Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ?

[M ELEY]

Here it is. Well, now you can see why I hate posting pics. :mad: First, two hours of photos too big to download. With editing, thought I solved problem, but ended up with this. AQnyway, will try to upload more that can actually be seen!

[fernando]

Him Mark,
You don't need to exhaust yourself, trying to tame the beast.
Jst email the pictures to me (for one) as they are, and i will be glad to resize and post them on your behalf.
Fernando

[celtan]

Hi Eley,

Why don't you simply open a free account on Photobucket.com, and then simply copy/paste the image code or image thumb at the end of your post?

It saves website space and provides a large image.

BTW, Jim'bo ist ein expert in espadas anchas...

Best to ye' et Nando

M


Here it is. Well, now you can see why I hate posting pics. :mad: First, two hours of photos too big to download. With editing, thought I solved problem, but ended up with this. AQnyway, will try to upload more that can actually be seen!

[Rick]

We'd rather these pictures be uploaded to the forum for continuity.

When they disappear as links in time as they will; we will have nothing to show to people searching the database .

Please be kind and upload your pics . :)

[katana]

We'd rather these pictures be uploaded to the forum for continuity.

When they disappear as links in time as they will; we will have nothing to show to people searching the database .

Please be kind and upload your pics . :)


Hi Rick :) ,
I couldn't agree more....its infuriating when reading older threads and finding no pictures (broken links) :(

All the best
Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
Thank you for posting this!!!! You know I get weak in the knees every time I see one of these, and Manolo thank you so much for the kind words...although Im no expert I do readily admit my passion for them.

Mark, its good to see the progress you've made, and I must tell you that while a lot of folks are pretty comfortable with the dynamics of these magic boxes.....it took me more years than I care to admit to finally figure out how to post things. Actually my co-pilot here (my wife) is the tech support around here, and she finally helped me with getting it done...and once I had done it a few times, it became less of a mystery.


Fernando, very kind gesture there sir!!! A true gentleman you are :)

I agree, these threads are intended to stand as a virtual archives for future collectors queries and research, and its important to keep their integrity with images intact.

Thank you so much for posting this, and I'd really like to get some discussion going on espada anchas.

All best regards,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Hello,

I imagine these were seen in the Phillipines as well. Here is a tourist oddity from a while back (http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5880) that seems to combine the tradition of the espada with fantasy nihonto.

Regards,
Emanuel

[celtan]

oopsies!

And I thought I was helping by not downloading the actual pic....

Zorry!

M


We'd rather these pictures be uploaded to the forum for continuity.

When they disappear as links in time as they will; we will have nothing to show to people searching the database .

Please be kind and upload your pics . :)

[M ELEY]

Thanks, everyone, for replying and coming to my aid.

Fernando, I may take you up on that. I'm going to try one more time and if I fail, I'll PM you. Thank you so much for the offer. Pics aren't the best, but they should get the point across once properly sized...

Jim, I also have a "co-pilot" in all things gadgety, namely my 13 y.o. daughter- :o . In any case, I'm still not sure if this piece is an espada or a colonial American piece. I will hopefully be posting better pics soon. Thanks!

[celtan]

Marc, is your OS Windows or Mac?


Thanks, everyone, for replying and coming to my aid.

Fernando, I may take you up on that. I'm going to try one more time and if I fail, I'll PM you. Thank you so much for the offer. Pics aren't the best, but they should get the point across once properly sized...

Jim, I also have a "co-pilot" in all things gadgety, namely my 13 y.o. daughter- :o . In any case, I'm still not sure if this piece is an espada or a colonial American piece. I will hopefully be posting better pics soon. Thanks!

[M ELEY]

Hi Manolo,
It's Windows, but save your time. I am completely illiterate when it comes to even the basic computer skills. My daughter, on the other hand, is pretty good. We'll eventually get it right.....or I'll be sending the pics off to Nando- :D

[Dmitry]

Are the photos upcoming?

[M ELEY]

Hello, Dmitry, and thanks for coming in on this one. I'm still working on getting them loaded and will probably end up sending them off to Fernando for uploading. I am now convinced that the strapwork around the hilt is indeed low-grade pewter and not lead as I initially thought. It is soft enough that I can slightly scratch it with my thumb nail, but where it has broken away from the wood grip, it is brittle and non-bendable. It's not white metal, but I guess it could still be some other alloy. Tin? I know tin-smithing was around then. Have to do more research. I still think it's a contstant for early American, but also Span colonial. :shrug:

[M ELEY]

Trying again...

[M ELEY]

More pics...

[M ELEY]

Thanks, Rick! That program you recommended was easy to use. I did it myself- gasp!

[katana]

Hi M Eley :) ,
well done ;) Having loads of teenagers around I had to learn quickly...to save face :D

Hope you don't mind ..I have re-edited your picture and reposted. I'm lucky, I have a photo editor which is easy to use.

All the best
David

Ah dear......since writing this post.......loads more pictures have been posted :o You have obviously mastered it now :cool:

.

[M ELEY]

The sword measures just under 22" long with a 17" blade, so I guess it could be either a short hanger or long dagger. As already stated, the interesting wood grip cut with grooves with metal strapwork (damaged on one side). The alloy isn't white metal, silver, or lead (not soft enough). It could be tin or pewter (I suspect the latter). Note the small hole in the quillon, possibly for a chain link or knot? So...what is it? Euro hanger, colonial piece, Spanish espada? Dagger or sword? Late 18th, early or mid-19th? Thanks all.

[katana]

Hi
I would not rule out Africa......there are a number of similar swords originating from West Africa.....Although I have not seen one with the 'spiral' decorated hilt.

All the best
David

[fernando]

Trying again...
.

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/appl.gif

Fernando

[katana]

Just a quick thought....the metal 'spiral' could be a zinc alloy. Africans are masters of utilising any resource. They obtain the zinc alloy from the outer casing of dry cell batteries. (invented late 19th C).

Bearing in mind many areas are fairly remote from electrical supplies, the use of batteries by colonalists was increasingly more widespread as the 20th C progressed. Discharged batteries were not re-chargeable and discarded.

A fairly similar sword from Africa
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2440&highlight=toureg

Regards David

.

[M ELEY]

Hmmm...I guess it was presumptive of me to not think of a possible ethnographic origin. It could indeed be African, but I still think this piece has some aging to it. I also was thinking about zinc, but being that it's use came later in the 19th, I dismissed it. Is there any test I could do to positively identify the alloy in the hilt? I still think it is tin or pewter, but not sure.
If it is African, I hope it's Algerian or Moroccan (Pirate!! :D ), but the piece looks more European/N American to me.- :shrug:

[Jim McDougall]

Mark, beautifully done!!! Congratulations :) It really feels great to master the mysteries of these things, and its fun once you get going.
This certainly does not resemble any espada ancha I've seen, though these did get pretty crude in later times, and by the mid 19th century were essentially large Bowie knives. It does not rule out the innovative edged weapons created by Mexican blacksmiths later in the 19th century, which would be hard to accurately identify.
The unusual D guard and scrolled overlap at the pommel, which seems more characteristic for a quillon terminal and the gadrooned metal on the grip could lend toward Africa. With the style and shortened blade, maybe it could be a dirk from the Maghreb's 'nautical enterprises' ?
Interesting though!!!!
I look forward to your postings coming with this newfound skill!!! yay!
All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thank you, Jim and David for responding.
David, the sword you mentioned with the zinc hilt was Taureg, a people from the Maghreb, so perhaps my jest wasn't too far off. it would be nice if it were associated in that part of the continent for my collecting purposes.

Jim, all I can say is...Aaaarrrr! Have you ever seen a gadrooned African grip like this before? It was what attracted me to the piece in the first place. Unusual.

Anyway, any suggestions as to testing metal just to see if it's zinc, tin, or ?? Also, a date? Mid- to late- 19th, I guess?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
Actually, in a word...no, but Im always curious about these composite, very workmanlike weapons, which would certainly be most likely to have been assembled by makeshift armouries or blacksmiths. As we have discussed, the high times of piracy and adventure did not end with that of the "Golden Age', but continued worldwide to this day of course. The 'Spanish Main' existed into the 20th century through the Caribbean, Gulf of Mexico, Philippines and South America, with the far eastern sector in Spanish regions of the Maghreb.
Then there were 'Barbary Pirates' et al, and this I think presents most of the confusion in these 'worked' and assembled ersatz weapons.

I feel like I've seen something with the strap like guard which extends as a D guard, and protruding pommel strap with scrolled terminal, it seems to recall the 17th century English hangers seen in some cases. The 'heavy spiralled cage' is another representation of hangers hilts of 18th century, but only in much finer banded work or spiraled flutes in wood or horn design. The crude heavy bars and the metal itself seem more 20th century. I'm not sure about pewter, which I think was more a cast metal than workable sheeted type, and this seems too heavy for tin, looks more like aluminum or alloyed sheet steel. Nothing from the early types and periods this appears to represent.

The blade, and the hilt seem much earlier than this unusual grip cage, and it seems that a dirk or Bowie type weapon was fashioned here. I guess thats about the limit of my 'forensics' interpretation :)
As always, looking forward to thoughts of others.

Arrrr!!! You're always good for these conundrum pieces Capt. Mark!!!

All the best,
Jim

[pbleed]

Friends,
This list is consistently polite and positive and I admire that, but....
I have to say that I am very suspicious of this piece. The blade and the guard may be all right, but the grip just looks, well, hinky. I bet the metal is either lead or pewter - and sure it could be zinc or "spelter" -This kind of work is EASY. If you have not already studied them, I recommend Ben Hunt's wonder books on "Indian craft." He shows how to this kind of work and it is not a big deal. Beyond that, look at how the grip fits the blade. It is klunky and I think bad from a functional point of view. I bet it is very heavy and I just can't believe that it is balanced or comfortable in the hand. Look at how wide the grisp is were it joins the guard. If it had age, I would expect much more wear at this point.
So, I have to wonder if this wasn't make - or assembled or augmented - in a basement workshop, recently.
Forgive me if I am being too suspicious.
Peter

[M ELEY]

Hello Peter,

Although the piece is primitive and disappointing to me in that it isn't what I had hoped, I don't think it's as bad as all that. Many "colonial-made" weapons are crude in the way mine is. I have several Spani colonial pieces that could easily have been made in the basement, but have aging and are established patterns. Likewise, most of the American colonial pieces in Neumann's and Moore's guides are clunky, mismatched blades, incorrect balanced, etc. This little dagger is actually very light, has a nice patina and is intended as a true weapon. Likewise, African weapons were made using whatever materials were availible, car engine springs and zinc thermometer cores included. Many Zulu spear blades in the 19th were made from barrel hoops from British kegs. Likewise, I wouldn't place it any earlier than late 19th.

[katana]

Hi Mark,
perhaps you should put this piece on the Ethnographic Forum....not everyone views the European one and you might get more input ;)

Regards David

[colin henshaw]

Hi

I've just stumbled across this post...I'm fairly sure this is a West African sword (as mentioned by Katana), copied from the European type. Probably Fon (Dahomey) or Akan (Ghana). I've had knives from that area with lead inlay to the handle, in the past.

The forest kingdoms of West Africa had a long period of contact with Europeans and copied their weapons etc extensively.

A very interesting piece.

Regards.

[katana]

Hi Mark,
there seems to be markings/numerals near the hilt, is that the case ?

David

[Dmitry]

I don't think this piece has much age to it. Other than that I don't have anything to add in terms of constructive input. Perhaps someone will come up with a more definite attribution.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
perhaps you should put this piece on the Ethnographic Forum....not everyone views the European one and you might get more input ;)

Regards David


GRRRRR!!!!!!! :mad:
Sad....but true. :shrug:

Actually this thread has gotten monumentally more mileage than the one I posted not too long ago to try talking about espada anchas. Clearly the term 'Spanish hanger' works better, as not that many out there recognize the espada ancha (=Sp. wide sword, broadly describing frontier hangers and swords in New Spain).

Dmitry, I think the attributions discussed so far are probably pretty thoroughly as much as can be assessed, and I agree with Mark's position on it overall. I think these are vintage components (and I will find that scrolled pommel strap someplace!) and assembled in the manner that those who desperately need weapons typically have found through the centuries....in any way they can.
Rather than having the appearance of a piece intended to be passed off as something it is not, it seems more a working piece, and using components as best as possible. I have an old Spanish piece comprised of the larger part of one of the Spanish dragoon blades (Do not draw me without reason etc.); the hilt of a briquet (cast brass infantry hanger); and the three bar guard of a cavalry sabre........obviously components that were incongruent, but on the frontiers, pretty didnt matter. Anybody who knows about these rugged wildernesses and those who survived in them knows..everything got recycled!

The pewter or whatever it is, metal, as Peter describes, is certainly a malleable component and the only question really is, how long ago would this particular caged grip have been fashioned? The components such as the blade (and would like to know if there are marks on the blade as 'hawkeye' David keenly observed!:) and the guard are old.

Best regards,
Jim

[Dmitry]

GRRRRR!!!!!!! :mad:

Dmitry, I think the attributions discussed so far are probably pretty thoroughly as much as can be assessed,

Previous page is full of attributions, from Philippines to North Africa.
It's time to produce some material evidence! :)

[Jim McDougall]

Previous page is full of attributions, from Philippines to North Africa.
It's time to produce some material evidence! :)

Well noted Dmitry, thats always what we hope for, and I know I'll be using whatever resources I have and can find to add whatever I might locate. I think thats the best part of all this..the learning. Mark has always had a certain acumen for finding intriquing examples that often reveal interesting histories, so I'm sure theres a unique story in this one somewhere.

I just noticed the interesting and colorful item that David posted has the scrolled D guard element at crossguard terminal and pommel cap. While this Philippine fantasy item is obviously turista stuff, these can sometimes reflect influences seen in actual weapons of the past, present or both.

I recall some years ago while resesrching the M1913 Patton swords of the U.S.Army I discovered that at some point just prior to or during WWII many of these were cut down to form fighting knives/dirks. I have never seen one of these in altered form, but must have looked formidable with the huge bowl guard!

The point is the ersatz modification of weapons into fighting forms that were more suitable for thier intended use in the time. As I mentioned earlier, village blacksmiths in Mexico constantly turned out unbelievable and often some quite ungainly appearing weapons in the colorful and turbulent history of that country. Since components of old weapons that had sometimes been around for a century or even more were used, not only were these odd pieces hard to assess, but the numbers of early period weapons diminished notably.

This quite understandable phenomenon is nothing new or unusual, and factoring in trade routes and geopolitical 'turbulence' in many cultural spheres and colonial regions, the potential for accuracy or plausibility for these type weapons becomes a daunting challenge. This is why many shy away from entering in on making observations and comments, especially here, and why such material is often slow in forthcoming.

With that noted, my compliments to Mark, for his ever amazing fortitude and optimism in acquiring these interesting and challenging items; to those who constantly 'pick up the gauntlet' ...David, Peter and Colin with plausible and well placed assessments and to you Dmitry, for extending the courtesy of posting, even though as you say, you had nothing in particular to add.

That gesture means a lot!!! And hopefully says something to the host of lurking readers out there who are afraid of posting for fear of being chastized or whatever other reasons they have .........it takes courage at times to make comments, especially on topics one might know little of.
Its called participation, and sincerely appreciated, thank you guys.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Dmitry]

I recall some years ago while resesrching the M1913 Patton swords of the U.S.Army I discovered that at some point just prior to or during WWII many of these were cut down to form fighting knives/dirks. I have never seen one of these in altered form, but must have looked formidable with the huge bowl guard!




Actually, the only thing that was used for these fighting daggers [not really knives, since the edges were not sharpened, if I remember correctly] were the cut down Patton sword blades. The handles were made to fit by the artisans. Basket guards were discarded.

I'll look through my sources tonight. Perhaps I'll find something simi8lar to Mark's piece.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually, the only thing that was used for these fighting daggers [not really knives, since the edges were not sharpened, if I remember correctly] were the cut down Patton sword blades. The handles were made to fit by the artisans. Basket guards were discarded.

I'll look through my sources tonight. Perhaps I'll find something simi8lar to Mark's piece.

Thanks for that info Dmitry! I'll put that with my notes....I kinda wondered how effective those huge bowl guards would have been. All it said in the reference I had, from what I recall, was that these swords were cut down, but no reference specifically to blade or hilt etc.

Thank you for checking further for more on Marks piece, I wish I had access to more of my old notes!!! Its just great to have teamwork in checking into these things.

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thanks to all involved who have taken the time to tackle this tricky item. Likewise, a special thanks to you, Jim, for noting the sometimes difficult position of posting an "unknown", versus a known specimen for discussion. (This reminds me of some of the friction I created when posting an axe in the past that I thought could have been a "private purchase" boarding axe. No material exists on the subject other than conjecture based on classic naval models and what a merchantman piece might have resembled. Many would only choose to purchase a known, marked piece rather than take a chance on something that might not be the real deal. I don't mind taking chances, provided I don't spend a bundle doing it- :D )

When I posted this item, I left it open for discussion and am fascinated where it has gone. I mean, at least it did garner some attention. While not over-joyed that it isn't colonial American, I do find it pleasing that it could very well be West African, either Dahomey (slave trade heavily associated with piracy) or Maghreb (piracy directly). While it is embarassing to be so far off in my initial thoughts on this piece, I will absolutely stick by my opinion as to the age of this piece. The pics (poor ones made by me, I admit) don't do it justice, nor show the true age. The wood has a patina as dark as my old boarding pike discussed recently. The blade has patina, wear, and mild pitting reminescent of several colonial pieces I possess (the marking in question is so faint, I cannot tell for sure if it is just a forging flaw or a long-worn mark- sorry!). Even the lead(?), pewter (?) has an old dull luster exactly like my Victorian-era tavern flask. I have no doubt that it is pre-1900, even if it's origin remains a little fuzzy. In any case, hope that an example of something similar out there may turn up.

[Dmitry]

Anthony Tirri's book on Islamic weapons doesn't have any weapons with a similar grip.

[Dmitry]

Jim, here's what a WWII Patton-bladed dagger looks like. There are variations, this particular one is by Anderson.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Dmitry,
Thanks very much for the photos......looks like a cast bayonet hilt.
Not exactly a Fairburn-Sykes :) but looks like it would do the job.

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

www.apacheria.com/images/ew204.jpg
www.apacheria.com/images/ew204b.jpg
www.apacheria.com/images/ew204c.jpg

OK, so is this Spanish/Mexican colonial work? It sure looks like later 19th century Mex piece to me, complete with classic hilt shape and 3 barred guard. Forgot to mention that it is listed as a Mex sword on the website. Note the turned quillon on this piece and how it compares to mine. I have since seen another late-Mex piece in an old Fagan catalog that likewise had some type of tin/nickol wrap-around. Gaudy-looking, but an espada, none-the-less. Likewise, I have been pouring through web-sites and our onw forum, ut have yet to encounter a W. African sword with a hilt like mine. This isn't a pride-thing, I assure you. I'm neutral on it's origin, I just want some closure!! ( :D :D :D )- Don't we all on these anomalous pieces...

[M ELEY]

Bump. Anyone? Does this sword I posted lend some credence to Mex/Colonial Spanish or is there any proof that this new posting is ALSO of W African origin?? Note how even the D-guard grip are similar.

Here's another Mex sword with the same curve to the quillon, similar to the one on mine-

www.ambroseantiques.com/swords/mexican.htm

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
Well theres another interesting example! Again, this looks very much like the makeshift work representing established traditional sword types in Mexico, but post colonial period. Sabres similar to these are described in the Adams article on espada anchas as 'round tang' espadas, and they typically had multibar guards ('gavilan'). The blade on this is of espada ancha type but later, along with the very modern elements on the hilt with copper and aluminum.
It is not hard to imagine West Africa brought into the picture with some of these types of one off pieces which are all the more difficult to identify as there are seldom parallel items with which to compare them. Without actual handling of these, by appearance they have typological characteristics of the Mexican espadas, but the very modern components create concerns about likely refurbishing in more modern times.

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Hello Jim and Happy New Year!

Thanks for responding. Did Adams establish if the so-called round tang espadas were a relatively late development in these swords, or were they seen on earlier pieces as well? You are right on when you mention the trade-routes and intricate cross-over of styles between some cultures. I'm still willing to believe W African...just too bad no exact examples forthcoming.

I find it interesting that the one characteristic which really makes one pause with classifying it (the alloy grip) is also the very thing that attracted me to it and makes it stand out. Without that, it would have been an extremely plain piece, less eye catching, yet with it, an anomaly.

Seems like the next step I might take is in testing the grip for metal type. If it does turn out to be tin or pewter, I imagine it could be older vs nickel (mid- 19th) vs zinc (late 19th/early 20th). Does anyone have any recommendations for tests? :shrug:

[katana]

Hi Mark,
personally I still feel that this sword could be African ....don't forget that the Spanish had colonised parts of coastal Western Africa, as did the Portugese. The length of blade does suggest naval useage...perhaps a direct copy of those seen carried by the ships crews and onboard Marines. As the Spanish were involved in the Slave trade ....there is the possibility that this sword, or perhaps an earlier version, was issued to a native whom 'helped' in this activity, and would be a status symbol to show the individual's rank :shrug:

I must point out that you could be totally correct, but without provenance and the age of the sword being unknown, this sword will be impossible to ID. I have several weapons that fall into this 'unknown' catergory .....the 'Mystery pile' :cool:

All the best
David

[M ELEY]

Thanks for commenting, David. Yes, the over-all look of this piece does hint at a naval connotation. That's one of the things that attracted me to it. Regardless of its origin, I like the piece and it continues to grow on me. I do admit that a more solid classification is my style, but if most of the evidence points to W African with Spanish influence, I can live with that. I'm still interested in a more definitive time period and would argue that it is pre-1900.

Ahh yes, the infamous "mystery pile". I have pilfered from it's stockpile many a time... :D

[celtan]

Guys,

The Canary islands are very, very far away from Europe, yet rather close to Africa, and they have similar made knives.

Taking into consideration the huge involvement of England in the slave trade, it is more likely that this sword might be a native copy of a British cutlass, compounded with a Canary Islands-type hilt. ( IIRC, the Spanish did not make any Cutlasses until the Napoleonic Wars. : )

Another alternative is that it might be a Filipino weapon? I does have a certain oriental "feel" to it.

TTFN

M


Hi Mark,
personally I still feel that this sword could be African ....don't forget that the Spanish had colonised parts of coastal Western Africa, as did the Portugese. The length of blade does suggest naval useage...perhaps a direct copy of those seen carried by the ships crews and onboard Marines. As the Spanish were involved in the Slave trade ....there is the possibility that this sword, or perhaps an earlier version, was issued to a native whom 'helped' in this activity, and would be a status symbol to show the individual's rank :shrug:

I must point out that you could be totally correct, but without provenance and the age of the sword being unknown, this sword will be impossible to ID. I have several weapons that fall into this 'unknown' catergory .....the 'Mystery pile' :cool:

All the best
David

[M ELEY]

Hello Manelo and thanks for your input,

I'll have to do a little research on the Canaries. I've seen the knife from there that resembles the plug bayonet, but never one with a guard or curved blade. Your logic of the trade routes does make sense, though.

Having looked through a million old catalogs of mine and perusing the web, I do see a more than slight resemblence with the so-called Fon war sword. Likewise, the curved short blades on some Nigerian pieces (still W Africa) could fit the bill, if not an exact fit. I still see more of a Spanish influence here with the European-style blade, D-guard hilt, strapwork grip and spiral quillon. The Spanish were in the Maghreb, but not in the Dahomey empire/area, more in Spanish Morocco. Likewise, we all know of the Spanish influence on Philippine weapons. As David succintly stated, this one might always remain in the mystery pile... :shrug:

[katana]

Mark, the Canaries has been a Spanish colony for many years...

"....From the late fifteenth century to 1821 the Canaries underwent a process of increasing assimilation into Spanish political and cultural norms, despite periodic attacks from North Africa and from Dutch and English privateers and pirates in the seventeenth century. By the early twenty-first century the Canary Islands still formed part of the Spanish state, included in the 1978 constitution..."
http://www.answers.com/topic/africa-and-the-canary-islands

One other thought I had about the 'spiral' design of the hilt ....Western Africans regard the snake with great 'reverence' ....it could be argued that it is symbolic (of a snake). I wondered whether there were any markings on the metal that could support this 'theory' ....however, as the metal inlay is soft, I suspect that if there were 'markings' originally, they would probably be 'rubbed' by now.

Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Mark, I'm glad you've kept this thread going, and probably one of the best results is in emphasizing the difficulties in identification of swords which are actually Mexican, and really not technically Spanish Colonial. When dealing with weapons which are fabricated in later periods than the weapons they in essence replicate, often even using actual earlier components, it becomes extremely difficult to accurately assess them.

The 'round tang hilt' as I have mentioned, was essentially a hanger type sabre which evolved around the 1820's, and sought to add a multiple bar handguard as seen on European military sabre hilts. In "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821", I believe the term used loosely was 'gavilan' to describe these hilts (the term if I recall refers to 'sprouts' as in wheat etc). As may be expected in the frontier environment in which these were fabricated, there were countless variations, and as mentioned, often using blades from surplus, trade or damaged weapons.
It would be difficult to establish definite periods of use, as popular use of these was essentially to carry forth traditional fashion from contemporary military styles and in some cases attempts to preserve the heritage of the Spanish ancestry, more from that point of view. It was a struggling young country seeking to create its autonomy and its own identity, which clearly reflected the diversity of its people.

The espada ancha itself developed primarily out of the recognition of the fashions of earlier times and the gentry of European countries, with one of the most likely influences being English hangers of the 17th century. While it evolved into essentially a utilitarian weapon of the frontier, very much like a machete, awareness of more military style weapons, and the multiple bar guard became popular, and probably carried well into the latter 19th century.
Even during the Porfiria, the long rule of Porfirio Diaz, swords were an element of the loosely styled police units known as 'Rurales', who wore many variations of sabres from vintage sabres of earlier times, to refurbished versions as described.

The scroll type quillon terminal noted is well established among examples of the espada ancha, and other sword variations in Mexico, which of course were produced throughout the 19th century.

The sword with the heavy blade and the unusual eaglehead hilt seems very much like the 'court' type dress swords (in this case with heavy fighting blade) which were often produced for officers or officials in what I would like to call 'regency type' weapons of Mexico. It seems that during post colonial (after 1821) times the attempts to create an 'Empire' beginning with Iturbide, also brought impressions of elevated stature to often relatively minor figures in outlying provinces and cities who sought to emulate regalia of the court atmospheres of Europe. The call for 'dress' fashion weapons was often answered by local blacksmiths who created traditional swords accordingly, and with in my opinion, admirable skill using materials available.

These are unfortunately often regarded dismissively by collectors, and clearly often misidentified, but in my opinion they represent the tenacious spririt of this diverse people seeking national identity in the most turbulent of times.

The final words in Bill Adams article, "The Unique Swords of Old Mexico" (1984) notes concerning these weapons that "...there is not yet much scholarship on the subject. I can see in the swords themselves much about the people who used them. For now, that is enough".

Well said about the weapons, but for me...it is never enough :) and like most of my work on studying weapons, it remains 'work in progress'.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

I just wanted to add additional photos after the battle with that illustration from the Adams article which is addmittedly of poor quality, but shows the type of Mexican swords I am referring to, and which corresponds to the example shown by Mark.

Here is an illustration from Lee Jones article on this website on espada anchas which illustrates the scroll quillon, as well as excerpts from both Neumann and Peterson showing the hangers from which the espada ancha and subsequent 'roiund tang' espadas evolved.

[Jim McDougall]

Mark, concerning the link to this eaglehead sword, I wanted to add that this seems to fall into the type of 'regency' swords that were furbished for court or official dress wear. A number of years ago I was able to handle a sword that had belonged to the family of Gen. Santa Anna, and had been his of course. It seems as I recall it had a hilt with eaglehead and distinctly recall that it had something to do with Oaxaca on the blade. It was in the stored holdings of a museum in a safe, and I didn't get the opportunity for photos.

Oaxaca was contiguous to the west of the the key port of Vera Cruz, one of the extremely important ports of call in the 'Spanish Main' trade network, and perhaps this was a presentation piece to him?

In any case, it was yet another instance of the eaglehead used in these early times of the Mexican Republic.

All very best regards,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thank you gents once again for responding,

David, you have enlightened me on information on the Canaries that I was not aware of. I must read up on them, being that they were a Spanish colony and had contact with piracy, a personal favorite topic of mine. I shall do research on the knives you mentioned as well.

Jim, as always, the sheer amount of material you presented is amazing! Sorry to take up your time with this one, but it is always fascinating how many different inroads these types of mystery pieces lead down. Your knowledge of Spanish swords is abounding! I especially love the pics of the espadas with the barred hilts, similar to the one from my own collection. I do see your point on the later Mexican weapons as well. Strange that this bias exists for these 19th century types, yet not for the rapiers which still existed into this time period. Perhaps it is the legend of Zorro which kept the latter in a more "exciting" viewpoint vs the more cumbersome/primitive pieces used by the commonwealth?? In any case, Thanks so much for the material, amigo! :cool:

[celtan]

Eley,the Canaries are a Spanish province. I don't think that rapiers were still in vogue during the 19th C, although the small-sword did make it until the 1820s.

BTW, I don't seem to recall any roperas/rapiers ever been made in Mexico, although I believe some putting together/repairs of Blades and perhaps even hilts, imported from Spain did take place.

Best

M

Thank you gents once again for responding,

David, you have enlightened me on information on the Canaries that I was not aware of. I must read up on them, being that they were a Spanish colony and had contact with piracy, a personal favorite topic of mine. I shall do research on the knives you mentioned as well.

Jim, as always, the sheer amount of material you presented is amazing! Sorry to take up your time with this one, but it is always fascinating how many different inroads these types of mystery pieces lead down. Your knowledge of Spanish swords is abounding! I especially love the pics of the espadas with the barred hilts, similar to the one from my own collection. I do see your point on the later Mexican weapons as well. Strange that this bias exists for these 19th century types, yet not for the rapiers which still existed into this time period. Perhaps it is the legend of Zorro which kept the latter in a more "exciting" viewpoint vs the more cumbersome/primitive pieces used by the commonwealth?? In any case, Thanks so much for the material, amigo! :cool:

[M ELEY]

Hello Manolo,

I was referring to earlier rapiers (colonial Spanish, pre-1830) that were used in the later periods (I recall up to mid-century). I didn't realize, however, that no Mexican rapiers made. I recall seeing one attributed to a Mexican governor made in 1880 at an exclusive auction house via online recently. Perhaps it was more of a customized item reflecting back on a more Romantic time-period?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
Thank you for the kind words, and as always, as we have discussed many times, the intriguing topic of piracy always comes into play as we look into the history of the Spanish Main. While the 'Golden Age' of piracy is placed from about 1680 through 1720, it has of course never really ceased and remained colorfully active in degree in its adventurous sense well into the 19th century. Jean Lafitte is well known as the romanticized pirate figure in his New Orleans dominion locally known as Barateria in the early years of the 1800's.
The legend of Zorro, always one of my favorites :) as it is truly an amalgam of a number of adventure/romance classics coupled with local folklore and legends of banditry and outlaws. The use of the magnificent Spanish rapiers was of course purely Hollywood theatrics, but served well in carrying the popular 'swashbuckling' theme from the beginnings of motion pictures.

As Manolo has well observed, there were no rapiers of these 17th century types ever produced in New Spain in the early 19th century, the period represented in the Zorro stories. However, the Spaniards, with profound tradition pertaining to the sword, still held on to thier beloved 'cuphilt' through the 18th century, though mounted with heavier 'arming' blades by the 1760's. These type of cuphilts are known as 'Caribbean' cuphilts, as they seem to have been known primarily in those regions and Cuba as well as the South American regions. Also well known in these areas were the heavy bladed military swords in the design of multibar developed hilts known as the bilbo, dating from about 1760's and used into the 19th century. Both of these types might be classified as heavy, fighting rapiers.

I do know that there were shipments of rapier style blades going to New Spain in the early 18th century, which suggests of course that these may have been for refurbishing rapiers there. In the instance I speak of, there was a shipment of about 40 blades found in the remains of a shipwreck of that period off the coast of Panama I believe, its been quite a few years since that research.

While the actual use of rapiers with the narrow, fencing blades was pretty much gone by the 1820's, the smallsword or epee was of course well known with the gentry. I do have one of the 'court' epee style swords that seems undoubtedly to have been produced in Mexico, as noted earlier most likely in the 'regency' period between 1820's-1840's with the narrow rapier style blade, a dish guard, with crossbars beneath as vestigially placed quillons, and certainly intended as a dress element rather than a combat weapon.

I would believe that many examples of the earlier rapiers certainly did exist among the Peninsulares in New Spain who proudly maintained thier traditions and heritage, with these heirlooms as status symbols. As Mark has noted, as such, these early rapier forms certainly were present probably even into the 20th century but not worn or used. This could not have been in any significant numbers, and certainly diminished through the years as these dispersed into collections probably by the 1920's.

All very best regards,
Jim

[celtan]

Jim, you own one? A picture, a picture!


Hi Jim and Eley,

The Bilb(a)o was a cheap cuphilt heavy-bladed sword, made for export in Northern Spain, and meant mostly to be sent and sold in America.

Roperas/Rapiers with lasso-guards were made until 1650-80s, and the cup-hilted rapiers were made until about 1710 or so. Subsequent blades were sturdier, or used in the much shorter small-swords. They can not be considered true rapiers. For virtually all purposes, there were no rapiers in the 19th C, although some subsisted in use during the _very early_ 18th C. Granted, some small-sword blades look the part, but are much shorter.

Jim, the quality of the blade is paramount to a sword. Which is the reason this part of the sword was made only in certain places such as Toledo, Solingen, Albacete, Klingenthal, Birmingham, Barcelona, Wyra Bruk etc... and exported. I don't know of any such place in America, but I would love to hear and learn more on the subject..!

Best regards,

M

(BTW, I think some blades were also found at the "Caballo" wreck.)


Hi Mark,
Thank you for the kind words, and as always, as we have discussed many times, the intriguing topic of piracy always comes into play as we look into the history of the Spanish Main. While the 'Golden Age' of piracy is placed from about 1680 through 1720, it has of course never really ceased and remained colorfully active in degree in its adventurous sense well into the 19th century. Jean Lafitte is well known as the romanticized pirate figure in his New Orleans dominion locally known as Barateria in the early years of the 1800's.
The legend of Zorro, always one of my favorites :) as it is truly an amalgam of a number of adventure/romance classics coupled with local folklore and legends of banditry and outlaws. The use of the magnificent Spanish rapiers was of course purely Hollywood theatrics, but served well in carrying the popular 'swashbuckling' theme from the beginnings of motion pictures.

As Manolo has well observed, there were no rapiers of these 17th century types ever produced in New Spain in the early 19th century, the period represented in the Zorro stories. However, the Spaniards, with profound tradition pertaining to the sword, still held on to thier beloved 'cuphilt' through the 18th century, though mounted with heavier 'arming' blades by the 1760's. These type of cuphilts are known as 'Caribbean' cuphilts, as they seem to have been known primarily in those regions and Cuba as well as the South American regions. Also well known in these areas were the heavy bladed military swords in the design of multibar developed hilts known as the bilbo, dating from about 1760's and used into the 19th century. Both of these types might be classified as heavy, fighting rapiers.

I do know that there were shipments of rapier style blades going to New Spain in the early 18th century, which suggests of course that these may have been for refurbishing rapiers there. In the instance I speak of, there was a shipment of about 40 blades found in the remains of a shipwreck of that period off the coast of Panama I believe, its been quite a few years since that research.

While the actual use of rapiers with the narrow, fencing blades was pretty much gone by the 1820's, the smallsword or epee was of course well known with the gentry. I do have one of the 'court' epee style swords that seems undoubtedly to have been produced in Mexico, as noted earlier most likely in the 'regency' period between 1820's-1840's with the narrow rapier style blade, a dish guard, with crossbars beneath as vestigially placed quillons, and certainly intended as a dress element rather than a combat weapon.

I would believe that many examples of the earlier rapiers certainly did exist among the Peninsulares in New Spain who proudly maintained thier traditions and heritage, with these heirlooms as status symbols. As Mark has noted, as such, these early rapier forms certainly were present probably even into the 20th century but not worn or used. This could not have been in any significant numbers, and certainly diminished through the years as these dispersed into collections probably by the 1920's.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Manolo,
Yes I do have one, but it is pretty simple, I'll try to find a photo of it if I have one in the files. Actually I havent seen it in years.
Excellent synopsis on these swords! and well put about the blades. That name 'Caballo' rings a bell, but I havent seen notes on that shipwreck in years either....all I remember was a group of blades, many with 'Jesus' on one side in the central fuller, and 'Maria' one the other same place. I'm pretty sure these blades could have been Solingen made, and possibly later than the end of the 17th century that I once assumed. They were all narrow rapier blades though.

The same situation presented itself when countless numbers of the Solingen produced 'dragoon' blades began being shipped, with 'Draw me without Reason' etc. mottos on the blades about the 1760's.

You are right about the rapiers, whose blades definitely did become much stouter into the 18th century, especially as they came into the military perspective from the extremely long civilian duelling weapons. As with terminology and its application, it is often difficult to determine with weapons and in many, if not most cases, semantics do prevail.

Very best regards,
Jim

[colin henshaw]

Hi

I finally laid my hands on this photo I took of a dagger from the Akan (Ghana) area in West Africa, that I owned some years ago. It can be seen the dagger has a similar style of lead inlay decoration applied to the wooden handle, including a spiral form (albeit on a smaller scale).

Another point to note is....a comparison of the West African sword posted by Fernando in August 2008 with this one...the general style and "crudeness" in both swords is quite close.

I'm say, 80% sure Mark's sword if from the forest Kingdoms of West Africa...

Regards.

[M ELEY]

Hello Colin and thank you so much for replying,

FINALLY! Definitive proof of lead strapwork on a W African piece. It is nice to finally find proof and catagorize these mystery pieces. Now the only question for me is...is there any connection with the pirate trade? If so, even a weak one and I'll keep the piece. Otherwise, it's off to eBay!

Many of the pirates dealt in the "Black Ivory Trade" as it was called, and I know that the Afon and Dahomey were associated with the trade. Was Ghana? Of course, the pirate/slave connection ended a century or more before slavery itself did, but again if a connection can be made, the piece stays. I'll have to do some research on Ghana. Were they as sea-faring people, like the Barbary corsairs? Research...

[colin henshaw]

Hi Mark

The whole subject of West Africa, the slave trade, trade in gold, ivory etc and European contact and colonialism, is a huge one, and there are many good books on the subject.

Certainly, the sword has a connection with the slave trade and shipping, so I guess there is always a possibility that piracy could come into it somewhere... Research required !

Regards
Colin

[M ELEY]

Thanks, Colin for your input and PM on this piece. You are right about the research, but I am looking forward to it, as it is a fascinating and tragic tale. That dagger you had was an impressive piece. I'll let everyone know if there are any new developments...

[Jim McDougall]

Research required!!! I absolutely love those words!!! :)
Well done Colin, and I think you have presented the case for Africa with the hanger that is the original subject of this thread well. Excellent example from Ghana and good support for the styling.

While a distasteful topic, the West Coast of Africa's participation in the Atlantic slave trade is a necessarily recognized element of the history of these regions of Togo, Dahomey (now Benin) and West Nigeria.
With Dahomey the principal slave state of these, one of the key ports was that of Ouidah. The infamous 'triangular trade' from Africa to the West Indies and to England was well established in the opening years of the 18th century, and the export of slaves by Portuguese, French, Spanish and English carried them to the West Indies colonies as well as to Brazil.

Naturally, the 'Golden Age' of piracy was in its zenith in these times, and the lucrative commodities that comprised the ill gotten gains of this tragic industry were the target of the pirates...not to mention the desirable ships themselves.

In 1715, a fast, heavy galley, the Whydah (named for the key slave port of Ouidah) was launched to enter this trade. In 1717, this ship while nearing the Bahamas was set upon by the pirate Black Sam Bellamy and his crew in two ships, and captured. The Whydah served them well for the next two months and they plundered some 50 ships, but thier luck ran out April 26,1717 when they were headed back to Cape Cod with loads of plunder. The galley sank in a huge storm, and only 2 of 146 survived. Much of this detail is covered in a great exhibition and article by National Geographic.

The kingdom of Dahomey lasted until 1894, when it became part of French West Africa. While the term slave coast had long since given way, thankfully to other terms such as Ivory, Gold or simply West coasts, like many African regions, turbulence has constantly returned.

It would seem that the 'triangular trade' as well as the well established 'Spanish Main', which both concurrently existed in many of these common regions, would have presented profound diffusion of weapon forms through all of them.

I think this hanger well represents the much earlier influences of the 17th and 18th century in styling that seems to be crudely presented with materials that are more modern, and intended to recall in throwback fashion, these earlier weapons. The spiral gadroon cage around the grip seems to serve as a functional and sound cover around the wood.
What is interesting is the extended 'spur' of the knuckleguard which protrudes past the pommel, very similar it seems to some 17th century English hilts, especially on some of the hangers.

While it is hard to determine whether this sword was fashioned in more modern times to appear more like one of the early hangers to attract collectors, or for use among the well known illicit activities that still prevail, but in the time when swords were still viable as weapons at sea, is hard to say.

It is well known that pirates were deliberately ostentatiously, even dandyish in sometimes almost garish fashion, in almost a rebellious, taunting manner.
They were rebellious figures with no allegiance to nation, codes, mores, nor convention and they enjoyed certain flamboyant actions and appearance, much like celebrity characters or as the 'goth' genre and its followers.

It would not be hard to 'fathom' smugglers or such illicit enterprenuers of even early 20th century fabricating such weapons from probably the components of earlier weapons found in these regions in less than intact condition.

An optimistic perspective, but nevertheless I believe plausible. :)

[aiontay]

Although it is a couple of centuries earlier than the weapon in question, Francis Drake got his start raiding the Spanish during a slave trading expedition run by John Hawkins. Hawkins may not have been a pirate, but his trading methods had more buccaneer than Better Business Bureau in them.

[katana]

Hi Mark,
I thought this relavent to the thread.....here is one the members of my "Mystery Pile" ;) .

An Africanised Cutless ....believed an european blade, scabbard and hilt 'style' ....strongly suggests West African, likely Ivory Coast. Patina of the blade suggest some age (possibly 18th C ) The right place, the right time (perhaps) for tales of slavery, of sea faring and of piracy :cool: .....well thats what I would like to believe ;)

Interestingly Spain apparently continued in the slave trade, after the other countries had abolished it.

All the best
David

[Jim McDougall]

Well noted Aiontay!!! Gotta love this pirate stuff!

David, very nice sabre.....appears to be Manding leatherwork from Mali, but trade carried into the coastal regions. A friend of a while back was Fulani, native of course to Saharan regions, who was from Guinea.

All best regards,
Jim

[Dmitry]

My $.02
katana, 18th c. boarding cutlass blades are not curved nearly as much as the blade on your piece. Your blade also appears to be of far nicer quality and finish than almost any cutlass blade of that vintage. I don't know the size of your blade, but at this juncture to me it looks like a European saber style blade.

[M ELEY]

Thanks again to everyone for helping define the origins of this sword.

Jim, as always, the piracy trade continues to attract me to that dubious lifestyle and their weapons. I have always enjoyed the story of the Whydah and its connection with the "trade". Interesting how the ship avoided one life of savagery only to succomb to another. In one of my volumes on piracy, it is very well noted that when a ship was boarded, some of the cargoed slaves were offered their freedom to join the pirate crew. I could have imagined an earleir version of this sword being carried by such a crew member.

David, very nice piece and while Dmitry is probably correct as to its blade being from a cavalry saber, it still very possibly served life in a maritime fashion. I love the way these cultures used what weapons they had access to to make their own creations. The Berber sabers that used the 1797 Brit cavalry saber blades comes to mind.

P.S. Jim, where did you get that cool map from? Don't tell me you had that one stashed in the book mobile?- :D

[Jim McDougall]

In looking further at David's 'mystery cutlass' which as noted, seems to have a blade, obviously cut down and modified, with mounts reflecting West African influences. As also previously described the scabbard features the styling suggesting those of the Manding in Mali regions, and the hilt overall has a vestigial block type crossguard recalling those on takouba or simply the shouldered guard on many forms of edged weapons. The overall impression of the leather covered hilt may also reflect the Mandara regions bordering Cameroon and Nigeria, often raided for acquiring slaves. Perhaps weapons from these regions might have influenced the individual fashioning this weapon.

Now heres a speculative note which may draw some excitement. I have been thinking about this modified blade, and that it appears by the line of what seems to have been one with a pronounced parabolic curve. While there were obviously some sabres in Europe that followed this very Eastern style, the sword that comes to mind is the 2nd model of Virginia Manufactory sabre produced about 1803-20). The interesting rudimentary false edge on this blade (very much like the 'clipped point' of latter 18th century) is also similar to those on some cavalry sabres by this firm, Rose and Starr.

These cavalry sabres were used in the Seminole wars, Mexican American war and by the time of the Civil War, the blades were severely cut down. The Virginia Manufactory blades were deeply curved, and measured a stunning 39 1/4" from hilt to tip in a straight line as originally produced.

It is of course well known that there was considerable trade activity with the Southern states during the Civil War via Gulf Coast ports and the Caribbean, which certainly entered the spheres of routes that reached Africa. To imagine that these American cavalry blades might have reached West Africa via the well established routes from the Caribbean and ports along the Gulf of Mexico seems remarkably plausible.

Although of course profoundly optimistic, it is compelling to think that this unusually curved blade, mounted in distinctly West African styled scabbard and hilt, may well have been present in these 19th century circumstances.

Mark, the Whydah story truly is fascinating, and it seems there were some artifacts, but I cannot recall swords. I believe the other slave ship which was found was the 'Henrietta Marie' which I think David Moore told me about. This was years ago when I was talking with Wayne Lusardi who was diving on the 'Queen Annes Revenge', Blackbeards ship. I was constantly prodding him to find some swords....and we laughed because 'all they found were cannons' !!:) The Henrietta Marie, if I recall, did have some hilts of old English hangers, and I keep thinking of the 'hilt spur' which seems to be from such English hangers of the Hounslow types.

Wish I could say I have the pirate resources here in the jolly bookmobile :)..but that map was in me trusty google!!

All the best,
Jim


attached Virginia Manufactory 2nd type (1801-1820) in orig form

[katana]

Hi Jim,
interesting theory Holmes :) I didn't intend to hijack Mark's thread, but because I would dearly love to 'promote' this sabre from the mystery pile to the 'could possibly be' pile, I will start another thread.

Never really thought of 'The Americas' influences, possibly occuring in Western Africa.
I wonder whether places like Cuba etc may have had a small fleet of 'slavers'.....possibly partially crewed with slaves or 'trustees' :shrug:
There is the possibility,however remote, that Mark's sword is a Spanish colonial piece...perhaps re-hilted in Africa or rehilted by an African slave. Many Africans captured would have had skills or trades ....some could have been blacksmiths ;)

Best
David

[Rick]

Ahh, the Whydah Galley . ;) :D

My lips ae sealed ......... LOLZ !!



Thanks again to everyone for helping define the origins of this sword.

Jim, as always, the piracy trade continues to attract me to that dubious lifestyle and their weapons. I have always enjoyed the story of the Whydah and its connection with the "trade". Interesting how the ship avoided one life of savagery only to succomb to another. In one of my volumes on piracy, it is very well noted that when a ship was boarded, some of the cargoed slaves were offered their freedom to join the pirate crew. I could have imagined an earleir version of this sword being carried by such a crew member.

David, very nice piece and while Dmitry is probably correct as to its blade being from a cavalry saber, it still very possibly served life in a maritime fashion. I love the way these cultures used what weapons they had access to to make their own creations. The Berber sabers that used the 1797 Brit cavalry saber blades comes to mind.

P.S. Jim, where did you get that cool map from? Don't tell me you had that one stashed in the book mobile?- :D

[Jim McDougall]

Ahh, the Whydah Galley . ;) :D

My lips ae sealed ......... LOLZ !!

more if the brethren of the sea emerge!!! :)

[M ELEY]

Well, I made the decision to part with the African cutlass (my collecting is only supported by selling off or trading other items) and sold it to pay for a piece on eBay. Take a look-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120516805609&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

It is a Dutch Marine sabal/saber circa 1790. According to Gilkerson/Boarders Away, it is thought that the ones without Dutch markings, rack numbers, etc, were imported to the U.S. during the Quazi War for ship use by the newly reformed U.S. Marines. In any case, while doing a general search on Google for other Dutch swords, I coincidentally stumbled upon this specimen-

www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=14911

Look familiar? That hilt wrap resembles the one just sold. So, I'm assuming this to be West African or???

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent call on this 'Civil War' sabre Mark!!!! Even though damaged, a most unusual item that has distinct possibilities....you've got quite the eagle eye there to spot that one as Dutch...Gilkerson is definitely a valuable resource.

I'm inclined to think that the guy in Houston has this sabre pegged pretty accurately, and it very well might be Dutch and of Revolutionary War period, after all, New York and environs were early Dutch settlements. The connections to the Netherlands in these colonial times were profound.
As far as the style of wrap, it seems more 'period' than place, and quite honestly with the amount of diffusion in trade, colonial activity and of course warfare in these times, without well supported provenance, any assessment must remain mostly speculation in my opinion.
In the case of the sabre posted here, the speculation seems compelling.

All the best,
Jim


P.S. Mark, thank you so much for keeping it going with these colonial and maritime topics!!! You really keep things intriguing and fun!! :)


Here is the sabre from Houston shown as possibly Revolutionary War period Dutch...need to check Neumann on this one :)

[celtan]

Personally, I'd rather help them submerge...

: )

more if the brethren of the sea emerge!!! :)

[celtan]

Ah yes, the San Juan de Ulua "trading" expedition..?

I believe both Drake and Hawkins were indeed pirates, since they often attacked and captured ships that belonged to nations not at war with England, such as Portugal, and initially Spain. In fact, right at the beginning of their Veracruz voyage, they had alraedy captured two ships, one of them portuguese.

They would also attack small coastal villages and plunder them at will. Indeed, a lot of the trading they conducted was of the "or else..." type.
When they could steal they did, and when it suited them, they threatened and traded.

In Veracuz, they had already taken by surprise its small local fort, and crewed the artillery pieces with their own soldiers. They had also taken hostages amongst locals which came to greet the pirates, fooled into believing they were Spanish.

The good Fortune for the locals was that the opportunely arriving Spanish fleet, which trapped Hawkins, had one fighting Galleon amongst the merchant ships.

If Drake had been captured, he would have been hung in the gallows, as any pirate would. Which doesn't negate the fact that he was an astute and courageous sailor.


Although it is a couple of centuries earlier than the weapon in question, Francis Drake got his start raiding the Spanish during a slave trading expedition run by John Hawkins. Hawkins may not have been a pirate, but his trading methods had more buccaneer than Better Business Bureau in them.

[celtan]

Hi D,

Slave trade virtually ceased to exist in Spain after 1760, when all the Islamic slaves in Spain were sold to the Sultan Of Morocco.

Spain did try to stop the slave trade within its dominions, but the American colonies refused to accept this, since most of their local industries were based in slave work. Curiously, the creole-supported revolutions did end slavery in the former colonies, albeit it was the creole financial elite which had insisted on it in their differences with the Metropolis.

:confused:

Since 1805, Spain tried to put into place abolitionist policies. Yet, even after the Revolutionary Wars in America, it was a colony, Cuba, which prevented the passing of these laws. Cuba was so profitable, that its custom revenues paid by itself all of the expenses of the Spanish Government..! What Cuba wanted, it usually got.

Heck, In the 1860s, the Cuban criollos economic elite even threatened to join the USA if Spain forced the issue.

Slavery was abolished in Spain de facto in 1873 with the outing of Amadeo de Saboya as King, who had persistently refused to take action on same, as requested by the Spanish people. Slavery was then generally condemned all through Spain.

Even so, the number of slaves and involvement in the slave trade for Spain was puny, compared to the US, England et al. Most of the slaves in Spanish territories were in fact acquired from England et al.

LBNL, IIRC, Brasil outlawed slavery even later. And if truth be known, slavery is still alive and well in many regions of the globe, even on our enlightened third millennnium.

Best

M


Hi Mark,


Interestingly Spain apparently continued in the slave trade, after the other countries had abolished it.

All the best
David

[M ELEY]

Hello Jim,

OK, so it was Dutch after all. I guess I was thrown a curve ball with that little sword I had that looked so European being W. African. At least I've learned much about certain types of African swords copying patterns of the west.
Yes, Gilkerson's books are trusted titles for naval weapons. I still hope to someday purchase a copy of Sim Comfort's Naval swords and Dirks, once it's price drops below $300!

[Jim McDougall]

Very well explained and well placed notes and great perspective on the pirate and slaving topics Manolo!! Your knowledge in the history of these regions is always impressive, and I always appreciate the detail you add.

Mark, curves are pretty much to be expected :) look at the outcome with my 'Confederate' adventure with the West African sword moved to the companion thread, Dmitry has presented what appears to be the perfect blade source....oh well. I sorta liked the Confederate idea....but I guess it's better for movie scripts :shrug:

The Sim Comfort book is definitely something to aspire to, but I fear these type books dont usually come down, unless they get reprints or subsequent editions.

All best regards,
Jim

[Dmitry]

Sim Comfort's book will never come down in price, unless you manage to track one down on a used market. It will only go out in price, once it sells out. Complete 2 vol. Annis and May sets routinely go for $500 today.

[M ELEY]

I did like your theory of a Confederate origin and I still feel strongly that ALL opinions and theories should be entertained until something difinitive can be suggested. Regardless, that is a very cool sword. Civil War is not my specialty, so I watched the thread with much interest, if nothing valuable to add. I still enjoy the detective work involved in all of these threads. That's half the fun after all...

Dmitry, I have no doubt you are probably right. Sooooo...do you happen to have a used copy of Sim's book? ( :D ;) ). Jus' kiddin.

BTW, the sword arrived today and it's a nice piece. Happy with it despite the damage to the guard. It is the Dutch Marine. The original pattern with 3 barred hilt can be seen in Neumann's, S48. This later version had 2 bars. No marking on blade whatsoever...suggesting Gilkerson's (and others) theory that it is one of the 1300 "Dutch naval swords" shipped to the U.S. Navy/Marine Corp during the 1790-1800 period. The Dutch pieces not for export were heavily marked (I have seen a few). The ONLY thing is my acquision does have fullers for the length of the blade. Needs more research as the sketch in "Boarders Away" doesn't appear to have them. Most naval swords of the period didn't have fullers, but again, more research...

[M ELEY]

LOL! :)