Article: Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Dedicated to my Forum pal, Wolviex ...

IMPORTANT NOTES ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF MODERN SABERS AND THE IMPORTANT ROLE OF EASTERN EUROPE AND THE HUSSAR TROOPS.

What I am trying to pursue the reader here is to observe the evolutionary development of the ancient scimitars and how it changed in the modern curved saber, who has seen the light much trough the skilled hands of the eastern Europeans, in a long lasting process from late Medieval Age all the way to the Napoleonian wars; this short article emphasizing on the missing link in the evolution of the curved swords from the phase of ancient Oriental scimitars to the modern sabers, meaning, emerging, clearly transformed by the Eastern European mélange not only but mainly by the Hungarian/Transylvanian and Polish/Ukrainian armories during the late medieval 15th century up, with a quick follow up all the way to 18th century Baroque age and beginning of Napoleonian times.
Some preliminary notes are to be made however: from all types of sabers described here, in central and eastern Europe, no style has seen a complete elimination until mid 19th century so it is worth observing that from whatever reason, from traditional nostalgia to fencing preference, every type of sword that once seen birth, it maintained an uninterrupted life until the complete elimination of battle swords contemporary to last horse mounted cavalry charges in the 19th century.
In direct tie to the development of the modern curved saber, the Hussar regiments are the quintessential and most famous bearers of the hereby weapon; they are the horse mounted cavalry troops preserving the spiritual values inspired by the medieval knights while their fashion was much different, a motley attire inspired by that of the Oriental potentates including the weaponry, hence its curved saber, complete fashion with most expensive predator furs (lion, leopard, bear, tiger, wolf) and most exotic and expensive feathers (stork, eagle or heron) readily available (photo A & B).
Their existence began as a product of the Hungarian-Transylvanian kingdom in the15th century but the history of the saber goes further in the mists of history.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Curved swords have existed in the Old World previously to the migratory invasions like the Greek kopis, Thracian machaira or Dacian sica and others but most of them curved outward and none of them part of scimitar family until the Ottomans and Indo-Persians.
The curved saber indubitably has reached Europe from the Asian steppes and the Caucasian plateau somewhere around 9th century via migratory nations likely the Magyars, perhaps under Alanic influences (photo 1). This type, with few differences, mainly in decoration is present in Caucasus (Turkoman nations) and the eastern steppes of Ukraine (Mongol-Tartaric nations) known as “Tcherkesso-Tartar scimitar” (photo 2) and it directly influenced the later “ormianka” (photo 3) and “karabella” (photo 4) sabers, cousins of the Ottoman “kilij”. The blade design interfered with previous European medieval straight sword (photo 5) which inspired longer quillions and larger blades.
Starting 13thcentury the Turko-Mongols were constantly raiding via the steppes of Ukraine in all Poland, Hungary and neighboring countries carrying their “Tartar scimitars”.
In the following century, it was the Ottoman Empire that started their quest for expansion in Europe and after the failure of the lame crusades, like Nicopolis (1396), the observant Transylvanian ruler John Hunyadi (Janos Hunyadi/Hungarian, Ioan de Hunedoara/Romanian) realizes how unfit and inept the heavy full clad armor cavalry charges is and starts enlists groups of lightly armored troops styled and equipped much after his enemies as many eastern Europeans were in the service of the Ottoman Empire or in direct contact with the Tartars and already adopted their equipment being inspired by the Ottomans like Turkish sipahi or deli troops and so, the reformed “militia portalis” of John Hunyadi evolves in the famous "Black Army" (Hung. - fekete sereg) of his son, king Mathias Corvinus, incorporating for the first time the "Hussars" and ethnic wise, the first ones seem to be the Serbo-Croatians, apprehendedly named racowie (transl. n. :Serbs from the Ras province) (photo 6a & 6b ) and they served in both kingdoms of Hungary and Poland ; perhaps even the very word "hussar" in origins, disputably, comes from the Serbian word "gusar" meaning n. "brigand, rogue" .

[Radu Transylvanicus]

The Hussar regiments are the quintessential and most famous bearer of the European curved sword, they are the horse mounted cavalry troops preserving the spiritual values inspired by the medieval knights while his fashion was much different, a motley attire inspired by that of the Oriental potentates including the weaponry, hence its curved saber complete with most expensive large feathers (stork, eagle or heron) predator furs (lion, leopard, bear, tiger, wolf) and most exotic and expensive feathers (stork, eagle or heron) they can obtain (photo 7). They existed in other Eastern European countries under different names like calarasi (raiders) in Walachia (photo 8- not available now) or Greek-Albanian stradioti (photo 9).
On the other hand, Poland, in very late 14th, early 15th century, allies with Lithuania and subdues the vast Ukraine, who was also home of the Cossacks and the “Golden Horde” of Crimean Tartars and tremendous interaction in weaponry started and we can observe in the Polish Commonwealth a fantastic variety array of saber montures and blade types inspired by neighboring nations as far as Persia but those are only influences and Hungary & Poland emerged and should be granted as being the main stable ground for the innovations and the emergence of the modern European fencing and saber.
All these changes at the time when the rest of mainstream Europe was still using medieval straight swords, or other types like “schiavonna” (ironically another eastern European weapon) based broad swords for battle.
A solid link in the consolidation of the Hungarian/Polish armamentarium happened when Transylvanian ruler Stephen Báthory (1533-1586) became king of Poland and reformed the Polish cavalry, mainly the famous “winged hussars” (photo 10) and the boot hilt (photo 11) became standard and started being known as the “Hungarian-Polish style” saber.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

It was customary in Poland that the nobility (szlachta) would produce and carry sword inspired by the one their kings carried and named the style after him the main types being: (photo 12) "batorowka" after Stephen Báthory (having classic boot like hilt), "zygmuntowka" (photo 13) after king Sigismund (Zygmunt in Polish), "janowka" (photo 14) after Jan Sobieski or "augustowka" after August II, elector of Saxony for example.
And so in the very early 16th century the Eastern European with the core in the armorial centers of Hungary and Poland that new curved cavalry saber dissociates herself entirely from the Oriental scimitars by not only proportions and decorations but by adding completely new elements like reinforcing butt plates (in Pol. n. kapturek) in the 15th century, thumb rings ( in Pol. n. paluch)(photo 15) and in the late 16th century partially (photo 16) or completely (photo 17) closed knuckle guards (in Pol. n. kablak glowny) in the same late 16th century. The knuckle guard is likely an element inspired from the decorative chain-link finger guard (photo 18a & 18b) adopted by Eastern Europeans from Turko-Persian sources.
The paluch (thumb-rings) seemed to have lost its popularity after the 17th century but the rest of the elements remained and have been completely incorporated in a new weapon, the European curved saber, completely distinct and different from its Oriental counterpart and its successful deeds quickly had her adopted by most of Western Europe, America and rest of the world as standard for their battle swords with few exceptions.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

In the mid 17th century the butt-plate started extending all the way to the quillions (photo 17) making the metallic assembly of the hilt look like a one piece solid completely enclosed protection , a style so different from the incipient scimitar montures.
Worth mentioning is that up to 17th century (some parts even later) many cavalry trooper carried a secondary weapon, an oversized straight long sword named kontchar (a term that not 100% safe to use but scholars tend to nowadays) used to pierce chainmail and breech trough enemy lines, which proved less convenient than the classic lance; the lance was a weapon almost forgotten by the cavalry of western Europe in the 17th and 18th century until the amazing grace and force of Polish uhlans (lancers) amazed Napoleon and immediately reintroduced them lasting one more good one hundred years.
Another improvement of the hilt is the use of ray, shark (photo 20) or other similar skins that provide superior grip in battle or the use of wire wrap over leather providing similar qualities, the last being encountered before in Europe and therefore not completely new.
That is the beginning of the ,,epee a la Hussarde,, or Hussar style saber (photo 19) who was adopted quickly by all most powerful armies of Europe from Hungarian by Austrians then Prussian, French and British and ended up glorified by the Napoleonian Era wars (photo 20) and in the 18th century it ceased to be ,, Hungaro-Polish,, and it became the European curved saber hence its mainstream adoption as it started expanding west via the armies of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and its conflicts in the 17th century and culminating with the ever popular sabers of ,,Blucher,, type (see photo 21) which are nothing but ,,epee a la Hussarde,, , a Hussar saber.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

In the end, not only have the mighty super powers of the Napoleonian Wars adopted the Polish-Hungarian Hussar sabers but they copied even their flamboyant attire, military organization, fencing (photo 22) , style of riding along with their bold ways of life, from the Great Britain to France (photo 23) and Russia modeled their armies accordingly. These late key design elements incorporated in the stirup hilt and cleaving blades remained little changed until late 19th century when firearms put an absolute end to the cavalry charges and real battle sabers became bygone, declining into them strictly parade and ceremonious pieces we know today.
That being said, the cigar is finished and my Hennessy snifter is empty, hopping that I sparked some interest in you. ...

[Mare Rosu]

RADU, :) :cool:
Let me be the first of many to thank you for this history lesson!
Where in the world do you get this information? The time and energy to just post this information is mind boggling.
Regardless, it is to me a great lesson in history, my learning curve is moving up, thanks to you sir. :D

Wolviex With a friend like Radu you cannot go wrong. Even as a curator in a great museum you just got a lesson in history on the curve sword. :)
Gene

[Rivkin]

Thanx a lot ! Very informative and like teenage girls are saying - "it's like totally cool" !

1. Circassian-Tataric scimitar - wow, it's really an interesting connection. The thing I don't understand however is that the peak of Circassian nomady belongs afaik to the peak of Khazarian and may be early Kipchaq domination, and certainly predates the formation of Tatarian conglomerate - do you know why this particular term is being used ?

2. I thought that most of the hussar swords where adopted as such by Britain and Prussia well before the napoleonic wars ? Cocnerning making them fashionable, I think mameluk swords/mameluk guards where just as inspirational (for example the Marine sword).

Again, Thank you !

[TVV]

Great job Radu, just one minor note: I believe the curved sabre first reached Europe in the 7th or perhaps even the 6th century carried by the turkic tribes, migrating to Europe: Avars first, and then the Protobulgarians, as there are specimens dating to that time excavated in nowadays Bulgaria and Hungary, and I would assume in Romania too. Nevertheless, you are absolutely right that it is turkic in origin.

[wolviex]

Thank You! Thank You! Thank You ! :D

Your reply on my thread about hussar sabre is ASTONISHING! You were worried you cannot repay me for that thread, but this is PRICELESS.

Being in shock I'll keep silence for a while, during I'll try to prepare more sensible reply.

P.S. Radu! Did you get my message "Great expactations..." about hussar sabre, I still see it as unconfirmed.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Thank you all for such kind words and quick replies, I will try my best to send a note to all concerns or questions emerging :

Mare Rosu: Thank you for the praise and as far as Wolviex, he was rather help and inspiration :) ! Just like you with the sword of Stephen the Great, my brother !

TVV : Cheers for the nice feedback, remember this is pretty much just a study made by me now back to your reply I know that Magyars for example came as early as 5th century but the earliest scimitaric sabers I know belong to 9th century; makes perfect sense what you say that should be some earliear one but thats how far I got so far and looked mainly to teritorry of Ukraine, Ruthenia or Moldavia to find the earliest examples considering going on presumption that like migration they came north of the shores of Black Sea. Please bring photos, literature, source or theory if you know of something earliear

Wolviex : My dear friend, dont be too good to me, see if any faults and lets see where can we go with these ideas...
As far the szably copy after speaking with you I agreed and did not wanna bleed financialy for such stuff.
Do you have any pics of augustostowka , that my friend, I could not find any on any book in my library, even for the notion itself I hold you personally responsible for putting it in my head :D
P.S. I hope wolviexowka is fine and you had a good Christmas ...

Rivkin : The European scholars (mainly French and Russian) reffer to it as the “Tcherkesso-Tartar scimitar” with slight more geographic vs. ethnological emphasis, my friend .
Inspirational is great as long as its not pretty much copycat ( Modern curved cavalry sabre story vs. the USMC mamluke sword or The 1831 Pattern British General Officers Ivory Hilted Scimitar (fancy name isnt it, :D you thought ,,Polish-Hungarian sword,, was a long name) hereby mentioned : http://www.mca-marines.org/Gazette/2003/03mcdougall.html and lets not forget they werent much meant for battle but rather parade while the ones in the article dodged anything from the Ottomans trying to conquer Vienna or helped Napoleon conquered Europe.
Yes, the Hussar sword were prior to Napoleon but like I mentioned in here ( quote ) : That is the beginning of the ,,epee a la Hussarde,, or Hussar style saber (photo 19) who was adopted quickly by all most powerful armies of Europe from Hungarian by Austrians then Prussian, French and British and ended up glorified by the Napoleonian Era wars (photo 20) and in the 18th century it ceased to be ,, Hungaro-Polish,, and it became the European curved saber hence its mainstream adoption as it started expanding west via the armies of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and its conflicts in the 17th century ...

[wolviex]

Radu!
It's midnight in Poland, so please let me give you only few minor notes to your article. Tomorrow, with a good luck and a little more time (I'm during flat repir and removal) I'll bring photo of Augustowka sabre and a few notes about "winged" hussars.


Starting 13th century the Turko-Mongols were constantly raiding via the steppes of Ukraine in all Poland... [/I]

... and exactly not all but only south of Poland (mainly provinces of Little Poland and Silesia). The Monghols army (called in Poland Tartars) gained Krakow, but could't succesfully siege Krakow's church of St. Adalbert. Then they moved west to the Silesia, where were stopped by army of prince Henryk the Pious (1241 year). Polish prince was killed on battlefield but reduced Mongols army retreated from Poland.

sword inspired by the one their kings carried and named the style after him the main types being: (photo 12) "batorowka" after Stephen Báthory (having classic boot like hilt) [/I]

Of course during and after reign of king Batory, "classic" sabres were most popular, so it's not extraordinary that this were the sabres which mostly bearing Batory's name or bust on the blade. To be exact the sabres were very often rehilted, even in my museum should be a sabre with classic hussar closed hilt with Batorowka blade, and it's still Batorowka. So it is a blade with specific inscription what made a sabre Zygmuntowka, Batorowka etc, not a hilt.

Worth mentioning is that up to 17th century (some parts even later) many cavalry trooper carried a secondary weapon, an oversized straight long sword named kontchar (a term that not 100% safe to use but scholars tend to nowadays) used to pierce chainmail and breech trough enemy lines [/I]

It's KONCERZ in Polish , estoc in English, I think (anyway this is the word used in Poland to described in English this sword). It was very long, up to 150 cm, carried under the left leg, attached under the saddle. Becouse it was very long, it wasn't possible to draw it up with one move, it was necessary to make two moves, catching the blade with the second one (o boy! I hope it's comprehensible with my English :o )

Anyway, You did great job here, and I'll become jealous about frequency. Now, when I'm writing this, you've crossed a barrier of 100 viewers, in one day :D . I tell you, I'll be jealous ;)

Best regards

[Jim McDougall]

Radu,
Extremely colorful montage!!! and colorfully written text as well!
Seeing these wonderful photos brings back happy memories of reading in all of these books about the fantastic tales of dashing horsemen of Eastern Europe (your library seems most impressive!).You seem rightfully proud of your heritage and you have done a great job of presenting all this material.
I agree with the note that it is amazing that you can put together so much information and especially illustrations! I recognize so many of the illustrations but get frustrated when I can't find the source...a couple I did locate for future reference for the readers and I think it is important to note or caption these illustrations:
Photo B: is an officer of Bans Cavalry Regiment under Col.Nikolai Lodron, 1697
This appears in "Croatians in the Thirty Years War 1618-1648" by V.Vuksic & D.Fischer (Military Illustrated #63,Aug.1993). Obviously this antedates the period of the article but apparantly the illustration refers to a later event while costume remains standard.

* It is important to note that the Croatians and Hungarians often served together as mercenaries, especially in the 18th century for Austria and in the famed Pandour regiments.

Photo 23: A painting titled "Officer of the Imperial Guard Charging ,1812" by Theodore Gericault (1791-1824). Obviously a Napoleonic French officer and the original hangs in the Louvre. It is one of my favorite paintings, and a copy hangs in my den directly in front of me. It is to me one of the most exciting and quintessant cavalry paintings.

I know it would take a lot of room to add these notes to the illustrations but it would be very helpful and informative to what you have already completed.

***Thank you for noting my article on the Marine Corps mameluke sabres!!!

There has been considerable debate on the overall history of the development of the sabre and much of what exists remains speculative.However the period you focus on with the proficiency of Eastern European cavalry and thier direct influence on British and German cavalry at the end of the 18th century is extremely exciting and colorful, as you have well described. Rivkin's note that this influence did certainly predate the Napoleonic period is correct, with various sabres in use by some German states and the British M1788 sabres which precluded the M1796 sabres (considered the first regulation pattern).

* The schiavona actually more Balkan than specifically Eastern European, and evolved as a heavy straight sword with fully developed basket hilt used by Dalmatian mercenaries in the service of the Doge of Venice (the term loosely means Slavonic in that dialect).

* 'scimitar' is an early term for curved sabre that evolved from transliteration and does not actually refer to a distinct sword form, although it often appears in literature as a descriptive term (see Burton, "Book of the Sword" 1884, p.126. Burton allows use of the word, but in the Victorian period its use by writers was commonplace.

TVV's note on early arrival of curved sabres in Europe is also well placed ;with nomadic tribes especially Avars by 7th c. and these were known to the Franks as well with the curved sabre of Charlemagne. The more complete dynamics of the actual evolution of the curved blade is less clear, with Turkestan considered a likely region which may hold early evolution of these.

Another interesting resource for this topic is:
"Polish Sabres: Thier Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski
In "Art, Arms and Armour" Vol.I 1979-80, Ed. Robert Held, pp.221-237

Best regards,
Jim

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wolviex: If you look on photo B, the Hussar is wearing a koncerz (as far as the denomination, the lingvistics are up to the sources: Polish koncerz, Hungarian hegyestor Ukrainian/Russian kontchar French estoc de hussard. They measure between 4ft to 5 1/2 ft a fearsome piercing weapon, forget about fencing with it and therefore more of a lance than a sword, the way I see it, definatelly a distinct weapon; it was used in western Europe until mid 17th century while in Eastearn Europe (from Austria to Russia) while we fought a different enemy cavalry, the Turk, they lasted one more century past western Europe (has nothing to do with ,,slow armorial evolution,, like it made me laugh when I heard some saying) ...
As far as Polish royal personalised swords (batorowka, janowka, augustowka, wolvixowka :rolleyes: ) , cheers for the info, see thats where I need your help the most, visual and info wise, until I talked to you and researched after knew nothing about it, so I summon you to blow the dust on those old Krakowian manuscripts you seat on and let the knowledge see the light !
Thank you again for being such a trooper (n. - friend) !
P.S. Your English is fine, you make more sense than most of my coleagues at work, if you excuse yourself one more time, i`m gonna slap you ! :cool: :eek:

Jim : thank you for the kind words and youre welcome abot the linking the ,,Mameluke swords,, article. To be honest I had no ideea it was yours, which only makes it even cooler now looking back. It is rock solid, creme de la creme in the matter, I donnot know of any better on script or on-line, too bad for me, I wouldve been the next one after you to do it ! (by the way, were you a Marine ?).
As far as the schiavonna, innitially yes but let me tell its use was more extensive than you (and I once...) thought. Anyway, just like ,,The South,, is part of US , the Balkans are part of Eastearn Europe ( also by saying by not saying the Balkans when you reffer to schiavonna you avoid giving the impression that the Turks are ,,in,, this one too ...

As far as Scimitar description I think I got closer than anyone (my apologies for this vulgar display of lack of modesty... :D ) when I personally said :
Scimitars ,,a la carte,, are the large, one handed, Oriental, convexly curved and pointed sabers with a front facing pommel on a pistol hilt and four star shaped guard with quillions, fencing wise meant for cutting and slashing but also capable of thrusting to a limited extent. They were the most popular type of saber ever created spaning overfive centuries of life and encompassing half the world where they can be observed, mostly but not only in Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, eastern Europe and northern Africa. Most known types are : kilij, pala, talwar, karabella, saif and shamshirs but many others do exist.

As far as origins in Europe, the times I agree with but to my knowledge the Avaric nations had straight, while it was the Alanic tribes that had curved swords ... wont bet my life on it, though, I am more of Medieval and up type of guy ...

[wolviex]

Radu!
I need a little more time to gather some informations about "dedicated" sabres, so please be patiente. I wonder - do you want me to continue this thread or Batorowkas, Janowkas ... are worth of starting new thread - what is your feeling about it?
Regards

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wolviex, why dont we (you mainly... :rolleyes: ) start a new one , its related but another subject !
For those who would like to see it, here is one more hussar Koncerz (estoc) image, look for the long sword tucked into the saddle
The romantic painting depicts a Polish Winged Hussar and was executed by Alexander Orlowsky.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Funny enough, I have meet an Estherhase, at that time living in Denmark, now, I think he is living somewhere else. Some years ago (about thirty) I even saw their castle in Austria. Very interesting thread. They were at the time a very powerfull family.

Jens

[wolviex]

Let me bring a photo of koncerz/estoc too :)

But it isn't thread on development of estocs - is it? :D

PS. I will start a new thread if I'll be able to gather interesting informations. I was even thinking weeks ago, about starting a series of articles about weapons in Poland. But being busy, I realize also, that repeating bookish informations for people who are meanly intersted in Polish weapons is simply art for art's sake (it is becouse this forum gather people who are mainly collectors - and collecting Polish armament today is almost impossible :( ), so I think I'll leave the idea on better times.
Regards

[Jim McDougall]

Radu,

Thank you very much for your kind words on my article on the mameluke sabres. Although I was not a marine, I have good friends who were, one who was a wing commander in a Marine fighter squadron. In a discussion where he was proudly showing the sabre he was given, he asked to know more about the history. I put together some research which evolved into an article, which I was very proud of when it was accepted by "The Marine Corps Gazette" for publication. While they used my text unedited, they used their own photos, and I would have liked to add illustrations of the swords discussed. I am extremely proud of our Marines and all of our armed forces. My son and son in law both serve in the Army presently and I am naturally most proud of them.

On the Schiavona: I dug further into files and find that you are most correct in the Eastern European attribution for these distinctive swords. I found this;
"...if, as seems probable, swords of this type were intoduced into Italy from Hungary, perhaps through Dalmatia, they are clearly very likely to have been called 'Slavonic swords'. We may be reasonably certain therefore of the original meaning of the term 'spada schiavona'".
"A Schiavona Rapier"
Claude Blair
Journal of the Arms & Armour
Society London
Vol.V, #12, Dec. 1967
More interesting is discussion by David Nicolle (Military Illustrated #134, July,1999, p.36, "Last Roman Elite") where he notes this particular term was first seen used in a Dalmatian will of 1391, and it described blades of light slashing form exported to Balkans and hilted locally. The more developed hilt forms most associated with schiavona evolved latter 15th c.

It seems quite a few of the illustrations you are using come from Iaroslav Lebedynsky's "Les Armes Traditionelles de l'Europe Centrale" (Paris, 1996).
It is interesting to note that in this book, Lebedynsky illustrates a schiavona along with a discussion of sabres (p.25).
Your photo #17 appears in this book on p.55.

Re: the note on curved sabres of Alans, Avars, the line drawings you show as photo #1 appears in Lebedynsky p.18, and is captioned from top to bottom;
1.) Alan 2.) Alan , N. Caucusus 3.) Hungarian 4.) Alan-Magyar, Charlemagne's sword received by him as gift.
These would seem to support your theory on Alan swords being curved,
however there is some evidence to curved sabres for Avars as well.

A warrior from Pannonian Croatia, 9th c. is discussed in "Croatia in the Medieval Period, 9th-14th Centuries" by V.Vuksic & D. Fischer, Military Illustrated #61, June 1993, p.14:
"...a large number of the type carried by these warriors have been discovered in the Danube basin. They are about 85 cm long with a wooden handle wrapped in leather. Such a sabre, with its curved blade, was introduced into Europe by the second wave of Avar immigrants settling in the Avar-Slav state at the end of the 7th century".

On the estoc: a very good illustration of the estoc (termed 'tuck' colloquially by Western European armies) appears being carried under the right leg under the saddle in "The Polish Rider" , Rembrandts fantastic painting of 1655. It has been later discovered by Professor Zygulski that the subject of the painting was actually a Lithuanian noble (see "Polish Armies:1569-1696" , Osprey, 1987, p.5). Zygulski is also a foremost authority on the fantastic Winged Hussars of Poland who appear in numerous illustrations in this thread. I have always considered the history of these magnificent cavalrymen one of the most interesting in the study of cavalry.

The mention of Eszterhazy's hussar regiment is also fascinating and brings forward the exciting 'panache' so admired by Western European armies.
In Wagner's "Cut & Thrust Weapons" on. p.406, there is a beautiful illustration of an officers sabre of Prince Paul Eszterhazy's hussar regiment of c.1741-1775. I once had an opportunity to acquire an identical example, and still regret not getting it!!! Interesting on these is the string of pearls motif along the back of the knuckleguard.
Jens, were there any swords displayed there in the castle? I would love to see and handle one of these outstanding sabres again!!

Best regards,
Jim

[Rivkin]

The thing I wondered about is how much in adoption of Hussar sabre was a polish influence, and how much was a turkish/middle eastern influence. One can made a good case that turks used to constantly face european armies, and it would be as natural for the latter ones to adopt turkish/mameluk weaponry, as to adapt a polish version of originally turkish weaponry.

USMC Mameluk sword is probably not a typical case, but that's the one for which the mameluk roots are unambigious.

P.S. It would be almost certain that russian and caucasian swords would for example be influenced by both western and eastern versions - for each shashka with a gurda or "owka" blade one can find an iranian shamshir.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wolviex: My dearest friend, your thoughts dont sound like a plan... I think you should do it and we all should contribute ... I am just so excited to rejoice forces with ones that have similar heritage and interests and I much feel like after that long, darn years of Iron Curtain clichee crap, I want to open the eyes of the rest of the world (and to or own people too) to look no further for the glory and beauty then in own garden; I truely believe anyway that in the next years one amazing eastern Europe will be part of new Renaissance Era and will be a one verry merry EU ... avant-garde just watch !
I think there should be a larger, more aware pan-Eastearn European conscience to better serve our interests and manage our potential ... how about a future new encyclopedic book on the weaponry and the military costume of our part of the world, since its so rich in heritage ...
Well, maybe its time I should wake up now :o
On a side note, I think the world, art, history in general makes a bit too much of the ,,West,, as being the Old continent leaving the rest in shade ...
What can I say : while in the left hand, Mother Europa carried its defensive shield , in the right arm she had plenty of room for an oportunistic glorious sword, right ? ...
Just like Americans say : remember Alamo ! ... we should shout : remember Vienna !!! `cause today, otherwise, Bin Laden might`ve been just as well Belgian and be not so famous :D ...
And let me say : those koncerz you posted are really sweet , the exact ,,a-la-carte,, classical in every detail, perfectly preserved, just like they wouldve dismounted off the classical paintings !

Rivkin: I am not sugesting the Eastern Europe as the ,,ground of transition,, for the modern saber , they are :cool: the makers of the modern saber ! Western Europe was nothing but the ones that adopted a superb, finished and succesfull product ... The proto-type of the modern saber and the inspiration was undoubtely like I mentioned the Turkic scimitars introduced in Europe via invasions.
Myself, I can think of the Turkoman nations as the great-grandfather of it but definatelly they cannot claim the parenthood of modern curved saber ...
If we would write a brief history about the making of this weapon, one could dispense of the Asian prototype theories but cannot avoid in anyway the Hungaro-Polish testimony ...
A somehow off-line paralel can be made with Japanese swords : the proto-types undoubtely were Koreean & Chinese straight swords evolving into what became the katana (nin-to if you preffer...) , should one really wonder how Chinese a Katana or a Wakizashi is ... Can China really claim the nin-to, even though she was the craddle ?[/FONT]

Jim M. : I admire your persuasive nature and help with offering the sources of the ilustrations I used, perfectly right on the very detail, just like you were next to me when I scanned them ! I must`ve had you nervously pulling a few books around and refresh your French until you nailed it, did I :D ?
P.S. Thank you for researching and confirming my notes, I feel more confident now that I have you on my side ( if there is another side anyway ...). As far as the Alanic-Avaric variation, I wouldnt sweat it so much, sometimes things are just way too bloody ancient and arguments are too damn vague... I dont feel like digging here, I`ll rather try to track the exact times when other countries started adopting the modern saber when exactly it crossed borders in Austria (very soon in this one case, anyway) and when in Germany, France, Britain, Scandinavia, Russia, USA and so on ...
Oh, and I want to see that Rembrandt painting otherwise i`ll get no sleep and you are personally responsible !!! And I mean it ! ;)

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Hey, I found it , I found it !!! REMBRANDT - The Polish Rider ... how splendid ... thank you Jim McDougall ! Here is a close up of the soldier itself with his weapons showing very good : we see the Oriental recurved bow (luk) and arrows (strzala) with sajdak quiver of undeniable Turko-Tartaric origins (I hope Rivkin reads this...) , the Hungaro-Polish szablye on left hip , in his right hand the war-hammer known as nadzaik and tucked in the saddle is the koncerz. He wears a zupan (long inner coat) and a kolpak fur hat...
We can`t blame the man (n. - Rembrandt) for trying, however, a few abnormalities exude, mainly and most important the koncerz (I know he meant to put a darn koncerz not a saber there !) is curved and ha an uncharacteristic monture (I think I am too picky after all)...
Wolviex, how did I do with the Polish names and what do you think about this painting ? I say very nice but not perfect ... szlachty without a mustache, I dont think so :rolleyes: !

[wolviex]

Prof. Zdzislaw Zygulski wrote a lot about it (there was hard discussion between him and western experts which disagreed with him saying it's not Polish rider, but he proved it) so I can search notes about it, to not repeating that what was said before. I read about it long time ago, and I just don't remember, but isn't it rider called Lisowczyk ?. This was light cavalry under the command of colonel Lisowski, which during Polish-Russian war occupied Moscow with Polish army in 1610? - I'll check it.

It's a sabre not koncerz under the leg. I'm, not sure for now if Rembrandt wanted to put it there. Koncerz, as I wrote it earlier, was under left leg.

Radu, your Polish is sehr gut :D. The only problem is the lack of Polish letters. Arrows you can write strzaly because strzala is singular. The saber is szabla not szablye and this war-hammer is nadziak. And I wouldn't be so convinced about mustache - it's a young boy anyway, and I didn't hear about sticked hairs in 17th c. Poland :D

[Rivkin]

hm. Again, I'm not exactly convinced. If it was so much an eastern european weapon, why only very few of them where in fact produced there ? At least the ones I've seen are mostly solingen. Am I wrong on this ?

Concerning chinese/japanese - japanese old straight swords are little bit more different from tachi (katana is a relatively new weapon) than kiliji from a hussar's sabre. In fact there is such thing as late chinese swords, imitating japanese technologies, and yes in this case I'll say without any doubdts that their origin is in Japan.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wolviex: A bit of a Tartaric fashioned Pole but definatelly one, as far as mustaches i`ve seen no old illustrations with Polack dudes without one (so is Hungary with the exception of King Matthias Corvinus and the Catholical clerics) regardless it was pandur, pancerny, huszaria, szlachta, hajdouks and so on ... what about Pan Wolodjowsky, shaking his right and left all the time... ? :D

Rivkin: its OK to stake out personal skepticism but how about most logical thing where were the first modern curved sabers (with classical elements) manufactured ? The first Hussars saber produced in the West like anyone would rationally expect was in Austria (probably Styria) after late 16th century, why because Eastearn European hussard brough it up there; probably Wolviex (he works for the National History Museum in Krakow, Poland as assistant-curator ) could tell you likely how made in Solingen the Hungarian-Polish hussar swords were... :) sorry, not the case until much later...
As far as the other geographical extreme, look at the photos 15, 16, 17, where in middle East have you seen before montures like that ? :rolleyes: Are those Ottoman or any Middle Eastearn sabers :D ? I really dont think I need to bring more proof in support ... Curved sabers (scimitar family) where brought five hundred years before Ottoman incursions and the scimitar itself is not an Ottoman invented produvt but the Pala and perhaps the Kilij too were ! Sabers like the Ottoman scimitars were produced in oriental-(ised) Europe massively, specially in the conquered teritories, including Hungary after the lost battle of Mohacs when much ground was under Ottoman rule and thats one related thing but different. They had a great impact and were exactly appreciated by many until late in history and between Berlin and Istanbul sometimes its harder to tell where it begun and where it ended than in case of Japan of course (a one minded, self sufficient, closed to foreigners, separated island would have its track better printed, no doubt)...
Its really not a shallow theory but a fact ... and there werent only a few but tons of them produced, mass production enough to equip armies, just probably you havent got chance to see them, I did ...

[Rivkin]

I'm not trying to prove that eastern european or polish sabre was not a precursor to a modern sabre, but I believe it's much more complicated than this - solingen and passau weapon production technologies, spanish moore influence, turks, mongols and etc. are all involved in this story.

Concerning guards - picture B shows typical muslim guard. Picture 16 - is it a mix of nimcha and karabela :) ? Picture 18 - seen many times on shamshirs.
Picture 17 is unique, but unfortunately this type of guard did not survive (I think ?) in post-Blucher times, and does not appear on all regulation patterns before it. Is it the only thing they did - they invented new guards for old swords ?

Again I would really see something of a common turkish (like in seljuk-mongol-ottoman) origin, and try to understand what are the changes in _blades_ that been made.

P.P.S. I constantly have arguments with caucasians who come with great classification of "foreign" iranian shamshir vs. "authentic" caucasian shashkas with the same idea that it's so hard to say definitely "here is something that have never seen before" - shashka is nothing more than a guard's type...

[Jim McDougall]

Wolviex,
As you note, Professor Zygulski wrote, "Rembrandts 'Lisowczyk: A Study of Costume and Weapons" which appeared in the "Bulletin du Musee National de Varsovie", VI, 1965, #2,3, p.43-67, as is footnoted in the outstanding article he wrote ; "The Winged Hussars of Poland" (Arms and Armor Annual, ed. Robert Held, 1973, pp.90-103).

In "Polish Armies:1569-1696" (1) by Richard Brzezinski, Osprey, 1987, it is noted on p.5 that Rembrandts famed "Polish Rider" has often been 'mislabeled' as an officer of 'Lisowski cossacks', noting that Chroscicki (Ars Auro Prior, Warsaw, 1981) has finally identified it as a portrait of a Lithuanian nobleman, Martin Alexander Oginski. He had the portrait painted in 1655 while studying in the Netherlands.

While this sounds like the final word on the actual identity of the subject, there is still the usual debate and speculation, but the painting is most definitely Rembrandts work.
In "Rembrandts Eyes" (Simon Schama, N.Y. 1999) notes on p.599;
"...only a gentleman of the horse would have known how to sit on the mount, Polish style, not erect but leaning forward, the right hand curled backward to grasp the head of the 'buzdygan', the battle mace, left hand on the reins".

In looking again at the painting I see that the larger sword under the riders right leg is not an estoc but a large sabre (pallasche?),and the hilt of the light sabre is visible worn on his left side. In some illustrations of hussars they are seen with the estoc under the left leg.The Islamic forces had a form of estoc or straight rapier termed 'mec', but I am not clear on if they were saddle mounted like the Eastern European estocs or carried differently. In the Sudan, in an illustration which I will have to relocate, a rider on horseback is seen wearing an Ottoman hilt sabre, and under his left leg is mounted a kaskara in the same manner as the estocs of Eastern Europe.

Radu,
Actually I recognized Lebedynsky's work immediately and simply went to the volume I had seen them in. This was one of the reasons I mentioned properly crediting the illustrations. In a discussion with him a number of years ago I asked about using one of his illustrations. He indicated he had no problem with using his illustration (referring of course to in an article) as long as it was properly credited. While this is an informal discussion forum, it is still subject to copyright legality and more than anything a matter of courtesy to credit published material. As I noted also, it is helpful to readers to have references for furthering thier own research, which is why I usually provide them with comments or notes.
You've done excellent work in this presentation! and I think brought forth an outstanding topic which has important influence on the study of the development of many ethnographic swords, not just regimental military forms.
Please keep up the good work!!!!

All best regards,
Jim

[wolviex]

Dear Friends!
My Internet is crashed, I'm completly out of free time, so (Radu!) please forgive me my absence. In short I'll try to give you all some answers.

Jim: thank you for your help about Rembrand's Polish rider. With my bookshelf packed because of removal, and because of Christmas time in Poland, it's hard to get for me any book. This isn't Lisowczyk, that's for sure, cause when this painting was made (1655 y.) this formation was disbanded from 20 years. But Lisowczyk riders looks very similiar, because it's light cavalryman anyway. The first western articles about this painting claimed that it isn't Polish rider but Christian knight and glorifications of knighthood. You're right, and prof. Zygulski proved it, this man is sitting on horse in Polish mannere, so there is no doubt (except for armament and other things) this is Polish rider. There is no doubt this was painted on real, living model of Polish nobleman. There is no sign of so many Polish armament amongst other sumptous accesorries in Rembrand's property-room, so probably this man carried it with himself. It's Oginski's portrait? - very interesting, I'll check it, because it's not the first try of identify this man. He was Rembrand's son, then someone different, now it's Oginski - we'll see :)

Radu: mustaches where important but not always, and I would call it stereotype! Fashion in Poland was changing rapidly. The Polish nobleman (szlachcic) without mustaches is shaven on western fashion. It was common that noblemen returning from west, east or where ever, were bringing new fashion styles with them - AND SOMETIMES THEY WERE RETURNING WITHOUT MUSTACHES, SHOCKING EVERY RESPECTABLE NOBLEMAN :D

Rivkin: uhh ohh, you're hardly to convince. I'll make desperate attempt to convince you.
You're absolutly right about similarity of Polish sabres from 16th century to eastern ones. You're also right it's not so easy to say "because this was that and that" and the modern sabre is pure Polish influence. But...

1. Everything lays in details. Poland in 16 and 17th century was a country of many crossing influences. Polish sabre is nothing more but product resultant of western and eastern edged weapons. So the Hungarian-Polish sabres are similiar to persian sword, thumbring were much earlier made with valonese swords, knuckleguard isn't Polish invention too, it was known many, many years earlier. But all of this crossed in Poland, and here was improved. The handle was inclined, on eastern and western weapons it was straight. The blade was curved delicate not strong like in Turkish sabres, the knuckleguard was curved on specific angle. This all was Polish improvement. The changes in shapes, styles - notice how many new styles of sabres were introduced in Poland only during 17th century! In eastern world from centuries we have got the same forms, the same shapes. Shamshir looked in 16th century similiar to that from 18th century in general. How something so permament could rapidly at the end of 17th century inspire whole Europe, then World?

2. Poland in 17th century was one of the most important countries, not only in eastern-european politics, it's obvious, just look at historical map, and realize how huge this country was in 16 and 17th cent.! Importance of Poland depended also in trade. Not only. Take a look at Polish fashion influences, Swedish noblemen were wearing on Polish mannere! Russians were speaking in Polish in high societies, etc. And the Fashion is not only clothes but in those times weaponry too!

3. "Modern sabre" was introduced to Europe at the end of 17th and beginning of 18th century. It becames rapidly popular weapon, which push out rapiers, swords to the background. Why then? Wasn't it the same time, where perfect weapon - Polish Hussar sabre was introduced (here is more about this weapon http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=67 ) and when great Polish victory at Vienna occured? It's obvious that winner's weapon is much more desired!

It not exclude influence of east, but generally indicated great role of eastern Europe on rapidly development of "modern" sabres in Europe!
4. Blades for Polish sabres were made not only in Solingen but also in Passau, Genoa, they were imported from Persia etc., but in Poland they're produced too. But all of them were made on special orders, that's why blades from genoa visible on Hungurian-Polish sabres appears only on Polish armament in 16/17th century, not in whole Europe. Anyway for me it's natural, if someone produce great stuff I'll buy it, no matter it's Polish, German or Persian.

5. If you're still not convinced I have last argument which is not substantial argument. Influence of Polish sabre on develompent of European sabre is so called historical true. It was affirmed many years ago, before the war. There is even an interesting diagram of development and mutually influences of Western, Eastern and Polish sabres, made by our expert Stanislaw Meyer (available below!) where you can clearly see how it happened. Even if you find some errors (i.e. in dating) I think generally it's ok. Anyway it's quoting even today by authorities, and no one has negate this, so it's so called historical true.
If you're still not convinced because you've different theory of development of modern sabres, share it with us. It's your turn to, maybe, change the history! :)

Best regards and HAPPY NEW YEAR

Bigger diagram is here http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/wolviex/DSCF4467.jpg

[Rivkin]

Wolviex:

Thank you very much ! I should probably clarify myself - I've always been convinced that the modern sabre is a polish influence :). Reading my previous posts, may be I was too agressive towards Radu's justification of this idea, but I'm not against the idea as it is.

What I don't agree with is that european curved swords is a product of _only_ polish/eastern european influence, and the direct eastern influence had no place in it. If I'm wrong, than I'm sorry.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Rivkin, And maybe I shouldve brought in the theory more about the ,,deli and sipahi,, influence and about ,,kurda,, or hungarian saber made under Ottoman rule, very much like the Arabian saif and so on, it wasnt in the times of migratory invasions when Orient influenced Europe in swords ...

[ariel]

Just an aside: the name the Ottoman Turks used for an estoc (koncerz) is Mec (pronounced Mech, as in "touch"). There are accounts of the French travellers mentioning this weapon and spelling it "megg" (probably, -gg was used for a "dz" sound, similar to our spelling of "kilij", "kilig", and "kilich"). An interesting tweak is that in Russian, "Mech" is a standard name for a straight, double-edged and usually heavy sword. The lighter, curved and usually single-edged ones are called "sablya" (a common origin with saber,szablya etc is obvious).
Question:
Since both Turkish and Russian languages have been profoundly influenced by the old Mongol/Altai etc dialects, was there a proto-word for a similar type of weapon in Central Asia and was there a weapon of that construction there? Some Tartar sabers still preserved in Polish/Lithuanian museums have a bayonet tip designed specifically for stabbing/armour penetration: remarkably similar to the function and structure of the koncerz.

[Yannis]

Excelent work Radu and I have to thank you, too, for it.

I have notice 2 points I need more clarification.

like the Greek kopis, Thracian machaira or Dacian sica and others

I am not sure that we can call machaira Thracian because it was spread all over greek world. The word "machaira" is still alive in greek language (means "very big knife"). The word is also in New Testament. Etymological speaking, "knife" in modern greek is "machairi" and "battle" is "machi"


and the boot hilt (photo 11) became standard and started being known as the “Hungarian-Polish style” saber

In the diagramm this very intresting boot hilt is in East side! I am curius about it, because recently I saw one in sword with typical Khevsur decoration!

[Radu Transylvanicus]

:D Yannis, why do I have the same issue with all Greeks : hey, Radu did you knew that comes from the Greek word ,,so on and so on,, ... :D dont take it personal but it becomes such a funny clichee when Greeks are negotiating the origins of everything ... it was even the theme of very succesful Hollywood movie two years ago : ,,My big fat Greek wedding,, ... but you have my promise nevertheless I will research (or try at least) the word ,,machaira,, ...

,,The boot hilt,, in the Caucasus or in Orient in general is something like our earliear ,, boomerang yataghan theory,, (am sure you remember that since it was so pro-Greek :p ) ... Eastearn Europe took influence from the western Asia but gave back a lot , believe it or not ...

Ariel : thank you for the very pertinent notes seems to me we should open a ,,koncerz, mec, kontchar,, open house round table discussion ... but if curved swords come from around Asia Minor I believe the Estoc to be a European creation at first glance ...

[Yannis]

...dont take it personal but it becomes such a funny clichee when Greeks are negotiating the origins of everything ... it was even the theme of very succesful Hollywood movie two years ago : ,,My big fat Greek wedding,, ... but you have my promise nevertheless I will research (or try at least) the word ,,machaira,, ...

My dear friend, I have seen the movie and it was big fun.

Etymology is a tool that help us to understand not only the origin of a word but sometimes the origin of an item. I didnt said "machaira" has greek origin, I just wonder if it is Thracian because it was widespread in ancient greek world. Also decent vocabularies dont have a certain etymology for the word "machaira". But it is still alive with almost the same meaning in greek language.

Sure, I dont take personal that some tenths thousands words of most european languages have greek origin. It was not my fault :D
But it was a great help in my studies :D

... ,,The boot hilt,, in the Caucasus or in Orient in general is something like our earliear ,, boomerang yataghan theory,, (am sure you remember that since it was so pro-Greek :p ) ... Eastearn Europe took influence from the western Asia but gave back a lot , believe it or not ...

Maybe in the case of this particular Khevsur sword it was more than mode. Maybe the same sword has Polish - Hungarian origin and found in the hands of Khevsur people who ornate it this way. Who knows...

[ariel]

[ From Radu

Ariel : thank you for the very pertinent notes seems to me we should open a ,,koncerz, mec, kontchar,, open house round table discussion ... but if curved swords come from around Asia Minor I believe the Estoc to be a European creation at first glance ...[/QUOTE]

Reply:That would be true if Estocs were used as true swords. In fact, they were used as sort of lances; those were aplenty in the Asian armamentarium.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Ariel any concrete examples of Asian lance-swords, perhaps hilted ( Indian bhuj or angkus or such dont count I think...)

[TVV]

Radu: I promised you a picture and here it is. It is a picture from a Byzantine manuscript depicting Bulgars slaying Christian soldiers, a few of them holding curved sabres. It dates to the seventh or eighth century. The earliest curved sabres in Eastern Europe, dating ba,ck to the 670s, are found in the burrials of nomads from Central Asia: Avars and Bulgars. I think there are also sinilar examples found at approximately the same time in Northern Caucasus that are associated with the Hazars. Since before coming to Eastern Europe all of these turkic tribes inhabited the steppes north of the Caucasus mountains, I guess this proves your main point about the lands of the origin of this weapon and the significance of Eastern Europe in its spread all over the continent. Only the date of the intorduction of the sabre is a little earlier, and the Magyars were not the first ones to carry it.
Regards,
Teodor

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Priyatel Teodor,

:rolleyes: When is this iconoclastic painting dated again ?A bit too ,,fully matured,, orthodox style with very developed christianic characters for 500s a.C. , dont you think ? personal opinion ...
As far as the birth of the sword, I agree with an earliear date set than originally mentioned but if not backed by hard evidence remains just supposition, even though we both believe in just as much and were convinced it was the case... On the other hand, however, I am rather keen to lean towards an Alanic versus an Avaric transitional origin (debated and agreed this already with our ,,brother in arms,, Jim McD. , earliear...) .
Any pre-scimitars, perhaps of Turkic origin, you can think of in any museums that would predate the ones we know already as 9th century and were found on European teritory, including Ukraine or Turkey ?

Radu

[TVV]

Oh no, deffinitely not 500 AC, it is I believe from the late 8th century. There are miniatures from the middle of the 9th century in the Chronicle of Ioan Skilica, depicting the Byzantine emperor Leo V Armenian (813-820) with a sabre, of which I am unable to find a scan right now. It would be strange for an Eastern Roman Emperor to be depicted with a weapon that was just introduced by the enemies of his Empire.
I agree with the Alanic origin, since there are linguistic evidences that the word sabre originated from an Alanic root: "shab" meaning an edged weapon in thast language. The Magyars appeared in Eastern Europe in the beggining of the 900s, or early 10th century. Since there are examples from the 9th century from the Balkans and what is now Hungary, it is clear I believe that this weapon was introduced to these places by the Avars, Bulgars and the other Turkic tribes. It is highly unlikely that the Bulgars for example came up with the design of the sabre after moving to the Balkans, so it should have been with them at least since the 7th century. Whether the sabre appeared at about that time in the Eurasian Steppes or earlier, it is hard to say.
Best Regards, as always,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Just a recap of the development of the sabre from current notes:

"...the very long, curved, narrow battle axe of Middle Kingdom Egypt (1990-1798 BC) may have been the prototype for the curved swords which the popular imagination always associates with Islam. Curved bronze swords had been in use for at least two millennia before Islam ".
"Swords of Islam" by Anthony North
in "Swords & Hilt Weapons (ed.M.Coe,
N.Y.1989), p.137
"...our knowledge of the sword of the Avars has recently been augmented by a new reconstruction of the Pereshchepina sword, which shows that it had a long straight blade and a ring pommeled hilt with vestigial quillons".
"China and Central Asia"
by Thom Richardson
(Coe, ibid.p.176)
"...the curved cavalry sword , however, probably originated in Turkestan. Perhaps the earliest representation of such a weapon appears in a frescoe from Sorcuq, usually assumed to date from the 8th century, examples excavated from graves can be dated from the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries".
Richardson (op.cit.p.176)
Richardson states further, "...the curved sword was not diagnostic of a different method of warfare, nor did it oust the straight, single edged sword in Central Asia".
On p.180 he states: "...in all likelihood, the curved sword was introduced by the Uighurs. This Turkish people, originally Manicheans, were converted to Buddhism in the mid 9th century and established a kingdom centred on Turfan and Kucha. Earliest examples of these curved swords belong to Khirghiz finds of the 10th century".
* it is noted that the frescoe which represents an event of 8th c. probably was painted much later, possibly 300 years.

This data illustrates the rather sketchy speculation on the development of the sabre as a weapon form, however it does seem to clarify that the Avars seem to have used straight blade swords. This seems likely as they are thought to have actually been the Ruan-Ruan who were driven from Mongolian regions c.550 AD and thier ring hilt swords were of probably influenced by the huanshoe dao ring pommel straight swords of Han empire China.

The Alano-Magyar sabres previously discussed from northern Caucasian regions and shown in Lebedynsky ("Les Armes Traditionelles de l'Europe Centrale" ,p.18) also include the familiar 'sword of Charlemagne' which is a sabre of 9th c. slight curved blade and extended yelman.

In "The Lore of Arms" (William Reid, 1976) it is stated, "...curved swords were common in Eastern Europe in the Middle Ages, but in the west the medieval form known is the falchion".
The falchion seems to have been essentially a straight back sword with a widened and bellied blade for slashing as the sabre.

At this point, while both heavy straight swords were in use, along with variations of sabres, it would seem that primary development of curving blades was taking place in the Islamic sphere. In "Polish Sabres: Their Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski ("Art, Arms and Armour" ed. Robert Held, Vol.I, 1979-80, p.222), it is stated, "...the first examples to find thier way to Poland might have been imported Turkish products, or Hungarian ones patterned on Turkish model, and thier appearance in large numbers should be dated from the beginning of the 16th century.In 1505, the municipal council of Cracow granted swordmakers the right to mount and furbish sabres".

OK, I didn't say a 'brief' recap:) !!
I just wanted to add some references that might help in our discussion on development of the sabre. It seems to me that the sabre has existed in varied forms concurrent with other forms of sword, and the more curved and parabolic forms of sabre gained popularity as noted from about 16th c. onward. It also seems generally held that the cavalry tactics and use of the sabre evolved in Eastern Europe influenced by Turkish horsemen and likely others from Balkan regions.

Best regards,
Jim

[TVV]

Hi Jim, the sword from Malaja Pereschepina is connected to the Bulgars before they were displaced from the North of the Caucasus by the Hazars to the Balkans, due to a ring found in the burrial bearing the name of the Great Khan Kubrat, father of the founder of the Bulgarian State Khan Asparauh. It is straight, you are absolutely right. There are straight swords, double edged or single edged found in nowadays Bulgaria from the same period, from which curved sabres have been discovered, sometimes even from the same archeological site.
In Medieval Bulgaria the sabre started to lose popularity as a weapon for various reasons, the main one I guess being the huge Byzantine cultural and material influence, and it was replaced by the straight sword by the 10th century, as the only examples of sabres discovered then are those associated with the Magyar incursions. I believe something similar happened with the sabres of the Magyars themselves: at some point they simply went out of fashion. I do not have any information whether the Cumans, an ethnicity very close to the Bulgars, had any sabres, and Russian museums tend to attribute everything associated with the Volga Bulgars to the Mongols. I agree with you that the sabre as a weapon form gained large popularity only when it was reintroduced by the Ottomans in the 16th century.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jim, the sword from Malaja Pereschepina is connected to the Bulgars before they were displaced from the North of the Caucasus by the Hazars to the Balkans, due to a ring found in the burrial bearing the name of the Great Khan Kubrat, father of the founder of the Bulgarian State Khan Asparauh. It is straight, you are absolutely right. There are straight swords, double edged or single edged found in nowadays Bulgaria from the same period, from which curved sabres have been discovered, sometimes even from the same archeological site.
In Medieval Bulgaria the sabre started to lose popularity as a weapon for various reasons, the main one I guess being the huge Byzantine cultural and material influence, and it was replaced by the straight sword by the 10th century, as the only examples of sabres discovered then are those associated with the Magyar incursions. I believe something similar happened with the sabres of the Magyars themselves: at some point they simply went out of fashion. I do not have any information whether the Cumans, an ethnicity very close to the Bulgars, had any sabres, and Russian museums tend to attribute everything associated with the Volga Bulgars to the Mongols. I agree with you that the sabre as a weapon form gained large popularity only when it was reintroduced by the Ottomans in the 16th century.

Hello TVV,
Outstanding perspective on this extremely esoteric sector of history in the Eastern European/Balkan regions. The Pereshchepina sword is apparantly from the 7th century and was discovered near Poltava in the Ukraine in village of Malaja Pereshchepina in 1912. There was a very important article written on this sword in 1985 in Russia ("On the Principles of Reconstruction of the Pereshchepina Sword", Z.Lvova & A. Seminov, in Arkheologicesksya Sbornik, Vol.26). It was compared primarily to Avar swords found in Hungarian territory. Because the blade was single edged, there was considerable attention given to what term should be applied, and some confusion had resulted in earlier discussions because of the interpolation of the terms sword and sabre. The long narrow straight swords of the Huns are also mentioned (in other works these are termed 'urepos').

I think you are right in the idea that in degree military fashion did guage with changes in power as geopolitical and cultural fusion occurred in regions. What you say about the decline of curved sabres of Magyars is very interesting, and need to look more into that aspect.

From what I understand, the Cumans presence in Bulgaria came after the Mongol vassalage (1292-95) when two subsequent dynasties of Cuman origin evolved. By c.1340 this ended with Turkish invasions.The Turks ruled from 1396-1878. I did find a sabre attributed to the Cumans in Hungary from 12th-13th century ("Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350" , David C. Nicolle, N.Y.1988, p.534, #1462) which is similar to Khirghiz sabres of 10th-12th c. and not deeply curved, but single edged.
It is noted,"...used by one of the Kun, the name given to those Turkish Cuman, originally Peceneg tribes, who fled into Hungary and then settled in the area. For several centuries they retained a separate identity and maintained a nomadic, pastoral way of life comparable to that of the original Magyars. This long, slender sabre is a typical Turco-Mongol type of weapon, although the uncharacteristically long quillons may be a local development following the Kuns settlement in Hungary".

It is interesting to note in the same book (p.95, #240), "...a sword from Buzau, Wallachia 13th c., probably a German import. This region was dominated by Eurasian steppe nomads, Pecenegs and Cumans. This sword likely reached this area via the Hungarians who then ruled Transylvania".
The sword is a typical medieval broadsword, and is noted simply to demonstrate the congruent use of varied sword forms by same groups in close regions.

I think the Mongol attribution is often a generalization in referring to many of these tribal groups that moved westward into these regions, and many variations in semantics occur in describing them. For example, the Avars were actually Ruan-Ruan, etc. and many complexities!

Even more complex is the sabre development conundrum, but I think we have a running start at it in this discusson!

Best regards,
Jim

[Andrew]

Hello TVV,
Outstanding perspective on this extremely esoteric sector of history in the Eastern European/Balkan regions. The Pereshchepina sword is apparantly from the 7th century and was discovered near Poltava in the Ukraine in village of Malaja Pereshchepina in 1912. There was a very important article written on this sword in 1985 in Russia ("On the Principles of Reconstruction of the Pereshchepina Sword", Z.Lvova & A. Seminov, in Arkheologicesksya Sbornik, Vol.26). It was compared primarily to Avar swords found in Hungarian territory. Because the blade was single edged, there was considerable attention given to what term should be applied, and some confusion had resulted in earlier discussions because of the interpolation of the terms sword and sabre. The long narrow straight swords of the Huns are also mentioned (in other works these are termed 'urepos').

I think you are right in the idea that in degree military fashion did guage with changes in power as geopolitical and cultural fusion occurred in regions. What you say about the decline of curved sabres of Magyars is very interesting, and need to look more into that aspect.

From what I understand, the Cumans presence in Bulgaria came after the Mongol vassalage (1292-95) when two subsequent dynasties of Cuman origin evolved. By c.1340 this ended with Turkish invasions.The Turks ruled from 1396-1878. I did find a sabre attributed to the Cumans in Hungary from 12th-13th century ("Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350" , David C. Nicolle, N.Y.1988, p.534, #1462) which is similar to Khirghiz sabres of 10th-12th c. and not deeply curved, but single edged.
It is noted,"...used by one of the Kun, the name given to those Turkish Cuman, originally Peceneg tribes, who fled into Hungary and then settled in the area. For several centuries they retained a separate identity and maintained a nomadic, pastoral way of life comparable to that of the original Magyars. This long, slender sabre is a typical Turco-Mongol type of weapon, although the uncharacteristically long quillons may be a local development following the Kuns settlement in Hungary".

It is interesting to note in the same book (p.95, #240), "...a sword from Buzau, Wallachia 13th c., probably a German import. This region was dominated by Eurasian steppe nomads, Pecenegs and Cumans. This sword likely reached this area via the Hungarians who then ruled Transylvania".
The sword is a typical medieval broadsword, and is noted simply to demonstrate the congruent use of varied sword forms by same groups in close regions.

I think the Mongol attribution is often a generalization in referring to many of these tribal groups that moved westward into these regions, and many variations in semantics occur in describing them. For example, the Avars were actually Ruan-Ruan, etc. and many complexities!

Even more complex is the sabre development conundrum, but I think we have a running start at it in this discusson!

Best regards,
Jim

Another outstanding post, Jim. Good grief, man! You've been on a tear lately! ;)

[Radu Transylvanicus]

...(just watching an awesome development of this thread) ...
however : QUOTE Jim : ,,"...a sword from Buzau, Wallachia 13th c., probably a German import. This region was dominated by Eurasian steppe nomads, Pecenegs and Cumans"
... ahem , ahem ... easy there, tiger !

[TVV]

Radu: the control over the lands north of the Danube river in the period between 100 and 1300 AD is a fascinating topic, but if we are to tackle it, it would be perhaps only wise to do so from the perspective of this thread. It is certain that at one point there was a mixture of weapon styles in use in these lands, as one Byzantine chronicle (I am at work now, I will try to dig up the name of its author and its year later) states that the Pechenegs, after defeating Svetoslav's Varyags on their return from his second incursion in the Balkans, took their swrods and other weapons, which they valued much. So there were Pechenegs with Viking swords at one time (there are some distinctively Viking swords and scabbard chapes excavated in Bulgaria only to further illustrate the point).
Jim: the Cumans came to Bulgaria much earlier. Their troops were instrumental in the rebellion that led to the reestablishment of the Bulgarian State in the late 12th century, and also in the battle at Adrianopol in 1205, in which the Bulgarian Tzar Kaloyan (ok, ok, Radu, Tzar of Bulgarians and Wallachians by official title, but the Byzantine historians and the Pope referred to him as the ruler of Bulgaria) defeated the Crusaders who had just conquered Constantinople. Kaloyan himself was married to a Cuman woman, and later in the history of the Second Bulgarian Empire there were two Cuman dynasties (Terters and Shishmans). There is a legend from that period, which states that the Cumans were "the third part of the Bulgars". All this makes me believe that they were an ethnicity extremely similar to the Bulgars who initially came to the Balkans, before they mingled with the Slavs. Their presence on the Balkans was quite significant and prolonged. I think Rivkin mentioned in another thread that many of the Mameluks were of Cuman origin.
However, for the purpose of our topic, I do not know of any sabres from that period attributed to the Cumans, which is quite surprising, as their military consisted entirely of cavalry and the sabre would have suited their style of warfare perfectly. Perhaps I will need to ask friends of mine back in Bulgaria who are archeologists if they know something more. It is possible that some of their weapons are incorrectly attributed to the Mongols. In the capitol city of the Second Bulgarian Empire there have been excavated blacksmithing furnaces, and the metallurgy was well developped by German immigrants from the Rhine region, who produced swords of western style. It could be that the Cumans were simply assimilated in the Bulgarian state and that they adopted the locally produced straight bladed weapons. Of course, this is only a complete speculation on my part.

P.S. I promise to scan and post some pictures later on today. Jim, could you also post the sabre that is attributed to the Cumans?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Andrew,
Thank you for the kind note! :rolleyes:

Yes I have been on a tear! The piles of books in here are getting dangerous, but I get a bit berserk when a good discussion starts a quest.

Radu,
Thanks for the observation, I felt pretty safe noting Nicolle's statement with the quotation marks :) I know this is your turf, so always appreciate any observations that might correct any errors or broad assumptions. The topic you've brought up on this thread is a good one, and the development of swords in these regions is key to understanding many ethnographic sabre forms.

TVV,
The Cuman sabre (noted as Hungarian in the drawing in the book as noted in reference) is not very cooperative in being scanned ( this thing never works right anyway :mad: ). These line drawings are not the best representation of these weapons, but simply give a reasonable impression (much like the police artist for identifying suspects).
The complexities of discussing the tribal movements through these regions and the semantics in thier names alone is most confusing, but as we seem to agree, most important in trying to establish the swords of choice among them. I think you are right in presuming assimilation of Cumans into Bulgarian state, but unclear on which time period we mean. This is another confounding factor in studying these tribal peoples, the constant diffusion and assimilation into other groups. In some references it is implied that the Avars 'simply disappeared' , in one reference the expression "gone like the Avars" was used. Like many tribal groups, many assimilated into other larger groups rather than 'disappearing'.

Really enjoying this discussion guys!!! Thank you!!!

All the best,
Jim

[tom hyle]

This one just grew and grew, but I've finally read it all. Very interesting, all. A few notes:

Falchions often have curved spines, and are commonly thought to be derived from scramasax/longsax. Germans are more Eastern than Celts, and always have been though; Slavs more Eastern yet. This seems pretty directly sensical.

Estocs ARE lance-swords; basically shortish spears constructed as swords, often or even usually incapable of cutting. This is my view on smallsword, etc. as well. Rapier per se is debatable, being a very capable cutting weapon in its early forms.

Do you really think the "grip strap" of modern sabres evolved as an extension of the pommel? Do you have transitional examples? Don't you think it's a version of a tang-band?

To me it seems that the distinctly Western European evolution of the sabre is to bring the point back in line with the hilt, rather than trailing it behind, as on Tartaric ("true"?) sabres, and in effect combining sabre and estoc in a single weapon, or attempting so to do.

[Jim McDougall]

Whenever I think of falchions I cannot resist thinking immediately of the much discussed 'Conyers falchion' in Durham Cathedral in England. This is the form I describe primarily with the straight back and hugely widened cleaver type blade. Claude Blair describes this on p.83 of his "European and American Arms" as of c.1260-70 (illustrated fig. 21).

Frederick Wilkinson ("Edged Weapons", N.Y.1970, p.32) notes, "...these swords seem to have appeared during the 13th century; they were single edged weapons loosely related to the old Saxon seax or scramasax, with a blade initially fairly straight. In order to increase the cutting power the blade widened near the point in much the same way as the 'seax'. The blade was later modified and from a short distance from the point the back edge of the blade was cut out to give a slightly hooked appearance to the end of the blade. From the late 14th and early 15th centuries the blade became more curved, and in the late 16th-early 17th c. many infantry, particularly in Northern Europe carried a slightly curved falchion".

These heavy and most slightly curved examples illustrated in Wilkinson (fig. 22 and 23) both noted as early 17th c and both German, as well as another English (fig.74) c.1620 same slight curve in the blade.These also feature the so called "clipped point" that became well known later on 18th c. German sabre blades and many straight cavalry blades of 18th c. (in this case I am thinking of British dragoon swords c.1760-70's).

In "Lore of Arms" by William Reid (Gothenburg,1976, p.40-42) the author notes that curved swords were common in Eastern Europe in the middle ages, but in the west "...the only medieval form known is the falchion. By c.1200 some soldiers were carrying a sword with a short broad blade, single edged, widest towards the point and with a more or less convex cutting edge. The surviving examples can be classified as having either a blade which resembles the Levantine 'kilic' or a straight back".

It would appear that the earliest form of falchion was of the 'Conyers' type, with distinctly straight back and widened convex curved cutting edge. In "The Archaeology of Weapons" ( 1960,p.238), Ewart Oakeshott adds to his description of the Conyers falchion, the single edged sword which is known as the 'Thorpe falchion' (Castle Museum, Norwich). This is an example that seems more in line with the later examples as it is "...very similar to a sabre blade. How this blade form developed is not clear; we rarely see it before about 1290, and it seems to have no direct kinship, like the Durham type,with the old Norwegian long sax. It may have developed under an Eastern European influence, for it is very closely akin to the Sword of Charlemagne-the Hungarian one-in Vienna, a type which had been in use in Eastern Europe since the 9th c.Whatever the origin of its particular form, as a falchion it is still a descendant of the sax, the Greek kopis and the ancient Egyptian khopsh, and its form remained in use from the early 14th c. till the mid eighteenth, with modifications, while the Durham (Conyers) form is seen no more after about 1300."

This 'Thorpe' form is basically straight, single edged and with the clipped point (often termed false edge). This is the blade form described in the later falchions mentioned from Wilkinson (op.cit.).

The reason I have put together this data on falchions is that it is important to note the concurrent use of both straight heavy swords as well as developing forms of cutting or slashing swords, with the form evolving in the west the falchion. It is noted that in Eastern Europe and in the Islamic sphere that both straight swords and sabres were used, and we have noted that even among the early nomadic tribal groups both straight forms and developing curved blades were used. The evolution of the curved blade was likely extremely subtle as the single edged blade was given features that would correspond to the dynamics of its use, primarily of course optimum cutting potential.

The early falchions reflected such change in looking essentially the same as the knightly broadsword, with simple cross hilt and a straight black blade that simply widened on the cutting edge for improved cutting power in chopping type cuts.

Best regards,]
Jim

[tom hyle]

Do you really think the "grip strap" of modern sabres evolved as an extension of the pommel? Do you have transitional examples? Don't you think it's a version of a tang-band?



I've seen sabres with a cap pommel and a kind of short tab coming down along the "spine" edge of the handle, but I think they've all been later ones, and I always thought it was a vestigial grip strap, rather than an evolution toward one?

[Mike Cudzich-Madry]

In the mid 17th century the butt-plate started extending all the way to the quillions (photo 17) making the metallic assembly of the hilt look like a one piece solid completely enclosed protection , a style so different from the incipient scimitar montures.
Worth mentioning is that up to 17th century (some parts even later) many cavalry trooper carried a secondary weapon, an oversized straight long sword named kontchar (a term that not 100% safe to use but scholars tend to nowadays) used to pierce chainmail and breech trough enemy lines, which proved less convenient than the classic lance; the lance was a weapon almost forgotten by the cavalry of western Europe in the 17th and 18th century until the amazing grace and force of Polish uhlans (lancers) amazed Napoleon and immediately reintroduced them lasting one more good one hundred years.
Another improvement of the hilt is the use of ray, shark (photo 20) or other similar skins that provide superior grip in battle or the use of wire wrap over leather providing similar qualities, the last being encountered before in Europe and therefore not completely new.
That is the beginning of the ,,epee a la Hussarde,, or Hussar style saber (photo 19) who was adopted quickly by all most powerful armies of Europe from Hungarian by Austrians then Prussian, French and British and ended up glorified by the Napoleonian Era wars (photo 20) and in the 18th century it ceased to be ,, Hungaro-Polish,, and it became the European curved saber hence its mainstream adoption as it started expanding west via the armies of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and its conflicts in the 17th century and culminating with the ever popular sabers of ,,Blucher,, type (see photo 21) which are nothing but ,,epee a la Hussarde,, , a Hussar saber.


It is the 1796 LC Sabre! It may be called a "Blucher" in the rest of Europe, but it was adopted by the Prussians under General Blucher only after seeing it in the hands of the British and the British Monarch's Hanoverian troops ("The King's German Legion").

It was designed by Captain Marchant as the 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre from inspiration gained on his travels "East". For some reason this is always taken to be India and the Indian Tulwar but the only Tulwars that look like a 1796 are 1796 blades with Tulwar Hilts used by some Indian Cavalry regiments well in to the 19th Century at the time of the British Raj. It is known that Captain Marchant went to Hungary, and since Poland had ceased to exist by that time, he may have also been to Austrian 'Poland'; these seems more the places that he would have visted when the whole of Europe was fascinated by everything Hussar! I have been convinced myself when seeing Hussaria Sabres in Poland that the 1796 had taken these sabres of 150 years before as its inspiration.

Well presented Radu.

Mike ;)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ~ This is a stunning thread so Bump ! :shrug:

[fspic]

RADU, :) :cool: "...
Wolviex With a friend like Radu you cannot go wrong. :)
Gene
Yes, but what if he invites you over to see his swords and bites you on the neck?

[fspic]

I have two sabers which fall into the design type discussed here. One is a longer classic Polish/Hungarian/Turkish type with multiple fullers and a Polish wooden bird's head grip. The tip is more upswept blunt rather than pointed. By this time is rather thin from centuries of honing and polishing.

The other blade is close to the late classical Blucher type referenced above and shown as item 12. in one of the color and monochrome illustrations. However it has several trefoil dot stamps which are often found on German or Dutch blades of the 17th century and earlier. Also the half-moon jagged edge marks with stars. This mark is found on some swords made in India but whether it was copied from European style marking I don't know. There is a single broad fuller. The grip is a nice old closed knuckle guard type with fine broad flowery koftgari. How these two came together is anyone's guess given the age and exchange or modification of swords.

As regards the trefoil marks I do have a now straight and flat European blade said to be sixteenth century or older which the seller said was once a much wider blade with a fullered section ground off. It has an Indian tulwar grip of 17th century form. The blade does have a flexible "spring" to it which someone said confirms it is of likely German origin as Indians or anyone else in the region didn't produce blades with that characteristic.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I have two sabers which fall into the design type discussed here. One is a longer classic Polish/Hungarian/Turkish type with multiple fullers and a Polish wooden bird's head grip. The tip is more upswept blunt rather than pointed. By this time is rather thin from centuries of honing and polishing.

The other blade is close to the late classical Blucher type referenced above and shown as item 12. in one of the color and monochrome illustrations. However it has several trefoil dot stamps which are often found on German or Dutch blades of the 17th century and earlier. Also the half-moon jagged edge marks with stars. This mark is found on some swords made in India but whether it was copied from European style marking I don't know. There is a single broad fuller. The grip is a nice old closed knuckle guard type with fine broad flowery koftgari. How these two came together is anyone's guess given the age and exchange or modification of swords.

As regards the trefoil marks I do have a now straight and flat European blade said to be sixteenth century or older which the seller said was once a much wider blade with a fullered section ground off. It has an Indian tulwar grip of 17th century form. The blade does have a flexible "spring" to it which someone said confirms it is of likely German origin as Indians or anyone else in the region didn't produce blades with that characteristic.

Salaams fspic ~ Great ! ... Please show us some pictures... :D Shukran..
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[kronckew]

interesting. i especially liked the bit about the estoc as a lance replacement.

the british 1908 and the american 1913 cavalry swords, the last issue swords designed for actual battle use, were pure thrusting weapons, specifically designed to have about the same reach as a lance. the curved sabres of the past were gone forever.

in the early stages of ww1, a british cavalry patrol equipped with said swords, met a german uhlan patrol equipped with lances in one of the last, if not THE last pure cavalry engagements with edged weapons. the germans were soundly defeated. this in part due to the germans being from a newly recruited and barely trained regiment. they of course were pursued by the british, who were stopped dead by a humble farmer's fence across the field. it was of three strands of barbed wire. a prophetic end to the cavalry charge. horses were of course used in the rest of ww1 for pulling wagons and artillery, and were used more successfully in the open middle east, but the day of the edged weapon as a primary cavalry arm were over.

there were persisant rumors of polish lancers attacking german armour while on horseback with lances in ww2. never happened. poles were not that dumb. the lancers did oppose the german armour but not in vain cavalry charges, they used their rifles and light machine guns & anti-tank weapons from cover like any sane person. sadly they were not enough. the horses and lances were parade items, much like the present day canadian mounties. there was, however a successful charge against german infantry, supported by machine guns, etc...

Polish Cavalry Charge ww2 (http://www.polishnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=404%3Alast-great-charge-of-the-polish-cavalry&catid=93%3Ahistoriapolish-history&Itemid=329)

horse were used extensively in ww2, mostly by the germans, again for supply wagons and artillery, but the innovation of the american jeep 4wd put paid to even that.

cavalry with lance, sword, sabre, or estoc is now the field of the collector and scholar, and no longer that of the military.

that is where we come in. keeping history living...

[Jim McDougall]

Yes, but what if he invites you over to see his swords and bites you on the neck?

Cute :) but these kinds of comments better placed on Facebook. Glad to see you move on to more useful material, and I too would like to see photos of your sabres.
By your description, the East European form and note on 'birds head' hilt, do you mean smooth pommel or trilobate 'karabela' form?
Good stuff on the 'Bluchersabel' which is indeed the Prussian M1811 interpretation of the British M1796 light cavalry sabre. Actually the production of these seem well placed as Solingen had already been supplying the British with blades for thier sabres from the 1788 patterns through the 1796 along with other blade types, and the implementation of the hilt was in league with other European forms of these times.

The 'trefoil' dot marks and the jagged half moon marks I would suppose to be the well known 'sickle marks' which evolved presumably from North Italy into trade entrepots widely, and were adopted by blade making centers in Styria, Hungary, Poland and of course Germany. They also became the 'gurda' in the blades of the Caucusus, also later widely exported.
These marks were indeed copied in degree in India, especially northern regions where they occur consistantly on the Afghan 'paluoar' form of sabre, but to the south many, if not most of the straight blades have these marks on the 'firangi' (foreign' ) blades. Again, later many blades received these type marks to emulate the much favored European blades marks.
As far as known, most of the Dutch blades came from Germany, however numbers of Solingen smiths went there to work. I am not aware of significant presence of these sickle marks on swords with Dutch provenance, however with trade blades there certainly may have been some. Most Dutch markings have varying other characteristics.
Well noted on the flexibility issue, and indeed India did have some issues regarding brittle nature of some of thier products, leading to the favor of the European blades.


Kronckew, well said!!!
The use of the lance in combat was indeed a skill which required considerable training, and ill trained troops using them were more of a liability than asset, often more dangerous to themselves and each other. In close quarters of course there were not only awkward obviously, but a completely useless encumbrance. The German lances (of hollow steel shafts rather than wood) were well over 10 feet long.
The M1913 'Patton' cavalry sword, while being declared one of the finest swords ever designed (obviously with nods to the British M1908) was never actually used in combat as far as recorded in references. The British M1908 swords were however used in the Middle East theater in WWI, where they were called 'Allenby' swords for the British commanding general.
One of the best accounts of these is in James Lunt's "Charge to Glory".

The old nonsense about Polish lancers charging German tanks with these was of course primarily German propoganda, and as noted, never actually happened. These cavalrymen, true to thier powerful heritage from the centuries of Polish lancers who had fought with outstanding valor did fight bravely against thier foe using the conventional weapons of the time.

There are many instances of cavalry charges said to be 'the last' up into WWII, where a British regiment I believe in Burma charged against emplaced Japanese units, however with dismal outcome due to machine gun fire. I have often spoken of the British brigadier who led one of the last mounted cavalry charges in India in 1931 on plains in Khyber regions, and who showed me the M1913 officers sword he carried.

The study of these weapons and events is indeed where we come in, and together we will preserve this valuable history.

Nicely done guys! and Ibrahiim, thank you so much for bringing this one back!!! :)

All the best,
Jim

[Rick]

I don't know, Jim; I have a very flexible fine grained wootz Indian sabre at hand here in the armory; almost a straight blade . :)

They were not all bad . ;)

[Rick]

Salaams fspic ~ Great ! ... Please show us some pictures... :D Shukran..
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Agree ! :)
Please upload some pictures .

[Jim McDougall]

I don't know, Jim; I have a very flexible fine grained wootz Indian sabre at hand here in the armory; almost a straight blade . :)

They were not all bad . ;)


Good call Rick, and I hoped my comment didnt sound too 'inflexible' :) (pun intended) by qualifying the word 'some' with regard to Indian blades. I hope I can find the reference concerning this dilemma, may have been either Pant or Elgood. There was a quote included regarding the Indian favor of 'firangi' blades resulting in the large volume of them coming into Indian regions which included the disdain for British blades claiming they were 'unfit to cut even butter with'. Apparantly whatever issues were at hand with Indian blades was resolved and actually it does seem that in most times they were held in extremely high esteem, especially in Arabia where the flex of a blade was a keenly observed feature. There are of course blades in India which indeed were even wrapped around ones body almost as a belt.

You have some great stuff in that 'armoury' of yours!!! :)

All the best,
Jim