Ethics and Policies

[A. G. Maisey]

I wish to raise a matter that I would like the moderators and members of this Forum to consider.

I have noted a recent increase in threads that are started in this Forum by people known to be dealers or sellers of keris.

These threads are presented as "for your appreciation", "for comments", "to share" etc, etc, type threads, but in fact are thinly disguised advertisements that seek a free appraisal.

Once the thread is up for comment those of us who are able to comment have, I believe, the obligation to comment, as if we do not, inaccurate comment by others could mislead prospective buyers, either positively, or negatively.

However, there is a distinct danger here also, as it is often very, very difficult to accurately appraise any keris from photos. If the appraisal given, either by a single person with knowledge, or by group concensus, is a positive one, it will be used in promotion of the item to be offered for sale. If it is a negative appraisal, the item in question will be reworked and then offered for sale without the appraisal.

In effect, to a large degree I believe that this Forum has become a master class for dealers , as well as an educational facility for students and collectors of the keris.

I personally do not believe that this usage of the Forum by dealers is to the long term benefit of collectors and students of the keris.

Why?

Because a dealer must sell his stock.
If an item of stock is identified as unacceptable the dealer will rework that piece to make it acceptable, or will direct it into an area where he knows his deception will not be recognised.
The unknowledgeable collector will be taken advantage of by the unethical dealer.
Ultimately all of us will suffer.

Some years ago I recall discussion in the main Forum, before the Warung was hived off. This discussion was to the effect that it was dangerous to make too much information publicly available as this then provided a work plan or road map for those who wished to deceive.

We already have a ban on providing valuations.

We have a ban on discussion of items up for auction.

I have some difficulty in coming to terms with the fact that we are prepared to provide appraisals of items that are being offered for sale, or will be offered for sale.

Some of you will know that as a hobby, I deal in keris and I regularly offer a catalogue of keris that I have for sale.

Would it be acceptable for me to publish photos " for comment" of the items that I will include in an upcoming catalogue?

I would suggest that such an action would be totally unacceptable, unethical, and in fact a misuse of this Forum.

At the moment I cannot suggest a remedy for what I see as misuse of this Forum by sellers, to obtain free advertising and appraisals, but I do think that our moderators should consider this question, and that any members with opinions should make those opinions known.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Alan, I agree with you wholeheartedly!
On more than one occasion I have had words in an ad ring bells in my head... giving me a sense of deja vu. On checking my posts, I find my words had been 'lifted' verbatim. In some instances, my words were attributed to some other (loftier) entity.
Now you can understand my somewhat reluctance in being too forthcoming or elaborate.
(BTW... wrt another thread, I feel like I'm already part of IA:)... necessity has made me remember 'who's who' in the marketplace, be it eekPlay or others of its ilk... and the list keeps growing!:O)

Best,

[fearn]

Hi Alan,

What can I say? Value has a strong social component. For better or worse, it's also part of the story of a piece.

I would also suggest that it's inevitable that all of the keris that you now own will pass out of your hands, either because you sold them, gave them away as gifts, or ultimately, became part of your inheritance. Assuming none of them are destroyed, it is almost inevitable that anything you display on this site will eventually be sold, and their appearance on this site will be part of their provenance. It's unclear to me why it's totally unethical to display items that you hope to sell in the near future, but it's totally ethical to show them if you're not planning on selling them yet.

I'm also puzzled by why reworking is unethical too. If someone puts in some work to improve the quality of a keris (perhaps by dressing and staining it properly, fixing the fittings, and so forth), doesn't that increase its value? Obviously, fraud is possible in reworking, but that, too, can be uncovered on this site. For example, if someone sold me a piece with the pamor silk-screened on, I'd be happy to post a high resolution image of it, as an example of what to be careful of. Then again, I can be a little blunt.

Another way to look at it is to flip it: assume that there's a total ban on selling anything that's displayed on this site. Fewer items will be shown, and certainly some of the most avid collectors who regularly recycle their collections won't bother. Moreover, the items that do appear for sale will have little or no commentary. Is that a good thing? Not to me: I'd rather hear what everyone thinks. While it's not a perfect antidote to fraud, I suspect that multiple opinions do help people better evaluate what they're looking at.

Finally, I'd also gently suggest that one reason we may be seeing more sales is that there's a recession going on, and people's financial situations are changing quickly. Let's allow them to sell their collections if they must.

Best,

F

[Rick]

Alan,
This is currently under discussion by the Moderators; new rules are being written .

In the meantime .......

I sincerely hope that most of us are able to recognise a covert offer for what it really is when they see one . :mad:

Until the new rules are in place we must trust in common sense and do our homework .

If a keris is brought up 'for comment' feel free to express doubts backed up by solid argument .

It goes against, and insults the whole concept of the Warung when someone appears here solely to peddle their wares .

Thank you for bringing this to the attention of the forum; you've saved me a bit of trouble and also provided me with a couple of new ideas . :)

Rick

[David]

Well Alan, i know that you know that we know this is going on. Frankly we moderators have been considering this question for years. This is not a new problem. Obviously there is only so much to be done about it. It is very difficult to prove the intentions of the forum member when a keris is presented for comment. And certainly not every keris presented for comment is with the intention of sale. But for anyone paying close attention it should become obvious after a time which keris are and who the dealers are on this forum and i would caution every member to think twice about buying any keris that is presented in this covert and deceptive manner. Why? Well simply because if the dealer finds the need to sell his "product" in this deceptive manner then he is obviously already trying to hide something. And we all know how easy it is to deceive with keris, especially when our only means of assessment is a few photographs on the internet. New blades are aged to look old, composite pieces are assembled designed to appeal to specific markets, fresh carved ivory is aged and patina is added. Even the experts can be fooled at times. What hope does the beginner have or even those with a moderate knowledge of the subject? But over the years many of us have found straight forward dealers who we know we can trust. Ones that don't play games like this. So my best suggestion is buy from people you know and trust.
I would seriously suggest that members here do not make any purchases of keris that are presented to them in this deceitful manner. If you receive offers of sale in PMs i would ask that you reject them and contact the moderators immediately. The chances that you will miss out on a great deal in doing so is practically next to nil. Also please don't be drawn to the bait. Sure it's looks pretty on the computer screen and you think you have to have it. Don't contact people who are presenting keris in this manner to enquire about sale. That is their game and exactly what they want you to do. Be advised not to fall for it.
How we answer the call for comment on these keris is just as difficult. Many of our membership are honestly seeking opinions of their own keris that they have no intention of offering for sale. But i do believe that the dealers are indeed becoming very obvious here. Perhaps we can just politely respond "nice keris" to these offerings and move on. If they are obviously composites with aged pieces this can perhaps be subtly suggested by the more knowledgeable among us without giving any suggestions about how to make the deception less noticeable. Of course ultimately the old adage applies; Let the buyer beware.

[David]

Fearn i think that perhaps you are missing the point here. Certainly many collectors at some point in time sell off parts of their collections, either because they are trading up, need a little disposable cash or have just become bored with a particular item. I see nothing wrong with that and if such is the case we have the swap forum in which to facilitate those transactions. But this is first and foremost a forum for collectors to discuss and learn from one another through the sharing of information and, if we choose, images of our various collections. It is not a marketplace.
The problem we are discussing here is not collectors who sell parts off their collections. It is dealers who become members here for the sole purpose of selling keris. You may not be fully aware of them since keris is not you main interest of collection, but it is very clear to those of us who spend most of our time on this side of the forum boards and who mainly collect keris.
As for reworking keris, the question at hand is indeed a matter of fraud. When a dealer presents a composite keris in the forum with the hopes of attracting a buyer and makes no effort whatsoever to inform members what parts are new, used, aged or whatever the object is indeed to deceive through the act of omission. Sometimes when pressed for info the dealer will even go so far as to suggest something like "well, i don't know, but people have told me the blade is 17th century" when it is clear to knowledgeable members that it is more likely a contemporary aged piece. Properly staining a keris is not what we are talking about here or even fixing fittings. That is restoration. But putting a newly carved (but aged to look old) ivory hilt on and old blade and trying to pass it off as an original old hilt is a deception. Adding new fittings on to an old sheath and trying to pass that sheath off as original is a deception. Calling someone out on such a deception, especially based solely of photos, is not always all that easy.
Bottom line, if you are a collector who needs some extra cash take it to the swap. Don't post it first on the main forum trying to lure buyers. If you posted it last year and are now trying to sell it that is another issue. It is not the kind of sales that we are discussing here at the moment.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes David, you have identified the problem exactly:-

what can be done?

none of us have a crystal ball so that we can identify with certainty the keris presented "for comment" that are destined to offered in the immediate future for sale.

yes, our members here can, to a degree, protect themselves by using a little bit of caution, but there are many keris collectors in the world who do not belong to, and who very seldom look at our discussions. A lot of these people are being regularly taken advantage of by unethical dealers. I know this with certainty because not one week would pass without contact from somebody seeking an opinion on something he has just purchased, or is considering purchase of from a dealer somewhere on the other side of the world. Sometimes the sales blurb that goes with the keris offered for sale includes comments taken from Forum discussions.

Fearn, I can understand your point of view. There can be no argument that the commercial aspects of collection, including keris collection, are important. With the keris we are dealing with something that is to many of us an investment vehicle, so maybe it is perfectly legitimate to discuss value and the things that determine that value.

Maybe.

But as I understand it, this was not one of the prime objectives of our Keris Warung Kopi when it was set up. I believe that we were trying to create a place for open discussion and encouragement of study of the keris. Once the mighty $$$$ gets a foothold, it tends to pollute everything else.

I will admit, my views of this whole matter are a little slanted.

I started to buy keris 50 odd years ago, and for 40 odd years I have been buying from Indonesian dealers.

The volume that I buy effectively makes me a part of the Indonesian keris trade.

I have an intimate knowledge of the way in which this trade works.

I also have an interest in goldfish.

I makes me feel very uncomfortable when I see goldfish swimming in the same pond with sharks.

Particularly when the goldfish cannot see the sharks.

However, I do think that this matter is one that we should all express an opinion on, if we have one.

Any more opinions out there?

[Battara]

I hope this does not affect those of us collectors who ask for comments, and then at a later date decide to change our minds and sell the piece. :confused:

[A. G. Maisey]

I think David just clarified that issue, Battara.

[Naga Sasra]

Any more opinions out there?

Yes, but they have already been mentioned, however, in my simple mind we are not doing any present or future collector of Keris any favor's by the comment "nice piece" and leave it is that.

From what I have been able to see in past or present postings, the dealers (not the collector thinning out or making an effort to better a collection) are seeking approval and listing material for what they are about to list elsewhere. If we give them a nod and say "nice piece", that for them translate to a fine piece and will eventually be listed as such elsewhere.

Here my concern is for the beginning collector, who based on the listing will be buying a piece which may be an assembled piece not what it is advertised to be. In fact we should be aware of a potential future listing that include the phrase "as advertised in the Vikingsword Keris Forum" scary is it not.

I also concur, deal only with dealers that you trust, I also recognise the dealers are entitled to a cup of rice a day and they most likely do not see anything wrong in what they do, after all its just business as usual.

However, if we point out all faults as we see them, will the dealers keep coming back for more, perhaps not.

The simple solution would of cause be the dealers listing their pieces directly and strictly in the Swap Forum.

Just my opinion ;)

[Gavin Nugent]

Some very valid points and well written by all.

Some idle rambling from me in no particular order to share some insight to my own personal intents for all to better understand. This insight may reflect true for other people out there too, some though are just focused on the cold hard commercial aspect of it all and have no emotional connection to what goes through their hands.

I by default fall in to the category of "dealer" though I use the term loosely and dislike the word as that is what I do as a hobby not a full time business. I have a great day job that keeps me very busy and a young family that also keep me very busy too.

I established the commercial side of things to share much of what I found when looking Chinese arms and to support my collecting interests in Chinese weaponry, also to keep it all separate from the family monetary commitments.
This interest has grown a little in to other fields such as select Indian, Borneo, Burmese and other SEA items including the Painted keris I recently posted.
I posted the nice keris as I like to share and like many others here I like to share some of the more unusual pieces people might not often get a chance to see like a Sosun Patta, The Sadap I have, the painted Bali Keris, the recent Kampalin etc. In time my tastes may spread further rather than the sole focus on Chinese arms that once was.

Besides my fields of interest I have helped many here enhance their collections too and always with gratitude between each other. On a face to face interpersonal relationship I have also given away pieces to special people in my life even though I might only see them once every five to ten years...these are just a few aspects of what I do and why I do it.

Spread it around is one belief I have, besides gifts I have also offered trade and or monies for others more learned in some subjects to better describe items for some vendors who come to me. Some are happy to help, others never reply, some lovely individuals help because we help each other and like to share too.
One cannot just take take take; it has to be shared around. Some do well know I have some pieces that I would never part with for love or money either, some I will never publish on the net as they are the focus of study that may with a little guidance turn in to an article.

As I expressed to a good friend in Europe the other day who is also a member here and also to Lee some time back, I only offer pieces from my own collections for discussion, no linking to a page with items for sale, no water mark advertising on images etc. I did once ask about then sell a piece on the forum as it came in a group lot and curiosity got the better of me but I knew the bad taste it left in some people’s mouths and being a member of the community I will never do that again.
Sure one can never guarantee taste will never change and things won’t be sold on, that needs to be considered a given in today’s economic climate and trading up as mentioned above is another reason but for me it would only be a last resort to cater for a family disaster or similar.

I will enjoy reading further about this subject.

Best

Gav

[fearn]

Thanks for the clarification, David and Alan.

To a large degree I agree with your points, particularly that this is a discussion forum, and it (rightfully) annoys people to be used as part of what can be properly called a "social marketing" campaign to increase the value of a keris offered elsewhere.

Likewise, I agree that fraudulent reworking is reprehensible, as I implied in my last post.

We do, however, want to make sure that the solutions to these problems aren't worse than the problems. Banning all trade in discussed keris, for example, will move the trade elsewhere, where we cannot moderate it, and likewise it will make it difficult for someone who wants to offer a keris to a group of people who will provide it a good home.

One thing that would be useful, perhaps, is a sticky of what we mean by "nice keris." That would help with any non-expert who thinks that nice is a technical designation.

Best,

F

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Fearn, I agree that this is a difficult matter to address.

Its not just the marketing aspect of this issue, but the appraisals and opinions, either from a single knowledgeable individual, or from a group of people.

Going back a long time, maybe 6 or 7 years, an opinion I gave of a keris buda was edited and then used by the seller to extract a very high price from an unknowledgeable person. The editing consisted of removing my caveats. As it turned out the buyer bought a recent production that had been very artfully aged. It was something that could correctly be called a forgery, and this is a term I am very, very careful with in respect of keris.I forget if my opinion was given on this Forum, or whether I might have given it somewhere else, but I remember very clearly the result.

I think David has probably shown the way to address this situation, and if his guidelines are followed perhaps we will see an end to this objectionable practice of dealers obtaining opinions and appraisals and then using those in their sales pitch.

David's suggestion of a "nice keris" comment I read as a throwaway line --- just a meaningless comment that carries no weight at all. However, I do agree with both you and Naga Sastra that "nice keris" could easily become "highly commended by the knowledgeable members of Keris Warung Kopi". Maybe where there is a suspicion that something less than legitimate is happening, complete silence might be the answer.

Your suggestion of a definition for a "nice keris" is something that is absolutely impossible to provide.
There is a classic thread somewhere about what a "good keris" is. It went on forever, attracted an impossible number of posts, and eventually reached no conclusion.
The keris is totally unlike any other edged weapon and formulating standards so that we can say that something is either wonderful or worthless is way beyond my ability.

It is not at all difficult to appraise each individual component of a keris, but to provide the information to do this in a canned format is again not possible. There is simply far too great a body of knowledge required to put it all down on paper as a guide.

Perhaps the answer is to trust in the wisdom and vigilance of our moderators.

[Jussi M.]

At the moment I cannot suggest a remedy for what I see as misuse of this Forum by sellers, to obtain free advertising and appraisals, but I do think that our moderators should consider this question, and that any members with opinions should make those opinions known.

The core of this problem is money as it is ultimately money that is the driving force behind dealers wanting appraisals and commentary for purposes of advancing their sales. Thus what we are dealing with here is basically sales promotion or the preparation for a such activity. As long as there is need for promoting sales in the pool of dealers there will be splashes that reach the shores of this forum also, thus this thread. Rules cannot stop attempts - they will just become better disguised and thus enforcing the rules will become an ever harder and more time consuming process for the moderators which, of course, is not wanted.

Thus the solution is simple also: money.

I propose that those in command of the forum with sufficient expertise provide a "valuation" service for the dealers who want to have commentary on their stock. This service will cost the dealer just like any outsourcing does. The forum can use that income to either develop the forum, to put together a sort of a beginners-guide-to-kerisology-booklet that can be either ordered for a moderate cost as a PDF. Or, it can be uploaded freely. I am not saying that the forum should start making money, I am merely saying that there appears to be demand for something that is not yet fulfilled and as long as that demand is out there there will be masked attempts here also.

Vacuums do not stay vacuums for long in the nature.

At some point, someone will start this kind of a service as the demand is increasing. I personally think that the best solution for all would be to satisfy this demand for appraisals on a transparent way thus getting rid of all the negative implications that follow from the apparent "masked sales promotion" and preparation for such.

Maybe this is contrary to the nature of the forum. Then again it is arguable whether this kind of a service would be contrary to the interests this forum was based to service.

If something is unwanted but we "cannot get rid of it", why could we not rephrase the question to "how it can be made acceptable"?

Just thinking aloud.

PS. If this idea is not shot down immediately I also have a plan on how to execute it on a manner that does not mean excessive work nor is contrary to the ideals of the forum.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jussi, I'm going to ramble a bit here, so I would ask you to be patient with me.

In my misspent youth I had some sort of a distorted idea that one day I'd get selected in an Olympic Games team.
I was a fanatic cyclist. This fanaticism lasted a bit longer than my youth, but what I'm going to say here is relevant to that long ago time, so I'll just concentrate on that period.

At that time the Olympic Games was about equivalent to a Holy Crusade for amateur athletes. Runners, swimmers, wrestlers, cyclists, everybody who had an ounce of ambition and was an amateur sportsman had his --- or her --- eyes firmly fixed on the chance of a gold medal. If it wasn't going be a medal, well, selection in a Games team was almost as good. Just being there meant that you'd made it.

In those days Olympic athletes were all very much younger than they are today. You tended to think in terms of the Games by 22, and if you were a cyclist, you then went to Europe, rode as an independent for a couple of years, got into a professional team, and hey presto Jacques Anquetil's your uncle.

Well, that was the dream. Virtually nobody from the Land of Oz realised that dream back in the 1950's.

But we tried.

In those long ago days amateurs were amateurs.

Cyclists who wanted to ride the national selection races were told that if they took more than two weeks off work to train in the month preceeding the test races that they would automatically be disqualified. This was considered to be a professional action, and not in the spirit of amateur sport.

An Australian road champion who was selected to represent was thrown out of the Games team because it was discovered that as a 12 year old he had raced for sweepstakes with his mates around the houses where he lived. He appealed this dismissal and was grudgingly allowed back into the team.

But anyway, that was the spirit of the times. At least it was in Oz, and a few other countries.

The Eastern Block countries, notably East Germany can be credited with putting a stop to amateurism as we knew it then.When the blokes in white hats found that they were consistently getting beaten by the blokes in black hats, and those blokes in black hats were getting well paid to do the job, the white hats were taken off and thrown out the window, and amateur sportsmen were re-evaluated as political weapons. The Olympic Games became a battle ground of nations, rather than a shrine to the ideals of brotherly competition. Members of national teams became employees of the state, and were permitted to maximise monetary return for their sporting skills, subject to a few rules being followed.

This state of affairs reached its natural conclusion a few years ago when the Olympic Games, that shrine of purity to the human spirit was opened to professional sportsmen.

The Games are no longer about the striving of the individual, but are now a fully blown political battleground with the warriors supported by national budgets.

The Olympic Games are now unabashedly about power, money and political prestige --- not necessarily in that order.

Well, I guess this reflects the dominant attitude of almost everybody today. Its probably a natural outgrowth of the outdated system of continual economic growth and expansion that we all contribute to in one way or another.

I reckon the Baron must be spinning in his grave.

But I'm a bit of a dinosaur.
I add up with a pencil and paper; I shave with a straight razor; I split wood with an axe, and I use a bow saw, not a chain saw.
I also have an irrational yearning for the days when money was not equated to God, and people did things for other people simply because it made them feel good.

And that brings me to my point.

If somebody asks me for assistance, and I can give that assistance, I will give it.

As far as keris go I've given probably hundreds of free appraisals and opinions, and I've enjoyed doing it. Its something I do have a little bit of skill in, and I don't mind sharing that skill.

There is no way I could ever be a part of a cash-for-service arrangement involving keris appraisal.

However, that said --- and it took me long enough to say it --- I do not want to see this keris discussion group tainted with any of the commercial aspects of keris collecting. The primary reason I am here at all is to try to assist others in the study of the keris and its culture. In my opinion any part of the commercial aspect of keris collecting has no place at all here. There are plenty of other places for that.

In some respects I have never moved out of the 1950's. I like the idea of fellowship for the sake of fellowship, not fellowship for the sake of money. Its the old amateur ideals that I just can't get rid of.

Now I'll make a recommendation that could change your life:- sit down and watch the movie "Chariots of Fire".

[fearn]

Hi Alan,

Gotta love it when we're separated by a common language.

So far as I know, "nice keris" is a compliment, and it tends to be given more to long timers than to newbies. The sticky I had in mind was an explanation that "nice keris" has absolutely nothing to do with the value of the keris, as a caveat emptor.

[Jussi M.]

Well Alan,

I cannot but to agree with the ideals you present - as you know already - but that is not the question, the question is, and I quote myself: If something is unwanted but we "cannot get rid of it", why could we not rephrase the question to "how it can be made acceptable?"
The question then is whether we can accept commercialism on this site in any form or can we not. If the answer is that we cannot accept it then the solution is simple - everybody should act as you. - Those pieces that will be put onto the market cannot be shown nor talked in public on this forum. All attempts should be shot down as the there cannot be a blurry line of what is and what is not acceptable.

This means that the principle that this forum is all about the gathering and transfer of keris related knowledge is to be enforced ruthlessly. What I cannot see possible is to have a some sort of a middle ground. - It just does not work like that. Commercialism then either has to be banned completely or freed completely and let the public decide what is and is not acceptable. Everything in between is doomed to fail.

The question basically is then what is the reason for the forums existence?

When that is outlined on a clear and concise manner the rest is easy. There is no way that all opinions could be addressed satisfactorily as our motives for being here differ. A forum has to be something for somebody. It cannot be everything for everybody. The wider the audience wanted, the looser the rules have to be. The tighter the grip the smaller the audience that accepts such a firm control.

I think it would be best to address what is the reason for this forums existence and then make decisions based on that regarding the acceptance or banning of commercial elements.

I have nothing to add except reinstating that in my opinion there can be no middle ground. - Commercial elements are either OK´d 100% or banned 100%. Anything in between is doomed to fail as drawing the line would be extremely difficult and lead to complications on what it is and what is not OK .

Thanks,

J.

[Rick]

I take it that you all have read the pertinent posts in the Swap Forum rules .
These apply to outside the forum sales also .

I rarely comment on this but I do make the rules in the Warung . :D
That having been said here are a few ideas and comments :

1.
If any one of our members sees even a third hand quote from here used to sell a keris or any other weapon in any venue (even PM or email) without the express consent of the commenting member, members, or mentions the Warung in a sales pitch, that seller if a member here will be permamently banned .
Please notify the Moderators via PM ; be specific; have proof .

2.
I would like to float an idea here ; how about a 30 day time limit before a keris discussed here in the Warung may be offered for sale in Swap ?

3.
I would also suggest that those who endlessly offer these 'discussion' keris without taking any other part in the Warung should have their motives closely examined by the Staff .
If it is found that a member is posting keris in the Warung ONLY to sell then they will be banned .

We will not be used as a sales catalogue; ever .

Bottom line; if you are here only to sell keris put them in Swap; not here !

Comments would be greatly appreciated . :)

[David]

I have nothing to add except reinstating that in my opinion there can be no middle ground. - Commercial elements are either OK´d 100% or banned 100%. Anything in between is doomed to fail as drawing the line would be extremely difficult and lead to complications on what it is and what is not OK .
Jussi, commercial elements have always been banned from these forums, with the exception, of course, of the Swap Forum where commerce is permitted. It is plain and simple, cut and dry and has always been the way we work things here.
Like Alan, i am here to share knowledge and learn from others. What i know (or think i know) i am always willing to quite freely share. What i do not know i am always willing to listen to and learn. This is the mission, i believe, of this forum, to freely exchange thoughts and knowledge about keris and the culture of keris. I personally have no intention, desire or inclination to ever run an appraisal-for-hire aspect of this site and i seriously doubt that any other knowledgeable members will be interested in such a undertaking either. Besides all of the afore mentioned reasons why there is also the extremely practical one that you simply cannot give a truly accurate appraisal of a keris without examining the item firsthand. Photos are just not good enough to make definitive judgments of certain aspects of keris. If someone else wants to try to set up an internet site that provides this service then i say more power to them. I would personally take any assessment coming from such a site with one huge grain of salt.
I also must point out that the goal of this forum is not necessarily to fill the needs of the lowest common denominator of keris collectors in order to gain the largest membership possible. It is the free exchange of thoughts, ideas and knowledge of keris and keris culture between collectors of a like interest. It is to grow our understanding of the keris and the culture that supports it so that we might better grasp it's place in that society and in human history and to discuss what is happening in the world of crafting high-end art keris in present day. I do not see this as a place to appraise monetary value of keris, which in and of itself is both a tricky and highly subjective thing. So if you are a dealer whose sole purpose for being a member here is to present keris that are intended for sale then you are indeed in the wrong place. This does not mean that members who also sell keris are not welcome here. We have many who are regular, productive contributors who have never attempted to present keris for sale on this forum. And there are a few who have never even used the Swap Forum to sell an item other than to post a link to their sales site. They understand the purpose of this forum and show great respect for it and i think that in doing so they have also shown their high level of integrity and honesty as dealers, a very valuable commodity in my book. For some reason i trust a dealer more who isn't always trying to push their items on me like a sneaky used car salesman.
Rick has presented 3 additional guidelines to address this issue which i fully support. I would also add that if you do try to sell something in Swap after the 30 day waiting period that it should be clear that you can in no way, shape or form provide a link in your sales thread to the previous discussion on the forum. In other words, you cannot use the comments of other forum members to promote the sale of your keris unless you receive express permission from every single person who participated in that thread.

[Jussi M.]

Jussi, commercial elements have always been banned from these forums, with the exception, of course, of the Swap Forum where commerce is permitted. It is plain and simple, cut and dry and has always been the way we work things here.

If you ask for open discussion and opinions why don´t you welcome them?

Do we want it or not, most people here are more or less continuously on the look out for new additions to their collections. It would be for the benefit of the unexperienced collector to have some sort of reference that the new addition that he is considering is not a lemon but as a worthy an addition as can be judged from two dimensional pictures on the www.

Yes, for granted a wise collector buys the seller but given the nature of the keris it is many a times that even the most honest of sellers is selling something that he think is X only to find out (if it is found out) later that it actually was Y or Z. - Not all vendors have the grade and understanding of, say Mr. Maisey´s.

If I am buying a new addition to my watch collection and I am not 100% sure of what I am dealing with never mind who the seller, I will post pictures on the forums and ask for the opinion of the more seasoned collectors who are experts on the model in question.

Yes. Watches are nothing like the keris for a myriad of reasons, but the risks in acquiring them on the internet are not very different from each other.

Why cannot a collector ask for the opinion of a more seasoned collector outside the forum, well, of course there is nothing to stop him or her for doing that. Is it not how ever natural to ask something of this nature on the forum dedicated for the items in question?

I understand that opening the door for something like this might bring along unwanted side effects. It might however also ignite the motivation for the beginning collectors to seek for a deeper understanding that is the norm of most postings.

If we want this place to be a completely free zone of all having to do with commerce that is more than OK for me. I just voiced an alternative possibility, no biggie.

Thanks,

J

[fearn]

Hi David and Rick,

I think #1 and #2 and well-intentioned, and may well turn out to be draconian and unenforceable.

As all of you know, I'm not a seller or a much of a collector, so I'll use myself as an example: Suppose I post new something here, and ask where it's from. Someone says, "Nice keris. I think it's from Bali."

A week later, my fiancee finds out I bought it, and hits the roof, saying that we'd agreed to spend money on the house first, not on toys, and we don't have room for it anyway (this happens to be mostly true). I decide to sell it on eBay. "For sale, nice keris, probably from Bali. Starting bid US$40."

I will be banned if I didn't get permission to quote whoever it was.

Or I can lie and say it's an excellent keris from Java, US$200, and be okay???

And how does me having permission work, anyway? I have to email the moderator before I put up the item for sale? Or do I get banned first, and then have to defend myself by forwarding emails and hoping you believe that I didn't just write them myself?

At the very least, I would suggest putting in the rules something about the moderators having sole discretion about what to do to offenders. I would be happier if there was a procedure in place for dealing with potential offenders too, but that is a lot of work.

[Rick]

Hi David and Rick,

I think #1 and #2 and well-intentioned, and may well turn out to be draconian and unenforceable.

As all of you know, I'm not a seller or a much of a collector, so I'll use myself as an example: Suppose I post new something here, and ask where it's from. Someone says, "Nice keris from Bali."

A week later, my fiancee finds out I bought it, and hits the roof, saying that we'd agreed to spend the money on the house first, not on toys, and we don't have room for it anyway. I decide to sell it on eBay. "For sale, nice Bali keris. Starting bid US$40."

I will be banned.

Or I can lie and say it's an excellent keris from Java, US$200, and be okay???

At the very least, I would suggest putting in the rules something about the moderators having sole discretion about what to do to offenders.

Hi Fearn,
We can only try to control what happens in this forum and what happens to content use concerning this forum . :)

You would not be banned .

If you placed your hypothetical keris on ebay no one would ban you .
If you wanted to use forum comments the rules apply ; you must first get permission .

In the case of a simple 'nice Bali keris' no problems . :)

If you were to post a link to the ebay auction in Swap before the 30 days were over I'd feel concern .

Rick

[fearn]

Hi Rick,

I edited my comment while you were writing. Probably your post won't change, but check. Sorry about the cross-post, and feel free to delete this comment if you want.

[David]

If you ask for open discussion and opinions why don´t you welcome them?
Jussi all opinions are most certainly welcome. I did not making my reply post to stop the discussion. But you seem to be under the impression that the purpose of this forum and it's stance on commercial elements have not been clearly and concisely outlined already. My response to you is that we have always been clear about it. You are certainly welcome to suggest that we change the way we deal with this subject. That doesn't mean that you will find me in agreement.
Do we want it or not, most people here are more or less continuously on the look out for new additions to their collections. It would be for the benefit of the unexperienced collector to have some sort of reference that the new addition that he is considering is not a lemon but as a worthy an addition as can be judged from two dimensional pictures on the www.
If I am buying a new addition to my watch collection and I am not 100% sure of what I am dealing with never mind who the seller, I will post pictures on the forums and ask for the opinion of the more seasoned collectors who are experts on the model in question.
Yes. Watches are are not kerises, but the risks in acquiring them on the internet are not very different from each other. You would not believe how close the fakes and frankensteins are today to the "real deals".
And here is the problem with this, or at least one of them. No one here has any official credentials authorizing them to make appraisals of keris. From photo even someone as well versed as Mr. Maisey can, if pressed, make a judgment in error. So let's say you see a keris for sale somewhere and you want to know if it's the real deal. You post photos on this forum and either Mr. Maisey or someone else whose opinion you trust makes a public statement that the keris in question looks off for one reason or another and based on this information you then choose not to make the purchase. But perhaps they are in error and the seller, who can clearly monitor this forum sees this assessment. He then has a legal case with this forum for interfering with the sale of his keris and possibly slandering his reputation as a dealer. This is a liability that we just can't have on this forum.
Why cannot a collector ask for the opinion of a more seasoned collector outside the forum, well, of course there is nothing to stop him or her for doing that. Is it not how ever natural to ask something of this nature on the forum dedicated for the items in question?
It may seem natural for you to ask for such an assessment on the forum, but asking a member you trust privately, either by email or PM is the proper way to deal with this question. As Alan has already stated, he has done this countless times when asked. What i am sure he does not want to do is to make a public pronouncement on a keris that possibly opens him up to legal action by the potential seller.

[Jussi M.]

Well David,

I don´t see any point in continuing this talk this anymore really? :confused:
It is fruitless to try argument contra something that is cemented law.

Thanks,

J.

[David]

I think #1 and #2 and well-intentioned, and may well turn out to be draconian and unenforceable.
hmmm....Daconian....perhaps, unenforcable, certainly not.
I don't think you are completely understanding what Rick has suggested here. #1 is, of course, dependent upon the vigilance and cooperation of all our members. If you see someone using a quote you or someone else wrote on a thread to support the sale of their keris send us the prove of it. I know that i would not be happy if someone were using my assessment, given in the spirit of helping a collector better understand what his keris is, used as a sales pitch further down the line. Would you? :shrug:
The 30 day sales ban that Rick was suggesting was if you want to place the keris in our Swap Forum. We are not about to police the entire internet. It is not our place or intention. But as Rick stated, if you put it on eBay before the 30 days, don't post a link to the auction in the Swap Forum.
And how does me having permission work, anyway? I have to email the moderator before I put up the item for sale? Or do I get banned first, and then have to defend myself by forwarding emails and hoping you believe that I didn't just write them myself?
Well first off Fearn, we probably wouldn't know that you quoted someone without permission unless that person first complained to us. You get permission by asking for it, i would say probably through PM. If you want to play it safe i would save your PMs just in case someone who said yes at some point has a change of heart, but that seems like an unlikely scenerio.

[Rick]

At the very least, I would suggest putting in the rules something about the moderators having sole discretion about what to do to offenders.

Moderator's discretion has always been in practice here, Fearn . :)

[Sajen]

[QUOTE=Rick]

2.
I would like to float an idea here ; how about a 30 day time limit before a keris discussed here in the Warung may be offered for sale in Swap ?


Hello Rick,

I agree with you, Alan and David complete that posting keris for comments only by the reason to sell it isn't acceptable and that you and David have to find rules to anticipate this.
But with this 30 day rule I have my problems. I have bought not long ago a sword from Africa but I thought it's from Indonesia but I haven't be sure by this and give it to discussion. After it have been clear that it don't fit in my collection since I only collect Indonesian/Philippines I moved it direct to the swap forum for selling or swap. I don't have seen any bad by this.
I also sell things in e-bay but I am not a dealer, I thin out my collection when I want to buy something better or something I don't have and I have to do like this because I am not a rich man.

Regards,

Detlef

[Rick]

Hi Sajen, what we are discussing here is *only* for the Warung and the sale of keris . :)

30 days does not apply to the other forums (nor here for that matter yet). :)
The posting rules in Swap are there to read . :)

[fearn]

Fair enough. I definitely prefer to have policies spelled out a little more.

[asomotif]

Pfew !

Quite a bit of discussion going on here.
I did not know my "Dha thread" and sale on the swap had so much effect ;) :p (just kidding)

But seriously, It is quite clear why this thread started.
There are on occasion new members who only start threads for apprasion and than put them in the swap forum shortly after.
I have seen them come, but also see them go...

Maybe you could implement some system where you have to be an active member for a certain time before you are allowed to post items in the swap ?
These seekers of fortune probably won't have time and energy to actively join his forum without generating sales.

[A. G. Maisey]

I really like the way this discussion has developed.

It's not quite the way I thought it might run when I started the thread, and I am a little disappointed that more people have not let us hear their opinions, but the opinions that have been given I personally, value.

Fearn:-

I'm sorry for my misunderstanding of your intent in respect of David's "nice keris" comment.

I understood David's comment in one way, you understood it in another.

It can be quite difficult to transfer meaning and intent clearly and concisely in writing, not infrequently we miss a message that in face to face conversation would be very clear. For this reason I feel that a few extra words at the outset can avoid the need for additional words later. I'd be the first to admit that I tend to overdo this approach a little, but it is much easier and faster to write than it is to think.

I believe it was Mark Twain who apologised to friend :- " I'm sorry for writing such a long letter, but I didn't have time to write a short one."

The points you have made have merit, but I do think that David and Rick have provided the answers that will address the concerns that some of us have in respect of misuse of this Forum.

Jussi:-

Yes, you've identified the exact question that needs clarification:-

"The question basically is then what is the reason for the forums existence?"

I think that Rick and David have now provided this clarification, and its pretty much as I understand it myself.

But you have raised a question that I would like to comment on a little further, and that is the place of appraisal and valuation in this forum.

Appraisal has two meanings. It can mean to assess quality, or it can mean to assess value. In the case of an assessment of quality that is one of the reasons for the existence of this forum.

It is often a bit difficult to assess quality of a keris from photos, and speaking for myself, I often find that when I look at photos of a keris I am filling in details that are not clear from the photos , by reference to my knowledge of that type of keris or workmanship. This is a very defective way of giving an appraisal, but its the best we can do from photos, and I will usually add the caveat of " based upon what I think I can see in these photos".

But when we come to the assessment of value, the difficulties multiply many, many times.

Value is directly related to the price that is placed upon an object. It doesn't mean precisely the same thing as price, but when you get right down to it an appraisal of value is an answer to the question :-

"how much should I pay ( or ask) for this object?"

This answer depends upon a multitude of factors which can be split into specific segments, for example:- rareity, state of preservation, age, type, quality of workmanship, present geographical location, market bouyancy---etc, etc, etc.

In respect of a keris many of the factors within the segments relating to the physical qualities of a keris can only be adequately addressed if we have the keris in hand. An error made in assessment of age or origin of any component part of a keris could have a massive impact upon the value, and thus the price that can be reasonably paid for the keris. This might not matter much when we are talking about keris that are worth only a few hundred dollars, but when we start to look at higher level pieces an error in appraisal can result in a considerable loss to the seller (or buyer).

Geographic location of a keris is another important factor in affixing an estimate of a reasonable price.
Lets say I see an absolutely wonderful piece advertised by a UK dealer. As a collector I want that piece, and because of where it is I know that I cannot bargain for the same price as I would if I were in a street market in Indonesia. So I am prepared to pay what I consider to be a reasonable price from a UK dealer. This would be a totally unreasonable price in almost any other place on the planet, but because of where it is I need to adapt my standards, depending on how much I want it.

So if somebody asks how much something is worth, it really comes down to how much the buyer is prepared to pay, and that will vary according to circumstances, one of the circumstances being the location of the object.

As an extreme example of the application of this philosophy to collecting, I know one collector of keris and other weaponry who only buys from Ebay. He's got a massive collection. He uses sniping software and puts in an extremely low bid on everything that takes his fancy. Most of his bids fail, but when he wins he buys very, very cheap. I won't comment on the quality of his collection, but it is very, very big. And the thing is this:- this man has never paid a single penny more than he was prepared to pay for any item in his collection.

So, for me, appraisal of value, when that appraisal is based on photos, and most particularly when the appraisal is published for all the world to see is something that I simply would not do. It could damage my reputation immeasurably. But giving opinions to friends by private email is a completely different matter.

Rick :-

Re your proposals:-

1)--- agree

2)--- agree in principle, but I would prefer a longer wait period, perhaps 3 months

3)--- agree


David:-

I believe that your comments should have clarified any question as to the purpose of this Keris Warung Kopi, and I cannot disagree with anything that you have said.


I think we might be getting somewhere with this matter. Maybe it has already been settled, but before we set anything in concrete, could we wait a little while to give others who may have a point to make a chance to provide their opinions?

[Rick]

Absolutely , I would like to hear from everyone .

[Gustav]

About point one:

my thought is, if there are unethical dealers, there must be also unethical buyers. There is a saying: every human has his price, and these prices are different.

Other thing is, to be a policeman is not good for every character (even to be a teacher is not good for every character).

About point two:

Since Alan has experience with this subject, keris dealing, so I think his proposal (three months) is to be taken in earnest. It is a big difference.

(For me it is clear, there absolutely cannot be discussions about direct material value or appraisals. )

[David]

But with this 30 day rule I have my problems. I have bought not long ago a sword from Africa but I thought it's from Indonesia but I haven't be sure by this and give it to discussion. After it have been clear that it don't fit in my collection since I only collect Indonesian/Philippines I moved it direct to the swap forum for selling or swap. I don't have seen any bad by this.

Of course not Detlef, that is because you haven't done anything bad. There is currently no rule in place that says this is so. Rick simply put this idea out and asked for comments so we are discussing it. So your action was completely innocent. Unfortunately others members regularly do this as a method to sell their keris forcing us to consider this new rule. If there was such a rule in place you just wouldn't be able to post about your sale on the Swap Forum for 30 days. This would not keep you from selling it anyplace else, just on the forum site where you had just had an indepth thread with comments about the keris. I don't think that is all that unreasonable a request. After 30 days you are free to put it up in Swap if you haven't already sold it in one of the many other venues you could have sold it through in the meantime.

[David]

Maybe you could implement some system where you have to be an active member for a certain time before you are allowed to post items in the swap ?
These seekers of fortune probably won't have time and energy to actively join his forum without generating sales.
That is a good idea Willem, in fact it is one that has already been in discussion among the moderators group and has not been dismissed AFAIK.

[A. G. Maisey]

Asomotif, I really do like that "active member" suggestion.

Really.

The swap facility in this site is something very valuable for non-dealers, as I see it. In fact, I don't like the idea of anybody who is a dealer on any level being involved in it at all.

A while back I gave lengthy consideration to using this swap facility myself, but I decided that for me as an experienced dealer to contribute to the forum discussions, and at the same time offer things in the Swap Forum was much too close to being a conflict of interest situation, thus I have never placed any articles for sale in that Forum, and I think only once did I place a link there to my site.

I would like to see the Swap Forum kept solely for the use of collectors, and those of us who are dealers on any level, either a hobby dealer as in my case, or a full-time professional dealer as in some other cases, stay out of it, and let the pure collectors trade between themselves.

The "active member" rule might not be exactly what I would like, but it would go a long way towards cleaning up the content of the Swap Forum.

[Naga Sasra]

Rick,

As for your proposal's my comments go as follow:

1. Agree

2. Agree but would also like to see a 90 day period

3. Agree

As for the just added proposal "active member" I realize the good it would do, I am however concerned with my own status. Please define active?

Erik

[Spunjer]

Rick :-

Re your proposals:-

1)--- agree

2)--- agree in principle, but I would prefer a longer wait period, perhaps 3 months

3)--- agree




this. but make it 90 days per gustav

this should apply to other areas as well...

[Gavin Nugent]

I take it that you all have read the pertinent posts in the Swap Forum rules .
These apply to outside the forum sales also .

I rarely comment on this but I do make the rules in the Warung . :D
That having been said here are a few ideas and comments :

1.
If any one of our members sees even a third hand quote from here used to sell a keris or any other weapon in any venue (even PM or email) without the express consent of the commenting member, members, or mentions the Warung in a sales pitch, that seller if a member here will be permamently banned .
Please notify the Moderators via PM ; be specific; have proof .

2.
I would like to float an idea here ; how about a 30 day time limit before a keris discussed here in the Warung may be offered for sale in Swap ?

3.
I would also suggest that those who endlessly offer these 'discussion' keris without taking any other part in the Warung should have their motives closely examined by the Staff .
If it is found that a member is posting keris in the Warung ONLY to sell then they will be banned .

We will not be used as a sales catalogue; ever .

Bottom line; if you are here only to sell keris put them in Swap; not here !

Comments would be greatly appreciated . :)

Even for a seldom traveller on this side of the fence, this certainly sounds reasonable and yes, per concensus 90 days sounds better.

Gav

[Rick]

Rick,

As for your proposal's my comments go as follow:

1. Agree

2. Agree but would also like to see a 90 day period

3. Agree

As for the just added proposal "active member" I realize the good it would do, I am however concerned with my own status. Please define active?

Erik

Yes, we must define 'Active Member' Erik but I don't think you have to worry . ;) :)

Anyone want to offer criteria for discussion of what makes an active member ?

Also, I would like to re-state ; if implemented these rules would only apply to the Warung members and only to keris related selling.

[Jussi M.]

Anyone want to offer criteria for discussion of what makes an active member ?

A minimum of 150 posts of which ten have been initiated by the person and that for the most parts do not contain speed-posting to boost the post account. By speed-posting I mean postings consisting mainly of

:)
:mad:
:p
:shrug:
:cool:
:eek:
etc.

The number (150) may appear big at first but it is in the interest of both the potential buyer and seller to have had enough exposure to the unwritten "DOs & DO NOT´s" of the forum until he puts himself and his reputation at risk publicly. We all know one can loose his virginity only once and same goes for reputation within such a small pond which the keris collectors pond truly is.

If you want a high standard you must set the bar accordingly.

Thanks,

J.

[BluErf]

Whoa, this is a HOT subject! :)

Just as a caveat - I have no issues with dealers joining the forum, as long as their identity and intention is made clear to everyone. We all have trusted dealers whom we are friends with. Everything is above the board for these guys, and we appreciate that.

However, I am put off by dealers who disguise themselves as interested collectors, bearing ulterior motives. Must admit that I was the victim of such a character a few months back, here in Singapore. I was asked to visit the said person's home to look at his collection and share some opinions. That was a bad mistake, but it was entertaining how he twisted and turned his view on keris (from esoteric emphasis to cultural/history/art) to fit my views on keris-collecting. :) He also insisted on seeing my collection - which I firmly refused - because he wanted to take photos of my kerises (for what purpose I wonder :rolleyes: ). He even pretended to take down some notes of my comments on why his newly-made kerises were not 'correct'. It was also very funny to burst his hot air balloon on some of his "magical" kerises which could stand by themselves (I balanced more than a few of his "magical" and "non-magical" kerises in front of him).

Anyway, my encounter was funny because the person was neither sophisticated nor knowledgeable in keris; he made a fool of himself. But had it been some else who knows his stuff, it would have been a lot harder to call the bluff.

Drawing the analogy to the forum, there are some such disguised dealers who are easy to spot. Others may not be. Some really ask questions in such details that we would have thought they were one of us. Some dealers also 'don't cr*p where they eat', to put it crudely, using the forum only as a source of info and reference. These are the bad dealers that are hardest to uncover.

However, I agree that some form of new rules would be better than no rules, and those proposed by Rick are good. I just wonder who is going to keep tabs on the 90days rule since a lot of new threads could have come and go in that period.

How about this - we can also look at a peer rating system in which fellow forumnites vote whether a fellow member is a "positive contributing member", or a possible "dealer in disguise" (there can be other categories/levels). This could require some tinkering of the forum programming. Votes can be given by each certified positive contributing member for every thread/post put up by any forumnite (members can only cast 1 vote for each post, once). Voting is anonymous. Accumulating a number of votes in certain categories would earn the poster that positive contributor or dealer in disguise tag. To prevent the rating system from being abused as a "political weapon" by factions/cliques/groups (which I don't think there are), I propose that the votes are only visible to moderators who can choose to endorse or ignore the tag. If endorsed, the tag appears below the member's avatars in every of their post/thread. To combat the possibility of the DiDs creating new IDs all the time, new IDs may be given the "stranger" tag or something, just to raise everyone's alert. The tags can be renamed to be more politically correct, but I'm just throwing up ideas.

[Rick]

I know this forum software features a reputation points option .
I don't know if it can be turned on for only one forum . :shrug:
I have real concerns about enabling it due to possible abuse .

I also think (however attractive) the 90 day prohibition would involve a lot of Moderator work trying to enforce this timeline properly .

I think the New Member designation is a very good idea .
Using this feature we could control the amount of posts needed to become a full member . When the designation changes, the newly graduated member can sell keris on the site .

Keep 'em coming Gentlemen . :)

[Jussi M.]

In my experience and opinion there are only two ways to handle the €€€ question.

Commercialism either is completely acceptable and everything about it transparent or it either is completely unacceptable meaning that all violations despite how minimal against this principle must be met ruthlessly. Anything other in between these two opposing ends can and certainly will lead to problems and an ever increasing amount of innumerable rules followed by more rules. I hope that those in command choose the easy way out and set out a simple principle which against all action is judged upon instead of writing a book of laws and by-laws.


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w308/JCJM/The_Principle03.gif

What we need is a simple principle, common sense, transparency and equal treatment of everybody never mind you status, rank, age or post count. I do not propose the idea of peer ranking as it will put people in unequal situation and lead to politics that would be contrary to what this place is set to be for(?).

Thanks,

J.

[Rick]

I think we might be getting close Jussi .

I too would like to keep this as simple as possible, really ... :)

A couple or three bright line rules .

Thanks for your input .

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm pretty much booked up for today, and will not have time to comment or read any more posts until tomorrow, but one post in the above caught my attention immediately, the one by Jussi.

Jussi, I strongly agree with and support this philosophy you have tendered.

Without reservation.

[fearn]

I generally agree with Jussi.

The one thing I would add is that the rules need to include some information about how you are planning to enforce them. Your response to my hypothetical was a good one, because it showed how such rules would work in practice. This could probably be folded under the rubric of "transparency."

As for equality and transparency, that's good. I think it's also reasonable to ask people to make a minimum commitment, such as a certain number of posts, as part of joining a community of equals who can use the swap forum. Most communities have entrance requirements, and we're not banning them from posting elsewhere.

Best,

F

[Rick]

Thanks for your input Fearn . :)

I've contacted Lee to see if the software will allow certain functions for this forum only .

[TVV]

I am glad that Alan has brought this issue up. I have often thought about it myself, and it is quite complicated when it comes to enforcing strict rules, as the problem often comes down to original intent, and intent is a very difficult thing to determine without the ability to read minds.

Let me start by stating that I like the Swap Forum as part of this portal. It is definitely not the main reason I visit here, but I like the idea that if a member wishes to part with an item he or she no longer desires, the rest of us would get a chance at it. I believe in one or two instances, the items I bought through the Swap Forum had been discussed in the main discussion forums (but not immediately preceding their posting for sale).

With this said, I do not mind even those members, who are here solely as dealers. The reason is, as a collector I need dealers, and I actually like to have access to their items here as well.

What I do not like, however, is when an item is posted for discussion, without the poster acknowlidging his intention to sell. As discussed before, there should not be a problem when a regular collector decides to part with an item after receiving comments on it. The issue, if I understand correctly are the cases in which a dealer tries to disguise his real intentions only to abuse the collective knowledge in these forums.

Those cases leave a bad taste, because we feel deceived, and I often find myself unwilling to comment on certain items, as I suspect that the poster is just gathering info to help with a sale.

It would be great therefore that posters, who are contemplating the sale of the item they put up for discussion, simply specify so. Obviously, there will be exceptions, but I think it is common sense that if a poster regularly posts items for comments only to have a "change of heart" shortly thereafter, this would constitute a breach of the rules.

I also want to suggest another rule - since potential sellers would benefit from the knowledge others will share with them pertaining to their item, they should probably give back to the forum community. The simplest way to do this would be to list the item here, in the swap forum first, for at least a week. If it does not sell, then I would not mind them looking at other options, but I feel it is only fair to give a first chance to the other members here, as a token of gratitude for all the info received.

Best regards,
Teodor

[Rick]

Thank you Teodor; I agree with much of what you have said ; especially the idea of exclusive pre auction time here regarding kerises . :)

Speaking for myself, I would dislike to see 'keris for discussion(and quick sale)' posted in the Warung .

This is not what the Warung is about .
Our up front Dealer/Member/Contributors of many years standing all know that . :)

If one wishes to use the Warung for gathering information and, (after a decent amount of time) decides to part with the keris discussed then I have no problem with that .*

*Links to (or quotes from) the discussion (in any venue) will still have to be approved by authors of pertinent posts in that referenced thread .

[Jeff D]

Using Alan's sports analogy. I think they should have a "open" Olympics where not only professionals, but, also any performance enhancing agents found are allowed. Let anybody who wants to watch that, go right ahead. All will be on the same footing. They should continue the regular Olympics with the original values, where anyone found cheating should be banned for life with a penalty to the hosting nation so they put a real effort into preventing it from happening.
Likewise I would like to see a subforum of the swap. Here anyone who wants info on a for sale or a soon to be for sale item can post. Contributers who want to contribute real or fraudulent information can go for it. Anybody found using the regular forum for this activity should be banned to sword forum international for life.


My 2 cents.
Jeff

[Rick]

Thanks Jeff .... :shrug:


















I think . :confused: ;)

[kai]

I agree on a moratorium: 3 months seem ok to me; 1 month is a bit short. (Make it months from the day of posting - there will always be some who inadvertently mess up counts by a day or two...)

I believe any new rules should apply to all EAAF fora - fishing for information to promote sales is not limited to keris and I believe the same standards should apply to the whole community here. (I believe this has been the intention in setting up and maintaining this wonderful resource - please correct me if I got it wrong, Lee!)

As already pointed out, it's fairly easy to spot repeated commercial behavior on this site; however, I'd be more concerned with info gained here and (ab)used elsewhere (ebay, etc.). Thus, if any info gained here were to be utilized freely elsewhere, I'd still need to frame my answers here on the forum accordingly (not different from the current situation). IMHO the moratorium should apply to all venues. We would certainly miss some offending sales; however, I'm confident that repeated offenders will get caught by the community.

I'm not yet sure how to deal with honest change-of-heart situations as pointed out by Detlef. There are also newbies who would like to get info on inherited pieces or souvenirs. Some realize that collecting is not their thing and decide to sell off the piece under discussion (many just prefer a little cash or want to get rid of the tourist trinket but there are also those who realize that a valued family heirloom may be better cared for in a specialized collection and may even aid research). I'm not convinced that imposing the moratorium in those cases would be sensible.

How about another subforum dedicated to identification of unknown, weird, and possibly-for-sale pieces? Comments in such a subforum could be considered free to utilize for possible future sale and answers framed accordingly by those choosing to give advice. I could also envision that threads posted in any of the other fora could be moved to this special "quarantine section" once the thread starter has acquired permission from all contributors. Moreover, it would seem suitable to me to be able to move an identification thread over to the swap forum (shouldn't be noticeably more work for the moderators, I guess). This would also allow an exclusive offering in the swap forum before a seller decides to move on to other venues (if such a separate - possibly 1 week - moratorium is deemed preferable). IMHO it should also be possible to move an identification thread over to the more pertinent subforum if the owner decides to keep it in his collection (for the next 3 months) and would like to get more detailed discussion.

In short: In-depth discussion of pieces deemed to stay in the own collection in the major subfora (Ethnographic Weapons, Keris Warung Kopi, European Armoury), offers and trades in the Swap Forum, and a flexible Identification Resource to fill the gap in between.

BTW, I still feel that keris sundang (Moro kris) and tombak (and rencong, and badek, etc.) should be an integral part of the Keris Warung Kopi. Arguably, it would make much more sense to include all stuff from the SEA archipelago (Malay culture in a very wide sense) here. Yeah, just nagging... ;)

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Thanks for you comments Kai. I think some of it tends to get too complex and i am not sure that opening up other forums to deal with appraisals is really the way to go here. I know that all this talk get people worried about severe daconian rules, but i think that what Rick and i have in mind will in the end be the most simple solutions we can find to a rather complex issue.
Personally i am opposed to extending a moratorium on the sale of forum discussed items beyond the virtual walls of our little forum. As i mentioned before, i don't think it is our obligation or right to police the entire internet in these cases. My concerns are what goes on in our own backyard, the abuses that are happening right here. If someone decides to sell a keris on eBay even immediately after getting information from his thread on our forum that's fine with me as long as he does not quote any member's comments in his auction, make any allusion to his keris being "approved" or "validated" by our keris forum and he places no notice of his sale on eBay (or elsewhere) in our Swap Forum for at least 30 days.
Members who have an "honest change-of-heart" have numerous other venues to dispose of their unwanted keris other than our Swap Forum, ones that have a much larger audience than us as well. Detlef should feel no remorse for his actions because no such rule exists as of yet and he did not transgress in any way. But once a rule is in place however members will know differently. :)

[ward]

I do not post in the keris forum,but I do in the other forums. I am a dealer and a collector for many years, but I do not post items that I am going to sell in the discussion forums only items that are from my personal collection. The use of the forum as a catalog or as a sales advertisement has been happening with more frequencey the last few years. The result being that I do not respond to post very often any more. Why should I do a dealers research for him ?

[JeffS]

I'm not a frequent poster here but I greatly enjoy the site and am the "new collector" type discussed above. I am also a moderator on another forum so know well how difficult it is to enforce sweeping policies, particularly if there is a time component to them. I really appreciate the easy going helpful atmosphere of EAA and strongly support your desire to keep shills and exploitative activity away.

It occurs to me that the member base fanatically watches all of the internet accessible sources for ethnographic weapons and little goes on in that arena that members here won't observe. You could simply set a policy that members are not authorized to use EAA for appraisals for items slated for sale and that such activity will result in a ban. The member base will take care of monitoring and reporting suspected abuse. At least on the forum I moderate on, members are more than happy to report rule violations.

I would caution against setting up a policy with time limits. As others mentioned it is usually pretty easy to tell the difference between a dealer using the EAA as an appraisal resource from collector deciding to flip a piece. Suspected violators could be contacted via PM with a warning. If their behavior continues, then the ban is applied. Problem solved.

[A. G. Maisey]

There has been some good, solid input to this discussion.

Its great to see such a reaction on a topic which affects us all.

I endorse completely Rick's and David's declared intention to keep things simple.

I can understand David's stance that what happens outside the bounds of this site are not the concern of the people who regulate activity on this site. In fact, this was my own attitude at the outset of this discussion, however I am no longer certain that this attitude is the desireable one. It is certainly the most simple attitude to adopt, but I do have a problem with covert dealers extracting information to use in a sales pitch in another place.

Let me state up front that this would make not the slightest difference to me, because I do not buy in the same places that collectors buy. I have only ever bought two keris from Ebay , and both were keris that I had previously sold. I have never bought from the Swap Forum.

However, if a covert dealer extracts information by use of this Forum to assist his sales pitch, and thus the price realised, of an item he wishes to sell, he is in fact using the information supplied by collectors against those collectors.

I consider this to be unethical behaviour.

Ward has already pointed this out and said that it is the reason he no longer posts comment very often.

Think about this:-

all knowledge costs money and time to acquire

if a collector passes that knowledge on to somebody he regards as a fellow collector, he is giving that fellow collector a gift of his time, money, indeed of his life

if he passes the knowledge to a dealer who has posed as a collector in order to gain the knowledge, and who then uses that knowledge to increase the price of something he wishes to sell, then in my view, the dealer has stolen the knowledge from the collector; he has obtained the knowledge by deception.

in short:- the dealer has acted in an unethical fashion.

I believe that this Forum should attempt to assist its members by a policy of identifying unethical behaviour by dealers. I am not suggesting for one moment that such dealers should be identified openly. Nobody wants potential issues for litigation. But I am suggesting that unethical dealers should be denied the fellowship of this Forum. Keep them out.

Now the question is this:-

how do we identify a dealer?

to my mind the answer is simple:-

we ask

The relevant question could take a bit of thought to frame in an adequate fashion, but it could be done.

If a member states that he is not a dealer, and then demonstrates dealer-like behaviour he should be asked to explain, and if the explanation is inadequate, action should be taken against him.

Where a known dealer has acted in an unethical fashion that dealer should be asked to explain and if the explanation is unsatisfactory then action should taken against him.

All of this may sound complicated and possibly draconian, however in action it need not be. I believe that with thought, a simple administrative system could be put in place that would involve absolutely minimal work for our moderators and would return immeasureable benefits to our members.

On the other hand, if things continue as they have been, how many more collector/dealers like Ward, and I also fall into this category, will simply say:- "enough is enough, I'm not passing my knowledge along to other dealers". If this happens the pure collectors here will suffer great loss, because in general, dealers have access to more knowledge than people who do not deal.

PS--- I was about to post the above, and noted the post by Dizos. What he has written is very close to what is in my mind.

[kai]

Hello David,

i am not sure that opening up other forums to deal with appraisals is really the way to go here.
Just to clarify: the proposed Identification Forum was mainly intended for identification of "unknown" pieces - I think it would make sense to unite the combined knowledge of our members in a single dedicated subforum. For example, I'm not able to visit the European subforum often due to limited time and only check out threads which seem of interest; thus, I'd be unlikely to stumble over a Filipino dagger which may have been posted there for identification. For newcomers it's obviously quite tough to choose the "correct" forum to solicitate responses and also seasoned collectors have placed pieces in wrong fora. Of course, we can just shuffle threads around if needed - however, a dedicated subforum for identification seems to have advantages IMHO and would certainly be more user-friendly for new members.

Personally i am opposed to extending a moratorium on the sale of forum discussed items beyond the virtual walls of our little forum. As i mentioned before, i don't think it is our obligation or right to police the entire internet in these cases.
Well, we can't stop anyone selling anything. However, if there were a consensus that a self-imposed rule seems to be beneficial to our community, then it should be no problem to state that not following the rules is incompatible with membership here. As Dizos mentioned, nobody expects the moderators to "police" the internet; blatant breaches of conduct will be soon spotted by the community though.

My concerns are what goes on in our own backyard, the abuses that are happening right here. If someone decides to sell a keris on eBay even immediately after getting information from his thread on our forum that's fine with me as long as he does not quote any member's comments in his auction, make any allusion to his keris being "approved" or "validated" by our keris forum and he places no notice of his sale on eBay (or elsewhere) in our Swap Forum for at least 30 days.
The main problem with exploiting information gained here is that the information won't be supplied anymore and this affects the whole community adversely: It doesn't matter where the sale is taking place. If we wan't to promote communication and gaining knowledge, I believe we can't restrict our efforts to the Swap Forum only.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Dizos,

I would caution against setting up a policy with time limits. As others mentioned it is usually pretty easy to tell the difference between a dealer using the EAA as an appraisal resource from collector deciding to flip a piece. Suspected violators could be contacted via PM with a warning. If their behavior continues, then the ban is applied. Problem solved.
I agree that communication with a perceived offender may be preferable over applying strict rules carved in stone. Sometimes it may be more a matter of getting acquainted to the rules and ethics of our community rather than deliberate misconduct since we're coming from fairly diverse socio-cultural backgrounds.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Alan,

I can understand David's stance that what happens outside the bounds of this site are not the concern of the people who regulate activity on this site. In fact, this was my own attitude at the outset of this discussion, however I am no longer certain that this attitude is the desireable one. It is certainly the most simple attitude to adopt, but I do have a problem with covert dealers extracting information to use in a sales pitch in another place.
Yes, I agree that asking and communicating with members may help to minimize unwanted exploitation of the community.

Ward has already pointed this out and said that it is the reason he no longer posts comment very often.
Yes, and he's certainly not alone: There are several recent examples of threads which suffer from less-than-usual feedback obviously due to the perceived intention of fishing for information.

Regards,
Kai

[Naga Sasra]

A large part of the problem is how to identify sellers, and yet keep it simple Alan had a good suggestion: Just ask them!

I also think that perhaps it would be prudent to develop a line of pertinant questions which have to be answered as people register to join the forum, and with this perhaps stop potentially new members from abusing the rules.

As it is presently, all a new prospective member have to do is to select a username, password and email address.

Perhaps a format that include a form with questions to the prospective member is in order. One of those questions of cause would be, Are you a dealer? yes__ no__, Do you regularly deal in edged weapons? yes__ no__ , Are you a collector of edged weapons who only deal in order to enhance your own collection?yes__ no__, etc. etc. etc. etc.

It is my belief that prevention is a powerful tool, and if the questionere is molded correctly, a great deal of the existing problems could be avoided.

Just a suggestion :)

[Naga Sasra]

Since I am thinking out of the box, so to speak. I was also thinking even though I don't really know if this would be possible at all.

If there were a way to change the program, so after a prospective member have identified themselves as dealers give them a password that would only access the Swap Forum.

That would certainly assure the continued posting of material in the Swap Forum, and at the same time prevent the dealers from stealing listing materiel for use in other venues. :shrug:

[David]

Well let's try this. I would hope that a good number of the Warung membership is currently monitoring this thread, especially the dealers. Sooooo, if you regularly deal in keris and related edged weapons, step up to the plate and tell us straight out. Seriously, who is a dealer out there? Yes, i probably already know, but i'd like to here it from you. Even if dealing is just a part-time thing for you or a collector who regularly turns weapons around for profit, you should declare that. Now's the time to let it officially be know. :)

[Rick]

Thank you all and keep the ideas coming .
I have contacted Lee about the forum software's capabilities; when I have a better idea of what can be altered we will proceed .

We must remember; we are not discussing Vikingsword's Site policy for the other forums or members .

Just the Warung . :)

[Spunjer]

Well let's try this. I would hope that a good number of the Warung membership is currently monitoring this thread, especially the dealers. Sooooo, if you regularly deal in keris and related edged weapons, step up to the plate and tell us straight out. Seriously, who is a dealer out there? Yes, i probably already know, but i'd like to here it from you. Even if dealing is just a part-time thing for you or a collector who regularly turns weapons around for profit, you should declare that. Now's the time to let it officially be know. :)


david, i think you should start a new thread on this...


I do not post in the keris forum,but I do in the other forums. I am a dealer and a collector for many years, but I do not post items that I am going to sell in the discussion forums only items that are from my personal collection. The use of the forum as a catalog or as a sales advertisement has been happening with more frequencey the last few years. The result being that I do not respond to post very often any more. Why should I do a dealers research for him ?

BINGO!

[ward]

It is no secret that I am a dealer and never has been so I do not understand the Bingo.

[David]

It is no secret that I am a dealer and never has been so I do not understand the Bingo.
I don't want to speak for Ron, but i think the spirit of his "bingo" was a resounding agreement of what you have said, not an accusation. I believe he was responding more to the last few comments than your admission that you are a dealer. I am sure Ron will correct me if i am wrong. :)

[Spunjer]

i should've narrowed the quote. i was referring to the last sentence of your post :)

[Spunjer]

beat me by a few seconds, david. thanks.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, I deal.

Have done so for almost as long as I've collected keris --- 50 something years.

Since about 1977 I've dealt internationally; used to do it with letters and photos, now I do it with my website.

I think that most keris aligned people who frequent the E.E.W. site already know this.



If it is deemed desireable to identify those of us who deal, it would suggest that a group mailing go out to all members so that a data base can be established, and that all new members should be required to ID themselves as dealers if in fact they are.

Personally, I feel that it is not so much the fact that somebody deals that is what should be addressed, as the use of a specific posting for commercial purposes. Yes, possibly the membership should be made aware of who the dealers are, but more important they should be made aware of an item posted for comment that will be offered for sale in the near future.



We now have what I believe to be a good cross sectional representation of members opinions.

There has been a lot of very valid comment.

I would suggest that now we have a general direction, specific objectives of any changes in rules should be identified.

To my way of thinking there are two overall objectives:-

1) --- to identify all unethical dealers

2) --- to give the swap forum back to pure collectors


Perhaps we could now have some suggestions of objectives that could be considered by our moderators.

When the objectives have been agreed to by our moderators, then it will be possible to put in place a mechanism that will permit achievement of the identified objectives.

[A. G. Maisey]

This thread has drawn a lot of interest, and a number of people have come forward and stated an opinion.

It is my firm conviction that the management of this site will act to improve this facility and will put in place some revised policies in order to keep the character of the site as it was originally intended:- a place for collectors to exchange information and to learn.

Once those new policies are in place I am certain that management will not enter into any discussion on either the new policies or upon their application.

Once any new policies are in place there will be no further opportunity for comment.


At the present time we have a unique opportunity:-

we, the membership of this Forum, have been permitted to state our views in this matter, and to assist management in the formulation of policy.

I most sincerely advise that we do not let this opportunity pass.


The time has come for us to let management know what we want any changes in policy to do, in other words to state what we believe the objectives of change in policy should seek to achieve.


I have stated what I think these objectives should be.

Are my objectives adequate?

Or are they inadequate?

Do they need to be changed?

Do they need to be added to?


We cannot get to a new place unless we identify our destination.

The way to do that is to formulate a clear and achieveable objective.

Now is the time to do that.

Once management has taken its decision and acted it will be too late to change anything.

[Jeff D]

Apparently I was too cryptic before. Let me explain what I would like to see as this affects the entire board. I am not too familiar with the Keris forum, but have noticed the same behavior on the other forums with the same detrimental effect. It is clear some forumites don't mind being pumped for information, some do. A sub-forum where all the contributors know that the object is, or will be for sale would avoid any confusion and subsequent hard feelings. All who would like to contribute can, those who don't can avoid the threads. It should lessen the work load for the moderators as they will not have to be constantly policing the threads to warn, ban, lock, or delete the offending threads and members.

Anyone using the other forums for commercial purposes could simply be banned and their entire thread deleted. We can all help police the site, bring the offenders to the attention of a moderator, then ZAP, they and their thread are gone. I personally would like to see a one year statute of limitations on the object. It won't have to happen too often for the message to get through. We can then get back to the sharing of information as a group of like minded enthusiasts.

Thanks
Jeff

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your further input, Jeff.

I'm trying to encourage our members to move on from proposing remedies and identifying problems to the identification of what we wish to achieve, ie, objectives.

You have proposed something that could well be a useful and valid solution, but it is not an objective.

If we look at your proposals, perhaps these could be framed as objectives :-

1)--- that any items posted for comment and that the owner intends to offer for sale in the near future be clearly identified as such

2)--- that the use of the Forum for commercial purposes be banned.

Here we are discussing only those things that affect the keris forum:- Keris Warung Kopi; we cannot presume to attempt to enforce our views on the other Forums.

Once we establish what we wish to achieve we can then hope that the management of this Forum will put in place a mechanism that will will assist in the achievement of our identified objectives.

This mechanism could well incorporate your suggestions.

[BluErf]

...

Once those new policies are in place I am certain that management will not enter into any discussion on either the new policies or upon their application.

Once any new policies are in place there will be no further opportunity for comment.

...

Once management has taken its decision and acted it will be too late to change anything.

In my humble opinion, if some policies don't work as well as expected after implementation, or is even detrimental to the forum due to some unforeseen reasons, they should be subject to review. The only question is how they can be put up for review. I don't think any policy can be perfect from the start and stay relevant/unchanged over long periods.

[Rick]

I understand your concerns Kai Wee; the last thing we want to do is kill this place . ;) :)

Input please guys.

There are changes coming to Swap as well .

After the changes are in place if you have a problem you'll have to talk to a Moderator . :shrug:

This thread is it for input .

Rick

[A. G. Maisey]

I agree completely Kai Wee, however, after the present upcoming changes have been made, we're back to where we were before this discussion was opened up:- Forum policies are a matter for management, and no discussion will be entered into in public.

This discussion is unique, in that we have the opportunity to give our views to management and those views will be taken into consideration in the formulation of any new policies.

As is the case in any type of organisation, policy must be under continual review, and must be reframed as the environment changes, and again, as in any organisation, this is one of the duties of management.

Failure to maintain adequate policy can result in an orgainsation losing its viability. That is what our current discussion is about:- the maintenance of the relevance and viability of our facility for open discussion of the keris --- and management is listening to us.

Lets grab the opportunity with both hands and make the most of it.

[Rick]

What ?
No more input, suggestions ???
If you haven't already spoken please do . :)

[CourseEight]

Well, for my part, I use the swap section only occassionally and I sell some things on ebay, but I never ever post items I have any thought that I would sell at a later date. So I'm okay with the 150-posts-to-use-swap idea, the 3-month-hold on pieces idea, and the appropriate punishments for (non-innocent) abuses.

There seems to be some issue involving some people wanting the ability to ID things for resale, which I can understand. However, I think a public seperate forum might be overkill. Why not just have a Sticky with a list of members who are willing to receive inquires of this kind via PM? Moderators can add or remove members from the list at their request, and members can simply include their user names and area of specality. I know that, personally, as a relatively less experienced collector, I am aware of those members who know a great deal more than I do, but I am tentative to "bother" them with banal questions. Such a sticky might serve as an "open invitation" to younger members, and the members receiving these questions might even encourage them to post interesting pieces to the public forum. Of course, if it is an ID for resale, then that wouldn't be alllowed.

My $0.02

--Radleigh

[Andrew]

Interesting thread, gentlemen. It's caused me to actually stop contemplating my navel and think about something other than my day job for the first time in many moons.

[RSWORD]

This has been a most interesting thread and like Andrew states, it helps one take pause and give thought to what is being discussed. The thread title is Ethics and Policies. Two seperate things. There are many things in life that are legal but may not be ethical. Ethics are not necessarily written in stone. It is a personal code. What may be ethical to you and I may not be to someone else. It is all in how you are brought up, your culture and probably a few other things. I don't think you can create new rules and policies to try and manage people's ethics. In my opinion, one has to use common sense to do so. For example, eBay has some rules and policies to govern its "membership". Most is to cover legalities. Some are a bit more political in nature. But the number one rule is to use common sense when you buy from there. Caveat Emptor. I think the same can be applied to a forum such as this. What makes this a great forum in my opinion? Up until this point, it has been pretty much a free and open forum where collectors AND non-collectors can gather together to share knowledge. That seems to be the spirit of the forum. Knowledge is indeed a resource. There is a lot of collective experience within this forum. That experience has been gained over a lot of years and each user should utilize that experience how they see fit. Many members enjoy sharing their knowledge. Other members prefer to guard their knowledge carefully and only share it selectively. Both are fine. It is a personal choice. We must remember that you should never manage to the exception. It gets too complicated if you do that. The majority of posts are legitimate without further incidence. In the few times someone has taken knowledge from here and used it unscrupiously it is indeed unfortunate. I think a thread like this sheds light on the subject and helps remind us all to be careful with our resource, knowledge. Make this thread a sticky. But again, I suggest common sense can prevail here. If you feel suspicious or uncertain about the intentions of a poster, either don't share knowledge on the item or ask them what their intention is. If they are not forthright with their response then it is a good indication they may be up to no good and simply don't respond. We all know who the "regulars" are and those members have gained our confidence that if they have an item they are inquiring about we feel more free to share our knowledge and experience than with a new member. Hey, a small price for membership. We also have to remember we were all first time members at some point. We either jumped in by contributing to posts, or sharing pieces from our collections, or asking questions about certain items. I am personally quite thankful that I was welcomed in, that knowledge was shared and here 8 or 9 years later am still enjoying what I consider one of the best forums out there. Gentleman, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Let's just all use a little common sense and exercise a bit of Caveat Emptor when we have a post we just don't sense is legit.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you RSWORD for your thoughtful post.

You are, of course, correct, in that an individual may have his own standards for ethical behaviour, however, the meaning of the word "ethics" is much broader than a set of personal rules for personal conduct.

It is generally accepted that there are three schools of ethics:- Aristotlian, then the school grounded in the philosophies of Kant, and lastly, utilitarianism. For our purposes here, we can probably direct our focus to the principles of the school of utilitarianism, which hold that the guiding principle of conduct should be that which results in the greatest happiness or benefit for the greatest number of people.

Far from the concept of "ethics" being limited to personal standards, we will find that most, if not all professions have standards of ethics, the infringement of which can result in censure of a member of the profession by the profession itself, or can result in legal action being taken against that person who has acted in an unethical way.

Ethics are real, widely spread throughout our communities, and govern the behaviour of the members of those communities.

However, the standards which various codes of ethics espouse can vary from one community to another, and in that sense, ethics are not graven in stone, except insofar as each individual community is concerned:- that which is held to be unethical for one group of people may not be held to be unethical in a different community.

In this present discussion of policies and ethics, we are discussing the ethics which we as a group would like to see apply within the community of the Keris Warung Kopi, the keris discussion sub-forum of the Ethnographic Arms & Armour Forum.

When the necessary decisions have been taken in respect of what is to be considered ethical behaviour, and what is considered not to be ethical behaviour, then the policies to govern that behaviour will be formulated and put in place.

This is the way in which those two separate concepts of "ethics", and "policies" are related one unto the other.

We could think of this exercise in this way:- if this current discussion and the decisions and actions flowing from it were occurring in the corporate world, what we would be looking at would be an exercise in corporate governance. As I am sure we all understand, proper corporate governance is essential for the continued health of any organisation.

And that is exactly what we are attempting to ensure here:- the continued health of our little keris discussion group.

It is regretable that it has become necessary to raise this matter at all, however, if we look at the history of keris discussion in public forums, it will become clear that for some unfathomable reason the things that occur which are related to keris are not necessarily echoed in the discussions and occurrences which take place in discussion of other weapon types.

The keris presents a special case, and that was the base reason that keris discussion was hived off into a separate forum.

Those of us who regularly contribute to and monitor discussion taking place within the Keris Warung Kopi have become aware that behaviour of some of our contributors might be viewed as tending towards that which could be considered unethical.

The present discussion is an attempt to gauge the opinions of regular contributors to this sub-forum in respect of what standards of ethical behaviour should govern activity within the sub-forum. Hopefully, when this exercise has run its course, management of this site will implement policies which will result in an acceptable and uniform code of ethics being followed by members of the Keris Warung Kopi, which will result in the greatest happiness and benefit for the greatest number of members of this group of people.

In other words, the practical application of the ethical philosophy of utilitarianism.

[Rick]

I would suggest that any comments about the recently closed thread appear in this one .

[guwaya]

I would suggest that any comments about the recently closed thread appear in this one .

Hallo to the forum and especially do David and the moderator team.

I became shortly ago a new member of Vikingsword although following as a none-member guest sporadicly over the years. I still prefer to follow the forum as 'guwaya' until I possibly decide to open my identity.

I am interested in the keris already for decades and the reason why I waited that long for becoming a member is to search in the actually demonstrated action. I recognized over the time that the forum was more and more used by persons who have only two reasons to follow here.

1. They want to get easily informations for what they otherwise have to spend a lot of time and money - doing researches is not easy and it is expensive. This might be still ok. if there wouldn't be the second reason,
namely the aim to receive this informations to know if they could sell a piece for a higher sum or a lesser - the aim is not primarily the interest into the subjct ([I]kerisolog, but more to get informations about the quality of an item, an idea for a materal taxation.

I unfortunately have to say that the behaviour David recognized presently is to be watched more and more in recent times - also mebers act or acted in this way some time ago - discussing here an item first - getting a more negative reaction and then try to offer the item at Ebay but naturally without the information received at Warung Kopi - or the other way around - good feedback - high price offer.

This evolution is a very dissapointing for me as Warung Kopi would loose it original aim it was grounded for - the discussion from people who have a same interest, namely the kerisologi and not primarily the selling of items.

2. In recent times I also recognized that people follow the forum with the aim to bee seen in the collectors world as an EXPERT. They might think that they if often sending post which counts - whatever you write ("nice item"- sudah) and receive a high posting number would help them on this way (see. already 700 postings - must be a very active member at the vikingsword expert forum a.s.o.). But a real deeper going discussion about the theme kerisologi what under my view should be the essence of the forum they never follow. Its just the hunt to get a name, to be somebody in the kerisworld - a lie to themselves. Have a look how many selfproduced books are presently published at the market - sometimes really nice picture books but with no worthfull informations for real interested collectors - just comparing-books (look, this I have, mine is better a.s.o.).

And here I come to a point I think the moderator team has also to act as perons with a wider knowledge. How can it be, that books from Tammens or Kerner (both might forgive as the already passed away and cannot answer upon this critism) are handled as a reference literature. Does anybody know how they did their researches? Did they research or is it just their own unprooved thinking which they sell/sold.

If you take the triology from Tammens for example, in one of these books he has pictures of buginese blades attributed to the javanese tangguh system - this is a more or less bad joke but says something about the quality of researching. From whom did they receive their informations? Upon which basis?

The real informations are in the old books and essays in the old peridicals mostly in Dutch language from persons who had a real interest in serious information (and naturally to get with contacts to higher ranked persons in Solo, Yogya, Jakarta a.s.o. involved in the subject - but possibly difficult to get in contact with; also in visiting STSI a.s.o.).

But these are no good picture books - people have to read and it is easier to receive informations via picture books (this is ........ and this is ........) and unfortunately these writers in some decades will be handled as experts and the real ones (Solyom for example) will slowely be fogotten and the "market" will use new terms brought up by dealers ('Sumbawa Keris' - wonder when the first 'Tanimbar Keris' will be offered). If somebody is really interested into the theme then he has to read the old books or better essays in the different scientific periodical but this means to invest time.

I think this has to be stated and at the comments upon Davis thread is already to recognize who has more the sellers interest and who is more interested to follow the forum the way it was - I suppose - basically established for: the change of information for interested people in the same subject keris without any peronal profit thinking, but I am afraid in this times this basis might get lost and I also don't know how to stop it.

I think a reaction like David did is very usefull and is one big step in the direction to keep or bring back the forum to that it was created for - persons might be ashamed to try again to use the forum in that way!

All the best,
guwaya

[kai]

Welcome to the forum, Guwaya! (As a posting member ;) )

2. In recent times I also recognized that people follow the forum with the aim to bee seen in the collectors world as an EXPERT.
This seems to happen in about any human endeavor but I'm sure that the quality of the postings makes it very evident even to non-frequent lurkers where the knowledge among the membership resides. Having said that, I believe that our forum does benefit from all honest contributions (posting pics for comments, well thought-out questions, as well as sound answers) and I appreciate any effort for contributing here regardless wether someone is an interested newbie or an oldtimer. It's certainly worth to think twice before hitting the reply button; OTOH, I don't think we should raise the bar to high for contributions.


How can it be, that books from Tammens or Kerner (both might forgive as the already passed away and cannot answer upon this critism) are handled as a reference literature.
I believe that these books are not mentioned that often (on average - they have been referenced a few times lately). It's my impression that about half of the citations are actually suitable (referring to an illustration or mentioning these books when other/recent keris literature is discussed) while the rest of the citations are usually given in the context of "name games" (identifying pamor, etc.).


...and the real ones (Solyom for example) will slowely be fogotten...
Not here in the forum - this book is regularly cited as a very good starting point for folks interested in keris. And the recent English translation of Groneman's papers will make his early work more accessible.

Regards,
Kai

[guwaya]

"It's certainly worth to think twice before hitting the reply button; OTOH, I don't think we should raise the bar to high for contributions."

"Not here in the forum - this book is regularly cited as a very good starting point for folks interested in keris. And the recent English translation of Groneman's papers will make his early work more accessible."


THANK YOU FOR TEACHING ME . BESIDES, I STARTED WITH THE GRONEMAN - ESSAYS.


guwaya

[Rick]

"It's certainly worth to think twice before hitting the reply button; OTOH, I don't think we should raise the bar to high for contributions."

"Not here in the forum - this book is regularly cited as a very good starting point for folks interested in keris. And the recent English translation of Groneman's papers will make his early work more accessible."


THANK YOU FOR TEACHING ME . BESIDES, I STARTED WITH THE GRONEMAN - ESSAYS.


guwaya

Guwaya, are you annoyed about something Kai has said ? :confused:

[BluErf]

Dear Guwaya,

Welcome to the forum. We look forward to you sharing your knowledge with us. :)

[guwaya]

Guwaya, are you annoyed about something Kai has said ? :confused:


Yes Rick - I was - it is gone now after my little ironicle comment. It is ok. now and I don't want to make a wayang story out of it.

[guwaya]

Dear Guwaya,

Welcome to the forum. We look forward to you sharing your knowledge with us. :)



Dear BluErf,

Thank you and I hope I can.

[A. G. Maisey]

I tend to agree with the points made by Guwaya, in that it is true that people have joined and contribute to this discussion group for various reasons.

One such reason is the gaining of knowledge, be it for whatever purpose.

I doubt that anybody has joined and contributes in any attempt to be seen as "expert". I could perhaps be wrong in this opinion, but if there are reputation seekers amongst us, I would need to ask the question of exactly what base are they building their reputation on? An internet discussion group? If I wanted to build a big fat rep, I'd most certainly go about it in a very different way.

But there is another reason for people to belong to, and contribute to this Forum, and that is simply the motivation to spread knowledge to a wider group of people. In earlier days when the world was full of people who read books and magazines this type of person would have regularly published articles in magazines, and perhaps even produced a book or two. In this day and age of the short attention span and the two minute time grab, perhaps a more efficient way to reach people is through the currently more popular medium of the internet.

The problem of covert dealers who milk our membership for information that in future could be used to the membership's disadvantage is a real one, and one that I believe will soon be rectified. The problem is not dealers, but covert dealers and unethical use of information gained in a devious fashion. Any special interest group will contain people who deal --- car clubs, bicycle clubs, rifle clubs, knitting circles, garden clubs, quilting circles --- etc. etc, etc. When people come together because of a common interest it is inevitable that the people who supply the members of that group will also become a part of the group. These dealers are usually welcomed into the group because they are a source of knowledge and they can assist the membership of the group. Where things go bad is when the dealer begins to use the other members of the group as milk cows. Regrettably, this has been happening here.



The books by Tammens and Kerner have been mentioned.

Again I agree with Guwaya that these books contain flaws.

Martin Kerner's work is easy to criticise on some levels, however, he did make one very major contribution to the study of the keris. This contribution is seldom mentioned, and I believe is very rarely understood by people with an interest in the keris.

Why?

Simply because it requires a lot of mental effort for somebody with no understanding of statistics to gain any inkling at all of what Martin Kerner was writing about.

This work is Kerner's statistical analysis of early keris, and I believe that this work is what Martin Kerner will be remembered for.

Ing. Tammens writings also contain flaws, especially in respect of the illogical and utterly incorrect way in which he has used the Javanese tangguh system for his classifications --- as Guwaya has already pointed out.

However, none of us are perfect, and Ing Tammens did provide a very good common reference long before Insiklopedi hit the book stores --- and let us not be of the opinion that Insiklopedi, even though written by a Javanese gentleman and calling upon Javanese resources, is perfect. It is not. There is much incorrect information in this book, and where the information can be accepted as correct, it is correct only as according to one particular school of thought.

Dr. Groneman's writings have also received mention, and it is beyond doubt that his works have very considerable historical value, but again, there are imperfections in his reporting --- which is only to be expected:- we are all human, and mankind does err.

Guwaya mentions the "old books" as the correct and accurate sources for information. I have a very great number of these "old books". Most only date from the period 1900 to 1940. To my way of thinking, this makes them recent books. Not old at all. In these "old books" I find that once again there are variations in opinion, and it seems to me, that often the opinions presented come from a very narrow base of knowledge, even though that base may have been accepted at the time as "traditional".

Then we have the matter of exactly what information one seeks in respect of the keris.

Do we seek names of various types and attributes that will permit a system of classification to be formed?

Do we seek technical knowledge?

Do we seek socio/cultural information?

Exactly what type of information do we seek?

I would suggest that that which is accepted as correct in any of these fields of keris knowledge can be shown to have varied according to time and place, and that no universally acceptable and logically accurate information base has yet been found.

In such an environment, I most humbly suggest that all contributions to the ongoing investigation and discussion of the keris can be considered to have some value.

However, this discourse on motivations for belonging to our discussion group, and motivations in the publication of books is a deviation from the central red vein of this thread.

I have been hoping to see some more opinions in respect of policy changes desired by the membership of this discussion group. Not just comment on those things that some of us may not particularly like, but clearly defined objectives to be achieved by any changes in policy.

Any more input would be most welcome.

How about you, Guwaya?

You are clearly a man with great depth of knowledge in the field of keris study, hence we could be expected to value your opinion.

What would you like to see achieved by any upcoming changes in policy?

[David]

Very well put Alan, thank you. :)
These policy changes will be made very shortly, so now is the time to publicly put forth any ideas you might have on the subject.

[Rick]

Dear BluErf,

Thank you and I hope I can.

I'm sure you can and I look forward to reading them . :)

[guwaya]

I tend to agree with the points made by Guwaya, in that it is true that people have joined and contribute to this discussion group for various reasons.

One such reason is the gaining of knowledge, be it for whatever purpose.

I doubt that anybody has joined and contributes in any attempt to be seen as "expert". I could perhaps be wrong in this opinion, but if there are reputation seekers amongst us, I would need to ask the question of exactly what base are they building their reputation on? An internet discussion group? If I wanted to build a big fat rep, I'd most certainly go about it in a very different way.

But there is another reason for people to belong to, and contribute to this Forum, and that is simply the motivation to spread knowledge to a wider group of people. In earlier days when the world was full of people who read books and magazines this type of person would have regularly published articles in magazines, and perhaps even produced a book or two. In this day and age of the short attention span and the two minute time grab, perhaps a more efficient way to reach people is through the currently more popular medium of the internet.

The problem of covert dealers who milk our membership for information that in future could be used to the membership's disadvantage is a real one, and one that I believe will soon be rectified. The problem is not dealers, but covert dealers and unethical use of information gained in a devious fashion. Any special interest group will contain people who deal --- car clubs, bicycle clubs, rifle clubs, knitting circles, garden clubs, quilting circles --- etc. etc, etc. When people come together because of a common interest it is inevitable that the people who supply the members of that group will also become a part of the group. These dealers are usually welcomed into the group because they are a source of knowledge and they can assist the membership of the group. Where things go bad is when the dealer begins to use the other members of the group as milk cows. Regrettably, this has been happening here.



The books by Tammens and Kerner have been mentioned.

Again I agree with Guwaya that these books contain flaws.

Martin Kerner's work is easy to criticise on some levels, however, he did make one very major contribution to the study of the keris. This contribution is seldom mentioned, and I believe is very rarely understood by people with an interest in the keris.

Why?

Simply because it requires a lot of mental effort for somebody with no understanding of statistics to gain any inkling at all of what Martin Kerner was writing about.

This work is Kerner's statistical analysis of early keris, and I believe that this work is what Martin Kerner will be remembered for.

Ing. Tammens writings also contain flaws, especially in respect of the illogical and utterly incorrect way in which he has used the Javanese tangguh system for his classifications --- as Guwaya has already pointed out.

However, none of us are perfect, and Ing Tammens did provide a very good common reference long before Insiklopedi hit the book stores --- and let us not be of the opinion that Insiklopedi, even though written by a Javanese gentleman and calling upon Javanese resources, is perfect. It is not. There is much incorrect information in this book, and where the information can be accepted as correct, it is correct only as according to one particular school of thought.

Dr. Groneman's writings have also received mention, and it is beyond doubt that his works have very considerable historical value, but again, there are imperfections in his reporting --- which is only to be expected:- we are all human, and mankind does err.

Guwaya mentions the "old books" as the correct and accurate sources for information. I have a very great number of these "old books". Most only date from the period 1900 to 1940. To my way of thinking, this makes them recent books. Not old at all. In these "old books" I find that once again there are variations in opinion, and it seems to me, that often the opinions presented come from a very narrow base of knowledge, even though that base may have been accepted at the time as "traditional".

Then we have the matter of exactly what information one seeks in respect of the keris.

Do we seek names of various types and attributes that will permit a system of classification to be formed?

Do we seek technical knowledge?

Do we seek socio/cultural information?

Exactly what type of information do we seek?

I would suggest that that which is accepted as correct in any of these fields of keris knowledge can be shown to have varied according to time and place, and that no universally acceptable and logically accurate information base has yet been found.

In such an environment, I most humbly suggest that all contributions to the ongoing investigation and discussion of the keris can be considered to have some value.

However, this discourse on motivations for belonging to our discussion group, and motivations in the publication of books is a deviation from the central red vein of this thread.

I have been hoping to see some more opinions in respect of policy changes desired by the membership of this discussion group. Not just comment on those things that some of us may not particularly like, but clearly defined objectives to be achieved by any changes in policy.

Any more input would be most welcome.

How about you, Guwaya?

You are clearly a man with great depth of knowledge in the field of keris study, hence we could be expected to value your opinion.

What would you like to see achieved by any upcoming changes in policy?


What would you like to see achieved by any upcoming changes in policy?


Hello to the forum,

as feeling a little bit forced :) to react I try to give a quick answer.

But before I start I attach importance to the following:

1. I don't have anything against dealers - how ever big they might be as far as they act in an ethical consens. But I have something against dealers who don't!

2. It was never my aim to derigate the merit of Tammens or Kerner - they just had to hold their head for as a sample as there are so many other ugly ones.

To the statistic somewhen later as I don't have the script actually with me but if I remember right there is a big fault included.

I naturally know that nobody is perfect an we all make mistakes!

Now to the provocated :) statement to "what I would like to see achieved by upcomming changes in policy".

As you know I am a new member of this forum and not familar with the still presently existing policy - just with the actual discussed here. So my statement will be reduced upon this point and it will be more a short essay than - as whised - a definite proposal how to restrict those unethical behaviours of some members - as I already wrote before: me myself, I don't know! Hence the statement is just to see as a thought-provoking impulse and hopefully not too disapointing and boaring for the exceptions of some forum members.

Last but not least I please everybody to take into his considerations that English is not my mother-language.

The main point of my advisement is the ETHICAL AWARNESS AND BEHAVIOR of members using the forum under the aspect of using informtions received from the forum for personal advantages.

Under his view I distinguish 3 grups of sellers:

A) the ones who already have an ethic awarness;

B) the ones who don't have an ethic awarness as money is their highest god;

C) the collectors (and hobby sellers) who bought an item from which they don't know if it is good or not and give this to discuss to the forum. Receiving a negative feedback they try to sell the item with the purpose to receive their "lost" money back but without giving the at the forum received informations further to the potential buyers. Reffering to Alans terminolgy also could be said: they are not willing to pay the "kindergarten"-fee for their education.

The outcome of this:

- Group A is no problem as they have the right ethical awarness;

- Group B doesn't have an ethical awarness and will with the utmost probability not change their behaviour;

- Grup C includes members who it is essential to achieve. Their ethical behaviour is not lost but there is a danger that it will. Once adepted how easy it can be to cheat people the danger is great to glide into the behaviour of Group B.

So the assignment is to try to keep away these persons from gliding down into Group B and to sharpen their ethical awarness.

How can this be done? I also don't have a recipe for it. I just remain of the conviction that prohibitions and restrictions don't help. (The death penalty does not reduce the number of murders!).

I think the only way is the power of persuasion. It is impossible for me now and here to give definite practical proposals how to handle it, hence I have a problem how to fix changes into the upcomming policy.

I only see that the ethical code is the most important one (for me) which not to receive with restrictions. The ethical code has to be present all the time and hence has to stand as the BASIC PRINCIPLE at the beginning of a policy - before anything else.

Also the way David acted shortly ago is a way without restrictions to reach this aim - bikin orang malu - make people ashamed and they probably will not do it again and it is also a practical lesson for potential others.

But for this people have to watch and act like this (as David did) if they getting aware a wrong ethical behaviour and not contain oneself under the wrong aspect of betraying somebody.

The advantage is that the person who acted wrong has the possibilty to come back to the forum (the door is open). He probably will not act in this way again and for potential copycats it is a warning. Group B is anyway lost and with or without restriction they will find ways.

I am soory that I cannot make any definite proposal how to restrict those unethical behaviours of some members - but it is as it is.

Regards,

guwaya

[David]

Thanks Guawya, i think you make some good points and observations, perhaps the most important of which is the following.
I only see that the ethical code is the most important one (for me) which not to receive with restrictions. The ethical code has to be present all the time and hence has to stand as the BASIC PRINCIPLE at the beginning of a policy - before anything else.
Still, while i agree that the death penalty does not discourage murder (and i am not a proponent of it) i am still in favor of sticking convicted murders in jail for the rest of their lives (or at least until some DNA evidence proves their innocence). We must find a way to encourage and nurture ethical behavior, but we still cannot allow transgressors to take advantage of out tolerance and walk all over us. So in the end, like it or nor, new regulation is on the way. I am hoping that it will not be over-bearing and restrictive, but since, as you say, Group B is not likely to respond to our "Ethics by Example" methods we simply must create some new rules that make it more difficult for them to operate among us.
If you would like to learn more about what forum rules are already in place you will find "sticky" (meaning they don't move) threads at the top of each forum explain them. :)

[Rick]

[QUOTE=David]So in the end, like it or nor, new regulation is on the way. I am hoping that it will not be over-bearing and restrictive, but since, as you say, Group B is not likely to respond to our "Ethics by Example" methods we simply must create some new rules that make it more difficult for them to operate among us.[QUOTE]

How we deal with Group B. will fall under 'Moderator's Discretion' ; in other words; get caught and you are gone .

We sincerely hope that our Warung members will be pro-active in helping to maintain the standards we all strive for . :)

[Marcokeris]

[QUOTE=guwaya]What would you like to see achieved by any upcoming changes in policy?


.....How can this be done? I also don't have a recipe for it. I just remain of the conviction that prohibitions and restrictions don't help. (The death penalty does not reduce the number of murders!).


:)

[David]

.....How can this be done? I also don't have a recipe for it. I just remain of the conviction that prohibitions and restrictions don't help. (The death penalty does not reduce the number of murders!).
Yes Marco, i have already agreed with this....BUT you also cannot let thr "murders" run free in your society either so some kind of restrictions are unavoidable to protect the rest of the community. :shrug:

[A. G. Maisey]

What would you like to see achieved by any upcoming changes in policy?

My question above seems to have been misunderstood.

I was not asking for solutions, or ways in which to achieve some outcome or another, but only what we would like that outcome to be.

The means by which it might be achieved remains the responsibility of site management.

As an example, my wife could ask me:-

"what would you like to eat for dinner?"

my answer could be:-

"chickpea curry and rice"

how that chickpea curry and rice finds its way to the table in front of me is not my problem :- that problem of producing chickpea curry and rice is exclusively the province of my wife.

Similarly with this matter currently before us, we do not need to suggest the ways in which outcomes might be achieved, all we need to do is to suggest what we would like to see achieved. Site management will provide the means by which the outcomes may be achieved.

Guwaya:-

To the statistic somewhen later as I don't have the script actually with me but if I remember right there is a big fault included.

Do you mean Martin Kerner's statistical analysis contains error?

I could not find that error. I would be very grateful if when you have the text of his work at hand, you could direct me to the erroneous section.

However, even though his actual statistical work may be accurate, his conclusions are less than adequate, most particularly his conclusions drawn from a complete misunderstanding of both cultural and technological bases.

[drdavid]

This is an important thread and one which should enhance the value of the warung. I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of promoting ethical behaviour and as Alan Maisey has said using the utilitarian approach is probably the most functional in this circumstance. Promoting ethical behaviour is one thing, having all the members of the warung do so is another.

If I might offer a few thoughts .
In the code of conduct points #5 Do not engage in any commercially oriented behavior and #7 Behave in a respectful manner towards other members, and their opinions are particularly pertinent in this discussion. Point #5 is fairly obvious, point #7 is asking us not to treat our fellow warung members badly, that includes deceiving them as to the true purpose of our questions, and using their information for our own commercial gain without their express permission. I think it might be a good idea that all new members (and quite possibly all existing members) be asked to confirm that they have read and accept the code of conduct of the warung before being allowed to post. Secondly I think that a moratorium period between being accepted as a member and being allowed to post (2-4 weeks) might disuade opportunistic behaviour. Finally I believe any changes decided on as a result of this thread should be made to allow the warung to improve its role as an educational and sharing group and enhance the ability of the moderators to avoid exploitation of the group.
David

[David]

I think it might be a good idea that all new members (and quite possibly all existing members) be asked to confirm that they have read and accept the code of conduct of the warung before being allowed to post.
An excellent idea David. :)

[Naga Sasra]

Dear Forum Members,

As I stated back in post # 62, I believe any change of the forum rules must start at the registration level. A carefully written questionere followed by a statement and a simple check on either I agree or I disagree to the forum rules, will go a long way dealing with the Group B potential members.

This would also allow the moderators to act swiftly in the event the rules are violated. ;)

But I will of cause leave any ruling to our very capable moderators, and please consider this just a suggestion. :)

[David]

But I will of cause leave any ruling to our very capable moderators, and please consider this just a suggestion. :)
Eric, your suggestions are always welcome. :)

[guwaya]

Thanks Guawya, i think you make some good points and observations, perhaps the most important of which is the following.

Still, while i agree that the death penalty does not discourage murder (and i am not a proponent of it) i am still in favor of sticking convicted murders in jail for the rest of their lives (or at least until some DNA evidence proves their innocence). We must find a way to encourage and nurture ethical behavior, but we still cannot allow transgressors to take advantage of out tolerance and walk all over us. So in the end, like it or nor, new regulation is on the way. I am hoping that it will not be over-bearing and restrictive, but since, as you say, Group B is not likely to respond to our "Ethics by Example" methods we simply must create some new rules that make it more difficult for them to operate among us.
If you would like to learn more about what forum rules are already in place you will find "sticky" (meaning they don't move) threads at the top of each forum explain them. :)


What a lot of feebacks - never thought!
I aggree with you David and it seems that I have to be more careful in the choice of my words or formulatings I use - but sometimes I like to overstretch formulations to shorten the way.

Naturally offences have to have consistencies and in the case of my so-called group B I follow Rick : "get caught and you are gone."

My sampe with the death penalty is more to see under the aspect: 'bad boys will not become good boys' through laws and that more important is the promotion of ethical behaviour and as a practical appliance I only can support drdavid's made proposals (see: #100).

Finally I would like to add a citate made by Rick:
"We sincerely hope that our Warung members will be pro-active in helping to maintain the standards we all strive for . " :)

guwaya

[guwaya]

[/QUOTE]

Alan :

Do you mean Martin Kerner's statistical analysis contains error?

I could not find that error. I would be very grateful if when you have the text of his work at hand, you could direct me to the erroneous section.


I definitely will do - it will last - but you will get it.

guwaya

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Guwaya.

Please bear in mind:-

I am talking about only the statistical work, not the conclusions that Martin Kerner drew from that work.

I am not a mathematician, so I had Martin Kerner's compilations and calculations reviewed by a mathematician some years ago, and it was given a clean bill of health by this person. In fact, I would have been surprised if his calculations had been incorrect, as I understand that in his professional life he was either a statistician or mathematician who had been in charge of the Swiss govt. organisation responsible for Swiss weights and measures.

However, I will welcome any identification of error that you can point out in Martin Kerner's statistical work, as in my opinion this analysis is too important to be tainted by error, and your identification of this error will permit us to carry out the necessary corrections.

[Gavin Nugent]

A questiona about the future,

As I have noted in an earlier entry I deal.
How would it be clearly proposed that if I for example presented a kris for comment and discussion and then found something more personal to me and wished to sell this Kris to buy what I desired more....By what approach would be considered suitable by staff to sell this Kris now? Would if be in the form of a public announcement or a case of tough love mate, wait the 3 months or be booted? Or would it be recommended that I don't show and tell Keris at all so the motions do not have to be actioned thus depriving the forum of somethings that may never be seen otherwise???

Gav

[David]

How would it be clearly proposed that if I for example presented a kris for comment and discussion and then found something more personal to me and wished to sell this Kris to buy what I desired more....By what approach would be considered suitable by staff to sell this Kris now? Would if be in the form of a public announcement or a case of tough love mate, wait the 3 months or be booted? Or would it be recommended that I don't show and tell Keris at all so the motions do not have to be actioned thus depriving the forum of somethings that may never be seen otherwise???
We are still working out the details Gav, but first of all, the moratorium on sale will only apply to the Swap forum. We cannot keep you from selling your keris on your website, eBay or anywhere else. You won't be able to make a link to your sale in the Swap, but other venues of sale will remain open to you.
We can and will ask that you don't use statements made by members here to support your sale at these other sites without the express permission of those members.
I also doubt that the time frame will be anywhere near as long as 90 days.
I think we will ask that if you do put something up for sale somewhere that has been discussed on the forum that you alert the moderators first so that we can lock that thread since we cannot have discussion of items that are currently up for sale.

[Rick]

Gav,
We will most likely have a separate forum for keris sales *only* in The Warung section of this site .

If you list a keris there you will agree to a certain amount of exclusive time (10 days ? currently undecided) before you may list it elsewhere . :)

We are also likely to revamp the dealer links page . :)

As has been mentioned before there will be some changes coming to Swap for the other forums as well .

[Gavin Nugent]

I also doubt that the time frame will be anywhere near as long as 90 days.
I think we will ask that if you do put something up for sale somewhere that has been discussed on the forum that you alert the moderators first so that we can lock that thread since we cannot have discussion of items that are currently up for sale.

Thank you David, thank you Rick.

A quick question as I cannot see it in the sticky, the question of "for sale" items not being discussed. I thought this was the case but I can only see reference to live auctions noted in the sticky, can you point me to the straight "For sale" quotes.

Thanks

Gav

Edit; I have read the whole sticky again and I see the second last post by Lee mentions it very quickly, perhaps it can be more clearly noted, I am sure moderators can edit any post from any time.

[Rick]

We're working on that Gav, the devil is in the details .
In the meantime I advise all to carefully read the thread in Swap .

Dr Jones has Swap changes of his own in mind; I am not privy to them at this point . :shrug:

Until then; business as usual; Staff will be taking notes though . ;) :D









We have been all along . ;)

[guwaya]

Dear Forum Members,

As I stated back in post # 62, I believe any change of the forum rules must start at the registration level. A carefully written questionere followed by a statement and a simple check on either I agree or I disagree to the forum rules, will go a long way dealing with the Group B potential members.

This would also allow the moderators to act swiftly in the event the rules are violated. ;)

But I will of cause leave any ruling to our very capable moderators, and please consider this just a suggestion. :)


Hello to the Forum,

As I just saw that member brekele is offering a formerly here presentet keris sundang parallel at the swap forum and at ebay - there two other keris with less informations - I would like to support the here made proposals from Naga Sasra, as I also think it has to start with the registration process.

I also think it would be a good ides to make a brief describing of someone's interests in following the forum compulsive - together with the from Naga Sasra proposed questionaries. But this also Naga Sasra already stated.

Anyway - this practise would mean to invest some time in the beginning, a kind of giving and not just taking.

[Paul Duffy]

I've been reading this thread with great interest.I am a keris collector,not a dealer although I am mindful of values and asking prices.
I agree with the words in #5,"do not engage in commercially orientated behavior" and 7 'behave in a respectful manner towards other members and their opinions".

I have been collecting antique arms edged weapons for many years,even before the internet and ebay.These are wonderful tools,eg this site exists and is used.However I agree with Alan Maisey's comments on identifying and buying items from internet photos.I don't,and I've read many comments and complaints in magazines and websites from people who are dissatisfied after buying off the net.

In a perfect world we wouldn't be concerned about "covert dealers" etc,but it's not a perfect world.In past years I've believed stories about "rare finds" and provenance,bought something, only to find out later,sometimes several years later that the stories weren't true.In response to queries to dealers I've been told that"Oh,I believed him".

As to options on policy changes:
1 I agree that dealers should be open and transperent,and presume this would be at the initial registration process.Then if there is a problem,their access can be blocked,and perhaps the Forum could have a list of delinquent members.

2Dealers could lodge a deposit which could be forfeited.

3 The Forum could endeavour to organise a return & refund system.Although I appreciate this would be very difficult due to the international nature of the Forum and it's members.

The Forum is successful,it does have a good reputation.I've thought about how the international auction houses build and maintain reputations.Good quality catalogues electronic and paper,eg Herman Historica,who sometimes list keris,Fischers in Luzern,Sothebies & Christies,Bonhams etc.These houses also have carefully set out terms & conditions which include a right of return and refund.Of course they charge fees to the vendor and purchaser.Can similar terms be applied here?

There has been embarasment when auction house have been "outed",and this will affect their business.
This may be difficult due to the international character of the internet,as an item can be listed anywhere in the world,and be available instantly to the world,without being inspected by a representative of the Forum.

Does the Forum want to accept the responsibility of being a "dealer",probably not.
Does this lead to the conclusion that we as members have to be "self regulating", yes I think it does.

I joined to learn,and gather info.The photos and illustrations are very helpful,so are the commentaries.I acknowledge that it is up to me to accept the quality or value of comments.

I hope that the Forum will continue to benefit pure collectors.

[Rick]

Hi Paul.
This site has no interest in becoming commercially involved in any internet (or otherwise) sales other than offering a free Swap Forum to members .

Everyone needs to read the disclaimer and rules there before participating .




Okay, we sell T shirts now and then at cost ; but that's it . ;) :D

[Bill M]

I wish I had seen this thread earlier before crossing a few lines. However that are what, about 72 posts on three pages? Many have conflicting opinions and ideas.

I appreciate several of the admins trying to keep each of us in line, even when this line is a bit muddy. But the main points are very clear!

I am a collector of artifacts from many cultures.

I have never sold, nor intending to EVER sell any of my Indonesian artifacts!

I do not have any special knowledge about the finer points, dha, tangguh, pamor, dapor, etc. I like to learn and solicit opinions about symbolism and the mechanical techniques in the creating of Keris. If I do not understand a remark, I will respectfully ask for clarification. I have not the slightest in arguing.

My personal bent is to walk away from arguments and find interest somewhere else. My concept is that being "against" someone or concept is as close as you can get! Think the word "against." It is about as close as you can be!

My interest is in the symbolism, the sociology, the reason behind the Keris, in this effect, I am not even trying to act like a Javanese connoisseur. In Java they can do as they want privacy. Hide the blade. Whatever.

My keris are now American, no longer bound by Javanese rules. I will display the entire blade and ask for opinions. I feel that both myself and others can benefit from these images, and I want to learn.

I have known some fine teachers on the Forum. Fine dealers. I will do my very best not to expose them as their privacy demands for themselves and their wares.

I am a guest in this Home. I am trying to sift few the rules and lines that cannot be crossed. As a guest, I firmly want to respect the Forum rules and ethics.

I ask for any PM messages if I am in the slightest area outside the rules. I have read and appreciated PM comments to me and I am trying to live by them.