Pattani Naga Keris

[Greybeard]

Hello all,

Pattanese naga keris usually appear to be crudely and cheaply made, and they are of obvious recent manufacture. Are those Pattani naga keris newer creations in order to satisfy a tourist market? Do old good quality Pattanese naga pieces exist as well? If so, what are the characteristics?

Regards,

Heinz

[Alam Shah]

.. Pattanese naga keris usually appear to be crudely and cheaply made, and they are of obvious recent manufacture. Are those Pattani naga keris newer creations in order to satisfy a tourist market? Do old good quality Pattanese naga pieces exist as well? If so, what are the characteristics?.. HeinzYes, it does exist. However, the quantity is not many. It is lightweight and sports a straight blade.. the naga head sports a specific form, different from the other various naga forms..
:)

[Greybeard]

Hello Alam Shah

Thank you for your reply. I think I have seen the naga keris form you refer to in another keris discussion forum ("hanggoye"). Unfortunately, I cannot follow that discussion for language reason, but I have quite wondered about the straight blade since I thought that naga keris always have curved blades ...

The reason I ask about Pattanese naga keris is that I have been offered an old (or at least old looking) "Naga Timbul" 13 luk keris which is -- in my opinion -- quite similar in appearance and condition to the straight naga keris shown in the other forum (except for the luk, of course).

Best regards,

Heinz

[BluErf]

I had the good fortune of seeing a number of serious keris collections in Kelantan/Terengganu, and I have not seen any Pattani naga kerises in those collections. We are talking about the best of the best N. Malayan keris collections. However, I did see quite a few kerises with Singa, and some allegedly Hanuman kerises. The collectors distinguish Hanuman from the Singa through the posture and body shape. And of course, the unduk-unduk (river horses) keris.

If they exist, old Pattani Naga kerises would be quite rare indeed.

[BluErf]

Hello Alam Shah

Thank you for your reply. I think I have seen the naga keris form you refer to in another keris discussion forum ("hanggoye"). Unfortunately, I cannot follow that discussion for language reason, but I have quite wondered about the straight blade since I thought that naga keris always have curved blades ...

The reason I ask about Pattanese naga keris is that I have been offered an old (or at least old looking) "Naga Timbul" 13 luk keris which is -- in my opinion -- quite similar in appearance and condition to the straight naga keris shown in the other forum (except for the luk, of course).

Best regards,

Heinz

Though not an absolute rule, N. Malayan kerises generally stop at 9 waves. So be careful about 13 waved N. Malayan kerises. :)

[Greybeard]

Hello BluErf

Seems that in this case all those crude Pattanese naga keris we sometimes see in this forum or offered on ebay are new creations without traditional "forerunners" ...

Regards,

Heinz

[Alam Shah]

.. If they exist, old Pattani Naga kerises would be quite rare indeed.Indeed, they are.. the thing about these kerises is that, it's existence is not documented. Difficult to benchmark. Even serious collectors up north, may not know or unwilling to collect them (hefty price). It could probably be found upper north in Pattani, Yala, Narathiwat provinces.

There are a few who have these.. the naga form is identical in all the examples. However, I do not have their permission to post here, sorry. :o

[Alam Shah]

.. The reason I ask about Pattanese naga keris is that I have been offered an old (or at least old looking) "Naga Timbul" 13 luk keris which is -- in my opinion -- quite similar in appearance and condition to the straight naga keris shown in the other forum (except for the luk, of course).
Like Blu Erf suggests, caveat emptor.. perhaps a picture of the blade might assist in identifying the form.. :)

[Greybeard]

Alam Shah, BluErf

I really appreciate your valuable information! I know next to nothing about Malay keris, because I normally limit my keris collecting to Javanese pieces.

It`s new to me (and important to know) that Northern Malay keris usually don`t have luk higher than nine. It`s really a pity that I cannot provide pictures. The keris in question is overall very Javanese in appearance, with a very wavy (rengkol) 13-luk blade. Even the hilt/scabbard are in Javanese Surakarta style ...

The feature that let me think of a Pattanese keris consists of the naga`s head which is simply executed, without much detail, but not really crude. The beard underneath the naga`s head forms a perfect round hole in the gandik. The pictures of a very similar naga`s head were posted by Mans on March 2, 2005 (thread "Is this a Javanese blade?" by BluErf).

And finally: What does "Naga Timbul" (seller`s designation) mean? A Google search lead me to some quite ugly tourist type "naga keris", offered on ebay, which indeed sport the same naga`s head as mine, but these are a whole lot cruder ...

Well, I could not resist. I like this keris, and in the meantime I purchased it. I just hope I bought a good one ...

Many thanks again for your help and best regards from (at the present) hot Switzerland,

Heinz

[David]

The keris in question is overall very Javanese in appearance, with a very wavy (rengkol) 13-luk blade. Even the hilt/scabbard are in Javanese Surakarta style ...
Well Heinz, it sounds to me like you may have bought yourself a Javanese keris after all.
Here is the link to the thread BluErf posted back in 2005. Links are always helpful. ;) :)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=369&highlight=javanese+blade

[Greybeard]

Hi David

Thank you for the link. Yes, the old threads are very helpful; I`ve printed out a lot of them.

I agree that I`ve probably bought a Javanese naga piece -- which is just fine since I primarily collect Javanese keris.

Regards,

Heinz

[PenangsangII]

the keris in question is an "owah-owahan" naga..... IMHO, the naga was made recently although the keris is quite old

[Greybeard]

Hi PenangsangII

An altered keris? Why not: This was my first thought, too, when I saw the pictures provided by the seller. But on the other hand, it`s always difficult to form an opinion by photos alone ...

Well, the keris will probably arrive here next week, then I will see ... I would certainly prefer an all-original old naga keris, but these are very rare (and very expensive), I think.

Thanks and regards,

Heinz

[David]

the keris in question is an "owah-owahan" naga..... IMHO, the naga was made recently although the keris is quite old
I'm sorry, did i miss something? Have images of this keris been shown somewhere or do you have personal knowledge of this piece?

[Greybeard]

Actually, I`m wondering about the same thing ...

Heinz

[PenangsangII]

the keris in question was discussed in an open forum last year. I personally know most of the forumites in that Malay forum (not exactly a forum, but a forum-like websites, i.e multiply.com). Though there were many opinions regarding the "pattani naga blade", me and some friends (a keris group) concluded among ourselves that the naga was carved more recently (and crudely done at that) whilst the blade may have some age to it.... hope my post does not ruffle any feathers...... I am quite vocal that many Malaysian keris collecters, esp those who have vested interests (collecters cum keris sellers/ vendors) despise what ever my keris group represents

[David]

the keris in question was discussed in an open forum last year. I personally know most of the forumites in that Malay forum (not exactly a forum, but a forum-like websites, i.e multiply.com). Though there were many opinions regarding the "pattani naga blade", me and some friends (a keris group) concluded among ourselves that the naga was carved more recently (and crudely done at that) whilst the blade may have some age to it.... hope my post does not ruffle any feathers...... I am quite vocal that many Malaysian keris collecters, esp those who have vested interests (collecters cum keris sellers/ vendors) despise what ever my keris group represents
Sorry, my confusion continues. How is it that you know that the keris Heinz has pruchased is this same keris that was discussed in in this Malay forum?

[Greybeard]

Hi David, hi Penangsang,

I must admit that I`m confused, too!

Penangsang, it`s amazing that you are able to identify my keris as the one discussed in the other forum, just by my vague description!

All I have thus far are pictures of small size, provided by the seller, showing an old looking keris with a simple, but IMO not really crude naga. The keris was offered as "Naga Timbul" (whatever dapur this may be), but not as "Pattani Naga Keris".

Well, the keris should arrive soon. With the keris in hand, I`ll probably be able to tell more ...

Regards,

Heinz

[PenangsangII]

Hi Heinz and David.....

Sorry so much to cause both of you the confusion.... I was actually referring to the Malay forum where the naga pattani was discussed as I was also actively involved in the discussion. Heinz's keris could actually a different one, and I have no knowledge of the seller either. Again, sorry for the confusion due to my bad English understanding.

[Greybeard]

Hello Penangsang

Thank you for your clarification. Yes, different languages can sometimes be a problem. My native language is German, and I sometimes find it rather difficult to express myself clearly in English.

Well, my keris will arrive soon. Then I`ll see what I`ve bought.

Best regards,

Heinz

[Greybeard]

Dear Penangsang

In the "Multiply" forum (November 2008) I found a Malay discussion regarding a Naga Pattani keris. Could this be the discussion you are refering to? If so, the "mystery" is solved: The keris in that discussion (straight blade) and my keris (13-luk blade) are definitively not identical! Furthermore, the naga`s style is not the same.

Best regards,

Heinz

[Greybeard]

My Naga keris finally arrived. Its overall appearance and my feeling tell me it`s old and original. But who knows ... Anyway, I like it a lot!

Regards,

Heinz

[David]

Will you be posting any photos of it? :)

[Greybeard]

Hello David

I would really like to post pictures, not only of this Naga keris but also of several other keris I own. But before I can do this, I need to buy a good camera, a new computer and -- last but not least -- I need to learn how to take decent photos (something that I`ve never been able to manage so
far ...). Well, maybe a friend can help out.

Have a nice weekend. Regards,

Heinz

[Gustav]

Dear All,

your comments on this one are most welcome, becouse I have not any experience with this kind of keris at all.

[David]

Well Heinz, it sounds to me like you may have bought yourself a Javanese keris after all.
Here is the link to the thread BluErf posted back in 2005. Links are always helpful. ;) :)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=369&highlight=javanese+blade
Now that i have actually seen this keris i do not think that it's origins are Jawa. :)

[Alam Shah]

Dear All,

your comments on this one are most welcome, becouse I have not any experience with this kind of keris at all.Nice and unique keris form, congratulations :D .. although the naga worksmanship is no where near javanese naga.. it's simple form does compliment the blade in it's simplicity.. I like it.. :)

I've seen this naga form before, with bugis fittings..
Any idea what the three leaf near the head of the 'naga' represents?

[Greybeard]

Now that i have actually seen this keris i do not think that it's origins are Jawa. :)

Hi David

The pictures above are posted by Gustav, not by me. Gustav`s keris is absolutely different from mine -- mine has 13 luk and is all over Javanese in appearance, including its dress.

Gustav, your keris is very nice; I like it!

Regards,

Heinz

[David]

Hi David

The pictures above are posted by Gustav, not by me. Gustav`s keris is absolutely different from mine -- mine has 13 luk and is all over Javanese in appearance, including its dress.

Gustav, your keris is very nice; I like it!

Regards,

Heinz
Sorry, my bad, i look quickly, saw it was from a poster whose name began with "G" and made the wrong assumption.
I would still like to see yours someday Heinz if you ever get the technology to post it.
Interesting blade Gustav. Where do you think it is from?

[Greybeard]

No need to be sorry, David.

I can well understand that you would like to see pictures of my Naga keris, and I would like to show it as well. But I`m sure that I`ll be able to post pictures in the near future.

Best regards,

Heinz

[Gustav]

Alam Shah, Greybeard and David, thank you for the comments :)

David, I have really no experience with this. I thought, it would be a peninsular keris.

[Jentayu]

Hi Gustav, it is indeed a very nice keris naga bugis, you got there. It has all the features of naga that is almost similiar to mine with the distinctive 3 "clove of leaves" on top the naga head. Congrats

[BluErf]

Are the blades tempered (sepuhan)? for such Bugis type blades with no pamor, the temper mark shd be fairly obvious.

[Gustav]

Hello Jentayu, thank you, also for posting your very nice and interesting keris for comparison. May I ask what is the estimation of age for your keris?

About "leaves" on the head of Naga - if there are no meanings - they could be also feathers.

[BluErf]

Btw, from the dress and hilt, these do not look like peninsula kerises.

[BluErf]

Likely to be Sulawesi, judging from the bulge in Gustav's keris sheath, and hilt.

[David]

Likely to be Sulawesi, judging from the bulge in Gustav's keris sheath, and hilt.
Sumatra was going to be my guess on Gustav's keris based on the style of the greneng, but i wouldn't place a bet on that. :)
As i know many of us are already aware, dress does not necessarily reveal the origin of the blade itself.

[Gustav]

Hello Blu Erf,

could such greneng be expected from Sulawesi?

[Gustav]

I am always to late with my posts ... I need so much time to write on english :)

[BluErf]

Sumatra was going to be my guess on Gustav's keris based on the style of the greneng, but i wouldn't place a bet on that. :)
As i know many of us are already aware, dress does not necessarily reveal the origin of the blade itself.

I cannot form any opinion about the blade... :p

[BluErf]

Hello Blu Erf,

could such greneng be expected from Sulawesi?

Sulawesi kerises tend to have bigger greneng. The one on your blade is unusual for Sulawesi. I've seen some of these keris blades attributed to Sumbawa, but then again, this is not verifiable. :)

[BluErf]

But the question I'm interested in is whether the blades are tempered. :)

[David]

I based my observation on a Sumatra blade that i have that has very similar greneng both in form and size. I have rarely seen greneng on Sulawesi keris at all. :shrug: :)

[Jentayu]

Hello Jentayu, thank you, also for posting your very nice and interesting keris for comparison. May I ask what is the estimation of age for your keris?

About "leaves" on the head of Naga - if there are no meanings - they could be also feathers.

It is quite subjective to put dates on kerises, Gustav. Yup those thing above the naga head could also be feathers.....I guess if anyone out there who knows about what they are and the symbolic importance it has on keris naga bugis; would you like to share it with us?

[Gustav]

Blu Erf,

there is no temper mark on my blade.

[BluErf]

I based my observation on a Sumatra blade that i have that has very similar greneng both in form and size. I have rarely seen greneng on Sulawesi keris at all. :shrug: :)

I sold both my Sulawesi kerises with greneng. But I know my friend still has his. :) Something like this example is quite typical.

http://tengkurizan.fotopic.net/c1074306.html

[Gustav]

Blu Erf,

the keris from Tengkurizan collection is descripted as Riau Bugis, but you are wright, such greneng recalls a "Sumbawa feeling". Is the hilt probably Banjarmasin?

[Gustav]

In any case, the greneng on my keris seems to be smaller then every bugis I have seen... :shrug:

[BluErf]

Ah yes, I didn't notice the description :) But I've not really seen such kerises from the Riau region. :)

I do not know where the hilt comes from.

[David]

I sold both my Sulawesi kerises with greneng. But I know my friend still has his. :) Something like this example is quite typical.

http://tengkurizan.fotopic.net/c1074306.html
But even if this were a "typical" example you must admit that it is not really all that "common" to find greneng on Sulawesi keris.
And it is nothing like Gustav's example so i am curious why you think his keris is from Sulawesi. Is this just based on the dress form?

[BluErf]

But even if this were a "typical" example you must admit that it is not really all that "common" to find greneng on Sulawesi keris.
And it is nothing like Gustav's example so i am curious why you think his keris is from Sulawesi. Is this just based on the dress form?

Yep, based on the dress. I have no idea about the blade, really...

[Greybeard]

Now I can post some pictures of my Naga (Seluman?) keris -- old or recently
Maduran made?

Heinz

[ganjawulung]

Now I can post some pictures of my Naga (Seluman?) keris -- old or recently
Maduran made?

Yes, Naga Siluman (you may spell it too as 'seluman', although the correct spelling is 'siluman') Luk Tigabelas (13 luks). But surely, this is a javanese naga, I don't think it is Pattani.

Usually we count the luks, because the common Naga Siluman comes with 7 luks. But some Naga Siluman has possibility to have 9 and 11 luks too. Even yours is 13 luks. As does "carita" dhapur which usually 11 luks but some caritas also possible to have 15 luks (carita buntala) and 17 luks (carita kalenthang).
In daily chat among collectors in Jawa, this type of naga ornaments we call it as "naga primitif" (primitive naga), simple naga ornament. And the disappearing of the naga body -- we call it "naga siluman", invisible naga...

Could be old, could be recently made, it depends on the real keris in hand. I have the similar primitive naga, but not in keris size. Only palm-sized keris, or small patrem (pictures below), an amulet type of keris with rough naga carving...

GANJAWULUNG

[Greybeard]

Hello Ganjawulung

Naga Siluman or Naga Seluman -- I'm aware of both terms, but I never knew which is the correct one. Thank you for clarification. Then I have a keris
Naga Siluman with "too many luk" ...

My 5-luk "Jimat" keris (length of the blade without pesi: 11 cm) shows the same style of "Naga primitive". Interestingly, when looking at this relief upside-down there seems to be a human face in profile ...

Regards,

Heinz

[ganjawulung]

Naga Siluman or Naga Seluman -- I'm aware of both terms, but I never knew which is the correct one. Thank you for clarification. Then I have a keris Naga Siluman with "too many luk" ...
No Heinz, I don't think 13 luks are too many for javanese keris. The number of luks in javanese kerises commonly until 13. And from 15 luks or more, we call it as "keris kalawija" or anomali kerises, and does exist. Dhapur of Naga Sasra, Naga Lare and Naga Penganten also comes with 13 luks. It is still common, Naga dhapur with 13 luks...
My 5-luk "Jimat" keris (length of the blade without pesi: 11 cm) shows the same style of "Naga primitive". Interestingly, when looking at this relief upside-down there seems to be a human face in profile ..
The primitive motif of this old cundrik -- a variant of sajen kerises -- also reminds me of the primitive motif of Naga. Or human head, under the Puthut? Just for comparison...

GANJAWULUNG

[Greybeard]

The primitive motif of this old cundrik -- a variant of sajen kerises -- also reminds me of the primitive motif of Naga. Or human head, under the Puthut?
GANJAWULUNG

Very interesting! I wonder if this Naga type (or human head) has a special magical meaning or purpose.

Heinz