Sumatran / Bugis ID

[Moshah]

Good day guys.

This might be a rather foolish thing to ask.

But then again, I was neither good at IDing blade's origin, so here it is.

Could you guys ID whether this blade's a Sumatran or a Bugis?

It was in the posession of a German living in the Indonesia, who bought this 40 years ago there. Perhaps some of you guys have seen this blade...

Thanks in advance.

Moshah

[David]

These two things are not exclusive. It is possible to have a Bugis blade that is also Sumatran. :)
I can certainly see the Bugis influence in this blade. Beautiful hilt as well. What does the sheath look like?

[BluErf]

hmmm... the blade form looks familiar...

[Sajen]

Can be from both origin.

[Moshah]

David, purposely I didn't attached the sheath because it suggests bona-fide Bugis..
:)

However, sheath can be deceiving, I never relied on them alone..

Kai Wee, which form is familiar to u? Mind sharing it here?

BTW, could it be Palembang?

[Sajen]

Bugis Riau? :shrug: Which material is the handle?

sajen

[Moshah]

Hi Sajen,

The hilt is sea ivory, I've been told. Looks like a Palembang hilt, wasn't it?

I don't know very much about Bugis keris, didn't see very much good example as well, but I feel that this piece was no Bugis.

Was the sogokan is familiar to bugis keris?

BTW, the hilt, close-up:

[David]

Wow, the hilt is really sweet!
Moshah, the Bugis were all over the area. They had settlements everywhere. There were Bugis in Sumatra as well as many other areas. The Bugis were a seafaring peole. They got around. But the sheath looks Sulawesi to me. :shrug:

[Sajen]

Very nice hilt but don't need to be from Palembang, every other region of Sumatra is possible, my 2 cent opinion.

[kai]

Hello Moshah,

Congrats, nice keris!

The carving work on this nice Jawa Demam is not typical for Palembang and does show some Bugis influence IMHO (carving details like the pattern on the throat).

Also, I wouldn't rule out a Sulawesi origin of the blade. Have been wrong before though... :o

Regards,
Kai

[Moshah]

Well fellas, it ain't mine yet...

However, the hilt's carving is something really new to me. And it looks like modernized motives being used. Pardon my knowledge, but that's what I see.

Is the carving only have Bugis' motives on the throat, instead of the whole carving works, Kai?

Yeah, David, Bugises were seafaring people, and now I understand why their influence is everywhere...BTW which part of the sheath are Sulawesi? The pendok? or the sampir / wronko?

[Sajen]

I still vote for Bugis Riau, the keris have Bugis and Sumatra influence. Warangka and pendokok looks Bugis and pendok looks sumatran while the hilt have influence from both and the blade seems to be sumatran. I think that it is a very nice old keris, so far you can see it by pictures.

Detlef

[Moshah]

I believe it is a good keris too, detlef. (or should i called u sajen?)

If I was not mistaken, I can see that the blade has been warang / etched / stained. If it was a bugis-riau keris, do it still need the warangan? Didn't by undid the warangan, the pamor can't be seen clearly like this?

What pattern of pamor is that? I think I've seen such pamor in some sumatran kerises, but I dunno what name it goes...

If it was an old keris, it was so lucky to be in right hands, since very little trace of damages can be found there... :)

[Sajen]

Moshah,

Detlef is fine, sajen is my user name.

I don't know if you have seen this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8761

Ok, it's a Sumatra keris (like I believe that's your's blade also) and I think that your blade have a very nice pamor and it don't will look nice like this without warangan. I don't know if Bugis blades have had originally a warangan but BluErf for example have a great knowledge about this and will be able to answer this question. I personally like it by keris from all region when they etched. Like you see in the link above the pamor is better visible.

The pamor on your keris seems to be some sort of Wengkon Untu Walang, but I am not very sure and I am not an expert. :D

Like I write before, it's a very nice keris in a good state and I would be happy when it belongs to my collection! :) ;)

Regards,

Detlef

[Moshah]

I think you got a point there, Detlef.

Because of the norm, I've seen most bugis keris without its etching and on certain point, it is nice to see it like that.

But if the pamor is traceable and outstanding, etching seems to be just fine, as in case of your palembang gonjo iras blade... ;)

Meanwhile in this case, perhaps do nothing is best :D

It is a keris in a good state, but do it really have some ages? It doesn't look new, nor did it looks too old as well...

[Sajen]

I think that it's an old one, but very difficult to say only by pictures.

BTW, which material is the pendok?

[Moshah]

I think it is silver, since there are blacky patch all over it. I could be mamas as well, but I have very limited knowledge on identifying one.

I must have some age, but detlef how could you ID that?

[Moshah]

I just got some opinion regarding of this keris:

The hilt and wronko is Bugis. Sheath is Sumatran.

Blade is Javanese, of dhapur Menderang, pamor Unthu Walang.

Somebody of extensive knowledge of Javanese keris might can approve this theory or not.

As my knowledge are limited, I wouldn't say it's a Javanese blade because it doesn't look like one.

I might be extremely wrong, however....

[David]

Yeah, David, Bugises were seafaring people, and now I understand why their influence is everywhere...BTW which part of the sheath are Sulawesi? The pendok? or the sampir / wronko?
Here is a Sulawesi keris. The motifs on the pendok are extremely similar to yours. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

It is not a Javanese blade. Having said that I will add that from the pic I don't know what it is. There are Eastern Island elements, Bugis elements, and Sumatra elements---even a touch of Bali. At the moment I wouldn't be prepared to back anything.

Silver is very easy to ID with test acid. If you do not have your own test acid, a jeweller can ID silver in two seconds flat.

The difference in value between silver of any grade and mamas, nickel silver, white brass, silver plate, and any other look-a-likes is immense. A bottle of test acid costs almost zilch. Fifty years ago I decided that self protection was the best policy and bought a little bottle of test acid, I've never been without one since.

Personally, I think this keris is a dealers melange---pieces from different places mated for purpose of sale.

[Moshah]

Whoa, David, now that is surely a Sumatran sheath! It is really identical!

Alan, when u mentioned easter island, now i remember why this piece reminds me of something else. ;)

It surely has numerous different influences, but still now we can't really confirm where the blade should be coming from.

[Sajen]

Whoa, David, now that is surely a Sumatran sheath! It is really identical!

Alan, when u mentioned easter island, now i remember why this piece reminds me of something else. ;)

It surely has numerous different influences, but still now we can't really confirm where the blade should be coming from.

Not a Sumatra pendok, it is a Bugis like David want to show you!

Detlef

[Gustav]

In some features similar keris lurus from Malay Art Gallery's sold items: http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/kerisgallery/keris_bugis_banyu_seaivory.htm
with pejetan (slightly different), sogokan, eroded greneng with ron dha nunut and eroded jenggot on a similar kembang kacang, tikel alis and sraweyan. Probably somebody can correct me.

Also for this keris blade a Sulawesi provenience is probably very questionably. It looks more like a bugis influenced culture and not bugis to me. But I must apologise, I simply have not enough knowledge to build an opinion.

[A. G. Maisey]

Easter Island??

[Moshah]

My bad, Detlef. What I meant to say is that David has shown me an identical motives to the pendok of the keris that I am posting.. :o

Hi Gustav. Thank you very much on your opinion. I can see that you have valid ground about that. The two kerises have quite similar kembang kacang / belalai gajah, and sogokan also bears resemblance...but why would you address is as "bugis-influenced culture" instead of a bugis?

Well, Alan, pardon my typo there...definitely it's not going to go as far as Easter island! This is why I hate to write on a laptop, where the keys are dead flat! :o :D

[A. G. Maisey]

I loathe laptops.

An invention of Satan.

[Moshah]

I can see why, Alan.

However I have made the devil's pact since last year by purchasing one. ;)

[Gustav]

Dear Moshah,

I just thought, the Sorsoran-features are rather plain and the overall shape to, I would say, "handsome" for a Bugis. The primary influence for this blade for me is Javanese, the secondary Bugis.

But as I wrote, I didn't have enough knowledge to build an opinion, so it is my fault to have write something about this subject at all.

[David]

My bad, Detlef. What I meant to say is that David has shown me an identical motives to the pendok of the keris that I am posting.. :o
Yes Moshah, and AFAIK this is a Sulawesi keris (mine), not Sumatran. :)

[Moshah]

Thanks for the input, Gustav. I really think you got a point there. This could be a mixed bag. However the kembang kacang has the same style with the sold bugis keris in Malay Art Gallery. It gets really confused now...

Pardon me mistakes, David. What I really meant is, when I see your pix it is clear that the pendoks are identical.

However I don't think it is safe to tag the blade according to its hilt and sheath. There are always the possibility of previous owner's preferences (in changing the hilts and sheath) and also dealer's intervention.

[khalifah muda]

Hi there, this blade may also be from Sumbawa. Sumbawa are well known of its creative blade.
However, it is a marvelous piece you have there.

Regards.

[Moshah]

Hi khalifah muda.

thanks for the info. However not many people associate this blade to sumbawa attribution. Most said it's sumatera, or palembang.

Could you kindly explain where and why it was a Sumbawa's blade?

Thanks for the compliment. Are you referring to the garap or the pamor or overall?

Sorry I have to ask, since I don't possess good knowledge in recognizing this keris. So I take this chance to learn from all of you guys :o

[khalifah muda]

It's overall for the blade.
For my view the hilt it shall be possessing a Sumatran/Palembang influence.
Sheath wise from my view its has a Sulawesi influence.

Hi khalifah muda.

thanks for the info. However not many people associate this blade to sumbawa attribution. Most said it's sumatera, or palembang.

Could you kindly explain where and why it was a Sumbawa's blade?

Thanks for the compliment. Are you referring to the garap or the pamor or overall?

Sorry I have to ask, since I don't possess good knowledge in recognizing this keris. So I take this chance to learn from all of you guys :o

[Moshah]

Yeah, I agree with that. Thanks for your opinion, khalifah.

Sheath is Sulawesi, and David has shown me just an exact example.

The hilt, I guess it's Sumatran / Palembang, as you do, albeit I was quite suspicious with the motives. It looks like a modern motives, and the carver seems to have the freedom to carve it out without having any strict motive to follow thru. I might be so wrong, but this is the first time I see this kind of motives on a hilt.

However the blade is still a mystery to me. Some say it's bugis riau, sumatran / palembang (I cast my vote on this), and even javanese! It could be well a mixed bag, like alan's opinion.

How about the blade? Do you really think it was a bugis sumbawa piece? Are there specific garapan / perabot that are referring to sumbawa?

[khalifah muda]

Yes, from my view, the blade is Sumbawa prototype/masterpiece as it is more to creative sort of dapur & pamor. Typical to the one i ever browsed with my pair of hands, too bad i didn't have a picture of it.

If the ricikan/greneng not worn off, it can help better in indentifying.

Some typical Sumatran/Palembang piece to share:


Yeah, I agree with that. Thanks for your opinion, khalifah.

Sheath is Sulawesi, and David has shown me just an exact example.

The hilt, I guess it's Sumatran / Palembang, as you do, albeit I was quite suspicious with the motives. It looks like a modern motives, and the carver seems to have the freedom to carve it out without having any strict motive to follow thru. I might be so wrong, but this is the first time I see this kind of motives on a hilt.

However the blade is still a mystery to me. Some say it's bugis riau, sumatran / palembang (I cast my vote on this), and even javanese! It could be well a mixed bag, like alan's opinion.

How about the blade? Do you really think it was a bugis sumbawa piece? Are there specific garapan / perabot that are referring to sumbawa?

[Moshah]

Wow, quite a nice piece you have there! Thanks for sharing those pix!

For the blade discussed, it is actually rather broad, and yes it could be a sumbawa as well. However the pamor works is not something I expect from a sumbawa blade. Pardon my limited knowledge, but I've mostly seen sumbawa with nickel pamor, and the pamor orientation is scattered and very seldom with a specific pamor, moreover pamor miring. But I just don't know, I did not seen enough sumbawa kerises to address a valid comments here, thus I just say what I see...

How about the hilt? Did you recognized the influences? It should have major influences rather than a liberty work of art, didn't it?

[khalifah muda]

For the hilt it is hard to say...very subjective....but it has some Sumatran/Palembang influence in the sense of its carving motifs. Borneo also possible. Anyway, nowadays there are alot of skillful keris makers in this region with their own creation.

Wow, quite a nice piece you have there! Thanks for sharing those pix!

For the blade discussed, it is actually rather broad, and yes it could be a sumbawa as well. However the pamor works is not something I expect from a sumbawa blade. Pardon my limited knowledge, but I've mostly seen sumbawa with nickel pamor, and the pamor orientation is scattered and very seldom with a specific pamor, moreover pamor miring. But I just don't know, I did not seen enough sumbawa kerises to address a valid comments here, thus I just say what I see...

How about the hilt? Did you recognized the influences? It should have major influences rather than a liberty work of art, didn't it?

[khalifah muda]

'Sumbawa - nickel blade' : For your info. Sumbawa do have blades which comprises of metal composite from nickel, other metals and besi baja.

For the hilt it is hard to say...very subjective....but it has some Sumatran/Palembang influence in the sense of its carving motifs. Borneo also possible. Anyway, nowadays there are alot of skillful keris makers in this region with their own creation.

[Moshah]

That's my point; I've seen most sumbawa with nickel pamors, and of course the besi baja in the middle. I've seen sumbawa with meteorite pamor too, or claimed to be of meteorite pamor. Since there is vivid differences between nickel pamor and meteorite pamor, so I take it as it is told :)

This blade pamor works are unlike any sumbawa pieces i've ever seen. Obviously no pamor gunungan / junjung darjat at the sorsoran, and I dunno but it doesn't looks like nickel too.

[David]

I've seen sumbawa with meteorite pamor too, or claimed to be of meteorite pamor. Since there is vivid differences between nickel pamor and meteorite pamor, so I take it as it is told :)
This blade pamor works are unlike any sumbawa pieces i've ever seen. Obviously no pamor gunungan / junjung darjat at the sorsoran, and I dunno but it doesn't looks like nickel too.
hmmm.... are you seem to be implying that you suspect the pamor of your keris might be from meteorite? We have had many discussions on these boards about meteoric pamor and the general consensus that i took away from those threads was that it is pretty much near to impossible to identify pamor as definitely being meteorite or not without provenance to support it. I am not sure what "vivid differences" you have noted between terrestrial nickel meteoric pamor and one should keep in mind that meteoric pamor generally is nickel, just not nickel from a terrestrial source. :)

[David]

If i had to make a call on this keris which obviously has a mix of influences working for it i think i would guess the origins of the blade as Bugis influenced Sumatran. To me the sheath is clearly Sulawesi. Does it have a tight fit? (Was it made for the blade?)
The hilt also seems Sumatran, though i agree that motifs are some that i have not seen before. :shrug:

[Moshah]

hmmm.... are you seem to be implying that you suspect the pamor of your keris might be from meteorite? We have had many discussions on these boards about meteoric pamor and the general consensus that i took away from those threads was that it is pretty much near to impossible to identify pamor as definitely being meteorite or not without provenance to support it. I am not sure what "vivid differences" you have noted between terrestrial nickel meteoric pamor and one should keep in mind that meteoric pamor generally is nickel, just not nickel from a terrestrial source. :)

No, David you got me wrong. What I am trying to say is I've seen a bugis keris with meteorite pamor (not MY keris was having meteorite pamor, I wouldn't dare to admit that unless with proper provenance too ;) ). The bugis keris with meteorite pamor belongs to someone that has learned keris from javanese experts and I did not expect people of this caliber would say something bluntly. I also seen some keris with meteorite pamor from TMII, which were told by people who do tangguhan keris there. But I am not sure 100%, you know...

However, as you said, meteorite also contains nickel but perhaps when it's used for making pamor, the proportions are different from our earthly nickels, so it does make the difference.

[khalifah muda]

hi David,

i think there's some confusion here....i'm getting confused too.. What i'm trying to say was, Sumbawa doesn't only have blade with nickel kinda layout...they have all kind of metals used. Nothing meteorite addressing MOshah's blade in this case.
:)

hmmm.... are you seem to be implying that you suspect the pamor of your keris might be from meteorite? We have had many discussions on these boards about meteoric pamor and the general consensus that i took away from those threads was that it is pretty much near to impossible to identify pamor as definitely being meteorite or not without provenance to support it. I am not sure what "vivid differences" you have noted between terrestrial nickel meteoric pamor and one should keep in mind that meteoric pamor generally is nickel, just not nickel from a terrestrial source. :)

[David]

I was really only address the suggestion that there are "vivid differences" (as in visual differences) between meteoric and terrestrial nickel pamor. I don't think there are and i am not so sure that even the "experts" can tell based on visual observation alone. In fact in our discussions here there was even a question as to whether scientific structural analysis can tell the difference as any structure inheerent to meteorite would be destroyed in the forging process. So i personally take any assertion that a pamor is meteoric with a huge grain of salt regardless of the amount of expertise the assessor might have. :shrug: :)

[Moshah]

Agreeable, David.

Some people said that the meteorite pamor can be traced not only looking, but by gently touch it (basically, touch the keris' surface), and it is meteorite if it's texture against keris' texture is rough.

I would never be sure, nor believing everything i heard, but when there is no conclusion at hand, we need something to hang on to until we find the right answer...

[Rick]

Dr Hrisoulas wrote quite an interesting post on Meteoric pamor .
Might be worth sifting through again . ;)

This is from the Classics thread, top of the page .
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html

[Moshah]

Wow Rick, thanks for the link!

That was deep and technical. But really informative ... :shrug: :shrug: :)

[Moshah]

After reading the threads of sumbawa keris by Kai Wee, I think khalifah muda could be right. It is perhaps a sumbawa piece.

Gustav's triple sogokan and Andi's (sipakatuo) blade also looks like a close call, and shows me how diverse a sumbawa can be, in styles and dapurs.