have magical connotation.

The example with the more artistically applied paired moons (believed Stamm) is exactly the kind of evidence long sought to find the ancestry of these crescent moons used in North Africa.
However what is puzzling on the other example (1745 Irish dragoon) and its counterpart noted as Czerny's item, is why would 19th century blades be present in hilts used in the 1740s?

While the point that it is true that Scottish, and for that matter many British swords, may be considered 'composite' as they are comprised of local hilts and imported blades....it is typically preferred that these pairings are within the working life of the components .
Since these dragoon hilts as far as known ceased use in the 18th century, the use of blades much later mounted in them is puzzling.
Obviously the question stands as , are these indeed German blades of the 18th century rather than kaskara 'masri' blades of late 19th c.?
If these are actually early German blades, then it is a powerful revelation in many years of research on these North African blades, and it would be amazing to prove that blades with these triple fullers and these corrupted moons were produced that early.

Dr L.C. Briggs wrote his venerable treatise on sword blades in North Africa in 1965 (JAAS, Vol. V, #2 pp.37-92) where he notes on p43, "...I have seen no Taureg weapon with half moon marks which I felt were surely European".

Sir Francis Rodd (1928) in "People of the Veil", p.233, "..the masri blades are made in the north. Most prized are those with two or three slight cancellations down the middle. The commonest masri blades bear two opposed crescent men in moon crescent marks".

[Will M]

Thanks Cathey, digital photos can change colour and tone from one to the next.
It can give false impressions.
I see one Australian dealer bought a few from that auction in Sidney.
I would not think there would be room for much if any profit but swords seem to be a strong investment now.

[Iain]

While the point that it is true that Scottish, and for that matter many British swords, may be considered 'composite' as they are comprised of local hilts and imported blades....it is typically preferred that these pairings are within the working life of the components .
Since these dragoon hilts as far as known ceased use in the 18th century, the use of blades much later mounted in them is puzzling.
Obviously the question stands as , are these indeed German blades of the 18th century rather than kaskara 'masri' blades of late 19th c.?
If these are actually early German blades, then it is a powerful revelation in many years of research on these North African blades, and it would be amazing to prove that blades with these triple fullers and these corrupted moons were produced that early.

Dr L.C. Briggs wrote his venerable treatise on sword blades in North Africa in 1965 (JAAS, Vol. V, #2 pp.37-92) where he notes on p43, "...I have seen no Taureg weapon with half moon marks which I felt were surely European".

Sir Francis Rodd (1928) in "People of the Veil", p.233, "..the masri blades are made in the north. Most prized are those with two or three slight cancellations down the middle. The commonest masri blades bear two opposed crescent men in moon crescent marks".


Hi Jim,

Just a brief footnote, as the owner of quite a few of these export oriented triple fullers, I have no problem with many of them being placed in the 18th century potentially. Certainly I would not say the majority are in the latter part of the 19th, but at least the first half of the 19th.

See known examples from colonial activity in Algeria etc with early dates which points to at least late 18th century hilting... :)

Anyways not to disrupt the discussion on the hilt types. Just wanted to clarify that in an African/non European context these triple fullers are probably falling into the 18th century as much as the 19th in terms of manufacture.

There are subtle differences between the older ones and the later ones, mainly to do with a more rounded profile of the blade, giving a slight arch to the cross section sloping to the cutting edges, while the later ones are completely flat on the faces of the blade.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

With the very early baskets there is certainly been some research to suggest that origins between Scottish, Irish and English are very blurred. There is a particularly good article written on the Sword hilts of the Border Reivers which I will attach, not sure how well it will come up in Jpeg.

When it comes to Shotley bridge this is an interesting area and there are two small books available that deal specifically with Shotley Bridge. They are:
BYGATE, John G The Hollow Blade - The german swordmakers of shotley bridge SC 74 pp.
RICHARDSON, David The Swordmakers of Shotley Bridge, PB Northern History Booklet No: 37, 67pp.

Welcome to a fascinating area of sword history. The basket hilt has a certain amount of romance attached to it, but the variety and the fact that examples can also be attributed to Europe make it particularly interesting area of study. If only swords could talk we would know so much more.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex.


Salaams Cathey and thank you very much for your excellent notes and fine detail...

Thanks also to Eljay and everyone for a most excellent thread...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jim,

Just a brief footnote, as the owner of quite a few of these export oriented triple fullers, I have no problem with many of them being placed in the 18th century potentially. Certainly I would not say the majority are in the latter part of the 19th, but at least the first half of the 19th.

See known examples from colonial activity in Algeria etc with early dates which points to at least late 18th century hilting... :)

Anyways not to disrupt the discussion on the hilt types. Just wanted to clarify that in an African/non European context these triple fullers are probably falling into the 18th century as much as the 19th in terms of manufacture.

There are subtle differences between the older ones and the later ones, mainly to do with a more rounded profile of the blade, giving a slight arch to the cross section sloping to the cutting edges, while the later ones are completely flat on the faces of the blade.

Thanks very much on the clarification Iain, and you're right, many of these triple fullered blades certainly could be attributed to the 18th century. As you recall it seems that these days, most of these kinds of blades found in North African settings are typically of 19th century. It is hard to say exactly what period of 19th century as blades were constantly recycled and used for often countless generations as well as intratribally traded.

My point was directed toward the dukari type moons of the masri blades, which as Briggs notes, were a phenomenon restricted to North African context. While many of these blades arrived in Africa from Germany entirely unmarked, at some point the native armourers added these talismanically significant paired moons probably to those blades as well as the copies of them produced locally.

The paired moons of the dukari began in context as well recognizable versions of the astral themes often seen on European blades. The moon was particularly key to tribal folk religion and probably adapted readily to their 'magical' perceptions, and duality is another often applied allegorical instance.
We know that swords, particularly in the case of the Sudan, were not necessarily widely used tribally until the Mahdist period. Until then most tribes used spears or makeshift weapons, as evidenced in these campigns in their outset. In time, the moons applied to blades (actually these occur more commonly on Tuareg blades which are typically smaller), became remarkably degenerated . They became less recognizable and almost geometric stylizations, as seen on the blades of our discussion on the 1745 Anglo-Irish hilt.

The question is..why would a German blade, even of that mid 18th century vintage, end up with markings of a type distinct to 19th century North Africa? and appear in a hilt form that ceased use by the 1780s by British cavalry units, and the terminus ante quem of these moons is 19th century with these in form likely the latter part.

All the best,
Jim

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I just want to put this to bed and get the thread back to its intended subject Basket Hilts not African blades.

Let me be clear, my sword has a German blade circa 1700, this has been confirmed by the Baron of Earshall who is the world’s foremost authority on basket hilted swords. I have seen at least seven identical examples and to even suggest someone ran around the world switching the blades over for 19th century African blade makes no sense at all. By the way one of these swords is a hand and a half in the Tower of London collection.

Variations of the crescent moon have featured on European blades dating back to the sixteen hundreds, if you want to know more go to:
SOCKEL Johan F HAANDSKYDEVAABENS BEDOMMELSE Volumes 1& 2 International Encyclopedia of the Firearms Manufacturers and Marks from 1400-1900
GYNGELL, Dudley S. Hawtrey ARMOURERS MARKS
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS

If those of you interested in African blades wish to continue your debate, please start your own thread, I beg you. I have been trying draw out those interested in Basket hilts for a long time and fear this attempt will also fail if we don’t get back on topic.

This being said I am now posting another basket in the hopes that we can get back on topic and encourage other basket hilt enthusiast to contribute.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Cathey]

Date Circa 1640-1660
Nationality Scottish/English
Overall Length 99.2 cm (39.1 inches)
Blade length 86.7 cm (34.1 inches)
Blade widest point 3.8 cm (1.5 inches)
Hilt widest point 10.5 cm (4.1 inches)
Inside grip length 10 cm (3.9 inches)
Marks, etc. Three Kings Heads

Description
Early Basket Hilt with flat bun pommel, wooden grip with large iron bands top and bottom. The Guard is made up of circular iron branches with two square junction plates and forward guards. The terminal of the side guards is crude with lined decoration. The plates have lined decoration at each corner. The branches join in three groups and butt up against the pommel. The blade is wider than the slot in the hilt. The broadsword blade has no fuller and is German bearing three king’s heads indicating Solingen manufacture.

General Remarks
Described in correspondence from the Baron of Earlshall as “Date c1640-1660, blade 17th century and contemporary to the basket and made by the Wunderberg blade makers of Solingen.

Cheers Cathey And Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Guys

I just want to put this to bed and get the thread back to its intended subject Basket Hilts not African blades.

Let me be clear, my sword has a German blade circa 1700, this has been confirmed by the Baron of Earshall who is the world’s foremost authority on basket hilted swords. I have seen at least seven identical examples and to even suggest someone ran around the world switching the blades over for 19th century African blade makes no sense at all. By the way one of these swords is a hand and a half in the Tower of London collection.

Variations of the crescent moon have featured on European blades dating back to the sixteen hundreds, if you want to know more go to:
SOCKEL Johan F HAANDSKYDEVAABENS BEDOMMELSE Volumes 1& 2 International Encyclopedia of the Firearms Manufacturers and Marks from 1400-1900
GYNGELL, Dudley S. Hawtrey ARMOURERS MARKS
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS

If those of you interested in African blades wish to continue your debate, please start your own thread, I beg you. I have been trying draw out those interested in Basket hilts for a long time and fear this attempt will also fail if we don’t get back on topic.

This being said I am now posting another basket in the hopes that we can get back on topic and encourage other basket hilt enthusiast to contribute.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

That is an excellent suggestion Cathey, and my posts on the topic of these African blades are of course clearly digressing from the theme of this thread which has been most informative and helpful on basket hilts. These swords are fascinating and very much deserving of continued research to add to core of extant data which exists, and often hard to obtain.

I will note that the contention concerning this blade on the Anglo-Irish hilt with anomalous crescent moons brings key attention to questions on the origins and development of these marks to which answers have been long sought in investigations on Solingen blades. Ironically, since Scottish swords as you have noted, were virtually always mounted with these blades, it was a quite likely context for this attention to arise.

I will post the blade topic on another thread as you suggest, and hope that participants here will continue the excellent discourse and focus on these basket hilts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

These trade blades, as well as the ones with the etched sun, moon and stars, were quite widely distributed and may turn up in locally mounted swords from most any place that did not have a significant local blade making industry. There is another basket hilt with facing (away) half-moons that have been over-engraved to make them into thistles illustrated in the Park Lane Arms Fair catalog for 1996 in an article by the noted Scottish sword collector, the Baron of Earlshall (attached below).

I fell into one trap in my early collecting days when I bought a fine old Mexican / Spanish colonial espada ancha with engraved astral figures. A few months later I saw the same engravings in a book on a blade mounted as a kaskara and became convinced that my sword - as I was also told by a noted dealer at the time (1973) - was a made-up fake. I had no concept of the 'trade blade' back then. Years later I bought Brinkerhoff & Chamberlain in the same dealer's shop and there discovered that my treasure was exactly that. Fortunately I still had it. I have also seen other trade blades of a different form in both Moroccan nimchas and early American sabers.

The opposite trap is, of course, ever present and these trade blades do not offer much confirmation as to the source of the whole sword and so hilt elements must be very carefully scrutinized.

Salaams Lee, I missed entirely your excellent pictures and the way the Dukari moons had been resculpted to form Scottish Thistles which initially I thought were Persian Split Palmettes... :o

How right is your comment on examination of the whole sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[E.B. Erickson]

OK, here's my last basket for awhile. I do have other basket and half baskets to post, but they haven't been photographed yet. I will hopefully have time in July to take pictures of them, and will post shortly thereafter.

French, ca. 1750 (?)
32” straight se blade with narrow and wide fullers. The blade has been shortened from about 36”, and is etched with the French royal arms, sun-in-splendor, and scrolls.
Brass basket crudely made of two halves, copper brazed together. There are 4 holes where the forward guard loops were riveted on. There used to be a scrolled “quillion” at the wrist, but this has been removed.
At first glance this looks like an English military sword, and when I first saw this sword and it's twin in a collection in Maine, that's what I thought they were. However, inspection revealed numerous detail differences between this and a product of the British Isles. The former owner produced a book, “The Auld Alliance”, by Wood, and in it was a photo of one of these with the riveted loops and the thumb scroll in place, and with a 36” blade (if my memory serves). The text stated that these were made for Jacobites who had fled Scotland and were serving in the French army. I mentioned above that there were two of these in the Maine collection: the only difference between the two was the blade etching. The other sword had a large panelled “VIVE LE ROI” on the blade. I did obtain both of the swords from the collector in Maine, but the other one was traded off years ago.

[Cathey]

HI Eljay,

Very interesting sword, your right at first glance distinctly British. Did you keep pictures of the other sword you traded, if so I would love to see them.

Cheer Cathey and Rex

[E.B. Erickson]

Hi Cathey,
Unfortunately, the other French basket was traded long before I began taking photographs of my swords.
However, it was literally a twin to this one, so just imagine a large etched panel with VIVE LE ROI on the blade and you've got it!

--ElJay

[ulfberth]

Hi Cathey and E.B.

I have collected basket hilts before but sold them like 20 years ago.
I have seen and sometimes see basket hilts that are of French origin or with French blades.
At one point I had one with a brass basket that was left at Waterloo, however I never found out if it was French or English or Scottish, it was in its scabbard with brass mountings, double edged blade with one fuller and rather short, almost like an infantry sword.
Anyway, here is one that is described as "Forte-épée écossaise de la 1ere compagnie des Gardes du corps du roi marquée "Vive le Roy - 1731"
wide shell combat sword forte, where sometimes contained the arms of France, the blade bearing the inscription "Vive le Roy"."

And the look of it is surely not French, If you would find a sword like this without inscriptions on the blade, one would never think of it as French.

It is present in the French le musée de l'Empéri Ancien régime

kind regards Ulfberth

[E.B. Erickson]

Hello Ulfberth,
I'll do some speculating about that sword that you posted with the French blade: the hilt is a Scottish "Glasgow" type hilt, and I would bet that the sword was brought over to France by a Jacobite, who then had it rebladed to show his new allegiance. If only these could talk!!

--ElJay

[ulfberth]

Hello Ulfberth,
I'll do some speculating about that sword that you posted with the French blade: the hilt is a Scottish "Glasgow" type hilt, and I would bet that the sword was brought over to France by a Jacobite, who then had it rebladed to show his new allegiance. If only these could talk!!

--ElJay

Hi ElJay, that is an logical thought and keeping history in account it could very well be the case here, and were one did this there were probably more that followed.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Cathey]

Hi Ulfberth,

I concur with Eljays thoughts on this sword and was wondering if you had any more pictures of this sword you could post. It would be great to see a close up of the hilt and pommel etc.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[ulfberth]

Hi Ulfberth,

I concur with Eljays thoughts on this sword and was wondering if you had any more pictures of this sword you could post. It would be great to see a close up of the hilt and pommel etc.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Hi Cathey,

unfortunately not the sword is the French Museum de l'Empéri
However I did find these, only with permission, with copyright
Bertrand Malvaux dealer in antique arms France.

The Original drawings by Michel PÉTARD pour l'ouvrage de Monsieur Christian ARIÈS «Les Armes Blanches Militaires Françaises» (1966-1990, 30 cahiers).

the disctription that goes wit them is:
FORTE-ÉPÉE À L’ÉCOSSAISE D’OFFICIER de la fin du XVIIe à la guerre de Sept Ans; planche 1, TOME V, 3ème fascicule 1967.

Kind regards
Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Ulfberth thank you so much for posting these amazing works by Petard!!!
This resource by Aries is hard to acquire, cost alone and not sure how many volumes in total, so very grateful for you sharing these....not to mention how intriguing it is to discover French versions of basket hilts!
I had no idea, but makes perfect sense since the Jacobite circumstances.

[Cathey]

Hi Ulfberth,

I agree with Jim these are fabulous drawings, it would be great to access an English translation of what text may have accompanied them in the original book.

Now here is an Odd Basket for consideration.

English Dragoon Basket Hilt?
Date Circa 1760-1780 (18th Century) ?
Nationality British Dragoon Basket (Scottish Regiment) -Scottish Patriotic Blade
Overall Length 107.2cm (42.2 inches)
Blade length 91.4 cm (36 inches)
Blade widest point 3.687 cm (1.5 inches)
Hilt widest point
Inside grip length

Description
English Dragoon Basket Hilt? with a Scottish 36 “ (91.4 cm) back blade with two fullers, double edged for last 11 “ (28.1 cm). Along the top of the area of decoration on the blade are the words “this was the sword of the immortal saviour” below this is the Scottish Lion flanked on either side with foliage decoration then below that the words “ Wallace Regent of Scotland A.D. 1298.”

General Remarks
This sword originally came to Australia from Arbour Antiques London where it was purchased by a friend many years ago. When Arbour received the sword, the blade had been completely bent over at the hilt as if someone had sought to destroy it or at least render it useless. My understanding is that Arbour had the blade reheated and straightened and the sword restored to its current condition. Reheating the blade has removed colour from one side. The sword has a typically English Pommel but there is an area of engraved decoration that does not seem to fit with the sword serving in an English Regiment. Along the top of the area of decoration are the words “this was the sword of the immortal saviour” below this is the Scottish Lion flanked on either side with foliage decoration then below that the words “ Wallace Regent of Scotland A.D. 1298.”

I have difficulty believing that an English soldier would dare carry a blade in the memory of William Wallace, or that a Scot serving in an English regiment would take such a risk. According to Pat Tougher “Scottish Sword and Shield” This sword is an odd one. The pommel and the basket appear to be English dragoon 1760 thru to 1780. The blade he feels is older, possibly a pickup form the battle of Culloden, 1746. He advised that there were many English troops who picked up swords after the battle and kept them as they were better than what they had. Pat has a few in his possession. Unfortunately with no writing on them.

Haydn Vesty, Australian Waterloo Sword Collector, believes it is a 1745 Etched Patriotic Blade, for an Officer in Scottish Dragoon Guards regiment, which were part of the British Cavalry.

I still think it would be either a very brave or rather stupid Scott to carry such a thing in an English regiment.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[E.B. Erickson]

Hi Cathey,
That is an odd one. If it weren't for the etching one would just ID it as an English cav/dragoon sword. What I really find unusual is the reference to Wallace.

Haydn Vesty's hypothesis seems like it would work, but are there any other examples of this type of etched motto on a sword from the 1700s so we can verify his opinion?

Here's another hypothesis: there was a revival of interest in all things Scottish in England in the first half of the 1800s (I'm not sure I've got the date right). Perhaps the blade was etched at that time. So you'd have a good baskethilted sword from the 1700s with later commemorative etching. But again, are there similar etched designs dating from the Scottish revival?

Just rambling. --ElJay

[Jim McDougall]

I personally echo Eljay's comments, this type of blade is indeed of 18th century English dragoon style, and of course Cathey's observations on the hilt as English and period are spot on.

There is an old 'axiom' that I have seen issued by Anthony Darling (I believe) which says loosely if it isn't a broadsword (meaning double edged, the term was used for both SE and DE in the 18th c.) then it isn't Scottish.
This seems to hold true as the dragoon swords produced for the British regiments were in accord with accepted military standards using single edged backsword blades.
It is a truly romantic notion that this blade might have come from the tragedy at Culloden, wielded by a patriotic Scot, but unfortunately not likely.
This tragic day was of course furthered by the disrespectful and patently heinous act of dismantling the broadswords of fallen Scots there, and using some of them in a garish garden fence.

As Eljay has well noted, the style of etching and likely even the content seem to correspond to the heightened awareness and revival of things Scottish in the Victorian era. In these times of course there was great attention to Scottish lore, history and fashion . Even the Royals would wear kilts etc. and in the military, officers in particular were rightfully proud of their Scottish heritage.
The '45 was a century or more in the past, and Scottish heritage was not only flaunted but a mark of prestige.

I think this blade more likely decorated later, though the blade seems of the period of the hilt. Despite the fact it is a sword of troopers grade in the hilt, it does not seem unlikely that an officer in a British cavalry unit might have had this sword beautifully inscribed reflecting the pride of the true Scots and their heritage.

[E.B. Erickson]

Hi Jim,
If Darling said that, then I'd have to disagree with someone considered an authority. Take a look at most of the swords produced by Walter Allan: backswords are in the majority. And how about the Scottish Turcael?

Just to get a sampling of how many back versus broadswords one finds in a Scottish context, I got out my copy of "Culloden; the Swords and the Sorrows". Out of 50 Scottish baskets shown, 20 have backsword blades. That's 40%. And, consider the blades that have Scottish patriotic mottos ("Prosperity to Scotland and No Union"; "God save King James") that date from the early 1700s: they're all backsword blades (well, the ones I've seen are, but I imagine there's a broadsword out there somewhere).

Concerning English cav/dragoon swords, the backsword does predominate in the 1700s, but there are still broadsword blades in an English cavalry context. In "Culloden", sword 1.52, while not a baskethilt, is an English cav sword. I think that one of these is in Neumann as well. And while the troopers mainly received back blades, the officers could do what they pleased, so you do find their swords with broadsword blades. Maybe later I'll get out Mazansky and do some tallying!

--ElJay

[Jim McDougall]

Great Eljay!! Here I thought I had this all figured out!!!:)
I would have to dig a bit to find those words cited, but after your beautifully supported rebuttal, I would hate to tarnish whoever it was who wrote them.

Naturally, with arms as with most things, there are countless exceptions for every rule and I must admit that most desperate attempts at neatly and concisely cataloguing, classifying and rigidly identifying certain forms are usually pretty futile. I will say however that Oakeshott, Norman and Mazansky did set some pretty reliable 'guidelines'. Even Norman however steered clear of blades due to the constant flux of trade blades and refurbishing using incongruent blade forms during the often extending working lives of sword hilts.

Thank you for the clarification, which clearly reflects the tremendous knowledge you have on these swords gained through decades of experience. Nicely stated, and it's great having your posts here!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I went back to my file of correspondence with the Baron of Earlshall, and noted that this sword was one he requested additional pictures of for his book back in 2007. The Baron dated the sword and blade 1745-65, he also thought the engraving may have been added around 1790. I still query the sanity of anyone having this particular inscription added to a blade they intended to carry in a British regiment. William Wallace was after all executed as a traitor to the English King, not something easily forgiven. Also, there had obviously been an attempt to destroy the blade when it surfaced in England, so evidently someone was far from happy about it.

Having seen the French basket hilts posted I began to wonder if this sword was actually carried by an Ex-Pat Scott living in France after Culloden. I believe Scots fought on both sides of the Culloden campaign, perhaps this one became Patriotic after he had left the country, sadly we will never really know.

With regard to Darlings comment “if it isn't a broadsword then it isn't Scottish” has probably been taken out of context. Jim as you say the word broadsword is often applied to blades that are actually backswords. I suppose it’s a bit like calling a basket hilt a claymore, when claymores where actually two handed swords.

In the end I concur with Eljay, the Scots had both Broadsword Blades and Backsword blades, and as most of these where imported they have no real relevance to whether a sword is Scottish or English. Generally I usually look at the pommel, if it is the common bun shaped it is likely English. Then of course there are all the other variations Spiracle, Cone shaped, flat bun etc. I have just popped a letter in the post to the Baron; hopefully he will confirm a publishing date for the first volume of his book soon.

While I have your attention Eljay, a while back you posed a question of Sword forum, when did the S disappear from the SH stamped in the Fox mark on Harvey blades, did you ever find the answer?

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Guys

I went back to my file of correspondence with the Baron of Earlshall, and noted that this sword was one he requested additional pictures of for his book back in 2007. The Baron dated the sword and blade 1745-65, he also thought the engraving may have been added around 1790. I still query the sanity of anyone having this particular inscription added to a blade they intended to carry in a British regiment. William Wallace was after all executed as a traitor to the English King, not something easily forgiven. Also, there had obviously been an attempt to destroy the blade when it surfaced in England, so evidently someone was far from happy about it.

Having seen the French basket hilts posted I began to wonder if this sword was actually carried by an Ex-Pat Scott living in France after Culloden. I believe Scots fought on both sides of the Culloden campaign, perhaps this one became Patriotic after he had left the country, sadly we will never really know.

With regard to Darlings comment “if it isn't a broadsword then it isn't Scottish” has probably been taken out of context. Jim as you say the word broadsword is often applied to blades that are actually backswords. I suppose it’s a bit like calling a basket hilt a claymore, when claymores where actually two handed swords.

In the end I concur with Eljay, the Scots had both Broadsword Blades and Backsword blades, and as most of these where imported they have no real relevance to whether a sword is Scottish or English. Generally I usually look at the pommel, if it is the common bun shaped it is likely English. Then of course there are all the other variations Spiracle, Cone shaped, flat bun etc. I have just popped a letter in the post to the Baron; hopefully he will confirm a publishing date for the first volume of his book soon.

While I have your attention Eljay, a while back you posed a question of Sword forum, when did the S disappear from the SH stamped in the Fox mark on Harvey blades, did you ever find the answer?

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Salaams Cathey, After getting slightly tied up in knots chasing non existent potential Irish hilt makers....which of course there aren't any...I then became drawn into a debate with myself about European Baskets....and then the inevitable twist which is the Schiavona.

I have my own theory on how this sleight of hand; ..The Irish Basket Hilt name came about based upon the fact that Scottish mercenaries to Sweden in the early 17th Century(1611) consisting of 800 such fighters were called Irishmen and that the trend continued but on the appearance of the basket hilt the term migrated to the hilt misnomer Irish Basket Hilt...simply by association...but a wrong one.

What I have discovered ...and it is understandable how the Earl has accumulated such a vast series of books and how difficult it must have been to stop taking notes/researching and start making the books! (and I will be after a copy of the collection soon as it comes out) is how convoluted the whole story is as it rolls out...In studying the Jacobite rebellion it becomes clear how many weapons were being supplied to the rebels and how many were sunk either by storm or by the English Navy and that a lot of these weapons came from /were collected by.. the French...who probably got them from Solingen ! or somewhere else...

What I found for beginners like me was a very reasonable account on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket-hilted_sword and an excellent set of resources at the end including excellent photos at external links . and although these are from Scottish Museum sources it doesn't matter...I hope this helps.

I think it sets the balance and helps the beginner view the entire puzzle as it comes together.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :)

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim thank you for the input here, and the interesting notes on the explanations regarding the Irish/Scottish misnomer, which indeed often became somewhat misleading. Interestingly the events you mention with the Scottish mercenaries in Sweden and Norway reveal an interesting potential for the source of the basket hilts which became known as 'Highland'. It is further interesting that those sabres with basket hilts in Northern Europe became known as 'Sinclair' sabres in a further misomer having to do with one of the officers of Scottish forces in these campaigns.

In looking further into this sword of Cathey's, which is indeed an intriguing anomaly, I think the possibility suggested for the engraving having been done c.1790's is of course quite possible. I also feel that the sword was most certainly that of an officer in one of the Scottish regiments, as these men were given considerable latitude in matters of kit and weapons. In those times of course, supplying troops was the personal choice and responsibility of the colonels of their own regiments, and officers purchased their rank and commission, so given those circumstances it is quite understandable such carte blanche would be afforded them.

Perhaps the use of this earlier style hilt of English dragoons and in a Scottish regiment of cavalry would better explain the retention of the earlier sword and better placement of 1790s in its use.
While the engraving of this clearly pro-Scottish commemorative on the blade would seem bold, it must be remembered that Scot's are vehemently patriotic and proud, and such fervor, especially on the sword of an officer, would in no way be considered subversive. Things were quite different politically by then, and celebration of heroes of such early times was certainly allowable. While nationality was of course always an ever present notion, they co existed in these units as 'British'.

There was also some degree of national tension between Scots and Irish, but in battle, units such as Inniskilings and Royal Scots Greys rode together with great respect for each other in battle, in my own perception.

With regard to my apparent 'gaff' on the predominance of the broadsword as distinctly Scottish, in further looking and still not finding the source, I am thinking the comment (obviously too adamant) may have been geared toward 'typical' earlier Scottish basket hilts. As noted in German records, the Scots preferred heavy broadsword blades, perhaps more for their notably distinct style of swordsmanship , and that these clansmen were basically 'infantry' rather than cavalry. The single edged blade in my opinion became popular in the 18th century for dragoons (though these troops fought on foot mostly) and later cavalry for mounted combat.

The use of broadsword (DE) blades on cavalry swords was of course certainly occasional, but typically in the exceptions noted. Naturally blades used often lent to availability in many cases, so that might account for variations. Rehilting of hilts such as those found at Culloden might have been ersatz examples using either captured or otherwise obtained blades from perhaps English sources. Cross traffic in blades of course knows no borders ( I have a 'mortuary' with Andrea Ferara blade).

I think the comment on the broadsword (DE) blades would have been better worded as Scottish warriors pre Culloden 'preferred' those blades, and the term 'axiom' left out :)

[stephen wood]

I also think the florid acid etching on the blade is Victorian or maybe earlier. The claim to be Wallace's sword seems ridiculous to us but would not have seemed so in the past. Quite a few swords said to have belonged to historical characters actually have provenance.

[Cathey]

Hi Stephen,

I think the engraving was purely patriotic, however I doubt we will ever know what the thinking was behind this one at the time. Anyway, I thought I would move on to another interesting area, the use of the S-Bar in hilt design. I note that Eljay has already posted one of his examples so I thought I would add this one with the unusual Black Jappaned hilt

BASKET-HILT Scottish Infantry Officer’s
Date Circa 1690-1710 (17th - 18th Century)?
Nationality Scottish
Overall Length 96.5 cm (38 inches)
Blade length 83 cm (32.7 inches)
Blade widest point 3 cm (1.2 inches)
Hilt widest point
Inside grip length
Marks, etc The numbers 1 5 1 5 inscribed in the fuller followed by to small marks inlaid with brass.

Description
BASKET-HILT Scottish Infantry Officer’s broadsword circa 1690-1710. Blade 32 3/4 ins. (83cm). Hilt retains japanning and is the S type basket. Blade is in good condition and has what appears to be the numbers 1 5 1 5 inscribed in the fuller followed by to small marks inlaid with brass. Grip is made of wood.

References:
AMERICAN SOCIETY OF ARMS COLLECTORS: BOOK OF Edged Weapons. Pp200 plate 5
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND pp 371
BOTTOMLEY, Andrew. Catalogue No 6 item no 580 Pp78
CURTIS, T. Lysle Price guide Militaria Arms & Armour 1993. Pp108
DARLING.A.D. Weapons of the Highland Regiments 1740-1780. Pp15.
OAKESHOTT, E. European Weapons and Armour. (See Claymore) pp 175-182.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

In this particular example, the hilt is in my opinion of the time period estimated 1690-1710, and a magnificent Stirling example. The blade is also of course of German manufacture, and probably indeed of that period. It seems these elliptical central fuller forms are also found in schiavona of this period in a number of cases, and I would note many of these blades also found later use in North Africa in the kaskara.

I would like to point out the inscription 1*5*1*5 , and note that this is of course not a date. These are gemetrically applied number combinations which were used, often with talismanically oriented motif and inscriptions.
It is suggested in Wagner (1967, p76) that these were often used by certain makers in particular, and notes that '1515' is recorded as used by the Solingen smith Mathias Wundes, of that long standing family there.
However, Mathias worked 1750-1784.

From: "Die Klingenmarke 1414(1441) and Related Numerical Signs"
Dr. Walter Rose
Zeitschrifte fur Historiche Waffen und Kostumkunde
Vol.14, XIV, pp.131-133, 1935-36

It seems that this inscription is indeed of the style in which such numbers were applied in this magical or occult sense, as described as well by Blackmore (1971), Aylward (1945) and Mann (1962) . What is curious are the numbers in which the ones are without serif, and the fives are rather in script with scrolled flourish, done in the style of 18th century magical motif of the 18th century.

Since the hilt on this sword is clearly of 1690-1710, and though the blade also seems of this period, would we necessarily adhere to the singularly noted reference to this number used by Mathias Wundes?
The Rose reference (cited by these later writers) is the only one specifying this maker to this number. Aylward (1945, p.104) states these numbers do not appear to have been the monopoly of any one maker.

That I tend to agree with, however, it is clear that the practice of applying these numbers in that magical connotation continued through the 18th century. I would be inclined to think this blade is of the period suggested but address the numbers and their peculiarities simply in exercise here.

I wanted to point out this significance here, and invite other examples and observations to these kinds of inscriptions found on these amazing hilts from Scotland and Great Britain.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim thank you for the input here, and the interesting notes on the explanations regarding the Irish/Scottish misnomer, which indeed often became somewhat misleading. Interestingly the events you mention with the Scottish mercenaries in Sweden and Norway reveal an interesting potential for the source of the basket hilts which became known as 'Highland'. It is further interesting that those sabres with basket hilts in Northern Europe became known as 'Sinclair' sabres in a further misomer having to do with one of the officers of Scottish forces in these campaigns.

In looking further into this sword of Cathey's, which is indeed an intriguing anomaly, I think the possibility suggested for the engraving having been done c.1790's is of course quite possible. I also feel that the sword was most certainly that of an officer in one of the Scottish regiments, as these men were given considerable latitude in matters of kit and weapons. In those times of course, supplying troops was the personal choice and responsibility of the colonels of their own regiments, and officers purchased their rank and commission, so given those circumstances it is quite understandable such carte blanche would be afforded them.

Perhaps the use of this earlier style hilt of English dragoons and in a Scottish regiment of cavalry would better explain the retention of the earlier sword and better placement of 1790s in its use.
While the engraving of this clearly pro-Scottish commemorative on the blade would seem bold, it must be remembered that Scot's are vehemently patriotic and proud, and such fervor, especially on the sword of an officer, would in no way be considered subversive. Things were quite different politically by then, and celebration of heroes of such early times was certainly allowable. While nationality was of course always an ever present notion, they co existed in these units as 'British'.

There was also some degree of national tension between Scots and Irish, but in battle, units such as Inniskilings and Royal Scots Greys rode together with great respect for each other in battle, in my own perception.

With regard to my apparent 'gaff' on the predominance of the broadsword as distinctly Scottish, in further looking and still not finding the source, I am thinking the comment (obviously too adamant) may have been geared toward 'typical' earlier Scottish basket hilts. As noted in German records, the Scots preferred heavy broadsword blades, perhaps more for their notably distinct style of swordsmanship , and that these clansmen were basically 'infantry' rather than cavalry. The single edged blade in my opinion became popular in the 18th century for dragoons (though these troops fought on foot mostly) and later cavalry for mounted combat.

The use of broadsword (DE) blades on cavalry swords was of course certainly occasional, but typically in the exceptions noted. Naturally blades used often lent to availability in many cases, so that might account for variations. Rehilting of hilts such as those found at Culloden might have been ersatz examples using either captured or otherwise obtained blades from perhaps English sources. Cross traffic in blades of course knows no borders ( I have a 'mortuary' with Andrea Ferara blade).

I think the comment on the broadsword (DE) blades would have been better worded as Scottish warriors pre Culloden 'preferred' those blades, and the term 'axiom' left out :)


Salaams Jim, Thanks for your reply...I would say that of all the sword styles affecting European Armoury that this form has the longest and most convoluted story of all. As you note the Sinclair and of course the Andre Ferrera detail included in this sword and in the peculiar moon blade marks etc make it a vital cornerstone for any study of European Arms...and it is hardly surprising that there will soon be a 7 volume work on the subject by the Baron of Earshall...For beginners, boffins and experts this will be a first rate background on which to hang their hat...
In my mentioning the Scottish Highlander Mercs of the Swedish Army ..that was in Stettin but the date is amended to 1630...I have the sketch but annoyingly I cant get it from one computer to the other but I have it on camera and will post soon..In respect of the earlier warriors I wonder when in fact the idea started for the basket hilt in Scotland... It isn't there in the Stettin sketch at all...

I note that the thread moves on to discus the S decoration and geometry to the hilt. I also see below the S shape a Fleur de Lyse further broadening the story. I note one or two other instances of the S shape particularly in the No 4 picture of the Border Reiver basket Hilts...kindly posted at #63 by Cathey. In fact staying with the Border Reiver story please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Reivers for a fascinating view of this situation that developed on both sides of the so called
border.

Sketching in some detail on the Fleur de lis from wikepedia ~

Fleurs-de-lis feature prominently in the Crown Jewels of England and Scotland. In English heraldry, they are used in many different ways, and can be the cadency mark of the sixth son. Additionally, it features in a large amount of royal arms of the House of Plantagenet, from the 13th century onwards to the early Tudors (Elizabeth of York and the de la Pole family.)

The tressure flory-counterflory (flowered border) has been a prominent part of the design of the Scottish royal arms and Royal Standard since James I of Scotland.

The treasured fleur-de-luce he claims
To wreathe his shield, since royal James
—Sir Walter Scott
The Lay of the Last Minstrel

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

This is an outstanding example, and Cathey I would like to say again how grateful I am that you are posting such magnificent examples of these basket hilts here!! Since these have been a true passion of mine since very young, it means a lot to see them and to have the opportunity to learn from them. There has been little written on them for many years, and I look forward to the Baron of Earshall's work. The fact that he has been working on it for so many years is testament to his keen attention to detail and accuracy, and I am sure it will be a monumental work for generations of collectors and scholars to come.

I wanted to add some notes regarding the blade and inscription, but placed it on a new thread so as not to detract from attention to the hilt work.
It is established that most writers on these hilts deliberately avoided attention to the blades on these swords to keep focus on the hilts, which are truly a complex enough subject alone, so I wanted to follow that course and avoid duplicating my previous faux pas.

I hope those interested in notes on this or other pertaining to the blades on basket hilted swords will visit the other thread as well. Thank you.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

While we have begun discussion on the use of crescent moons marking blades prompted by the present and outstanding thread on Scottish basket hilts, it seems other details pertaining to blades are apparent.

In accord with most references on Scottish basket hilts, as often with works focused on hilts, the subject of blades is typically avoided. Other authors have chosen to avoid discussions of these due to the wide variation of forms from trade and otherwise obtained blades.
I wish to offer some notes here pertaining to some examples of blades occurring on basket hilt examples so as to avoid detracting from discussion toward the hilts of these on the other thread.

In this particular example, the hilt is in my opinion of the time period estimated 1690-1710, and a magnificent Stirling example. The blade is also of course of German manufacture, and probably indeed of that period. It seems these elliptical central fuller forms are also found in schiavona of this period in a number of cases, and I would note many of these blades also found later use in North Africa in the kaskara.

I would like to point out the inscription 1*5*1*5 , and note that this is of course not a date. These are gemetrically applied number combinations which were used, often with talismanically oriented motif and inscriptions.
It is suggested in Wagner (1967, p76) that these were often used by certain makers in particular, and notes that '1515' is recorded as used by the Solingen smith Mathias Wundes, of that long standing family there.
However, Mathias worked 1750-1784.

From: "Die Klingenmarke 1414(1441) and Related Numerical Signs"
Dr. Walter Rose
Zeitschrifte fur Historiche Waffen und Kostumkunde
Vol.14, XIV, pp.131-133, 1935-36

It seems that this inscription is indeed of the style in which such numbers were applied in this magical or occult sense, as described as well by Blackmore (1971), Aylward (1945) and Mann (1962) . What is curious are the numbers in which the ones are without serif, and the fives are rather in script with scrolled flourish, done in the style of 18th century magical motif of the 18th century.

Since the hilt on this sword is clearly of 1690-1710, and though the blade also seems of this period, would we necessarily adhere to the singularly noted reference to this number used by Mathias Wundes?
The Rose reference (cited by these later writers) is the only one specifying this maker to this number. Aylward (1945, p.104) states these numbers do not appear to have been the monopoly of any one maker.

That I tend to agree with, however, it is clear that the practice of applying these numbers in that magical connotation continued through the 18th century. I would be inclined to think this blade is of the period suggested but address the numbers and their peculiarities simply in exercise here.

I wanted to point out this significance here, and invite other examples and observations to these kinds of inscriptions found on these amazing hilts from Scotland and Great Britain.


Salaams Jim...This is indeed interesting (I dive into library to study again your blade marks registry) ...and the detail on the blades must be considered along with the hilts.

These magic numbers I am more familiar with in the Islamic blade forms and it is fascinating to see the detail appear on European Swords and could they in fact be related to this ~ In ancient times, the pentacle was revered as a symbol of life, the five classical elements of Earth, Air, Fire and Water , joined with Spirit to create life. Wearing the pentagram was and is viewed as protection and as a talisman of divine life and good health..The figure 5 is a lucky number in many different parts of the world thus I point to the possibility of this ....note that the figure one is also interesting and perhaps related to the act of drawing a pentagram where the pen only needs to touch the paper once to inscribe all the sides of the 5 pointed star in the circle....and each number is interspersed with a star...albeit 8 lines but perhaps it is representative only...and of course the pentagon is a giver of life as well as a destroyer...thus the sword.

The blade origins of basket Swords are so diverse. As you know they start probably in Solingen... but fan out all over Europe....Earlier Sinclair must also be considered since he was using basket hilts very early...please see


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Sinclair_(mercenary)

and on that page a sketch of some of the 800 Scottish Highland Mercs wrongly named Irishmen perhaps the root cause of hilts later being refered to as Irish Basket Hilts...seen in 1630 ad near Stettin assisting the Swedish.

Then a rich Scottish banker bankroles a load of swords and guns from the French for the Jacobites but half get sunk courtesy of the English Navy....Blades appear with moons but in the European shape they are different; more clear cut and precise than the Dukie moons of North Africa...and the further we look into Arabia the rougher cut seem to be the moons....

It has always amazed me, however, how close the blades are in the Schiavona style.... :shrug:

For info I include the following reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket-hilted_sword

I add as fuel to the complexity the following from Wiki encyclopedia
the conundrum Andrew Ferrara.

Andrew Ferrara or, more correctly, Andrea Ferrara was a make of sword-blade highly esteemed in Scotland in the 16th and 17th centuries. Sir Walter Scott notes that the name of Andrea de Ferrara was inscribed "on all the Scottish broadswords that are accounted of peculiar excellence".[1] No historical person of that name can be identified, but Scott reports a general belief that Ferrara was a Spanish or Italian artificer who was brought to Scotland in the early 16th century, by either James IV or V, to instruct the Scots in the manufacture of the high-quality steel blades current in Renaissance Europe.

According to some sources the name of the manufacturer was Andrea dei Ferrari of Belluno, according to others, Andrew Ferrars or Ferrier of Arbroath.[2]

The term came to be used generically as a term for the Scottish basket-hilted broadsword.

Their method of manufacture remains much a mystery, but it is suspected that they were made by interlamination, a process of welding the blade in alternate layers of iron and steel. Andrew Ferrara blades were special in their extreme flexibility. For instance, it is said that Andrew Ferrara, the manufacturer of the blades, always carried one wrapped up in his bonnet. They rarely broke, even under immense force and when used to deal horizontal blows.

The reference further opens out and the reader can explore the old style fighting techniques with this weapon..

In this regard I make a plea to keep it together somehow so that the thread can be complete rather than split so ...otherwise it will be like having a huge treatise on axe handles....and another on axe heads? Perhaps there is a technique whereby two threads may be fused together later so that a whole all round concept can be seen under one roof?..Just my two penneth worth :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[cornelistromp]

it is unfortunate that this thread is a kind of controlled/guided and the debate is limited.

Any discussion about toureg blades in basket hilts, the different moon marks and about a subsequent 19th-century? dating of a Wallace related patriotic etching is interesting and should not be smothered but actually be discussed here without "censorship".

it is only one opinion, please see it as constructive criticism because it is a wonderful thread.

best,

[Jim McDougall]

I would like to thank you guys for the input, and would add here that I am fully in accord with your views......here each weapon should be observed and discussed openly and with unrestricted discourse on all aspects.
My thinking was admittedly toward early writers on Scottish swords such as Whitelaw who noted he had deliberately avoided attention to blades on these as they were virtually all imported. Obviously a book on Scottish arms makers would be less than well served discussing German blades.

However, here we are observing and examining wonderful examples of these incarnations of the melding of trade and vintage blades and wonderfully fashioned hilts and to learn from the stories these components in union can share with us.

With that I am going to reintegrate the other thread into this one, where it might be in proper union in the same manner, and fully open to discussion.
While I can understand how certain subtopics can become distracting, I am confident participants here can successfully maintain proportion in the overall discussion.

Thank you very much guys!

[Cathey]

Dear Jim

My understanding is the Ethnographic Weapons forum exists to deal in detail with weapons such as African broadswords, kaskara and takouba etc, unless I am mistaken this is the European Armoury.

When I started this thread in January 2009, it proved very hard to keep going as I had hoped it would be devoted to the Basket hilted swords and draw out like minded enthusiasts. Thanks to Eljay’s contributions, for the first time I feel encouraged that it might actually take off. If someone visits the thread expecting to see basket hilts and get drowned in debate over African blades I am concerned that they will just move on and I suspect we will lose the opportunity to see what else is out there in the world of Basket hilted swords.



Regards Cathey

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Cathey,
Let me clarify what I was trying to say here. I do understand the 'debate' on African swords was becoming somewhat distracting as obviously an African made blade has nothing to do with discussion on Scottish basket hilts, that is 'technically'. However the crux of the points toward the kaskara blade were whether the moons were European (i.e. German, the primary provider of blades for Scottish hilts) or indeed 'African'. The reason that was important was in determining the congruence of this blade with the hilt.

While somewhat digressive, it was in degree relevant to the discussion. However, I did agree that the discussion was becoming more complex on the moons, notably a distinct anomaly on blades occurring with Scottish hilts, so I moved to a new thread accordingly.

When it came to the '1515' blade, my objective was to avoid another digression to 'blade discussion', however my thinking in that respect was completely misguided, as well pointed out by Ibrahiim and Jasper, and I'm sure you agree, these swords should be discussed comprehensively on all aspects.

Therefore, my suggestion was to return my attention to the '1515' blade to this thread, and eliminate the other thread on blades on Scottish swords....the one on the 'moons' remains as separate as per originally intended.

Indeed, this forum is intended to field discussions on European arms and armour, however on occasional the ethnographic field can of course become somewhat entwined due to colonial and trade circumstances. In my opinion discussions should not be so fragile as not to allow a sometimes broader spectrum of subject matter to be introduced as required. I do agree that these topics should remain incidental and not take over the original subject of discussion, as became the case with the moons and kaskara blade.

I sincerely apologize to you and the forum for this unintended interruption on this valuable thread, and hope we might continue this outstanding review of these most important Scottish swords......and their blades, together:)

The posts from the 'other' thread are joined here as posts #94 and #95.

Thank you again Cathy for this thread, and for your understanding.

All very best regards,
Jim

[S.Workman]

Well, I am an amateur on these swords and know little technically about them but they are some beautiful blades. That's pretty much the sum of my "input".

[Jim McDougall]

Well, I am an amateur on these swords and know little technically about them but they are some beautiful blades. That's pretty much the sum of my "input".

The whole idea here is to learn from these weapons, which we are all doing together, so no such thing as an amateur....especially when one has the courage to step forward and make an entry regardless of status.
Thank you so much!

Very much agreed, the blades are intriguing, and offer us much toward learning more on the history of each sword as a whole.

On that note, I would ask more on a question Cathey directed to Eljay (post #89) concerning the Samuel Harvey mark often seen on British dragoon blades, in many cases initials SH in the running wolf.
It seems that at some point the 'S' was dropped and the 'H' stood alone on the 'wolf' (fox as termed in England).


I tried to find what I could on the Birmingham swordsmith Samuel Harvey, which apparently was the name of Samuel Sr. (b.1698) ; junior, and his son the third. Senior died in 1778; junior in 1795 and grandson in 1810.
Since all three had the same name , that would not be the cause of the omission of the S.

It would seem that there were a number of variations in marks, in that a slotted hilt (c.1780) had a crown over H/vey....some were marked S.Harvey with no fox.....some cavalry blades were inscribed Harvey and one example (I think in Neumann) has a fox with only the H, dating from 1750-68.

Does anyone have more data on variations of Harvey stamps?
While on many types of swords, some of the British dragoon basket hilts had Harvey blades......any examples?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The whole idea here is to learn from these weapons, which we are all doing together, so no such thing as an amateur....especially when one has the courage to step forward and make an entry regardless of status.
Thank you so much!

Very much agreed, the blades are intriguing, and offer us much toward learning more on the history of each sword as a whole.

On that note, I would ask more on a question Cathey directed to Eljay (post #89) concerning the Samuel Harvey mark often seen on British dragoon blades, in many cases initials SH in the running wolf.
It seems that at some point the 'S' was dropped and the 'H' stood alone on the 'wolf' (fox as termed in England).


I tried to find what I could on the Birmingham swordsmith Samuel Harvey, which apparently was the name of Samuel Sr. (b.1698) ; junior, and his son the third. Senior died in 1778; junior in 1795 and grandson in 1810.
Since all three had the same name , that would not be the cause of the omission of the S.

It would seem that there were a number of variations in marks, in that a slotted hilt (c.1780) had a crown over H/vey....some were marked S.Harvey with no fox.....some cavalry blades were inscribed Harvey and one example (I think in Neumann) has a fox with only the H, dating from 1750-68.

Does anyone have more data on variations of Harvey stamps?
While on many types of swords, some of the British dragoon basket hilts had Harvey blades......any examples?


Salaams Jim, Yes!!....Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453&highlight=blade+marks at #196 :)

There is another with just an H inside the Running Fox at#15 ON http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?86414-Samuel-Harvey-question-(British-sword-maker)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Salaams Jim, Yes!!....Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453&highlight=blade+marks at #196 :)

There is another with just an H inside the Running Fox at#15 ON http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?86414-Samuel-Harvey-question-(British-sword-maker)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Thanks so much Ibrahiim, and I was going through old notes last night and found some discussions in which Eljay was indeed included and my notes from 2008. Apparantly there were notable variations in the stamps and inscriptions used by Samuel Harvey Sr,; Junior, and grandson the third. Many had the name or initial and no fox, but the fox with SH was well known, in c.1750. The fox with simple 'H' seems an anomaly as the number of them seems limited.
In my thinking, various means of marking and signing blades was not necessarily a chronological development, so trying to establish a date period with a mark probably not that reliable. I know that is the case with the running wolf marks of Passau/ Solingen contrary to the Wagner plate showing examples with period. These were pretty much free form and varied widely in any time of application.

PS thanks for the link to that thread.....the good ole days! :)

[Cathey]

Hi Guys,

When it comes to blade marks this sword has a huge variety of them.

Date Circa 1610-40
Overall Length 39 ¾” 111cm
Blade length 34 1/8” 86.7 cm
Blade widest point 1 1/8” 2.8 cm
Hilt widest point 4 ½” 11.6 cm
Inside grip length 3 ¼” 8.2 cm
Marks, etc. running wolf mark, Orb and Cross, Early Anchor mark

Description
English basket hilt sword of early form, approx. 102cm overall length with approx. 86cm straight backsword blade. Wire bound fish skin grip, steel guard of early type with the unusual feature of a loop for a sword knot in the Spherical pommel. The single edged blade with a single broad fuller in inlaid in pattern with the running wolf mark, Orb and Cross, Early Anchor mark and what appears to be a cross and circle near the hilt.

General Remarks
Complex Anchor Mark looks like that of Johannes Stam Circa 1612 Germania

References:
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS Pp65
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS. Pp67
MOWBRAY, Stuart C BRITISH MILITARY SWORDS VOLUME ONE 1600-1660 The English Civil Wars and the Birth of the British Standing Army Pp122

OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR
“by the last years of the sixteenth century, these basket hilts had begun to become associated with the Highland Scots and the Irish. This was probably because many of the Highland Chiefs had holdings in Ulster, and in the Irish wars of Queen Elizabeth’s time there were many Highland mercenaries in Ireland. Whatever the reason, these hilts became known as ‘Irish hilts’ in the early years of the seventeenth century.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ... Just bring on the pictures I was talking about....Highlander Mercs at Stettin with the Swedish Army in 1630, A skit by the English at the time of the Jacobite Rebellion, Sword Styles on a Kelso Abbey Charter 12thC? ...which by accident triggers the question when did the Basket Hilt and Sword appear in Scottish hands? It is interesting that the sketch at Stettin shows no basket swords and I attach the other two pictures since the weapons shown are of that period and for interest....and comment.

My suggestion is that as the Highlanders were referred to as Irishmen that the term migrated later when referring to the Irish Basket Hilt when in fact there was no such thing. As a general pointer I tend to agree with the Gaalic connection but I doubt if there was ever an Inniskillin Irish Sword as such. I suppose that there could have been the odd one off item but insofar as a mass bulk store of Irish Basket Hilts ...no I don't think so.

Regarding the S and what initially appear as Fleur De Lys shapes on Baskets ...this is also not as I first thought since it is clear from references like MAZANSKY that the S shape was purely coincidental and stood for no word such as Scotland or Stirling but was a very effective blocking shape easily arrived at on the nose of the anvil...The Fleur de Lys having nothing to do with the romantic idea of that design linking it to France (rather unfortunately in my opinion) but simply to bull horns.

An excellent idea to keep it all together here as one big thread and Cathey has reminded me with her excellent opener at #1 that would it be possible to have all/most of the main Bibliography references at the front end automatically attached ?...Assuming that there is a program that will do that...and as a humble request to the Forum electronic Wizards...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All...As a footnote to the above post please note that in the 30 years war in which Stettin was won by the Swedish Empire; Solingen was under extreme pressure and the net result (including the destruction of the city) insofar as sword transmission was the migration to Shotley Bridge of some of the great Sword Makers of Solingen..

It may not be against the laws of possibility that German Swords were taken back to Scotland by the Mercenaries at Stettin. Not with standing the considerable effect of the Sinclair situation..and that of the Walloon Sword and its influence please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket-hilted_sword not to mention Andrew Ferrera ...:shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent posts Ibrahiim, and thank you for the great illustrations on some of the circumstances which were likely the source for the development of the basket hilt sword in Scotland. Indeed these North European short, heavy sabres many of which were 'dusagge' form had distinctively notable enclosed guards compellingly of such form. As always, the issue is often debated however these origins are most generally held.

Good points on the hilt elements which look like fluer de lis, but as noted by Mazansky, these are in his view actually representations of a rams head. In the case of the 'S' shaped element in hilt construction, I'm not sure if Mazansky made the distinction noting the significance of the 'S' (as possibly to Sterling; Scotland or such key words) but I know it has been noted in many cases with other authors on Scottish arms.

The Solingen phenomenon is probably one of the foremost subtopics in the study of European swords, naturally blades, and indeed this industrial 'machine' became dominant in their production. While the Hounslow and Shotley Bridge situations were indeed key in English swords from mid 17th into early 18th century, the emigration of Solingen makers was also well known into the Netherlands, France, Russia and of course Spain.

In the study of Scottish basket hilted swords, the fact that their blades are invariably of German production, or in some cases appearing to be so, these are the kinds of investigations which help us understand better the dynamics of these most important weapons.

The beginning of this thread by Cathey was remarkably well placed and offered great opportunities to see excellent examples of these swords from her own collection as well as other important holdings. While the unfortunate disruption may have discouraged her continued participation here, which I hope is not the case, I do hope we can continue gainful discussion to learn more on these weapons.

[Cathey]

Scottish Blade with numerous armourers marks!

Hi Jim, did you miss the sword I just posted #106. I put this up deliberately for those that get excited about sword blades and armourers marks as this one is covered in them. The last one I am still yet to identify.

The Irish sword comment is clearly explained by:

OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR
“by the last years of the sixteenth century, these basket hilts had begun to become associated with the Highland Scots and the Irish. This was probably because many of the Highland Chiefs had holdings in Ulster, and in the Irish wars of Queen Elizabeth’s time there were many Highland mercenaries in Ireland. Whatever the reason, these hilts became known as ‘Irish hilts’ in the early years of the seventeenth century.”

Surely someone there has a comment on the last marking I posted; I will repost all of the pictures now.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[E.B. Erickson]

This is a follow up post to the German basket from the last half of the 1500s that I submitted earlier. Most of these basket types that I've seen have a conical pommel, but here's one with a round pommel. The sword was/is in the Higgins Armoury collection, and there doesn't appear to be any info online; just these two photos. The description listed the sword as a baskethilted rapier.

--ElJay

[fernando]

A fellow collector has this one, with a brass hilt.
The pictures are very bad but, if i recall the last time i handled it, it has the inscription Andrea Ferara interspersed with Kings heads.
Do you Gentlemen think this is a genuine period example ?

.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Excellent posts Ibrahiim, and thank you for the great illustrations on some of the circumstances which were likely the source for the development of the basket hilt sword in Scotland. Indeed these North European short, heavy sabres many of which were 'dusagge' form had distinctively notable enclosed guards compellingly of such form. As always, the issue is often debated however these origins are most generally held.

Good points on the hilt elements which look like fluer de lis, but as noted by Mazansky, these are in his view actually representations of a rams head. In the case of the 'S' shaped element in hilt construction, I'm not sure if Mazansky made the distinction noting the significance of the 'S' (as possibly to Sterling; Scotland or such key words) but I know it has been noted in many cases with other authors on Scottish arms.

The Solingen phenomenon is probably one of the foremost subtopics in the study of European swords, naturally blades, and indeed this industrial 'machine' became dominant in their production. While the Hounslow and Shotley Bridge situations were indeed key in English swords from mid 17th into early 18th century, the emigration of Solingen makers was also well known into the Netherlands, France, Russia and of course Spain.

In the study of Scottish basket hilted swords, the fact that their blades are invariably of German production, or in some cases appearing to be so, these are the kinds of investigations which help us understand better the dynamics of these most important weapons.

The beginning of this thread by Cathey was remarkably well placed and offered great opportunities to see excellent examples of these swords from her own collection as well as other important holdings. While the unfortunate disruption may have discouraged her continued participation here, which I hope is not the case, I do hope we can continue gainful discussion to learn more on these weapons.

Salaams Jim, I honestly cant remember where I picked up the Mazansky detail...but thanks for the correction...

Salaams Cathey, I can probably assure you that everyone is burrowing into their research notes trying to pull the answer to the blade marks you have published but as I see it...the running Passau Wolf is so similar to about 4 different styles although the closest is possibly the 1597 Peter Munsten at#225 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453&highlight=blade+marks which I use as the main library thread for all of my references here.

In reference to orbs...#226 shows Johannes Wundes and explains how the Imperial Orb was used in front and after names or slogans and not as a blade mark per se..

I saw some excellent detail on other marks/Passau wolves at #38 and #66 and #44. and when the time comes to discus moon strikes how many sword makers were using the moon; proving that at least it was very commonly used and not the domain of any particular blade maker...and if I can reinforce the idea that the thread is superb and sits stronger together so discussion on blade and hilt may be considered...

With reference to the question Irish Hilts I started looking for Irish Hilt manufacturing centres and other than small producers of specialized natures like the Dublin family firm of Read and Co...nothing pops up whereas commaon sense indicates that British Regiments likely furnished from England..and probably Scotland. The linkage to Highland Mercenaries is a sidebranch stumbled on by pure accident and whilst it possibly changes nothing it seemed to me an interesting excursion..and led me along the road to Stettin and the 30 years war...vital ingredients to any study of this famous sword...and I had no idea they put Sinclairs stuff in a museum close to where he fell..in Norway at Gudbransdalen...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :)

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Cathey!!
Thank you so much! It is great to continue examining these fascinating examples of these wonderful swords, and the secrets they hold .
As one of those who is hopelessly obsessed with blades and markings:) your example in #106 is definitely an exciting array of these. The brass inlay (latten) is a distinct indicator of earlier (17th c. or earlier) blade markings and of course in the group is the 'running wolf'. The other mark is a version of the 'anchor' device popular in Spain an adopted by Solingen makers . It is of course widely speculated as to whether these had distinct meanings or whether simply a favored flourish to enhance inscriptions or motif. As with most blade markings or decoration there is wide variation probably aligned with the artisans used by certain makers and periods.

The other marks are yet undetermined but seem to correspond to other occult/magical or astrological symbols often favored by makers as allusion to imbuement and/or quality in their blades in these times.

Thank you for the additional clarification on the 'Irish' appellation on the hilts. It seems Claude Blair offered a detailed analysis in his work on basket hilts in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications"ed. David Caldwell) as well.

Eljay, thank you for this interesting example. I always wonder as well on the occurrence of these spherical hilts, which often seem entirely incongruent with certain set styles. I once had one of the British dragoon basket hilts (a huge blade of 40") similar to the one Robson suggested to be a M1788 heavy cavalry officers, and instead of the typical urn type pommel it had a distinct sphere.
Since pommels were I believe often piece work obtained by hilt makers at times, I was wondering if perhaps this might have accounted for these kinds of anomalies.

Fernando,
Nice example!! I think it is certainly 18th century and the blade earlier probably. The 'kings head' (konigskopf) was typically associated with the Wundes famiy of Solingen, and its pairing with the ANDREA FERARA name clearly indicates that 'name' as being used as more of a 'brand' in these blades.

[cornelistromp]

Hi Guys,

When it comes to blade marks this sword has a huge variety of them.

Date Circa 1610-40
Overall Length 39 ¾” 111cm
Blade length 34 1/8” 86.7 cm
Blade widest point 1 1/8” 2.8 cm
Hilt widest point 4 ½” 11.6 cm
Inside grip length 3 ¼” 8.2 cm
Marks, etc. running wolf mark, Orb and Cross, Early Anchor mark

Description
English basket hilt sword of early form, approx. 102cm overall length with approx. 86cm straight backsword blade. Wire bound fish skin grip, steel guard of early type with the unusual feature of a loop for a sword knot in the Spherical pommel. The single edged blade with a single broad fuller in inlaid in pattern with the running wolf mark, Orb and Cross, Early Anchor mark and what appears to be a cross and circle near the hilt.

General Remarks
Complex Anchor Mark looks like that of Johannes Stam Circa 1612 Germania

References:
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS Pp65
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS. Pp67
MOWBRAY, Stuart C BRITISH MILITARY SWORDS VOLUME ONE 1600-1660 The English Civil Wars and the Birth of the British Standing Army Pp122

OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR
“by the last years of the sixteenth century, these basket hilts had begun to become associated with the Highland Scots and the Irish. This was probably because many of the Highland Chiefs had holdings in Ulster, and in the Irish wars of Queen Elizabeth’s time there were many Highland mercenaries in Ireland. Whatever the reason, these hilts became known as ‘Irish hilts’ in the early years of the seventeenth century.

Cheers Cathey and Rex


Hi Cathey,

beautiful basket hilt mounted with a beautiful German imported rapier blade.
it's nice to see that rapier blades with a blunt ricasso were also used on basket hilts because it is not possible to bend the index finger around the ricasso due to the basket, so the ricasso has no function here.
This diamond shaped rigid blade is ideal for the thrust.

Anchors are often wrongly perceived as a makersmark, however these anchors are purely decorative and placed for example, at the end of a fuller, or in the middle of a diamond shaped blade.
Attribution to Johannes Stam can not be made merely on basis of a similar anchor and without his other marks the typical IS under a crown.
In Albert Weyersberg Solinger schwertschmiede 1926 ,p 27 is a Solingen blade described with an almost identical in copper inlaid Passau wolf and orband cross .see image
this blade is attributed by Weyersberg to Johannes kirschbaum.

best,
Jasper

[cornelistromp]

This is a follow up post to the German basket from the last half of the 1500s that I submitted earlier. Most of these basket types that I've seen have a conical pommel, but here's one with a round pommel. The sword was/is in the Higgins Armoury collection, and there doesn't appear to be any info online; just these two photos. The description listed the sword as a baskethilted rapier.

--ElJay

it is Higgins (old) inv nr 1979.04.06

[Cathey]

Hi Jasper

Great to see you join the thread, I am always thrilled to see your early swords. Sorry to disappoint you on this one though, I wish it was a rapier blade; the photograph must be misleading as it is a fairly typical back sword blade. With regard to the attribution to Johannes Stam I was going by LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS Pp65, as he pictures the exact same anchor mark which is quite elaborate. However, you are correct this alone is not positive proof of the maker.

I don’t have Albert Weyersberg Solinger schwertschmiede 1926, I do have a publication Geschickte der Klingenindustrie Solingens von Rud Cronau 1885. Sadly for me this publication is in German, however I should persevere as it does cover a range of early marks. Interestingly the one mark it does not include is any version is the Anchor mark. Tell me is Solinger schwertschmiede worth tracking down, I think Amazon have a reprint available, how many pages are there etc.

The mark I would really like to get some idea of if the one attached. Unfortunately this is as clear a picture as we have been able to get and the mark is quite hard to make out. My best guess at this point is a circle on top of a cross, possible just another orb and cross mark.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[cornelistromp]

Hi Cathey,


re: rapier blade
I am definitely not disappointed that it is a backword blade, it is beautiful and also it is more useful here in this basket hilt.
Actually it was the long ricasso that was remarkable for me in a basket hilt, but I have no doubt that this is the original blade.

re: Zygmunt S. Lenkiewicz. 1000marks
This book is like Wikipedia, a collection of marks from various old and new literature. it does not indicate which weapon has the marks and copies blindly faulty assumptions out of other literature.
see illustration p65, the anchor matches but the personal marks of Johannes Stam are missing on your blade, and as is generally believed, the anchor is only a decoration and not a trademark.
In this instance, only the anchor gives too little support to ascribe the blade to Johannes Stam.
It also not clear where the 1612 comes from, according weyersberg Johannes Stam is registered in 1640 as a swordsmith.

Re: Solinger Schwertschiede des 16 und 17 Jahrhunderts und Ihre Erzeugnisse by Weyersberg.
it is a "must have", there are 100pages of the leading sword smiths in Solingen from the 16th and 17th centuries with their different marks.
there is a reprint made in 2012 by Ken Trotman publishing, around Euro20,-



the mark on your blade, the orb on the ricasso, I have seen before.
I hope I will find it again.


best,
Jasper

[E.B. Erickson]

Hello Fernando,
Regarding the brass basket posted above, I think that it's OK. Somewhere I've seen something similar (but I can't remember where!), but I don't think that it's a product of the British Isles. The pommel shape and grip treatment seem to echo continental Europe. Perhaps another example of a French basket?

The blade is for sure a good one, and that type with the king's head stamps interspersed with Andrea Ferara is usually found on swords of the first half of the 1700s.

The only thing that has me wondering is what that cast brass scroll ended thing at the shoulder of the blade is? It doesn't look original, how it's fastened to the hilt is a puzzle, and the brass isn't the same color as the rest of the hilt.

--ElJay

[E.B. Erickson]

Wait a minute! That cast brass thing is a wall mount for suspending a sword. No wonder I couldn't figure out how it attached to the hilt!! The white background threw me - I didn't realize that it was a wall.

--ElJay

[fernando]

Thanks a lot for your comments --ElJay
Yes, i knew that suspension device would be tricky to the eye; but the photographer is not so brilliant and i don't have the means to erase that thing.
I was interested in learning something about this sword as i feel attracted to it, often thinking of trying to buy it from my fellow collector.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All,

If the Mary Rose sank in 1545 what is the situation regarding the basket hilt which was brought up from the wreckage ...Does it mean that the Basket Hilt is English? ....as pointed out on http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/6917780.stmb

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi]Salaams All,

If the Mary Rose sank in 1545 what is the situation regarding the basket hilt which was brought up from the wreckage ...Does it mean that the Basket Hilt is English? ....as pointed out on http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/6917780.stmb

Regards,
Ibrahiim







Well placed note Ibrahiim , and indeed the basket hilt found on this ship, Henry VIII's pride and joy the "Mary Rose", which sank July 19,1545, does set distinct provenance for these in use in England at that time. The other instance would be the example lost on the 'Sea Venture' off the coast of Bermuda in July, 1609, and is well discussed by Dr. Mazansky in his article published in 1995.

Claude Blair in his "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" ( in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications", ed. David Caldwell, 1981)..notes that while the basket guard was certainly in use in Scotland by c.1570s at latest (p.188), there is little corroborative evidence prior to c.1617. He concedes that it remains uncertain whether these complex type hilts evolved in England or Scotland, however he states that in 17th century England, the hilts were typically thought to be 'Highland' in origin.

The excellent reference to the connection to the Norwegian 'Sinclair' sabre with basket hilt is also key. Blair (op.cit.p.190) references the ill fated expedition of Scottish mercenaries who were annihilated at Kringelen in Norway Aug. 26, 1612, and the curious misnomer to the term 'Sinclair' used for these sabres. Apparently Sinclair, was actually a Captain and not in command of the unit, it was actually Lt. Col. Alexander Ramsey.

It seems in other references the use of the Sinclair name was more to politicize the tragic event, and Sinclair was notably connected to an important Scottish clan. Holger Jacobsen (1934) noted there was no indication that these basket hilt sabres were specifically connected to this unit, in fact these were mostly German and Austrian swords on hand for local militias in Norway.

Returning to Blair, on p.186 he notes that the closed hilt or basket guard seemed to have already been in use in England by the 1560s, and the complex nature of the form suggested it had likely been in use there for some time.

It would seem the Mary Rose example well supports this with its established date of 1545, would predate the earliest mention of the 'Highland hilt' in the Inverness Burgh Records (1576) noted by Blair (p.156).
On p.153, Blair cites Holger Jacobsen (1940) who discussed the notable similarity between the construction of the Scottish basket hilt and the late 16th century German sabres with such hilts, proposed by Whitelaw as early as 1902. Jacobsen however included that he felt the hilts were probably of English origin.

To me the ancestry or origin of these famed Scottish basket hilts is not nearly as important as how monumentally distinct and admired they became historically in the hands of the Scottish warriors. Still, these perspectives on their probable evolution remain notably pertinent in comprehensive study of the form.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi]Salaams All,

If the Mary Rose sank in 1545 what is the situation regarding the basket hilt which was brought up from the wreckage ...Does it mean that the Basket Hilt is English? ....as pointed out on http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/6917780.stmb

Regards,
Ibrahiim







Well placed note Ibrahiim , and indeed the basket hilt found on this ship, Henry VIII's pride and joy the "Mary Rose", which sank July 19,1545, does set distinct provenance for these in use in England at that time. The other instance would be the example lost on the 'Sea Venture' off the coast of Bermuda in July, 1609, and is well discussed by Dr. Mazansky in his article published in 1995.

Claude Blair in his "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" ( in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications", ed. David Caldwell, 1981)..notes that while the basket guard was certainly in use in Scotland by c.1570s at latest (p.188), there is little corroborative evidence prior to c.1617. He concedes that it remains uncertain whether these complex type hilts evolved in England or Scotland, however he states that in 17th century England, the hilts were typically thought to be 'Highland' in origin.

The excellent reference to the connection to the Norwegian 'Sinclair' sabre with basket hilt is also key. Blair (op.cit.p.190) references the ill fated expedition of Scottish mercenaries who were annihilated at Kringelen in Norway Aug. 26, 1612, and the curious misnomer to the term 'Sinclair' used for these sabres. Apparently Sinclair, was actually a Captain and not in command of the unit, it was actually Lt. Col. Alexander Ramsey.

It seems in other references the use of the Sinclair name was more to politicize the tragic event, and Sinclair was notably connected to an important Scottish clan. Holger Jacobsen (1934) noted there was no indication that these basket hilt sabres were specifically connected to this unit, in fact these were mostly German and Austrian swords on hand for local militias in Norway.

Returning to Blair, on p.186 he notes that the closed hilt or basket guard seemed to have already been in use in England by the 1560s, and the complex nature of the form suggested it had likely been in use there for some time.

It would seem the Mary Rose example well supports this with its established date of 1545, would predate the earliest mention of the 'Highland hilt' in the Inverness Burgh Records (1576) noted by Blair (p.156).
On p.153, Blair cites Holger Jacobsen (1940) who discussed the notable similarity between the construction of the Scottish basket hilt and the late 16th century German sabres with such hilts, proposed by Whitelaw as early as 1902. Jacobsen however included that he felt the hilts were probably of English origin.

To me the ancestry or origin of these famed Scottish basket hilts is not nearly as important as how monumentally distinct and admired they became historically in the hands of the Scottish warriors. Still, these perspectives on their probable evolution remain notably pertinent in comprehensive study of the form.

Salaams Jim, Thank you for the extensive, time consuming and prompt reply to what seemed a rather throw away question but actually one which had puzzled me completely. I entirely agree with what you have noted and in particular your final paragraph. Although 1545 is a deep dive on the basket hilt it is the other aspects of it which are also very interesting. Thanks again for your answer.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[E.B. Erickson]

I remembered another example of those German baskets with a non-conical pommel.

For a discussion of this sword, and related German baskets (which the owner of the site wants to call Schiavona!), see:
http://fallingangelslosthighways.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-schiavona-circa-1560-once-in-museum.html#!/2014/08/the-schiavona-circa-1560-once-in-museum.html

The site referenced above also has some discussions on Scottish and English baskets, and is pretty good as far as the information on specific swords go.

[Jim McDougall]

I remembered another example of those German baskets with a non-conical pommel.

For a discussion of this sword, and related German baskets (which the owner of the site wants to call Schiavona!), see:
http://fallingangelslosthighways.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-schiavona-circa-1560-once-in-museum.html#!/2014/08/the-schiavona-circa-1560-once-in-museum.html

The site referenced above also has some discussions on Scottish and English baskets, and is pretty good as far as the information on specific swords go.

Thanks very much for the helpful routing and excellent example. It does seem the character of the components and structure resemble those of schiavona, and the pommel recalls German basket types as noted.

While this of course seeks the development of early schiavona perhaps with German influence and through the Hungarian channels......there is always the older ideas of 'schiavona' influence in the Scottish basket hilt.

I always look forward to your views, in addition to the always helpful links and images.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys,

With the mention of the Mary Rose sword I thought I would post the information I have on that sword and the Thames sword, which I don’t think gets as much attention. The earliest sword in my collection dated by the Baron of Earlshall 1550-60, and whilst I have posted this one previously I will re-post as I now have better photos.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Guys,

With the mention of the Mary Rose sword I thought I would post the information I have on that sword and the Thames sword, which I don’t think gets as much attention. The earliest sword in my collection dated by the Baron of Earlshall 1550-60, and whilst I have posted this one previously I will re-post as I now have better photos.

Cheers Cathey and Rex


Salaams Cathey, It must be rather strange since the Basket Hilt is virtually a Scottish Icon and along comes The Mary Rose and a total Eclipse occurs... I suppose the weapon could have joined the ship with its owner from European regions(or even from Scotland!!) ...Well if ..(as they say) ...only they could talk? ! Thank you for the details.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Cathey]

Hi Ibrahiim,

I suspect the Basket hilt in its simplest form did originate in England, although given that mercenary’s etc travelled all over Britain they may well have been in use by the Scott’s and the Irish at the same time. As you say I doubt we will ever truly put the question to bed. The large spiracle pommels often found on these early swords certainly appear to be linked with English manufacture of the time.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Mark Deyer]

Mark, this is an absolutely magnificent example of a mid 18th century British dragoon basket hilt! Welcome to the forum, and thank you so much not only for the grand entrance with this beauty! but for reviving this fascinating old thread.

The late Anthony Darling wrote his venerable article on these, "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword" in 1974 ("Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting" Vol 7, #3) and on p.86 (fig 7 group) is one which is remarkably similar to yours. This is regarded as an Anglo-Irish hilt type with a horizontal bar bisecting the arms of the basket, and these are believed to have been English made. The absence of the looping bars at the base of the basket seem another indicator of this classification.

Dr. Cyril Mazansky , "British Basket Hilted Cavalry Swords" (2005) classifies the pommel type as 'tall bun' (type IID) and on p75, the group of hilts in F1 seem to follow closely the basic design. These are again English dragoon hilts.

Darling (op.cit.) notes that while many of these dragon hilts were made in London and Birmingham, some were also produced in Glasgow and Stirling, which were garrison towns. The ring around the base of the pommel seems to suggest mid 18th around 1750s, and most examples of this period have this feature. It is noted that the British dragoon hilts were quite sturdier than the Scottish hilts, and of course plain without piercings and other motif.

I am not sure on the '45' which seems scratched into the scabbard throat. It does not seem to correspond to regimental numerals often seen (i.e. 42 was the Black Watch, 42nd Foot). Darling indicates this particular type hilt as seen on yours is in his opinion one the finest forms of these dragoon hilts, and these were apparently associated with the 6th Inniskillings (Heavy dragoons).

May we know more on the blade, length, any markings please . How is the 1731 date attributed?

Fantastic piece!!!!


All best regards,
Jim
Hi,
Sorry for the very late reply to your request but here are some more photos and info.
Blade length is 33.5 inch
Hilt 5.75x5.75x4.75 inch
hope you can see in the photos the numbers 1731 the 3 could in fact be a 5? could this date defiantly link it to the 6th Inniskillings? also there appears to be a small armourers mark as well as the punched dots ,then there's the 60 on the pommel , the sword is totally original the blade,grip , hilt and scabbard have obviously always been together. no markings on the blade.

[Mark Deyer]

Here are some more image s

[Mark Deyer]

Hi,
Some more. the apparent indent in the blade is the white sheet overlapping the blade not a wornpiece/missing part.
Mark

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for posting this great example again. In the spirit of those here who enjoy observing various aspects of these examples and viewing these as 'clues' as to the possible 'history' they may hold, I wanted to add some thoughts.

As discussed, the hilt of this sword is 'of the type' referred to in fig. 7 of A,Darling (1974, p.86) considered a 'half basket' and indeed it is noted the form is commonly associated with the 'Inniskilling dragoons'.

What is most interesting here are the English style 'bun' pommel, which also seems consistent with English dragoon hilts mid 18th, while in place of the downturned quillon seen on some of these...the guard has a widened turned down extension which resembles those seen on earlier Scottish basket hilts (beginning of 18th, per Whitelaw).

Though these hilts are often associated with the Inniskillings, it is not clear at which period this might have been, nor that this was a hard and fast association. Certainly these swords did not follow 'patterns' in these times.
It might be argued however, that if the crudely inscribed numbers on the hilt were indeed '1751' rather than 1731.....that date is significant because in that year , 1751, the regiment was 'officially' designated 'Inniskillings'.
Prior to that they were known as Cunninghams Dragoons or 'Black Dragoons' etc.
It would be of course tenuous to suggest that this date would be inscribed in this manner, but it is worthy of note.
Naturally the 60 may have any numbers of purposes, most obvious an inventory or rack related number.

On the guard, the curious punctions as dots in linear fashion to me recall the 'paternosters' seen occasionally on swords of earlier times. The other device or mark is unclear but it would interesting to discover its relation to such a religious or talismanic type arrangement. Again, this speculation is simply suggested as a possible solution.

These are just notes I would observe, and hope some out there might find them worthy of discussion.

[E.B. Erickson]

First, glad to see photos of the blade on Mark's sword, even though it negated my prediction that it would have a narrow and wide fuller!

Second, please see the attached photos.This went through eBay several years ago, and was advertised as being a Dutch baskethilt. Can any of you that have access to European museums verify this? The pommel does not appear to be original. The photos of a page from a book were included as aprt of the auction description.

[cornelistromp]

yes I can confirm in all probability a possible Dutch origin for those basket hilted swords.
I have sold this sword from my collection through eBay, the sword came from the Henk Visser collection, a well known collector of Dutch arms. btw the pommel is fine.


the hilt of the Pictures page (Dutch swords) posted at eBay are all found in Dutch soil.
they may of course have been coming from Germany but it is also quite possible that they are (partly) made in Netherlands.if I remember correctly, there was a sword in the Visser collection with the same basket hilt as #51 #52(+ Higgins) with a Dutch name on the blade "Hans Adam" published by JP Puype in the Visser collection.

I have had some discussions with the writer of the above Book, Dutch weapon specialist, arms and armour writer/authority and former curator of different Museums JP Puype about the possible Dutch origin of those basket hilts.

see also the DUTCH basket hilts post #3 #4 #24 with the same basket in.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18811
best,

[Cathey]

Thank you Mark for re-posting your sword, the variety of markings is most interesting. I have never seen punch marks like this before. I do have a sword where previous engraving has been obscured by punch marks, but nothing quite like this.

The sword I refer to is:
Brass hilted Highland Officer’s Basket Hilt
Date: Pattern 1798
Nationality: British – Scottish Regiment
Overall Length: 94.8 cm (37.3 inches)
Blade length: 80.6 cm (31.7 inches)
Blade widest point: 2.985 cm (1.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13.4 cm (5.3 inches)
Inside grip length: 10.3 cm (4.1 inches)
Marks, etc: Marked with a crown GR DRURY, stamped near the hilt are the letters EC with 6 small stars. The stars appear to have been applied to strike out other letters. These letters look like R.I.I.J.I.R?

Description
1798 Pattern Highland infantry officer's backsword; the type carried by Scottish infantry regiments during the Peninsula War and Battle of Waterloo against Napoleon's forces. The single fullered blade is marked with a crown GR DRURY, stamped near the hilt are the letters EC with 6 small stars. The hilt is brass hilt is constructed of solid plain panels and has remnants of past gilding. The grip is fish skin with brass wire.

General Remarks
The 1798 Pattern was the first attempt by the British to standardize sword patterns for the Scottish regiments and was very loose in some respects, with blades coming from Solingen (Prussia / Germany), England and Scotland, clearly with officers mounting the blades from their existing pre-pattern swords. The brass hilt is fundamentally weaker than steel hilts, hence the pattern is rare as the hilts suffered terribly over time.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Cathey]

Hi Eljay and Cornelistromp

These Dutch baskets are so intricate in design, I had no idea such variety existed and can honestly say I have never had the pleasure of seeing one in the flesh. Any idea what the name of the book is, the pictures in it look like a valuable reference source.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[E.B. Erickson]

Corneliustromp,
Thanks for the discussion and additional photos of the Dutch basket. Would I be correct in assuming that these are a fairly rare sword?

--ElJay

[E.B. Erickson]

Cathey,
On your 1798 basket, can you make out the letters that have been punched over?

[Cathey]

Hi Eljay

We am sitting in a apartment in Melbourne having just come back from an auction much poorer than when we arrived. Picked up a nice basket hilt which I will post latter.

Now I can't make out the punch marks but have attached some close up pictures. When I get back to Adelaide I will get out a magnifying glass and see if I can make them out.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

yes I can confirm in all probability a possible Dutch origin for those basket hilted swords.
I have sold this sword from my collection through eBay, the sword came from the Henk Visser collection, a well known collector of Dutch arms. btw the pommel is fine.


the hilt of the Pictures page (Dutch swords) posted at eBay are all found in Dutch soil.
they may of course have been coming from Germany but it is also quite possible that they are (partly) made in Netherlands.if I remember correctly, there was a sword in the Visser collection with the same basket hilt as #51 #52(+ Higgins) with a Dutch name on the blade "Hans Adam" published by JP Puype in the Visser collection.

I have had some discussions with the writer of the above Book, Dutch weapon specialist, arms and armour writer/authority and former curator of different Museums JP Puype about the possible Dutch origin of those basket hilts.

see also the DUTCH basket hilts post #3 #4 #24 with the same basket in.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18811
best,



Salaams Cornelistromp, Great illustrations and what a learning curve this subject is... However...I understand that the Fleur de Lys shape ~on the basket, is in fact, a set of horns... and was associated with the Scottish style. How then is it Dutch? Though of course your note about it being partly Dutch is understood... Perhaps the horns were added in Scotland?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

[Jim McDougall]

Fascinating brass basket hilt! The blade (as always) is intriguing, especially being a 'Drury' blade. Apparently Drury in 1771 joined in business with Nathaniel Jeffries, and these two men were both producers of blades found on British military swords in this time. Jeffries was succeeded by Drury by 1772, and the Drury blades are the most commonly seen of the two as I understand.

By 1777, Drury was bankrupt but continued in business and supplying until 1786 (he died in 1804). According to Darling ("Swords for the Highland Regiments 1757-1784", 1988, p.17) he was supplying until 1784, as noted 'the year privates in Highland regiments ceased wearing swords'.

As Darling notes on p.18 (op.cit.) "...to whom were these Drury signed swords issued? Between 1775 and 1779 eight Highland regiments, one of two battalions, were raised, one of which, the Royal Highland Emigrants, was levied in Canada".

Is it possible that these curious markings at the forte near blade back might have something to do with such issuance? perhaps 'E C' might represent Emigrants Canada? with the obscured word unclear (this seems unusual to see anything stamped in this location on blade....obviously the maker was Drury).

Whatever the case, these basket hilts seem to have been of steel, while later hilts (c.1790s) for Scottish units were often gilt brass (copper). The configuration of plates and bars in the guard correspond to cavalry hilts c.1750 in form (obviously steel, Mazansky, 2005, p.141) but are seen in similar examples in the same reference (p.130-132) which are brass with some having similar pommel (type IV, Mazansky) a low cone with cross strap design.

The 1798 pattern seems unclear (Robson, p.124, "Swords of the British Army", 1975), but he notes compelling references suggesting they were indeed brass. Most of the examples in Mazansky seem to be to grenadier or fusilier units of Scottish regiments, with the components very similar.

Could this earlier blade have been joined with one of the brass hilts in refurbishing for Napoleonic campaigns? If the Highland unit of 'Emigrant Canada' was levied there, it obviously was not stationed there. Still, would the arms issued be somehow kept separately accountable in inventory context?

This is one of the great fascinations of studying these swords...what stories of their working lives can be revealed as we look into the clues?

[cornelistromp]

Salaams Cornelistromp, Great illustrations and what a learning curve this subject is... However...I understand that the Fleur de Lys shape ~on the basket, is in fact, a set of horns... and was associated with the Scottish style. How then is it Dutch? Though of course your note about it being partly Dutch is understood... Perhaps the horns were added in Scotland?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

salaams Ibrahiim,

I have absolutely no idea what you mean :confused:
This type of baskethilt is Dutch or German, certainly not scottish.
also the fleur de lis is not retrofitted in Scotland.
with partly Dutch I mean, the hilt can be Dutch, and the blade can be German and vice versa!

F/m a filling of a fleur de lis in the inner and outer guard appeared frequently in the second half of the 16th century in western Europe.
attached a twohanded sword of Standler 1580 and a German guard auctioned at Thomas del mar last year.
best,


‡ A GERMAN TWO HAND PROCESSIONAL SWORD HILT, LAST QUARTER OF THE 16TH CENTURY
of flattened iron bars, formed of a pair of quillons with bud-shaped finials, and a tightly curled lug above and below, an additional pair of basal lugs, and inner and outer guard each filled with a fleur-de-lys
42.5 cm; 16 ¾ in wide

Provenance
The armoury of His Imperial Highness, Archduke Eugen, Veste Hohenwerfen, Salzburg, sold Anderson Galleries, New York, 4 March 1927, lot 855, $12.50

JWHA Inv. No. 177
Estimate: 400-600

[Jim McDougall]

I think the reference to the similarity between these volute scrolls in the lower guard of the Dutch hilt and many of the devices between guard plates in the Scottish basket hilts was in accord with comparing possible influences.

Much of the discussion on Scottish basket hilts and their origins and development has always been focused on such comparisons from the early arms writers into present, and the basis for considerable debate. These kinds of questions are much in line with the type of analysis attended to in the excellent work by the late Claude Blair.

Quite honestly, some years ago I had seen the integral 'fluer de lis' elements in these hilts and assumed possible connections to France considering the strong connections between the Stuarts and them.
When the Dr. Mazansky presented his book I was surprised to see these elements actually representing 'rams horns', which I would presume possibly could derive from early Celtic symbolism.

On the other hand, and as has been often maintained, many of the elements may have likely and simply been aesthetic designs which lent well to the basic structure of the closed basket guard. While this is often hard to fathom given the profound symbolism often imbued covertly into sword decoration by the Highland Scots, it remains a distinctly probable circumstance.

Naturally, and has been well shown in the illustrations of other volute scrolls inherent in many Continental hilt forms, these devices have been around since virtually ancient times in art and material culture of many civilizations as they migrated and these diffused widely. If I recall correctly, these volute designs are even seen in remnants of prehistoric cultures.

Returning to the influences of hilt forms between countries, it does seem there were notable connections between Holland and England with sword fashion and elements in the 17th and 18th centuries. This is represented somewhat in "The Smallsword in England" (Aylward, 1945) who includes a number of Dutch examples (a few French as well) and once again recalling the philosophical comment which emphasizes that the styles and forms of weaponry never have geographic boundaries.

[Cathey]

Here is another basket a bit of a hybrid between the early patterns and the emergence of pieced hearts’.

Scottish Basket Hilt
Nationality Scottish
Date C1680-1700
Overall Length 38 5/8” 98.1 cm
Blade length 34 1/8” 96.5 cm
Blade widest point 1 ½” 3.7 cm
Hilt widest point 4 3/8” 11.1 cm
Inside grip length 3 ½” 9 cm
Marks, etc. Appears to be 16th – 17th Century version of Passau Wolf Mark.

Description
Early Scottish Basket Hilt c1680
Stag horn grip, Low domed pommel, crude single heart shaped piercing to Outer shields and knuckle guards. Remnants of line decoration to outer shields. Crude terminal lobe to side guard’s un-pierced, forward guards but no wrist guard present. Broad sword blade with two short fullers at shoulder and early version of running wolf mark.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

salaams Ibrahiim,

I have absolutely no idea what you mean :confused:
This type of baskethilt is Dutch or German, certainly not scottish.
also the fleur de lis is not retrofitted in Scotland.
with partly Dutch I mean, the hilt can be Dutch, and the blade can be German and vice versa!

F/m a filling of a fleur de lis in the inner and outer guard appeared frequently in the second half of the 16th century in western Europe.
attached a twohanded sword of Standler 1580 and a German guard auctioned at Thomas del mar last year.
best,


‡ A GERMAN TWO HAND PROCESSIONAL SWORD HILT, LAST QUARTER OF THE 16TH CENTURY
of flattened iron bars, formed of a pair of quillons with bud-shaped finials, and a tightly curled lug above and below, an additional pair of basal lugs, and inner and outer guard each filled with a fleur-de-lys
42.5 cm; 16 ¾ in wide

Provenance
The armoury of His Imperial Highness, Archduke Eugen, Veste Hohenwerfen, Salzburg, sold Anderson Galleries, New York, 4 March 1927, lot 855, $12.50

JWHA Inv. No. 177
Estimate: 400-600




Salaams Cornelistromp ...Thank you for an excellent reply and your illustration of the 2 hander with the horns at the guard. Despite the Mazansky reference I can imagine how this could be misleading and had even thought that the reason for the Bull Horns/ Rams Horns? on the Scottish/English Basket Hilt was tied to the Border Reivers since that is what they were stealing...cows and sheep....but alas that seems not to be the case. Thanks again..

I have just realised that E B Ericson is a leading light on the subject of Basket Hilt Swords and can be seen at My Armoury. com from where, in regard to the Border Reivers above, I Quote."

The Border Reivers, the shock troops of those untamed folk, struck at their neighbors without mercy—murdering them, stealing their stock and burning their homes. They were masters of their custom-bred mounts, traveling light and fast, creating chaos with medieval weapons, and exploiting their intimate knowledge of the land to undermine political authorities and elude the law. They were driven by greed, revenge, hardship and perhaps even bloodlust.

Ironically, in light of our emphasis on the sword, the Borderers themselves chose the lance as their principal weapon. According to one eyewitness, their skill with lance and horse was so great that they could ride into a stream and spear fish from horseback. But nine feet of wood and a foot of steel just don't have the romantic allure of the distinctive Borders basket-hilt.

The debate over the origins of the British and Continental basket-hilt swords continues to rage. Suffice it to say that opinions differ, and the least-strained theory is that the various basket styles of the era evolved more of less independently out of the universal recognition of the value of protecting the sword hand even when not wearing mail or plate gauntlets.

Pointing to lines of trade between Britain and the Continent doesn't answer the question of stylistic origins because ideas likely flowed in both directions. However, it must be noted that British basket-hilts of the type reviewed here look more like the German basket-hilts of the same era than the classic Scottish Highland baskets of later centuries. In both cultures, the bars of these early baskets are narrow and organic in form, often explicitly so, with long, vinelike quillons, and terminals and pommels shaped like leaves, nuts or berries. Perhaps these forms were the cutler's reference to the rustic, utilitarian baskets encountered in everyday life.

Whatever the inspiration, the long, recurved quillons identify the earliest British baskets, dating from approximately 1540 forward. These quillons seem out of place in the kit of the imminently practical Reivers, and in fact many surviving basket-hilts of this era appear to have lost their quillons by accidental or deliberate amputation. The large, hollow, globular pommel also is a distinctive feature of the 16th century British basket-hilt".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all...I place here a good site with an excellent description for beginners like myself which gives a nicely constructed and balanced view of the Basket Hilt swords in general...please see

http://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/scottish-basket-hilt-a-guide-forcollectors-guide/

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[cornelistromp]

I believe the horns did only occur in the imagination of Dr. Mazanski.

yes I also think that the basket hilt has developed separate and away from each other and take into consideration that the European type,the developed Katzbalger with ribbon-basket, began somewhat earlier as the English and Scottish in the second quarter of the 16thC


Of the basket type with the slots in the bars, there are found several pieces in the Netherlands.
some complete as swords and others Only the baskets!!!! so without pommel grip and blade. This may be an indication that this type of basket was manufactured in the Netherlands.

the typical globular hollow pommel with brass bands as seen at early English basket hilts came already as solid execution on German and Swiss swords around 1500.

best
Jasper

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent notes and great to see such good discussion along with such superb examples!
I very much agree on the 'rams horn' appellation applied by Dr, Mazansky, and while an interesting analogy, I have not been able to find other use of the term used on these Scottish basket hilts in nomenclature.

I looked through many references in Celtic and Pictish art and found no specific symbolic note to rams, however they did appear occasionally as a theme in drinking horns, quite appropriately .
The volute or paired discs were in a good number of representations but termed simply 'double discs', so ideas for deeper symbolism seem to have given way to more likely aesthetic instances.

As pointed out these type elements were well known on the Continent and into much earlier material culture, so placing any distinct connection would be unlikely.

So too is the problem of aligning distinct and chronological development of the basket or closed hilt, as fully developed hilt guards were developing in rapiers as well as in various form in the Continent as well as in England concurrently. These developments would seem to be understandable as armour began its obsolescence with advent of firearms, and combat techniques with swords changed.

Cathey, as always, thank you so much for sharing these wonderful examples of basket hilts!!! This thread is entirely addictive! :)

With the most recent one, the intriguing pierced heart motif appears, and I recall years ago trying to determine if any specific symbolism or purpose. I know this topic seems a bit fanciful, but it is believed that the Jacobites did use certain secret symbols in degree. It seems like it was Mazansky who, when asked, scoffed at the idea and claimed this was simply an easy to make style of decoration with two drilled holes and punched lines.

Have you or Rex or perhaps the Baron possibly formed ideas on this particular device in basket hilt motif? I know it was used as well on other material culture ( a Scottish chair I have).

[E.B. Erickson]

Ibrahim,
That's not a statement of mine that you mentioned a few posts up the page, but I don't remember right now who said it! I guess I'll have to head over to MyArmoury and track it down. And anyway, I'm just a collector, and would hardly consider myself a leading light of baskethilt lore.

I am, however, in total agreement with the idea that the various basket types developed independently of each other. This idea was also expressed by Jasper.
One thing that I have been doing the last week or so is developing a visual lineage of the various basket types. I'll post it when I have a rough draft that I'm happy with.

Regarding those baskets with the slotted elements, one turned up in Virginia, apparently from an early colonial site, but unfortunately the site itself and information about it is lost. See the attached photo.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahim,
That's not a statement of mine that you mentioned a few posts up the page, but I don't remember right now who said it! I guess I'll have to head over to MyArmoury and track it down. And anyway, I'm just a collector, and would hardly consider myself a leading light of baskethilt lore.

I am, however, in total agreement with the idea that the various basket types developed independently of each other. This idea was also expressed by Jasper.
One thing that I have been doing the last week or so is developing a visual lineage of the various basket types. I'll post it when I have a rough draft that I'm happy with.

Regarding those baskets with the slotted elements, one turned up in Virginia, apparently from an early colonial site, but unfortunately the site itself and information about it is lost. See the attached photo.

Salaams E.B. Erickson, Please see http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-2310-three-colonial-edged-weapons-excavated-near-jamestown-virginia-44160/ where there are 3 weapons discovered of which your illustration is one. The site is an old auction site 2011 therefor the items were probably sold 4 or 5 years back....

My apologies on the quote which I only meant I had applied from the website which had mentioned your name....rather than you having been the originator of the words I showed...

Excellent news that you are working on the lineage document.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[E.B. Erickson]

Ibrahim,
Yes, that old Julia auction is where I found the sword. The other two items weren't surprising to find in an American colonial context, but that Germanic/Dutch basket was! I guess it shouldn't have been too much of a surprise, because England and Europe had a lot of trade going on in the 1600s (when they weren't fighting each other!).

No need to apologize for the confusion about the quotation. Whoever said that is a much better writer than I am, and I just wanted to make sure that I didn't get the credit.

--ElJay

[ulfberth]

First, glad to see photos of the blade on Mark's sword, even though it negated my prediction that it would have a narrow and wide fuller!

Second, please see the attached photos.This went through eBay several years ago, and was advertised as being a Dutch baskethilt. Can any of you that have access to European museums verify this? The pommel does not appear to be original. The photos of a page from a book were included as aprt of the auction description.

From the National Museum Copenhagen Denmark, Danish, Dutch , north European ?
Kind regards
Ulfberth

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

As I mentioned, Rex and I went to Melbourne for an Arms and Armour Auction last weekend. Apart from a number of nice Georgian swords I had targeted an early Basket hilt which I was fortunate enough to secure. The hilt is reasonably early, probably around 1707, however the blade marked with a Fox with a H over the forelegs is probably latter.

This brings me back to the old question which Harvey used just the H over the forelegs on the familiar fox marking. I have seen plenty with SH for Samuel Harvey and have begun to wonder it the absence of the S represents an earlier Harvey such as Joseph.

Glasgow Scottish Basket Hilted Backsword
Date: Hilt Circa 1707, blade may be latter
Maker/Retailer: Blade made by Harvey
Overall Length: 39 1/4” 99.7 cm fuller 24 3/8” 62 cm
Blade length: 33” 84 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.7 cm
Hilt widest point: 4 ½” 11.2 cm
Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.7 cm
Marks, etc.: Stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs.

Description
Glasgow hilt with Cone shaped Pommel, Shields and Guards have bracket cut with central lobes to the edge, Shield and Guard piercings include darts mounted by two circles, other circles and engraved lines. The two shields are pierced by a central star of four points, surrounded by darts mounted by two circles. There is no wrist guard or horseman’s ring. The grip is wood with brass wire. The backsword blade is stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs.

General Remarks
No Horseman’s ring in the guard

References:
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp102 F5c, 109 F13b, 113 F15

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Another outstanding sword!

Most interesting that the indeed old question of the SH running wolf (fox) on these Harvey blades comes up. This discussion has gone on for many years now, and interesting situation that there were three Samuel Harvey's, senior b. 1698; his son Jr. and grandson III. The grandson died in 1810.

I had actually never heard of a Joseph, so curious as to where he would fall into the range of this dynasty.

It seems there was no particular chronology or documented evidence of these marks used by the Harvey's at a particular time. I recall having one of the horsemans swords with HARVEY in blocks letters across the forte many years ago.
Some blades are marked S HARVEY without the fox; on a slotted guard hilt c. 1780 the blade is stamped H/VEY below a crown.

One of these swords in Neumann (19.S) has a blade c.1750-68 with this same fox and letter H only. This seems the correct period for this blade which as indicated post dates the hilt.

I have always wondered what prompted the Harvey's to adopt the well known 'running wolf' of the expatriate Solingen smiths in England from Hounslow and Shotley Bridge, and when this occurred. It is curious as these were not used exclusively in either of these German 'arrangements', and the use of the mark in Solingen had expired during these times as well.
As far as I know no other English maker ever used the 'fox', and the inclination of its use seems inconsistent with the Harvey's.

It seems Eljay had come up with similar findings some years ago.

[Cathey]

Hi Jim

Actually there are quite a few Harveys, according to my data base as follows:
Harvey, George: 1777 – 1780 21 Park St
Harvey, John: 1630 - 1645
Harvey, John: 1849 – 1854 40 High St, Deritend
Harvey, John: 1855 - Albert Works, Glover St
Harvey, John: 1860 - 27 Adderley St
Harvey, John: 1865 – 1882 123 Steelbouse Lane
Harvey, John: 1883 – 1897 Coleshill St
Harvey, Joseph: 1800 – 1814 16 Upper Priory
Harvey, Joseph: 1815 – 1820 Park St
Harvey, Mary: 1847 - High St, Deritend
Harvey, William: 1816 – 1820 High St

There is even a Mary for a short time. The earliest Harvey appears to be a John Harvey, but as you say I can find no records of when or who used what version of the fox. I guess we will never know unless we can accuratley date some blades, but as Baskets often had there blades updated, this is not much help either.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Cathey, very impressive genealogical grouping, and it of course makes sense that the family would have had other members. I used only Annis & May and Southwick which focus only on the recorded smiths I believe but I don't have them handy to recheck.
It does seem that the others listed here, and were of course smiths, fall outside the scope of the blade form, George was possible I suppose..but John in the 17th c. too early.

With John it is tempting to think that perhaps he had some dealings with the German smiths at Hounslow, and brought the running wolf notion into the family blades but this can only be a most tenuous supposition.

It does remain tempting to think that George might have left out the S, but seems odd as the Samuels were still at it concurrently. As Samuel Jr. died in 1778 during George's time of activity that is tempting thought.

I guess we will have to concede to there being notable variations in the Harvey's marks and rely on blade character for estimates.
It was apparently common for officers in Scottish regiments to use heirloom blades or for that matter hilts at their disgression so these kinds of pairings not unusual.

Wonderful swords!! Keep them coming please!

Best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, I wonder if I can cut across several posts here and introduce the following article on Basket Hilts which as an introduction I Quote" With Open "S" Paneled Guards
Anthony D. Darling
The two swords illustrated and discussed in this
paper are of particular importance to students and
collectors of 18th century British military edged
weapons, primarily those in use prior to the first regulation
patterns of 1788.' One (1 A), having a brass
hilt, is a cavalry sword while the other (IB), with steel
hilt, is the weapon of an infantryman. Contemporary
pictorial evidence indicates that the latter was in use
as early as 1742 and, as the former's guard configuration
resembles its infantry counterpart so closely,
we can safely assume that both swords date from this
period. What is strange is that so fragile a metal as
brass would have been used for the hilt of a mounted
man's sword, his primary weapon, whereas swords
were rarely used by infantry, and, if so, only as a last
resort. In fact, swords were abolished for infantry
privates save for grenadier^,^ Highlanders and drummers
in 176€L3 Records indicate that many infantry
regiments had in fact stopped wearing swords during
the Seven Years' War (1756-1763).4
Infantry Sword
This sword, or "hanger," has a slightly curved,
single-edged 28-inch blade with one narrow fuller.
The blade is stamped with the remains of a "running
fox" mark which may indicate the work of the Birmingham
sword cutler, Samuel Ha r v e y....." Unquote. For the entire document I reccommend http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/B049_Darling.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams....and heres another thing ! I didnt know that Mazanskys work was on the web ..free...and it is essential reading...please see the slightly incomplete but hugely informative work which goes in for Typology of this enormously morphed style of sword...This work certainly helps the reader balance the various weapons. Please see https://books.google.com.om/books?id=x7rcopE_SmgC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=basket+hilt+decoration&source=bl&ots=J0Yhetfk0t&sig=ahe2teyJWbe5wWHtsB2MWlo-dmc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VqhQVZ7iJcPxUPy1gdgJ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=basket%20hilt%20decoration&f=false

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

Just working through what I have and haven’t posted and realised I had not put my favourite up yet, so here goes.

Scottish Basket Hilt by Thomas Gemmill
Date: Circa 1690-1720 (17-18th Century)
Nationality: Scottish (Glasgow)
Overall Length: 93.5 cm (36.8 inches)
Blade length: 79.7 cm (31.4 inches)
Blade widest point: 4.4 cm (1.7 inches)
Marks, etc: Blade marked "Andria Farara" in the centre.

Description
The Iron hilt has a broad flared wrist guard with fluted decoration. The edges of all the broad and narrow guards are cut with pairs of claws with bifurcated ends. The piercing includes hearts made up of three separate holes, a diamond one shaped to fit between the other two which are round. The central piercing on the broad guards is in the form of an X. The grip is stag horn. All other bars are broad and have deep fluted decoration. This is a full basket. The broad sword blade is marked “"Andria Farara" on both sides.

General Remarks
Provenance: sold by Philip Fialides of Impala Antiques to retired Victorian Superintendent of Police Noel Standfield, Noel then sold the sword on to Murray Gray. Noel had done considerable research on this sword and was the first to claim it is an unsigned Gemmill.

Sword has since been confirmed as an unsigned Thomas Gemmill by the Baron of Earlshall who will be featuring this sword in his book.

Thomas Gemmill (Kings Armourer in Glasgow, c. 1718-1737)


Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all...In support of the above post please see https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1899820795

Simply go to the page and select the required Illustration which is also loaded with script details...on page 13 ...Scottish Broadsword with Highland Dirk puts the reader in the middle of Swordmaker style, detail, makers names etc etc...Including some Andrea Ferara details.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

Just looking back at what I have and haven’t posted on this thread already and realised I missed the third of my Spiracle Pommel Swords, so here it is.

Basket Hilted Back Sword (Irish Hilt)
Date: Circa 1615-40
Nationality: British
Overall Length: 108.6 cm 42 ¾”
Blade length: 95.1 cm 37 5/8”
Blade widest point: 2.8 cm 1 1/8”
Hilt widest point: 11.3 cm 4 2/4”
Inside grip length: 8.5 cm 3 3/8”
Marks, etc.: Blade marked to both sides to a German, Solingen Swordsmith, “CLEMENS DINGER”.

With regards to marks, I flipped the picture of the two makes under the hilt upside down and what I first thought looked like some kind of snake now looks more like two swans. Sometimes I think the more you look at sword marks the more confusing they get.

Description
English Basket Hilt circa 1615-40
English basket hilt sword (Irish Hilt) of early form, approx. Staghorn grip (latter replacement), steel guard of early type with the feature of a loop in the nut that attaches the guard to the Spherical pommel. The backsword blade is attributed to Clemens Dingen (II) recorded as working 1630-1710 and marked with CLEMENS DINGER and the Orb and cross on both sides.

References:
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp67
MOWBRAY, Stuart C BRITISH MILITARY SWORDS VOLUME ONE 1600-1660 The English Civil Wars and the Birth of the British Standing Army pp122
OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution pp176-178

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[cornelistromp]

The backsword blade is attributed to Clemens Dingen (II) recorded as working 1630-1710 and marked with CLEMENS DINGER and the Orb and cross on both sides.



WOW, he worked 80 years !

there is a famous Swedish sword known which can be dated to 1627 with a similar standing swan of Clemens Dinger.
I will check it later today.

best,

[cornelistromp]

swan mark and "signature Clemens Deinger" on rapier of Gustav II. Adolf from Sweden carried at battle of Dirschau Poland in 1627.

Clemens Dinger worked for from <1627 to the 1650s, the swan mark (different) was also used by his son Heinrich and used by his grandson Wilhem in 1698 onwards.

[Jim McDougall]

Definitely a very nice blade! Apparently Clemens Dinger (the elder) worked in Solingen 1590-1620 and then listed (according to Bezdek p134) in Toledo from 1620-1677. There is another listed among the numerous members of this family as Clemens Dinger zu Wirsberg 1640-45 (not sure what the 'zu' means).
Whatever the case this blade of course probably aligns with earlier blades by the elder as the 1627 date was set as noted by the battle in Poland that year.

I am curious, in the name stamp, why are the 'N's backward (as in the Cyrillic letter 'I') ? Is this some sort of artistic license or deliberately set trademark? In many cases other letters as in Spanish names, inscriptions have uncharacteristic 'E's and other substitutions in various cases.

The swan stamp apparently survived in non 'Dinger' blades well through the 18th century as found in smallswords among other town marks and hallmarks (Dean, 1929). As always curious on other use of the swan markings.

[Cathey]

Upon cornelistromp advice I purchased copies of Solinger Schwertschmiede Des 16. Und 17. Jahrhundersts Und Ihre Erxeugenisse by ALber Weyersberg and Stephan Kinsman’s European Makers or Edges Weapons, the Marks a Handbook for Museums and Collections. These books arrived the other day and I have found both publications quite useful.

Given the earlier period dating for the sword in question I would attribute the time line to Clemens Dinger worked for from 1627 to the 1650s.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Cathey, interesting references you note that you obtained, can you suggest (via PM) where these might be obtained?

I am inclined to think, according to the referenced data I mentioned, that this blade was probably produced pre-1620, as Clemens Dinger apparently worked 1590-1620 in Germany, then to Toledo. The 1627 date is as I understand a date of provenance with his name rather than a working date reference. The earlier date seems to fit well with what seems a very early English hilt.

Best regards,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

Definitely a very nice blade! Apparently Clemens Dinger (the elder) worked in Solingen 1590-1620 and then listed (according to Bezdek p134) in Toledo from 1620-1677.

if he started working as a sword smith in Solingen at around the age of 20, then he stopped in Toledo at the age of 107! ???
This is obviously not the case.
if you could survive childhood and your teenage years you had a good chance of living to your 50s or your early 60s.

I think there are two Clemens mixed together here.

re Toldedo:
Wendelin Boeheim refers to one Spanish? dated blade of Clemente dinger,
CLEMETE DINGER ESPERADO MI SIGNAL PARAIO 1677,
but questioned whether there really has worked a Dinger in Toledo.
It was fashion to put in Solingen Spanish phrases and Toledo look a like marks in the blades.

I expect the career of clemens Dinger as suggested by Boeheim, before 1627 to mid 50s to be very likely.

best
jasper

[Jim McDougall]

if he started working as a sword smith in Solingen at around the age of 20, then he stopped in Toledo at the age of 107! ???
This is obviously not the case.
if you could survive childhood and your teenage years you had a good chance of living to your 50s or your early 60s.

I think there are two Clemens mixed together here.

re Toldedo:
Wendelin Boeheim refers to one Spanish? dated blade of Clemente dinger,
CLEMETE DINGER ESPERADO MI SIGNAL PARAIO 1677,
but questioned whether there really has worked a Dinger in Toledo.
It was fashion to put in Solingen Spanish phrases and Toledo look a like marks in the blades.

I expect the career of clemens Dinger as suggested by Boeheim, before 1627 to mid 50s to be very likely.

best
jasper

Well, Andrea Ferara produced thousands of blades over at least two centuries!! :)
Naturally there seems a disparity in records, and there were a number of smiths in the Dinger family over generations. Without any further thought needed toward the latter Clemens Dinger attribution nor Toledo, my point was primarily that the making of this blade seems to me likely the earlier (pre 1627) and I do agree the period suggested.

[cornelistromp]

Well, Andrea Ferara produced thousands of blades over at least two centuries!! :)
Naturally there seems a disparity in records, and there were a number of smiths in the Dinger family over generations. Without any further thought needed toward the latter Clemens Dinger attribution nor Toledo, my point was primarily that the making of this blade seems to me likely the earlier (pre 1627) and I do agree the period suggested.

Hi Jim, yes 1627 is a kind of Terminus post quem the earliest evidence of date, he must have worked.
.

very best wishes,
Jasper

[Cathey]

H Jim,

I purchased both books from Ken Trotman, they are referenced as follows
M099.WEYERSBERG (A.) SOLINGER SCHWERTSCHMIEDE : 1 : 20.00
M009.KINMAN (S.) EUROPEAN MAKERS OF EDGED WEA : 1 : 45.00
Prices in pounds. deliver was very quick.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Cathey]

Type of Weapon: Scottish Basket hilted Broad Sword
Date: Circa 1730 (18th Century)
Overall Length: 101.6 cm (40 inches)
Blade length: 87 cm (34.3 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.3 cm (1.3 inches)
Hilt widest point: 11.5 cm
Inside grip length: 9.6 cm
Marks, etc.: Numerous marks to blade shoulder and in both fullers haven’t identified any of them as yet.

Description
Basket Hilt-Scottish-c1730-Broad Sword: - Thick steel basket Hilt has typical heart and circle decoration made of thick flat bars, no wrist guard. Blade length is pitted and has dark patina, numerous marks visible on blade shoulder and both fullers, probably German. The fuller runs almost the entire length of the blade. The blade may predate the hilt however they appear to have been together for very long time.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[cornelistromp]

Description
Basket Hilt-Scottish-c1730-Broad Sword: - Thick steel basket Hilt has typical heart and circle decoration made of thick flat bars, no wrist guard. Blade length is pitted and has dark patina, numerous marks visible on blade shoulder and both fullers, probably German. The fuller runs almost the entire length of the blade. The blade may predate the hilt however they appear to have been together for very long time.

Cheers Cathey and Rex[/QUOTE]

@ Cathey,
the blade seems indeed older, 150-200 year, out of the first half of the 16th century and maybe shortened.
this type of mark I noticed more often at the ricasso of a so-called compound or complex hilt from the first half of the 16th century.
Always on the left side of the ricasso (pommel up) of a double fullered
blade.

best,

[Jim McDougall]

Cathey, thank you so much for the source for those titles, Trotman is an excellent seller.
Jasper, nice catch on that blade!

Best regards,
Jim

[ulfberth]

Description
Basket Hilt-Scottish-c1730-Broad Sword: - Thick steel basket Hilt has typical heart and circle decoration made of thick flat bars, no wrist guard. Blade length is pitted and has dark patina, numerous marks visible on blade shoulder and both fullers, probably German. The fuller runs almost the entire length of the blade. The blade may predate the hilt however they appear to have been together for very long time.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

@ Cathey,
the blade seems indeed older, 150-200 year, out of the first half of the 16th century and maybe shortened.
this type of mark I noticed more often at the ricasso of a so-called compound or complex hilt from the first half of the 16th century.
Always on the left side of the ricasso (pommel up) of a double fullered
blade.

best,[/QUOTE]
Hi Jasper and Cathy,
the marks on the blade look like they are from the same maker, and yes the blade is from the first half of the 16th century , from south German Or North Italian origin.
The blade in the basket hilt is a similar blade and looks shortened.
Or it could be a blade from the same maker forged in different dimensions to begin with.
The blade of the complex hilt measures 4,5 CM at the cross guard and is 106,5 CM long.
I cant measure the blade on the basket hilt but I think 3,5 would be close.
Also the fullers on the one and a half sword are 7 mm wide.

@ Jasper , you'r first picture is from that Italian book, but were did you find the picture of the second sword ?
kind regards

Ulfberth

[cornelistromp]

@Dirk,

http://www.baldwin.co.uk/media/cms/auction-archive/auction-tms2/TMS2%20-%20Section%2002%20-%20Militaria.pdf

lot 184 pp80

best,
Jasper

[Cathey]

Hi Jasper and Ulfberth

Thanks for the example of what does appear to be the same mark on the ricasso, pity we cannot establish who the mark belonged to. I am still trying to decide what the marks lower down on the blade itself might be. The middle one looks almost like a scimitar sword, however I think the longer I stare at it the less I know what is.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[ulfberth]

Hi Jasper and Ulfberth

Thanks for the example of what does appear to be the same mark on the ricasso, pity we cannot establish who the mark belonged to. I am still trying to decide what the marks lower down on the blade itself might be. The middle one looks almost like a scimitar sword, however I think the longer I stare at it the less I know what is.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Hi Cathey,

Of the marks on the ricasso the one in the mid looks exactly the same,
the one above and below are different or put on from a different angle, horizontal vs upright.

Of the marks on the half of the blade the one in de mid looks like yours, however I can not identify for sure the mark on your blade.
What I am sure of is that the blade in the basket hilt is not shortened, because it is also 1,2 CM more narrow at the ricasso.
I believe that blade was made at this dimensions from the beginning and these dimensions are correct for a basket hilt :
Blade length: 87 cm
Blade widest point: 3.3 cm

One and a half hand sword
Blade length: 106 cm
Blade widest point: 4.5 cm

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

This is actually one of the first Basket hilts I purchased back in 1996 in Adelaide.

BASKET HILT Broad Sword
Date: Hilt Circa 1740 (18th Century), Blade earlier
Nationality: SCOTTISH
Overall Length: 36 ½” 92.9 cm
Blade length: 31 1/16” 79 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.2 cm
Hilt widest point: 5” 12.7 cm
Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.8 cm
Marks, etc.: 2 short fullers containing remnants of inscription, only the letters I O H A N T can be read with any certainty. Blade is pitted and has dark patina, possibly predates hilt.

It has been suggested that the name on the blade is Johanus Cole, but with so few letters to go on I am unconvinced at this stage.

Description
BASKET HILT Scottish Broad Sword. The hilt guards are attached to a very prominent and board flat ring under the pommel, which is associated. The space between the rear and additional rear-guards has a very short transverse linking cross-bar, one third of the way up from the blade-end of the hilt. The margins of the plates and shields are scalloped to follow the outline of the piercing. These consist of large coarsely shaped hearts and circles, which give an open appearance to the shield and plates. This hilt has an oval ring on the inside of the hilt. The blade has 2 short fullers containing remnants of inscription, only the letters I O H A N T can be read with any certainty, followed by an anchor mark. Blade is pitted and has dark patina and a number of sharp contact cuts to its edge. I would suggest that the blade definitely predates the hilt.

General Remarks
The same hilt features on a sword in the National Museum of Scotland Edinburgh LA 140

References:
CAMPBELL.A. Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden. pp 54-55
CURTIS, T The Lyle Official Arms and Armour Review 1976 Pp21
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp126 F20.
MOORE, W. Weapons of the American Revolution and Accoutrements. Pp 146, plate E33.
OAKESHOTT, E. European Weapons and Armour. (See Claymore) pp 175-182.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Cathey]

British Basket Hilt Cavalry Backsword c1740-55

Date: Circa 1740-1755 (18th Century)
Overall Length: 101.5 cm (40 inches)
Blade length: 85.6 cm (33.7 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.296 cm (1.3 inches)
Hilt widest point:
Inside grip length:
Marks, etc. Blade has mark on both sides and one deep fuller 61cm 24” long. There is a number painted on the hilt under the buff liner, probably an old museum reference, which appears to be 1831.over 2RS.

Description
Iron hilt consists of a bun pommel with a rather tall cylindrical tang-button, and a basket of more or less conventional Highland type, except that it lacks the addition of rear-guards, and the entire Saltire bars on the forward corner of each shield towards the pommel combine to form a rounded arch. The rear quillon does not project beyond the perimeter of the basket. The bars, which are of flattened rectangular section, are plain and unpierced. The grip is covered in black rayskin, wire binding is missing but brass Turks heads remain. There is a number painted on the hilt under the buff liner, probably an old museum reference, which appears to be 1831.over 2RS. Backsword blade with dark patina has mark on both sides and one deep fuller ¾ length.

General Remarks
Swords of this type were purchased by the colonels of British cavalry regiments, both horse and dragoons, for the use of their men. Comparable weapons are illustrated in the paintings of British heavy cavalry by David Morier, 1751 at Windsor Castle.

References:
Culloden The Swords and the Sorrows The National Trust for Scotland catalogue. Plate 1:51, pp 48.
Mazansky – Cyrill British basket Hilted Swords Pp95, Fig Fla (C1750)

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Cathey,
Sure am glad to see you back! as I would like to see this thread continue. These amazing swords are wonderful to see here as they offer so much opportunity to learn more on them.
This latest addition of a mid 18th century dragoon sword is a great example, and with the mysterious oval aperture in the hilt which has been the subject of considerable debate. I am inclined to agree with A. Darling in its most probable purpose to hold reins while handling the pistol in the other hand .

As always, I am drawn to the blades and markings, and this backsword has the inlaid brass (latten) anchor, but curiously situated almost off center near the fuller. As noted in the previous example (post #179) the anchor is seen situated at the terminus of fullers (very much in earlier Spanish styles adopted in Solingen in 17th century). Clearly that offers compelling suggestion the blade is from that century .

In the case of this sword, I am wondering if perhaps this is a backsword blade from a 'mortuary' type sword of mid 17th c. and possibly from the Hounslow factory. It is of course pure speculation at this point, but these German smiths used markings of their Solingen counterparts and often inlaid in latten, most notably the 'running wolf'.
Is it possible this blade could be of such provenance? Its curious position and placement seem to indicate such possibility, however it is known that German blades were brought in later at the turn of the century. Perhaps then this 'anchored' blade could be of that origin?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Please see http://www.oldswords.com/articles/The%20Earliest%20Scotish%20Basket%20Hilted%20Sword s-v1i4.pdf gfor a fine article on the weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[E.B. Erickson]

On the blade of Cathey's latest baskethilt post: take a look at the blade of her S hilt brass basket on page 1 of this thread. Same blade. I have personally seen multiple examples of this blade type in the brass S hilts of the mid 1700s, and as I recall, Neumann shows one as well. That being said, my bet is that they are German imports of the 1700s.

--ElJay

[Cathey]

HI Guys, another British basket

BASKET-HILT c1745 British Dragoons
Overall Length: 117 cm, (46.1 inches)
Blade length: 101.5 cm, (40 inches) Back blade from hilt for 58cm
Blade widest point: 3.128 cm (1.2 inches)
Marks, etc: Remnants of etched pattern inlaid with gold on both sides. Scottish thistle and sun design still evident

Description
BASKET-HILT British Dragoon Guards Troopers Sword pattern 1745. Unusually Large Basket hilt with typical heart design and English style Bun Pommel. Wide central fuller full length of blade, slight remnants of etched pattern inlaid with gold on both sides. Scottish thistle and sun design still evident. Blade is 101.5 cm, back blade from hilt for 58cm.

Dragoons were originally intended to be used as mounted infantry. In the early 18th century, cavalry was divided into 2 categories - regts of horse and regts of dragoons. The regts of horse were used in the traditional role of heavy cavalry - i.e. shock action. Dragoons were used mainly for reconnaissance - and usually fought dismounted in battle.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND pp 282
MAZANSKY (C.) British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology Of Basket-Type Sword Hilts. Pp97 Fig Fle & 125, Fig F17c
Scottish Sword & Shield Catalogue September 1994 Pp 6 No 8.
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction Spring 1996 15/5/96 Lot 126.
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction Spring 1998 7/10/99 Lot 82.
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction 5/5/04 Lot 52
WILKINSON LATHAM, John, SWORDS IN COLOUR Plate 29.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

On the blade of Cathey's latest baskethilt post: take a look at the blade of her S hilt brass basket on page 1 of this thread. Same blade. I have personally seen multiple examples of this blade type in the brass S hilts of the mid 1700s, and as I recall, Neumann shows one as well. That being said, my bet is that they are German imports of the 1700s.

--ElJay


so then my thought in #181 might be right?

[Battara]

Coming to the party late, I am thankful to you folks for this thread. I didn't know there was an Irish hilt! Now that I have some slight idea of that, I am confused on the Scottish. I know Cathy you mentioned that British and Scottish hilts are hard to distinguish, so would it then be in the pommel buns that would be the decider between Scottish and British styles?

BTW - I have always been interested in Scottish basket hilts, especially during the 18th century. One day when I grow up, I'll own one.......... :o

[Cathey]

Hi

Sadly their is not absolute way to be certain about the origin of many basket hilts by pommel alone. However, this is a good start. Generally the typical bun pommel will indicate an English sword etc. The trap is that swords get damaged over time and repaired locally and the blacksmith may not be to particular about which pommel they put back on a sword being repaired etc. I have found MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS a good help when it comes to referencing pommel types for age and nationality.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

[E.B. Erickson]

Here's my next basket.

English, ca. 1620

32 1/2" de blade, with short central fuller.

Excavated condition, but retains part of the grip and both brass wire Turk's head knots. The knucklebows are screwed to the pommel. Interestingly, this basket has the feature of a screw-on capstan. Most hilts of this basic pattern are dated in the late 1500s, but I date this one to the 1620s because of the total lack of the long quillions that characterize earlier examples.

An interesting feature of this sword (and something that I didn't think to photograph!) is what looks like langets at the blade shoulder. However, what appears to be langets are actually a repair. This blade apparently broke right where the tang meets the shoulder. The repair was effected by making a tang that has ears protruding on either side of the blade. The blade was inserted
between the ears and the whole welded back together. I'll be able to access my collection again in a few weeks, and will try to remember to photograph the repair.

[E.B. Erickson]

Another one.

English? Scottish? Probably dates 1680 - 1720 or so.

31 1/2" de blade with two narrow fullers extending about 8" down the blade. No stamps or inscriptions are present.

Hilt of fairly typical form for the late 1600s with plain unpierced panels with some simple filed/engraved lines. The grip appears to be original. An interesting feature of this sword is that rivets have been used to reinforce the hammer welds (see last photo). However, there's also an additional hole by the blade, and what is this hole for??? Securing the liner?
This is one of the lightest basket hilted swords I have seen. The hilt is composed of rather thin elements, and the weight of the sword is about 1.8 pounds.

[Battara]

Hi

Sadly their is not absolute way to be certain about the origin of many basket hilts by pommel alone. However, this is a good start. Generally the typical bun pommel will indicate an English sword etc. The trap is that swords get damaged over time and repaired locally and the blacksmith may not be to particular about which pommel they put back on a sword being repaired etc. I have found MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS a good help when it comes to referencing pommel types for age and nationality.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

Thank you both. I'll look into this resource.

Jose

[E.B. Erickson]

The first of my Mortuary swords. This one may not even qualify as a basket or half basket (not enough protective bars making up the hilt), but since Mazansky covers Morts in his book, this sword is not inappropriate for this thread!

Mid 1600s in date, with a 32 3/4" de blade inscribed on one side "+ SOLIDEO +" and the other side "+ GLORIA +".

What makes this sword of interest is that it has a thumbring, a feature not found commonly on English swords. The hilt decoration is composed of four grotesque faces, and foliage with some sparse piercings. The grip is one of my restorations, and the diagonal lines seen in places on the blade are artifacts of where some idiot in the past used an angle grinder on it.

[E.B. Erickson]

English, early 1700s.

30" se straight blade with a single back fuller, stamped on both sides with a running fox and SH.

This is apparently a grenadier's baskethilt of the 23rd Regiment: the Royal Welsh Fusileers. The grip is of embossed brass, each side with a crown, POW feathers, the motto "ICH DIEN", and a Hanoverian horse. Neumann shows this same grip design on an S hilted hanger (sword 26S), which is dated to about 1745. I think that the sword shown here is a pattern used ca 1700 by the 23rd. The blade is not shortened, and the fuller ends about 7" from the blade tip.

Mazansky shows several hilts of this type in his book.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

English, early 1700s.

30" se straight blade with a single back fuller, stamped on both sides with a running fox and SH.

This is apparently a grenadier's baskethilt of the 23rd Regiment: the Royal Welsh Fusileers. The grip is of embossed brass, each side with a crown, POW feathers, the motto "ICH DIEN", and a Hanoverian horse. Neumann shows this same grip design on an S hilted hanger (sword 26S), which is dated to about 1745. I think that the sword shown here is a pattern used ca 1700 by the 23rd. The blade is not shortened, and the fuller ends about 7" from the blade tip.

Mazansky shows several hilts of this type in his book.


Salaams E.B. Erickson The running fox with SH beautifully illustrated on the blades is of course from the Wood Street, Shotley Bridge Factory !! now refurbished as a fine house. What is not that well known is that the company also acquired the local Inn closeby... The Crown and Crossed Swords.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:shrug: My deliberate mistake above... SH stands for the mark of Samuel Harvey....of which there were 3; Father Son and Grandson...all involved in sword manufacture based in Birmingham. Does anyone know which ones used the SH blademark and which used the H only mark ?...all inside the body of the Running Fox.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Cathey]

Hi Eljay,

Great collection of baskets and I particularly like #191 the mortuary sword. Like you I have never seen one with a thumb ring before

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Eljay,

Great collection of baskets and I particularly like #191 the mortuary sword. Like you I have never seen one with a thumb ring before

Cheers Cathey and Rex


Interesting indeed as I also never recall seeing a thumb ring on a 'mortuary' type hilt. It seems that a good number of these swords were fabricated in the Hounslow factory, which was of course largely comprised of German makers brought into England earlier under the auspices of the King.

Is it possible that this characteristically European , especially German, feature may have been incorporated into this and perhaps a number of these hilts recalling those traditions?

[Jim McDougall]

:shrug: My deliberate mistake above... SH stands for the mark of Samuel Harvey....of which there were 3; Father Son and Grandson...all involved in sword manufacture based in Birmingham. Does anyone know which ones used the SH blademark and which used the H only mark ?...all inside the body of the Running Fox.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ibrahiim,
The whole Hounslow/Shotley Bridge/ Samuel Harvey circumstances in British swords have been a virtual conundrum which most collectors have found daunting at best.

The Shotley Bridge factory actually evolved around 1687 with Hermann Mohll and some of the makers of the Hounslow enterprise of earlier in the century comprised of German makers brought in for this purpose. They were closed down c. 1703 then reopened c. 1716 (if I recall correctly) .
It seems a good number of swords from earlier blades, probably Hounslow, did use the 'Passau wolf' (running wolf), however it has been suggested that earlier Shotley Bridge weapons also used this.

The 'Samuel Harvey' dynasty began in England with Samuel Harvey Sr. (b. 1698). His production was at 74 High Street, and continued until his death in 1778.
His son Samuel Harvey Jr. was with him in business , and moved to 4 Cannon Street in 1789. His son Samuel Harvey III was with him in business.
Jr. died in 1795, and in turn his son took over until his death in 1810.

Effectively, the Harveys made swords from c. 1716 until 1810.

It is known that the mid 18th century hangers and some other of their blades were marked with a running 'fox'. These are apparently a nod to the running wolf of the Passau/Solingen fame (clearly a fox with its notably plumed tail) and typically had the initials S H in the body.

There seem to be variations, and in some cases only the H is seen, however it is unclear whether in these case the missing letters are simply worn away or indeed never placed there).
I have seen one example of the Passau type wolf with an H, and one suggestion it might have been a Hounslow sword, but that idea was discounted and the idea of it being a Harvey variant suggested....but since it is the rough chiseled 'wolf' character, not the 'fox', it seems unlikely.

Many of the Harvey blades are simply stamped with the name S Harvey,
no fox, and near the hilt, not on the blade center. Others are seen with HARVEY alone.
There has been no evidence I am aware of that any particular variation of the fox and initials, or the stamped name were favored or used distinctively by any one of the Harvey men. It does seem the running fox with the SH initials are more consistant on the hangers of mid 18th century however.

That's the best I can figure so far, and I wanted to thank you for bringing up this interesting element concerning these blades and makers which as seen do occasionally occur in the blades of these swords.

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim,
The whole Hounslow/Shotley Bridge/ Samuel Harvey circumstances in British swords have been a virtual conundrum which most collectors have found daunting at best.

The Shotley Bridge factory actually evolved around 1687 with Hermann Mohll and some of the makers of the Hounslow enterprise of earlier in the century comprised of German makers brought in for this purpose. They were closed down c. 1703 then reopened c. 1716 (if I recall correctly) .
It seems a good number of swords from earlier blades, probably Hounslow, did use the 'Passau wolf' (running wolf), however it has been suggested that earlier Shotley Bridge weapons also used this.

The 'Samuel Harvey' dynasty began in England with Samuel Harvey Sr. (b. 1698). His production was at 74 High Street, and continued until his death in 1778.
His son Samuel Harvey Jr. was with him in business , and moved to 4 Cannon Street in 1789. His son Samuel Harvey III was with him in business.
Jr. died in 1795, and in turn his so took over until his death in 1810.

Effectively, the Harveys made swords from c. 1716 until 1810.

It is known that the mid 18th century hangers and some other of their blades were marked with a running 'fox'. These are apparently a nod to the running wolf of the Passau/Solingen fame (clearly a fox with its notably plumed tail) and typically had the initials S H in the body.

There seem to be variations, and in some cases only the H is seen, however it is unclear whether in these case the missing letters are simply worn away or indeed never placed there).
I have seen one example of the Passau type wolf with an H, and one suggestion it might have been a Hounslow sword, but that idea was discounted and the idea of it being a Harvey variant suggested....but since it is the rough chiseled 'wolf' character, not the 'fox', it seems unlikely.

Many of the Harvey blades are simply stamped with the name S Harvey,
no fox, and near the hilt, not on the blade center. Others are seen with HARVEY alone.
There has been no evidence I am aware of that any particular variation of the fox and initials, or the stamped name were favored or used distinctively by any one of the Harvey men. It does seem the running fox with the SH initials are more consistant on the hangers of mid 18th century however.

That's the best I can figure so far, and I wanted to thank you for bringing up this interesting element concerning these blades and makers which as seen do occasionally occur in the blades of these swords.

All the best,
Jim


Salaams Jim, That is a great assist on Samuel Harvey...I have a sword with one collector associate with the HAR stacked above VEY in a sort of block stamp.. Thank you very much for your help on this and looking around I note how difficult the conundrum on the Harveys actually is. Much appreciated !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[E.B. Erickson]

Jim,
Thanks for the comments on the Harvey clan - very helpful.

Cathey/Ibrahim,
Regarding thumbrings on Mortuary swords, I was unaware of their existence until about 7 years ago, when one showed up on an auction site. The one I own came up for sale shortly thereafter, and I've been on the lookout for others ever since then. Mazansky does have around 6 Morts shown in his book that have thumbrings, but as I recall he doesn't always mention the presence of a thumbring in the descriptions. Examine the photos and you'll find them.

[Cathey]

Nationality English
Overall Length: 99 cm (39 inches)
Blade length: 84 cm (33.1 inches)
Blade widest point: 4cm (1.6 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13 cm
Inside grip length: 8.4 cm

Description
Troopers version of the Howard hilt cavalry sword. Typical flattened circular pommel, leather wire bound, good condition grip with steel basket guard of squared lattice panels, large trailing rein loop oval panel. One central fuller 17cm long which starts 4 ½ cm down from hilt. Howard 3rd dragoon Guards commissioned from 1748-1765. Good condition for age, some pitting.

The term Howard hilt comes from the connection based on plate 43 in John Wallace’s Scottish Swords and Dirks. Wallace connected the pattern with Howard based on a similar sword in a portrait of General Sir Charles Howard in the uniform of the 3rd Dragoon Guards.

References:
MAZANSKY (C.) British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology Of Basket-Type Sword Hilts. Pp184. 186 & 232
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 29.S
SOUTWICK, Leslie, The Price Guide to Antique Edged Weapons Pp 143 No 389.
Wallace, John Scottish Swords and Dirks an illustrated Guide to Scottish Weapons plate 43.
Wallace John Scottish Swords and Dirks Plate 43.
WALLIS & WALLIS Connoisseur Collectors Sale Spring 1996 1/5/96 Lot 133.
Weller & Dufty Sale 11409 lot 1287 (shows Scabbard) pp33

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The whole idea here is to learn from these weapons, which we are all doing together, so no such thing as an amateur....especially when one has the courage to step forward and make an entry regardless of status.
Thank you so much!

Very much agreed, the blades are intriguing, and offer us much toward learning more on the history of each sword as a whole.

On that note, I would ask more on a question Cathey directed to Eljay (post #89) concerning the Samuel Harvey mark often seen on British dragoon blades, in many cases initials SH in the running wolf.
It seems that at some point the 'S' was dropped and the 'H' stood alone on the 'wolf' (fox as termed in England).


I tried to find what I could on the Birmingham swordsmith Samuel Harvey, which apparently was the name of Samuel Sr. (b.1698) ; junior, and his son the third. Senior died in 1778; junior in 1795 and grandson in 1810.
Since all three had the same name , that would not be the cause of the omission of the S.

It would seem that there were a number of variations in marks, in that a slotted hilt (c.1780) had a crown over H/vey....some were marked S.Harvey with no fox.....some cavalry blades were inscribed Harvey and one example (I think in Neumann) has a fox with only the H, dating from 1750-68.

Does anyone have more data on variations of Harvey stamps?
While on many types of swords, some of the British dragoon basket hilts had Harvey blades......any examples?


Salaams Jim, I stumbled upon this http://drbenjaminchurchjr.blogspot.com/2013_01_13_archive.html which examines the Hounslow Factory(and a possible copy of a sword in the USA) and indicates that the H in the Fox is from that Foundry...thus perhaps not the Harvey designation. I have somewhere in a pile of notes a sword photo with the Harvey stamp in a block with HAR then VEY underneath.

Salaams Cathey ~ May this have a bearing on your #154 and #156. The single H being for Hounslow not Harvey?

Quote" A "Hounslow Mark" was placed on a sword manufactured in Great Britain by the Hounslow Sword Factory, established in 1629 when a number of German swordsmiths emigrated from the continent to England to begin work at a sword factory, located in Hounslow about 12 miles just to the west of London, that was established by an entrepreneur named Benjamin Stone. The different swordmakers put their individual marks on the blades they manufactured but some put their names on instead. Many blades were left unmarked. Not a great deal is known about the individual marks but the swords produced by the Hounslow factory were the best made in England, even if they did not quite match the quality of the swords made on the continent. The Hounslow factory made thousands of blades and swords".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Cathey]

Hi Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I thought you may have solved this mystery until I looked at the dates Hounslow was in business. I have gone through a few articles on the Hounslow makers and whilst two of these show pictures of the fox with the H and describe this as an authentic Hounslow mark, there is no historical link in the body of the articles to support this or link it with a particular maker.

It appears Hounslow opened for business in 1620 and ceased manufacturing in 1660, which in some cases is earlier than a number of blades I have seen that bear this particular mark.

One explanation might be that a family that left the Hounslow business continued to use the mark into the 1700’s. Time wise the Harvey family remain a better fit for the dates of swords bearing this variation on the fox mark which we do know they used. Also apart from the missing S, the fox mark is virtually identical to the one used by Harvey.

If we could find a link between the Harvey’s and Hounslow then we might be on to something.

Cheers Cathey

[Cathey]

Date: 1740-55
Nationality: British
Overall Length: 103.5 cm (40.7 inches)
Blade length: 87.4 cm (34.4 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.673 cm (1.4 inches)
Hilt widest point: 10.6 cm (4.2 inches)
Inside grip length: 9.5 cm (3.7 inches)
Marks, etc.: Mark ANDREA and the 17th century version of the so-called “Passau running wolf

Description
The hilt is constructed of fine iron cage work three quarter guard formed of a vertical and horizontal arrangement of narrow bars joined at the top by three scrolled bars, each with pierced diamond-shaped central panel, to a ring beneath the pommel. The spaces beneath the guard with three openwork hearts. There are a number of very old period repairs to some of the bars and one of the front bars has a crack toward the blade. The grip is leather warped with brass wire. The pommel, an Adams style urn shaped one, is almost certainly a replacement dating from 1785-95. The broadsword blade has three short central fullers and bears the mark ANDREA and the 17th century version of the so-called “Passau running wolf mark”.

General Remarks
Described by the Baron of Earlshall as “An English Cavalry sword, very probably for an Officer in the Household Cavalry and dating from 1740-55. The pommel, an Adams style urn shaped one, is almost certainly a replacement dating from 1785-95. However, it has an extremely good 17th century double edge blade mounted.”

The term Howard hilt comes from the connection based on plate 43 in John Wallace’s Scottish Swords and Dirks. Wallace connected the pattern with Howard based on a similar sword in a portrait of General Sir Charles Howard in the uniform of the 3rd Dragoon Guards.

References:
Bonhams Knightsbridge Wednesday 26th November 2008 London lot 89 pp33.
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 29.S
WALLACE, John SCOTTISH SWORDS AND DIRKS plate 43


Cheers Cathey and Rex

[fernando]

... Mid 1600s in date, with a 32 3/4" de blade inscribed on one side "+ SOLIDEO +" and the other side "+ GLORIA +"...
Hi Eljay.
Most probably there is nothing new in what i am saying but, the term SOLIDEO may have a rather intentional meaning, when inscribed in a sword. As you know, the solideo is a cap used by bishops and such name originates in the latin "soli Deo tollitur", which means "only before god you take it off". I just thought its inscription in a blade will have the same purpose; something like "only in the name of God you will unsheath it" :o.

[E.B. Erickson]

Hi Ibrahim,
Thanks for the thoughts on SOLIDEO GLORIA.

It also means SOLI = only DEO = God GLORIA = glory; so "to God alone belongs the glory", or "Glory only to God" or something similar. A sentiment that fits well with the Puritan theology of many of the Commonwealth forces during the ECW!

--ElJay

[fernando]

Hi Ibrahim,
Thanks for the thoughts on SOLIDEO GLORIA.

It also means SOLI = only DEO = God GLORIA = glory; so "to God alone belongs the glory", or "Glory only to God" or something similar. A sentiment that fits well with the Puritan theology of many of the Commonwealth forces during the ECW!

--ElJay
Hello Eljay,
I assume your reasoning is indeed better mine, specially the second expression.
... this assuming that you are addressing fernando, not Ibrahiim ;) .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahim,
Thanks for the thoughts on SOLIDEO GLORIA.

It also means SOLI = only DEO = God GLORIA = glory; so "to God alone belongs the glory", or "Glory only to God" or something similar. A sentiment that fits well with the Puritan theology of many of the Commonwealth forces during the ECW!

--ElJay


Soli-Fernando ...That is thanks only to Fernando ..as I had nothing to do with it :) Ibrahiim al Balooshi.. :)

[E.B. Erickson]

Mistaken identity! Sorry about that!

[fernando]

Mistaken identity! Sorry about that!
:cool:

[kronckew]

too many Fernandos here (fernando k vs. fernando) do not spoil the broth, but i can get a bit dizzy keeping track of who's who. :D
Background (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC05YwDUmVg)

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I thought you may have solved this mystery until I looked at the dates Hounslow was in business. I have gone through a few articles on the Hounslow makers and whilst two of these show pictures of the fox with the H and describe this as an authentic Hounslow mark, there is no historical link in the body of the articles to support this or link it with a particular maker.

It appears Hounslow opened for business in 1620 and ceased manufacturing in 1660, which in some cases is earlier than a number of blades I have seen that bear this particular mark.

One explanation might be that a family that left the Hounslow business continued to use the mark into the 1700’s. Time wise the Harvey family remain a better fit for the dates of swords bearing this variation on the fox mark which we do know they used. Also apart from the missing S, the fox mark is virtually identical to the one used by Harvey.

If we could find a link between the Harvey’s and Hounslow then we might be on to something.

Cheers Cathey

Cathey, like you I was pretty excited with Ibrahiim's suggestion on the 'H' possibly representing Hounslow!
I also looked back into material on Hounslow, and found that this would not have corresponded with contemporary Hounslow practices in markings.
While for a time I thought that Hounslow did not use the 'wolf' or 'fox' markings, I found contrary evidence in that they did indeed use the familiar running wolf chiseled mark.

Since Hounslow had ceased by the 1660s, it does not seem that such practice would accede into the Harvey timeline, nor would the smiths of Hounslow have used the contrary figure of a noticeably tailed fox as used by the Harvey's. I have personally always felt that the fox used by the Harveys was perhaps a 'nod' to the Hounslow smiths in a rather commemorative sense, as the reputation certainly would remain known then.

Thank you so much, as always, for the wonderful examples you continue to post here, and for keeping this thread going!!

Fernando, excellent suggestion on the compellingly plausible interpretation of SOLIDEO GLORIA . Often the literal interpretation of words, terms and phrases can be rather difficult to understand properly in the mindset of our times, but such dimensional placement into the context and times of the weapon really makes a difference!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I thought you may have solved this mystery until I looked at the dates Hounslow was in business. I have gone through a few articles on the Hounslow makers and whilst two of these show pictures of the fox with the H and describe this as an authentic Hounslow mark, there is no historical link in the body of the articles to support this or link it with a particular maker.

It appears Hounslow opened for business in 1620 and ceased manufacturing in 1660, which in some cases is earlier than a number of blades I have seen that bear this particular mark.

One explanation might be that a family that left the Hounslow business continued to use the mark into the 1700’s. Time wise the Harvey family remain a better fit for the dates of swords bearing this variation on the fox mark which we do know they used. Also apart from the missing S, the fox mark is virtually identical to the one used by Harvey.

If we could find a link between the Harvey’s and Hounslow then we might be on to something.

Cheers Cathey

Salaams Cathey, I think you are right...There is no defined link to join Hounslow with the running Fox or the H for that matter. There are swords from Shotley Bridge that carry both the Shotley Bridge wording and the Running Fox which is also not Chrystal clear since even Harvey Withers calls IT a Running Horse !

On analysis Hounslo or Hownsloe or Hownslow swords carried entirely different marks often based on the Me Fecit script and variations of it. I can find no proof of marks of Hounslow of any kind of Fox...

Clearly then SH and H were two marks inside the Running Fox outline of the Harveys and also Harvey and apparently a HAR and a VEY under...as a block inscription with no fox at all.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I have found a most interesting note on http://www.mocavo.co.uk/The-Victoria-History-of-the-County-of-Durham-Volume-2-3/704590/320 which may have escaped scrutiny... This old volume places many things in perspective...

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim,
Thank you so much for always adding these interesting and astute observations and especially these remarkably pertinent links!
These additions perfectly illustrate that researching these weapons and the intriguing elements of their unique histories often involves forays into most unexpected and obscure sources.
These are the kinds of details which truly add to the dimension of our understanding and appreciation of these arms!

Best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim,
Thank you so much for always adding these interesting and astute observations and especially these remarkably pertinent links!
These additions perfectly illustrate that researching these weapons and the intriguing elements of their unique histories often involves forays into most unexpected and obscure sources.
These are the kinds of details which truly add to the dimension of our understanding and appreciation of these arms!

Best regards,
Jim


Salaams Jim, It is a pleasure to take part albeit as a virtual observer in this masterclass originated by Cathey. Your input is an enormous inspiration to all Forum members especially those who enjoy, as I do, the potential for research ...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I have posted one of my three Black Watch pattern baskets early in this thread, so I will now post the remaining two, starting with this one.

Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Overall Length: 92.2 cm (36.3 inches)
Blade length: 76.4 cm (30.1 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.121 cm (1.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13.3 cm (5.2 inches)
Inside grip length: 11.3 cm (4.4 inches)
Marks, etc: The Pommel is marked with an F over 20

Description
English basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1760 with 30.2” blade 76.5 cm. Overall Length 36 ¾ “ 93.3 cm. A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, straight single edged fullered blade. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an F over 20) with spherical button, wire bound leather grip.

This hilt is typical of those manufactured by Dru Drury Sr, London, however as the blade is unsigned this cannot be confirmed. Whilst this pattern of basket hilt is usually regarded as having been produced by Jeffery’s or Dury, it is probable that Jeffery’s and Drury sub-contracted for finished guards, pommels and blades from Birmingham and assembled them at their London Workshops utilizing their own grips and grip coverings.

If anyone has any thoughts on what the F over 20 signifies on the pommel I would be most grateful.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341
DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s & pp142 plate 241.S
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Guys

I have posted one of my three Black Watch pattern baskets early in this thread, so I will now post the remaining two, starting with this one.

Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Overall Length: 92.2 cm (36.3 inches)
Blade length: 76.4 cm (30.1 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.121 cm (1.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13.3 cm (5.2 inches)
Inside grip length: 11.3 cm (4.4 inches)
Marks, etc: The Pommel is marked with an F over 20

Description
English basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1760 with 30.2” blade 76.5 cm. Overall Length 36 ¾ “ 93.3 cm. A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, straight single edged fullered blade. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an F over 20) with spherical button, wire bound leather grip.

This hilt is typical of those manufactured by Dru Drury Sr, London, however as the blade is unsigned this cannot be confirmed. Whilst this pattern of basket hilt is usually regarded as having been produced by Jeffery’s or Dury, it is probable that Jeffery’s and Drury sub-contracted for finished guards, pommels and blades from Birmingham and assembled them at their London Workshops utilizing their own grips and grip coverings.

If anyone has any thoughts on what the F over 20 signifies on the pommel I would be most grateful.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341
DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s & pp142 plate 241.S
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100

Cheers Cathey and Rex



Salaams Cathey, May I ask is the letter an F or could it be an E ?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems I have seen these kind of letter/number inscriptions on others of these British basket hilts. Naturally my inclination would be that it would likely be a rack number as these were to other ranks. While it is a thought to possibly be production number or maker/vendor number as these components were outsourced usually, I doubt something in lots like pommels would be so marked.

This military pattern is of course most interesting, and the producers named are the most typically seen. I have seen these hilts with what appeared to be a M1788 light cavalry sabre blade, and wonder how these might have been issued in the latter 18th century with curved blade.
Flank company perhaps?
Eljay, any thoughts?

[ulfberth]

Hello all,

a friend of mine send me this picture of a basket hilt, around 1m total Length and the blade around 3,5 CM wide.
That's al info I got, found in France, the hilt does not look familiar to me, any thoughts anyone ?

Thanks beforehand

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

This is a most interesting example Ulfberth!
In addressing the hilt alone as the single image is all there is to go on, it has a most 'garrison' look to it, that is much like something for other ranks in the Scottish units of the British army. All appearances are to around third quarter of 18th as these 'tall cone' pommels seem to be closest to (G7, Mazansky). In Mazansky (p.147) there is an example with this type pommel c.1770, and it has the same rudimentary feel to the seemingly 'mechanical' looking piercing and decorative motif in the guards.

The placement of a grommet like open disc in the guard on this example seems to recall these kinds of open discs in the example referenced.
What is most curious is the odd 'shield' like piercing in one guard (loosely recalling Mazansky, family B , iii).

While this is stated provenance from France, there does not seem to be any reason to assume this was used by French forces, nor expatriate Scots of any diaspora post Culloden. As noted this hilt seems far later in the century than the 1746 Culloden event, and a hilt probably intended for British army regiment use would not have likely been in France.......not unless this was something from the Napoleonic campaigns.

I cannot find an exact match, but the style of the work recalling the piercing of Scottish hilts, but in a more austere manner, seems to fall into the kind of regimental manner of the Jeffries/Drury type hilts of that 18th century period.

With any luck, we might have the opinion of Eljay, whose experience with these kinds of swords is well established.

[ulfberth]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your comment, the 'garrison' look makes sense since the cross guard plate has the style of the Pattern 1796 Heavy Cavalry Trooper's Sword. I've looked but I can't seem to find a similar hilt anywhere.

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your comment, the 'garrison' look makes sense since the cross guard plate has the style of the Pattern 1796 Heavy Cavalry Trooper's Sword. I've looked but I can't seem to find a similar hilt anywhere.

kind regards

Ulfberth

My pleasure, thank you for sharing this!
As I cannot see the hilt entirely, do you mean the bottom of the hilt (stool) which does seem to have piercings similar to those on the M1796 heavy cavalry sword?
The spirally gadrooned grip on this seems atypical as well, and more of the 'smallsword' or court sword type of the period.
It is hard to say whether this is an authentically working life armourers work or more modern assembly without having it in hand, but if it is indeed aged in accord in all components it could be of Napoleonic period.

All best regards,
Jim

[ulfberth]

Hi Jim,

this is the part I mean , I hope to hold the sword in my hands so post more pics.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Wow, that is of course most definitely the disc hilt, and an interesting mélange of components, but solidly done. I have seen these kinds of assemblies from various sword types in frontier instances in colonial places such as Mexico, but not with basket hilts like this. In the colonial cases these were in largely rural areas where quantities of swords or blades etc were not readily available, but in the Scottish and English areas as well as on the Continent this was certainly not the case.

[ulfberth]

Here are the other pictures, If someone has more information on this kind of hilt it would be most welcome.
Total length 104
Blade width at the base 4 cm
No stamps or regiment numbers.

Thanks

Ulfberth

[Cathey]

hi Guys

I have gone through all of my baskets and have nothing with a base like this one. If someone out there has one similar, please post for comparison. Very nice sword though and extremely unusual hilt configuration overall.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[ulfberth]

Thanks for your comment Catey,
I'm having concerns about the way the hilt is riveted on to the guard plate, and I could nor find an other basket hilt made this way.
For the moment this remains a mystery and I'm wondering if this is a military assembly or a later composite sword.
kind regards

Ulfberth

[E.B. Erickson]

When I saw Ulfberth's sword, it set off bells in my head - but where had I seen that before? Figured it out. Wood's book has one, and so does Mazansky.
Mazansky p.188 has a hilt just like the one in Ulfberth's photos. Differences: pommel is nicer on Ulfberth's, and the one in Mazansky has screws instead of rivets. Ulfbeth's also looks like the shield (Mazansky's terminology) has been modified.
I'd post a scan, but I don't have a scanner, so I'll leave that to someone else.

Mazansky notes a possible French connection (not the Gene Hackman version), with possible manufacture dates of late 17-early 1800s, but also notes that this remains to be proven.

I need to post the rest of my baskets in this thread.

--ElJay

[ulfberth]

Hi Eljay,

thank you for pointing this out, If someone could take a picture or a scan it would give an idea.
In the meanwhile I found a similar basket hilt in Museo delle Armi Antiche di San Marino .
This one has a blade with a blade with a double fuller but the pommel and the hilt are identical .

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

Rex took a photo of page 188 (see attached) and certainly looks extremely similar. I agree with the view that his one is probably of French manufacture perhaps for a Scottish exile hence the unusual hilt configuration.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[ulfberth]

Hi Catey

Thanks for posting the picture of the Mazansky book, I think this is as close as it gets.
We have seen three almost identical hilts and in all three the guard fits on the base plate pierced and attached by either a riveted method or or secured by bolted nuts.
The one in the Italian museum does not have these bolts and seems riveted to.
I think we can conclude this is not a composite but the way this type of basket hilts were constructed.

Thanks all for you help!

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

I agree with Ulfberth, this is compelling to see three examples similar of what seems an anomalous form of these basket hilts, showing a certain degree of consistency in the guard piercings and other components.

What is most interesting is the note as referenced in Mazansky (p.188) which suggests (as per Stephen Wood formerly of United Services Museum) that these may have been fashioned for Jacobites in exile in France at end of 18th c. While not proven, this does seem a highly plausible suggestion.

The blades which appear on these as far as I can tell appear of mid to latter 18th c forms consistant with post Culloden cavalry dragoon swords. These, whch were often if not typically of German mfg. would have been quite available in France in these times.

The curious piercings seem to be representative of many used on the Scottish hilts traditionally produced (the unusual 'shield' form) along with some which do not as far as I know occur on them, but if not mistaken, are among mysterious alleged Jacobite symbols. Case in point, the five point star, which I believe I have seen referred to as Jacobite, but its direct symbolism unknown. It may have been Masonic, as connections between Scottish and French lodges are well established, in many cases I believe transcended many political issues.

The striated tall cone pommel seems atypical but most aligned with Mazansky typology (IIIb, p.27), on two of the examples Ulfberht shows and the low dome with capstan form in the Mazansky reference somewhat aligns with form shown in his groups, but lacks the rounded base.
The integral lip around the tall cone examples is notably unusual in my view.

At this point, I am wondering if perhaps there might be references outside our sources which might have reference to French versions of Scottish basket hilts? I do not have the Aries series, but possibly there might be reference there?
Beyond that, possibly some French types of sword motif might carry some similarities to these?

While the Jacobite cause effectively ended at Culloden Moor in 1746 with that tragic defeat, naturally that idealism did not, and was carried with its followers fleeing the wrath of the Hanoverian machine. It certainly seems likely that these followers carried on in France, along with Prince Charles, though no further attempt was made to regain the throne.

This is one of the most interesting aspects of studying these arms, to have these often poignant stories told by them, and to preserve them .

[ulfberth]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for you comment especially under the difficult circumstances.
I am very interested in the Jacobite symbols , there even seems to be a connection to 17th and 18th C Freemasonry , any comments or hidden knowledge that can be revealed would be most welcome.

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Cathey]

Hi Guys, this is the last of my Black watch pattern swords

Date: Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Nationality: Scottish Black Watch 42nd Highland Regiment
Overall Length: 96.8 cm (38.1 inches)
Blade length: 82.8 cm (32.6 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.5 cm (1.4 inches) fuller runs 63.9 cm (25.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 16 cm (6.3 inches)
Inside grip length: 12 cm (4.7 inches)
Marks, etc: Nil

Description
English Black Watch basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1750-70. Straight single edged fullered blade 32” blade 82.8 cm. Overall Length 38.2“, 96.8 cm. Although unmarked the hilt pattern suggests the Maker to be Jeffrey’s of London. Regulation Jefferys hilt, panels pierced with triangular darted and circular openings, line engravings included in panel decoration. The three branches of the guard are riveted to a ring which fits around the truncated conical pommel with spherical button, leather grip wire missing.

General Remarks
Slight difference in Guard construction indicates this sword was probably supplied by Nathaniel Jefferys London. No maker, retailer or Military marks found.

When I compare this sword to my two others by Dury the guard is distinctly different. In referring to this as Black Watch I am really referring to the pattern, this sword could have been used by other regiments at the time.

Given the variation in quality I have seen in these swords I concur with others that it is likely they were manufactured either whole or in part by other cutlers beside Drury and Jeffries. All three in my collection have quite substantial and well-made guards, however I have seen others with guards that felt almost like tin as they were so light and poorly made.

References:
AMERICAN SOCIETY OF ARMS COLLECTORS: BOOK OF Edged Weapons. Plate 4 pp209
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341
DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784 published by Andrew Moebray Inc pp13,
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s, pp42 plate 243.S
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

This exact hilt is shown in Wallace, "Scottish Swords & Dirks" (#42) with the same guard plate piercings and outline, pommel, etc. and with a blade marked Jeffries (Nathaniel, London, worked 1768-79). There is the GR on the blade.
While no 'pattern' officially designated (first known date for such was 1757)and the first contractor records were in 1759, it appears that Black Watch must have had their own regimental pattern pre 1757 (as noted in reference re: mutiny 1743 where some men noted as having 'non regimental' swords) .


These seem to have developed by Jeffries (London) and Dru Drury of Birmingham from earlier government contract swords based on the Glasgow type hilts (possibly SImpson Glasgow?)/

[Cathey]

Brass hilted Pattern 1798 Offices Basket Hilt
Date: c1798
Nationality: Scottish
Overall Length: 38 ¼” 97.1cm
Blade length: 32 ¾” 83.2 cm
Blade widest point: 1.1/2” 3.7 cm
Hilt widest point: 5 ¼” 13.5 cm
Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.2 cm
Marks, etc.: J J Runkel Solingen (only the letters J J R and gen are clear)

Description
Basket Hilt-Scottish-c1798-Highland Officer broadsword Brass hilt
Highland infantry officer's broadsword; the type carried by Scottish infantry regiments during the Peninsula War and Battle of Waterloo against Napoleon's forces. The single fullered broad sword blade is marked J J Runkel Solingen, has been ground at some point which gives it the illusion of being watered. The hilt is brass hilt is constructed of solid plain panels and has remnants of past gilding. The grip is fish skin with brass wire. Provenance : William Kearney Collection (Adams Auctions Dublin 1990)

General Remarks
The 1798 Pattern was the first attempt by the British to standardize sword patterns for the Scottish regiments and was very loose in some respects, with blades coming from Solingen (Prussia / Germany), England and Scotland, clearly with officers mounting the blades from their existing pre-pattern. All highlander officers were wearing this sword at Waterloo. Scottish regiments from loyalist families as well as some rearmed rebel families who had sworn allegiance to the king, were fielded in the war with France. Officers were armed with these swords as a concession to their fiercely defended Scottish heritage.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I am now running into my more contemporary basket hilts, although this is one of two private purchase examples I have that are pre-date the 1828 Pattern.

Nationality: British importer, Scottish Sword with German Blade
Date: Circa 1800-1808
Maker/Retailer: J J Runkel
Overall Length: 39” 99 cm
Blade length; 33” 83.8 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.9 cm
Hilt widest point: 5 2/4” 13.7 cm
Inside grip length: 4” 10.1 cm
Marks, etc.: J J Runkel Solingen

Description
SCOTTISH STEEL BASKET HILT SWORD: 33" double edged blade marked RUNKEL SOLINGEN to both sides with areas of light & dark staining & short fullers; very good hilt & pommel with grey finish; fish skin grips bound with woven silver wire.

General Remarks
From around 1778 to 1808 J J Runkel imported many thousands of swords and blades from Solingen for the British Market. From around 1800 the spelling of Solingen changed by the omission of the ‘h’ between the ó’and ‘l’.

At first glance this sword appears to be a typical regimental 828 pattern basket hilt, however when you put this sword alongside a more traditional 1828 the guard has a number of differences. The first is the blade, these pre-pattern or private purchase baskets often sported the early Runkel blades common on the brass hilted 1798 pattern swords

Looking just at the hilt construction, the plate of the side guard is scalloped and decorated with circles and lines as apposed the regular pattern heart decoration. The outer shields have only four hearts and small circles as opposed to the eight hearts on the regular pattern example. The lobes on the side guards are not joined as in the 1828 pattern.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

Whilst responding to this thread by Fernando [URL=http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=195638&posted=1#post195638]
I came across some additional examples of European Basket Hilts.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I agree with Ulfberth, this is compelling to see three examples similar of what seems an anomalous form of these basket hilts, showing a certain degree of consistency in the guard piercings and other components.

What is most interesting is the note as referenced in Mazansky (p.188) which suggests (as per Stephen Wood formerly of United Services Museum) that these may have been fashioned for Jacobites in exile in France at end of 18th c. While not proven, this does seem a highly plausible suggestion.

The blades which appear on these as far as I can tell appear of mid to latter 18th c forms consistant with post Culloden cavalry dragoon swords. These, whch were often if not typically of German mfg. would have been quite available in France in these times.

The curious piercings seem to be representative of many used on the Scottish hilts traditionally produced (the unusual 'shield' form) along with some which do not as far as I know occur on them, but if not mistaken, are among mysterious alleged Jacobite symbols. Case in point, the five point star, which I believe I have seen referred to as Jacobite, but its direct symbolism unknown. It may have been Masonic, as connections between Scottish and French lodges are well established, in many cases I believe transcended many political issues.

The striated tall cone pommel seems atypical but most aligned with Mazansky typology (IIIb, p.27), on two of the examples Ulfberht shows and the low dome with capstan form in the Mazansky reference somewhat aligns with form shown in his groups, but lacks the rounded base.
The integral lip around the tall cone examples is notably unusual in my view.

At this point, I am wondering if perhaps there might be references outside our sources which might have reference to French versions of Scottish basket hilts? I do not have the Aries series, but possibly there might be reference there?
Beyond that, possibly some French types of sword motif might carry some similarities to these?

While the Jacobite cause effectively ended at Culloden Moor in 1746 with that tragic defeat, naturally that idealism did not, and was carried with its followers fleeing the wrath of the Hanoverian machine. It certainly seems likely that these followers carried on in France, along with Prince Charles, though no further attempt was made to regain the throne.

This is one of the most interesting aspects of studying these arms, to have these often poignant stories told by them, and to preserve them .


Salaams Jim, In reference to your details about The French in terms of Basket Hilts...I note from Scotland (A New History) by Michael Lynch page 335 refers. Quote" Charles's expedition was financed by a combination of private venture capital largely put up by *Aeneas MacDonald. an expatriate Scot with a banking house in Paris, and credit borrowed on the security of the Sobieski Jewels, a legacy from his mother Clementina. It paid for the modest arsenal of 20 field pieces, 3,500 assorted guns, 2,400 broadswords, which was loaded on two ships berthed at Nantes in June 1745. More than half this arsenal and the 100 Marines aboard the Elizabeth failed to reach Scotland for they had to turn back after an encounter with an English Man o' War off the Lizard, and only the Du Teillay reached Arisaig on 3 August". Unquote.


This illustrates a conduit through which weapons were entering Scotland and moreover the potential for French and probably German swords being supplied. It throws into the mix broadsword variants from the entire European region and goes some way in showing the vast variety of weapons that even today we are confronted with.

*For more on the amazing story of Aeneas Macdonald see http://www.yourphotocard.com/Ascanius/Aeneas%20Macdonald%20-%20National%20Archives.htm

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely excellent Ibrahiim!!! Thank you so much for that entry.
That is perfectly substantiated support for the volumes of arms with these expatriated Jacobites in France. I'm always amazed at your tenacity at finding these extremely important references online.!

All the best
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Absolutely excellent Ibrahiim!!! Thank you so much for that entry.
That is perfectly substantiated support for the volumes of arms with these expatriated Jacobites in France. I'm always amazed at your tenacity at finding these extremely important references online.!

All the best
Jim

Salaams Jim...Thank you ! I just per chance happened to have a copy of Scotland (A New History) by Michael Lynch page 335 with that gem of information in it whilst web search showed the banker as having formed one of the band of men ..."Seven Men of Moidart"...who went ashore with the goods and joined Price Charles as one of his officers...:)

For the swashbuckling story of this gallant convoy please see http://yourphotocard.com/Ascanius/LogDuTeillay.pdf which are the events taken from the actual ships log of the Du Teillay.

Sobieski Family Jewellery.
The Jewellery is linked to the weapons procurement of a certain Scottish /half French banker, Aeneas MacDonald, who appears to have used the treasure as leverage to obtain weapons in France; noted in the above posts...Since Bonnie Prince Charlie later settled in France and Italy it can be perhaps assumed that the Jewellery was useful for that portion of his life in addition..

Prince Charles Edward Stuart. (1720 – 1788)
Prince Charles or 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' as he is more commonly referred to, was a leader in the Jacobite uprising where the House of Stuart fought the House of Hanover to claim the British Throne. This ultimately lead to Prince Charles's defeat at the Battle of Culloden and his exile to Europe..

His mother, Marie-Clementina Sobieska, was the granddaughter of King John III Sobieski of Poland, married to King James III of England in 1719. Upon their marriage Marie-Clementina brought with her a large dowry, several thousand hectares of land and the Sobieski Family Jewellery.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All...This is an interesting article below. I note that the author makes reference to the Shotley Bridge swordmaking centre, however, I have seen no examples of Basket Hilts from that stable...Not counting the two on the outside Wall of the local Hotel; "The Crown and Crossed Swords". (Owned at the time by the sword makers family) Whilst that could indicate English Basket swords I have seen no evidence other than below.

http://www.oldswords.com/articles/The%20Earliest%20Scotish%20Basket%20Hilted%20Sword s-v1i4.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kronckew]

Salaams All...This is an interesting article below. I note that the author makes reference to the Shotley Bridge swordmaking centre, however, I have seen no examples of Basket Hilts from that stable...Not counting the two on the outside Wall of the local Hotel; "The Crown and Crossed Swords". (Owned at the time by the sword makers family) Whilst that could indicate English Basket swords I have seen no evidence other than below.

http://www.oldswords.com/articles/The%20Earliest%20Scotish%20Basket%20Hilted%20Sword s-v1i4.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
guess you could always ask them, pub/hotel email address is victoriasuddick@icloud.com :)
;)

[Jim McDougall]

Salaams All...This is an interesting article below. I note that the author makes reference to the Shotley Bridge swordmaking centre, however, I have seen no examples of Basket Hilts from that stable...Not counting the two on the outside Wall of the local Hotel; "The Crown and Crossed Swords". (Owned at the time by the sword makers family) Whilst that could indicate English Basket swords I have seen no evidence other than below.

http://www.oldswords.com/articles/The%20Earliest%20Scotish%20Basket%20Hilted%20Sword s-v1i4.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you Ibrahiim for this and the previous detail and links to the clearly complex history surrounding Scotland in these times. Your tenacious searching through these many sources is very much appreciated.

You have mentioned Shotley and Hounslow before a number of times, and often I have wondered if the 'crossed swords' had any connection to the arms used by Solingen using this symbol. Obviously the use of the familiar running wolf on some of the blades from these relocated German makers had to do with their Solingen roots.

As you note, there is no record of any basket hilt in specific connected to either to the earlier Hounslow location of mid 17th nor the later Shotley Bridge location . While it would seem possible that the Hounslow might have some connection, it seems that they were more aligned with hangers and in degree with the so called 'mortuary' semi baskets. Mostly, it was the blades they focused on. With the 'mortuaries' it seems these were primarily backswords (SE) but I have had one which interestingly did have ANDREA FERARA in the fuller. This is most interesting as in that time this name on blades was well known destined on broadswords to Scotland, and here is an English backsword with this blade!

Shotley, mostly associated with hangers as far as I know, except possibly some smallswords, is even less likely to have been involved with basket hilts as they seem to have catered more to civilian market while Hounslow itself had begin in a military context in large degree.

The English makers of the dragoon sword basket type hilts were in Birmingham primarily with Jeffries and Drury, though Harvey may have had some input. This came about mid 18th century, long after Shotley had ended. Prior to this and a good while earlier, military aligned basket hilts were made in garrison cities Edinburgh and Glasgow in larger instance, while some other locations are I believe considered.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

guess you could always ask them, pub/hotel email address is victoriasuddick@icloud.com :)
;)

Salaams kronckew ...I regret they are only the current proprietors of the restaurant... I have hoisted in most of the publications and web based details but nothing indicates a basket except on my last post....however something could turn up.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you Ibrahiim for this and the previous detail and links to the clearly complex history surrounding Scotland in these times. Your tenacious searching through these many sources is very much appreciated.

You have mentioned Shotley and Hounslow before a number of times, and often I have wondered if the 'crossed swords' had any connection to the arms used by Solingen using this symbol. Obviously the use of the familiar running wolf on some of the blades from these relocated German makers had to do with their Solingen roots.

As you note, there is no record of any basket hilt in specific connected to either to the earlier Hounslow location of mid 17th nor the later Shotley Bridge location . While it would seem possible that the Hounslow might have some connection, it seems that they were more aligned with hangers and in degree with the so called 'mortuary' semi baskets. Mostly, it was the blades they focused on. With the 'mortuaries' it seems these were primarily backswords (SE) but I have had one which interestingly did have ANDREA FERARA in the fuller. This is most interesting as in that time this name on blades was well known destined on broadswords to Scotland, and here is an English backsword with this blade!

Shotley, mostly associated with hangers as far as I know, except possibly some smallswords, is even less likely to have been involved with basket hilts as they seem to have catered more to civilian market while Hounslow itself had begin in a military context in large degree.

The English makers of the dragoon sword basket type hilts were in Birmingham primarily with Jeffries and Drury, though Harvey may have had some input. This came about mid 18th century, long after Shotley had ended. Prior to this and a good while earlier, military aligned basket hilts were made in garrison cities Edinburgh and Glasgow in larger instance, while some other locations are I believe considered.


Salaams Jim, Shotley Bridge is an interesting place historically having gone through the industrial revolution but having only retained its market town attributes as all of the heavy industry evapourated...including the sword makers...I think there is a small museum at the Swordmaking House a minutes walk from the Crown and Crossed Swords which tantalisingly carries two big display sign basket swords under a crown...The area is well connected to what would have been border reiver trade in the old days thus both these small factors could point to a Basket Sword situation ...though as you note there is as yet no evidence...and it may only be co incidence.

What I note is the huge gap between the Shotley production and today thus much has been destroyed and more has been forgotten. Hopefully a blade could turn up...Thank you for your post..:)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I add these website for interest...
http://swordscollection.blogspot.com/2012/02/another-broadsword-from-late-xviii.html
AND http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Basket-hilted_sword

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, outstanding note referring to the 'Border Reivers' of these northern regions! These are the unconventional groups that inhabited border regions and in essence did not claim allegiance nor favor to either English nor Scottish nationality. They were independent raiders whose raids and activity was not restricted to either side of these borders.
While Shotley swordsmiths had mostly removed to Birmingham it would not be surprising that local armourers would have been in place locally to keep the widely varied range of arms and armour serviceable.

It seems quite likely many variances in swords might derive from these contexts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim, outstanding note referring to the 'Border Reivers' of these northern regions! These are the unconventional groups that inhabited border regions and in essence did not claim allegiance nor favor to either English nor Scottish nationality. They were independent raiders whose raids and activity was not restricted to either side of these borders.
While Shotley swordsmiths had mostly removed to Birmingham it would not be surprising that local armourers would have been in place locally to keep the widely varied range of arms and armour serviceable.

It seems quite likely many variances in swords might derive from these contexts.

Salaams Jim, Whilst they appear to be mainly involved in relieving people of their flocks of sheep and cattle I understand their favourite weapon was the spear or rather the lance. I suspect they were very capable of borrowing their opponents weaponry(permanently !) :) on their travels but wondered how much they used basket hilts...

I am also fascinated as to the international stepping stones route that the basket hilt sword took in arriving in Scotland... and I hope I can add something in a moment on that subject...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ...In following up Sinclairs exploits in 1612 where he was ambushed on the way to Sweden. The Swedish(and Norwegian) sword situation may be worth consideration here as one of the regions that reflected basket hilts on to Scotland. Are we in fact looking at a Solingen basket sword below in the four sword group, second from the left?

Below;
1. The slightly fragmentary hilt from the Mary Rose for comparison...From the vessel that went down in 1545 !...in the Solent.
2. The battle scene at Kringen where Sinclair died.
3. A group of weapons including a Basket hilted backsword at a museum in Sweden.
4. Sinclairs Sword. Also an axe.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.